Best Investigating The Post Office Scandal Podcasts (2024)

1
Mr Bates v Post Office part 5 - prosecuting the innocent 42:33

2h ago42:33

42:33

A massive power imbalance, everyone doing the narrowest version of their jobs, and an overriding culture that assumed postmasters were thieves. These are just some of the ways Post Office ended up prosecuting postmasters for shortfalls that existed only on the computer. Opening grab from Mr Beer KC (Counsel Assisting) and Rob Wilson, former Head of…

1
The Hon John Hill, on being a Minister 1:02:53

21d ago1:02:53

1:02:53

In this episode, former state Minister for Health and the Arts (among others) the Hon John Hill, shares his insights into what Ministers want - and what they need - from the public service. You can buy his book ‘On being a Minister’ here - and if you’re brave, share with your Minister! Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... Those o…

1
Andrew Podger AO: Is Thodey public sector reform on Steroids or Valium? 1:00:38

23d ago1:00:38

1:00:38

In this second interview with former Commonwealth Secretary and Australian Public Service Commissioner Andrew Podger AO, Danielle gets to chat about The pros and cons of bringing all service delivery together in a single agency The valuing of operational expertise v policy leadership The role of portfolio budget practices in driving Robodebt Cultur…

1
Andrew Podger AO: the induction, tenure and bravery of Secretaries 1:00:02

1M ago1:00:02

1:00:02

With a decade as a Commonwealth Secretary, and two more as Australian Public Service Commissioner, it is no surprise Robodebt Royal Commissioner Holmes turned to Andrew Podger AO for expert advice on the operation of the public service. In this episode, Danielle talks to Andrew about the impact that granting tenure could have on the quality of advi…

1
The Essendon Footy Club supplements scandal (part 3): regulation in a changing world 36:52

2M ago36:52

36:52

What does the community want more - every last transgressor to be punished, or government to keep out of their business? How can regulators keep pace with changing community expectations about what is ‘appropriate’ - and, indeed, what is a workplace? What is a regulator to do when you’re facing these issues in the full glare of media scrutiny? In t…

1
The Essendon Footy Club supplements scandal (part 2): what’s it like to investigate Australia’s biggest sports codes? 40:59

3M ago40:59

40:59

In episode two of this mini-series, we pick up the story of the Essendon supplements scandal from the perspective of the investigators. In this story we hear how ASADA ends up in the middle of a media fire storm, with inadequate regulatory powers and biopharmaceutical technology racing ahead. But is it really a matter for ASADA at all? Is this an a…

1
The Royal Commission we should have? The 2013 Essendon Football Club supplements scandal 34:00

3M ago34:00

34:00

“Lack of good governance is why good people did bad things at Essendon Football Club”. So says Lindsay Tanner, former Minister for Finance, and President of the Essendon Football Club from 2015. In this mini-series, Caroline tries to convince us there are lessons for public servants from the Essendon Football Club supplement scandal in 2013. In thi…

1
Sue Vardon AO, inaugural CE of Centrelink: On learning while in the job 37:40

3M ago37:40

37:40

In the second of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon dives deep on her commitment to training Centrelink staff, including the establishment of an in-house Registered Training Organisation (RTO). Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... Those of us in the employ of the State Government speak in a strictly pe…

1
Sue Vardon AO, inaugural CE of Centrelink: On lawyers 27:08

4M ago27:08

27:08

In the first of two follow ups to her interview at the end of 2023, Sue Vardon returns to share her thoughts on the dangers for Senior Executives who outsource considerations of legality to the lawyers. Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers.... Those of us in the employ of the State Government speak in a strictly personal capacity, co…

1
'Do it now, get it right later': payment (in)accuracy in Centrelink - setting the stage for Robodebt 31:20

4M ago31:20

31:20

Centrelink is not alone in having a push and pull between the investment required to get it right up front, versus the convenience of fixing things up later. We discuss the old chestnut 'fast, cheap, good - pick two' , and the less obvious costs of running lean - whether in pandemic preparedness, strategic policy capacity, workforce burnout. Finall…

1
Mr Bates v Post Office part 4 - the roll out of Horizon 33:05

5M ago33:05

33:05

If you knew your IT system was unreliable, wouldn't you keep some manual checks to make sure it doesn't go wrong? Not if you're Post Office, and desperately looking for savings. Especially if you've just lost your biggest revenue source, in the form of the Benefits Agency and the cash in the tills it provides. In the final episode of our first (but…

1
Mr Bates v Post Office part 3 - accepting a lemon 28:14

5M ago28:14

28:14

Despite hundreds of technical issues and continuing delays in meeting quality requirements, in January 2000, Post Office Board accepted the Horizon IT system as its own. In this episode, we discuss how hard it is to say 'stop' in the middle of a game of whack-a-mole of problem fixing, especially when there are institutional incentives to keep going…

1
Mr Bates v Post Office part 2 - a very poor procurement 31:55

6M ago31:55

31:55

Why was the Post Office's Horizon IT system so error ridden in the first place? And is the false conviction of nearly 1000 postmasters really Tony Blair's fault in the end? (Spoiler alert: probably not.) In this episode, Caroline takes us through why Horizon was probably doomed from the start, with Post Office and the Benefits Agency shackled toget…

1
Mr Bates v Post Office - shades of Robodebt? 38:19

6M ago38:19

38:19

Season 2 kicks off with a deeper look at the British Post Office fiasco. Gaslighting critics, false confessions, aggressive litigation tactics, challenges with redress, and no accountability from senior leaders - sound familiar? Nick Wallis BBC4 podcast The Great Post Office Trial Alison's recommended listening re psychological safety, Adam Grant's…

1
Bonus episode: Sue Vardon AO - inaugural CE of Centrelink (1997-2004) 1:31:59

7M ago1:31:59

1:31:59

In this special holiday bonus, inaugural CE of Centrelink Sue Vardon AO joins Danielle and Caroline to talk through her submission to the Robodebt Royal Commission. Her submission outlines the changes in Centrelink that made Robodebt possible - as well as the things that have stayed the same. She also takes us through her career, from being the onl…

1
35: Ep35 - Paul Scully MP, former Post Office minister 49:37

7M ago49:37

49:37

In which Nick interviews the former Post Office minister about his experience of taking office in the weeks after the Bates v Post Office settlement, overseeing the establishment of the Post Office Horizon Inquiry and the various compensation schemes.By Investigating the Post Office Scandal

1
34: Ep 34 - Where Did All The Money Go? 1:19:17

7M ago1:19:17

1:19:17

In which Nick is joined by Mark Baker, former Postmaster and CWU rep, and Ron Warmington, forensic accountant, fraud investigator and Chairman of Second Sight, which conducted the first independent investigation of the Post Office's Horizon system.By Investigating the Post Office Scandal

1
16. Taking responsibility - lessons from Robodebt 47:37

8M ago47:37

47:37

Much of the evidence heard by the Royal Commission was from people who didn't know what was happening - either because they were too junior to have all the information, or, if they were senior, too busy to have stopped and asked the question. Provoked by Dr Darren O'Donovan, in this episode we unpack practical steps that create organisations that c…

1
Bonus Episode: Dr Darren O'Donovon on centering the victims of Robodebt, the fragmentation of knowledge and accountability, and the creation of moral discomfort 1:51:49

8M ago1:51:49

1:51:49

In this in-depth and wide-ranging interview, Dr Darren O'Donovan, Senior Lecturer at La Trobe University Law School, reflects on what it was like being on the outside looking in at Robodebt. *This was recorded before the release of the Government's response to the Royal Commission.* Some references from the interview include: Frank Kafka Before the…

1
15. Behavioural insights in Robodebt: at last, an argument! 26:37

9M ago26:37

26:37

In this episode, Danielle and Alison bring the conflict on their views of behavioural insights. Danielle thinks it's a revelation that government started thinking about its customers and what works for them. Alison thinks it's oversold, and not always deployed in the interests of the people. Caroline wonders if we can all just get along. Ultimately…

1
33: Ep 33 - The Stamp of Innocence 42:51

9M ago42:51

42:51

Nick and Rebecca interview Noel Thomas and Aled Gwyn Jôb, who with Sian Thomas have co-written a book about Noel's experience of being prosecuted by the Post Office for theft and false accounting. The book is called The Stamp of Innocence. It has just been published and currently only available as an e-book from Amazon, but there are plans to make …

1
14. The Grinch that stole Christmas 36:37

10M ago36:37

36:37

Christmas leave plays an outsize role in Robodebt. Danielle takes us through some of the questions raised about Christmas leave, including who holds the can when people are on leave, and how 'hovering' while you're on leave can confuse and disempower. She also makes a case that government should never, ever shut down over Christmas, because our wor…

1
13. Pink Batts and Robodebt - lessons not learned 29:18

10M ago29:18

29:18

In September 2014, at the very moment DHS invents Robodebt, the APS receives a frank assessment of its limitations in the form of the Final Report Home Insulation Program Royal Commission. In this episode, a review of the 'pink batts' Royal Commission report shows the key failings that recur. Why is it so hard as a public servant to say 'we can't d…

1
12. Robodebt as algorithm (part 3) - Jurassic Park ICT and AI 31:02

11M ago31:02

31:02

In our final episode on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt, we tackle the implications of algorithms being commercial in confidence property of third party providers, legacy ICT systems, plus recognise we need to lean in to understanding AI and how it works. We do a second mini-dive into the Great British Post Office scandal - this time into the sy…

1
11. Robodebt as algorithm (part 2) - random number generator decision-making 30:54

11M ago30:54

30:54

How will automation impact the ability of people to seek review of administrative decisions by government agencies? In this episode, we talk about the human bias toward thinking computers are right, and take a brief digression into another public service scandal - The Great Post Office Trial - where discrepancies on a computer screen were used as p…

1
10. Robodebt as algorithm (part 1) - junk data and Swiss cheese 30:24

12M ago30:24

30:24

The first of a number of episodes on the algorithmic nature of Robodebt. This episode focuses on big data in government - what we know about it, the ways in which data can be hard to use, and the supreme importance of context. Danielle talks about disappearing from a government system, and Alison gives an important life hack to all double-barrelled…

1
9. Why is it hard to hear whistleblowers? The lessons from Robodebt 29:15

12M ago29:15

29:15

Why can it be hard to hear whistleblowers in big organisations? Caroline takes us through Kathryn Campbell's response to whistleblowers that come in via the media and come in via the union, and thinks there's something in that. Alison thinks it's a failure of change management - but is stuck on finding words to describe that aren't "waffle cloud". …

1
32: Ep 32 - Making Inquiries with David Enright 53:42

1y ago53:42

53:42

Rebecca and I were delighted to record an episode with Howe and Co partner David Enright, a lawyer who represents more than 100 Subpostmasters at the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry. This is a proper wide-ranging chat covering Sir Wyn Williams compensation report, the Post Office disclosure debacle, bonusgate, restorative justice, whether ALL Post O…

1
Bonus Episode: The Robodebt Report is out - early thoughts and reflections 36:12

1y ago36:12

36:12

In this special episode, Caroline and Danielle unpack their feelings about the Royal Commission Report, five days after its release. We also pick through some of the Commissioner's key findings, as they relate to things discussed in previous episodes. If you are new to the podcast, we suggest you start at the beginning and come to this after you've…

1
4. Culture on the frontlines - Centrelink and Robodebt 26:54

1y ago26:54

26:54

In the second episode of two episodes exploring the culture in DHS and how it contributed to Robodebt, Danielle takes us through the pressures being experienced on the frontline in Centrelink. From the rise of employee engagement surveys, the use of temporary labour hire, to the decline of unions, this episode explores the importance (and challenge…

1
5. How not to stop something - DSS, the Columbia effect, and the first missed opportunity to stop Robodebt 25:16

1y ago25:16

25:16

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the tick-tock of how, in late January and early February 2015, DSS went from having legal advice that said Robodebt was unlawful, to waving it through the Budget process. We discuss how something that is 'not consistent with legislation' is actually 'illegal', and the impacts of softening language on the b…

1
6. When you discover you've been had - DSS, faux collegiality and the second missed opportunity to stop Robodebt 23:11

1y ago23:11

23:11

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the reaction of DSS in early 2017, when it becomes clear DHS hadn't abided by the agreement they thought they had to kill Robodebt. However, far from handing DHS over to the Ombudsman, DSS engage in a process that looks like ‘a conspiracy to conceal stuff up’, in the inimitable words of Commissioner Holmes…

1
7. 'A bit of a fixer-upper' - DHS and the botched launch of Robodebt 27:21

1y ago27:21

27:21

In this episode, Caroline takes us through how DHS responds in early 2017 when things start hitting the fan. Aggressive defence is the name of game in the media, while in the background frantic efforts are made to improve 'the customer interface'. We talk about how DHS backed themselves into a corner, and despite a lot of senior attention to solve …

1
8. Advice is just advice - what the lawyers knew about Robodebt 29:27

1y ago29:27

29:27

In this episode, Caroline takes us through the many different ways in which lawyers in the Commonwealth Government knew that Robodebt was illegal well before the Federal Court settlement in late 2019. You might not remember who wrote the constitutional law text book, but you would remember going to a conference where an eminent KC dismantles your p…

1
1. What is Robodebt? An explainer 26:20

1y ago26:20

26:20

An explainer episode on what Robodebt is, how it unfolded, and why public servants should be interested in finding out more. Far from a political conspiracy, the Robodebt Royal Commission has shown that it was a creature of the public service. Join Alison, Danielle and Caroline, as they reflect on the lessons of Robodebt through the lens of their p…

1
2. Bright Ideas - the origin of Robodebt 28:18

1y ago28:18

28:18

Where did Robodebt come from? In this episode, we track the genesis of Robodebt in the heart of the compliance division in the Department of Human Services in late 2014. This is a cautionary tale about a bright idea that gets fast tracked by senior leadership, who have their own reasons for taking it forward, and aren't very interested in whether w…

1
3. Culture from the top - DHS and Robodebt 26:55

1y ago26:55

26:55

The first of two episodes looking at the role the culture of DHS played in enabling Robodebt to get off the ground, and keep moving, in spite of all the red flags. In this episode, Danielle talks us through the ways in which Secretary Kathryn Campbell and her leadership team set the tone, and the efforts of later leaders like Renee Leon to fix the …

1
31: Ep 31 - Yet Another Compensation Hearing 1:24:48

1y ago1:24:48

1:24:48

As both Nick and Rebecca were unable to attend the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry Compensation Hearing on 27 April, they thought it best to speak to some people who were. Sadly Rebecca was also unable to co-host the podcast so Nick brought in Professor Richard Moorhead from Exeter University (and member of the Horizon Compensation Advisory Board), …

1
30: Ep 30 - Post Office Minister on launch of GLO scheme 27:36

1+ y ago27:36

27:36

In which the Post Office Minister Kevin Hollinrake explains the new compensation scheme for Postmasters who were part of the High Court group litigation, declares the Historical Shortfall Scheme fit for purpose, says he wants people held to account over the Horizon scandal and appears ready to support a Duty of Candour law if it prevents something …

1
29: Ep 29 - So That Was The End of Part 2 of Phase 3 of the Post Office Horizon IT Inquiry 44:41

1+ y ago44:41

44:41

In which Nick, Rebecca and special guest Varchas Patel pick over the recent evidence to the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry. One Fujitsu witness who worked on the Horizon Helpdesk described hearing colleagues shout about having 'another Patel scamming' on the phone again. We also discuss Nick and Varchas' experience of being trustees on the Horizon …

1
28: Ep 28 - A bit of Neidle 1:01:53

1+ y ago1:01:53

1:01:53

In which Nick interviews Nadhim Zahawi's nemesis, Dan Neidle, founder of Tax Policy Associates. Dan has recently waded into the Post Office Horizon Scandal, and is pretty sure at least one compensation scheme for victims of the scandal is unfair. Dan is a great talker and entertaining company. He talks about his career as a tax layer, The Downfall …

1
27: Ep 27 - The Sethis wait and wait and wait 49:05

1+ y ago49:05

49:05

In 2002, Baljit and Anjana Sethi (pictured), were trusted Subpostmasters in Essex. They were was sacked by the Post Office over a £17,000 discrepancy in one of their branches' accounts. The Sethis had successfully run a Post Office branch for more than 20 years. Baljit told the Brentwood Gazette at the time it was not their fault, rather it was dow…

1
26: Ep 26 - Alan Bates No.B.E. 29:32

1+ y ago29:32

29:32

Phase 3 of the inquiry begins with a statement on the running sore of Postmaster compensation (three schemes now running and counting) - we have news of Alan Bates, founder of the Justice for Subpostmasters' Alliance turning down an OBE - Nick has got his hands on the Altman Advice (or one of them, anyway) and oh yes - all the evidence from the inq…

1
25: Ep 25 - The Compensation Crunch 38:03

1+ y ago38:03

38:03

A day of tedious technicality and extreme misery combined to flatten any Christmas cheer around central London on Thursday 8 December. Both Nic and Rebecca attended a special compensation hearing to find out that most things are a mess and going nowhere slowly. For the Subposmasters in attendance it was a very frustrating day. The one man with the …

1
24: Ep 24 - Meet the Ministers 36:07

1+ y ago36:07

36:07

Four more former Secretaries of State gave evidence in the final week of Phase 2 of the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry as did former General Secretary of the National Federation of Subpostmasters, whose evidence was jaw-dropping. Colin Baker MBE told a Subpostmasters' barrister she shouldn't be asking what his organisation was up to whilst the Post…

1
23: Ep 23 - Byers Beware 32:35

1+ y ago32:35

32:35

Our first former Secretary of State - Stephen Byers - and the first woman - Dr Sarah Graham - give evidence to Phase 2 of the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry. Nick and Rebecca have parsed the week's testimony to present all the newsworthy tidbits to you. We also promised lots of links - so in the order in which they are mentioned in the podcast: Reb…

1
22: Ep 22 - Dave the Destroyer 33:55

1+ y ago33:55

33:55

Dave McDonnell becomes the most important witness of the second phase of the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry so far by explaining in detail exactly how the Horizon system did not and would not work, how he told his bosses at Fujitsu and how they ignored his advice, sidelined him and rolled out a financial system into the Post Office estate, leaving …

1
21: Ep 21 - The Special Laptop! 37:17

1+ y ago37:17

37:17

This week Nick and Rebecca get under the bonnet of Fujitsu and watch various people chucking spanners around. They discover Fujitsu had a Special Horizon Laptop, that Fujitsu engineer Anne Chambers wasn't particularly happy about giving the evidence that helped bankrupt a Subpostmaster and that no one at Fujitsu cared much about Rebecca's 2009 inve…

1
20: Ep 20 - Master interview: Lord Arbuthnot 1:03:21

1+ y ago1:03:21

1:03:21

Before the summer Lord (James) Arbuthnot (or Baron Arbuthnot of Edrom to give him his full title) very kindly agreed to give up some time to talk to Rebecca and Nick about his involvement in the Post Office Horizon scandal. We finally caught up in October and have only just got round to publishing the final podcast. An hour wasn't quite long enough…

1
19: Ep 19 - Dark secrets about Horizon's birth revealed 30:00

1+ y ago30:00

30:00

Another week of evidence from the Post Office Horizon IT inquiry concludes with a burning question still unanswered. Who at the Post Office decided to start using data from an obviously unstable IT system to criminally prosecute its own subpostmasters? The underlings didn't seem to know, the senior execs didn't seem to care. Rebecca Thomson and Nic…

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Investigating The Post Office Scandal Podcasts

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