#65 - Rick Doblin, Ph.D.: MDMA— the creation, scheduling, toxicity, therapeutic use, and changing public opinion of what is possibly the single most important synthetic molecule ever created by our species

The Peter Attia Drive

In this episode, Rick Doblin, founder and executive director of MAPS, discusses MDMA, a molecule that has (at a minimum) revolutionary therapeutic benefits for PTSD, but arguably could have, at the highest order, a lasting impact on humanity’s ability to peacefully coexist. Rick details the history of MDMA, what lead to its unfortunate criminalization, and his lifelong work trying to protect MDMA (and other psychedelics) from criminalization (and his subsequent attempt to decriminalize it). Through his founding of MAPS, Rick has made enormous progress in debunking many of the exaggerated risks being claimed against MDMA (neurotoxicity, memory loss, depression, Parkinson’s, etc.), and is very close to getting FDA approval for a psychotherapy technique using MDMA. Additionally, in this discussion, you will learn about the history of LSD, psilocybin, and other psychedelics and how the combination of the misunderstanding of them with the crackdown on drug use in the 1970s lead to their designation of schedule 1 substances. But it’s important to note that you will also realize from this discussion just how different MDMA is compared to the average psychedelic. We end this discussion with a message of hope: there are going to be many people who are going to wonder what can they do to receive this MDMA therapy. We talk about what those clinical trials look like, what the enrollment looks like, and perhaps more importantly, what a compassionate use license would look like, such that if there are patients who are in need of this therapy (prior to its approval) they can have an understanding of the legal paths to doing just that.

We discuss:

• Discovering MDMA, how Rick learned about it and his first experiences with it [9:45];
• The timeline of MDMA’s evolution, the reinvention in the 1970s, “ecstasy”, the criminalization of MDMA [21:10];
• Explaining the different “schedules” of drugs [30:55];
• Rick’s fight to protect it for therapeutic uses, losing to the DEA despite winning in the court, the scientific community, and the media [38:25];
• The risks involved with taking MDMA [42:30];
• An incredible MDMA-LSD case study: Rick’s story of healing a treatment-resistant PTSD patient in the 1980s [44:45];
• How and why MDMA was declared illegal on an emergency basis going against the judge’s recommendation after hearing Rick’s compelling case (and multiple appeals) in court [57:15];
• Rick’s decision to study politics to affect change from the inside out, and the recent progress being made with the DEA [1:07:00];
• Debunking the exaggerated risks of MDMA (e.g., neurotoxicity) [1:16:30];
• Rick’s unbelievable ability to play the long game [1:28:45];
• Which patients would not be good candidates for MDMA from a safety perspective? [1:34:30];
• How MDMA is different from all other psychedelics, the importance of the setting, and Peter’s experiences with MDMA [1:36:30];
• MDMA studies which lead to the crucial designation as a “breakthrough therapy” [1:40:30];
• How someone with PTSD can get treated now through “expanded access for compassionate use” [1:46:00];
• Rick’s ultimate goal and long term vision for psychedelic clinics [1:50:30];
• Trip of Compassion documentary, and how psychedelics could change the world [1:52:30];
• Rick’s early life: Resisting the draft, his feeling of wanting to change the world, and his profound experiences with LSD and other psychedelics [1:55:30];
• The history of LSD and psilocybin, and the CIA’s interest in psychedelics [2:10:45];
• Timothy Leary and the Good Friday Experiment [2:22:00];
• Rick’s follow up study to the Good Friday Experiment, and his criticism (and praise) of Tim Leary [2:33:50];
• Peter’s experience taking psilocybin [2:44:30];
• The Concord Prison Experiment, and Rick’s follow up study 34 years later [2:47:00]; and
• More.

Learn more: https://peterattiamd.com/ Show notes page for this episode: https://peterattiamd.com/rickdoblin/ Subscribe to receive exclusive subscriber-only content: https://peterattiamd.com/subscribe/ Sign up to receive Peter's email newsletter: https://peterattiamd.com/newsletter/ Connect with Peter on Facebook | Twitter | Instagram.