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015: Are Screens Going to Melt My Kid’s Brain?

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Manage episode 155212260 series 1150133
Content provided by Ben Toalson and Rachel Toalson - A weekly podcast on balancing family life with a creative pursuit.. All podcast content including episodes, graphics, and podcast descriptions are uploaded and provided directly by Ben Toalson and Rachel Toalson - A weekly podcast on balancing family life with a creative pursuit. or their podcast platform partner. If you believe someone is using your copyrighted work without your permission, you can follow the process outlined here https://player.fm/legal.

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Growing up, we had a fairly neutral relationship with screens. It was regulated like almost anything else we used to pass the time as kids. With today’s technological advances and the increasing usefulness of screens, combined with the information we consume about the negative effects of screens on child development, it’s easy to be very hard-lined about the use of screens. Maybe you’re a parent who allows your child to use screens all the time.

Ultimately, this conversation is not about screens, but about the values through which we approach the use of screens. Ben and Rachel go to the deeper issue and talk about how we can help our children develop a healthy relationship with the ever growing landscape of screen technology and avoid the struggle of negotiating screen time altogether.

Highlights, Takeaways, & Quick Wins

  • Screens aren’t good or bad—it’s how they’re used.
  • Too much exposure to screens between birth and age 2 changes a lot of a child’s developmental processes.
  • Beyond two years old, most pediatricians recommend no more than two hours of screen exposure a day.
  • We don’t have to put our kids in front of Baby Einstein to ensure they’re smartthey’re going to be smart anyway.
  • What values do you have and how do those values influence the way you use screens?
  • If you’re going to put limits on screen time, make the distinction between consuming and creating.
  • The time you spend on consuming comes at the cost of the time you could be creating things.
  • Speak to your children’s values about screens early on so later their tendency will be to use them for creating things.
  • When our focus is on creation, what we consume tends to add value to what we’re creating.
  • Screens can be a tool for children to express the beauty and imagination that’s inside them.
  • The more exposure kids have to screens, the more they become numb to it.
  • Ask yourself: how can technology be used to help my kids become better creators?
  • 04:44 Ben: This is a touchy subject for some and not so much for others. I would categorize it as one of the things we as parents don’t really like to hear advice from other parents about. It’s a, “You can talk to me about other things, but don’t talk to me about that. Mind your own business,” kind of thing. If you’re listening to this episode, hopefully we’re not that voice for you. I think you’ll find that we have an interesting take. Before we get into it, I wanted to talk a little bit about our own personal experiences when we were growing up—what our relationships with screens were.
  • 05:37 When I was growing up, we had a good three to four hours of television, usually programed cartoons, that we could watch each day. Sometimes we would sit down and watch, but sometimes we would decide to go outside. It felt really interchangeable—it was just another activity. Then, we got an Atari video game system and I had the game Pitfall, but I still don’t remember spending a whole lot of time playing video games. It felt pretty well balanced. I had a lot of outdoor playtime playing with friends in the neighborhood. I do remember on Fridays sometimes watching “TIGF”, which was six or seven Disney cartoons.
  • 06:59 My parents divorced when I was young and when I was about 14, I decided to move in with my dad. It was a similar situation, where I didn’t spend a whole lot of time watching TV. I spent most of my time hanging out with friends and it felt balanced, but TV was definitely a presence in our home. It was something that was just there.
  • 07:29 Rachel: I grew up the daughter of a librarian, so rather than television, we were encouraged to read books. My parents divorced when I was 11 and I grew up poor since it was just my mom taking care of the three of us. We never had enough money to have cable and stuff like that. I think back then there was a station that had cartoons that wasn’t part of cable.
  • 08:09 Ben: I can’t remember any specific cartoon, but PBS had educational cartoons on most of the time during the earlier part of the day and later in the day it got into stuff like Bob Ross painting.
  • 08:30 Rachel: I didn’t spend a whole lot of time with television, I was usually outside in a hammock reading. I enjoyed Thundercats, but that’s the only show I can remember.

Screens Aren’t Good or Bad—It’s How They’re Used

  • 11:08 Ben: I feel like both of us growing up didn’t really hear the message of, “Screens are bad,” and I would say because of the way Rachel was encouraged, she probably spent less time watching a screen than I did. We also grew up in a time where really the only screen available was the television. Later years, the PC came along.
  • 11:32 Rachel: Even then, it was used for word processing. It wasn’t the thing of computers today.
  • 11:40 Ben: It’s a very different environment today. I felt like I had a very balanced relationship with screens, in part probably because of the limited access to different forms of media. As parents, we got to this place where the message we were believing and sharing was that screens are bad. Some parents tend to go there because there’s new research on the effect of screens on children and their development. There are things we should be aware of, but I don’t want parents to be scared into a false relationship with screens because of information out there. What we’re going to get into is going to boarder the rule vs. the spirit of the rule.
  • 13:15 Rachel: I have a love/hate relationship with the relationship between screens and children, because we’re the first parenting generation growing up in the whole world of screens everywhere. They use iPads in school instead of computers. My kindergartener plays games in school with an iPad. It’s so crazily different than what it used to be.
  • 14:03 Ben: I want to encourage you to do your own research on child development and screens, but here are some things to keep in mind. Between when a child is born and the age of two, there’s a lot of stuff happening developmentally in their brain.

Too much exposure to screens between birth and age 2 changes a lot of a child’s developmental processes.

  • 14:58 It can cause adverse effects in their ability to learn or control their emotions down the road. If you think about a baby’s relationship with the world, everything is all senses—what they see, hear, touch, smell, and taste. Everything is connected, that’s why they put stuff in their mouth all the time. All of these tactile experiences are the ways they learn. When a parent throws a ball, kids see it leaving their hand, they follow it with their eyes, and they watch it roll away from them, there’s a ton of stuff happening there. They’re learning about distance, gravity, and the way things function. When they’re watching the same thing happen on a television screen, especially with multiple camera angles, they’ll see the ball leave the hand and then the hand disappears.
  • 16:00 You can see the ball again, but now the person is standing far away—see how disorienting that is? With children ages two and younger, don’t just limit, but try to avoid any exposure to screens as much as possible. It’s just going to mess with their development during that time. Beyond two years old, most pediatricians recommend no more than two hours of screen exposure a day. Our family goes shorter than that, if at all.
  • 16:45 Rachel: I want to give some hope to the parents who have maybe already let their younger than two year olds watch TV. We had the Noggin channel or Nick Jr., with our first born and he watched that. He would watch Baby Einstein and Your Baby Can Read, which I let him watch in the name of education. When our second son was born, we didn’t do any of that with him and he learned to read and write at the same exact time as our first born, who had watched all of those things. I think marketing can make parents feel like they have to do things for their infant, or else he’s not going to be smart. That’s what they prey on. I want to set us free from that.

We don’t have to put our kids in front of Baby Einstein to ensure they’re smart—they’re going to be smart anyway.

  • 18:05 Ben: I don’t want to say these things as a way of imposing how to do things, but understand there’s research out there that’s been tested. Don’t ignore that data.
  • 18:23 Rachel: At the same time, if you’ve already done this with your child, it’s never too late to stop.
  • 18:31 Ben: I don’t want to be on the side of the argument that says screens are bad, but I’m also don’t want to be on the side that says screens are good—it’s neutral. It’s how it’s used. The extremists argue that it’s unnatural, but in this modern age, we rely on a lot of things that are “unnatural”, like electricity, plumbing, modern transportation, etc. All of these things have been developed to make life easier. When they’re misused, obviously, there are consequences to that. When screens aren’t used correctly, they can have negative impacts, but when they’re used correctly, they can be helpful. The reality is we’re in a time where screens are a part of our daily experience.

Consumer vs. Creator

  • 20:21 Screens will continue to be a part of our daily lives in an increasing way, especially for our children. Coming to grips with that reality helps us to move to the more important conversation: what are our values? This isn’t a question about the screen itself, it’s about values. What values do you have and how do those values influence the way you use screens? The two things that help us are consumer vs. creator. I had coffee with Sean, of the seanwes podcast, and something he said really got my wheels turning and shaped the direction this topic was going to take. He held up his iPhone and said, “These are made for consuming.”
  • 21:59 I realized it, the apps, and the programs it uses are designed to help us consume more efficiently in a lot of ways. That’s not the only thing they’re used for; there are apps that allow you to learn and create, but for the most part it is a consumption device. A lot of that is driven by the demand. People like consuming information and they like consuming television, otherwise why would cable or Netflix exist? Consumption isn’t necessarily a bad thing—it’s good to learn things and be entertained.

The time you spend on consuming comes at the cost of the time you could be creating things.

  • 22:57 The value we have that plays a part in our relationship with screens is that we see ourselves as creative people. We want to produce things that add value and beauty to the world. Consuming things can be fulfilling, like when you watch a movie and it was very well produced and the acting was great. You can get some fulfillment out of consuming things and it can make your life better, but when you create things, there’s a different kind of fulfillment.
  • 23:54 I would say a more powerful, longer-lasting fulfillment comes from creating, because it’s seeing something you’ve created go out into the world and add beauty to peoples’ lives. If we’re purposeful about it, that value can drive our relationship with screens in a way such that we don’t have to put these strict rules on how much time kids are allowed to use screens. We do want to be careful about when our children are developmentally ready to handle time with screens.

Speak to your children’s values about screens early on so later their tendency will be to use them for creating things.

  • 25:18 Rachel: It’s a good middle-of-the-road route, because I tend to take the extreme of not wanting our kids to have any access to screens. When I heard they were using iPads in kindergarten, I was like, “Oh my gosh, no!” but I think you balance me out a little bit. These things can be used for creativity. I work on a computer for five hours a day writing. I actually just recently started writing everything by computer instead of by hand.
  • 26:17 Ben: What was your fear in making that switch initially? Why did you stick so long with writing on paper vs. using a computer?
  • 26:26 Rachel: I think because my brain works really fast and when my hand has to keep up, it doesn’t have as much time to correct as I’m going so I’m not self-editing. I type super fast because I was a journalist and I used to take notes when people were talking, but I found you can train yourself to do these things. Whenever I would write by hand for an hour and a half, I could probably write 3,000 words, and when I moved to the computer, that was doubled. When I was doing it by hand, I also didn’t have the time to transcribe it all. It would probably take me an hour and a half to transcribe everything I wrote by hand for an hour. The time saved was enough for me to be ok with my kids creating on a screen. Our eight year old already draws and writes comic books. He could create those more quickly and efficiently on a computer.
  • 27:45 Ben: There’s a beautiful relationship there too between physical creation and digital creation. A lot of times artists will start out with the physical side of things, and even though Rachel is focusing more on writing on the computer, she still starts her day writing by hand in her journal. That act of physically writing does something in your mind that allows you to experience more creativity when you bring it to digital. When I see that with the kids, it’s something I want to encourage.
  • 28:22 Rachel: It’s also a keepsake. I’ll be keeping all of those books in his original eight year old handwriting.
  • 28:32 Ben: I love the idea of them understanding the tools they’re working with on the computer and being able to take something that’s in their imagination, and see it come to life. They can do some of that by hand, and depending on what they want to see come to life, they may need the digital component to make it possible. When we think about it this way, the argument isn’t about the screen, it’s about what you’re going to create and the tools used to do that.

  • 29:11 Rachel: On the other side, we have seen the addictive part of screens too. We’ve seen it in our own lives too with a phone that has social media, email, and games on it. My Facebook app actually just stopped working and I never fixed it. I feel so much better because of it. There’s potential for all of that to become very addicting and we saw this happen with our six year old, Asa, just the other night when he and Ben were designing something on the computer.
  • 30:07 Ben: He did get upset, but that was more because he wanted to finish it. There was a great lesson there though, because sometimes for our one-on-one time, they’ll tell me what they want and I’ll make it for them on the computer. This time, I had him sit down and I coached him while he was working in Photoshop trying to make a lego ninja. It was fun teaching him how to use the tools and taking him through the basics, but our time was up before he was able to finish making it and he got upset about that. I had shown him a timelapse video of an art piece I had done a year ago and when he calmed down, I reminded him of the video and told him it took me a really long time to make and that I didn’t do it all at once.
  • 31:26 I explained to him how I would work on it a little bit and then I’d run out of time and just have to leave it, then I’d come back to it and work on it a little more. I love the lesson of pacing. Sometimes we’re so eager to see what’s in our head come to life so much that we shortcut it and we don’t give ourselves the time we need. The great artists are the ones who have learned to be patience with that process, not seeing something happen instantly. I don’t want the ease of use when making things digitally to send a false message to my kids that the artistic process can be cut short. You need to let the inspiration marinate a little bit; you need to work on it and then leave it before coming back to it later with a fresh perspective. That’s what makes your art more beautiful and meaningful.
  • 32:40 Rachel: Ben does one-on-one time with the boys on the computer, but I try to do different things with them.

When I’m sharing a screen with my child, I feel like I’m not actually sharing the experience with him because screens can be so addicting to kids.

  • 33:11 Ben: I would prefer to have some separate time for learning and teaching screen stuff than our personal, on-on-one time. I would like to protect that personal time. Another thing we don’t think about, and this is something I struggle with a lot, is when we do share something that we’ve created, we get a big boost from feedback. With social media, you can get a thumbs-up, hearts, likes, and comments and that by itself can become a form of addition—it’s instant feedback. You used to be able to make something, put it out there, and maybe experience in person that someone liked it or maybe you put it out there and never heard back from anyone. The fulfillment of having created something was enough. That’s another piece of the value I really want to pass on. Getting instant feedback through screens is something I really want to help my kids avoid.
  • 35:12 This can be some rough water, but it’s definitely a conversation worth having that’s focused around your values as it relates to being a consumer or creator, not a rule or ideal. People who are consumers by habit tend to lead less fulfilling lives because it’s the stuff they have in their lives that adds value for them. People who are creators tend to lead lives that are more fulfilling because it’s what they’re sharing that adds value to their own life. When you share something, it’s not just a one-time thing—it’s out there now. That’s the value I want my kids to have when it comes to screens, when they’re old enough and ready. Even our eight year old is old enough to start learning how to use this technology to get what’s inside his heart and head out into the world. That’s really what it should be about.
  • 36:37 Rachel: Talking about the consumer-nature, I would also say that, maybe because I’m a writer, everything I “consume” like books or movies is also informing my art. It’s really important for me to be careful about the things I consume.

When our focus is on creation, what we consume tends to add value to what we’re creating.

  • 37:14 Rachel: Our eight year old basically wants to be George Lucas. If we can curate the things he’s consuming, then that can push him in the right direction for the creative-nature of work he wants to do.

How Do I Explain My Work on the Computer to My Child?

  • 38:06 Ben: If we want our kids to approach technology with those kinds of values, we’ve got to demonstrate those as parents. I totally relate to the question Adam Hayman asks, “Being that my job is entirely on a computer, I can see a child wondering why I don’t get a limit on my own screen time. How would you explain that to them in a way that makes sense?” Show them what that screen time is producing. The second part of that question isn’t as fun, but as the adult, you know better for them how much screen time they should have than they do. It’s one of those things like, “I know I spend a lot of time with screens, but that’s because daddy is an adult.”
  • 39:22 I think we’ll have to do a whole episode on the answer, “Because I’m a grownup.” That answer is valid and true most of the time, but it’s not very satisfying for kids. I would say to lean more heavily on showing them what you do and what you make on the computer. Making that connection for them is a great way to demonstrate the power of using those tools for creation vs. consuming.
  • 39:57 Rachel: Some jobs or creative pursuits are easier to show than others. It’s hard for me to show them a computer screen with all the words I wrote on it, but Ben can show them a picture. I have read them some of the picture books I’m working on.
  • 40:30 Ben: The bottom line is it’s not about the screen, it’s about the value through which you use screens. That’s really going to make the difference. I don’t think anyone wants their child to grow up to be a couch potato that watches TV all day. We have to keep in mind the practical things we’ve learned through study and research, but:

Screens can be a tool for children to express the beauty and imagination that’s inside them.

  • 41:45 Rachel: We also fiercely work to protect family time from screens. That’s not even necessarily television screens because we have a weekly family movie night, but screens on phones or iPads, or even phone calls and texts. We set a time limit on our day and say, “After this time, we put away our phones.” We don’t always succeed at that because there are emergencies and things like that, but it’s been helpful for our marriage and our family.
  • 42:39 Ben: Scott asked, “How much screen time should you allow before telling your children it’s time to do something else? During the summer, my mom would give me and my brother ‘tickets.’ We could spend the tickets on 30 minutes of screen time. I think we were given two hours a day if I remember correctly.” I think we already answered his questions, but I thought his story was fun.
  • 43:07 Rachel: Summertime is hard. When we started the summer, we had a rule that if they wanted to use technology for a time, there were things they needed to do first. The temptation there is because they’re not in school, they’ll sit around and watch shows all day or play on the computer. Our kids are really young still, so they don’t even have the option unless mom and dad say yes.

Should Educational or Creative Screen Time Be Limited?

  • 44:34 Ben: Adam asks, “Should screen time be limited if what they’re doing is productive, like playing educational or creative games, making art, etc?” If you’re going to put limits on screen time, make the distinction between consuming and creating. If you’re going to put an overall limit, like no more than two hours a day, you could say 30 minutes of the two hours is for an entertainment show, but an hour and half is for creating things. Divide it however you want, but put an overall time limit. That way, you don’t relegate all of their creative time just to technology. Some of that creativity has to happen in more tangible ways.
  • 45:36 Rachel: I tend to take a conservative side on this and say, even if they’re creating on a screen, it needs to be limited at a certain point. I like to send the boys outside so they can run off some energy and there’s research that says screens can stimulate the brain and make kids more energetic. We’ve definitely seen that when we’ve watched a movie together at night. It takes them twice as long to fall asleep because there’s something about the screen and the bright light. There’s also a lot of research saying not to look at screens before you go to bed.
  • 46:18 Ben: The hard thing about this is the more exposure kids have to screens, they become numb to it. We had some good friends that had screens on in every room in the house all the time, and it become like white noise for their kids. They almost didn’t notice it. It’s kind of like junk food: your body can get used to eating junk food. If you’re eating healthy food a lot, and then eat junk food, your body can freak out over it. TV can be the same way. There have been a couple of days where we need to clean the house and we put on like five hours of TV, which is awful. We notice a difference then. It’s the sustained use of it that can become more harmful and set them on a path we don’t really want for them.
  • 47:34 Rachel: When I think about limiting screen time, I think about us as workers. If all we’re doing is sitting in front of a screen without any breaks, then we’re not creating as well as we might otherwise.
  • 48:08 Ben: There are health implications there too. Doctors recommend getting up every 45 minutes or an hour to take a break.

Schedule Family Screen Time

  • 48:43 Adam asks, “Do you have any tips on family screen time? Being in front of a screen can be an inherently solo activity. What ways can the family be brought together by a screen rather than be isolated by it?” I’d like to be better about this personally. I have a tendency to watch shows on Netflix on my own, but I do that while I’m in bed with Rachel and she’s reading a book. Even though I’m with her, I’m still kind of doing that alone. The shared experience of consuming something great makes for great conversation later. To answer this question: be intentional about scheduling and setting aside time family screen time. Make it a special thing and maybe add some stuff on the tail end of it where you talk about it, or discuss a lesson learned from it.
  • 50:12 Rachel: Pile on the same couch where you’re actually touching each other.
  • 50:20 Ben: There’s some ritual that’s built into our family movie nights. I always make homemade popcorn, so there’s the experience of smelling it and everyone fighting over which cup they get.
  • 50:42 Charla asks, “What apps do you find helps their creativity? Right now my favorite is Toontastic. It’s taught my kids how to tell stories with an actual story arc.” I have to confess that we actually don’t have any apps on our phones or iPad that we’ve allowed our children to use yet. We haven’t even had those conversations, but I love the direction this question is going. It’s almost like she’s assuming if she’s going to give her kid an iPad or screen, it’s so they can learn something that becomes useful in their ability to create. I want to encourage people to think about the technology their kids have access to that way. How can technology be used to help our kids become better creators?
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Archived series ("Inactive feed" status)

When? This feed was archived on February 07, 2020 16:09 (4y ago). Last successful fetch was on February 06, 2017 18:03 (7y ago)

Why? Inactive feed status. Our servers were unable to retrieve a valid podcast feed for a sustained period.

What now? You might be able to find a more up-to-date version using the search function. This series will no longer be checked for updates. If you believe this to be in error, please check if the publisher's feed link below is valid and contact support to request the feed be restored or if you have any other concerns about this.

Manage episode 155212260 series 1150133
Content provided by Ben Toalson and Rachel Toalson - A weekly podcast on balancing family life with a creative pursuit.. All podcast content including episodes, graphics, and podcast descriptions are uploaded and provided directly by Ben Toalson and Rachel Toalson - A weekly podcast on balancing family life with a creative pursuit. or their podcast platform partner. If you believe someone is using your copyrighted work without your permission, you can follow the process outlined here https://player.fm/legal.

http://traffic.libsyn.com/intheboat/intheboat15.mp3Download: MP3 (59.3 MB)

Growing up, we had a fairly neutral relationship with screens. It was regulated like almost anything else we used to pass the time as kids. With today’s technological advances and the increasing usefulness of screens, combined with the information we consume about the negative effects of screens on child development, it’s easy to be very hard-lined about the use of screens. Maybe you’re a parent who allows your child to use screens all the time.

Ultimately, this conversation is not about screens, but about the values through which we approach the use of screens. Ben and Rachel go to the deeper issue and talk about how we can help our children develop a healthy relationship with the ever growing landscape of screen technology and avoid the struggle of negotiating screen time altogether.

Highlights, Takeaways, & Quick Wins

  • Screens aren’t good or bad—it’s how they’re used.
  • Too much exposure to screens between birth and age 2 changes a lot of a child’s developmental processes.
  • Beyond two years old, most pediatricians recommend no more than two hours of screen exposure a day.
  • We don’t have to put our kids in front of Baby Einstein to ensure they’re smartthey’re going to be smart anyway.
  • What values do you have and how do those values influence the way you use screens?
  • If you’re going to put limits on screen time, make the distinction between consuming and creating.
  • The time you spend on consuming comes at the cost of the time you could be creating things.
  • Speak to your children’s values about screens early on so later their tendency will be to use them for creating things.
  • When our focus is on creation, what we consume tends to add value to what we’re creating.
  • Screens can be a tool for children to express the beauty and imagination that’s inside them.
  • The more exposure kids have to screens, the more they become numb to it.
  • Ask yourself: how can technology be used to help my kids become better creators?
  • 04:44 Ben: This is a touchy subject for some and not so much for others. I would categorize it as one of the things we as parents don’t really like to hear advice from other parents about. It’s a, “You can talk to me about other things, but don’t talk to me about that. Mind your own business,” kind of thing. If you’re listening to this episode, hopefully we’re not that voice for you. I think you’ll find that we have an interesting take. Before we get into it, I wanted to talk a little bit about our own personal experiences when we were growing up—what our relationships with screens were.
  • 05:37 When I was growing up, we had a good three to four hours of television, usually programed cartoons, that we could watch each day. Sometimes we would sit down and watch, but sometimes we would decide to go outside. It felt really interchangeable—it was just another activity. Then, we got an Atari video game system and I had the game Pitfall, but I still don’t remember spending a whole lot of time playing video games. It felt pretty well balanced. I had a lot of outdoor playtime playing with friends in the neighborhood. I do remember on Fridays sometimes watching “TIGF”, which was six or seven Disney cartoons.
  • 06:59 My parents divorced when I was young and when I was about 14, I decided to move in with my dad. It was a similar situation, where I didn’t spend a whole lot of time watching TV. I spent most of my time hanging out with friends and it felt balanced, but TV was definitely a presence in our home. It was something that was just there.
  • 07:29 Rachel: I grew up the daughter of a librarian, so rather than television, we were encouraged to read books. My parents divorced when I was 11 and I grew up poor since it was just my mom taking care of the three of us. We never had enough money to have cable and stuff like that. I think back then there was a station that had cartoons that wasn’t part of cable.
  • 08:09 Ben: I can’t remember any specific cartoon, but PBS had educational cartoons on most of the time during the earlier part of the day and later in the day it got into stuff like Bob Ross painting.
  • 08:30 Rachel: I didn’t spend a whole lot of time with television, I was usually outside in a hammock reading. I enjoyed Thundercats, but that’s the only show I can remember.

Screens Aren’t Good or Bad—It’s How They’re Used

  • 11:08 Ben: I feel like both of us growing up didn’t really hear the message of, “Screens are bad,” and I would say because of the way Rachel was encouraged, she probably spent less time watching a screen than I did. We also grew up in a time where really the only screen available was the television. Later years, the PC came along.
  • 11:32 Rachel: Even then, it was used for word processing. It wasn’t the thing of computers today.
  • 11:40 Ben: It’s a very different environment today. I felt like I had a very balanced relationship with screens, in part probably because of the limited access to different forms of media. As parents, we got to this place where the message we were believing and sharing was that screens are bad. Some parents tend to go there because there’s new research on the effect of screens on children and their development. There are things we should be aware of, but I don’t want parents to be scared into a false relationship with screens because of information out there. What we’re going to get into is going to boarder the rule vs. the spirit of the rule.
  • 13:15 Rachel: I have a love/hate relationship with the relationship between screens and children, because we’re the first parenting generation growing up in the whole world of screens everywhere. They use iPads in school instead of computers. My kindergartener plays games in school with an iPad. It’s so crazily different than what it used to be.
  • 14:03 Ben: I want to encourage you to do your own research on child development and screens, but here are some things to keep in mind. Between when a child is born and the age of two, there’s a lot of stuff happening developmentally in their brain.

Too much exposure to screens between birth and age 2 changes a lot of a child’s developmental processes.

  • 14:58 It can cause adverse effects in their ability to learn or control their emotions down the road. If you think about a baby’s relationship with the world, everything is all senses—what they see, hear, touch, smell, and taste. Everything is connected, that’s why they put stuff in their mouth all the time. All of these tactile experiences are the ways they learn. When a parent throws a ball, kids see it leaving their hand, they follow it with their eyes, and they watch it roll away from them, there’s a ton of stuff happening there. They’re learning about distance, gravity, and the way things function. When they’re watching the same thing happen on a television screen, especially with multiple camera angles, they’ll see the ball leave the hand and then the hand disappears.
  • 16:00 You can see the ball again, but now the person is standing far away—see how disorienting that is? With children ages two and younger, don’t just limit, but try to avoid any exposure to screens as much as possible. It’s just going to mess with their development during that time. Beyond two years old, most pediatricians recommend no more than two hours of screen exposure a day. Our family goes shorter than that, if at all.
  • 16:45 Rachel: I want to give some hope to the parents who have maybe already let their younger than two year olds watch TV. We had the Noggin channel or Nick Jr., with our first born and he watched that. He would watch Baby Einstein and Your Baby Can Read, which I let him watch in the name of education. When our second son was born, we didn’t do any of that with him and he learned to read and write at the same exact time as our first born, who had watched all of those things. I think marketing can make parents feel like they have to do things for their infant, or else he’s not going to be smart. That’s what they prey on. I want to set us free from that.

We don’t have to put our kids in front of Baby Einstein to ensure they’re smart—they’re going to be smart anyway.

  • 18:05 Ben: I don’t want to say these things as a way of imposing how to do things, but understand there’s research out there that’s been tested. Don’t ignore that data.
  • 18:23 Rachel: At the same time, if you’ve already done this with your child, it’s never too late to stop.
  • 18:31 Ben: I don’t want to be on the side of the argument that says screens are bad, but I’m also don’t want to be on the side that says screens are good—it’s neutral. It’s how it’s used. The extremists argue that it’s unnatural, but in this modern age, we rely on a lot of things that are “unnatural”, like electricity, plumbing, modern transportation, etc. All of these things have been developed to make life easier. When they’re misused, obviously, there are consequences to that. When screens aren’t used correctly, they can have negative impacts, but when they’re used correctly, they can be helpful. The reality is we’re in a time where screens are a part of our daily experience.

Consumer vs. Creator

  • 20:21 Screens will continue to be a part of our daily lives in an increasing way, especially for our children. Coming to grips with that reality helps us to move to the more important conversation: what are our values? This isn’t a question about the screen itself, it’s about values. What values do you have and how do those values influence the way you use screens? The two things that help us are consumer vs. creator. I had coffee with Sean, of the seanwes podcast, and something he said really got my wheels turning and shaped the direction this topic was going to take. He held up his iPhone and said, “These are made for consuming.”
  • 21:59 I realized it, the apps, and the programs it uses are designed to help us consume more efficiently in a lot of ways. That’s not the only thing they’re used for; there are apps that allow you to learn and create, but for the most part it is a consumption device. A lot of that is driven by the demand. People like consuming information and they like consuming television, otherwise why would cable or Netflix exist? Consumption isn’t necessarily a bad thing—it’s good to learn things and be entertained.

The time you spend on consuming comes at the cost of the time you could be creating things.

  • 22:57 The value we have that plays a part in our relationship with screens is that we see ourselves as creative people. We want to produce things that add value and beauty to the world. Consuming things can be fulfilling, like when you watch a movie and it was very well produced and the acting was great. You can get some fulfillment out of consuming things and it can make your life better, but when you create things, there’s a different kind of fulfillment.
  • 23:54 I would say a more powerful, longer-lasting fulfillment comes from creating, because it’s seeing something you’ve created go out into the world and add beauty to peoples’ lives. If we’re purposeful about it, that value can drive our relationship with screens in a way such that we don’t have to put these strict rules on how much time kids are allowed to use screens. We do want to be careful about when our children are developmentally ready to handle time with screens.

Speak to your children’s values about screens early on so later their tendency will be to use them for creating things.

  • 25:18 Rachel: It’s a good middle-of-the-road route, because I tend to take the extreme of not wanting our kids to have any access to screens. When I heard they were using iPads in kindergarten, I was like, “Oh my gosh, no!” but I think you balance me out a little bit. These things can be used for creativity. I work on a computer for five hours a day writing. I actually just recently started writing everything by computer instead of by hand.
  • 26:17 Ben: What was your fear in making that switch initially? Why did you stick so long with writing on paper vs. using a computer?
  • 26:26 Rachel: I think because my brain works really fast and when my hand has to keep up, it doesn’t have as much time to correct as I’m going so I’m not self-editing. I type super fast because I was a journalist and I used to take notes when people were talking, but I found you can train yourself to do these things. Whenever I would write by hand for an hour and a half, I could probably write 3,000 words, and when I moved to the computer, that was doubled. When I was doing it by hand, I also didn’t have the time to transcribe it all. It would probably take me an hour and a half to transcribe everything I wrote by hand for an hour. The time saved was enough for me to be ok with my kids creating on a screen. Our eight year old already draws and writes comic books. He could create those more quickly and efficiently on a computer.
  • 27:45 Ben: There’s a beautiful relationship there too between physical creation and digital creation. A lot of times artists will start out with the physical side of things, and even though Rachel is focusing more on writing on the computer, she still starts her day writing by hand in her journal. That act of physically writing does something in your mind that allows you to experience more creativity when you bring it to digital. When I see that with the kids, it’s something I want to encourage.
  • 28:22 Rachel: It’s also a keepsake. I’ll be keeping all of those books in his original eight year old handwriting.
  • 28:32 Ben: I love the idea of them understanding the tools they’re working with on the computer and being able to take something that’s in their imagination, and see it come to life. They can do some of that by hand, and depending on what they want to see come to life, they may need the digital component to make it possible. When we think about it this way, the argument isn’t about the screen, it’s about what you’re going to create and the tools used to do that.

  • 29:11 Rachel: On the other side, we have seen the addictive part of screens too. We’ve seen it in our own lives too with a phone that has social media, email, and games on it. My Facebook app actually just stopped working and I never fixed it. I feel so much better because of it. There’s potential for all of that to become very addicting and we saw this happen with our six year old, Asa, just the other night when he and Ben were designing something on the computer.
  • 30:07 Ben: He did get upset, but that was more because he wanted to finish it. There was a great lesson there though, because sometimes for our one-on-one time, they’ll tell me what they want and I’ll make it for them on the computer. This time, I had him sit down and I coached him while he was working in Photoshop trying to make a lego ninja. It was fun teaching him how to use the tools and taking him through the basics, but our time was up before he was able to finish making it and he got upset about that. I had shown him a timelapse video of an art piece I had done a year ago and when he calmed down, I reminded him of the video and told him it took me a really long time to make and that I didn’t do it all at once.
  • 31:26 I explained to him how I would work on it a little bit and then I’d run out of time and just have to leave it, then I’d come back to it and work on it a little more. I love the lesson of pacing. Sometimes we’re so eager to see what’s in our head come to life so much that we shortcut it and we don’t give ourselves the time we need. The great artists are the ones who have learned to be patience with that process, not seeing something happen instantly. I don’t want the ease of use when making things digitally to send a false message to my kids that the artistic process can be cut short. You need to let the inspiration marinate a little bit; you need to work on it and then leave it before coming back to it later with a fresh perspective. That’s what makes your art more beautiful and meaningful.
  • 32:40 Rachel: Ben does one-on-one time with the boys on the computer, but I try to do different things with them.

When I’m sharing a screen with my child, I feel like I’m not actually sharing the experience with him because screens can be so addicting to kids.

  • 33:11 Ben: I would prefer to have some separate time for learning and teaching screen stuff than our personal, on-on-one time. I would like to protect that personal time. Another thing we don’t think about, and this is something I struggle with a lot, is when we do share something that we’ve created, we get a big boost from feedback. With social media, you can get a thumbs-up, hearts, likes, and comments and that by itself can become a form of addition—it’s instant feedback. You used to be able to make something, put it out there, and maybe experience in person that someone liked it or maybe you put it out there and never heard back from anyone. The fulfillment of having created something was enough. That’s another piece of the value I really want to pass on. Getting instant feedback through screens is something I really want to help my kids avoid.
  • 35:12 This can be some rough water, but it’s definitely a conversation worth having that’s focused around your values as it relates to being a consumer or creator, not a rule or ideal. People who are consumers by habit tend to lead less fulfilling lives because it’s the stuff they have in their lives that adds value for them. People who are creators tend to lead lives that are more fulfilling because it’s what they’re sharing that adds value to their own life. When you share something, it’s not just a one-time thing—it’s out there now. That’s the value I want my kids to have when it comes to screens, when they’re old enough and ready. Even our eight year old is old enough to start learning how to use this technology to get what’s inside his heart and head out into the world. That’s really what it should be about.
  • 36:37 Rachel: Talking about the consumer-nature, I would also say that, maybe because I’m a writer, everything I “consume” like books or movies is also informing my art. It’s really important for me to be careful about the things I consume.

When our focus is on creation, what we consume tends to add value to what we’re creating.

  • 37:14 Rachel: Our eight year old basically wants to be George Lucas. If we can curate the things he’s consuming, then that can push him in the right direction for the creative-nature of work he wants to do.

How Do I Explain My Work on the Computer to My Child?

  • 38:06 Ben: If we want our kids to approach technology with those kinds of values, we’ve got to demonstrate those as parents. I totally relate to the question Adam Hayman asks, “Being that my job is entirely on a computer, I can see a child wondering why I don’t get a limit on my own screen time. How would you explain that to them in a way that makes sense?” Show them what that screen time is producing. The second part of that question isn’t as fun, but as the adult, you know better for them how much screen time they should have than they do. It’s one of those things like, “I know I spend a lot of time with screens, but that’s because daddy is an adult.”
  • 39:22 I think we’ll have to do a whole episode on the answer, “Because I’m a grownup.” That answer is valid and true most of the time, but it’s not very satisfying for kids. I would say to lean more heavily on showing them what you do and what you make on the computer. Making that connection for them is a great way to demonstrate the power of using those tools for creation vs. consuming.
  • 39:57 Rachel: Some jobs or creative pursuits are easier to show than others. It’s hard for me to show them a computer screen with all the words I wrote on it, but Ben can show them a picture. I have read them some of the picture books I’m working on.
  • 40:30 Ben: The bottom line is it’s not about the screen, it’s about the value through which you use screens. That’s really going to make the difference. I don’t think anyone wants their child to grow up to be a couch potato that watches TV all day. We have to keep in mind the practical things we’ve learned through study and research, but:

Screens can be a tool for children to express the beauty and imagination that’s inside them.

  • 41:45 Rachel: We also fiercely work to protect family time from screens. That’s not even necessarily television screens because we have a weekly family movie night, but screens on phones or iPads, or even phone calls and texts. We set a time limit on our day and say, “After this time, we put away our phones.” We don’t always succeed at that because there are emergencies and things like that, but it’s been helpful for our marriage and our family.
  • 42:39 Ben: Scott asked, “How much screen time should you allow before telling your children it’s time to do something else? During the summer, my mom would give me and my brother ‘tickets.’ We could spend the tickets on 30 minutes of screen time. I think we were given two hours a day if I remember correctly.” I think we already answered his questions, but I thought his story was fun.
  • 43:07 Rachel: Summertime is hard. When we started the summer, we had a rule that if they wanted to use technology for a time, there were things they needed to do first. The temptation there is because they’re not in school, they’ll sit around and watch shows all day or play on the computer. Our kids are really young still, so they don’t even have the option unless mom and dad say yes.

Should Educational or Creative Screen Time Be Limited?

  • 44:34 Ben: Adam asks, “Should screen time be limited if what they’re doing is productive, like playing educational or creative games, making art, etc?” If you’re going to put limits on screen time, make the distinction between consuming and creating. If you’re going to put an overall limit, like no more than two hours a day, you could say 30 minutes of the two hours is for an entertainment show, but an hour and half is for creating things. Divide it however you want, but put an overall time limit. That way, you don’t relegate all of their creative time just to technology. Some of that creativity has to happen in more tangible ways.
  • 45:36 Rachel: I tend to take a conservative side on this and say, even if they’re creating on a screen, it needs to be limited at a certain point. I like to send the boys outside so they can run off some energy and there’s research that says screens can stimulate the brain and make kids more energetic. We’ve definitely seen that when we’ve watched a movie together at night. It takes them twice as long to fall asleep because there’s something about the screen and the bright light. There’s also a lot of research saying not to look at screens before you go to bed.
  • 46:18 Ben: The hard thing about this is the more exposure kids have to screens, they become numb to it. We had some good friends that had screens on in every room in the house all the time, and it become like white noise for their kids. They almost didn’t notice it. It’s kind of like junk food: your body can get used to eating junk food. If you’re eating healthy food a lot, and then eat junk food, your body can freak out over it. TV can be the same way. There have been a couple of days where we need to clean the house and we put on like five hours of TV, which is awful. We notice a difference then. It’s the sustained use of it that can become more harmful and set them on a path we don’t really want for them.
  • 47:34 Rachel: When I think about limiting screen time, I think about us as workers. If all we’re doing is sitting in front of a screen without any breaks, then we’re not creating as well as we might otherwise.
  • 48:08 Ben: There are health implications there too. Doctors recommend getting up every 45 minutes or an hour to take a break.

Schedule Family Screen Time

  • 48:43 Adam asks, “Do you have any tips on family screen time? Being in front of a screen can be an inherently solo activity. What ways can the family be brought together by a screen rather than be isolated by it?” I’d like to be better about this personally. I have a tendency to watch shows on Netflix on my own, but I do that while I’m in bed with Rachel and she’s reading a book. Even though I’m with her, I’m still kind of doing that alone. The shared experience of consuming something great makes for great conversation later. To answer this question: be intentional about scheduling and setting aside time family screen time. Make it a special thing and maybe add some stuff on the tail end of it where you talk about it, or discuss a lesson learned from it.
  • 50:12 Rachel: Pile on the same couch where you’re actually touching each other.
  • 50:20 Ben: There’s some ritual that’s built into our family movie nights. I always make homemade popcorn, so there’s the experience of smelling it and everyone fighting over which cup they get.
  • 50:42 Charla asks, “What apps do you find helps their creativity? Right now my favorite is Toontastic. It’s taught my kids how to tell stories with an actual story arc.” I have to confess that we actually don’t have any apps on our phones or iPad that we’ve allowed our children to use yet. We haven’t even had those conversations, but I love the direction this question is going. It’s almost like she’s assuming if she’s going to give her kid an iPad or screen, it’s so they can learn something that becomes useful in their ability to create. I want to encourage people to think about the technology their kids have access to that way. How can technology be used to help our kids become better creators?
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