S1-Ep39_Nadine_and_Norma_Season1_close

Disabled Lives Matter

Season 1, Episode 39
Co-Hosts: Nadine Vogel & Norma Stanley
Guest: N/A

Intro: [Music playing in background] Disabled Lives Matter... here we go!

Voiceover: Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the disabled lives matter podcast with co-hosts Nadine Vogel and Norma Stanley… yay!

Nadine Vogel: Well Hello hello to all our listeners, this is nadine vogel and Norma Stanley, Norma say hey to everybody.

NORMA STANLEY: hey everyone how's it going.

Nadine Vogel: We, as you know, are your fabulous co hosts of disabled lives matter which is more than just a podcast, it is a movement, and you know I think thinking about this a lot norma I think we have created a movement.

NORMA STANLEY: I I really pray we did.

NORMA STANLEY: It is so much needed and the seems like it's starting to take some steam.

Nadine Vogel: yeah absolutely so first Norma, I would like to apologize to everyone for not being with all of you for thanksgiving so we.

Nadine Vogel: hope that you all had a fabulous thanksgiving holiday with friends with family that you got to eat lots of Turkey or whatever fixings that you like, I know that I was stuffed probably more so than the Turkey.

[laughter]

Nadine Vogel: How about you norma.

NORMA STANLEY: Oh absolutely I i'm still eating it i'm done with it now, though.

Nadine Vogel: Oh gosh no, we still have it ah, ya, yay.

Nadine Vogel: So what we thought we would do today is instead of having a guest we thought we would be our own guests.

Nadine Vogel: And have a conversation and I don't know how many of you have tuned in to this really cool program called disability in America it's being.

Nadine Vogel: Hosted by the Washington Post and the Ford foundation Frances Stead Sellers is the person she's a senior writer at the Washington Post and she's been interviewing individuals.

Nadine Vogel: And today, I just heard wasn't actually say but earlier, I heard one of the programs, and it was about how disability drives innovation.

NORMA STANLEY: mm hmm.

Nadine Vogel: and norma I thought wow that's like right up our alley right like we.

NORMA STANLEY: I love it.

Nadine Vogel: Really we've been talking about that, and they have three individuals on Sinead Burke, who does.

Nadine Vogel: adaptive let me think, I think, she does fashion and she has dwarfism and she does advocacy She then there was Wesley Hamilton so Sinead Burke Wesley Hamilton he does adapted physical training.

NORMA STANLEY: mm hmm.

Nadine Vogel: it's really cool he uses a wheelchair, and then Jeffrey Mansfield is deaf and is an architect.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: And so talking about different aspects of innovation.

Nadine Vogel: And one of the things that just really resonated with me and I thought it'd be good to talk about is you know when the A-D-A came out, it was it was the basic minimum right, it was.

NORMA STANLEY: That's right.

Nadine Vogel: Right and I get frustrated and I know you do norma about you know companies that tout well you know we're A-D-A you now compliant and we're A-D-A accessible, well like all right, so what.

Nadine Vogel: That's the law.

NORMA STANLEY: mm. hmm.

Nadine Vogel: Or if in another country meeting those minimum minimum guidelines and what they were talking about was you know amplification.

NORMA STANLEY: mm. hmm.

Nadine Vogel: Like in architecture amplify the design codes and the standards in the built environment so that it's not just compliant but it actually promotes delight.

NORMA STANLEY: That's right.

Nadine Vogel: It's not check the boxes let's create this amazing experience for people.

NORMA STANLEY: Exactly exactly and and why not I mean the population calls for this it's a huge population.

NORMA STANLEY: And.

NORMA STANLEY: You know it's not just individuals it's the network and there's a global network why not the families individuals make life easier for everyone.

Nadine Vogel: Absolutely, and you know it's funny because Jeffrey as he was talking about, I was imagining he's talking about airport someone had asked. A question about airports.

NORMA STANLEY: mm. hmm.

Nadine Vogel: And you do you remember the days when you were waiting for the plane, the only way you knew they were boarding was either you saw the mass exodus right going out the door to the plane, or they were on those you know handheld speakers which were hard to understand anyway.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: And announcing you know group A group B, but now you see them on screen as well.

NORMA STANLEY: Oh.

Nadine Vogel: So there's a screen above the door that says, you know now boarding this class or now recording group A group B so if someone is deaf or has hearing loss, they can just look at the screen.

NORMA STANLEY: Yup.

Nadine Vogel: Right so that it's it's there's multiple ways of providing access and I thought that that was really important and something Jeffrey said, we were talking about this minimum the minimum standards, and he said why can't we create maximum why.

NORMA STANLEY: Exactly.

Nadine Vogel: Why is it always have to be.

NORMA STANLEY: Bare miniumum.

Nadine Vogel: Right. Why aren't we looking at the culture of people with disabilities and it is a culture right.

NORMA STANLEY: Absolutely.

Nadine Vogel: Why don't we design.

Nadine Vogel: Tools and areas to uplift people.

NORMA STANLEY: That's right. Why don't they it just boggles my mind I.

NORMA STANLEY: don't understand it, I just don't.

Nadine Vogel: yeah it does and have you i'm sure you've experienced you know people say Oh, people with disabilities as if all disabilities are the same and all people.

NORMA STANLEY: Right.

Nadine Vogel: As if it's monolithic.

NORMA STANLEY: Right.

Nadine Vogel: As opposed to intersectional.

Nadine Vogel: Right. Because there are people who are deaf or blind with physical disability and some people don't have more than one.

NORMA STANLEY: That's right. And many people do.

Nadine Vogel: Ab absolutely, and so the question was you know how do we build with disability narrative in mind get away from that old medical model which A-D-A in some ways still although it's created amazing opportunities it's still in some ways, almost feels like the old medical model of disability.

Nadine Vogel: Right. So how do we, how do we look and create something that brings memory and brings culture and brings all kinds of narratives that really are truly representative of and positive for people with disabilities.

NORMA STANLEY: That's the $100,000 question i've gotta say.

NORMA STANLEY: You know.

NORMA STANLEY: Each of the various cultures that are out here who are fighting for their own individual space in society.

NORMA STANLEY: It was always a journey was always a process, it was definitely not overnight, and you know the disability Community now being one of the largest consumer segments, and as well as you know, a major population, they are now fighting for that voice and that space and um.

NORMA STANLEY: You know it's time for people to start to take notice and they are starting to take notice which is a good thing, which is one of the reasons why this whole Washington Post that took place.

NORMA STANLEY: But still, like you, like Mr. Mansfield said, while we still at the bare minimum it's been there's been enough people in the disability Community here in our society that should have been happening all along.

Nadine Vogel: Right.

NORMA STANLEY: But I guess, we have to start somewhere.

Nadine Vogel: Yeah, absolutely.

Nadine Vogel: Well The other thing I thought was really interesting so Wesley um is is someone who uses a wheelchair.

NORMA STANLEY. mm. hmm.

Nadine Vogel: He is disabled because he was shot with a bullet.

NORMA STANLEY. mm. hmm.

Nadine Vogel: You know.

Nadine Vogel: What I found fascinating, though, is that he was overweight his whole life, and I think about he does he deals with accessible gyms.

NORMA STANLEY. Yes.

Nadine Vogel: Physical fitness working out with a disability. Right and I think calls it adapted athletics, but he said he was overweight his entire life it wasn't until he became disabled and using a wheelchair that he got into shape.

NORMA STANLEY. Wow.

Nadine Vogel: Now, think of how in many ways that's the opposite of what most people think right. Most people think if you become disabled and you start using a wheelchair you're not going to exercise.

NORMA STANLEY. Right.

Nadine Vogel: Right.

Nadine Vogel: You really have to watch what you eat because you're just going to blow up and get big and he said that because of his lack of physical acuity.

NORMA STANLEY: uh huh.

Nadine Vogel: When he became disabled he was so out of shape.

NORMA STANLEY: mm hmm.

Nadine Vogel: That that in and of itself became disabling.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: Right. And that's what really forced him to realize, you can and need to be in great physical shape you're going to be, you know operating a wheelchair you're going to be doing all these things.

Nadine Vogel: So it was fascinating and he was talking about how gyms and all kinds of related facilities and not accessible to people with disabilities.

Nadine Vogel: And at springboard um our team that does physical accessibility audit we've had an opportunity, many times to when we're on a company's campus to see their company gyms.

NORMA STANLEY: mm hmm.

Nadine Vogel: And it's always fascinating to see the inaccessibility.

NORMA STANLEY: They don't they don't think about it again I don't think they really notice when they're building these places, whether it's a you know development, the housing development or real estate place.

NORMA STANLEY: Things they they don't have people who understand what's needed as part of that planning process today.

NORMA STANLEY: And you would think that they would remember.

Nadine Vogel: Yes.

NORMA STANLEY: To do that.

Nadine Vogel: You would think.

NORMA STANLEY: You would think.

Nadine Vogel: You would think so, the other, the other topic that that they focused on was fashion and the fashion industry and stayed all about that, and she works with the fashion industry.

Nadine Vogel: Um so something she said that really resonated with me and she said that the the fashion industry is one that creates and cultivates culture.

NORMA STANLEY: mm. hmm.

Nadine Vogel: Right you think of all the magazines fashion magazines right.

NORMA STANLEY: That's right.

Nadine Vogel: So if if that industry is really setting the benchmark for culture.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: That industry is ignoring people with disabilities.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: Right then there you go.

Nadine Vogel: So.

Nadine Vogel: You know, we have a lot of adaptive fashion, now that has come about.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: But again, she made a really good point is like okay so we're creating this adaptive fashion, but are we also ensuring that the fashion designers of people with disabilities.

NORMA STANLEY: Right.

Nadine Vogel: Right the various suppliers, the various parts of that supply chain.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: So that. It's considered all the way around.

NORMA STANLEY: That's right.

Nadine Vogel: And why is the general design and then adaptive Why is it, why don't we think about adopted more universally and she gave a great example I started laughing and she and I know you relate to this.

NORMA STANLEY: Uh huh.

Nadine Vogel: So she used the example for women or anyone who chooses to wear a dress.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: The zipper is always in the back.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: Right so she said, who design dresses with zippers in the back. men, because she said, the idea was you know if you're if you're a woman by yourself, you know you probably have to be contortionists to try to unzip that dress.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: Right.

Nadine Vogel: So the assumption is, you would have a husband someone with you.

NORMA STANLEY: Um hmm.

Nadine Vogel: That could do that.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: Now I don't know about you i've been in hotels and you know countries even like India, where it's really not appropriate and i've gone to the front desk and asked could you zip this up for me.

[laughter]

Nadine Vogel: So she made a really good point and said so, it would not be a don't, we have to adapt that and that's for everybody.

NORMA STANLEY: That's for everybody.

Nadine Vogel: That's just not just for people with disabilities um the other thing she made a really good point of was where does the fashion industry, employment, where we see fashion industry, employment, most of the time it's in the retail world.

NORMA STANLEY: Like going to the malls store.

Nadine Vogel: But other retailers really thinking about accessibility are they thinking about their flooring so it's more accessible to people.

NORMA STANLEY: Right.

Nadine Vogel: And it was it was just it was you know it didn't tell me and i'm sure if i'm saying anything to you that you didn't already know.

NORMA STANLEY: Right.

Nadine Vogel: But the fact that they were putting it out there.

NORMA STANLEY: That's what I love about it, I think it's really helpful to have you know, a major outlet like the Washington Post and the Ford foundation.

NORMA STANLEY: To make that possible.

NORMA STANLEY: And that it's a continuing conversation that's important.

Nadine Vogel: Right.

NORMA STANLEY: And it's bringing a level of prejudice to do it to to how important the disability community and how significant they are.

Nadine Vogel: Right.

NORMA STANLEY: You know, in our society, and people need to know that.

Nadine Vogel: Right.

Nadine Vogel: Because you think about the Tommy hilfiger line let's just use that as an example.

NORMA STANLEY: mm hmm.

Nadine Vogel: Their first line was for kids. with disabilities.

Nadine Vogel: For adaptive clothing well what if it's not the child that has a disability, but it's the mom or dad.

NORMA STANLEY: Right and children grow up.

Nadine Vogel: Right. So how do we, how do we connect the dots and ensure that we're just all we all wear clothes.

NORMA STANLEY: Always.

Nadine Vogel: Right.

Nadine Vogel: We should all be seen as customers and you know how do we do this in a way that systematic.

NORMA STANLEY: mm hmm.

Nadine Vogel: It's sustainable.

Nadine Vogel: You know what does that look like and how do we ensure that the businesses, even beyond fashion right that that they're doing that.

NORMA STANLEY: Right.

Nadine Vogel: And some words that you know that she brought up that again not new but equitable just creative and accessible for all, and I think you know that that says it right, because you know I had the opportunity to work with the Hilfiger line, and you know.

Nadine Vogel: You know. For Sierra right.

Nadine Vogel: How you. What you wear affects how you feel.

NORMA STANLEY: Absolutely absolutely i'm a big proponent of dressing up and looking good.

Nadine Vogel: I know you are, cause you because I've seen you.

[laughter.]

Nadine Vogel: You are always looking hot. babe.

NORMA STANLEY: I thank you very much.

Nadine Vogel: And Sierra by the way.

NORMA STANLEY: Exactly Sierra does not leave the house in anything but you know, on top of a fashion game that's just the way we are, and you know.

NORMA STANLEY: Just because she's in a wheelchair doesn't mean she can't look and she knows the difference when she looks like just regular, which is that on something that's designer or looking something really cool.

NORMA STANLEY: She knows it. And and and she she has a different air about her when she's dressed up.

Nadine Vogel: Exactly exactly and so take that out of fashion for a second.

NORMA STANLEY: mm hmm.

Nadine Vogel: And think about when a business creates you know, an accessible bathroom.

Nadine Vogel: Right and they make it. to code.

NORMA STANLEY: mm hmm.

Nadine Vogel: It's not pretty typically they're not putting the pretty in it like you see in some of these you know beautiful hotels luxury hotels. Right.

NORMA STANLEY: Right.

Nadine Vogel: And and and again, why not if there's an accessible restroom why doesn't that one have full length mirrors, why is that always just the smaller one right assuming you're in a wheelchair, like those are the kinds of things that nobody's thinking about.

NORMA STANLEY: Nope.

NORMA STANLEY: And that's what I need people like us.

[laughter.]

Nadine Vogel: You got that right. babe.

Nadine Vogel: You got that right.

NORMA STANLEY: Cause we think about it all the time.

Nadine Vogel: Right, and so, how do we move from I mean I know i'm always talking to companies that you know how do you move from compliance not just to best practices, but even just better practices, improved practices right next practices, you know the best practice thing is kind of old.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: Right.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah it is, but you know, I guess with any kind of a real change.

NORMA STANLEY: It starts with the top.

Nadine Vogel: Absolutely.

NORMA STANLEY: And the leaders of these companies are still resisted in many ways the same, I mean that's why the whole D-E-I thing is still still has to be addressed, because the leaders of these companies are still not truly committed.

NORMA STANLEY: The same thing just made from top down.

Nadine Vogel: Too you know company leaders talk about innovation, all the time they need innovation, and now they certainly need employees right.

Nadine Vogel: But. They need innovation um people with disabilities are so innovative, they have to be.

NORMA STANLEY: They have to be. Yes.

Nadine Vogel: I see you see it in Sierra I know I see it in my own daughter and colleagues and friends right they have to be innovative, so if we take a step back and realize that disability in and of itself and people with disabilities can drive innovation.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: My gosh shouldn't we have more people with disabilities.

Nadine Vogel: At the table.

NORMA STANLEY: Participating.

Nadine Vogel: For everything we talked about.

NORMA STANLEY: Exactly exactly.

Nadine Vogel: Someone said to me, nothing about us without us kind of thing.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: And it's it's, how do we ensure that we're, including the voices and not just the voices, we want to hear but.

Nadine Vogel: All voices and and I think this applies to race it applies to sexual orientation,

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: Right because, again, equity, as I always say it's not about treating everyone the same but rather by giving everyone the same opportunities.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes. Absolutely.

Nadine Vogel: But. We have to bring them to the table to do that.

NORMA STANLEY: We do, and let them be free enough to actually speak give them the know the authority.

NORMA STANLEY: To be able to feel comfortable.

Nadine Vogel: Yeah.

NORMA STANLEY: To say that's wrong.

Nadine Vogel: Right. Absolutely.

Nadine Vogel: You know what disability disabilities do matter. Right.

Nadine Vogel: And I think that you know when I think about this first season, I mean you know it's it's it's interesting because we're concluding our first season of the pilot.

NORMA STANLEY: I know. Right.

Nadine Vogel: And I still feel like oh my gosh you're talking about the first episode.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: So we're concluding the first season and I.

Nadine Vogel: I think about all the people that we've interviewed.

NORMA STANLEY: mm hmm.

Nadine Vogel: I you know I feel like a mom you know I can't pick which one's my favorite.

NORMA STANLEY: I know there have been some awesome guests.

Nadine Vogel: For all and and what makes these guests so awesome is what they have done, not in spite of but because of their disability.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: And and and taking that and run with it, and I just hope that our listeners who don't have disabilities, really, really, you know pay pay heed to that.

Nadine Vogel: And really get that you know.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah yeah when my daughter, and I were at NBC the other day, because she had an opportunity to be an extra on NBC TV show that's going to be airing in January.

NORMA STANLEY: And one of the production assistants, and it was a room full of people with disabilities, of all types across the spectrum and he was going on, he said he never seen that many people with disabilities that he didn't know hw didn't realize.

NORMA STANLEY: That so many different.

Nadine Vogel: Wow.

NORMA STANLEY: So. that's what I said.

NORMA STANLEY: Wow. That was interesting he was a young man, he was maybe about 25.

Nadine Vogel. Right.

NORMA STANLEY: He was very curious about how the people either acquired it or was it that they had and how they were living in doing that everybody in the room, were doing the thing I mean.

NORMA STANLEY: They were doing their thing, and he.

NORMA STANLEY: It encouraged him and it made him curious.

Nadine Vogel: Well what's interesting though about that Norma is that you know one hand i'm like does he live under a rock like.

NORMA STANLEY: I know. Right. That's what I said.

Nadine Vogel: But on the other hand, if companies are not hiring enough people with disabilities.

NORMA STANLEY: RIght.

Nadine Vogel: He's certainly not seeing them as colleagues.

NORMA STANLEY: Exactly.

Nadine Vogel: Right and you spend you know a good chunk of your day working.

NORMA STANLEY: That's right.

Nadine Vogel: And if we're not doing more to have people with disabilities in the media, so when he is you know i'm you know watching streaming.

Nadine Vogel: TV watching movies he's not.

Nadine Vogel: You know, so I went hand i'm like wow and the other hand, and like. Ugh.

Nadine Vogel: It just reinforces what we have to do.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah.

Nadine Vogel: So with that I just want it well, first of all I want to say thank you. You are an amazing co-host.

Nadine Vogel: I love doing this with you.

NORMA STANLEY: Yeah i'm having a great time too.

Nadine Vogel: This is, this is just.

Nadine Vogel: terrific and and you know I certainly want to wish our guests our viewers or listeners a fabulous fabulous holiday season of health and wealth and happiness and going into having the most amazing 2022.

Nadine Vogel: Absolutely absolutely.

Nadine Vogel: And I certainly hope that this podcast can contribute to that at least in a small way.

Nadine Vogel: Right. To people so um I also want to say happy and healthy holidays New Year to you and to Sierra.

NORMA STANLEY: Thank you, same to you.

Nadine Vogel: I just I can't believe it's December oh my.

NORMA STANLEY: I know. The year slipped by.

Nadine Vogel: I know and and to our audience, we will be back live on January Thursday January 20.

Nadine Vogel: And we look forward for you to rejoin us please tell your friends tell your colleagues tell everyone, you know, this is an important topic.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: Like like Norma I always say at the beginning it's not just a podcast it's a movement.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: And we need you all of you to help us move this along and grow.

NORMA STANLEY: Absolutely and it's going to grow with with you or without you.

Nadine Vogel: Hopefully with you.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes. Hopefully with you.

[laughter.]

Nadine Vogel: So with that Happy healthy New Year everybody norma I love you.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

Nadine Vogel: I can't wait to see on.

Nadine Vogel: January 20.

NORMA STANLEY: Yes.

NORMA STANLEY: And look forward to it.

Nadine Vogel: We'll talk then bye bye everybody.

NORMA STANLEY: Have a blessed holiday bye bye.

Closing comment: [Music playing in background.] Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the podcast. Make sure to tune in on Thursday, January 20th when we kick-off Season 2 of Disabled Lives Matter. You know it's not just a podcast, it's a movement. So with that to all our listeners. Happy Holidays. Happy New Year. May it be filled with love, joy and blessings. See you next year.

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