Case Study: Hard Lines

Companies House podcasts

This podcast is part of a series of case studies in which we speak to small business owners. Find out about the challenges and advantages of owning your own business, and pick up some advice on how to get started.

Hard Lines is an independent coffee and vinyl shop based in Cardiff, south Wales. We interviewed directors Matt and Sophie and asked them about the challenges of setting up their business and their plans for the future.

Read more about them on our website - www.gov.uk/government/case-studies/hard-lines

Transcript

Companies House interviewer: Hi there. I'm here with Matthew and Sophie from Hard Lines an independent coffee shop based here in Cardiff, but a coffee shop with a twist. We'll just have a bit of a chat and find out a bit about you guys, so how did you meet and get things started with your business? Matthew: University, I guess, we met at University when we were both 22, we both went to uni in Cardiff Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama just up the road. I think it's probably like maybe two, maybe three years after we left university, I think we were starting to get a bit fed up what we were doing with work and I think we particularly both had reasonably difficult Christmas’ around 2016, so then we took a holiday and then on that holiday, we sort of conceived the idea that we want to do something differently and leave what we were doing and maybe go in a different direction and then we came back and started that process. CH: Okay, coffee, why, how? Where did that idea come from? Sophie: We were sat in a coffee shop and talking about how we were kind of disillusioned with the work we were doing and Matt was talking about, you know, “I would absolutely love to run a little coffee shop”, well, you know, “I would love to run a little Record Shop”. I really like coffee, Matt’s really into music and records. We were on the flight home and thought should we go for it? And then it just took off from there. I think we're really lucky we struck it at the right time. M: Yeah, I think so. I like being surrounded by people who are keen to have that time. I think we were just in a little bubble of people and like a community they were willing to offer advice and help us build or do different aspects of what might need to be done to make it happen. We were lucky enough to have that as well. I think that probably gave us a little kick on. CH: So what kind of advice were you given and where did it come from? S: We're lucky. Over the past five years there's a really strong independent scene, especially in food and drink in Cardiff. We kind of came through at the same time and we worked alongside luffkin, who are like a micro roastery and Early Bird who are bakery. They'd both started about six months or so before us so we'd been going there as customers and we would chat with them and they were really open and helpful with everything, so “you should speak to this person”, “you should do this” or “just go for it”. CH: So from a limited company point of view, obviously, you're registered as a limited company. Where did the decision to go down that route come from, was that advice given to you or did you search out for that information? S: Yeah, we're both already soletrades because we were self-employed. We were looking at becoming a partnership, I think it was my based on knowledge from my GCSE business, I said “I think a limited company is the right thing to do” and so we looked it up and realised we ticked quite a lot of the boxes. M: Yeah, thinking back from my perspective was the fact that we were starting with nothing. I think all we were starting with was a tiny amount of our own money. In the very beginning we didn't take any money from banks or anything like that. I don't know, my logic behind it was that maybe if things didn’t go with the plan and we packed it in a couple of months later or six months later or a year later then I know psychologically there's less risk for some reason as a limited company which to this day I don't know if it’s correct or incorrect, but that's definitely what my logic was, so that's why I went with it. CH: So how did you choose your company name Hard Lines? Where did it come from? What's the story behind your company name? S: So we weren't called Hard Lines. We were called Out Post and I guess if we're talking about any mistakes or shortcomings, so when we were limited company, we thought that Out Post wasn’t already taken which meant we were fine. And that wasn’t the case. It's not a copyright. So we traded as Out Post and there's another company called Out Post who wrote us the letter and said, don’t do that anymore. And so we kind of had a stressful six months in between getting that letter and then also opening our second location and doing the rebrand. I think it came from our first kind of visual heavy firs brand. Our first brand was very DIY, hand drawn. It kind of went with the pop-up aspect and then our graphic designer Cuddy, who does all our at work; the second time we wanted something a bit clean-cut, a bit more kind of fresh look maybe. M: Maybe more accessible or I think the idea behind the rebrand and the renaming of it was maybe that we were trying to build something that was more than a coffee shop, so Hard Lines isn't necessarily just that coffee shop. I think we were trying to build off of it. So maybe Hard Lines could have a line of merchandise or Hard Lines could be a club night or maybe Hard Lines could put a festival on or those sorts of things. Within that rebrand we were trying to pull what we’ve learnt from the year or the year and a half previous and for all of our education into this new look and try to look a little bit for the first time into the future and what might come in the next five years as opposed to what's about to happen or just happened. CH: So you mentioned that you've already opened up your second site. How soon after establishing this place did that happen? S: I think May 2016 we did our first pop-up and then we did a summer of doing festivals and things like that and then midway through October 2016 we opened in the castle emporium as our full-time shop then we got the go-ahead in the June 2017 for the market store and then we opened in October 2017. CH: Is the plan to keep expanding now? You've mentioned things like merchandise and festivals and club nights. Is that the route you want to take? M: Yes, the market thing was definitely something that even before we ended up here, we knew we wanted to do. I think we just really like that and it was really appealing to us. After the market opened and a couple of months later into Christmas and the other side and now, where we are now in 2018 is the first time we've had to sort of think about the next move maybe with a bit more clarity and try to work out where it is, so what the next thing is for us on a bigger scale really, whether there's another shop or some other plans that we've got in the pipeline and then alongside that we were running club nights and DJ’ing regularly and things like that. This is I think our time to think and really work out what the next five or ten years looks like and how to really grow, hopefully of what we've built over the last two years to make it into something bigger and more sort of suitable. CH: What do you think it is that has helped make your business such a success and what kind of promotion have you done to get yourself to this point? M: Promotionally getting the word out. I've definitely found a social media is definitely the avenue that we will maximise and that will be our target for promotion and how we get the word out there. I think that's a big thing and shouldn't be overlooked in any business really. I think social media goes far beyond any online sort of direct marketing. Social media would definitely be my promotional avenue and something we all try to concentrate on massively. CH: So to anyone that’s out there and they're listening and thinking these guys have done it, they’re living their dream! What advice would you give to anyone who's got an idea? And what top tips would you give them for going from an idea to a fully-fledged business? S: I think it's very easy to say and I do think we were really lucky. I think we're definitely lucky that there’s two of us. Whenever I speak to people who run business by themselves. I just bow down to them because we find it really tough and there's two of us. When we first started we didn't even have espresso machine. It was just like filter coffee and vinyl records in suitcases that we turned into racks, you know, like there wasn't a lot. Don't be limited by things. M: Yeah, ultimately your passion might carry it through as well. If you are passionate about that thing whether it’s records or coffee or beer or skating or whatever it is, usually your passion for that product or that thing will feed off of you on to your customers and they believe in you from that and they'll want to come and drink coffee with you or buy stuff from you, because you're trying to do something maybe a little bit different and you're trying to do something yourself. CH: You mentioned at the start as well that the reason any of this came about was that you’d gone off on your holiday. You were both quite disillusioned with what you were doing in your lives at the time. What's the best thing about having your own business? M: I guess being in control of it, so we can literally do what we want to an extent. That sort of freedom to express yourself and to be able to deliver something and offer something different. Doing what you want. If that doesn't sound too selfish. . CH: Doesn't sound selfish at all. That's fantastic. Yeah, is it kind of the same for you? S: Yeah, I think that's why we got into it. I guess that is probably what it is. It is hard work and it's long hours but we are getting to do what we want. CH: So I'm going ask you a few questions about Companies House as well. Were you aware of Companies House before you became a limited company? Have you seen any of our guidance or familiarised yourself with any kind of formation process through our website? S: Yeah, I think probably I did something really rudimental like Googling : how do I start a business? And then I think again, that's really the reason why we went down the limited company route. CH: You must have some pretty interesting stories that you've accumulated over the last few years, any that stand out that you'd like to share with anyone? S: We both attended Green Man festival. I'm a big fan of that. One of the first things we did there was approach people. Some would ask ‘would you like to come and work with us?. So we got to run a little pop up record shop at Green Man last year and DJ for a set so we got to go there and then we went to the festival and then we went back again this year and got to do coffee as well. M: Yeah, and we've had some great support generally from people within Cardiff and you know people who were at festivals, people like Huw Stephens, real big supporters of us who maybe a year or two ago, you'd think oh, you know that we'll never get across with some of these guys who are really making a difference in Cardiff and in the music scene or even within the coffee scene, you know, some of the people we are lucky enough to come across it's good and it's really cool. CH: So going forward is that kind of the plan to just sort of expand and get out across the festival's, moving outside of South Wales? M: Yeah, I think there's lots of different avenues. It seems like there's loads of things. I think something I'd like to explore more of is the market store. It seems like a really good avenue for this, as well as trying to create a really green, sustainable coffee shop that's really self-sufficient and it looks after itself and is doing all the correct things on that front. I think the idea of building something like that is really cool. I think definitely just from my perspective the coffee culture and education within coffee and Cardiff is a real big thing on my agenda. I think we can try to offer that in Cardiff and educate customers and people within the industry. That’s quite cool thing. CH: It seems like you've got the passion and determination. So I don't doubt that you won't succeed at that. Thank you very much for your time. I really appreciated the opportunity to chat with you and to sample your wonderful juice. M: Thank you. CH: I just want to say for anyone out there listening that we will be running a series of podcasts. So do listen out for more of those coming through. Thank you very much for listening and goodbye.

Companies House interviewer: Hi there. I'm here with Matthew and Sophie from Hard Lines an independent coffee shop based here in Cardiff, but a coffee shop with a twist. We'll just have a bit of a chat and find out a bit about you guys, so how did you meet and get things started with your business?

Matthew: University, I guess we met at University when we were both 22, we both went to uni in Cardiff Royal Welsh College of Music and Drama just up the road and we met there and I think it's probably like maybe two, maybe three years after we left university, I think we're starting to get a bit fed up what we were doing with work and I think we particularly both had like reasonably difficult Christmas’ around 2016, so then we took a holiday and then on that holiday, we sort of conceived the idea that we want to do something differently and leave what we were doing and maybe go in a different direction and then we came back and started that process.

CH: Okay, coffee, why, how? Where did that idea come from?

Sophie: We were sat in a coffee shop and talking about how we were kind of disillusioned with the work we're doing and Matt was talking about, you know, I would absolutely love to run a little coffee shop, well, you know, I would love to run a little Record Shop. I really like coffee, Matt’s really into music and records and then we were on the flight home and thought should we have a go for it? And then it just took off from there. I think we're really lucky we struck it at the right time.

M: Yeah, I think so. I like being surrounded by people who are keen to have that time. I think we were just in a little bubble of people and like a community there were willing to offer advice or help us build or do different aspects of what might need to be done to make it happen. We were lucky enough to have that as well. I think that probably gave us a little kick on.

CH: So what kind of advice were you given and where did it come from?

S: We're lucky. Over the past five years there's a really strong independent scene, especially in food and drink in Cardiff. We kind of came through at the same time and we worked alongside Luffkin, who are like a micro roastery and Early Bird who are bakery.

They'd both started about six months or so before us so we'd been going there as customers and we would chat with them and they were really open and helpful with everything, so you should speak to this person, you should do this or just go for it.

CH: So from a limited company point of view, obviously, you're registered as a limited company. Where did the decision to go down that route come from, was that advice given to you or did you search out for that information?

S: Yeah, we're both already soletraders because we were self-employed. We were looking at becoming a partnership, I think it was my base knowledge from GCSE business I said, I think a limited company is the right thing to do and so we looked it up and realised we ticked quite a lot of the boxes.

M: Yeah I think, thinking back from my perspective was the fact that we were starting with nothing. I think all we were starting with was we a tiny amount of our own money. The very beginning we didn't take any money from banks or anything like that. I don't know my logic behind it was that maybe if things didn’t go with the plan and we packed it in a couple of months later or six months later or a year later then, I know psychologically my head was there's less risk for some reason as a limited company which to this day I don't know if it’s correct or incorrect, but that's definitely what my logic was, so that's why I went with it.

CH: So how did you choose your company name Hard Lines? Where did it come from? What's the story behind your company name?

S: So we weren't called Hard Lines. We were called Out Post and I guess if we're talking about any mistakes or shortcomings, so when we were limited company, I think that not lack of educational side is like ‘Out Post’ that's not taken. That means we're fine. And that's not the case. It's not a copyright. So we traded as Out Post and there's another company called Out Post who wrote us the letter and said, don’t do that anymore. And so we kind of had a quick stressful six months in between getting that letter and then also opening our second location and doing the rebrand. I think it came from our first kind of visual heavy and our first brand was very DIY, hand drawn. It kind of went with the pop-up aspect and then our graphic designer Cuddy, who does all our at work; the second time we were like, we wanted something a bit clean-cut, a bit more kind of fresh looking maybe.

M: Maybe more accessible or I think the idea behind the rebrand and the renaming of it was maybe that we were trying to build something that was more than a coffee shop, so Hard Lines isn't necessarily just that coffee shop. I think we were trying to build off of it. So maybe Hard Lines could have a line of merchandise? or Hard Lines could be a club night or maybe Hard Lines could put a festival on or those sorts of things. Within that rebrand we were trying to pull what we’ve learnt from the year or the year and a half previous and for all of our education into this new sort of look and try to look a little bit for the first time into the future and what might come in the next five years as opposed to what's about to happen or just happened.

CH: So you mentioned that you've already opened up your second site. How soon after establishing this place did that happen?

S: I think May 2016 we did our first pop-up and then we did a summer of doing festivals and things like that and then midway through October 2016 we’ve opened in the castle emporium as our full-time shopThen we got the go-ahead in the June 2017 that we got in that market store and then we opened in October 2017.

CH: Is the plan to keep expanding now? You've mentioned things like merchandise and festivals and club nights. Is that the route you want to take?

M: Yes, the market things was definitely something that even before we ended up here. We definitely knew we wanted a little stand in the market. I think we just like that and it was really appealing to us. I think having like a little what we've got there basically and we tried for a little while before even coming here I think around the same time maybe to get into the market and I think we missed out on an occasion so the market was just a go and something we really wanted to hit and really wanted to get. After the market opened and a couple of months later into Christmas and the other side and now, where we are now in 2018 is the first time we've had to sort of think about the next move maybe with a bit more clarity and try to work out where it is, so what the next thing is for us on a bigger scale really, maybe whether there's another shop or some other plans that we've got in the pipeline and then alongside that we were running club nights and DJ’ing regularly and things like that. This is I think our time to think and really work out what the next five or ten years has and how to really grow, hopefully of what we've built over the last two years to make it into something bigger and more sort of suitable.

CH: What do you think it is that has helped make your business such a success and what kind of promotion have you done to get yourself to this point?

M: Promotionally getting the word out. I've definitely found a social media is definitely the avenue that we will maximise and that will be our target for promotion and how we get the word out there. I think that's a big thing and shouldn't be overlooked in any business really. I think social media goes far beyond any online sort of direct marketing like that or flypostering or anything. Social media would definitely be my promotional sort of avenue and something we all try to concentrate on massively.

CH: So to anyone that’s out there and they're listening and thinking these guys have done it, they’re living their dream! What advice would you give to anyone who's got an idea? And what top tips would you give them for going from an idea to a fully-fledged business?

S: I think it's very easy to say and I do think we were really lucky. I think we're definitely looking at those two of us. Whenever I speak to people who run business by themselves. I just bow down to them because you know we find it really tough and there's two of us. That's great. But like just do it. Definitely when we first started we didn't even have espresso machine. It was just like filter coffee and vinyl records in suitcases that we turned into racks, you know, like there wasn't a lot. I think don't be limited by things.

M: Yeah, ultimately your passion might carry it through as well. If you are passionate about that thing whether it’s records or coffee or beer or skating or whatever it is, usually your passion for that product or that thing will feed off of you on to your customers and they believe in you from that and they'll want to come and drink coffee with you or buy stuff from you or you know, cause you're trying to do something maybe a little bit different and you're trying to do something yourself.

CH: You mentioned at the start as well that the reason why it kind of came about you went off on your holiday . You were both quite disillusioned with what you were doing in your lives at the time. What's the best thing about having your own business?

M: I guess being in control of it, so we can literally do what we want to an extent. That sort of freedom to express yourself and to be able to deliver something and offer something different. Doing what you want. If that doesn't sound too selfish.

.

CH: Doesn't sound selfish at all. That's fantastic. Yeah, is it kind of the same for you?

S: Yeah, I think that's all we got into it. I guess that is probably what it is. It is hard work and it's long hours but we are getting to do what we want.

CH: So I'm going ask you a few questions about Companies House as well. Were you aware of Companies House before you became a limited company? Have you seen any of our guidance or familiarised yourself with any kind of formation process through our website?

S: Yeah, I think probably I did something really rudimental like Googling : how do I start a business? And then I think again, that's really the reason why we went down the limited company. It is the most legitimate kind of thing to be a limited business, but I remember I have been reading some PDFs and stuff on how to do it and things like that.

CH: You must have some pretty interesting stories that you've accumulated over the last few years, any that stand out that you'd like to share with anyone?

S: Go and get back here so like bang on doors and stuff. Like we both attended Green Man festival. I'm a big fan of that. One of the first things we did there was like, ‘Hey guys don't know if you care, but we're doing this and we really like you’ and they were like, that's awesome. Would you like to come and work with us? So we got to run a little pop of record shop at Green Man last year and DJ for like a settlement so we got to go there and then we go to the festival and then we go back again this year and do coffee as well.

M: Yeah, and we've had some great support generally from people within Cardiff and you know people who were at festivals maybe or Huw Stephens, real big like supporters of us who maybe a year or two ago, you'd think oh, you know that we'll never get across with some of these guys who are really making a difference in Cardiff and in the music scene or even within the coffee scene, you know, some of the people we are lucky enough to come across it's good and it's really cool.

CH: So going forward is that kind of the plan to just sort of expand and get out across the festival's, moving outside of South Wales?

M: Yeah,I think there's lots of different Avenues. It seems like there's loads of things. I think something I'd like to explore more of is the market store. It seems like a really good Avenue for this, but trying to create a real green sustainable coffee shop basically, that's really self-sufficient and it looks after itself and is doing all the correct things on that front. I think the idea of building something like that is really cool. I think definitely just from my perspective the coffee culture and education within coffee and Cardiff is a real big thing on my agenda. I think we can try to offer that in Cardiff and educate customers and people within the industry. That’s quite cool thing. I think to build a culture in Cardiff.

CH: It seems like you've got the passion and determination. So I don't doubt that you won't succeed at that. Thank you very much for your time. I really appreciated the opportunity to chat with you and to sample your wonderful juice?.

M: Thank you.

CH: I just want to say for anyone out there listening that we will be running a series of podcasts. So do listen out for more of those coming through. Thank you very much for listening and goodbye.