329 – When Violence, Gangs, and Incarceration are Part of the Culture, Where Does Restoration Begin?, with Madeline Rodriguez

Ending Human Trafficking Podcast

Dr. Sandie Morgan is joined by her friend and colleague, Madelyn Rodriguez, as the two discuss the importance of restorative practices.

Madelyn Rodriguez

Madelyn Rodriguez is the Director of Programs at Project Kinship, where she leads and works alongside teams dedicated to supporting and training individuals impacted by incarceration, gangs, community violence, and trauma. She has a strong background in community intervention, clinical leadership, and restorative practices. Madelyn is passionate about providing culturally competent, community based, behavioral and mental health services.

Key Points

• Project Kinship aims to provide a sense of home and community for individuals impacted by incarceration, gangs, violence, and trauma. The organization’s approach fosters a judgment-free environment where individuals can feel safe to express their pain and experiences.
• To ensure an individual feels heard and supportive in their healing journey, it is important to use trauma-informed care. One aspect o fthis is empathic accuracy, which involves understanding and responding accurately to the emotional state of an individual.
• Restorative practices play a crucial role in addressing community violence and individual trauma. These practices focus on repairing relationships, building community, and cultivating leadership while maintaining the emotional safety of participants.
• Project Kinship engages with community partners and employs “live handoffs” rather than simple referrals, ensuring vulnerable individuals receive the support they need and foster meaningful connections to promote healing and stability.
• Consistent, supportive relationships and interventions can help facilitate healing and personal growth in both youth and adults. With dedication and the right support, healing is possible for those affected by trauma.

Resources

• Project Kinship
• International Institute for Restorative Practices
• Project AWARE
• 268: Rebuilding the Brain, with Dr. Anne Light
• Alternatives to Violence Project team
• Intraconnected by Dr. Daniel Siegel
• Neuro Sequential Model of Therapeutics

Transcript

Sandra Morgan 0:14
You’re listening to the Ending Human Trafficking Podcast. This is episode #329: When Violence, Gangs and Incarceration are Part of the Culture, Where Does Restoration Begin?, with Maddie Rodriguez. My name is Dr. Sandie Morgan, and this is a show where we empower you to study the issues, be a voice, and make a difference in ending human trafficking. I’m recording in my office at Vanguard University, and Madeline Rodriguez is in the office with me, I call her Maddie. She is a dear friend and respected colleague. She is the Director of Programs at Project Kinship, where she leads and works alongside teams dedicated to supporting and training individuals impacted by incarceration, gangs, community violence, and trauma. Maddie has a strong background in community intervention, clinical leadership, and restorative practices. She is passionate about providing culturally competent, community based, behavioral and mental health services. There is so much more to learn about Maddie, and we’re going to dive right into our conversation. Thank you so much for being here with me.

Madeline Rodriguez 1:46
Thank you for having me. Dr Morgan, it’s such a privilege and honor to be here with you this morning.

Sandra Morgan 1:51
How long have you been at Project Kinship?

Madeline Rodriguez 1:55
I’m going on four years. Four years at Project Kinship.

Sandra Morgan 1:59
I would love to know how your life has changed in four years of working in this community.

Madeline Rodriguez 2:12
Well, using some humor, I’d say I got my first gray hair.

Sandra Morgan 2:17
Oh, well, that’s kind of fun.

Madeline Rodriguez 2:20
But I’d like to think that it’s wisdom that now is being imparted to me, and now growing from within and out. No, it has been a phenomenal journey getting to this place and really embracing what we call at Project Kinship, the heartbeat of Project Kinship.

Sandra Morgan 2:41
I love walking into Project Kinship, the sense that for so many, this is home. Can you just explain what that means when you see that on the wall?

Madeline Rodriguez 2:56
Yeah. So for those of you that haven’t visited our office, we welcome you to come visit. We love having individuals come by to tour. But as Dr. Morgan is mentioning, we always say you get two welcomes when you come into the doors at Project Kinship. The first, we have a wonderful gentleman named Carlos, and he will greet you with a big old smile and say, “Welcome to Project Kinship, I’m glad you’re here,” and the second welcome is that quote on the wall that you’ll see. And Steve often tells a story of how he came up with that, because when we first received the building and knew that Project Kinship was going to be moving into that facility, Steve was nervous about putting a quote on the wall. He tells his story all the time. He spent eight hours, candles lit, eight hours of Mariah Carey on the background to try to help him with his Writer’s cramp. He ended up coming up with something to the effect of, “In your darkest hour, let hope be the light that sees you through.” He went the next day to the office, and was there with one of our community members and great friends, his name is Ruben. He asked Reuben about this quote and when he told Ruben the quote, he was like, “Oh, it’s okay.” He was like, I spent eight hours, Mariah Carey, candles lit, how is it just okay? And he said, “Well, if you have something to say, what would your words be on that wall?” Ruben said, “Well, I’m a lot more humble than you, so my words would not be on the wall, but if they were, it would say something like, ‘Welcome to Kinship, where judgment and pain are left at the door, you are home.'” Steve’s mouth dropped and said, “How did you come up with that in 20 seconds? I spent like eight hours trying to figure something out.” He goes, “Steve, it’s simple,” and he’s a very tall gentleman, tattoos on the face, “When I’m in the community, people look at me like they bit into a Sour Lemon. But when I come here, I feel like I’m at home. I’m not judged, I’m received, and I can leave my pain at the door.” That’s the welcome, and that’s the sentiment. When people see our brand, they see the logo, whether we’re in the community, behind glass at a facility, or at our home base, we want people to feel like they’re at home.

Sandra Morgan 5:12
I love it. I absolutely love it. And for my students, who have got to have the opportunity to be there, have partnered with you in schools, it is a life changing experience, because there is a certain amount of skill that is necessary to create that judge-free, and yet structured and safe community. We’re going to talk about that right now, with the hope that for many of our listeners, you’ll pick up some new vocabulary, you’ll find links to new resources, and begin to consider what does this look like in your community? Because this is necessary for every community, to have the kind of resource that Project Kinship has. So my first question is, how do you approach and integrate trauma informed care and mental health support, specifically for youth at risk of exploitation?

Madeline Rodriguez 6:31
Thank you for that question, Sandie, and it goes back to something that you just mentioned about, the skill sets that are required to create that environment. When you ask this question, the first thing that comes to mind is being still. When I say that, it means that oftentimes in the community service, social work field, we feel like we’re always making momentum or moving with, or journeying with, and often it’s forgotten that one of the key components in even starting is just being able to be still and stand with. Standing with individuals that are at the margins and those that are most impacted by trauma, violence, exploitation. This requires cultural humility. It requires empathic accuracy.

Sandra Morgan 7:25
What is empathic accuracy?

Madeline Rodriguez 7:28
Glad you asked. I’ve been doing a lot of research on empathic accuracy and coining this term. We know that it’s important to empathize with individuals, but I would like to say empathy is not enough. Empathy with accuracy, and accurate tracking, and standing and sitting with, is what’s required to mirror, model, shift with that person, to really attune and be with them. So, that empathic accuracy means I’m not only here sitting with this emotion and feeling, but I’m also making sure that how I’m presenting myself with you, with what you’re bringing into the room, is what you need in this moment.

Sandra Morgan 8:11
So the accuracy is measured in what way?

Madeline Rodriguez 8:18
How the individual feels when you are mirroring, modeling, tone of voice, body language. An individual, for example, I hear practitioners all the time say, “Yeah, I’m empathizing. I can really feel that emotion, but I didn’t know what to do with myself,” when they were saying or bringing that thing, that emotion or that situation in the space. That accuracy part is being able to hold, and yes, I’m empathizing with that person, I’m also being able to maneuver and knowing what to do with what’s being brought into the room.

Sandra Morgan 8:59
Okay, this takes me back to being a pediatric night charge nurse and being empathetic was part of the job. I mean children in pain, and in your case, we have young people who are in a great amount of pain, but it’s not going to help them if I burst into tears and can’t help them with the next step. So when I think about this concept of empathetic accuracy, I’m remembering how important it was for me to demonstrate that mirror and then model a safe and confident response to their pain. I can just give you lots of incidents where, when you show up and you have to give a child a shot, and they’re like screaming and everything, I learned how to be empathetic and at the same time, help them manage the fear, the anxiety, the pain, and dial it back so that it didn’t completely unhinge the situation. You’re going to have to send me some guided reading. Maybe we’ll put a link to something, because I think this is a great term.

Madeline Rodriguez 10:41
Absolutely, and you hit the nail on the head with those examples. That’s exactly what that would look like when we have youth that are coming in and sharing some of the deepest wounds of their own pain, oftentimes not even physical, emotional. For our staff, it’s being able to, just as you said, being able to sit with, feel it, but manage and again, attuned in a way that they can support that youth in an appropriate manner, to help them regulate and provide what’s needed for them to also put the lid back onto the container so that they can still continue forward with their day. We can’t move or shift what they’re bringing with them right now. What we can hope to do is help them hold, regulate, and allow them to know that there’s a safe place for them to contain that, and allow us to walk with them when they’re ready to walk.

Sandra Morgan 11:43
Okay. Can you explain about how you address the kinds of challenges that you encounter when you’re trying to create that trauma informed safe space?

Madeline Rodriguez 12:04
Yeah. So even when we talk about how we approach situations, how we approach our community members, it really is a comprehensive approach, and we have to look at all the different pieces that an individual is bringing with them. Because oftentimes, it’s not just one thing that’s happening. There is an array of different barriers or challenges. I am thinking of an incident with a young individual from one of our school sites, probably two years ago at this point. This individual initially was struggling on campus and was referred to the restorative practice specialists that they had at the school, only to find out that there were challenges that were going on at home with caregivers. There were challenges in the community of where this individual lived, a lot of violence that was happening. When you have this young person, we had a look at all of the different pieces. I think one of the other things that we’ll get to later on today is talking about that collaboration, and how imperative that other stakeholders and other community partners come in to wrap around the individuals that we’re working with as much as we provide. When we look at things comprehensively, we understand there are things that we can support, and then there’s things we need others to help us with, because to carry all of these other challenges that come with the one individual and their story, we need other champions to help support us, to really help the individual thrive.

Sandra Morgan 13:42
Okay, that’s so significant, because when I’m sitting in my office, I have a student here who has really high anxiety levels, isn’t able to go to class, some of those things. I’m looking at, how do I fix the situation right now? When I learn that they are not in a living situation that is safe and secure through no fault of their own, they are exposed to substance use, they’re exposed to violence, they are living in compromising housing where sleep is not easy. I mean, can you imagine trying to sleep when people are coming and going and you don’t know who the people are, and those are some of the situations that our students have. So I’m teaching my student a nice breathing exercise. Well, that doesn’t help them in the middle of the night, when they feel so afraid and unsafe. So we have to have partners. You mentioned restorative practice practitioner in the school. Let’s talk about restorative practice. Is this another phrase we need to define and figure out how to measure? I think I’m going to keep hitting on this idea, we can’t manage what we don’t measure. That’s an old, old adage. We need to understand what we’re measuring, but we have to have a way to do more than guess. We have to have a way to do more than be positive, optimistic, and carry this aspiration. We have to actually have some structure for what that’s going to look like,

Madeline Rodriguez 15:54
Absolutely. So restorative practices comes from a framework of restorative justice work, and it comes from the social sciences that really focuses on three main goals. And those goals include repairing relationships, building community, and helping shift mindsets by building leaders. It is a practice, and as we receive training on restorative practice, we are extremely grateful for the International Institute of Restorative Practices that does a phenomenal job in trainings nationwide, actually, to support individuals and understanding the fundamentals of what Is restorative practices, and how do we integrate this. Understanding that even previous generations, and even indigenous cultures showed how imperative it was to form a circle, to come together as a community, to share with one another, to maintain positive relationships, because it meant survival for that community, in those indigenous times. We have fallen apart as a society, as a community, by not being connected. Going back to even that first question that we talked about, the importance of standing with restorative practices allows us to form intentional moments with individuals, to be seen, to be heard, to be felt, to be reminded that they’re cared for. There’s something really profound with that consistency, that consistent touch point. I know that in other conversations, we’ve talked about the importance, especially with youth and individuals who are experiencing trauma, having that consistent touch point. And so as a practice, even at Project Kinship, whether we’re in a staff meeting, an interview, or a circle, we always start our meetings with our name, how we’re feeling, and then a question of getting to know you, in honor of the intention of helping individuals be able to verbalize what they’re bringing with them. But also, we have a great mentor and friend, his name is Reginald Washington, and he is the founder and CEO of Project AWARE in San Diego. Now he was a 16 year old facing a life sentence, and at his time it was in an adult facility, and he was in his four by four cell. He shares with us that even in that cell, he was still full of all the rage and anger that had led him there in the first place, and as he started to do his own internal work, he realized that in all of his journey, there was a lot of pain and no safe adult had ever stopped to ask him how he felt or what was happening. He talks about restorative practices as well, and leads with how important it is to help young people, individuals, to verbalize and have safe spaces to verbalize how they’re feeling. What restorative practices guides us to doing is creating spaces, building healthy relationships, enhancing awareness and education, promoting accountability and empowerment. So if I caused harm, I need to take responsibility for that and I need to repair with the individual whom I’ve caused harm to, providing support networks, addressing underlying issues, and really encouraging positive identity and purpose.

Sandra Morgan 19:34
I can’t help it, but I just keep going back to my identity as a pediatric nurse. Alot of the problems that children have when there’s no strong attachment is, and when we think about attachment theory, I think the most important aspect of attachment theory for people generally to know is that when a baby cries, someone comes and relieves whatever the situation is. Startling, a wet diaper, hunger, whatever somebody comes. When a child is raised in a situation where no one comes, then there is no relief from whatever the distress was. What you’re talking about now with restorative practices, actually looks like building a new pathway that someone is coming. When you said consistent, I am like, okay, so this is how we build attachment when it didn’t get built when it was supposed to get built. It is possible.

Madeline Rodriguez 20:57
It’s possible, it’s absolutely possible. Dr. Bruce Duncan Perry’s work, he leads the Neuro-Sequential Model of Therapeutics. I truly appreciate his breakdown of the different regions of the brain and what is literally happening in child and adolescent brain development, and how that ties with why it’s so critical to help young people, and even adults who didn’t have that, form new neurological pathways to heal and provide opportunities for them to respond versus react. Because from very early on, from infancy until they say age 25 is when our brain stops developing, when that’s happening, we’re absolutely operating from a higher survival state from infancy, and then the executive functioning is that lasts to grow. So if we’re looking at things and if individuals are constantly in a survival state, then that executive functioning is stunted in a way, if trauma, adversity, challenges, are exposed to that child, to that developing brain, an individual. Restorative practice is format, is a tool that allows us to stop, regulate, relate, so that these young people can then reason. And this follows that neuro sequential model that Dr. Bruce Duncan Perry talks about. How am I going to expect a young person, an adult that’s distressed reason if their behaviors and how they’re presenting, what their body is telling me is they are in a survival state and they are reacting. I need to first be still, help them regulate, relate. I’m making eye contact, I’m a safe adult here with you, I’m a safe person with you. Then we can sit and get to that reasoning when we’re thinking, and talking, and processing, what just happened, what was the trigger? Help me understand, and how do we move forward? That follows the 3 E’s of restorative practices as well. It talks about we would need to engage, we need to explain, and then we need to set an expectation, so past, present, future.

Sandra Morgan 21:52
And you do this like once a quarter with a kiddo?

Madeline Rodriguez 23:29
The circles?

Sandra Morgan 23:31
Yeah.

Madeline Rodriguez 23:31
So currently, with our youth transformation program, we’re actually doing circles every day. We have 14 units that we are in, and every unit gets a circle at least once a week. In our schools program, we’re in 39 campuses now, six different school districts. Some of our RP staff have circles running weekly. Some of them, again, may have it every other week, so depending on the climate, they’re really accurately attuning with their youth and what their needs are. Absolutely, we have circles running every week. And in our adult programs, we have circles almost every other day as well.

Sandra Morgan 24:19
I think that was my point in asking that question, this requires frequency. You can’t go to the gym once every quarter, every 90 days, and expect to build muscle. You have to go regularly.

Madeline Rodriguez 24:34
Yes.

Sandra Morgan 24:35
And that lack of attachment that is so critical to development, but it’s not going to be a one time shot. It’s going to take repetition to grow those new neurons. I love that our brain is plastic, and in the show notes we’ll add links to Dr. Anne Lights’ interviews, because I know there are people who are listening to this and they work in populations where there is violence, and gangs, and incarceration, and they’ve said to me, “Oh, Dr Morgan, you just have so much hope.” It’s like, no, I don’t think I’m unreasonable. I really believe that we are designed to heal. Just like if you get a wound, it begins to heal. It’s going leave a scar, but you’re designed to heal physically, and you are designed to heal mentally, emotionally, and this is going to take time, though. You don’t have a wound, and tomorrow you go to the doctor, they sew it up, you still have to go through the healing process. I love Dr. Anne Light, in one interview, told us that your body, which includes your brain, produces 1 billion new cells every day. Maddie, your body produces 1 billion, with a B.

Madeline Rodriguez 26:17
With a B.

Sandra Morgan 26:18
Yes, so we are not stuck with what we’ve got.

Madeline Rodriguez 26:22
We’re not.

Sandra Morgan 26:23
We can change, we can grow. So, all right, I’m going ask you another question, although you look poised. I love doing in-studio interviews instead of online, you look poised to tell me something, really wise.

Madeline Rodriguez 26:38
I was going to mention when you were mentioning individuals, I don’t know. They’ve maybe given up on individuals. They’ve lost hope because a certain individual is more challenging, or appears to have more challenges than others. It’s important to remember that when humans are in a need state, there’s a priority in helping them discover what is their need. We just finished a training with the Alternatives to Violence Project team, and they have some fundamentals, and I’m going to read some of their priorities in their circle of transforming power. Here they have listed you always want to expect the best, think before reacting, ask for a non-violent path, caring for others, and respect for self. We were going through this needs list. When a need is not met, then what is the emotion that’s paired with that? We talk about cognitive behavioral therapy, which asks us to look at how our thoughts impact how we feel, and how we feel impacts how we behave, and looking at that sequence of consequences that result, and helping individuals look at that part. So if I can help individuals change that narrative, oh my gosh. What is wrong with this person, to what happened? Help me understand, then we can get to the root of what’s the need? What is happening internally, at the root for this individual? And if we can shift our approach to say, “I can see that you’re frustrated, I can see this is not working. Help me understand what that need is, because I can see that there’s something and we need to get to that root.” When we do that, then we help stabilize individuals, where they’re feeling safe, they’re feeling secure, and then we see progress.

Sandra Morgan 26:55
Another really important aspect of this is the role of the community. I mean, they can’t live at Project Kinship. They have to go out, they have to work, go to school, services that are required because of their mental health that are challenging. How do we engage, and I’m thinking like I’m part of Project Kinship.

Madeline Rodriguez 29:19
You are.

Sandra Morgan 29:21
How do we engage the community? Okay, I’m back to night shift in the hospital in pediatrics. I have a baby that has been admitted for pneumonia three times this winter already, and every time, I spend a lot of time with mom, who is probably someone who needed to go to Project Kinship. I know that my kiddo is not going to be okay unless I engage with her and give her the tools she needs. But my baby keeps coming back, so I don’t know how I can change things. And the third time when it’s in ER, middle of the night, and her cap says it all. It says, “Party till you puke,” and I know that if the culture, the environment I’m discharging this baby to isn’t supporting all the therapy and care I’ve delivered, I’m not going to be successful. So give me some tips on how Project Kinship engages community collaboration, cultural humility. Tell me what to do please.

Madeline Rodriguez 30:49
You know, it’s interesting that you have that example. One of the things that we’ve learned from Father Greg and even Steve, Kim, our founder, they’ll always highlight this notion of serving and not saving. Because we often might feel obliged or responsible to save a life, to save this person, but as you mentioned, we can’t go home with community members, we can’t be with them 24/7. So we have to trust that, as Maya Angelou would say, “People forget what you did for them, but they’ll never forget how you made them feel.” The hope is that what we’ve provided and how we have made them feel in that moment will stay with them, so that one, when they go out into the community, back to their daily lives, and they’re doing all their other responsibilities, that they know there’s a safe place they can always come back to if there’s a challenge or there’s a disruption in the plan that maybe they have created with us, for themselves. When we talk about partnerships and collaboration, we’ve shifted our language from ‘warm handoffs’ to ‘live handoffs.’ The reason for that is for a lot of individuals, if we call and say, “Hey, we’ve got an appointment set up for you at this place and they’re going to take care of you.” Chances are, they might not find their way there, or chances are, maybe they make their way there but have a lot of anxiety or don’t feel comfortable, and end up leaving or not following through. But when we go with, some of our community members that say, “I don’t know, let’s go with you. Let’s make sure you get to that appointment. Let’s make sure we’re also consulting and collaborating with that other community partner so that you feel safe and welcome there too.” That increases our success rate with them following through, and then that collaboration with that other community partner enhances our work and ensures that continuity and consistency of care. I’m reminded of the story of the forest and how the forest, I learned recently and it was so beautiful, that in the center of a particular forest there’s this circle of trees. They call them the elder trees, or the motherhood trees, and these trees roots are the deepest and most expanse in the forest, and they end up creating this interconnected system of roots. I said, ‘Oh, my goodness, Lord of the Rings, had it right. These trees are talking to each other.’

Sandra Morgan 33:44
That’s right.

Madeline Rodriguez 33:46
And they send signals. These linchpin trees are responsible for sending signals, or receiving signals when one, another tree in the forest is sick, and they send nutrients to help nurture that tree. If there’s a new sapling growing, they’ll send nutrients to the new sapling to help it grow. And I said, ‘How fascinating that in nature itself, nature is showing us the importance of a community that is interconnected.’ Dr. Daniel Siegel, I have to give him credit in his phenomenal work, he has a book called Intraconnected. He talks about the science of me+we=mui. He says the self cannot be healthy unless I am also thinking of the other and taking care of those around me, because that means it enhances my wellness. Again, going back to restorative practices, it’s this fundamental principle that humans are hardwired to be connected. We receive hormones in proximity when we’re with each other that enhance and reduce cortisol. Hugs, I’m a believer in hugs. I prescribe hugs all the time.

Sandra Morgan 34:57
Yes.

Madeline Rodriguez 34:58
We need 12 hugs a day!

Sandra Morgan 35:01
Twelve?

Madeline Rodriguez 35:01
Twelve for optimal living, and the science is that we have the vagus nerve. When we hug and embrace each other, heart to heart, it stimulates that vagus nerve, and it actually releases oxytocin, which is that hormone that allows us to feel connected, and it also reduces stress. How beautiful is that? So there are these fundamentals of human connection, and I say all that to highlight again, yes, we do a great job at Project Kinship, and we are so grateful for the Dr. Morgan’s. We’re so grateful for Vanguard, we’re so grateful for all of these beacons of community partners that allow us to work together to optimize the whole person, care for the individuals that are coming through our doors.

Sandra Morgan 35:56
I want to kind of land back at the beginning of how I see a child. For me, an 18, 19, 20 year old still looks like a child to me, and wondering what happened that your sense of safety and security didn’t develop that attachment. Now listening to you, and this intervention of connection, someone sees me, someone is responding, it is going to take a while to believe that, to actually grow the neurons so that your response is in the context of ‘someone’s coming.’ If my car breaks down, I know someone’s coming. I’ve got a wonderful husband, two daughters, someone will come. I’ve got AAA. If you have nothing, and your whole life no one has come, it’s going to take a long time to trust and we cannot step in and say, “Well look, I’ve got this, this and this, choose that, and we’re done.” It’s a commitment to relationship,

Madeline Rodriguez 37:18
Absolutely, and as you said that I thought of a gentleman, may he rest in peace. We actually had a funeral recently for him, he was involved in a tragic car accident, thank you. This gentleman had worked with us for a while, he was a middle aged adult, and one of the things that he would say when he would come to the office, I always greet everyone, I would say, “Good morning. I’m so glad to see you. I’m so proud of you.” He would look at me and he would say, “Maddie, why are you so nice to me? I’m not a good person. I’ve done some really bad things in my life,” and I would look him in his eyes, and I’d give him a hug. I said, “Because you are worthy. Because you are doing the best you can, and you’re stepping into your purpose, and it’s important for you to know that you are worthy, that you are loved, that you are cared for, and there’s people that believe in you.” And he would say, “Thank you,” he’s like, “I haven’t had that very much in my life.” If he were here to tell his story, even though he was, again, being middle aged, his childhood was wrought of so much trauma, so much pain that he was still carrying with him as an adult. He was giving an opportunity for himself to work through finally, and he was always so grateful for the progress and for the healing that he was able to receive with the incredible work of the entire team and other community partners that wrapped around this individual. I’m reminded again, as much as we’re there to stand with people, we’re constantly reminded and gifted with that opportunity to also receive reminders of the importance of connection, the importance of compassion and love, and connectedness. Yes, we have these fancy strategies and evidence-based practices that we abide by, but at the principal foundation, if we do not start with just stopping and seeing people, then we’re doing it wrong.

Sandra Morgan 39:28
This week, my good friend Dick Foth was on campus, and he said there are two kinds of people in this world. There are people who say, “Here I am,” and there are people who say, “Ah, there you are.” Maddie Rodriguez, you are a ‘there you are’ person, and I’m so grateful for you.

Madeline Rodriguez 39:52
And so are you.

Sandra Morgan 39:54
I wish we had more time. I just love this conversation. Okay, tell us, how do we connect with Project Kinship?

Madeline Rodriguez 40:03
Yes. So we are very active on our social media. On Instagram, if you follow @projectkinship, you’ll find us, and we’re very lively on our social media there. Facebook, just projectkinship, LinkedIn projectkinship, or you can go to our website projectkinship.org. If you’d like to learn more about our programs and services they’re listed there. If you have a young person that might be in one of our school sites and you feel like you would like to have them refered to one of our staff, or if you have a young person that happens to be on probation or in juvenile custody, or an adult, an adult that has been formally incarcerated, all of that referral information can be found on our website. There’s a smart link, it’s just one smart link. You put in the information and it’ll help you navigate with putting in the appropriate information to get to the right program and service, and our team will do the rest.

Sandra Morgan 41:06
Wow okay, so we’re going to put links to the things you’ve talked about here in our show notes. I am just so grateful that you came today, and I want to assure our listeners that you will be back. Project Kinship has been part of Ensure Justice, partnering with us for years, and you’ll be back in March, right?

Madeline Rodriguez 41:31
Yes, absolutely, if you’ll have me.

Sandra Morgan 41:33
Oh, thank you. All right. Well, listeners, we’re inviting you to take the next step and go over to endinghumantrafficking.org to find the resources we’ve talked about here. If you haven’t visited the site before, take time and become a subscriber. I want to grow our podcast, so what I’d like to start asking you to do is, when you meet someone and you think, ‘Oh, I heard that on a podcast, invite them to be a subscriber.’ You can find us on Facebook and LinkedIn at endinghumantrafficking and of course, we’re going to be back in two weeks for our next conversation. Thank you so much, Maddie for being here.

Madeline Rodriguez 42:28
Thank you, Dr. Morgan for having me. It was a pleasure.