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Manage episode 35827617 series 31646
Our thirty-first episode features Tzufit and Apple Cider talking to returning guest Folami about the Warcraft book, Dawn of the Aspects and dragons in lore. We take a close look at how dragons have been used over course of the universe’s history as well as the novel. Discussion about the Aspects losing their powers and also going sterile is examined.
- Tweet from @Loreology saying that dragons are sterile.
- Justice Points: “Episode #16 – Brutality, Atrocity and Violence, Part 1“
- Justice Points: “Episode #9 – Bad Romance“
- Wowpedia: Kirygosa
Content warning: There is graphic discussion of sexual assault, torture, infertility and gendered violence in this episode. Specific mentions of this starts at 54:20, as well.
Below the cut is a full transcript of Episode 31, “Dawn of the Aspects: A Discussion on Dragons in Lore.” Many thanks to @IviaRelle for transcribing this episode.
Tzufit: Hi, everybody, and welcome to Justice Points. This week we’re gonna do something a little bit different than what we’ve done in the past. We have a special guest joining us and in preparation for today’s show the three of us have done something- let’s see- I guess we could say it was a big sacrifice on our part. This week we’re gonna be discussing the book Dawn of the Aspects, and our special guest to join us, you may remember her from episode number twenty where she came to talk to us about motherhood, is Folami! Welcome, Folami!
Folami: Thank you, I’m happy to be back! When I got the email I was like, “Oh, they liked me! They really liked me!”
Tzufit: (Laughing) Well, we should point out that the reason why we wanted to discuss Dawn of the Aspects was because recently Sean Copeland, who is Loreology on Twitter, kind of put some information out there that- it really was not new information. Somebody tweeted at him asking, you know, is it true that the dragons can no longer procreate after the events of Dawn of the Aspects? And Sean quoted something that was in Dawn of the Aspects and gave a page number as the answer to that, but said that he didn’t really have any further information. Well! Surprisingly enough, a lot of the community had not read Dawn of the Aspects, so when they read Sean’s tweet there was kind of a universal, “Whaaaattt?” Among the people I saw trying to work that out on Twitter and figure out just what the hell was going on, was of course Folami.
Folami: Yeah, when I read it and then also- it was a line, “They fulfilled their purpose,” for the Hour of Twilight that just- it set me off in a big way because it just- it’s a common trope. Women fulfilling their purpose in having babies and that’s their purpose, and then to have the dragons become sterile after sacrificing SO MUCH, it just- it upset a lot of the community. I remember even Matthew Rossi on Twitter saying, “I’m gonna have to step away now.”
Apple Cider: (Laughing) I can’t imagine why… it was such- I mean, I have to say, I saw the tweet, just caught it on the- the only reason I caught it is because I think somebody retweeted it or, like, period- put a period before the name to kind of string in people for the entire conversation, and it was- yeah, it was Sean Copeland basically saying, “Oh, no no, no no no, the Aspects can’t breed anymore, they’re sterile, they’re all sterile.” And it was such an offhand comment, and I was literally just waking up, like, I had my coffee on my desk and I- I almost spit it out onto my monitor (chuckling) cause I was like, “What?!” I feel like everybody in the community, especially all the lore geeks, got blindsided by a car!
Folami: And really, it’s an “if you blink you missed it” and I had read Tides of War, and in Tides of War, it opens with Kalecgos at the Nexus and all it talks about are the blue dragons are kind of leaving him, he doesn’t- he’s not an Aspect anymore, there’s this- there’s a comment about this endless night from the dragons ahead, but there’s no mention that this means anything more than they don’t have the Aspects and their powers anymore.
Apple Cider: Yeah.
Tzufit: Right, and I had also read Tides of War and I remember that part as well, and I had the same reaction where it was just, like, “OK, well, you know, we’re just kind of being dramatic about the fact that they’re mortal now, and that’s fine,” there was nothing in that sentence that made me even suspect that there was something more going on, and I think knowing Sean Copeland- and I’d have to go back and look at the tweet for sure, I doubt- I’m almost positive he did not come out and say they are sterile. I think he said it is hinted at in Dawn of the Aspects, so it’s like, there is still some possibility that maybe that’s not what’s going on, but it sounds pretty cut and dry.
Folami: Yeah, as I said in the notes, it says at first that they’re laying- that some of the dragons are laying fewer and fewer eggs, but then it says Alexstrasza herself cannot lay any more eggs, and there will never be any more children for her.
Apple Cider: Yeah, they- that’s the two things that I highlighted in Dawn of the Aspects is, it specifically says she cannot have- she cannot lay any more eggs, and this is what makes her suffering even more profound, and… So, you know, reading the Dawn of the Aspects, reading those quotes, and then sort of- I mean, I don’t wanna spoiler our episode ahead of time, but, uhh, let’s get to kind of the meat of the thing. Um, hello, we actually still have not figured out why this happens. It is not actually specifically mentioned ANYWHERE why they’re sterile.
Tzufit: Right. Before we get to the sterility question, let’s tackle the obvious other side of that which is, OK, maybe the dragons can’t lay any more eggs, but these are dragons. There are eggs ALL OVER the place in Azeroth. We see them all the time. Anytime we go into a dragon’s den, there’s like hundreds of thousands of eggs in there. What about all of those? Well, turns out that that question was actually answered in Thrall: Twilight of the Aspects.
Folami: Yeah, that’s the opening scene- uh, I can’t pronounce his dragon name, forgive me, but Krasus-
Tzufit: Oh, goodness.
Folami: In human form he’s known as Krasus, who is Alexstrasza’s second consort. He’s in the Ruby Sanctum, he’s kind of watching over these eggs, and what happens is he sees all these Twilight’s Hammer cultists come rushing in, and as he’s getting up to fight them, he turns around and all the eggs start hatching and they’re all kind of corrupted with the Twilight- however the Twilight-
Tzufit: The Chromatic Dragons, yeah.
Folami: With the Chromatic Dragons, and they’re all Twilight, and he has this flash, and apparently every single Sanctum, which is all under Wyrmrest Temple, is infected with this. All these young are now compromised, and he makes the sacrifice, he kills himself and destroys all the eggs in the process.
Tzufit: So… In one movement, every single pre-existing Dragon egg is now gone.
Folami: Except for those of the Black Dragonflight, which is actually- they’re laying eggs elsewhere at this point, obviously.
Tzufit: Right, because they wouldn’t be welcome to do them at Wyrmrest Temple, that makes sense.
Apple Cider: So, it kind of starts to shed a really macabre sort of light on- on this sterility question, this- I would almost attempt to say, uh, Sean Copeland kind of overturned a rock and this is all that was underneath it. Broken eggs and- but it also kind of makes- puts kind of a macabre spin on literally everything in-game that players have gotten little hints of. Like, even if you hadn’t read all of the books, which I haven’t, you- it makes it very macabre and- Folami, I know you mentioned this on Twitter, about the whole thing right up before the Ultraxion fight with Alexstrasza and the Twilight Dragons. It makes it very creepy.
Folami: Yeah, we mentioned it in the motherhood episode, that Alexstrasza actually says, “Bring my clutch- bring them down, they are my clutch no longer,” and these are her eggs that have been perverted by the Twilight Dragons and- I assumed that these had been taken before the ones in the Sanctum had been laid, because all those were destroyed, as far as I know, but then again it could be some kind of inconsistency between the books and the game because, you know, that never happens.
Apple Cider: (Laughing)
Tzufit: Yeah, I think it would probably be easy enough to kind of handwave that, “Oh, well, these were ones that were a little bit older, so they were already outside the Sanctum,” blah blah blah.
Folami: Or holdovers from when she was kidnapped by the Dragonmaw.
Tzufit: Any of these options, yeah.
Apple Cider: Yeah. At every level- I just feel like, at every level, every time that we started to kind of uncover one thing about the Dragons, it was just connected to this even worse thing (chuckling) about the Dragons! Like, especially if you hadn’t been involved in the extra universe lore that’s, like, in the books and stuff like that, because, I mean, obviously players have interacted with Alexstrasza, they’ve interacted with the Dragon Sanctum, they’ve interacted with Wyrmrest… I mean, there has been Dragonsoul and there’s Sartharion, and then you start to put the pieces together and it’s like, “WHAT HAS BEEN GOING ON THIS ENTIRE TIME?!”
Folami: Yeah, a lot of this takes place in the books, and my weakness is obviously the pre-World of Warcraft or the earlier World of Warcraft lore, cause I came in and started playing in Cataclysm and that’s where a lot of my focus has been, in terms of lore, reading the more current books and the current events in the game. So, I was uncovering this stuff and reading about, you know, what happened to Alexstrasza back during the second war and her mate, her first consort, then, and it’s just one awful thing after another and they’re never ever mentioned again.
Tzufit: Yeah, Alexstrasza has unquestionably had a terrible life, and it’s never- it’s never really dealt with again after the fact. Like, honestly, I think that’s one of the few things that Dawn of the Aspects does well, kind of? (Laughing) Is that you actually see Alexstrasza having a reaction to something terrible that’s happened to her in the past. Now, it’s not a great thing to read, and it’s problematic in its own right, but it’s one of the only times you really see her acknowledging the fact that some really [edited] stuff has happened in her lifetime.
Folami: Yeah, and in Twilight of the Aspects I kind of made a snarky entry on my Livejournal back in the day just how much she reacts in kind of like this awful way that just seemed out of character for her when she loses all her eggs. She pretty much gives up, but in Dawn of the Aspects we see her- Kalec finds her and she’s just kind of watching these human children kind of play, and she’s observing and she’s acknowledging that, “I’ve lost so much and I can’t ever get that back.”
Apple Cider: And that’s kind of- we bring that back around to the sterility aspects, that makes it even more dark and terrible, because you literally have this Dragon who- the Titans come, they give her this power, “You have to preserve all life on Azeroth, and you are the Lifebinder, that is your job, that is your duty,” so she becomes the Lifebinder, she feels all of the life of Azeroth acutely, and yet when it comes to her own hatchlings and her clutch and her Dragonflight, at every step of the way there is abuse, there’s death, there’s maiming, there’s, you know, rape, there’s this imprisonment, and then at the end of it all, after all was said and done, all of her children are killed and then she’s not allowed to have any more.
Folami: And also her consorts. So…
Folami: Yeah, she has lost so much, and she must live out the rest of her days, however long that’s going to be, with this pain.
Tzufit: There’s also something incredibly ironic in a truly horrific way that Alexstrasza does manage to preserve all life on Azeroth, she fulfills that charge of an Aspect in the Dragon Soul raid, but the one group that she is unable to save are the other Dragons.
Apple Cider: Yeah, and it’s interesting because I didn’t think that a lot of the writing with the Dragons was very good, but somehow they still manage to do a pitch-perfect Greek level of tragedy and irony.
Tzufit: (Chuckles) Let’s back up a little bit and talk about the story of Dawn of the Aspects. So, this was originally released as a five-part ebook, you can actually get it as paper book now, paperback book as well. I would not recommend that you do either of those things, but just if you’re interested in reading it yourself, you know, go for it, I guess. Knock yourself out. Um, so it’s a story that essentially covers a period very early in Dragon history when they’re actually still Proto-Dragons, so those Dragons that you see around Northrend that are actually Proto-Drakes, kind of like bigger fully-adult versions of those, and what we find out is that the Aspects, Malygos, Neltharion, Nozdormu, Alexstrasza, Ysera, all used to be Proto-Dragons, before the Keepers came along and turned them into who they are today. The way that we find all of this out, rather than just giving us the story that takes place in the past, is that Kalecgos in the present finds a very mysterious artifact in a way that only Kalecgos could. He manages to activate it with no concern for his personal safety whatsoever, despite being ostensibly the most powerful Dragon and possibly magic user aside from maybe Azshara, but whatever, we’ll shelve that, put a pin in it. He manages to activate it, and gets sucked back into these continuing visions where he’s seeing through Malygos’s eyes at the time that these events were happening. So, the big conflict that’s happening for these Proto-Dragons back in the very very distant past is that Galakrond has shown up and Galakrond is, of course, the- if you quested through Wrath, you would remember that there’s an area called Galakrond’s Rest that’s not too far from Wyrmrest Temple, and there were a bunch of Scourge there who were trying to raise this dragon, like they were trying to raise Dragons all over Northrend, but there was something particularly concerning about them raising Galakrond, everybody knew this would be a really bad thing, so you went through a whole quest chain there to prevent it, and other than that you didn’t really get a whole lot of information about who Galakrond was except that he was referred to as the father of the Dragons, but other than that it was just kind of the name. What you find out in Dawn of the Aspects is that he’s actually this corrupted really gross and horrific dragon who basically- some corruption got into him and he decided, “You know what I’m gonna do today? I’m gonna eat another Dragon.” So he did that and then he was like, “You know what? One isn’t enough! I gotta keep eating more Dragons.” And as he does he starts to kind of morph and change, and he gets extra limbs and extra eyes kind of in your typical Old God corruption fashion that we tend to get in Azeroth. So before long, basically it’s at the point where he’s about ready to devour every single Proto-Dragon in the entire world.
Folami: Yeah, I thought that there were a lot of allusions to the Lich King and stuff, and the way that he was able to eventually start to control the undead to organize them to go after what are future Aspects, as it were, and it just- I felt like I kept expecting, like, Yor’Sahj or somebody to show up during this.
Apple Cider: Yeah, there was also a little bit of shades of Deathwing too, with the extra limbs and the things, like, the little pockets of corruption and things like that. Very much reminded me of the back of Deathwing fight, the rolly-turny one.
Tzufit: Yeah, and it’s- it’s gross. Among the things, among his powers and, you know, if you’re sensitive to anything involving regurgitation please skip ahead, but among Galakrond’s powers, I guess using that term loosely, is that he will swallow Dragons whole and then vomit them back up and they come up as these undead Dragons that, as Folami said, later on in the story you find out that he’s actually able to control them and kind of send them where they need to go.
Apple Cider: Yeah. He basically vomits up the Naxx twenty-five meta achievement mount, if anybody can remember it’s that, like, the Proto-Drakes.
Tzufit: So obviously the Aspects who are not Aspects at the time realize that this is problematic and that he needs to be stopped. The problem is that Proto-Dragons, we learn through their very jumbled speech that is usually lacking pronouns and objects and all kinds of fun stuff, are not as intelligent as current Dragons. Which, I- I don’t know if that rubbed either of you the wrong way, but the way that that speech was conveyed just kept making me wanna punch something.
Apple Cider: (Chuckling)
Folami: It was aggravating, but to me it also kind of made a little bit of sense. They’re- this kind of, like, one of this evolutionary steps for dragons. I mean, this is before, I think, even any of the mortal races as we know them were walking Azeroth, and it’s just kind of the stunted speech, that they’re just learning this kind of intelligence and some of them are more advanced than other Proto-Dragons.
Apple Cider: Yeah, it felt like a very ham-fisted attempt to convey the fact that it’s primitive life, but with no actual grounding in how primitive life works.
Tzufit: Right, that was my objection, pretty much, just that it was- yeah, I totally understand that they’re kind of the previous incarnation of Dragons, but it felt- yeah. It felt a little bit silly, the way it was conveyed.
Folami: As if, you know, words are the only way they could communicate.
Tzufit: Right! Exactly. You know, it’s not like they would have, I don’t know, body language or sense the way that lots of other animals do.
Apple Cider: (Laughing)
Tzufit: No, it’s totally gonna be language. But, in that way, I don’t know that I really can complain because I think- I don’t wanna spend too much time fussing about the writing, but I’m gonna just say a couple of things. Which is that this story actually manages to have quite a lot of moving parts from a narrative standpoint. You’ve got this story in the past that’s framed by a story in the present. You have Kalecgos who’s seeing through Malygos’s eyes but who also is still capable of having his own independent thought about what’s going on around him. So, that’s a lot to juggle. There’s also a lot of combat, a lot of it is combat between dragons which I’m sure must be more difficult to write than combat between humans, for obvious reasons. So, there’s a lot to juggle, there’s a lot of moving parts, and- since all of those are already done so poorly, I’m kind of OK with cheating on the Proto-Dragon dialogue because I can only imagine what it would be like if they had tried to convey that language in any other way.
Folami: Yeah, some of the fighting was just kind of awkward and I kept having to pause and kind of try to picture in my head what’s happening, so I was kind of, I guess, you know, I’m grateful for the language as it was.
Tzufit: (Laughing) Yeah, the combat in particular is quite bad. It’s, um- it’s very difficult to follow, a lot of it is extraordinarily repetitive. A lot of it is extraordinarily unnecessary. The one thing that I just felt like, once I got to the end of the book, was that it probably could have been two hundred pages shorter than it was. You know, there’s not- there are only a few significant events, and all the events in between are just kind of, “Let’s have one more Dragon fight that barely makes sense.”
Folami: Yeah, or you get to a really interesting point with the Dragons and then suddenly Kalecgos is being thrust back into the present and we skip over this.
Apple Cider: Yeah.
Apple Cider: Which is, I guess, supposed to be dramatic and mysterious and all that, but it’s like, man, I really don’t wanna have to keep imagining Kalecgos as a sweaty, half-Elf with vaguely draconic features because he wasn’t quite done warping himself. So, it’s- I just- it was a lot of unnatural nasty visuals rather than actually reading a story.
Tzufit: Yeah, there was a surprising amount of grossness in this book. I will come out and say that.
Apple Cider: (Laughing)
Folami: Yeah, it-
Tzufit: I think also- go ahead, sorry.
Folami: Yeah, with the Undead, and the Dragons, and the eating and stuff, it was just kind of, you know, put the book down for a few minutes and take a deep breath.
Tzufit: It honestly was basically Dragon Walking Dead.
Apple Cider: Yeah.
Tzufit: Like, especially at the moment where all of a sudden Ysera has one of the zombie Dragons on a leash, I’m like, “Wait a second.”
Apple Cider: (Laughing)
Folami: (Laughing) Yeah, she’s taped his mouth shut or something?
Apple Cider: How does that even work? They’re barely forming coherent sentences.
Tzufit: Oh yeah, and Kalecgos certainly takes note of, like, “Well, Proto-Dragons don’t use tools,” and it’s like, “OH, but Ysera’s using a tool, oh this must mean she’s extraordinarily intelligent!” It’s just- it’s- it’s bad. (Laughing) It’s real bad. I think, you know, also, it almost- either way, even if you set this story completely in the past without having a present framework around it, there’s nothing at stake here because it’s a story in the past. We know that the Aspects survive because we’ve seen them, you know, and we know that Kalecgos hasn’t died because we’ve seen him, we know that Malygos doesn’t die because we killed him ourselves, you know? So there’s really nothing at stake in the narrative, which for me also made it very difficult to get invested in it, which isn’t a flaw in the writing but a flaw in, I guess, the story that they asked the author to tell, so.
Apple Cider: And in case you were afraid that the Dragons might not make it, you know, like people who were spoiled by the end of Titanic, umm… Kalecgos refers to the fact that he knows that the Dragons survive.
Apple Cider: On several occasions.
Folami: Yeah, and that was one of the things towards the end when he’s like, he can no longer tell himself apart from Malygos and suddenly, oh, he’s not so sure anymore if they’re going to make it!
Apple Cider: (Laughing)
Folami: And then we get these flashes back to the future with Jaina, who is obviously still alive, the world is still spinning, and it’s just kind of like, “Well, I know it’s still going to work out the same way it did in the past.”
Apple Cider: (Chuckling)
Tzufit: Yeah, you don’t get to revoke that mid-way through the story just because Kalecgos is starting to lose himself. Like, the reader at that point is no longer fooled.
Folami: Yeah, and for me I think part of the thing about reading books where you know how the end turns out, for me it’s just kind of- I also wanna kind of know how it happened back then, and there isn’t a whole lot of pre-history for World of Warcraft for Azeroth in general because a lot of it is just, “Well, there were Titans and we don’t know much else.”
Tzufit: Right, and this book had the potential to be very interesting in that regard, because I think this is certainly the earliest narrative that we get from Azeroth. I mean, this is- this is, like you said, before the mortal races, this is before the Aspects were Aspects, this is really early on in the creation, and unfortunately we- outside of just knowing how things worked for the Proto-Dragons, we really don’t see anything else, and that was a disappointment to me. I guess the only other thing you really get is you get a couple of minutes with Tyr which is cool, but for all of the potential that you have to go that far back in Azeroth’s history, it really ends up being kind of wasted.
Folami: Yeah, I was really disappointed that Tyr didn’t go beyond explaining what happened to Galakrond and, you know, there’s just kind of this question of, did an Old God have something to do with it initially, or did the Keepers themselves, he mentioned something, they ignored something or they’ve not been keeping up with the planet like they should be, and I had all these questions about what was happening and never got answered, and obviously, you know, one of the biggest mysteries for Azeroth is basically, who were the Titans and what were they doing and what exactly happened in those early days? And none of that gets answered.
Tzufit: It doesn’t even get really touched very much.
Apple Cider: Which is funny, because that’s kind of what the title of the book is about. You expect that there’s going to be some- that all of this Proto-Drake-y-ness is going to be that lead-up to what you really wanna know about the past, because you know how the future Dragons turned out, and this is obviously a framing- like- there’s so much potential because the framing narrative is about, you know, Kalecgos struggling with not being an Aspect anymore, and all of the Dragons struggling not being Aspects anymore, so you THINK it’s a big reveal and the past is gonna be, “Oh, so this is how they became the Aspects!” and then it really doesn’t get touched.
Folami: Yeah, at first I thought maybe there’s gonna be some revelation of how they might could reclaim some of that power? Maybe not all of it, maybe some of it, you know? And also going back to the sterility thing, maybe they can find a way to continue on with their lives? You know, or continue their bloodlines? But instead it’s just basically replaying this oath they took when they became the Aspects.
Tzufit: Yeah, it- it just didn’t give me any of what I was hoping to get out of, you know- it was supposed to be the payoff for making it through this three-hundred-and-eighty-four page-
Apple Cider: (Chuckling)
Tzufit: -thing, you know? But it wasn’t there.
Apple Cider: And I- the whole purpose for- coming back to the podcast, the whole purpose of us reading Dawn of the Aspects was to give us insight as to why the Dragon Aspects are sterile, but outside of two mentions, the book actually provides no explanation about the sterility and then doesn’t even touch on the history of the game leading them to that point. So it’s really interesting ’cause I think that we would have probably been better served maybe touching or reading Twilight of the Aspects ’cause apparently that seems where like a lot more of this discussion actually happened.
Folami: Yeah, but even in Twilight of the Aspects, and even at the end of Dragon Soul, all they say-
Apple Cider: (Laughing)
Folami: -is they’ve sacrificed their power so that we could kill Deathwing. They don’t say, “Oh, this is the end of us.” It’s just, “This is the end of our immortality, this is the end of our magic,” but not the literal end of Dragons.
Tzufit: I think it’s also weird that the two mentions that we do get in Dawn of the Aspects both happen in the present.
Apple Cider: Yeah.
Tzufit: So what we end up with is a real disconnect because Proto-Dragons could reproduce, there was nothing- you know, there was nothing special about making the Aspects into the Aspects that granted them abilities of procreation that they did not already have. So, if that’s the case, then why, when they are no longer the Aspects, does that get taken away from them? It doesn’t make any logical sense.
Apple Cider: And then-
Folami: Yeah, there’s nothing, and Loreology said that the official line that he got was that the Dragons had kind of fulfilled their purpose in bringing- you know, in ending the Hour of Twilight, and that’s the only reason, but- that just explains why they would lose their powers.
Apple Cider: Yeah. You- we- we actually never- you know, half-cocked, nonsensical, inconsistent- there’s not actually a reason. There is no reason, there is no discussion about it, there is no reason behind it, not even a bad one! Not even a bad reason why they can’t reproduce, and then the parts of the narratives in Dawn, in Twilight, and then in Charge of the Aspects too with, like, their Titan powers being removed and being used for the Dragon Soul- it never touches on reproduction. It feels like the CDev team got together, decided this privately, and then it just never made it to any of the media whatsoever including why it’s actually there.
Folami: Yeah, it just seems like, OK well the Dragon- the age of Dragons is at an end, OK, that’s it. I mean, that’s it. There’s no explanation, nothing at all to give us any kind of clue as to why they wanna do this, why do the Dragons have to disappear? I mean, they’ve been here for- pretty much since the beginning of time. Why do they have to leave us?
Tzufit: Right, they’ve existed for longer than any of the mortal races, they’re mortal now but, again, that should not mean that they can’t reproduce. So it just is really weird and gross and concerning to think that- ’cause I think the logical or closest to logical explanation that you can piece together is that somehow it was a part of the Titans’ plan that obviously they created the Aspects so that they could prevent the Hour of Twilight. They did that, and they used up all of the energy that they had as Aspects, all their powers as Aspects, to do that, and once that was over you have to assume that if they are sterile now it’s because that is by design of the Titans. The Titans knew that after this happened, the Dragons were going to die out, and that is gross as hell.
Folami: Yeah, and I think about, you know, the Night Elves were once immortal but now they’re mortal, but they’re still able to reproduce.
Folami: There’s no crisis there that the Night Elves are one day gonna cease existing.
Apple Cider: Yeah, and- I mean, it raises a lot of interesting questions about the nature of the Titans but again, there’s no actual explanation at any point, from when they get their powers to when they lose their powers, about reproduction, there’s just like two mentions in Dawn apropos of literally nothing. So it’s like, where is the disconnect here? And I understand, I have a feeling that it’s because the creative development team is basically ush- yeah, they’re ushering in the age of man. That is what they’re doing. You know, in Lord of the Rings terms, they’re ushering in the age of man, Dragons are no longer needed, they’re not a dominant species, we don’t need them to hold our hands anymore. We’ve proven ourselves very capable at being this surviving, wilful humanity. I mean, we’ve proved that with Algalon, OK, Titans are not gonna come and re-originate the planet, we’ve been to the Hour of Twilight, it’s a new era. OK, I get that, it’s been done in fantasy before. However, unlike Lord of the Rings, the Dragons are not just gonna peacefully coexist and just kind of fade into the background having magical powers or go to Dragon heaven or whatever the hell they wanna do. They’re just gonna become sterile because- like, I feel like CDev got backed into a corner, didn’t wanna deal with Dragons anymore, and then had NO creative ideas about how to just let them peacefully coexist, no, they had to make them sterile and then just not actually reason why that would occur at all.
Folami: Yeah, and now that they’re mortal we also don’t know how much longer they’re going to be around. I mean, you take Alexstrasza, Nozdormu and Ysera, they’ve been around for so long, how much longer could they realistically live? Are they going to start feeling their age? While the younger Dragons can stay young for however long they’re going to live.
Apple Cider: Mmhmm. It- so at some point in Azeroth’s future, all of the Dragons are gonna be gone. Like, all of them.
Folami: And that makes me so sad.
Apple Cider: It makes me sad!
Tzufit: Me too! I guess I understand- there’s- I never really cared for the idea that it was time to get rid of the Aspects but I can understand why it was necessary to do so, because if the Aspects are so powerful, then the obvious answer to every possible problem is, “Well, why can’t the Aspects help us?” and in the past it made a little more sense that they didn’t intervene on every little thing because they didn’t have the greatest relationship with mortal races, and they kind of held themselves aloof from a lot of the stuff that we got ourselves into, but now that that’s really no longer the case and that they really have lived among mortals, in the case of Kalecgos has had a relationship with a mortal, like- there seems to be a lot more understanding and kind of community than there was in the past. So, I can understand why you needed to get rid of the Aspects’ powers because obviously any time there’s a big, big threat to the mortal races, of course the aspects are gonna come help. So, you know, if you kind of get rid of that MacGuffin, then the rest of it is just- it still doesn’t make sense why they don’t get to stick around. It doesn’t.
Apple Cider: Yeah, you’d think that they would just kind of retreat to their caves or their clutches or whatever, and just- just live out their days. Just live out their days as a mortal race. They don’t have the world-shaping powers the did anymore, so it isn’t necessary to pretend that they’re gonna come and save humanity or intervene. They’re gonna- I mean, look what happened with all of Kalecgos’s friends and family. They just all decided to fly off and go look at [edited] and, you know, research things. That’s all the Dragons would be doing. But apparently creative development decided that there needed to be a more permanent solution, despite it making absolutely no sense.
Tzufit: I think one of the issues is that CDev has this tendency to treat these supposedly minor pieces of lore either as if, “Oh, you know, we’re gonna reveal it two or three years down the road when it actually becomes relevant to the story at hand,” or it’s just not even something that’s occurred to them and then, you know, they’ve gotta think up an answer on the spot because somebody asks, “Well, OK, what’s going on with this now?” and they need to have an answer for that, especially if it’s, like, an author trying to write one of the novels for them. Unfortunately, what you end up with when things are as piecemeal as they are with WoW’s lore is contradictory stuff, stuff that’s gross unintentionally, stuff that just is completely illogical, it’s really all over the board.
Apple Cider: And then, how much it actually makes to the game is also kind of up in the air. Like, I’ve played World of Warcraft for nine years, most of my game time has been- you know, I dabble in the lore, I read a lot of things, I miss a lot of quests but anybody who’s just playing the game and not reading the books is gonna have no idea why this is happening, no idea what’s going on, the Dragons are just gonna disappear. Like, it just makes no sense, and then when you actually start to really dig into the extra extended universe stuff, it’s still not there. It’s still- that story is still missing, so it’s like, how do you mess up that badly to have all of this lore and to make all of these decisions, and to insert a throwaway line, a couple of throwaway lines, into one of your books and then still not have that reasoning anywhere. Like, did that get chopped out of the books? Did that get chopped out of, like, Dawn or Twilight or even the game itself? Like, how did that- how did that happen? Where did that get taken out? And it’s obvious they have an answer for it, because they obviously talked about it, but why didn’t it make it to ANYWHERE in the universe, books, website, game, otherwise?
Folami: It’s just another one of those things, like, you have entire characters who only exist in the book, or characters who have- who are also in the books and in the game who are dead, but still walking around in the game, and stuff. It’s- so- that’s always been there, but something this huge, and it is huge to say that an entire race is going to die out, is just treated as, “Oh, yeah, whatever.”
Tzufit: Yeah, and to revisit Apple Cider’s point- and I know this is kind of something we hammered on earlier as well, but- I think when I read the Warcraft external stuff, and I certainly haven’t read all of it, but I’ve read a decent amount. The thing that repeatedly strikes me is that I always come out of them extremely disappointed because I realize that- you know, so for example if somebody says, “I don’t understand what happened with the whole Emerald Nightmare thing, and where that went on and, you know, what happened and what was going on,” and somebody says, “OK, well, go read Wolfheart.” And you go read Wolfheart and what you basically get is that the Emerald Nightmare happened. You know what I mean? Like, you could get as much from reading the novel as you could just reading the synopsis on WoWPedia because there really is- the authors are allowed to explore so little of the lore, just like we were saying with Dawn of the Aspects, where we got nothing out of this book except for the fact that the Aspects became the Aspects, and we don’t even really see any- any indication of what that even MEANS, exactly. We get NOTHING else, there’s NOTHING that enriches that story, that part of the lore. So, it truly is just, here’s point A, here’s point C, the book gives you point B, and you could’ve gotten point B in fifteen other ways.
Apple Cider: Yeah, and then- and then some things just don’t even- like, it feels like some of the really big things that you really would love to have them noodle on for three hundred pages are secondary plots to whatever is plot-relevant to the book. So, like, if you told me where I wanted to find out about the Emerald Nightmare, and you told me a book called Wolfheart, why does that- I mean, that doesn’t sound to me like that is a place that I would find out about it, and doesn’t seem like that book in particular even talks about the Emerald Nightmare consistently through the entire book. It feels like it’s, like, a B-plot versus an A-plot.
Folami: Yeah, and that book is specifically for Varian Wrynn. So, even the title, you know, tells me, that’s not gonna include anything about the druids and the Emerald Nightmare or anything like that.
Apple Cider: Yeah, so it’s like, what points are these- what are the books even- what are the books even doing at this point, or have been doing? They don’t seem to tell me anything relevant about particular lore points, they don’t seem to structure them in a way that makes them a focus, like- what’s going on? The only books that I’ve seen or read that seem to have the focus be on the things that they’re supposed to be talking about are- Tides of War and the Arthas novels so far.
Tzufit: Well, my argument there is two things, ’cause I thought about Arthas as well and Arthas is easily and by far my favorite of the Warcraft books that I’ve read. However, Arthas is one hundred percent pre-existing lore that comes from the previous games. Now, for me, because I didn’t play the RTS games, that was a new story, so coming into it, reading it, it was like, “Oh! Look at all this stuff about Arthas when he was a kid, and how things went wrong for him!” So to me at that point it was new and it was interesting, and with Tides of War, honestly, I would say that that hits on the exact same issue as the rest of it. There’s the question of, OK, why are we doing this Theramore scenario in game, and somebody tells you, go read Tides of War, and you’ll find that out but it’s not- there’s nothing- there’s nothing meaningful and enriching about what you find out in the books, versus just knowing that that’s what happens. I guess what I’m trying to convey is that the experience of reading the books is in no way special or different than just going and grabbing a synopsis of it somewhere, and I think that’s a fundamental flaw of this system that they’ve set up. If you’re going to put all the lore in external sources, I’ve gotta get something from that process of reading those external sources. It’s gotta be a good experience, and it’s not.
Apple Cider: Mmhmm.
Folami: Yeah, and with Dawn of the Aspects, the way it starts out, Kalec finds this artifact after they have a summit at Wyrmrest Temple where basically Alexstrasza, Nozdormu, and Ysera all pretty much say they’re just gonna stop meeting each other and just kind of go sulk, I guess, in their own little parts of the world because what’s the big deal, what’s the point anymore, and even at the end of the book Kalec reminds them, again, the whole point apparently was so that they would be reminded of this oath they took with the Titans and what they went through when they first became the Aspects. Even after being reminded of that, that hey, you know, we had a purpose apart from just this one thing, there’s still a question, you know, of, is this gonna help anything? They still kind of go their separate ways, and maybe they’ll meet again and continue doing what they’ve been doing, maybe they won’t, and there was just- there was no real resolution at all at the end of the book.
Tzufit: Yeah, there’s just never any- there’s never any real or honest progression to the stories that happen in the books, and I guess that’s- that’s the part, to me, that really gets under my skin, and it’s the reason why I really just don’t feel like this is a good model or something I wanna support, because it’s so disingenuous to say, “Yeah, this story is, you know, fully explained and fully explored in the novels!” and it’s like, no, it’s not! I read three hundred pages of these [edited] Dragons running back and forth across Northrend chasing a big Dragon, fighting people a couple of times, and I learned jack [edited].
Apple Cider: Yeah. Especially when the whole point was to us to uncover the mystery of why they’re sterile! And we- no! It’s not- like, it’s still not being answered here, and that’s kind of the whole firmament. Like, and- and it’s like- I feel like in some ways, unintentionally, the Titans are this giant allegory for the creative development team in that they’re these feckless masters that wander from one place to the next, dropping people in, changing things here, and then walking away from it and never looking back and never resolving anything, and I would- if I was a Dragon, I would rightly be pissed at the Titans if I got sterility with no other word other than, “Oh, well, I guess that’s the way it is!” And that’s how I feel about CDev at this point.
Tzufit: You just blew my mind with that.
Apple Cider: (Laughing)
Folami: Yeah, that was-
Tzufit: I mean-
Folami: That was probably the best metaphor ever.
Tzufit: Seriously! And I’ve- I have to wonder, of course, if that means that, like, fanfiction equates to the Old Gods, then.
Apple Cider: Yeah… I-
Apple Cider: I keep blowing my mind with this podcast, because at first I liked the Klaxxi, and then I realized that the Klaxxi were terrible, and I really liked the Empress, and now I’m like, you know what? The Old Gods don’t seem so bad at this point, and this is something that got brought up when I read Charge of the Aspects- which, by the way, we have still not figured out when that story got posted. We’re- it’s a pretty important text that kind of gives you a little bit of backstory if you didn’t read Twilight and wanted to know why you’re actually in Dragon Soul in all of the five-mans- but Deathwing visits Thrall in his, like, spirit wandering elemental shaman phase under the world, and he has this conversation with Thrall and Thrall’s like, “But I’m gonna do this thing with the Aspects and it’s a gift, not a curse!” And Deathwing is like:
“A gift?” Deathwing snarled. “You are as misguided as the other Aspects, too fool to recognize that the charges imposed upon us are nothing more than prisons.”
Apple Cider: And guess what? I agree with him.
Folami: Yeah, I remember reading that, and then when Deathwing also says, “Here, feel what I feel,” and suddenly Thrall feels basically Azeroth as it is kind of torn apart in places and all this pain and suffering, I’m like, what person wouldn’t go kind of [edited] with that, regardless of an Old God whispering in their ear?
Tzufit: And I think- (sigh) this is, you know, not to- not to just kind of jump on everything this week, but what the hell, this is-
Apple Cider: (Laughing)
Tzufit: -again one of the reasons why it [edited] me off to no end that we take giant side steps from the story to do things like go back and revisit everybody’s favorite Orcs out in Draenor for the next probably year and a half of our World of Warcraft lives, rather than doing anything with these giant loose ends with the Titans, with the Aspects, with the Old Gods. Like, I understand that we don’t all wanna fight gaping maws repeatedly in every raid instance from now to eternity, but tell us what the hell is going on with that, or give us any advancement of that plotline, because we just- we see Titan creations, we see this stuff all over the place, and we still get no sense of what’s going on, and you- it’s- this is not how you write a story!
Apple Cider: (Chuckling)
Folami: And a lot of what drives me [edited], you know, like new players come in, like I came in in Cataclysm, and they had revamped all these old zones so you’re kind of going back and forth between “Deathwing’s about to kill us!” to “The Burning Legion’s about to kill us!” and you’re just kind of- what?
Folami: Wait a minute, five seconds ago there was a big Dragon breathing fire on me, what’s going on now? And, you know, it’s kind of like- like each of these zones are kind of like a playroom, and the toys that they’ve played with, and you have Dalaran which is all nice and everything, with no reflection of current lore, which is basically there are no Horde in Dalaran anymore, and, you know, it’s just kind of like someone was playing with this during Wrath, and then they just kind of walked away to the next little zone in Cataclysm or in Mists of Pandaria and they kind of let their toys out for everyone else to play with, and there’s no connection between it.
Apple Cider: Yeah. I- (chuckles) I kind of harp on the Titans allegory thing, too, it’s like, yeah, I think the creators imprison characters in this, like, plot of their own making without a real regard for what’s actually going on with them? And I think this is one of the reasons I get so upset about the Dragons in particular, is because- and I know we have a WHOLE LIST of notes about this, is- (sigh) the creators just have tortured the Dragons, at every opportunity possible.
Folami: Yeah, and one of the things that I noted, like, on Twitter and here in our notes is that, like, when Alexstrasza’s kidnapped and she’s forced to breed and forced to do all these horrible things, you know, she walks away from that, doesn’t bring it back up, you know, it happens to Kirygosa in Twilight of the Aspects, she’s kidnapped, she’s- fortunately she’s not raped, she manages to escape before that happens, but you know that was gonna be what was going to happen to her if she’d stayed. Still, her eggs are experimented on, she’s forced to watch these eggs hatch into these deformed hatchlings that have no chance of living at all, and then later on in Cataclysm questing you encounter this Dragon, Rheastrasza, who at Alexstrasza’s request is experimenting on Black Dragon eggs and to do this she has captured a Black Dragon and is forcing her basically to lay eggs so that she can experiment on them and find a way to get rid of the Old God taint. And, there’s no, kind of, “Why would Alexstrasza do this? She’s lived through this. Why would she sentence another Dragon, regardless of what Flight it is, to the same kind of suffering?”
Apple Cider: Oh, you mean they don’t do that on a regular basis, where they make abused women in the World of Warcraft storyline magically turn into their abusers in the next page? Like Sylvanas and Jaina…
Folami: Yeah, pretty much, but- (cuts out)
Apple Cider: (Laughing)
Tzufit: Yeah, that is really bizarre. Especially given, having just read Dawn of the Aspects which seems to be very much reinforcing the notion that, yes, we all have our separate Dragonflights, but fundamentally one of the things that Tyr notices about the five Aspects who he picks out is just how strong the bond of loyalty is between all of them. Ysera and Alexstrasza are sisters, but everybody else is- they’re not related to each other, and that’s one of the most important characteristics that Tyr notices for them, so you would really think that even now there would be some sense of solidarity between the Flights, you know, so that somebody like Alexstrasza wouldn’t look at a Black Dragon and think, “I’m going to harm her in exactly the same ways that I have been harmed.”
Apple Cider: Yeah, it’s a lack of empathy that you would not expect out of Alexstrasza. Like, even if-
Tzufit: Out of her specifically.
Apple Cider: Yeah, yeah. The Black Dragonflight has done a lot of terrible [edited], obviously we know that Deathwing corrupted the Dragon Soul to try and enslave all of them, it’s why the Blue Dragonflight got so messed up, it’s why the Red Dragonflight got so messed up, it’s like why literally everything bad happened. But even still, Alexstrasza would never characterize- like, she would never be a character that would specifically capture a Dragon to harness her eggs and have players beat her into submission. Like, that- (frustrated noises).
Folami: Yeah, and it’s kind of like Rheastrasza tells you that, you know, “Alexstrasza’s asked me to do this, we’re doing this in secret,” and one of the things that kind of struck me is that at the end of that questline, Rheastrasza dies, she sacrifices herself and one of her eggs to kind of fool Deathwing into thinking he’s killed her and the eggs that she’s cleansed, which you know that egg that is cleansed it goes on to live is, of course, little baby Wrathion.
Apple Cider: Yeah.
Folami: And so it’s just kind of like, can’t trace it back to her now, you know, this was- this technically never happened.
Tzufit: And we- revisit, just for a second in case we have any relatively newer listeners who haven’t covered this with us before, we have discussed some of the grossness that goes on with Dragons in previous episodes, particularly the sexuality episode and briefly in the brutality episode, and just to reiterate what we said in those, again: if you have any doubt that forced breeding of Dragons doesn’t equate to rape, let’s just remember that Dragons are fully sentient beings. They’re intelligent, they feel pain, they are probably way more intelligent than any of the mortal races on Azeroth, they are- you know, they have full agency, there’s absolutely no reason that we should think forcing them to breed is OK or think of them as animals in that sense.
Folami: Yeah, and Nyxondra, at the end of that questline as well, is- you- Rheastrasza says that you have to kill her, and she’s up and she’s flying around and she’s basically screaming about what you’ve done to her children, and she’s- well, she’s gone [edited] and I didn’t understand this, that apparently Neltharion or Deathwing’s [edited] has spread to the rest of his Dragonflight. I don’t know how that happened other than somehow they’re connected on kind of this mental level that I’m not aware of. So, why all the Black Dragons are just as [edited] as Deathwing I don’t know but basically, “Oh, yeah, you have to go kill her now, after you’ve done all these horrible things to her, now, you know, you’re gonna go and just end her life.”
Apple Cider: Yeah, which also makes no sense, too, because if you think about Malygos, Malygos went [edited] and the rest of the Blues weren’t affected by it, so…
Tzufit: Yeah, that actually is problematic, now that you say it, and I- to my knowledge, I cannot think of a place where the, you know, combined [edited] or whatever of the Black Dragonflight is explained as anything more than just, “It spread from Deathwing.” Hard stop, pretty much.
Folami: (Chuckling) Yeah, I could see it maybe being in his eggs and that’s why you have to go for his eggs, but why would his consort, you know, and then all the other Dragons, apparently? Cause you end up wiping them out, I think, in Twilight Highlands, they even tell you, there’s one more Black Dragon that’s left that’s able to be bred and you have to go off and kill her hatchlings and kill her.
Tzufit: Right, yeah, I remember that, you go into her den-
Apple Cider: Yeah. (Laughing) What? It’s inconsistent? That makes no sense! Even with the previous examples that we talked about in earlier episodes, there are so many instances of really gross stuff, which is why I think the outcry about the sterility was so big. I mean, obviously there’s multiple reasons, but the outcry was so big because you’re taking these Dragons, particularly Alexstrasza, who was- who have been through so much abuse and rape and breeding and all of this, and you’re- and that’s it, you’re just- you’re doing the kind of ultimate abuse on them after all this.
Folami: Yeah, it’s kind of like their fertility has always been a weapon to use against them.
Apple Cider: Mmhmm.
Tzufit: Yes, mmhmm!
Folami: And now it’s the lack of fertility is kind of gonna be the thing that’s driving- like, Alexstrasza is just- it’s bringing her down, understandably so.
Apple Cider: Yeah. Well, do you wanna- do we wanna go into the history? Do we wanna go into the Grimdark history that is World of Warcraft’s and Warcraft’s extended universe parade of horrors? (Laughing)
Tzufit: Kirygosa’s story is so gross and awful that this- this is probably worth delving into a little bit, and obviously trigger warnings here for things like mind control and (sigh) not rape but- borderline rape so, just, yeah. It’s gonna be gross, I’m sorry.
Folami: Yeah, she’s one of those, like I said, that she’s not in the game that I’m aware of but she’s mentioned in Twilight of the Aspects and then she kind of makes a brief appearance at the beginning of Tides of War, she’s the one who kind of talks to Kalecgos about, “Hey, it’s OK, you know, things are different now.” I was still kind of confused about her history. At the end of the Nexus war, her and her mate were in a battle- Jarygos. And apparently Jarygos was killed in the battle in the Nexus war, and Kirygosa went missing and was presumed to be dead with him… and then in Twilight of the Aspects- the Twilight Father shows up and he’s got this woman on a chain with this collar around her neck and you later learn that this is actually Kirygosa.
Apple Cider: Hmm.
Folami: Yeah, and it was actually kind of this big reveal that it was Kirygosa, and- what happened is, she was pregnant when she was kidnapped, so the eggs that she lays are with her now-deceased mate, Jarygos, and those eggs are then used to be experimented upon, her body is also experimented upon, there’s a remark that, you know, there’s cuts and there’s bruises and things on her body, basically, from medical experimentation.
Apple Cider: Ohhh god. ‘Cause that’s not horrifying.
Folami: Yeah, um… and there’s just this kind of sick bondage twist on some of it with the fact that, you know, she wears this collar and there’s even a statement that they don’t wanna desensitize her to the pain because then she might get used to it and not heed them anymore.
Apple Cider: Sorry, I’m kind of just reeling from all of that. (Laughing incredulously)
Tzufit: (Chuckling nervously)
Folami: Yeah, it’s pretty horrendous. I mean, I remember reading it and just being extremely uncomfortable with the whole scenario, and, you know, at one point after her eggs are experimented on, she turns to Twilight Father who is Archbishop Benedict, as you don’t know that at this point, and tells him, “Well, at least these are the only eggs I will ever lay. There aren’t gonna be any more because my mate is dead,” and he kind of, you know… in the typical villain way says, “Well, you know, you might meet somebody else,” and that somebody else turns out to be Chromatus who is the Chromatic Dragon with five heads, each of them from one of the Dragonflights, you know? And he even talks to her later and you get the sense that, yeah, he’s going to rape her, and that’s the point where she manages to escape.
Tzufit: Yeah, the notion that it’s OK to put that in- (laughing) I mean, I- it’s hard for me to imagine just how much the community would erupt if, say, that was Jaina, right? And they did that, you know, in-game where everybody would actually see it rather than spirited away in a book. But if it were a human character, and if it were in the game, can you even imagine the [edited]storm that would happen over something like that? And because this is a very minor character, because she’s a Dragon, and because this is a subplot in one of the novels, it’s a thing that just passes by all the time.
Apple Cider: Yeah. Should- should say, though, that in our notes a picture of Kirygosa has been provided where she is dressed up… to look like slave Leia from- from Star Wars, complete with the, you know- we’ll include a link to it in the podcast notes, but um… she’s also kept in human form, because it’s less troublesome than her being a Dragon. Take that as you want.
Folami: Yeah, that’s the point of the collar, it keeps her from transforming and, you know, the idea, I guess, from the Twilight Father’s perspective is this, you know, is a much less troublesome shape, easier to control, and- you know, I remember when I saw the picture at- I think it’s an official Blizzard picture? I couldn’t really- I was looking on Wowpedia trying to determine where it came from and it says it came from the novels, but I remember when that picture went live, and I was just like, “Oh my god, they are not even trying to hide the fact that this is what they wanted- this is the image they want to invoke.” And, um, some of that picture has actually, for Kirygosa’s page, has been cut out so that you don’t see the Twilight Father you just see her kind of sitting there with this collar around her neck and then this kind of loose fitting blue dress.
Apple Cider: And- it’s- it’s like- it should be noted that this- this has been a persistent… underscored plot since… Burning Crusade. Like, I- obviously, I know that this happened- this happened with, um… with the Red Dragonflight- when, when did the-
Folami: In the second war, was when-
Apple Cider: The second war!
Apple Cider: So it’s before World of Warcraft, but this continued into World of Warcraft. If any of you guys remember doing the Netherwing quests, this is more of the same with the Black Dragonflight experimenting on eggs and smothering, you know, stealing eggs away, and the whole Nether Flight is presumably from Deathwing, who- by the way, Deathwing was in Outlands for a long period of time on an island off the coast, I might add. He was responsible for the Nether- the Nether Flight because I think he brought either Black Dragonflight eggs or Blue Dragonflight eggs to Outlands, and then it warped them somehow?
Tzufit: Right, yeah, they basically wanted to see what the Nether energy did to them, and that’s where you see- that’s where you first meet Sinestra in World of Warcraft, ’cause she’s in charge of, you know, sort of overseeing and protecting those eggs.
Apple Cider: Yeah. So this is- it’s not even the first time this has happened. This has- this has been going on for a very long time.
Folami: And it’s just- it always seems to be happening within the context of, “That Dragon and that particular bad guy,” it doesn’t carry over, there’s never any more mention of it, there’s never any kind of glimpse that, you know, these women have to live with this for the rest of their lives. There’s never any sort of thing that this is anything other than just basically one more thing, one more step on the bad guy checklist.
Apple Cider: Yeah.
Tzufit: Exactly. Yeah.
Apple Cider: It-
Tzufit: It’s almost at this point, it’s like you’re just supposed to accept that this is what the Dragonflights do to each other. But, why? Why should we accept that?
Apple Cider: Yeah. I mean, it’s- it’s really, um… it’s just- it’s so problematic, and I know that they’re trying to drive home the fact that the Black Dragonflight is evil and terrible, and that Deathwing is crazy, but it just- it’s so gendered, and it’s so problematic, and it’s so dark for World of Warcraft. And the fact that it’s still continuing on with even some of the newer CDev writers, like Kosak is new by World of Warcraft standards, he is a new writer and I put that in air-quotes that you can’t see, and the fact that he seems to be continuing this kind of grimdark line, like- Kosak has spoken on record about the Nyxondra thing, and repeatedly mentioned that it is rape, that is rape, you’re basically beating up a rape victim, and- the fact that this plot has been going on from the second war into World of Warcraft into several expansions later, and it keeps going on and it keeps happening and it- like- Mists of Pandaria is the first expansion that we don’t have Dragons, you know, having something happen to them, because apparently, you know, all of the eggs were destroyed by the end of Cataclysm or whatever, but it’s just- it gets- it gets tiring, and it seems to only happen to, you know, women dragons. I mean- I- we do have notes about some of the male Dragons that get harmed, and I know this was brought up on Twitter, but if you look- if you put a tally list of the extremely gendered violence that occurs it’s- it’s inescapable, basically.
Folami: It’s overwhelmingly female, and when it happens to a male, you take note because that’s just the exception to what has become basically the rule, and it’s also this lazy storytelling, you know? OK, I need to demonstrate that this guy is really bad and we need to get rid of him. What’s the quickest way I can do that?
Tzufit: Yeah, it’s- I mean, it’s the same thing that they’re guilty of with Garrosh and, you know, having Garrosh perpetrate all these really disgusting war crimes in Orgrimmar, because they need him to truly be like the, you know, mustache-twirling villain.
Folami: Yeah, there’s never any subtle way to go about it with him, it’s just- you’re kind of smacked with this huge hammer of grossness, and it’s just put there, you know, basically it’s just there for the moment, it’s not making any sort of statement about it. Like, I’ve said before, you can write about rape, you can write about, you know, these horrific awful things, but don’t write about them just for the sake of shock value.
Tzufit: Yeah, exactly.
Folami: And that’s what this is. It’s just shock value. everything that happens to Kirygosa happens within the confines of Twilight of the Aspects. It’s not- the experimentation done on her, the horrible things that happen to her, aren’t mentioned in Tides of War, and she’s there basically to kind of be this shoulder for Kalecgos to kind of cry on, to kind of, you know, vent to.
Apple Cider: Yeah. The- the pain and suffering of the women of the Blue Dragonflight in particular, because- remember Malygos’s consort gets offed in the quest that you do in Borean Tundra.
Apple Cider: All of the stories that focus on Kalecgos never mention any of this. They don’t mention what happened to Kirygosa, they don’t mention what happened to- I think her name is Saragosa, maybe?
Folami: Saragosa, and also what happens to the woman who DOES that to her!
Apple Cider: Yes, Keristrasza.
Folami: (At the same time) Keristrasza.
Apple Cider: Who is a Red, yeah! So it’s like- all of these plots center on men, gloss over the [edited] that happens to women, it’s just like- and I have this theory that this stuff happens because it’s gruesome enough because the Dragons are sentient creatures, but because they turn into animals they get treated like animals because the writers are terrible.
Folami: Yeah, sadly that sounds very much- (chuckles) like, you know, closer to the truth, and that they feel like they can get away with more with the Dragons than they could, like you said, if they did it to Jaina or if they picked, you know, a random female NPC out of, you know, the few that we have that we’re well acquainted with inside the game.
Apple Cider: Yeah. That they- they basically relegate the Dragonflights to being not only the magical Aspect world savers, you know, up until the point of Cataclysm, but they’re also the whipping girls of the- of humanity, basically. And this kind of raises a kind of scary question: if the Dragonflights are dying out and they don’t have a story purpose, where do you think all the grimdark is gonna go?
Tzufit: Yeah. Well, I think also if the Dragonflights are dying out and if they’re now mortal and therefore I would imagine even easier to subjugate than they apparently were in the past, despite having ridiculous amounts of power, and yet somehow, you know, a couple of [edited] mortals were always able to find a way to control them somehow. It just kind of makes you wonder, too, how gross their last remaining years are gonna be.
Apple Cider: Yeah. Although, if they can’t have any more eggs, what’s their usefulness in-
Tzufit: Wow. Yeah, that’s true.
Folami: Yeah, and they don’t have quite the level of power they did anymore, so they can’t be used as weapons, really. That also brings up the question, who are the Old Gods gonna start whispering to now?
Apple Cider: Yeah.
Apple Cider: A lot of gross questions (laughing) we’re raising right now.
Tzufit: Well don’t worry, I’m sure none of them will ever be answered, so…
Apple Cider: (Chuckling) Yeah, it’s- it- and that’s- going back to the sterility thing, that’s one of the reasons why the sterility thing is so gross, because, yeah, like you said, it’s pushing them aside because their ultimate purpose has been fulfilled in both a literal sense and a metanarrative sense. Their purpose – Aspects, breed, breeding fodder – has been fulfilled. So now they’re gonna get pushed off to the side, permanently, and then- OK, so let- OK, I’m gonna just come right out and say it, making them sterile after literally all of this happened to them bothers me for the same reason that the boys-trip comment bothered me, because it says a lot about what CDev – who seem to be overwhelmingly fathers, I might add – thinks about mothers, motherhood, reproduction, families. The idea that Dragons are no longer allowed to have families or breed or have children, despite the fact that they could before they became Aspects, um- it says a lot of things about how Blizzard views the parts of their audience that have problems with infertility, sterility, not being able to have kids, wanting to have kids, having kids, how that’s viewed, how motherhood and fatherhood are portrayed in the game, how parents are viewed- you know, like, there’s so much of the audience that they’re pushing away because they keep doing story elements like this.
Folami: Yeah, and they seem just kind of oblivious to this fact, you know, and even when Metzen made the boys’ trip comment, you know, I remember complaining about it on Twitter and just- you know, just being bombarded with all these messages of, “Well, what’s the big deal, the story, you know, is already written, you know, why don’t we wait and see what’s gonna happen and what is the big deal with it, and it’s like, representation is a huge deal to me. You know, as a feminist, and as someone who enjoys playing this game, I want to see more women, I want to see less of the gross stuff, I want to see someone acknowledge to me, “Hey, we realize that this is an issue, and we wanna work to be better than every other media you turn to and see this same [edited] happening.”
Tzufit: Well, and to be fair, World of Warcraft isn’t even as good as a lot of media that’s out there when it comes to this stuff. There are plenty of TV shows, plenty of movies, I would argue even plenty of other video games who deal with this better.
Folami: Exactly! And right now, as I’ve commented, I’ve been playing a little bit of Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn, and one of the things that, you know, struck me, and I hated that it struck me, was when I was playing and- there are a lot of women in positions of power in this game! They influence the story, and, you know, and then I think of games like Bioware where even when they’re kind of gross, the next iteration of that game, they kind of- they’re slowly getting better and they show willingness to listen to their player base and to learn from that.
Tzufit: Yeah, absolutely, and I think- (sigh) you know, I think it is probably harder for Warcraft in some ways to retroactively fix things, because, you know, so- so if there’s something problematic about some woman’s presentation in Mass Effect 1, you’re not gonna go back and change that, but you are gonna think about that as you go into Mass Effect 2 and maybe change some parts of what was going on there. But, with World of Warcraft, they- you know, there’s this expectation that they CAN go back and change some of that stuff that’s technically in the past that’s technically no longer relevant, but it’s still all there. It’s still- (sigh) you can still fix some of this in World of Warcraft and you can fix it on an overarching way, rather than just saying, OK, we’ll do better in the future.
Folami: Yeah, especially with all the time travel we have-
Apple Cider: (Laughing)
Folami: -and we’re going to an alternate universe now? I mean, come on! And you’re gonna do the same old [edited]?!
Apple Cider: Yeah, if they’re- if they- if their comments about how Warlords of Draenor is going to be dark and they’re simply going to do the dark thing that they didn’t have the gumption to do in the main storyline up until now, and relegated it to things like the Dragons, if they bring that into main storyline I’m going to throw a fit.
Folami: I mean, how much darker do you wanna go and- right now this is kind of the trend in fantasy in general, is for this grimdark, this depressing oppressive kind of atmosphere, where nobody really comes out ahead at the end, nobody really wins, and, like, Tzufit, you posted a link to a blog post just yesterday, talking about the story- I wanna say, something about pancakes? It was a Tumblr.
Tzufit: Yeah, Saxymage is the one, I think, who did that.
Folami: Yeah, um… She talked about, you know, how we didn’t really win in Mists of Pandaria. You know, we- the whole big thing was we were gonna take out Garrosh. Well, no. Now he’s in prison and he’s going to escape, there’s no sense that we’re winning anymore. We’re not even gaining any ground anymore.
Tzufit: Yeah, and it’s so funny because I posted- now, this is a while ago at this point, but I remember doing a sum-up post at the end of Cataclysm about how that felt like we didn’t really win. I mean, we pushed Deathwing back, but at what expense?
Folami: Yeah, and like I said, it just seemed like kind of this thing that’s really popular right now. Like, George R. R. Martin and the Game of Thrones where the world is just- this awful, awful place you don’t wanna go live whereas in the past, fantasy has kind of been magic and elves and, you know, unicorns and- I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, but it’s just- can’t we win just one? Can’t we feel like we’ve accomplished something, you know? Why does it always have to be this continual thing where these terrible awful things happen and then nothing ever gets resolved about that?
Tzufit: It’s like how for, like, maybe books one through four, you really really really wanna live at Hogwarts, and then after that, you’re like, “Oh, nah, it’s cool.”
Apple Cider: Yeah. Grimdark tends to fall apart when you are the type of person that already lives in a realistic world where things are [edited]. It- it’s not fun, it’s not fantastical. That is one of the problems that I have with grimdark in general, that’s one of the problems I have with George R. R. Martin, it’s one of the problems I have with Dave Kosak, is that realization that they don’t realize that grimdark is not fun for a lot of people.
Folami: Yeah, and even just as recently as last year in California it came out that female inmates, particularly women of color, had- were sterilized against their will, and this idea of forced pregnancy, of forced breeding and stuff, that’s not all that removed from [reality] for far too many women and the reality of, you know, what’s gonna happen if, you know, a poor woman gets pregnant and doesn’t wanna have a baby, or just wants control over her own fertility? These things we actually face in the real world, and then to go to a fantasy world where we’re supposed to kind of maybe escape them a little bit and just kind of have it thrown in our face like it’s no big deal- it really turns us off of it.
Apple Cider: Yeah, that’s a really good point.
Tzufit: And I would also say, too, that- I think grimdark can be done in a way that’s compelling, that’s interesting, that makes you think about stuff differently, and I think it can be done in extraordinarily lazy ways that are just there for shock value, and I think that Blizzard in particular should not attempt grimdark because they just don’t have the story chops to pull it off.
Folami: Yeah, and you’re doing grimdark in this world where you have Dwarves that are just, you know, I’ve seen the recent animations which look fantastic, and they’re just kinda these jolly happy creatures, it looks like, even the new model of the Orc laugh. I mean, it looks hilarious, and you have the Pandaria- the male dance that’s the- the shuffling song. (Laughing) I can’t remember it.
Folami: But, you know, you have these silly things that happen, and it looks kind of bright and cheery, and you have some wonderful characters in the game, and then all of a sudden you turn around and you pull away some of the layers, and it’s just all this awfulness underneath it.
Apple Cider: Yeah.
Tzufit: Yeah, that’s a great point, that the aesthetic of the game itself really does not match this direction that they’re going with the narrative, and I have to wonder if some of that is that there’s kind of this push in the last, like, five or ten years, especially with video games, where it’s like, if you’re not telling this very serious, very dark, very end-of-the-world narrative, then you’re not doing it correctly, or it’s- it’s not a game that matters to people unless you have that kind of story, and it’s like, psshhh, no!
Apple Cider: It’s obvious that they can tell a story that is emotionally mangling without being torturous. Look at-
Tzufit: Ji and Aysa!
Apple Cider: JI AND AYSA! That’s an emotional story that has elements of tragedy but also doesn’t make you feel gross at the end of the day! That’s the- they- somebody mentioned this on Purple Parlor, but when you pair grimdark, badly done grimdark, next to cartoony pop culture references, all of the really emotional stuff in the middle that you want to tell, the moment gets stolen because you can’t put somebody’s intestines falling out of their body and maim and rape and pillage next to an Indiana Jones reference.
Tzufit: And, I would argue that you cheapen those very serious things by putting them next to it, and kind of almost treating that as if it’s a joke, as if it’s a thing that doesn’t actually happen, as if that violence is something to laugh at too.
Apple Cider: See some of the responses to Sean Copeland and his sterility conversation that I got involved in, with people cracking jokes about the women dragons having their reproductive organs being shredded inside of them.
Tzufit: Oh my gosh!
Folami: I- fortunately missed-
Tzufit: Glad I didn’t see that.
Folami: Yeah, I’m glad I kinda stopped reading through that. That’s just- like I said, the forced sterility, a lot of people don’t realize, still happens in America.
Apple Cider: Yeah.
Folami: In the United States of America, we even have a history of this and eugenics and stuff. It goes on, all across the world, it happens here and those of us who kind of keep abreast of some of these issues- we hear about it, we learn about it, and then we turn around to our entertainment, and we’re bombarded with it from a completely fictional standpoint.
Apple Cider: Yeah. Exactly. That’s- yeah. That’s basically the takeaway of it, is the sterility thing and the reproductive thing, the reproductive choice thing is such a big deal when you look at the current political climate, when you look at current history, the choice to have kids on your own terms or not have kids on your own terms being reflected in a videogame about [edited] Dragons? It’s- gross. It’s gross as hell.
Folami: Yeah, and there’s just this- there’s no consequence to it that’s shown in the game. There’s no consequences for all this awfulness and the reason we killed Deathwing wasn’t because of what happened to Alexstrasza or what happened to other Dragons, the Nether Dragons. We killed him because he was going to destroy Azeroth and that’s all most people care about. If it were done in kind of this realistic way or to raise awareness of these very real problems, it wouldn’t be nearly so bad, but they’re just kind of trivialized so much and that’s just always what drives me up the wall about this stuff in video games and what people never seem to understand why, you know, I get so worked up about this stuff.
Tzufit: It’s never done with respect. You know, if it were just treated with any level of respect, then there are ways that it could be included in the story and not be gross and problematic and harmful.
Folami: Yeah, we’re never invited to kind of sympathize with Nyxondra, you know, it’s just kind of expected that we’re gonna do this because, hey, a Red Dragon’s asking us to do this, it must be OK.
Apple Cider: Or, it needs to even give a reason, a contextual in-universe reason, why it’s going on. That’s the- the underscoring to a lot of the torture aspects, that we’re not even given a good reason as to why it’s happening. Not that a reason, I think, would make it- give it a pass, but that it would even make sense. It feels very senseless.
Tzufit: So, to bring us back a little bit- (chuckles)
Apple Cider: (Laughing)
Tzufit: -to the actual Dawn of the Aspects book, after that very long but very necessary segue, one of the things that we actually do get in Dawn of the Aspects is a little bit of action on the Jaina front. Now, nothing that actually progresses her story in any meaningful way whatsoever, but we do see her and Kalecgos interacting a couple of times- and I’m just gonna add to that, unfortunately.
Apple Cider: (Chuckling)
Folami: Yeah, I actually- I was talking on Twitter, I have a note here. Kalecgos in this book was just… I can’t even explain it. It’s just plot-[edited] because he seems very different from the Kalecgos I read about in Twilight of the Aspects, and- you know, my notes on here, basically, so many of them say, “He’s ignoring Jaina, lying to Jaina, Jaina again, Jaina-” you know, and it’s not that Jaina’s in the book a whole lot, it’s that Kalecgos is either thinking of her or treating her kind of in this really awful fashion.
Tzufit: Yeah, and I would say- now, I have not read Twilight of the Aspects, but I read Tides of War, and this Kalecgos bears almost no resemblance to the Kalecgos in Tides of War, either, who is very capable, who is, you know, a very good magician, he’s very good at strategy, he understands- he understands, basically! Whereas the Kalecgos in this book- like you said, just- I guess, to serve the plot, comes across as bumbling, incapable, and, like, could there really not have been any other choice for somebody else to take over for Malygos? Cause this guy CLEARLY was not the right one.
Folami: Yeah, he was very competent in Twilight of the Aspects, and in Tides of War, you know, he showed some competency and I think part of that is that, you know, Twilight and Tides of War were written by Christie Golden, and then we have Dawn of the Aspects which is Richard Knaak, and… what astounded me was, you know, on the one hand Kalecgos has this artifact that’s driving him [edited], he’s- it’s making him black out and show him places he doesn’t remember flying to, like, halfway across Azeroth, and he thinks, “Jaina’s really smart, she’s almost as good as a Blue Dragon would be with magic, for not being a- [glitch noise] I’m not gonna involve her in this, I’m gonna ignore her for her own safety.”
Tzufit: Yeah, and that is said repeatedly throughout the book, that it’s all about, “Oh, well, I don’t wanna involve Jaina in this for her own good,” more or less.
Folami: Yeah, while some of it is acknowledging that she’s really powerful and really smart and could possibly figure this stuff out – which she does, by the way-
Folami: -and it’s just- I was kind of wanting to throw the book down and just bang my head on the desk repeatedly.
Tzufit: And that is the one thing that I can give the book credit for, is that, you know, Kalecgos thinks he’s being so stealthy with the whole thing where it’s like, you know, he’s calling out her name and he doesn’t even realize that he’s calling out her name. He thinks he hears her calling to him, and he’s like, “What’s wrong, Jaina? What do you need?” and she’s like, “Dude, you’ve been calling me all day. What’s your problem?”
Apple Cider: (Laughing hard) It’s like he’s butt-dialing or something.
Folami: (Laughing) Exactly!
Tzufit: So, like, that is one thing I give the book credit for is that, Kalecgos, you are not stealthy, Jaina knows there’s something wrong with you, she knows there’s been something wrong with you from moment one. She figured the entire thing out herself. (Laughing) Like, I mean, EVERY aspect of what was going on with Kalecgos, Jaina figures out, which just cracked me up as I was reading the book, ’cause I was like, “Dude, she knows more about what’s happening to you than you do right now.”
Folami: She breaks into the fricken Nexus-
Folami: -after it’s had its wards reestablished by this artifact so that nobody can interfere, she manages to break into the Nexus to get to him. I mean, she’s pretty awesome in this book in a lot of respects, but her treatment is just awful, and we’re supposed to sympathize with Kalec whereas I just wanted to strangle him and let him fling himself off the highest point in Azeroth. (Laughing)
Tzufit: Yeah, that is a really- I can’t understand why you would want to write the main character of a book who’s just this bumbly incapable guy, because you’re not gonna sympathize with him as a reader, you just wanna punch him in the face constantly, you know? And I think- for as capable as Jaina comes across throughout most of the book, the one issue that I had with her characterization – and I know you, from your notes Folami, you did as well – is that Jaina is willing to literally drop EVERYTHING that she’s doing for the Kirin Tor and Dalaran, to go figure out what’s wrong with Kalecgos and, to clarify, this is not like, “Hey, Jaina, we need you to sign off on these purchase orders,” or something, this is like, “Hey, Jaina, we’ve got a really big deal that we need your help with,” and Jaina hides in her office and turns herself invisible.
Folami: Yeah, and this is- she doesn’t come out and say it, but this is, in the book, she alludes to the purge of Dalaran. That’s already happened, so we’re pretty far in the plot of Mists of Pandaria. She’s already done some major stuff in Dalaran, and has completely upset the structure there, and she’s still heavily involved with all the stuff, so for her to kind of literally make herself invisible and hide from another Archmage who comes in to try to find her, for the sake of Kalecgos, you know, she’s suddenly gone from, “I’m going to purge all these Sunreavers and Blood Elves and Horde out of Dalaran,” to, “Oh my god, I need to save Kalec,  everything else, let the place burn.”
Apple Cider: Well, you know, Kalec’s the main protagonist of the story, it’s like right over his head, why wouldn’t she, you know, heed his call!
Tzufit: I mean, it also- the other problem with the way that Kalec’s portrayed in this story is that it makes it abundantly clear that he’s really not a good match for Jaina (laughing) you know?
Folami: Yeah, and it’s not just that he’s, you know, trying not to involve her for the sake of her safety, he’s like, “I’m gonna take this artifact, and I’m gonna send it to somewhere in remote Azeroth where no-one will ever find it!” Never Mind that, you know, when he does basically the artifact teleports him there, I guess, and he finds it- and the way the place was described I’m like, you know, someday, some mortal is gonna stumble across this artifact. You know, you didn’t hide it very well. It just- at the one time he’s trying to protect Jaina, he’s pretty much putting the rest of Azeroth at risk.
Tzufit: Yeah, so, needless to say, we loved the book, right? Five out of five stars, recommended to all our friends?
Folami: I will say this: this is the first Knaak book I’ve ever been able to read. I think I got maybe five chapters into War of the Ancients and I just kind of said, “I can’t read this.”
Tzufit: (Chuckling) Well, I had- before we agreed to do this for the podcast, I had actually purchased part one, and- you know, this was a couple of months ago, and I read two pages and I said, “I’m done.”
Apple Cider: The Age of Knaak is over, as far as I’m concerned.
Tzufit: Well, you know, I imagine that maybe we will revisit some Warcraft external universe stuff like maybe when the Dad Crimes book comes out we can-
Apple Cider: (Bursts out laughing)
Folami: Oh god! (Laughing)
Tzufit: -review that, but…
Folami: Trial of the century!
Tzufit: Yeah. I just have to say, though, that talking through it today- I was already angry about external universe stuff, I’ve always been angry about that, but talking through it today has just made me even angrier about how little it actually contributes to our understanding of the lore and how therefore fundamentally useless it is.
Apple Cider: Yeah. We still do not know how or why the Dragons are sterile.
Folami: Yeah, no explanation, no explanation of why the Titans would have this sort of planned obsolescence at all, no insight- any further insight into the Titans’ nature, their decision making, why they would want to do this- why they would wanna appoint Aspects in the first place, if all they’re gonna do at some point is use all their powers and die out. What purpose did that serve at all?
Apple Cider: Right. That’s terrible, at this point, I think.
Folami: And you know, you can only lay the mystery of the Titans at me for so long before I’m just like, “I don’t care anymore.”
Tzufit: Exactly. Yeah, I mean, that’s the thing, is that this is just not how you do a story. If you don’t give people- you have to give them enough to keep us interested and keep us going, and frankly at this point it has been such a dry spell with the Titans that I don’t know how we’re supposed to continue caring about them, especially when we’re about to go into an expansion that is obviously going to divert our attention from that completely.
Folami: Yeah, we’ve had, you know, a little bit of hint from Wrathion that maybe the Burning Legion’s returning, maybe Sargeras is finally gonna come back, and kind of try to destroy us again, but no, first we have to deal with Garrosh again, and I said this on Twitter, I just- for someone who’s always been really into roleplaying and really into the current lore and all that, I just have not been able to get excited about the story of this upcoming expansion. I’m excited about some of the changes coming to, like, PVE, but the story? I’m just kind of like, I don’t care anymore. I’m just gonna go do the quests and whatever, get my XPs.
Apple Cider: I can see why Deathwing in the magical future decided to run himself into a tower, because he’s so fed up.
Apple Cider: -with the Titans.
Folami: Impales himself on the tower of Wyrmrest Accord!
Apple Cider: This is what I feel like doing with Warcraft lore, just impaling myself on a tower and wiping out all life and starting over.
Folami: Just start my own little corner of fanfiction that’s-
Apple Cider: Yeah.
Folami: This is my personal canon.
Tzufit: Just be careful, ’cause one of you out there is C’Thun, and C’Thun and the other one must be Yogg-Saron.
Apple Cider: (Laughing) I’ll take Yogg-Saron. I’m down with that. I’m cool.
Tzufit: (Laughing) Well, Folami, thank you for joining us again. I know we didn’t give you a whole lot of a break (chuckles) between the first time you came on and the second, but watching you tweet about this, it seems like you were obviously the right person to come join us about this because you certainly had a lot of thoughts on it.
Folami: Yeah, um, thank you for having me back again. It’s been a blast, even if the discussion- the subject matter was not so fun.
Apple Cider: (Chuckling)
Tzufit: Yeah. (Chuckles)
Tzufit: And before we head out, let us know where we can find you on Twitter and the internets and all that good stuff.
Folami: I am casualfolami on Twitter, that’s all one word, and my blog for- specifically for World of Warcraft is casualraiding.blogspot.com and it’s updated infrequently, so… don’t expect a whole lot if you go to read there and expect, you know, an update the next day that’s not gonna happen.
Tzufit: (Laughing) Alright, well, thank you again for joining us, and thanks to anybody who is listening. Please go ahead and, if you have any comments, questions, anything we left out that you wanted to talk about, make sure to tweet or email or leave us a comment on the website.
Apple Cider: Yup! We’ll see you next week.
124 episodes available. A new episode about every 7 days averaging 87 mins duration .