Manage episode 240262129 series 1923852
- How does the 24toDouble guarantee work after 24 months?
- Sometimes you say this is a Church Growth program, and sometimes you say it isn’t —that it’s a Whole Church Discipleship Model. Which is it?
- We normally do an annually BBQ, and this year it will be outside. What is your advice to make this a huge success and have great follow-up?
- Text In Church
- Is it okay to change some of the terminology that 24toDouble uses to something that is less confusing to my church?
- I have a team of decision makers already. How would they fit into the Five-Fold Leadership?
Hey pastors this is Richard Chancy. I've got Jerry Lawson on the line with us today. Hey, thank you, thank you, thank you. It's the middle of the summer, this is going to be a thinly-tended, attended event today, so if you've got a burning question, *6 on your phone. We've got somebody in there already from New Zealand. How cool is that? If you got a question *6. Today is the day to ask. We're probably going to have less than 25 of you on today and so, if you're the type of person that normally just sits back and listen, hey, jump in today. Jerry, thanks so much for being with us. Jerry had a story he wanted to share with us right off the bat. So, Jerry, take it away. Yeah, yeah good to have you guys on here. Just as Richard said, you could be doing something else, it's the dog days of summer, but you're here on board and that says something about you as a leader, and says something about your internal makeup, you know, so we're going to promise to add value to your time, make sure that we offer something that is good for you. So, whatever your questions are, they could be procedural about 24toDouble. But they could also be about five-fold leadership in general or about church leading so we want to hear that. We'll give you our best answers but, yeah. Richard said something when we first got on the call just a few minute ago that made me think of a story and I think maybe the story's for someone today. It's ... it goes ways back in my story, but it was in the glory ... what I affectionately call the Glory Hill days. This, you know, most people think DayStar Church was church plant, and it was, in legal terms. We shut down an older, established, really small church and rebooted as a new church. But, it's kind of more like a church revitalization story than that in terms of how it felt and so when I first came to this church, I didn't know if I was going to stay. I didn't know that it was going to be transformed into DayStar Church. It was just Glory Hill Church of God. It was very backwards. It was small. The building was about 60=years old. It's, you know, about three inches of water sat in the basement every time it rained. And by the way, the basement is where every Sunday school class and my office was, so, we're not talking about storage space getting wet. Smelled like it had been, you know, routinely flooded. Just not a great situation and I had left a large church in a large city as Associate Pastor in kind of a slash role, you know, a lot of different position there but they loved me. They wanted me so ... just wanted me to stay. They were crying when I left and, you know, I guess I maybe had this idea that when I came to this small town, this small church, it was quite a concession that I made. God spoke to me. I felt sure I was supposed to do it and I expected, kind of, to be applauded for it. I felt like I was, maybe, a higher quality of leader than they were used to and that they would recognize that immediately and things would start to change and, that was naivety and probably, you know, a little arrogance but it didn't. It didn't start to change. The church didn't grow immediately. The building ... you know, we went about a year and a half, saw very little growth. The building was just confining us. The name, the history of the church, the location ... we just had so much going against us and I remember, I remember those early days of just wanting and hoping and thinking something was going to change and, and just nothing changed. I remember thinking back to, you know, when ... when I got there, I would think back to how the church I had left loved me and wanted me. You know, my first Sunday there at Glory Hill, no one took me out to lunch. There was no welcome reception. I literally stood at the back door, shook hands like you do in a traditional southern church, and shook everyone's hand and when they all left, that was it! No one locked the doors or turned out the lights. I mean, it was so weird and just so backwards and, and I just kept thinking, man, we, you know, we just don't belong here. This is not right and I had a what we call in the south a come to Jesus moment, you know, where just Jesus spoke to me in a powerful way and He said Jerry, you know, you are acting as those these people don't deserve you but from Heaven, it looks like you don't deserve them. This is your opportunity. These are people. Real people created in the image of God and, you know, you've got the wrong attitude like your better than them, like you're better than this town and that you, you know, should be somewhere else but you don't deserve anywhere else. You don't even deserve this place and I, I just wept. It was just like a father chastising his son and I resolved to God then, and I wrote on my little yellow canary pad. I said, I wrote down, don't despise the day of small things. That verse goes on to say because the Lord rejoices to see the work begin and I just made, I just told God, I said, this is it for me if this is what I do and I was only 27. If this is what I do from now on, right here, than I'll, these people, this handful of people in this smelly old church will have the best pastor that they could possible have because I, you know, I'm privileged to have them. And that's really when things started to change for us. It was a change in me. it was an attitude shift and I just treated every single thing that I did ... it's interesting. I was reading a John Maxwell book today and he said, he quoted Dale Carnegie who said ... if I can get it right, he says don't be afraid to give a hundred ... or give your best for a small task and that really connected with me. I ... I ... that's what I did in that moment all those years ago, I just decided to give my best to what was a very small task and the rest is history, Richard, I mean, that's where the thing took off for me and I can, I can bring it all back. By the way, that book is Leader Shift. I just, I'm just remembering it, by John Maxwell, his newest book. But that, that's really where everything changed for me and there may be a lot of guys in this group right here today that you're just at that place, you know, it's just this is against ... but, for me, it was the town was against us, the locations against us, the building's against us, the name's against us. Our history in this community was against us and it seemed like even the people in the church were against me and, and maybe you're in that place but the thing is, it's an old common phrase but it really is true that one man or one woman and God is a majority and when I got on the right page with God, I got my heart right, and He and I got in a unity, or I guess I should say when I got into unity with Him, it's not like He met me in the middle! When I got into unity with His spirit and attitude about that congregation, things really started to change and I don't tell you that to say, you know, suck it up ans get your stuff together. I tell you that to say if you have God, you have what you need. You and God, your tenacity and your effort and your energy can change the situation that you're in. Jerry, you ... we talked about this a little bit before you got on. Great story, by the way, and pastor, if you're at the beginning of that journey I always, kind of, caution myself not to compare my beginning to somebody's middle. Amen. Jerry, can you take yourself back, then, and talk about how you thought about vision back then and then maybe even transition into talking about how do you think about vision now and what's God got on your heart for, not just for DayStar but also 24toDouble and what we're doing? Yeah, well, what God keeps telling me and reminding me is that you always overestimate what you can do in the short run and you always, always, always underestimate what you can do in the long run. Again, the book today, the chapters I read today in the John Maxwell book just blew my mind. He said, gosh, I wasn't planning on this and I have to look up my notes. Every time I ready a book I take notes on it so I don't miss it but it was a quote that he said. He says if you do the right thing when you're young, no one notices but if you do the right thing over decades, it becomes recognized and you eventually get more credit than you deserve and Richard, in some ways, I'm finally at that place where I'm beginning to see the huge impact that consistency will bring in your life. If you just put your head down and some of the things that come to my mind that I wish I had been more aware of in the earlier day when we were in a smaller church, one of them is just how immersed you are in your culture an how much you have to get out of that culture to hear from God. And so, what I do now that I didn't do then, is I really dedicate my time to Gob a little better and I was thinking about this. Pastors, if you're, if you have a pen nearby I want you to jot down these things here. The way that I hear from God, the way I push back culture and spend time with God is I have a real simple system. I give God a moment every day. Now, a lot of people call that their quiet time. I'm okay with that being a 15-minute moment. That's okay. It may be an hour depending on my schedule but He gets a moment every day and then secondly, a morning every week. You know, if you think about it, your relationship with God is the most intimate thing you have and the second most intimate relationship you would have would be your spouse so think about intimacy with your spouse. You know, you, you have a very close relationship but you're not physically intimate every day. You're close every day, sleep in the same bed, kiss each other good night or whatever, but there are intimate moments but it's a close lifestyle and I think you have to give yourself a break, be close to God every day but plan intimate moments. Like once a week I plan a morning with God. I'm not going to work that morning. I hit the gym early and I go for a prayer walk. It could be two to three hours. It could be, you know, I get a scripture on my heart and I just prayerfully, with worship, usually go and start to study that scripture for no end in sight. No this has got to be a sermon or I'm trying to develop, build a devotional. It's just a planned, intimate time with God. So, I'm halfway through this analogy. A moment with God every day, secondly, a morning with God every week. Thirdly, I set aside two days with God, two full days with God, every quarter. So on my calendar, right now, there's four times a year it will say Quarterly Sabbath. It's a two-day time where I don't do anything but I Sabbath. You guys don't Sabbath on Sunday. It just doesn't happen. You guys all know that song Easy Like Sunday Morning? That, that song was written by Alabama native, Lionel Ritchie, but he was not a pastor because there's nothing easy about Sunday morning when you're a pastor. That is not your Sabbath. So you have to find some other Sabbath. Two days, every quarter, I put it on my calendar. For me it's a Monday and a Tuesday. I skip staff meetings and other things like that and it's just planned time with God and rest. It might involve golf because Sabbath involves resting and changing your pace. So, first, a moment with God every day. Secondly, a morning with God every week. Thirdly, two days with God every quarter and lastly, I have a week with God every year. I do a prayer retreat where I go along with ... it's prayer and study and I go off by myself, there's no one with me, and I take a week. Sometimes it's the mountains. It's been at the beach. It might involve some hiking, it might involve some golf with a couple friends. But the vast majority of that time is prayer time and here's what that does for me. It gives me boldness to feel like, you know, God, I've spent time with you. I had a listening ear and if I very clearly hear where you want me to go, then I'm going to do it but if I'm not hearing or seeing the handwriting on the wall, that's okay because I've been close with you. I can trust my heart because my heart is your heart. You know, David was a man after God's own heart. I'm trying to do that and so what I found out is that those moments where I get alone with God, those are the ones where I just get filled up with vision and my why is refueled and refilled and so, you know, if I'm getting stressed out ... I just read some stuff from Rick Warren last week. He said stress is a warning light for me. He says stress is a warning light and if I feel stressed, that warning light is telling me that I've replaced God with something else. I got money stress. I've replaced God with money and I've got church stress than I've replaced God with the church but if I stay close to God, that stress level is going to decrease and so that's what I wish I had learned early on. I'm, Richard, really just continuing to learn it and absorbs it even after all these years. But, I hope pastors that are listening to us can make that kind of a focused effort to walk it with, walk closely with God and He will fill you up with clear vision. Okay, before we answer questions here, I've got to ask this question about that because so, so for the pastor that's hearing that and saying that's great for you, Jerry, but you got people. I don't have, I got too much to do to do that, what would you say to that pastor? Yeah, so, that's real. The struggle is real. The hard ... I got two answers. The hard line answer is, you know that the reason you don't have enough people and the reason you don't have enough time is because you haven't done these things and that's true. It's a hard, harsh truth but I have another, softer answer and that is that's why I founded an organization called The Barnabas Project and it's specifically designed to help pastors be able to take time and we will ... this doesn't always work in all cases, but what we do our very best to do is to provide a pastor to preach for you, a very high quality pastor to preach for you when you're gone and he doesn't need need an honorarium. A worship pastor, we're providing a worship pastor for a pastor in Birmingham right now. He's the preacher and the worship leader, so we're sending a pastor and a worship pastor down for him and then we also can provide vacation. If you can't afford a vacation, you wanted one, we can provide a vacation. Now, it's of course first come, first serve and we have limited availability. If everybody on this phone calls me, most of you'll be disappointed but that's, that is a ministry that is new and emerging and if you have any interest in it at all, jot down this email address. My wife is the secretary of The Barnabas Project. It's a non-profit organization, LeslieLawson@daystarchurch.tv. Then that doesn't cost you anything. [crosstalk 00:15:14]. It's L-A-W-S-O-N. Just for those- Yes. ... who don't, yeah. Just. Yeah. And Leslie could be spelled a couple ways so that's L-E-S-L-I-E Lawson. That's awesome. All right, you ready to answer a couple questions, jerry? Let's roll. All right! Here we go! All right, tell us your name and your church name, and then fire away! Hello? Jerry, you still there? Oh, yes! Good morning! It's [inaudible 00:15:45] from St. James Presbyterian Church in New Zealand, just below Auckland. By the way, thanks for the 24toDouble. We just started around about April this year so we've just finished module three and we're just wondering how do you go about running those teams? We are thinking about starting with the WOW team and the Follow-Up Team but if you were to have the five people, you know the apostle to the teacher, how do they actually do the WOW thing on the car park or welcoming or ushering people. Who does what? Yeah, so, I think in the downloadable materials, the notes that go along with the teaching as well as the slides, while I'm teaching, there, there is some break down in this but essentially you've got your Leader, your Team Leader, which still falls under apostolic. You have your Prayer Leader which falls under prophetic. You've got your Recruiter which falls under evangelism. You got your Teacher which is the teaching and then you have your Shepard, which falls under pastor. And so, you know, that Team Leader's going to organize people to be wherever he wants them to be. The actual function, this is very important, the actual function of the team is not as important as the structure of the team. So, I don't really care where the Team Leader stands, if he's on parking detail or on lobby welcoming people or whatever. That's really more of, in terms of nurturing the team, okay? Your Recruiter, it doesn't matter where he is or she is. The Prayer Leader, doesn't really matter where they are. What I'm talking ... those roles are like off-Sunday roles so your Recruiter is recruiting new team members any time he's talking to people. Your Prayer Leader is the one who calls the team together for prayer 45-minutes before the service starts, maybe shares a brief devotion or something like that. Your Trainer is the one who's ... the teaching get ... is training new persons on their first Sunday there on how to do it and your, your Shepard, you know your pastoral gift person? That's the person that is noticing who's not there and who's giving them a call through the week. Hey, I noticed you weren't here. Is everything okay? Can we pray for you about something? So, that's how it works in the big picture but as far as how it works on Sunday to the person walking up to the door, it really doesn't matter who serves where, if that answers your question. Right, right. No, thanks for that. So, obviously, it's not just the five people on the team. The Recruiter will bring in more people into the team? Right. Absolutely. You, you want that team to grow, you know ... a Daystar, those teams have actually grown to the point where you're not serving every Sunday. You know, you're picking and choosing so we try to schedule them to serve once a month because we keep growing new recruits and so we try to scheduled them to serve once a month or every other week and then a lot of them who really want to serve in some capacity every week, they might serve in Children's as well as WOW team or what we call First Impressions now, but yeah. Your teams definitely going to grow. Right. Right. No, thanks for that and the second question is I've noticed on, I think, was module two, the foundation ... foundation courses or something that you have in the, in the downloads- Yes. ... how does that fit in with the, like ... so when you cast a vision and the people know that there are seven teams and there are five leaders, what do you tell them about the foundation courses like ... is that so that you can become a member or what? Well, this is a decision each church has to determine for themselves but for us, we, we don't want anybody serving if they haven't gone through our growth track which we're calling Foundations. So if you haven't gone through that, and become a member, we don't want you to serve so that's, that's the on-ramp for serving and so I'm talking about that a lot from the pulpit during the message. We don't make it an announcement. We make it a part of the message that this is how you grow, this is how you serve others, this is our on-ramp to get you, you know, fully getting the most out of this church and investing the most into this church so it's not ... we try not to make it feel procedural. We try to make it feel like an experience and part of your discipleship experience, Right, right. So, I noticed in your session three, you were talking about the pastors breakfast or lunch. How within an hour or so when you do the presentation of casting the vision and try to bring onboard the FTA's, do you also mention the Foundation during that time, say, for example, that there's income spec three weeks in a row- Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. We don't want ... and we know that people won't do exact ... some people want to be more slow in their assimilation process but we want to lay the, we want to clear the path and move them down the road so we want you straight into pastor breakfast and straight out of pastor breakfast into Foundations. Absolutely. Into Foundations. Okay. No, thanks very much. That's very helpful. Thanks. Well, thank you so much for calling. Great question, thank you. All right, here we go! Next question, Jerry. Tell us your name and your church name and, yeah ... go ahead. Yeah, my name is Sam, I'm from Virginia and my church is Cornerstone Community Church. I'm the ... one of the elders in the church. The Senior Pastor, he could not come. He'd been battling cancer for the last 15 years and he sort of, he got sick and so ... but he definite is for 24Double. Great. And I have, I have three questions. We just started, we just doing the the first session. I have two, I got another one I'm going to do this week, and one of the sections, a person asked a question, on your guarantee ... say you go through 24 months and you have guaranteed that if you don't get whatever you trying to accomplish, that you are ... get your money back. The question was asked to me is what is it that 24toDouble look for to meet that requirement? Well you have to- I, I got this one. Yeah, I got this one. Go head. I mean, like, so, you know, and you can add to the end of it, Jerry. So here ... it's a couple of things. Number one, we do ... we have more guarantee's than anybody that you can shake a stick at. You can ... we usually start with a 15-day trial, 60-day money back guarantee. No questions asked. You can cancel anytime. This is not a contract and then, after 24 months, here's what we ask is that you've made a concerted effort ... meaning you've had some of the meetings, you've logged into the platform. That you, you have come together. What ... what we want to avoid is ... we always want to avoid ... we don't want to, we don't want to trap anybody into any sort of agreement but this, this is an organization that costs money to run and I think that's important that everybody knows. We're not raising money from one place and then trying to serve in another place. We feel like part of the, part of the secret sauce of 24toDouble is a pastor sitting down with a team and saying should we do this, okay? So ... and, and you have to do that if you're going to spend ... if you're going to spend $100 a month for two years or whatever it is. We, we fell like that's just a critical part of it. If a pastor sits in his office by himself and takes this content in, nothing's going to change. So after two years, we ask that you've, you've spent time logging into the platform and yes, we can tell. The other thing is that we ask that you get, there's a document that you have when a person, one your Elder Board sign and have notarized that says we made an effort in this and it didn't work for our church. Now, let me say this on the top of that. Jerry and I just celebrated a six year partnership in 24toDouble. We've never had one church, we've never had ... we've never had a church go through the two years and ask for their return on investment because the bottom line is, this ain't rocket surgery. This is ... if you put these seven teams in place, you ... I don't care how bad the pastor preachers, or how ugly the people are in your church, if you put these seven teams in place, you're going to see significant benefit in your church and it's not something that Jerry invented or Dr. Weston, that kind of taught this to Jerry, this is ... this is systems that drive behaviors. Your church, Jerry, says it all the time, perfectly designed to be the way it is right now. What we're helping you do is put a new design in place to get a better outcome with the thought that are reaching people that are far from God but right outside the doors of your church. If you spend two years in this, you do everything that we ask you to do, we're not going to come out and investigate. It's not worth it. It's not enough money for us to worry about that. What we do ask is that, at least two people agree that we did this and and it didn't work where we are. But we have, the reason we can make that guarantee, we have no doubt that this works in a church where they work it. It's not an easy button, it's a plan, and if you work the plan ... we see it working all the time. In fact, you'll hear pastors that get on here, maybe today, that talk about what's happened with 24toDouble in their church ... we've taken five thousand dollars a month worth of, worth of consulting and packaged it in a way that you can have it for $99.00 a month, that's crazy. I mean, that's the internet, you know? It's here to stay. Does that answer your question? Man, that answered fantastic. You, you ain't got to sell me on it because I'm there now. I love it, so- Hey, man, that's my job is to sell people on this! Yeah, I know. I know. Serious to God, but if I'm not selling people on here, I'm not doing the only thing I know how to do! Well, you're doing a good job! Well, thank you! Jerry, do you have anything you want to add to that? No, I would just say, like, if you ... like anybody that does all of these 24 modules and puts them into place, there's no chance they're going to ask for their money back because you're going to go wow, this was ... this was so worth it! This was so ... and we do have a super long history where nobody's asked. Like, literally, nobody after going through it, has ever asked. Based on years and ... six online and then how many before that, Jerry? We did about four ... four or five, no, no, no, no! No! We did five years, at least, in person so yeah, we're over 10 years in this thing and nobody's ever gone through it and said, you know, we don't think it was helpful and we want our money back. Yeah. It's like roughing a ball off of ... it's like dropping a ball off of bridge. If you drop a ball off a bridge, it's going to hit, it's going to hit something on the way down. I mean, it's ... I mean, like, it's not physics, but it's like that. You put these systems in place and you get volunteers on those teams and you, you gift tested them onto the team so we're not getting people that have a competency, meaning, they can direct traffic. We're getting people that are passionate about helping people get on and off of this, off of your site. Even if you don't have a traffic problem, still need people in the parking lot because if we don't make feel ... if we don't make people feel accepted in our churches, they will feel rejected. Rejection is the default mode in any environment. If they walk in, nobody speaks to them, rejection. And that's why I think it's so important that we are putting systems in place not because we need people to help people park, we need friendly faces where people go oh, I'm in the right place. Yeah, we've designed the whole thing ... Richard's got a long history in church design, but we designed the whole church to where you don't need parking help. I mean, everything about its ... what we want to say you're welcome here. That you're important. That we want to serve you so we're helping people park just because, you know, we want to set a mood and set a feeling in the room or on the property. Yeah. Hey, let me say this, too. So, every church needs ... what was your name again? Sam. Sam. Sam, hey, I'm going to give you a props here because you and I are the only two people here that aren't pro Christians on this call and I would just tell you, the fact that you picked up the ball for your pastor and you're on this call today asking question, I ... every pastor needs a Sam and I just heard everybody on the call today say Amen. Everybody needs somebody that's going to, that's going to pick them up when they're down and, by the way, if your pastor's been fighting cancer for 15-years, he's winning. Yes, well, I appreciate that. Yes, your answer ... was that, that's all I got to say. It was good. Yeah, let us know. Yeah. The second question is I've listened to a lot of the modules but one of the things is kind of confusing and then again it's not, but I just want to clarify this, Jerry, you would say that this is not a church growth model and then sometimes you'll say it is or Richard'll say it is, but then sometimes I hear that it isn't. Kind of explain what y'all mean by that? Real simple, real simple. Daystar Church, our ... I'm sorry. I'm also the Daystar pastor so I default there sometimes. 24toDouble is a whole-church discipleship model. That's what it is at it's core. But, the real discipleship always grows the church, so, if you implement this discipleship model, it will become a church growth engine. Your church will grow. Jesus, you know, started with 12 disciples, quickly grew to 17, or 72, then we see thousands and it always multiplies. Discipleship always multiplies. I used to ... I always thought discipleship was Sunday school classes. You know, that's discipleship and it's not, it's boring and it's not exciting but it's something you have to do. But when you look in scripture, discipleship always produces more people so, that ... that's why I often say hey, this isn't just a church growth program, it's a whole-church discipleship model but when you do discipleship, the church grows rapidly. So that's ... I hope that explains what we're saying there. Yes- Let me, let me speak to it from a marketing side, standpoint. Nobody's searching for whole-church discipleship models and be real honest with you, Sam, not a whole lot of people are searching for church growth which is disturbing. There's a whole lot of things ... the most searched term in this space is free sermon notes online. So, as much as ... and here's what that tells me as a guy that's out here trying to serve pastors in this marketplace, that we are slightly interested in figuring out how to reach the lost in our community, but there's so many plates spinning for most pastors, they don't even have time to do sermon preparation. So, they're scrambling trying to figure out how to get ready for Sunday because it comes every week and ... but there's, also, funerals and weddings and hospital visits that a lot of pastors are still sucking at so when we think through this model ... if I put, if I put the message out this is a whole-church discipleship model, were not going to get a lot of people responding to that but church growth is kind of, it's one of the issues that I think, we all agree, that the great commission is to reach lost, the lost, and if you're doing that church growth is naturally going to happen. Yeah, good answer. I appreciate that. I love what y'all doing. The last question is, on the model as far as Ephesian 4, where it says apostles, prophets and teachers, so forth, just ... I just need a little clarification. When i see the chart, even though you got apostles, prophets and stuff, you have where it said apostle, administrative, administration and so forth, so on. So, based at the Romans 12, gift is really what you use enough at and you're saying Ephesian 4 is just a model that Jesus, he used to give to people. Is my understanding correct? Yeah, yeah. We try ... that's a good question, Sam. What we try to do, because we literally have every ... we have Pentecostals and Baptists and Presbyterians like the pastor from St. James Presbyterian in New Zealand ... we have every walk of life and so we try not to get too theological. I'm very personally ... I could give you a whole sermon about what I think about Romans 12 and Ephesians 4. But I leave my personal theology out of this. I just say it's very clear that Jesus wants these different kinds of gifts to work together, you know? And so, I'm not saying that the Team Leader on the WOW team, your First Impressions team, is an apostle. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying he has some five-fold leadership gifts that look like an apostles leading gift. You know, the apostle was the point man, he's out front, he's the leader, you know, so ... and I'm saying that, you know, the prophet gift, the office of the profit in Ephesians 4 is very similar to the gift of prophecy in Romans 12, you know, and the office of the pastor's very similar to the gift of pastoring or encouraging in Romans 12. So, we're not trying to make a theological statement there other than that Jesus likes divergent gifts to be on the same team so we want all those gifts to be on every single team. That way you don't get, like, this clique-ish type system where everybody who thinks the same is up on one team and that's how you end up like children's ministry people don't like worship people and, you know, the greeters don't like, you know, the youth group or whatever because you get everybody who thinks the same in this silo mentality. So, and it's beautiful. It's Jesus's idea. To mix those gifts together and we, we're following the same ... that same philosophy of Jesus. Yeah, that explained it. That helped me undertenant, I really appreciate what y'all doing. So thank you so much. Thank you, Sam. Thanks Sam! Hey, and thanks for asking such good questions. I mean, like, that ... that last one was ... you're in a small crowd of volunteers that could ask that kind of question. Thanks Sam! All right, I think this might be Herbert. It is! How you all doing? Great. We're well. How about you? Well, I'm doing great now that I have finally have gotten on a call and I've been waiting for three months. I've had some time and challenge in getting here, but I'm here. I got a quite a few things going on. First, as a previous callers have all expressed, I am excited about 24toDouble. I have initiated it. I've started some things in church and in my 10 years, our church has grown very well but we've reached that point where we've outgrown some of the systems that we've had and I think 24Double is there to take us to the next level. Here's my question. One, I remember listening on one of the modules about, you were talking about, Jerry, that there are difficult conversations that I as a pastor should not have with certain people just to that they won't feel uncomfortable when I'm preaching. The reason I'm asking you this is because I know that when I ... I'm on sabbatical right now but when I get back in August I know there are some conversations I need to have with some leaders because I see some things going awry. I see some of my leaders aren't giving as much as they used to. They're not attending meetings as much as they used to and they're not serving like the used to. So, how do I go about doing that if I've always been the one in the past having that conversation and who should have it, that conversation with them and how do I go about making certain that what needs to be communicated is communicated? Yeah, so, you know, there are times when you're the only one to make that call to have those conversations but, if and when you have a good, trusted leader, with authority. You know, they've got to be a person who's recognized as an authority person, then it's good to slowly start transitioning some of those conversations to someone else because here's why. Every person who gets wronged or they think they've been wronged, or they get their feelings hurt or whatever, they want to respond up the chain. You know, you're at a restaurant and you get bad service from your waiter, hey I need to speak to the manager. Everybody always wants to go up the chain. Well, if you're the Senior Pastor, and you know, you're the spiritual head and the leader of that church, where does the complaint go? There's no where to go. So, then they've got to leave the church. Or, worse than that, their complaint goes to Facebook and everybody here get dirty laundry aired out so it is a good leadership practice to not have the top person in the organization to do all the correcting. Now, the very top people, obviously if there's some corrections that have to be made to the very top people, well, the Senior Leader, the Senior Pastor, has to make those. But, you know, if you've got an elder or you've got like the chairman of the church board or something like that, that is trusted, that you can count on that can do some of that for you, then that, that's going to make it a lot easier for you and for the church members, the team members to accept it because it didn't come from the person that's trying to preach to them. And again, that's not ... you know, I'd be very careful in who I invest that in. You know, you got to make sure that they're the right person and it's a slow transition but that's where you want to go as a leader. Sorry Herbert, I muted you there. We had some background noise. Did that answer your question, Herbert? We can hear you now. All right, we're going to go with a yes. All right, let's move on. I think this is ... I'm not sure who this is. Tell us your name and your church name and ask your question. This is Brenda, Faith Christian Church in Boston, Mass. Hey, Brenda! Hi! It's wonderful to be with you guys today. I have a couple of questions. I started with, we started with 24toDouble a couple years ago and, in fact, we're right ... just about two years now. Although really we, it took us some months to sort of get traction with it as our five-fold leadership group. I mean, I had been looking at the videos for very few others so probably about September or so. But nevertheless, we have done ... I think we've followed the instructions quite well. We have ... but it seems like ... seems like our folks are pretty slow to accepting change and would often go back into the old behaviors. So, as a result, we have seen probably about a 20% growth over this period of time. I think that the program is really great and this year, in fact, at the beginning of this year, we implemented ... we went back and sort of then worked with implementing small groups because it's not everything that, you know, we weren't able to do everything in the exact order prescribed but the small groups was a bigger challenge. I have to really ... we forgot to help ... to direct me on how to implement it. It has been really good. It has been going really good. But we are dealing with the groups wanting to crystallize and not extend, multiply, not be that draw for, you know, for non-believers and on church people so that they can experience growth and as, and the church, also, can experience that kind of growth. What suggestions do you have for me there and then I will also ask a follow up question. Okay, Brenda. So, that's very natural and very normal it becomes ... I try to tell people this, that small groups does not need to be Sunday school on the road. That's not what that is. You know, a Sunday school class can tend to never change, you never stop meeting, there's never any diversity to it, everybody's the same people that were there a dozen years ago are there now. That's not what we want out of small groups. Small groups as, as you said, should not be internally focused but should be externally focused and so there should be semesters, you know, the small groups shift every semester and there's new groups available and some of the same groups reorder, re-up, or start over again but there still needs to be an on ... a sign-up process, a launch date where these groups launch a week from now and today is sign-up or two weeks from now and today is sign-up and so that whole process will generate a little bit of a churn. I don't know if you're familiar with that term of a churn rate but it just sort of turns the whole process over and people diversify. And there's a lot of teaching that but the key to the whole thing, Brenda, is the person in charge of small groups, the person that takes it on, and in a lot of churches that has to be the Senior Pastor in the initial phases of it. But the person in charge of that, has to be fully understanding of the model that we're going to be a free market system which means your groups don't have to be all the same. You know, you might be doing a Bethmore book over here and I might be doing a Gardening With God group over there, you know, or something like that. It could be interest based. It could be activity based. It could be biblically studying based because it ... so, we know that they're going to be free market. We know they're going to have a definite start and end date and we know that they're going to not be gigantic groups. You know, we go at group right now that's just way too large and we're making them break up and they, they don't really like that but if you don't ... if you don't stay true to your DNA, you have what's called mission creep and you creep off of the mission and you don't have what you need so, there's got to be a person that fights for that and preaches it. You can't announce this kind of stuff. You got to preach it. You got to explain why this small group's provide accountability. They provide a safe place to trust someone. They provide a new door for someone fresh and new. There's nothing worse than trying to come into a small group with 12 or 15 people and everybody there's been friends for five years and you're the only person that is new. Well see, at our small groups, they turn over every 13 weeks so there's nobody there that's been there a long time and so there's a definite model that we teach and we lay out in 24toDouble and you have to stick to it and you have to have someone that's passionate about it and they have to be leading it. Okay. So when you say it turns over every ... I mean, do you require that everybody shift or do you assign people to different groups if they sign up for the same groups that work time wise and location wise- No, no. So, you can resign up for the same group again but here's what's going to happen, if you get your leaders ... let's just say for the sake of the argument that you're the person leading small groups, then you get a handful of people around you that are your leaders and you pour into them and you make sure they understand the why. Why are we doing it the way we're doing it? Because we want to provide accountability. We want to be a safe place for newcomers because we want to grow the church through groups. All the reasons why we want to do what we do and make them your soldiers. You know, they're marching out, they're fulfilling your vision for this thing and if they get close to you, they're going to do that. Now, the other thing is, you have to bottle it. You know, after many, many years of small groups at our church were we have over 100 groups every semester, I still model it. I have a small group ... in fact, most semesters I'm in at least, I'm leading one group and I'm attending another so I'm at least in two groups, sometimes three groups, and I'm constantly posting about it on social media to remind people how groups are important, in my sermons I'm talking about when I was in this group, man, I had this great conversation with this guy and ... or whatever, so I'm constantly espousing the why of these groups. Not the what, not hey sign up here, you know, close the group by this date. Not that stuff. But the why until it finally catches on and just remember this, there is a law of manufacturing and what I mean by that is like when you're manufacturing something new, it takes four times as much time, as much effort, four times as much effort to start something as it does to maintain it. So, all the heavy lifting is on the front and unfortunately, too many people give up because they think we're doing it wrong or something like that and you're just right around the corner from a breakthrough when this thing gains momentum and really starts to, to go. So stick it out. Stick with it. Okay. Understood. Thank you. The other question is, so, we have been doing it in semesters and this is our second semester this year ... this year. We actually do two month on, two months off, two months on again with a lot of groups or small groups and at the end of each one we do a great celebration and so this being the summer and spring months of this last term, we generally do an annual barbecue for the community and, you know, we do it on a Sunday. This time we are doing everything outdoors. The service, as well as the barbecue and we ... I am particularly am pressed to ask what are your best suggestions for how to capitalize on, you know, all this effort that we're making to draw people and for follow-up, for follow-up and for getting even some of them back into the church? A lot of times, we don't just ... we just fail in the way our follow-up and even knowing who got favored here? Oh yeah, four people got favored, yeah, and no idea who they were and no opportunity to follow-up with them. Yes, so, I mean that is a ... that's a big strategy, multi-pronged, like there is all kinds of ... actually, when I drew out our follow-up strategy for our church, I drew a tree with roots and limbs and ... you know, there's so ... it's just ... I could talk for about two hours about that but it specifically regarding this barbecue, community barbecue, which is fantastic. That's a great idea! You're going to ... first of all, get as many people are you can. I mean, just promote it, get banners, get the word out there, draw as many people as you can but make every single person there register. Everybody's got to register. Go by the registration table ... and I don't know how you do that. Maybe you give them a ticket for their barbecue sandwich or whatever and you got to go by the table to get your ticket, but we're going to register every single person just so we've got good records. All right, and so we're going to get names and physical addresses as well as cell phone numbers and email addresses. Then, we're going to find all kinds of ways to follow-up with those people and so you've got to have a bigger follow-up strategy. What do you want people to do? So if they're coming to an outdoor community event ... what ... the main thing I want them to do is to come to church on Sunday. That's it. That's the first step. I want them back in church on Sunday, so I'm going to have ... every time I do a big new series or a big event like Easter, Christmas, Kidfest, Friend Day, you know, whatever ... every time I do a big event like that, I'm going to go back to my database, big event database ... which the barbecue rolls into that. So you're going to get all kinds of names of people who came just for the barbecue. They didn't come back to church, but you're inviting them back for Easter, for Christmas, for Kidfest, all right? And so you got a snail mail approach where you make these nice little half page card stock invite cards that go through the mail and when they get those cards, they stick them on their refrigerator and it reminds them every time they see it. You've got a social media platform where, you know, you're hitting them on social media and that's more of a person by person approach where you're looking them up. You've got an email strategy where you're emailing them regularly and you've got a text strategy where you're texting them readily. There's a great little tool called TextInChurch that you might look up. TextInChurch and I ... we use it. I don't really like the way, the methodology they tell you to use it. We kind of hijacked it to work a different way for us because it ... kind of the approach they have is try to get all of your members to text this number to let them know that you're new, this is your first day here and we're still finding a lot of people that don't want to do that. Right. It just seems too corporate but they really don't mind filling out a prayer card and telling your their prayer request and including their text, their phone number, you know? So, what we end up doing is we physically go back and put their email and their text information in that process and it's about a six or nine week follow-up strategy that is entirely automated. You know, and it's- That's awesome. ... it's really, really, really cool so follow-up is something that you can be as robust as possible ... I mean, I feel like ... if I could just explain it this way, I feel like the average church in terms of follow-up is like a Volkswagen Beetle driving down the interstate and I feel like my church is like a 18-wheeler semi-truck, double axle, driving past ... I mean, you can get as robust as you want to and it's as simple as sitting in a room with a group of people and saying how do we loose people? All right? So tell me where we loose people? Well, they get saved, and they never come back. Okay. So let's have a strategy for that person. Well, they come to the barbecue every year and they never come. Okay, what's the strategy for that person? Or they come to Easter, they don't come back. Well, they come, they come for three weeks, they go to pastors breakfast and we never see them again. Okay, what's the strategy for that? So we took, at my church, we took about six months and we thought through every conceivable way people leave us and every conceivable way that we can track them or follow-up with them. That's kids ministry check-in, student check-in, big events check-in ... every ... giving records every way we could track them, we put that all together so that there is a system ... because, you know, as big as your front door is, your back door is gigantic! People are coming in the front door, they're going right back out the back door so, you know, its really a robust system that it takes you a long time to fully develop but the beauty is, you could start something right now, just off of that barbecue. And I know, Brenda, that's way more answer than you asked for but I'm kind of passionate about this area and I talk a lot about it, so I hope it helped. I ... it does help and I appreciate it. What I would love to be able to take a peak at is your gigantic tree model because- Yeah. ... I've been, I have been processing this for a couple of years, come up with all kinds of strategies and still I feel like it all just falls flat and deflates because I don't ... the people are unnecessarily catching the vision and understanding, yet, just how essential it is for even the detail in steps to be carried out for this to happen well and so I feel like I, I am bearing the burden practically alone but thank you- Yeah. Yeah. ... if there's any way that we can get ... I can get some more of your ideas, I'd love to get it whether by email or some other way. Okay. We're ... well- Yeah and I'll say this, Brenda, yeah, we're going to do some new things in the fall and we'll be telling you more about that next month so just hold on. We're about to shift into a different gear. Yeah the ... one of the reasons why that takes a little more time is that we developed it, tailor-made it for our church which is a multi-campus, you know, 45 hundred member church and a lot what we do won't apply directly so we, we're trying to rebuild that system in a way that applies to most churches. You know, you might not have the same ... you might not have the same database system that we have. You might not have the same staffing that we have so we're ... but it's not a big difference. Even as I think about it right now, there's just a few tweaks that we need to make so that it would apply to your church and every other church so, we're working on it. We're going to get it to you soon. Thank you. Thanks Brenda! We got three more, Jerry. I think this is Larry. Yes. Hey, Larry, you on with us? Yeah, I'm with you. Can you hear me? We got you. Yes, go ahead. Okay. So my question was similar to the young man that asked about the using at the different terminologies rather than the [spive 00:56:16] and Ephesians. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the question? Yeah and ... yeah and so, I'm sorry, I'm in line and getting distracted. Let me just get out of line real quick. Yeah, so, we were a little confused, my wife and I was a little confused when it was time to put all that together because it didn't use the same terminology. It started going into Romans 12 and that was a bit confusing. It was ... you did answer some of it when you were speaking about it, but if you don't mind, just ... and I don't want to waste anybody's time, but can you just explain that again? I knew that you were talking about not going into the different denominations and things of that nature, but I got to say that it is a bit confusing to us. So, do you mind just briefly- Yeah. [crosstalk 00:57:13]. So- Okay, I ... yeah, I muted you Larry, just so you know because you got a lot of background noise going on. Okay, go ahead Jerry. Yeah, so, it's based on the premise that Jesus likes to ... Jesus likes diversity and Jesus likes [kinshim 00:57:28]. Okay? A prophetic person does not see the world the same way an apostolic person does. There's just no question about it and that's why they're both on the team. So, what were saying is, when you look at an apostle, he's very much like the ruling gift that you read about in Romans, okay, or the five-fold leadership gift, okay? So, we just said we're going to have five leaders across the top in the same spirit of an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher but they're not apostles, prophets, evangelists and teachers in every church or in every team, okay? That's just not, not going to be possible. But there are, there are leaders, there are prophetically gifted people which we believe make great Prayer Leaders. There are people with the gift of mercy which make great evangelists. They are pastorally gifted people and there are people with the gift of teaching. So, really, the only sort of stretch, if there's any stretch at all, is by saying, okay, we're not going to have an apostle on every team, but we're definitely going to have a leader, okay? That's the ruling gift or the leadership gift. We're not going to have an evangelist on every team, but we're definitely going to have a person with a gift of mercy, which is very similar to an evangelist gift and then the other three gifts are, you know, specially listed in the Romans 12, First Corinthians 12 listing of the functional, or motivational, gifts. So there's very ... there's a prophetic gift that is there, we call it the Prayer Leader. There is an encourager gift which, we know, is a Shepherding, or pastoral gift and there's a teacher gift which we know is a teacher so it just naturally ... those two lists, the seven that you find in Romans 12 and the five that you find in Ephesians 4, they just naturally fit together and we just draw that together because you're going to have motivational gifts on every team. That's the Romans 12 gifts. That's the motivational gifts. The Ephesians 4 gifts are ascension gifts. You're not going to have those on every team. You might not even have all five of those ascension gifts even in your one congregation, okay? So it's kind of ridiculous to think that, you know, the First Impressions team, or the WOW team at X church is going to have an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, that's just not going to happen. But they are, they can have all of those Romans gifts that fit in the vein of those five gifts. So we've kind of superimposed the Romans 12 gifts over the Ephesians 4 gifts. does that clarify it for you, Larry? It does. That helped a whole lot. I was trying not to go to Romans, not so much trying not to, but I wanted ... I just got tunnel vision on the five in Ephesians and so now you've opened up for me and I appreciate that and I know our time is up, but yeah. Thank you, Larry. Good question. All right, let's see. I think this is William. William, you on? Okay, this is ... yeah, this is Anthony from ... I'm from [inaudible 01:00:52]. First of all, I apologize ... I'm on Central time and you Eastern time and we weren't thinking that you were an hour ahead of me so I kind of joined in about 30 minutes late. But our church here, we just started this 24toDouble and to get kind of like a slow go. One of my questions is that we, we are now in the really done the first two modules. The first module we kind of stopped on because we did do a survey demographic survey of the area where our pastor and stuff, and so we've done some strategic planning. My question to you all, to you is that we came up with like six things that we need to do in that area to reach the people that's in that survey but I also want to keep on going with the module. Now, should I, should I stop with the modules until we do those six things or do we keep doing the modules along with those, with the strategic planning? Okay, yeah, so, I would, I would say you continue doing the modules and you ask yourself how can these six things that we're doing, how can the church focus toward those things, okay? So, if there are things going on that ... they don't reach those six areas of focus. We're doing things that just don't help in those six areas, well, then we're going to cancel those things. We're going to take those things away and replace them with the other six things we're doing. Let's say we were doing some kind of a gospel concert or some kind of a camp or something like that, and now we want to change it and do something else. Well, you're going to get to the big event module, eventually, and that big event module will apply to the new program or the new event that you've got or you're going to get to the follow-up module and the follow-up module will apply to the new things that you're adding to what your church does. So, I would want to go ahead and get those six things, you know ... not all six of them, by the way. Don't ever start six things at one time but find one- Oh, no, no, no, no, no. No. Yeah, find one that you can win on that is the easiest to accomplish and produces the most fastest result because, you know, you're always playing a war of public perception and you want to, you want to ... that's the whole reason 24toDouble is shaped the way it is, is we don't necessarily go through module one, two, three, four, five like this. We, our teams, we don't necessarily go teams one, two, three, four, five, six but we do the teams that produce the most results the earliest on so that when the change starts to happen, people see that change as positive change and they don't fight the change. So I'd do the same thing with six focus areas that you thought about is pick one or two that you can really jump on, and then do the modules as your implementing those. Yeah, we have, we have ... we just have two, we're going to try to do two right now, get it started but my last question, I need to ask you is that you mentioned about the big event and I think one of the things that we, we thought of big even but we didn't have the ... we wasn't doing 24toW, 24toDouble then and I think we kind of missed, missed somewhere on that if we would had that, but we had a big event. We have like 250 some peoples come and show up for that big event but we kind of dropped the ball on that because we didn't ... I think out of that, we got about 5 peoples out of that 250 and we didn't get no follow-up behind it and I think we kind of dropped the ball so my question to you is that, can I go from, from where I'm at now to that module or do I need to work us to that module? Yeah, I would just, I would just stick with it. I mean, you're going to have multiple big events every year so if you didn't get the most of out this last big even, that's okay. Just stick with the process. Go straight through the modules and you'll learn them as you get there. A lot of guys want to get in a hurry and, and that's probably the most likely mistake that pastors make is, they just, they want to get ahead of themselves and skip around and jump from this to that and I would just encourage you, if you started on the one, one through 24, just go straight though it, one at a time. Okay. Thanks a lot, then. That was my question. Thank you. Okay, thank you Anthony. We got, we got one last one, Jerry, and I think this is Herbert that we dropped earlier. Hey, sorry that we got cut off there just as minute. Just a last quick question, I have a Deacon Board, as most Baptist churches do, but I also have a Dual Strategy Team which helps me with making decisions. How and where would they fall in the five-fold ministry? That's my question. Yeah, so what we try to do, Herbert, is not ... not, you know, kill anything that's going. You know, if it's fine and it's working, but then at the same time, we try not to artificially push a board into another structure. You know, so like, I think it would be a mistake to say, okay, this strategy team is going to become my Five-fold leadership team or this elders board is going to become ... but, I would just find the best people off of the strategy team, the elder ... whoever they are. Maybe they're newcomers to the church. They're not even in a big position. Just let this 24toDouble be a new initiative that we're doing- Right. ... and it doesn't, it doesn't cancel out those old teams, but it also doesn't try to superimpose those teams over what we're doing. Just pick the best people, no matter where they're coming from. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right, thanks Herbert! Hey, pastors ... thank you guys for being with us today. If you, if you want to listen to the podcast again, you can do that. I'm sorry. I will get this up on the podcast in the next week and a half or so. Our help is on vacation. I'm not sure why we got everybody live, but hey, Jerry, thanks for being with us and we'll go ahead and cut it since we've got background noise going. Yeah, somebody's blowing off their drive ... guys. It's my fault. Yeah I haven't run the technology in a while but, thanks pastors and we'll catch you all on the next one.