The Value of Experiential Learning: Kris Johns' Secrets to Success in Graduate School

Victors in Grad School

Welcome back to another episode of the Victors in Grad School podcast! In today's episode, we have a special guest, Kris Johns, who will be sharing his educational journey and offering valuable advice on pursuing a graduate degree. Kris will delve into the importance of learning how to learn, the demanding nature of graduate school, and the accessibility of online resources. He will also emphasize the significance of gaining practical experience through internships and building connections in one's field. Additionally, Kris will reflect on his own experiences and share the lessons he wishes he had learned earlier in his academic journey. So grab a cup of coffee and get ready to dive into an enlightening conversation on career development and furthering education.

This podcast is brought to you by The Office of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan-Flint. If you’re still wondering about other things to consider when it comes to graduate school, you can also contact the Office of Graduate Programs at UM-Flint. We’re here to answer questions Monday – Friday from 8:00 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. EST. You can also find out more about the 50+ programs that the university has to offer here.

Transcript

Christopher Lewis:

Welcome back to the Victors in grad school podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Christopher Lewis, director of Graduate Programs at the University of Michigan, Flint. Really excited to have you back again this week. This week, as always, we're having a conversation. We're talking about this journey that you are on that you're thinking about maybe in the future or you're applying right now or you're in graduate school and you're seeing that light at the end of the proverbial tunnel. And we're talking about success. We're talking about how you can find success during that journey and also making you think about a lot of different things in different ways to be able to think about graduate school in different ways, to be able to help you along this journey that you're on. And every week we do that by talking to other people, people that have gone before you, that have gone ahead of you and have experienced this journey for themselves. So I love being able to talk to different people every week and be able to get their perspectives on graduate school. And everyone has a little bit different perspective and a little bit different journey that they can share with you, that'll help you to form the plan that you need to be able to be successful in that journey that you're on today. We got another great guest. Kris Johns is with us today. And Kris has been working in, I'm going to say social media and digital media and working in a lot of different areas for a number of years. Kris did his undergrad work at U of M. Flint. Then went and got his first master's degree at Michigan State University in Human Resource Management and Labor Relations. Then got another master's degree in Health Services Administration in Health Management and Policy. And as I said, he's done a number of different things in his career and I'm really excited to be able to learn from him and to talk with him today about that journey that he's been on. Kris, thanks so much for being here today.

Kris Johns:

Thank you, Chris, very much.

Christopher Lewis:

I really appreciate you being here today. And I guess first and foremost what I would love to do is turn the clock back in time. I'd love to go back to maybe back to the days when you were at U of Influent for the first time, working on that undergraduate degree. At some point, whether it was during undergrad or right after your undergraduate experience, there was some point in time where you made the choice. You made the choice that you wanted to take that next step. You wanted to go on to graduate school. Talk to me about what was that impetus that made you say, this is what I want to do and this is the direction I'm going to go.

Kris Johns:

Excellent question. So we'll go to the origin story. In high school I was a midling student and my origin story was I actually had a former girlfriend. I was going to go to Not Community College. She was going to come to u of m Flint. And we by just happened to Chance in the summer of 1999, accompanied her to U of M. Flint. And I thought, this is a nice place. And I said, would you admit me? And they said, do you have money? And I said yes. And they said, well, you're in. And so I was a member of that fall 1999 class. And I think for me, U of M. Flint really gave me the foundation to be involved socially and academically. My family has a background in the labor movement. Really. Almost all my family members on my dad's side were a card carrying union member of some sort. And so I was interested in labor relations. And there was a handful of schools in the Midwest, also out east that had labor relations schools. So it's now called something different at Michigan State, but it was called the Master's of labor and Industrial Relations. And the key piece there was that next step would be a master's degree. And I think just the one first cautionary tale I want to share with the listeners is I was way too young. I graduated from U of M flint in three years. I went year round and I thought that I had to do this to get onto the next journey. And in this case, I graduated from U of M. Flint 21. I entered graduate school at 21. That was too young of an age. And I think the first takeaway that I would encourage people is just to enjoy the journey because, Chris, you love your job, but it's work. At the end of the day, it's still a job. You're leaving your house, you're putting a nice shirt and tie on and you're kind of going someplace else for five days a week for 40 plus hours. And I want to emphasize to the folks thinking about graduate school that enjoy your life. And nothing I did in regards to getting out of school early put me any further ahead than I would have if I would have waited a year or even two years to whether it be work full time or do different pieces. But to get back to where how I did that is I did internships. And that was really the key. And I led this off that I was a middling student in high school. I was a 3.2 student at U of M. Flint. My GRE scores were okay, but what was critical was the internships. I did an internship at the UAW 659 in Flint and then I also did one in labor relations at what is Genesis Regional Medical Center, which has a different name now, but that was a signal to graduate school that I was serious. And I just cannot emphasize more than enough to the people listening, please do an internship. It doesn't need to be your classic 20 hours a week internship. I did one while I did a three credit internship as a class, but then I also just made connections, because ultimately, if you had a five hour a week internship, if those are five quality hours of exposure, that will help you just as much as 20 hours of sitting in an office filing papers. And what I would encourage people and there's the other side of that is it gives you an exposure to see, because, again, a lot of careers, they look very sexy and cool from the outside, but when you have to do it every day, it's a different view. And doing that internship is a wonderful signal to both future employers, your first employer as well as graduate schools, that you're serious about your field.

Christopher Lewis:

Getting an internship is so important. Getting some experience is so important, as you are looking at even your undergraduate degree, getting out there while you're in that undergraduate degree, even if you're in high school, taking some time, and if you think that it's a field that you have an interest in, take the time. Shadow some people, start easy and at least see what people do and see what people do in different types of places and different types of scenarios. So I use the example of if you want to become a physical therapist. If you want to become a physical therapist. Physical therapists work in many different locations. They work with kids, they work with athletes. They work in clinical and hospital settings. They work in outpatient settings. Just because you think you want to be a physical therapist, you might not want to work with pediatric patients, okay, that's fine. But understand what the different routes that are available. Or if you're looking at a degree like psychology, well, what would you want to do in know all those type of things. And the more that you can like what you were saying, Chris, you get an internship, you get some experience, you shadow people so important. So as you were doing that for yourself and you found that you wanted to do that first Master's degree, talk to me about what you learned along the way that led you down the path of then looking like in your career trajectory, you may have pivoted a little bit. You got that first master's, and then you made some pivots and maybe didn't stay in labor relations completely. So along the way, what did you learn about yourself and about the career that made you decide to move in a different direction?

Kris Johns:

Well, excellent question, Chris. I think the first piece was for myself. Again, it was 20 years ago. Exactly. Right now, I was in Phoenix, Arizona, doing an internship for Honeywell, and that was a corporate internship. And that was a strategic mistake. I had one internship offer to do labor relations for Sikorsky Helicopter in Connecticut and the other was to do a human generalist internship in Phoenix. And I wanted to have fun and I wanted to go to Phoenix. Well, the problem was I had too much fun and the job offer never came. And think the other side that I realized there is that if you want to niche down, commit to the niche. In hindsight, if 20 years ago if I would have chose to be labor relations, I think my life would be a lot different. I would be in a different spot, but I still would be working. I mean, I don't know if I'd be a better person today, but I think professionally things would be a lot different. And I think so in terms of that piece, the lesson learned is number one, niche down. And I know it's kind of difficult early, but for example, you mentioned physical therapy. If you maybe go to a senior rehab and then you go to a pediatrics and you go to a sports and you said, I really love working with kids, then commit to that in the sense that the more people you know in that industry, it will help you. And I think that's also the other piece I want to go as part of this, at least for the first master's degree it allowed me to do is knowing those people, allowed me to get letters of recommendation that were outside of my teachers, outside of my professors, which were very helpful. But what was very nice is that when you have people who work in the industry who potentially are known by other people, that letter of recommendation is very powerful because again, let's look at this holistically. Is there's grades as a big component, your GRE scores. But then the other two sides is going to be your internship, your experiences and then also who you know. And I think the one piece that really ultimately I tell people I'm in the relationship business, I've done a lot of different things. I'll continue to do a lot of things. I have a day job and a side hustle and all of that is based off of my personal relationships. And graduate school gave me an excellent foundation for just the technical knowledge. But I think the one thing that young people is that graduate school is not a silver bullet. And I'll tell this story in a little bit once we get to the U of M piece. But the key critical thing is that people want to work with nice folks. And I think the more you get to know people in your field and let them know you as a brand, again, you showing up, being dependable, asking questions. And this is where I would encourage really students of any age to get involved with your professional society. There's often either a free student, know again, now, these meetings with Zoom, you can be in the room with people from across the country, around the world in the same lobby, and people will know that name. And the reason I mentioned that is to your point, Dr. Lewis, kind of like what you can do to prepare. I would encourage people as a student to reach out to folks, because I don't think anybody would say no to a student saying, I'm a student at XYZ, at U of M Flint. I'm the class of 2024. I'd like to learn more about you and get your pointers. I believe eight out of ten people would say yes to a phone call. And nowadays, with Zoom, it's even easier. And what will help you is, twofold, you're going to learn from other people's mistakes. If you were to speak with me, I have a lot of mistakes I would tell you about, but I would also have things that worked out, I would share with that. And then the other side is the million dollar question is, who else should I talk to? And I think when you get to that point in your career and in that learning, that is mission critical, because that's what's going to help you get maybe the second job is your network. Yes, you're going to need to have a degree that's kind of mandatory for many jobs, but once you fulfill that requirement, it's a checkbox. It's very rare that employers go, oh, he went to U of M versus this school. It's more they have a degree check. And then it's a case of, well, he knows this person, and they work together on that project. And so my thesis here is just get involved, and whether it be from the internship or a professional society, you're going to end up meeting people who will know other people through their network that will help you make that next transition.

Christopher Lewis:

I mentioned the fact that you went from U of Mflant with your bachelor's degree. You went to Michigan State, and you kind of talked about the fact that you chose that because they had that specific program that you specifically wanted in labor relations. And then actually following that degree, you came back and you went to the University of Michigan for another master's degree. So talk to me about you're in the middle of that master's degree or in that master's degree and decide you want to get a second master's degree. What made you choose to go to the University of Michigan for the Master of Health Services Administration, and what made you choose the University of Michigan?

Kris Johns:

As I mentioned, I was doing a corporate internship for Know, a large multinational conglomerate, and our summer project was outsourcing. How can we find engineers in China, India, and the Czech Republic? And that just put a little bit of a sour taste in my mouth, and I think just kind of the corporate piece as well. And going back, I did an intern, a semester long internship at what is now Ascension Grand Blank. I don't know if it's Ascension Genesis, but genesis Regional Medical Center in Grand Blank. And I enjoyed healthcare. And I thought wrongly at the time that you can't outsource healthcare. I've since learned you can. But put it in context though, I was at this age, roughly 22, 23, so still very young. And I think this kind of goes back to the piece about I had rushed through U of M, Flint. I did spring and summer, two semester, two years of spring and summer. So I was done before really a month after I turned 21. I was too young. I just professionally, from a maturation standpoint, I needed just to be somewhere else and maybe even just an entry level job for a couple of years. But alas, I put myself in a position where it was two things. It was kind of an interest in healthcare, in working locally. And the second piece was the job market wasn't so hot. So if I would have gotten a job and then at this had it initially I had a girlfriend went to You've Been Flint together. She broke up with me. But after a couple of months, I think it was the best for everybody. And then I had met a new person who's my wife. Now I myself, if you were to say, Chris, we need you to be in Dubuque, Iowa in the morning, I'd be there. I'd be, know, ready to go. She is not an adventurer like that. So she was from the flyn area. And it was a case where it just know, learning from mistakes and just know the corporate piece. Because if I would have gotten that job through Michigan State, it would have been a two year rotation where you live somewhere else every eight months and then you would be going from location to location and you'd be a professional. Itinerant professional, but it would not be a sedentary lifestyle. And so as part of that, I'm now into what would be the fall of 2004 and kind of making that decision and applied and had the background. And I had applied to several graduate schools, so I applied to Iowa, also to the University of Alabama, Birmingham, and then to U of M. And U of M at the time was ranked number mean as far as a student profile. I was an okay student and I was accepted, which I was very surprised kind of looking at back in hindsight. I think they have some slots for people from Michigan because it was an international, diverse cohort. And I think the number of people from Michigan were maybe in the single digits. But I was from Michigan and it was an excellent learning. And so from that side, it really was a case of just like, looking at what the future was in healthcare and knowing that Michigan has large health care systems. And so for myself, I had graduated. But again, going back to the internship piece, I had did an internship with the Veterans Administration in Saginaw that summer of 2004. So I had graduated from Michigan State in May, and then I started an internship. And so that entire summer I was commuting from Flint to Saginaw to work for the VA. And it was a paid internship. I learned a tremendous amount. And that was a case where that kind of gave me that exposure to healthcare. And there's some other mistakes I made, but going forward. But I think what's kind of mission critical was that the U of M piece was. I know many people are interested in rankings, and I was as well as a student, so I can't say no. But at the time they were ranked number one in US. News and World Report, which they always reminded us whenever tuition was due or there was a test, that you're number one and having that master's degree. And I kind of see that first degree from Michigan State really being an extension of undergrad. I just kind of did political science. I really rushed through my three years at U of M Flint, and that was kind of really my time to just become a bit more mature. I made a number of lifelong friends at Michigan State that I still hold till to this day. That friendship has helped me out in many other professional endeavors. And so at this point, we're now at U of M. And I was accepted really primarily. Again, my GRE scores were they asked me to take the GRE again. I got the same exact score as I did the first time. But I think it was a case of having the degree, having that professional experience, really bringing a good amount of professional experience to day one was very helpful to going to U of M-A-N arbor.

Christopher Lewis:

You made it through two different graduate degrees. You found success in that journey and came out on the other side with your degrees in hand. What did you have to do to set yourself up for success in each of those degrees? And what did you have to do to maintain that success throughout that graduate school journey?

Kris Johns:

Yes, so I think the success piece was really the experience both at Michigan State and at U of M. It's one thing to learn it in a book or read about it or hear about it, and it's another thing to see it. And I know I've been mentioning the internships a number of times, but for example, when I was at Michigan State, I was able to sit in also at Genesis on contract labor relations, contract negotiation. So when I was at Michigan State, we had a class on contract negotiation. And I was using terms that the professionals used and that students just would not have known of because they just were never in that environment. And it wasn't to say I was any better, but just I learned things that you wouldn't have learned in the book. You really wouldn't have learned till your first job. And it really helped shape that piece. And I think the other side of setting up for success is just looking at it holistically. Ultimately, I was very focused on the ranking. I think even if Ann Arbor was ranked 10th, I still would have applied. I mean, if they ranked 100th, I would have been interested. But for myself, it was a case of just having the professional experience to kind of know what you want to do, because for both degrees, if you knew where you were going, like, for me, I wish I would have stuck with labor relations. Things would have been a lot different. And then going into the healthcare degree, it was just I made some strategic blunders there. But I think the setup for success was the experience and then also having some connections that you could draw back on. And in this case, when I was going into U of M, I had worked at had spent time at Genesis, also at the VA. So I had known people that I was actually able to call on for classes while at U of M. So.

Christopher Lewis:

You completed both of these degrees, and as I said, you've done some Pivoting in your career, and you are doing a lot of work right now in digital media, social media, and working with a number of different clients in the corporate world. So as you look back now and you look back at the degrees that you received, your bachelor's, your two master's degrees, how do you feel that those graduate degrees prepared you for the work that you're doing on a daily basis?

Kris Johns:

Excellent question. Dr. Lewis. The mission critical piece there is just the learning how to learn. And I would really credit Dr. Monroe at U of M, Flint, in the political science department of really laying that foundation. Where I'm at now, I'm essentially kind of in my third know, having left U of M, Ann Arbor. My first job was in Akron, Ohio, at a large integrated health system and things just that was a case where my then girlfriend, who became my fiance, who is now my wife, was living here in Flint, and she said, I'm not moving to Ohio. Very wise choice in general. But it was a case where I got a couple of years experience. And so then I come back to Flint, and I have worked a number of different jobs in a number of different areas. But I think the key thing about graduate school is it really taught me how to learn and how to learn quickly, because at Michigan State, you had three classes a semester. At u of m it was five. And these were difficult classes. I mean, the 60 credits at U of M was probably really the toughest thing I've done academically, and it was very demanding. And as we move forward to 2023, I started a new job with a social marketing firm, and part of that was getting the certification. So you had a week to get five or six different certifications, and you had to learn quickly. And where we're at now is a case where information in so many places is free. You can probably get the equivalent of a BA or even a master's degree on YouTube. It's just how do you apply it and are you willing to learn? And I think that's really the mission critical piece is that you just need to be open to learning and just embrace the journey and know that you don't know what tomorrow will bring. And my advice, just to take one step back, Doctor, is when I was at Michigan State, so I graduated from U of M Flint debt free. I had a chance to live at home. I also worked I was a dishwasher. I was a professional dishwasher for three years, and I got scholarships, and I was able to leave U of M Flint debt free. Moving ahead to Michigan State. The first year I took out loans, but the second year I worked in the dorm. And it was not, I think, ideal, but you make the best of it. But part of that piece was you got free room and board, free tuition and a stipend. And it might have not been the ideal graduate school experience, but that second year was free. And then moving ahead to U of M Ann Arbor, I ended up taking out loans for the two years. And my encouragement to students and please is do not focus on the brand. I can tell you on one hand, the number of times people mentioned that I went to U of M Ann Arbor for this degree. One was I was at Genesis, and they gave me no money towards my degree. I mean, other than a paycheck, but I was paying student loans. I would highly encourage, if you're wanting to do a graduate degree, please look out about graduate assistantships. There's a host across the board is look at cost that oftentimes, whether it be I applied to Cornell for my first degree for labor relations was not accepted. I don't know if I would have went to Cornell that would have made life any different. But I just ask people, please do not bury yourself in tens and tens of thousands of dollars of debt to get a brand name, just to be able to wear the sweater, go to a place that's affordable. Take your time. If your employer can pay for it, please do not be in a rush. And then secondly, I would also highly encourage if you can find places that will give you a graduate assistantship and seek those out. And oftentimes for me, I worked in the dorm. I made it a wonderful experience. And what I just don't want people to do is that you get your dream degree, and then now you have a lifetime of obligation to pay it back. Because I will say that I think the master's degrees were more of a personal thing. I probably could have done a lot of what I'm doing, maybe not some of the healthcare stuff, but what I'm doing today without a master's degree, it's just nice to have, and I'm very proud of it. But what I thought I knew at 21, 23, 25 is a lot different than I am now 42. And for young people who get very status focused about, well, if I go to this school, it'll help me do this, it's not at the end of the day, people are buying you. Your brand is your personality. It's your background. It's who you are. The one thing I tell people, and this would be quick, is you either can be an and person or a but Dr. Lewis is a great guy, and I want him on my team. And then there's people like, Chris is nice, but he's annoying. And I've had people tell me that. I mean, not every job has been super successful because it's just a fit. And I think it's one of those things where I've gotten jobs because of who I was, not necessarily because, oh, Chris went to U of M, Ann Arbor. Check. He's got the job. And then I've lost jobs because of personality, because of fit, and it had nothing to do with the degree. And so I would say, just to close, my three takeaways are, please don't bury yourself in a mountain of debt over a degree. It's very important to you. But for many other people, it's a credential. And do they have a master's degree? Yes. Very rarely. Where they got that master degree, will it make a big difference on the employment side? Alumni networks matter. Number two, we're all in a relationship business. There's been a number of things where I met somebody on a Monday and then got a phone call on a Friday because I had a skill set that could help them. And that kind of leads, I think, into the 2.1 is be a helpful person. Know your niche in the food chain until you're the boss. Be a helpful person because the boss needs help. And I think the one side is that get the master's degree, learn, but extend your skills and be a helpful person, and that will open up so many doors. And then lastly, just get the experience, the internships. And again, it does not need to be the full official three credit. I don't even know how many hours it is now for an undergrad at U of M Flint, but even if it's a five hour internship, or it could even just be. Meeting people make those connections because those will last for both your graduate school application, but it'll last for your career.

Christopher Lewis:

As you think back now after going through these graduate degrees, and you think back to that younger self that went through those, and you've given a lot of pieces of advice today. But I guess as you think back, is there any advice that you would have hoped that someone would have given you that would have helped you to find success in that journey that you went on?

Kris Johns:

Wonderful question, Dr. Lewis. I think what I would have tell what 42 year old Chris would tell 21 year old Chris is to slow down is that the clock is not your enemy. And when you get to our level, does it matter if you retire at 67 or 68? It doesn't. I think for myself, in a perfect world, what would have been helpful is I would have loved to have done like, a maricor just to get experience, just to get my degree, even if it was maybe a gap year, taking a semester off to do something. In hindsight, I would have loved to maybe done the Disney program where you go to Disney for a semester or even go out west. So I think the key piece there is just taking it slow and getting experiences and not being in a rush to graduate and allowing yourself to have those opportunities that students get to have, whether it be in AmeriCorps or doing a fellowship for a year. I think that would have been really very helpful just to mature as a young person and then give myself more experiences and just a different perspective.

Christopher Lewis:

So true. And I think a lot of times people at that age are moving really fast and they want to make money or they want to move faster, or people are telling them that they need to jump into that career, and sometimes slowing down is the best policy. So I appreciate you sharing that. Is there any other piece of advice that you'd want to give to anyone that's going to graduate school that would help them in this journey that they're on?

Kris Johns:

Yes. Start preparing for the GRE. Math was not my strong suit. I did very well in the verbal. But we didn't have Khan Academy back then. We actually had to buy a book. We had to go to what there was a store called Borders, which is gone. I went to Borders and I bought a GRE prep book, and I slaved over that book for months. And again, I think the other side, too, is I think there's just we can kind of question about just innate IQ, but I probably could have gone to a number of prep courses, and I don't know how better my score would have been. So I also would encourage people, please take those prep tests early. And I took the LSAT. I did not do very well at all. Take the prep test, see where you're at. And if there are certain areas that you excel in, then press on those strengths. But if there's areas where you struggle, work on that. And then again, we didn't have Khan Academy in 2001. And so use those free resources, use what's available and put the time in because the GRE test is what it is. I mean, it's not going to change now until in the next ten years. And learn the test and be prepared. Nothing should be a surprise in terms of what the career is. You should know by talking to people the test, you should be able to better understand how that test is set up and what your strengths and weaknesses are and what you can do to improve. And I think put that time in because and again, graduate school is a signal to employers that you are serious. And I just want you to be serious about being serious. And I think that will really help you out. Because I would say this without my internships, I wouldn't have gotten into Michigan State because there's really nothing on my scholastic resume that would have indicated I would have been a good fit. There was people with much better grades, much better GRE scores. But because I had those internships and just please be serious about your experience. That's really the mission critical thing. And then get ready for the test because those test scores are real and a good test score can help you get a scholarship.

Christopher Lewis:

Well, Kris, I just want to say thank you. Thank you for being here today. Thank you for sharing your journey and for sharing the things that you learned along the way that were both positive and negative. Because when you go through these experiences, it's important to share both. And I wish you all the best.

Kris Johns:

Thank you.