Inspiring leaders: Gautam Bhattacharyya

Inclusivity Included: Powerful personal stories

Continuing our “Inspiring Leaders” series, we feature Gautam Bhattacharyya, a member of Reed Smith’s executive committee, chair of the firm’s India business team, and former managing partner of the Singapore office. Gautam joins co-hosts Iveliz Crespo and John Iino to discuss his experiences and his personal journey to leadership, especially as a person of color in the UK and as someone who works across cultures. He will also share some of his own mistakes along the way and alert future leaders to the pitfalls they should avoid as they climb the ladder of success.

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Transcript:

Intro: Hi, I'm John Iino and I'm Iveliz Crespo. Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast Inclusivity Included Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

John: Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. We're continuing our series on inspiring leaders and today we have just a fantastic guest to, to join us. Gautam Bhattacharyya has been a longtime friend of mine, a long, long time partner with a firm, just a great, great history here at Reed Smith. Among other things, Gautam currently serves on our executive committee. He's the co-chair of Reed Smith's India team. He previously was the managing partner of our Singapore office I think actually when we opened the Singapore office. So the founding partner, right? And uh maybe, maybe most significantly or more recently, Gautam is the co-host of Reed Smith's Arbitral Insights podcast, which very jealously I understand now has now been the number one downloaded Reed Smith podcast, even surpassing, Inclusivity Included. So it couldn't be a better, better time for you to join our podcast as an inspiring leader, Gautam. Welcome to the podcast.

Gautam: Thank you John and thank you Iveliz. I mean, I've got to say just as an intro to this, you know, I'm inspired, talking to you two today because you and Iveliz have been incredible leaders. You've been great teachers to us on the importance of diversity, equality and inclusion in all its forms. You know, you have really led the way so well. So I feel very privileged John and Iveliz to be speaking with you today.

John: And of course, neglected to mention, of course, we're here with our co-host Iveliz Crespo. Good morning, Iveliz.

Iveliz: Good morning John.

John: And the great thing today is actually Iveliz and I are in the same city. Um We're not actually in the same room today, but uh it's great to be in the same time zone. So when I say good morning, at least for us here in Los Angeles and to Gautam good afternoon over there in London. Yeah.

Gautam: Yeah. Global Reed Smith, right?

John: Global Reed Smith at its best. So you know what we'd like to start off got to because the title of our podcast is powerful personal stories. Let's talk a little bit about your personal story. Tell us, you know, your your journey, your background, you know how you got to be the person you are today.

Gautam: Of course, John, you know, it's actually very interesting. When you ask me that question, it sort of takes me back, literally takes me back to my absolute early days. And I grew up in Northwest London in a suburb of London, which is in the borough of Harrow. And I did all my schooling and my legal education in London. So London's really in my heart and soul and having finished my legal education, I did my bachelor's and master's from London. I then a trainee solicitor because here in the UK, we have a system where after you finish your legal education, you have to do two years of what was called when I was a, a trainee was called articles of clerkship, which shows how old I am. But uh it's now called a training contract. And I did that from 1991 to 1993 at a firm that is now Denton's. Um, it was called something different in those days. It was called Denton, Hall, Bergen and Warren's. And I qualified there in 1993 in the London office. When I was coming to qualify. I really enjoyed in the course of my seats, corporate work and disputes work. And I was a bit torn actually when I was qualifying as to which seat to go with and I ultimately chose disputes as I felt that would, you know, give me what I really wanted in the sense that I felt the bug, you know how people say you feel the bug of a discipline. And I, and I felt that discipline and I had an inspirational figurehead and we may well come back to inspirational figureheads a bit later, John and Iveliz. But I had a very, very inspirational boss who led the group at Denton's at that time, who I was very lucky to work for as a trainee and then as an associate solicitor. And uh anyway, I qualified in 1993 as a solicitor. I remained at Denton's till May 97 and I joined Richard’s Butler, the predecessor firm of Reed Smith uh in the London office in June 1997. And I became a partner in the firm in 2000. And, you know, I do a broad mix of disputes work both litigation and arbitration. And that in a nutshell is my story and that brings us to this podcast today, John and the fact that I've, you know, obviously known you John, of course, I know all the people involved in this podcast well, but John, I've known you for a long, long time. And I remember fondly your times as uh the global chair of the transactional practice at the firm. So, you know, now again, I mean, you know, I think you ought to be a guest on this and I can interview you next time, John.

John: Well, I, I certainly remember singing karaoke a couple of times as well. So there's two things we probably probably don't get in too much detail of memories. Well, that's fantastic.

Iveliz: You know, Gautam, I, I often say on this podcast that, you know, our experiences, right? Our, our lived experiences really do shape who we are. And I'm kind of curious, I know most of our audience is US-based. But I, I really want people to understand, you know, those unique experiences that people of color face across the globe are really so similar. And so I'm curious if you can tell me, you know, what has been your experience as a person of color in the UK? And how have those experiences really shaped your approach to practicing law and serving your clients?

Gautam: Sure Iveliz. I, you know, you know, that's such a powerful question that you've asked because the UK, like the US has had a, has had a very troubled history with race relations and like so many of an ethnic minority background, you know, I personally, since I grew up as a young boy, have faced a fair bit of um and have had a fair experience of racism and prejudice and, you know, things move on, things get better. But certainly those experiences as a young boy growing up and even as a younger person, they really do stay with you. But it's how I think it's how you deal with them that matters and it's how you look ahead that matters. And, you know, I think we've had and we continue to have issues in this country that amongst other things is one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about a diversity, equality and inclusion in all its forms and the importance of our racial equity action plan uh to name other things and to try to use my voice to really champion the sorts of issues we all take so dear. I think also what experience to racism and prejudice growing up in the UK uh exposes us to and certainly I feel myself is that it makes you more determined and more resilient. You don't fear rejection.

Um In fact, when I was uh you know, uh a younger person looking for a training contract, I mentioned to you and John that in uh that, you know, I had my training contract from 1991 to 1993. The, the story back then was that we had to apply for our training contracts at the end of, of the second year of our law degrees. So I applied for my training contracts in 1989. And frankly, I found then that rejection can really be turned into a positive and quite frankly should be embraced because it wasn't easy for me to be really honest with you both to get a training contract at that time. I mean, I'm, you know, talking now 33 years ago when I was applying for these, but I think it's fair to say that it, it was harder for me as a person of color than it was for other people who were, if you like my peers, my equivalents who weren't from an ethnic background, many law firms, many major law firms rejected me on paper without calling me for interview. Many major law firms didn't even reply to my applications. That's absolutely honest. The firms that did respond, I'll never forget who they were, but there weren't that many, to be honest with you. I probably only had a handful of interviews whereas my peers who weren't from an ethnic background had double, sometimes triple the, the interviews that I had. So, but in many ways, and I know this sounds odd to me saying it to you 33 years on at the time. Of course, I was downhearted, of course, you can't avoid that. But then it, it dawned on me that you should embrace rejection because actually it makes you even more determined and more resilient. So I, so I mean, I'd answer your question like that. You believe that, um, the experiences that we've undoubtedly faced do, make us more resilient and, and make us more determined and ultimately make us want to make a change and do things positive like we're talking about now and the sorts of initiatives we are all involved in.

Iveliz: Well, you know, and I, and I want to just say, I bet you they're kicking themselves now for not accepting you and giving you an offer, so you’ve come full circle.

Gautam: Well, well, I'm also going to share with you one other thing because we are talking very openly. One of the firms that I didn't hear back from was Richard’s Butler. So, so actually when I applied in the first round in ’89 I didn't have any reply from, from, from Richard’s Butler. So it was a bit ironic that in 1997 I joined Richard’s Butler as a qualified associate. So uh but you know, hey, look, these things are all part and parcel of life, right?

John: And I, and I wonder as a follow up to that, you know, over the course of your career, you know, all your victories and litigation and, and arbitration when it's one of those other firms on the other side, you just relish in it just a little bit more. That's fantastic.

Gautam: But John, I do and I'm gonna ask you very honestly. Yes, I do. I'm not going to name the firms because that would be unfair. But yeah, I do enjoy it. John: Oh, fantastic along the similar lines. But, you know, first of all, congratulations by the way on receiving the this more recently, the Legal Era Global Achievers Award. And I also note that last year, you were among the top inspirational leaders at the ethnicity awards last year. So just fantastic. But with all these recognitions and in particular as a person of color and actually, you know, rather than person of color, Iveliz and I had just come across a new term uh last week that people are, we we learned about instead of persons of color, people of color, we say members of the global majority.

Gautam: Interesting.

John: Think about that one for a while, right?

Gautam: It makes sense, it makes sense.

John: So in particular, as a member of the global majority, but as a person of color, as we may say, more traditionally, how have you built your career and, and, you know, become this, you know, so recognized. And here in the US, you know, of course, you said, mentioned like over the course of 30 or three years, we've seen kind of the ebbs and flow of, you know, emphasis on diversity and, and not, not so much, there's, you know, been affirmative action and there's been, you know, rejection of affirmative action just in terms of your, your, your career, how, how have you positioned yourself to be so highly successful and recognized?

Gautam: Well, the first thing is John, that I should say is I'm no paragon of virtue and I'm certainly not the finished product. But what I would say is, you know, a bit like I was saying to you Iveliz a moment ago, uh resilience, not giving up um enjoying what you do, you know, teamwork and doing your best for clients all the time being open, being yourself, building rapport and friendships with clients and colleagues, mentoring others and being the beneficiary of reverse mentoring. I mean, I know that although I mentor lots of people more junior than me. I've learned a lot from younger lawyers, younger partners, younger colleagues who have taught me different perspectives. And, and also I think wanting others to surpass me and not just equal me is very important because, you know, just in terms of positioning, thinking about everything. But you know, one other thing I'd like to mention John and this sort of picks up on one thing you said a moment ago, diversity, equality and inclusion didn't even exist as a concept when you know, I was first starting out, I mean, I was the only person of color in my intake when I started my training contract in at Denton Hall. And nowadays things are different but it means that people like me, you, Iveliz, and others, we can all be agents for change, you know, help younger um aspiring lawyers now and to break down barriers. Because I mean, again, talking about, you know, you know, picking up on one comment you made about the global majority, the legal world is so international as we all know and having a broader perspective of life of culture, of language, of all sorts of things is very often even more valuable than anything else.

Iveliz: I think that's beautiful. And one of the things that really strikes me as I hear you speak, it's really that you strongly believe in paying it forward and that is really beautiful. And I know that, you know, we have so many people that have helped us all move forward and progress in our lives. And I'm kind of curious since you're so strong and committed, right to paying it forward in my mind, it, it makes me think maybe you had people that did that for you. And so I'm curious if you, if you have any role models or mentors or sponsors that throughout your life and how they may have influenced your career and really shaped who you are today.

Gautam: Absolutely, Iveliz. Well, I think first and foremost, family and faith are really paramount to me. You know, my late parents were, have always been and continue to be a massive inspiration for me. You know, I'm also religious. So God is very important to me. My faith is very important to me. I'm a devout Hindu. It's very important to me as a person. It's part of what makes me me and uh you know, so that inspires me. So family and faith, definitely interesting what, you know, a person who was a role model to me was someone I never even met. Ok. So when I was a very young lawyer at Denton's, uh I mean, this would have been back in about ’91 there was a, at that time, a very senior partner at one of the other law firms in London who like me was a South Asian heritage and his name was Shashi Rajani. Now I never got to meet Shashi and I really wish I had, but I'd see his photograph in the legal newspapers because he was one of the foremost insolvency and restructuring lawyers at that time. And I'd see his picture in the legal press. And I, and I always thought to myself, I wanna be like him because, because imagine being like him in 1991 and thinking when he was a young lawyer, he had no one to really give him that foot up.

But then I mentioned to you and John, my inspirational boss at Denton's uh his name was Bob Goldspink. He's now retired. He was head of the litigation group at at Denton's and he was a massive inspiration to me. He was so meticulous in everything he did, his, his discipline and how he went about thinking through issues was for me. Incredible and still is something I try to aspire to at Reed Smith. I've had many mentors and teachers and it's so hard to try to cherry pick a few. But one of our retired partners, Katherine Holmes was incredible. She was a competition lawyer of the highest standard, but an even better person. She really was a big inspiration to me. I'd I'd say she taught me how to do things in the right way. There's always a different ways of doing things, but you can do things humanely and you don't have to be nasty doing it.

Then also at Reed Smith, I mean, it's always hard to pick out other people, but I have to call out David Warne, Uh Michael Skrein and Lindsay East. Lindsay's just retired from the firm. David and Michael are amongst our most senior partners. You know, they, again, just how they do things has been inspirational. I'm at the English Bar because here in the UK, we have the concept of barristers. One particular, Queen's Council at the English Bar. Anthony White QC has been a huge inspiration to me, but talking about people of the global majority, as John said, and I'm gonna use that phrase from now, John. I mean, there are three people also who really in, who have inspired me and who continue to inspire me all the time here in the UK, our second most senior court is the Court of Appeal. And the only judge of color in that court is a judge called Lord Justice Ravindra Singh. And I knew Ravindra when he was a practicing lawyer and he's now one of our most senior judges. He's gonna one day be on our Supreme court. I've got no doubt about that, which is the next court above the court of appeal. But Ravindra has always been a massive inspiration to me. Uh He wears a turban, he looks different and he's always been proud of it. And that inspires me as well as his legal brain, which quite frankly, has got the greatest concentration of, of gray cells per square inch possible, I think.

And then there's two other people I wanna shout out please. If I may Iveliz, there's a, a very eminent lawyer in India called Fali Nariman who's in his nineties now, he's in his mid nineties. Still practicing. Has been a dear friend to me and a great mentor to me for many, many years. I actually did a podcast with him a few months ago, which was one of my great career highlights. And last but not least a former judge of the Indian Supreme Court, Justice B. N. Srikrishna, who is again, uh a massive inspiration to me showing that you can do things but be a, you know, a really decent human being at the same time. So that would be, and I must forgive all of those I've not mentioned because it's very hard to cherry pick people. But that would be an answer to your question about who's inspired me, who's sponsored me, who's driven me, who's encouraged me.

John: And that to me really says it, it takes a village and for all those who have been successful that uh you know, we say standing on the shoulders of so many great people before us. Um Iveliz mentioned a little bit about, you know, you continue to pay it forward and I want to drill down a little bit more into that. So as you pay it forward as you mentioned, some of the, you know, the younger lawyers that, that you work with what specific advice do you give some of those folks, especially those who identify as BAME and for those outside the UK B-A-M-E is an acronym for Black Asian Minority Ethnic. But what specific advice do you give those younger folks?

Gautam: Well, I think John, one of the things II I do tell them is don't fear rejection like I said. Embrace it is what I tell them because it's gonna happen and but you've got to believe in yourself and know that you are destined to achieve and you will succeed because you've got all the ability. So don't give up and just keep going because things are changing. You know, now law firms like ours and other law firms, all the major law firms have much better recruitment policies. They don't just need you to have gone to the top five universities in the country which historically was always the reason why lots of people like me didn't get a look in, in that sense in the first instance. So I would just say, you know, you've got to think ahead, think forward because there's so much talent coming through now and it's also generational John because there are so many people now in their twenties who are coming through and the quality just shines through, but they've just got to believe in themselves. So I always tell them don't fear rejection, expect prejudice because you're gonna get it. It's something you can't insulate yourself from it. But, but keep that in the back of your mind, just think about why you're, you know, what are you trying to achieve? And the fact is you've worked hard to get to where you are. No one's pulled your name out of a hat. You're talented because you're talented and the fact that you look different and you might speak a bit differently it doesn't matter here nor there so be proud of who you are and, and, and never, and I know this is a difficult concept because sometimes I feel what I'm gonna say to you, but we all feel imposter syndrome at some time. We all, we all do. It's just inevitable. But I think it's, it's harder when you're a young person applying for jobs at these top law firms. And you're thinking do I belong? And my short answer is of course, you belong. So, so that would be in a nutshell, the sort of advice I do give and I'm very happy to tell you I give to people.

Iveliz: Yeah, I think that's fantastic. And I, you know, I think a lot of the things that you said to me have really highlighted, you know, how much of an inclusive leader you actually are. And I know that, you know, that term has been used very frequently, um particularly over the course of the last two years. And I want to get a sense from you. You know, when you think of inclusive leadership, what does that mean to you?

Gautam: I, I think Iveliz it means that we celebrate what we all have and um what makes us whole, you know, as a law firm, as people in the law firm and just making everyone feel involved and part of what we're trying to achieve because the culture of a firm is very, very important. We all know that and making inclusive leadership a core part of our culture and of our core values because, you know, there's two words in what you said, there's inclusive and there's leadership. And I think you can only be a leader if you're inclusive, you have to ensure that no one feels left out and that we all respect each other. We all want our firm to be a better place. We want people to not hide who they are. We want them to feel proud of who they are. Uh We want them to feel excited about being at Reed Smith and knowing that our culture encourages that because frankly, the world would be a very, very, very boring place if we were all homogenous and thank goodness we're not homogenous. We are different. It makes life a lot more interesting. So that's what I would say. That would be, you know, my immediate thoughts, my immediate reaction to the inclusive leadership thing because it's so important as a concept. Oh, we all know that saying it and doing it are two different things. But I honestly feel and I know I'm a Reed Smith partner saying this, but I honestly feel we do that as a firm.

John: It's like to say that inclusive leaders, like you said, inclusive leaders are effective leaders, inclusive leaders are great leaders. And so until you become inclusive, you really aren't going to be an effective, great leader.

Iveliz: Yeah, I agree with that. And you know, one of the things I like to say on our team often is that I'm a big fan of working smart, right? Smarter, not harder. And I asked this question to Peter. He came, Peter Ellis came to speak to our team and I said, you know, I want to know from you and I'm going to pose the same question to you, right? What are some of the mistakes or pitfalls that you've made, you know, throughout your career that you could share with us so that our future leaders can learn from you, right? And hopefully try to avoid some of those mistakes.

Gautam: Yeah. Well, you know, Iveliz I can't help but laugh at this point because I've made lots of mistakes and I, and I think making mistakes is human and it's a very good thing, everyone makes mistakes, it's what you do to put them right, that matters and what you learn from them that matters. So I'm very proud to say, I've made lots of mistakes Iveliz. But one thing I would say is that it's about, as I say, what you learn from it. And I think one of the things of the many things I've learned from all the mistakes is I don't think you've got to do it all by yourself. There can be this temptation that it's all down to you and it's a solitary thing you've got to lead by leading yourself. And that isn't the case at all. So I always would say, and I do say you, you don't have to do everything yourself and you shouldn't fall into that trap. The second thing is I and this goes back to some things I was talking to you and John about a little bit earlier, but get your mentors, look out for mentors, cherish your mentors and you'll find many people are incredibly generous with their mentorship and their knowledge. And then, and they're not gonna be concerned about you asking them questions because most people will inevitably make time for you. And um I think in, in my younger days, I was hesitant in asking for advice and mentorship from some people. And I really wish I hadn't been. But, but at the same time, I was, I also benefited from some people actually volunteering it to me. I think they probably must have worked out my angst at not asking them myself and they just sort of reached out to me and I'll be eternally grateful to them for that. And, you know, you learn a lot from what people do and what they say and also how they act. So I think that's important.

And the other thing I would also say is, and this again goes back to something I, I was mentioning to you and John a bit earlier. But I think in my, in my younger years, I probably didn't back myself enough at times in the sense of I probably wasn't sure that I should, you know, push for this or do this or maybe think about doing this and in hindsight and I appreciate hindsight is a beautiful thing, but we learn from it and I, and I think I would always encourage people as younger lawyers, as younger practitioners to back themselves and actually not be, occasionally not be too hesitant about doing something or trying to raise this point or make this suggestion because, you know, there's no monopoly on wisdom. So I've learned from this over the years. And so I think those are some of the things that I would say in terms of um lessons I've learned. I mean, like, I mean, like I say, Iveliz I've made many, many mistakes and I'm glad I have because I've learned from them.

John: Absolutely. And as long as you're learning from the mistakes, you know, that's, that's all part of life people, like you say, we're, we're all we're all human. Um I would like to shift the focus a little bit Gautam and personally, I, you know, I've been at Reed Smith for a long time and, and the benefit of being in a global firm is that you really get to experience different cultures and, and working across differences, I guess is a good way to say it as well. But for you, I know you, you've worked in Asia in leading our Singapore office, you lead our India team. So obviously you have lots and lots of experience of working with other cultures, working from the UK to the US as well. So for, for those folks who may not be as experienced as you are in terms of working with across a number of different cultures, what advice do you have to give in terms of specifically focusing on, on, on working and, and building relationships across cultures, across countries?

Gautam: In two words, do it. Um I think it's such a, it's a hugely beneficial thing. Um I've loved it. I think it's great. It's, it's something you'll never regret. And, you know, frankly also, I think it's more fun. It opens and broadens your mind. It makes your work more interesting. Um You meet new people, you immerse yourself in different cultures, you form new friendships and you learn more and you know, in this global world of ours, business is so global, it's so international, it's multijurisdictional and you learn so much from how other people approach things. And, you know, I can think back John over the last several years, you know, since I started out many of the best friends that I've got in the law, apart from my dear friends in Reed Smith and in other major London law firms are foreign lawyers that I've worked with in different jurisdictions. And I've been very lucky to have traveled extensively on the work. I've done so far. So many people I've worked with as co-counsel and, or as opponents have remained and are really good friends. I've learned so much because there's this, it's very easy for people from the US, the UK from Europe to think that that is the way of doing things. It's definitely not. There is so much talent out there globally and so much to learn globally. So I would encourage people all the time and I would just say again, do it.

John: I love it. Simple, two words. Fantastic. So Gautam just another aspect of, of great leadership. We know that, you know, all of us have those days or weeks or months where we question why we're doing what we're doing, you know, that we may call it work life balance. But I kind of say it's relating to purpose. Um So how do you stay grounded and continue to persevere and, and, and accomplish everything you do, but maintaining that positive outlook on life you emanate from me, you're really one of the most positive people that, that I can think of. And so how do you really, you know, maintain that positive outlook on life despite all the challenges we face?

Gautam: Well, that's very nice of you to say John, it's humbling. It's truly humbling. I mean, I'd say, you know, in terms of what keeps me grounded. I mean, quite frankly, my wife and my Children keep me grounded. I'm very, you know, blessed to have a very what I see a very long suffering wife who's, who tolerates me and puts up with me, my three Children. Uh I've got two girls and I've got two daughters and a son who are 25, 23 almost and 17. And, you know, they certainly keep me grounded and focused because their lives are so varied and interesting. So that gives me a great buzz. And as you know, from earlier in this podcast, I've got four dogs, they certainly keep me grounded. I've also got two cats, uh, who are less demanding of me, but still, uh ensure they want my attention now and again. And as you know, John, I love my music. I love singing karaoke badly. Uh, what I make up, I mean, what I don't have in quality in karaoke, I certainly make up for, in enthusiasm, but I, I love my music and I, and I still love to DJ and do mixing of music and I really enjoy that. I love my vinyl records uh as well. I love, you know, collecting records and that sort of thing. So these are the sorts of things that keep me ground and give me a bit of a buzz and, you know, and I'll, you know, I'll, I'll finish where you mentioned at the top. One of the things you mentioned at the top. John, you and I have sung karaoke together and I'm convinced we'll sing more together.

John: Maybe in a couple of weeks we will. I didn't, I didn't know that you were a DJ. We should have a feature you sometime at some, some event. It's like, that's fantastic.

Gautam: I know. Yeah, I used to DJ as a student and the bug never left me. So when I was a student, I used to make extra money by DJ at the Student Union and, and, and if I told you back in the late eighties and in the early nineties, well, yeah, it was late eighties. I would make £20 for an evening of DJ-ing, £20 at that time for a student was a lot of money.

Iveliz: So Gautam, we've had such a wonderful and robust discussion here and, you know, I know that we're on time. So I want to know if there are any final thoughts that you want to share with our audience?

Gautam: Well, just to say, I mean, those who have listened to this podcast, I'm incredibly grateful to you for having put up with me expressing my thoughts. But I mean, but I mean, I would just say one thing in all seriousness, which is that. And I, and I said this at the top, I'm immensely in admiration of you and John for all you do with your team to push what we do in the in in the broad world of of a diversity, equality and inclusion. It makes me proud as a partner in the firm, as a leader in the firm, makes me very proud, makes me also very proud as a person of the global majority, which is the new expression I've learned from John, but it's just I would encourage everyone in the firm, and this is my last thought Iveliz, encourage everyone in the firm to be part of what we're trying to do because it really matters and it makes a big difference to what we are as a firm.

John: Absolutely. Gautam, undefined 00:33:50,229 --> 00:33:54,469 Thank you for coming in and sharing your powerful personal stories with our audience and then, and I'll, I'll see you in a couple of weeks.

Gautam: See you soon. All the best. Thank you.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producer is Ali McCardell. This podcast is available on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, Stitcher, PodBean, and reedsmith.com.

Disclaimer: This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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