Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Bradford J. Shwedo '87 - 21st Century Conflict: Accelerate Change and Win

THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST

Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Bradford J. Shwedo ’87, uniquely suited to his calling, explains how he leverages lessons from the past to equip present-day warriors to dominate future warfare.
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SUMMARY

A leader of warriors can never over-prepare for potential battle. Lt. Gen. Shwedo, director of USAFA’s Institute for Future Conflict, draws on the distant past to teach today’s cadets how to lead tomorrow’s warriors into 21st century battles and win.

LEARN. ENGAGE. LEAD!

Read more about the IFC in the first of a three-part series, Future Focus, in December 2023 Checkpoints! (Pg. 42)

OUR FAVORITE QUOTES IN THIS EPISODE

"I saw that the Air Force figured out how to win with what you got. They would figure out a way through leadership to win with what they got."

"Leadership is all about working with people, and you've got to understand people."

"I work for you, I'm removing your impediments so you can do that, you know, kill the bad guys."

"Don't forget who you are. There were there were times when we were shoveling show. I have learned to show up when it's crappy."

"My focus had to be the Dean. And the direction comes from the national defense strategy. So we actually have a meeting a week with the futures guys. And that gives us insight."

VIDEO: BRIEF ON THE IFC TO THE ASSOCIATION OF GRADUATES AND FOUNDATION - 1-11-2024

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CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction and Background
02:24 Early Competitive Streak and Decision to Join Air Force Academy
06:16 Being Open to Opportunities and Trusting the Process
07:38 Preparation and Academic Background
09:30 The Importance of Studying History and Being Prepared
10:56 Leadership Lessons from the West Wing
12:52 The Shift to Special Access Programs and New Ways of Thinking
16:34 Leading in Cyber and Intelligence Operations
17:30 The Decision to Join the Institute for Future Conflict
19:22 Shifting the Focus of Leadership and Academics
20:50 Helping Cadets Understand the Larger System
23:13 Preparing Cadets for the Future Fight
25:43 The Rise of Third Parties in Warfare
26:37 Motivating and Understanding People as a Leader
28:52 Are Leaders Born or Made?
30:19 Lessons in Leadership: Don't Forget Who You Are
31:17 Advice for the Next Generation of Warriors and Leaders
34:07 Leadership is About Working with People
36:21 Final Thoughts and Contact Information

OUR FAVORITE TAKEAWAYS

- Leadership is about working with people and understanding what motivates them.
- Being open to opportunities and trusting the process can lead to valuable experiences and career paths.
- Studying history and being prepared can provide a strong foundation for future challenges.
- Leaders must be aware of the changing nature of warfare and the rise of third parties in conflict.

GENERAL SHWEDO'S BIO

Lt. Gen. (Ret) Bradford J. Shwedo '87 is the Director, Institute for Future Conflict. Previous to this position, he was the Director for Command, Control, Communications and Computers (C4)/Cyber, Chief Information Officer, Joint Staff, J6, the Pentagon.

Lt. Gen. Shwedo has commanded at the detachment, squadron, group, wing and numbered air force levels. During these commands, his units were engaged in direct support to Iraqi Freedom, Enduring Freedom and the greater Global War on Terror providing worldwide Intelligence, Surveillance, Reconnaissance and Cyber operations. He also led an Intelligence Team to Desert Shield/Storm. His last command was 25th Air Force at Joint Base San Antonio-Lackland, Texas, where he led 30,000 personnel in worldwide operations, delivering multisource ISR products, applications, capabilities and resources. When he was the Chief, Information Dominance and Chief Information Officer for the Office of the Secretary of the Air Force, he led four directorates that supported 77,000 personnel and cyber operations across the globe with a portfolio valued at $17 billion.

Lt. Gen. Shwedo graduated from the U.S. Air Force Academy in 1987 with a degree in Military History and was also a student athlete, lettering in football.

- Copy and image courtesy of www.USAFA.edu

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Our host is Dr. Doug Lindsay '92 | Our guest is Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Bradford J. Shwedo '87

Gen. Shwedo 00:01

I saw the Air Force figured out how to win with what you got. They would figure out a way through leadership to win with what they got. They would put us in situations where they would facilitate our positives and negate our negatives. So, when you sit there and go, “Well, you didn't give me X, Y or Z, so we lost.” No, my expectation is we'll work to get what you need. But the expectation is still you win with what you got.

Doug Lindsay 00:55

My guest today is Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Bradford J. Shwedo, USAFA Class of 1987. Gen. Shwedo leads the Air Force Academy's Institute for Future Conflict as its first director. Throughout our conversation, you'll hear us refer to the Institute as the IFC. Gen. Shwedo was named to the position in March 2021 by Academy Superintendent, Gen. Richard Clark. The IFC is preparing cadets to wage and win wars in nontraditional domains. As we progress through our conversation with Gen. Shwedo, you will quickly understand why he was chosen to lead this pioneering institution where future-think informs everything they do. The general graduated from the Academy with a bachelor's in military history while also lettering in football. His career led him into an intelligence space, beginning with an assignment at Goodfellow Air Force Base in Texas in 1989, then Germany and Saudi Arabia. He served as threat manager with the 487th Intelligence Group from 1993 to 1995. He moved to the Pentagon as offensive information warfare chief in 1995. Between 1998 and 2020, he spent time in Korea, several assignments at CIA headquarters in Virginia, at Buckley Air Force base here in Colorado, and several more assignments at the Pentagon. He served in multiple command and leadership positions, and at one point was in charge of four directorates supporting 77,000 personnel, global cyber operations and assets valued at $17 billion. He's a consummate warrior, logistician, strategist and leader. Gen. Shwedo. Welcome to Long Blue Leadership.

Gen. Shwedo 02:33

Thanks so much. The pleasure is mine. Thanks a lot for having me.

Doug Lindsay 02:36

Absolutely. Let's, let's start kind of at the beginning if we if we can. It seems like from an early age that you had a competitive streak. Can you talk a little bit behind that background and that upbringing?

Gen. Shwedo 02:48

So, I will tell you, I was very, very pleased when the Air Force came knocking. And it started with football, as you brought up. And I was recruited as a high schooler to come out here and play and I think as what you were talking about my earlier career. I think I'm very much a product of the Academy across the board. It's not just one single piece. And one of the larger ones, though, was football, and quite honestly, and we'll talk about history, because that was very much one and then different comms programs, also big influences, but coming here to play football, it was amazing to me. There were so many great athletes, I wasn't one of them. But it was amazing to me every Saturday, we would go out there and we'd look at these guys that any layman would say there's no way these guys are going to win. And I learned a lot about leadership and a lot about, you know, capabilities and competitions in Falcon stadium. And I saw in Air Force that they figured out how to win with what you got. They would figure out a way through leadership to win with what they got. They would put us in situations as individual athletes, where they would facilitate our positives and negate our negatives on that competitive streak. All that background at Falcon Stadium was priceless. I mean, I learned a lot both playing and coaching on how to do that. And once again, that reflects greatly on the people in the Department of Athletics, who every day have to do exactly what I witnessed. But what a great life lesson for when after you graduate and you're no-lie defending the country. We expect you to win with what you got.

Doug Lindsay

It's a no fail mission. Right?

Gen. Shwedo

Absolutely. Absolutely. And what a great training ground, you know, to kind of lick your wounds when you didn't get the right lesson. But on game day, I felt like we were always there. We always understood what we needed to do. And we put those people in the right places so we could win that day.

Doug Lindsay 04:49

You realized that as you went through football and as you were coaching and doing that, but before that, when the Academy did come knocking or — what was it that intrigued you about it? Obviously the opportunity to play football… What was your thought process of that whole idea of saying, “I'm gonna go out to Colorado and I'm gonna do that?” And there's that service component as well.

Gen. Shwedo 05:07

I think the one thing that really impressed me about the Air Force Academy, and they still do this: They sell you on the whole program. You know, there are some places where, and I was getting recruited from other schools, where they're just focusing on the football, or whatever. And what I loved about the Air Force Academy was they sold you the whole package. And quite honestly, I encourage cadets when I meet with them to think of this place as a buffet. Because there's lots of things you don't know the Air Force does that is really, really cool. And my biggest problem was, I wanted to do everything. I mean, I wanted to be a pilot, I wanted to be an astronaut. I wanted to be a combat controller, I wanted to be an intelligence officer — I thought all of those things were really cool. And when I tell the cadets, look, “I know what you want to do right now. But think of this place as a buffet, you don't just sit down and eat one sample of those things. And you rapidly find out there's lots of different things that you may want to do.” And that's kind of the way I've been through my career is, you know, wow, that's really cool. Or that I'd like to do that. And [I’ve] been very lucky to be able to pounce on a lot of those opportunities.

Doug Lindsay 06:15

Being open to the process and kind of trusting the process, that there’s something here that we’re going to, we’re looking out for you. I always thought that was kind of nice in my 22 years that there was always someone there looking out for me, protecting me from myself, so to speak, of, “Hey, you need to go here at this time. And you need to do that.” Even though it wasn't quite the vector I wanted to go, it was still probably the best one at the right time.

Gen. Shwedo 06:38

It is things you do for the team that doesn't always, you know, align with what you want to do. But in the long run was absolutely the right call.

Doug Lindsay 06:47

Right. And you mentioned the team, right. That’s something I think that I learned as well, kind of going through this, it felt very much — when I would fail a GR test, it was very much me. But it was always kind of in the context of something larger about the about the team. And that's where that always felt like I was going through it alone. But I really wasn't because there were all these other people around me. No, you're exactly right. What else really resonated that set you up for success when you got on the Academy?

Gen. Shwedo 07:12

You know, on the academic side, I felt well prepared for what I was about to jump into. And, you know, military history for me was exactly what I wanted to do. There's an old Bismarck quote that says, “Only fools learn from their mistakes, wise men, you know, learn from other people's mistakes.” And that's kind of what dragged me to military history, because I was like, you know, there's a lot of life lessons there. And, you know, it was reading that I really enjoyed. Also, within the academics, you know, a long, long time ago, we studied about the Soviet Union, and World War III, and all of those things. And as you said, I went to intel school in ’89. But I rapidly found myself in 1990, in Desert Shield, and all of those things that I had studied — because the Iraqis used a lot of the Soviet organize, train and equip structures — I knew what they were doing before. So, I had studied here. So, I felt really well prepared by the time Desert Storm started. And then that started kicking me off, you know, in the right direction,

Doug Lindsay 08:24

I always felt a little unsettled at the Academy, because it was always pulling me to do different things, not just be stuck in my lane, but learn that there are other lanes out there and that I can actually be in that lane and be OK, you know, whether it's academics or military or athletics. And I think there's something to that idea of not just letting people be a little unbalanced, and being comfortable with that in terms of being able to figure out where they need to be or what they need to do. Does that fit in with what you're talking about?

Gen. Shwedo 08:53

You're exactly right. And you know, everybody jokes about the GRs and the quizzes and knowing where you're going to take a hit here and you're gonna focus on that, as I talked about siri, that was not comfortable, but you kind of sucked it up. But first of all, you know, dealing with cadets in this job is the most humbling experience in my life. They're so much smarter than I ever was. And, you know, it's really humbling, and it's an honor to do that. But they fire, you know, evil questions back at you. And it's actually really fun to answer those questions. So, a lot of them will go, you know, “I'm learning all this stuff that's not applicable and blah, blah, blah.” And they'll ask me questions. So, when I was doing cyber, on the joint staff, we have these things called committee meetings and principal committee meetings. And those are either chaired by — the principal is chaired by the president or National Security Council and when you walk in, they are underwhelming conference rooms in the West Wing of the White House, I can assure you, and at a principals committee meeting you have a secretary of defense, the secretary of state, secretary of treasury, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and sometimes when it would come to cyber, or frequencies that you know different election security. They go, “BJ, you take the meeting.” So, I would go and you know, the first time I walked on the West Wing of the White House, it was a significant emotional event. But back to the cadets, I have told them a hundred times, you know, when you go in there, first of all, you better be prepared, you better do all the studies. So, all of these things that we do to cram is not a bad thing. But the next piece is, I've told them numerous times, some of the things that I learned in Colorado Springs carry the day in West Wing discussions, because I remember studying those things, and, “Well, you're forgetting this portion of their history, or you're forgetting this piece.” And often, I'm sure you had it when you were running around, cadets are like, “Oh, when will I ever use this?”

Doug Lindsay 10:54

Surprisingly, actually, you will.

Gen. Shwedo 10:55

I'm embarrassed to tell you, yes, you will.

Doug Lindsay 10:59

Well, so thinking about that idea of being in the West Wing and being there and being tapped to say, hey, you're the guy, you're successful at that point at the highest levels. But at some point, there's that idea that you're the person, right, you're the one that's got to be able to speak and articulate in that way. What was that like the first time that kind of went through that?

Gen. Shwedo 11:18

It's very humbling, you know. First of all, you look down at [your] stars, you’re like, where the hell did these come from? Because, because you do still feel like you’re a cadet, you know, 24/7. And, honestly, when you walk into these rooms, you know the seriousness of the situation. By that time, you know most of the people around the table, and, you know, you’re prepared. They will give you three-ring binders. And I tell the cadets this, I'm like, look, you know, the world is not — and we've had cadets come and they go, you know, “What's all this Hamas, and, you know, Israeli thing?” because our squadron’s kind of split. And I go, guys, I go, “I know you're in an academic situation. So, you think things are either right or wrong. But the world is gray.” Talking to the cadets, oh, we went through the history of, you know, the Middle East and all that. And they're kind of drooling, because it's been 20 minutes, and I go, “By the way, that three-ring binder, that's the first tab. And if you haven't read everything in that binder, you're gonna get mauled in this situation.” And I go, you know, the next piece is, and we went back and forth where there wasn't, you know, there were so many grays associated with it, and I go, “Now, when you get up from that conference table, you're gonna walk out, and there will be people waiting to talk about the border, the Ukraine, or they're…,” you know, and it has a conga line of problems that that they deal with every day. And I go, “Oh, by the way, you better be well versed on all of those too.” And, you know, when they see that, it is that transition to, from an academic situation where it's right and wrong, to what we're going to dump them into the grays. And I think they do see, that's where some of these applicable situations that they had in Colorado Springs may come back. Once again, is it a GR quiz, OK, well, a quiz is gonna die, all right there. And I'm not too proud to tell you that speed reading is a good thing. And they will drive you from the river entrance at the Pentagon and drop you off in front of the White House. And by the way, soon as you get back from the White House, there's another meeting waiting for you on another thing that you better be prepared for. So this whole thing, there's a method, I think, to the Academy's madness, throwing all this stuff at you.

Doug Lindsay 13:39

So, you kind of come out as a military history major. So really more, here's what was done to here's what's going on to here's kind of what it looks like in the future. What do you think it was that appealed to you?

Gen. Shwedo 13:55

I was very lucky. And, you know, came out of Desert Storm, and I knew I was too dumb to get a master’s on my own. So, they sent me to the Defense Intelligence Agency, and I started seeing some of the new stuff and some of the things that were in the intelligence community. So that job in the 487 Intelligence Group, I was working new bombs, missiles and PGMs. And then they go, there's this new thing, and it's going to be a Special Access Program. You're gonna get into all of those things. And I think what led me to that was I could pass a polygraph. I mean, I grew up in this little town in North Carolina. And you know, the first time I took a polygraph, they said, “Have you done drugs?” No. “Have you done drugs?” No. The guy goes, “Have you done drugs?” No. And he turns off the machine and says, “You've never done drugs.” That's because I'm from Reedsville. We'll get drugs in about 20 or 30 years. But all kidding aside that started getting me down to all the Special Access Programs and every one of them was cooler and cooler and cooler and I had a blast when I worked special programs during 9/11. And when President Bush said, “This is going to be unlike any war you've seen before. A lot of it is going to be in the shadows.” And you won't see what was being done. That's kind of where I was. And what was wonderful because there weren't very many people with those clearances. So, I would usually go straight into the chairman's office and say, “This just came in from the White House, we need to do X, Y or Z.” And he would do that. So then fast forward, we weren't talking about cyber, we just didn't talk about it. I was at the CIA. And they said, “Congratulations, you're going to be a group commander, you're going to transition an intel group into the first attack squadrons for the Air Force.” So that's how I did that. And then I stuck around to be the wing commander. But you know, that realm is just, like you said, lots of excitement, lots of new ways of thinking and doing things. So, I was very, very excited to be able to jump into that at an early age — captain. Really, I will tell you, our airmen are amazing, amazing. And when you start pitching them into a fight that they really appreciate. And sometimes, especially in cyber, when you change a one to a zero, they, the overall group doesn't know what's going on. So, I usually would charge our junior guys to do the math down range. And say, “By the way, when you turn that one to a zero, bad guy X, who wanted to blow himself up in the Mall of America is no longer with us.” And then all of a sudden, everybody walks around with a big bow chest, and they're very proud of what they do. And then it's just starts snowballing. And everybody's doing better and better things. And I tell a story often but, you know, I walked in at 3 o'clock in the morning and there was all kinds of math on … the board, and I go, what's up with all the math and he goes, “Oh, Airman so-and-so figured out how long we go to jail if we did this on the outside.” Now, of course, everybody's kidding. But I'd be you know, those are those airmen that that are just rockstars, and you're so proud to be around them. And just like I was telling you about football, I wasn't the athlete, we had a bunch of rockstars I ran around with. And it was just a lot of fun to be a part of that organization.

Doug Lindsay 17:27

You're like, tailor made for your role right now. It seems like everything kind of fit into your ability and where you're at right now to be at the IFC. So, when, you know, the folks approach you, Kaminsky and Fox, and those folks approached you, what was it about this one that really made you say, “Yeah, that's where I want to go?”

Gen. Shwedo 17:49

So, I will tell you, you know, relationships matter. And you know, we have brothers and sisters across, you know, this place. So, and you know, when you call somebody a brother or sister, you may not mean it. Most of the people I run around with really do mean it. So, I got a phone call from Gen. Clark, who was a teammate of mine. And he was also in seventh squadron with me. So, we've known each other for very long time. I was still on active duty. And he goes, “Hey, brother, I need a favor.” And I'm like, “Sure, brother, whatever you need.” Don't answer the phone like that. Doesn't work well. But all kidding aside, he, you know, he said, because he and I have known each other he goes exactly what you said, “Hey, I'm looking at all the things you did, and what they want to do. This makes all the sense in the world.” And, you know, really, the major reason I came was a brother asked me to do something, and I’d do anything for him.

Doug Lindsay 18:50

But what the IFC is doing is it's changing our mental model, right? It's out of those traditional ways. We think about academics, how we prepare leaders, we're taking a little bit of different approach there. So, what's that been like helping the Academy transition to that new mindset?

Gen. Shwedo 19:08

My focus had to be the dean. And the direction comes from the national defense strategy. So, we actually have a meeting a week with the future guys. And that gives us insight. But then going back and figuring out what we're going to put into the curriculum. We did a curriculum review as soon as we got here. And I was joking, and I said, “OK, everybody knows Word products. We’re going to do a universal insert, delete, every time you see ISIS and Al Qaeda, they’ll say Russia and China.” But all kidding aside, that was kind of where we started rooting out some of the problems as we did. If I’d had a dean that didn't agree or believe, we'd be done a long time ago, but she's been wonderful. Gen. Clark has been awesome, you know, facilitating all of this. And because we can go classified or do anything else, it really starts, as you said, shifting the focus. And saying there is a reason why the Air Force Academy is different than an ROTC unit or a regular, you know, OTs or whatever, we're going to ingrain that across the board. This is basically teaching them, “You're a part of a much bigger, you know, orchestration. And, boy, it's a different way of thinking, but definitely gives you insight into how to do different things, you know, thinking two or three layers above when you're just in a cockpit.” “I don't understand why I'm doing this.” But two or three layers above, “I totally get it. Now I understand it.”

Doug Lindsay 20:41

Well, and helping people see that connectedness to the larger system, right? So, it not it may seem like I'm an independent person doing this, right. But as part of that larger system and…

Gen. Shwedo 20:49

I still want you to independently be padlocked on that target and do all of that. But as opposed to grumbling, “I don't understand why I'm doing this,” or the urgency of me … doing this from the way that they're telling me…,” it totally makes larger sense, as opposed to shut up and do it. We're Americans, we challenge everything. And honestly, I think that's what gives us the advantage over China or something else. We question everything. That's not necessarily bad.

Doug Lindsay 21:18

Yeah, that's right. Within context, right? That's right. So, what's it like from a leadership standpoint? Obviously, at the highest levels, this one's a little bit different, maybe some more influence? Sure, more of those dotted lines and things? What's it been like to lead that organization through, from the beginning to where it is now, from the big idea to a concept?

Gen. Shwedo 21:40

I really am not looking to take credit for anything. So, whenever a future conflict thing comes off, we may have pulled lots of strings, but whoever's carrying it out or is involved, we try to push it, and we'll look at what they did, because that makes the better team and, you know, sometimes I wince a little bit when they go, “Well, the IFC did this.” Well, actually, a lot of people did. And when people go, “Well, you know, who is in the IFC? Who’s studying under the IFC?” Well, as I said, all three mission areas. Well, when did the IFC does well, I mentioned Firstie Flag. Well, actually, that's not mine, that's the Commandant's. We've helped out. But it's common. It's an outstanding job. And I would never say, “Look at what the IFC did.” But when you look at all of these different things, where we'll bring speakers in somebody else, or will fund, you know, some conference, you know, the donors may say, “Hey, BJ, what are you doing, you know, with this money?” I can show them that it absolutely forwarded the future fight. It's giving the cadets great insight on that future fight. But somebody else may walk in and go, “But that was my conference.” And I will say you're exactly right. And we are very proud.

Doug Lindsay 22:57

Obviously, we're sending out people who are competent in certain domains as an academic institution as well. But from a leadership standpoint, where are you seeing the value of the efforts of what IFC and the larger team is doing on helping cadets understand their leadership and their role in leading that effort moving forward?

Gen. Shwedo 23:16

There’s several things with that. So, the first piece is making them aware of the threat. And you know, the dean has introduced me and said, “This is BJ. Gen. Shwedo, he's making evil minds.” And I'm here to tell you that the evil minds already exist. What we gotta do is make them aware of the environment we're dumping them in. And a case in point, I have one cadet, he raises his hands like, “You know, hypersonic missiles. I don't understand what's the big deal about that.” And I go,” OK, well, first of all, yes, they're fast. But as you remember from Physics 110 a ballistic missile trajectory is all mathematics. That's how the Patriot works. Hypersonic missiles can maneuver. So, all your math is now dead.” And I go, “Oh, by the way, when you look down-range and you see all those antennas, NORAD, for the most part was looking up to the north, because the quickest way to get an ICBM to the United States was over the top. You can actually take a hypersonic missile, put it in a low earth orbit, and that attack will come out of Antarctica.” Same cadet immediately raises his hand and goes, “So the maneuvering — is that RF, command guide?” And he's immediately trying to get into it. And I'm like, I love you, man. Because, honestly, when you start making them aware of the threats, they immediately start thinking countermeasures. So, from the leadership standpoint, they understand that piece, another thing we're teaching them is, and it's a snarky way of saying it, but forget cylinders of excellence — and cylinders of excellence during the global war on terrorism. We could show up in one cylinder of excellence like I told you about the Predator, the Reaper, fire that missile, declare victory and go home. If we're going to fight a great power competition or whatever, we are going to be in that situation where we need air, land, sea, space, cyber all showing up. So, break down the cylinders. And then the last part of this great power competition: We need to keep it at competition and not get to conflict. For the most part, we've been stuck at bombs, bullets and beans in the spectrum of conflict. This is competition down here. This is conflict over here. And what we're teaching the cadets is no, you got to participate across the board. And it may be heavy, more in cyber or information operations. But you're going to use those tools all the way across the spectrum. But I really don't think our citizenry is ready for great power conflict. They're so used to us running up the score to a hundred to nothing that they don't understand what that is. And the Russians and Chinese on the competition scale, had been running unopposed because we have been padlocked on ISIS and Al Qaeda. So, we're resetting their awareness. So, when they are future leaders, they make those impacts on the lower level. So, we just like I told you at the beginning, we never got to World War III.

Doug Lindsay 26:14

A lot of impact in a short amount of time. What are you hearing, even anecdotally from them about that experience and that mindset and that ability to play at that level?

Gen. Shwedo 26:23

A kid that walks up to me goes, “Sir, I had no idea my country does this, but I want to do it really badly.” You energize that excitement, and then they come back and start telling all of these friends, I mean, you know, when I came here, I knew we were doing cool stuff, but being able to come back and see all of those things. Boy, that makes me want to study more that makes me want to get even better at whatever that buffet, right, that I want to do, it is — and it's just one more thing that energizes me to make sure that I get it right.

Doug Lindsay 26:56

When you put energized, passionate, excited cadets together, and you start talking about the ability to solve complex problems and have an influence…

Gen. Shwedo 27:05

So, I used to call them evil bar-napkins. They come up with, you know, these great ideas. And it is humbling, because they, you know, they grew up a different way than I did. That's probably a lot more applicable to that future fight. And that is why so many people come to these guys. And that's why our research department gets so much money, because they want to drag these guys in. I think we have more opportunities than we have cadets for research. Because they're so in demand, people understand how smart they are.

Doug Lindsay 27:38

If Gen. Shwedo was Cadet Shwedo going through the Academy right now, knowing what you know in terms of your trajectory and what you've learned over your time, and then knowing the opportunities that exist in the IFC, what would you tell yourself to think about as you're going through this process, if you got off the bus this summer to start all over?

Gen. Shwedo 27:59

I would look up and say, “You're very lucky. It's going to, they're going to be times it’s just going to suck. You better be ready for that. But I will tell you it's worth the fight.” You know, I've seen and done very, very cool things that people will not know about for a very long time. And then the last part is because I just got off the bus and my head shaved, and I'm pissed off at everybody, “Suck it up. It's, it's worth the price of admission. But when you get out, honestly, all of this training all of this, you know, experiences preps you for those future opportunities.”

Doug Lindsay 28:35

So, Gen. Shwedo, as a student of military history, and a teacher of leadership, and there's a question that we often like to ask just based on people's experience, are, in your opinion, are leaders born or are they made?

Gen. Shwedo 28:47

You know, it's funny, I often get the question, you know, “Hey, is there a book that you really advocate for leadership?” And I just kind of smile and go, “Look, leadership,” just like I was telling you with the coaching and all that other stuff, “leadership is all about working with people. And you've got to understand people. And it's a little more work than that.” Just like you said, I need to find the positives, I need to see what you as a person excites you, what motivates you. And then when I was telling you facilitate the positives and negate the negatives, and I believe, … people are born with the capability to get to know you a lot better, but it does come back to motivating you and finding where I can put you in that situation, that you're going to excel just like we were talking about earlier, and then keep you out of those situations where you may not perform. That is kind of the one-on-one leadership. Well, it's more of a pyramid organization by design. So, you find leaders that also go along those lines and then when I have a problem, I go down that pyramid along those lines. But I think it's, it would be pretty sad if you're either a leader or not. I do believe that if you're not very good at figuring out people, etc, you can eventually learn that. But it is easier for some than others. That's kind of it. Leadership is definitely motivating people and understanding what motivates [them]. You know, Patton used to say, “I don't measure the merits of my company commanders by the calluses on their ass.” And what you are saying is, “Get out.” And you do need to get out there and you know, motivate, understand, talk to the folks and for, you know, here and everywhere else, because our airmen are so amazing. It's actually one of the best parts of the day. And some of these guys are just denying them that opportunity.

Doug Lindsay 30:53

And within the context of warfare, obviously, you've mentioned this earlier, that we've seen the world change and conflict in the 21st century doesn't take place in what we think in traditional areas, like the battlefield. So, what advice would you like to offer the generation coming up behind you and us that, who want to be warriors, that maybe want to join the Long Blue Line and, and want to become leaders for the…?

Gen. Shwedo 31:17

…Future fight? I will tell you, you know, fundamentally, as I said before, it's a lot different than global war on terrorism, and you know, some of these other pieces, but what I'm seeing, especially with technologies, is the rise of the third parties. So, when it comes to cyber, we've watched the Ukraine, where these third-party cyber gangs, are now playing. And you know, when you look at the Russian cyber capability, where the Russian government stops, and the Russian mafia begins, is not a real good, fine line. And we're seeing some of these guys pitch into the fights. When I'm talking to the cadets. I'm like, “You can ignore this, but you'll do it at your own peril.” And more disconcerting, a lot of these well-intentioned people that may think that they're helping the fight, there was one report where they had gotten into the space systems of the Russians. And they had the ability to turn off the satellites. Well, in a nuclear scenario in first strike, making your adversary blind before you do that is a precursor. And sometimes countries don't want their missiles stuck in holes. So, when they start seeing all of those warnings go, they launch in the other direction. So, these well-intentioned people could cook off a much larger campaign. So, I tell the cadets that you cannot ignore these capabilities. Another one is drones. I mean, Richard Clark, who was the previous SOCOM commander, quite rightly pointed out that a bomb has not fallen on U.S. troops since 1953. These drones that we're seeing, and, you know, they are blowing up tanks, they have pushed the Black Sea Fleet out of port. You know, we've seen all of this. And fundamentally, you're going, “Okay, how do we counter that?” And can we promise that a bomb will not fall on there with F-22s and F-35s. Back to those evil minds, they start looking on those countermeasures, but we're dumping them fundamentally in a much different environment than what their teachers fought in the global war on terrorism. So, we've got to equip them with all of those capabilities. And then the last part were those drone drivers. And the cyber folks. They may not look like a battle dress uniform, they may look, you know, like somebody, and oh, by the way, they probably can't run, you know, the 2-mile run or anything like that. But they're still effective on the battlefield. And you need to understand that when we go forward.

Doug Lindsay 33:52

You’ve led at different levels. You've obviously learned a lot of lessons along the way. What are some of the, maybe a couple key takeaways you've learned about leadership?

Gen. Shwedo 34:00

I think the lesson is, don't forget who you are. You know, I wasn't born a general. I very much was scrubbing toilets, you know, up on the Hill. And I think going back to don't forget who you are, and being able to, you know, hey, there were there were times when we were shoveling snow. I have learned, you know, back to getting to know that your people show up when it's crappy. Don't show up only when it is convenient for you. But you showed that hey, I love you because I'll show up. And it really is: Never forget who you are. I mean, you know, you sure as hell wouldn't get that vote when you were second lieutenant. So, it's not going to change your life too much. And I think people understand when you really care about them, you know, and if you care about them, they'll do what you know, whatever needs to be done. And the last part is my airmen used to roll their eyes. Of course, you were on the hook for the vision and for the battle plan. But as I said before, these are amazing airmen, and they will do whatever needs to be done to win that fight. But I'd often tell them when they were, you know, struggling, “Look, I work for you, I'm removing your impediments so you can do that, you know, kill the bad guys.” And you know, I've made a career out of playing practical jokes on bad guys, because these guys were really good at it. But when I'd say, “I work for you…” they roll their eyes. But eventually they understood that if there wasn't enough gas here, if there wasn't, remove those impediments, so they can do that. And so that was something that I did as a lieutenant, captain, I've been pretty good at it, you know, up to this point.

Doug Lindsay 35:38

So, and it really helps that value proposition, they feel like they really are part of a team. Now, do they matter regardless of the, of the level of the organization?

Gen. Shwedo 35:45

Absolutely. And, you know, to understand and, you know, the military, on the Army side, you know, the leaders eat last. I've got numerous Army brothers; I don't like talking about it. But all kidding aside, there's a lesson there. And you know, be humble and understand that you really do work for those guys, because they are doing the mission. And once you do that, and once they understand that they no-lie will remove those impediments and, no-lie, they do care about you, you'll be amazed what kind of feats that you'll see happen on the other end.

Doug Lindsay 36:19

Well, thank you for that. Any final thoughts or anything we didn't talk about that you want to talk about?

Gen. Shwedo 36:23

No, I can't thank you guys enough for the opportunity and, you know, asking about the Institute for Future Conflict. Honestly, everything they've done has nothing to do with me and everything to do with this command team here because they have given me all the opportunities. From Gen. Clark, the Dean, the, you know, the comm and the Department of Athletics and people kind of have a furrowed brow. Yes, we have, we have a focus on the Department of Athletics, too. So, thanks for the opportunity so I can share with you with all the great things they're doing to make our cadets ready for that future fight.

Doug Lindsay 36:55

Appreciate that. And appreciate your example and what you're doing with that. If people want to connect with you or get in touch with the IFC and find out kind of what's going on, what's the best way for them?

Gen. Shwedo 37:04

Absolutely. So, if you just Google Institute for Future Conflict, it'll come up. And then on the bottom, you'll see a couple of lieutenant’s names. Luckily, and I tease them all the time — I compare and contrast me, coaching, football and teaching boxing and unarmed combat and you're getting two different worlds. But they often are the ones that we tease them and go, they're the real bosses of the IFC, they'll get back to us on what we need to do or to answer questions or anything along those lines.

Doug Lindsay 37:34

That's great. And I know that Checkpoints magazine has a three-part series that's coming out that kind of amplifies some of the people and some of the team members that you built on there that you mentioned as well today. Looking forward to that.

Gen. Shwedo 37:46

So lastly, there's not that many Shwedo’s in the globe — you can find me fairly quickly.

Doug Lindsay 37:48

That's great. Well, we thank you for your time. Thank you for your legacy. Thank you for all that you're doing for the Academy.

Gen. Shwedo 37:55

Thanks for the opportunity. Thanks a lot.

KEYWORDS

cadets, leadership, Air Force Academy, cyber, IFC, learned, Academy, warfare, conflict, 21st century, understand, opportunity, missiles, led, future, football, Air Force, airmen, work, leaders, studied, history, West Wing

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