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A podcast for developers interested in building great software products. Every episode, Adam Wathan is joined by a guest to talk about everything from product design and user experience to unit testing and system administration.
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Developer Experience is a podcast brought to you by Algolia. We chat with guests who build products for developers about their developer experience strategy, what it means for them and why it’s important.
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The Undefined Podcast

Jared Palmer & Ken Wheeler

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The only engineering podcast with a 2 drink minimum! Full stack developers Jared Palmer and Ken Wheeler have peer-to-peer conversations with world-class engineers about software development.
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Ian is joined this week by Jack McDade, creator of Statamic, and a motley crew (John O'Nolan, Caleb Porzio, and Adam Wathan) to discuss what the future of Statamic might look like. Should the price change? Should it be open source? Who should it be marketed at? Does Statamic need an enterprise offering? All that & a ton more. Sponsored by LaraJobs …
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Ian and Aaron are joined this week by Caleb Porzio (friend of the show) on our very first live stream in honor of Flux, which Caleb literally launches live on the podcast. Plus everything from password hygiene to cloud exits to hiring people to, of course, all the ups & downs of launching a product like Flux. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.c…
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Ian is back (!) with Aaron to check in about what happened to Ian's gallbladder, Aaron's announcement video, dreaming big, and so much more. Sponsored by LaraJobs, Screencasting.com, and Mailcoach. Use code MOSTLYTECHNICAL to get 3 free months when signing up for Mailcoach. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.…
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Aaron is joined this week once again by Caleb Porzio to discuss everything that happened at Laracon (including a basketball game?!) before diving deep into Flux, the online reaction to the price, and what comes next. Sponsored by LaraJobs, Screencasting.com, and Mailcoach. Use code MOSTLYTECHNICAL to get 3 free months when signing up for MailCoach.…
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Aaron is joined this week by Caleb Porzio (back-to-back weeks!) and Daniel Coulbourne (first-time guest!) to dive deep into prep for Laracon, text editors, something called the "side eye verify", Aaron's recent blog post, and a whole lot more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://most…
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Aaron is joined this week by special guest Caleb Porzio (filling in for Ian) to talk about everything from solo parenting to Caleb's new project to rejuvenating Torchlight and a lot more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - Low Ene…
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Ian and Aaron check in about everything from tacos in NY to Twitter vs. Threads plus how Aaron found his next Linda, Aaron's new video series, & more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - Ian's Trying Obsidian (14:23) - Life OS Upda…
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Ian and Aaron talk about the investment that got away, why Try Hard is a media company, bringing back the forum, and an incredible idea for a new contest. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - Kubera (03:01) - Do It For The Content (…
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Ian and Aaron talk about Ian's new idea that's got him frazzled and on tilt, Aaron's sales milestone, the game Factorio, and a lot more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - I'm Very Tilted (13:19) - Know A Guy (19:31) - Course Upda…
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Ian & Aaron talk about Ian's adventures with hiring (and Ian unveils a blisteringly hot take), how Aaron's course performance, why Aaron needs a stage name (maybe), and a lot more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - The Long Weeke…
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Ian and Aaron check in the results of Aaron's course launch, talk about the new developer position that Ian just posted, dive into the benefits of "scheming time", and so much more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - Hat Guy (02:3…
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Ian & Aaron discuss the launch of Aaron's new course, a trip to Texas Hill Country, the idea of 'Profit First', and a whole lot more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - The Thumb System (02:18) - Sausage Fest (14:09) - Profit Firs…
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Ian & Aaron discuss Aaron's various small bets, why they're both so tired, the upcoming variety show 👀, & more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - Happy Fathers Day (05:45) - I'm So Tired (19:56) - Toughest Decade (24:33) - Long F…
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Ian and Aaron are joined by Dan Myers, CEO of Flair, for a very special episode about Aaron's HVAC system, Ian's feelings about batteries, why people like "treats in the feed", and more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - Welcome …
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Ian & Aaron discuss what's going on with Aaron's course and Ian's feistiness on Twitter before diving into what's going on with Aaron's HVAC system (seriously) and a lot more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - Getting Healthy (08…
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Ben and Adam Wathan cover the development and reimagining of Tailwind CSS, focusing on the release of Tailwind 4.0. They delve into the motivation behind the rewrite, the challenges faced, and the approach to maintaining backward compatibility. The conversation covers topics related to software versioning, open-source maintenance, backward compatib…
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How do founders of small bootstrapped companies hire new employees? Adam Wathan got over 1600 people who applied for two new roles at Tailwind Labs (a small team of six people). They ended up hiring two people, but neither of them actually applied. This wasn't how Adam expected (or hoped) this process would go. There were lots of surprising takeawa…
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Ian and Aaron are joined this week by Taylor Otwell, founder & CEO of Laravel, to discuss the Laravel vs. JS Twitter wars, new stuff coming down the road from Laravel, writing off Lambos (just kidding), and more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to lear…
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Ian & Aaron discuss Aaron's DHH interview, Ian's phishing fiasco, and are joined by special guest Sam Rose to talk about high effort content & a lot more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - A Rough Morning (08:26) - It's Crunch Ti…
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Ben and Matt discuss the role of a product engineer and Matt's journey as a content creator. Matt shares his experience working at a consulting agency and how it shaped his perspective on engineering. They also discuss the benefits of working in-person and the importance of the quality of coworkers. Matt reflects on his motivation for content creat…
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Adam just wrapped up a big hiring project at Tailwind Labs, adding both a new engineer and a new designer to the team. In this episode he talks through the process with Justin Jackson, founder of Transistor, to compare notes and record what worked, what didn't, and how he will approach hiring in the future after going through this process. Timestam…
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Ian & Aaron are joined this week by Dax & Adam Elmore to discuss the Laravel vs. JavaScript discourse, selling coffee over the command line, and a lot more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - Grownup Serious Stuff (08:02) - The Me…
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Ian & Aaron discuss Aaron's new SQLite course, identifiers in Laravel, New York City, and last but not least - socks. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:00) - The F Word (09:17) - New York City (Taylor's Version) (14:30) - Dallas Dallas…
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In this conversation, Ben and Derrick discuss the challenges of growing a business and the decision to target specific market segments. They explore the trade-offs between serving a broad audience and focusing on a niche market. They also discuss the technical choices and architectural decisions in building a product, with Derrick sharing his posit…
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Ian & Aaron discuss cheese boards, Aaron's lunch adventure, high performance database consulting, and the Drake vs. Kendrick Lamar beef with special guest Dave Hicking aka Producer Dave. Sponsored by Buttondown, LaraJobs, & Screencasting.com. Interested in sponsoring Mostly Technical? Head to https://mostlytechnical.com/sponsor to learn more. (00:0…
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Ian & Aaron discuss men's fashion, DHH, location sharing follow-up, AI therapy hot takes, Laravel Octane, upcoming course update, is MySQL over?, non-competes and concierge medicine, hacking Laravel for prefix indexes, PHP x NYC Sponsored by Buttondown, LaraJobs, & Screencasting.com. Menswear guy Art but make it sports DHH Monitor tweet Aaron's Lar…
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Ian & Aaron discuss HelpSpot's future, Aaron reveals his next course, the secret to building courses, the "edge", spouse GPS tracking, the Doordash tax. Sponsored by Laracasts, Buttondown, LaraJobs, & Screencasting.com. Send questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. HelpSpot Try Hard Studios Location sharing tweet…
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In this episode, Ben chats with Thorsten Ball. This conversation fits neatly into two halves - in the first, Ben and Thorsten go deep on how to differentiate yourself, work in public, and make it easy for people to hire you. In the second part of the conversation, they talk more specifically about Zed, why it matters, and how it’s being built. Link…
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Ian & Aaron return after a few weeks off to check in on Aaron's new business, his studio, and yes, his healthcare woes. Sponsored by Laracasts, Buttondown, LaraJobs, & Screencasting.com. Send questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. (00:00) - Chilipad Fixes All (01:40) - Eclipse Update (04:29) - I'm The Top of the Funnel (16:55) -…
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Ben interviews Andreas Kling, creator of SerenityOS and the Ladybird browser. They talk about the concept of lifestyle software and how it relates to the development of SerenityOS, Andreas’ vision of creating a Zen garden for developers, and the benefits of using a mono repo and a unified language in the development process. They also touch on the …
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Ian and Aaron are joined by Adam Wathan (our first returning guest!) to talk about Aaron's future plans for courses & consulting, Adam's plans for hiring at Tailwind, & a lot more. Sponsored by Laracasts, LaraJobs, & Screencasting.com. Send questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. (00:00) - The Interloper (01:49) - Hiring at Tailw…
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Ian & Aaron discuss Chilipad, the Aaron Francis Studio of Light and Sound, the week of calls, how to properly apply to a job, Shibboleth secret passwords, what's next for Aaron, the background on how Try Hard Studios came to be, and behind the scenes on the creation of their launch video. Sponsored by Laracasts, LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Send q…
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In this conversation, Fable and Ben dig deep on building a technical career that balances programming and company leadership. Fable shares their experience working at Stripe and the different roles they have held, including being a technical advisor to the CTO. They also discuss Fable's career move from being a hands-on programmer to role where les…
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Ian & Aaron discuss being laid off, what comes next for Aaron, why layoffs always go bad, good free tiers vs. bad free tiers, & more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Sent questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. (00:00) - We Don't Have Bosses (06:51) - Dune Part 2 Side Tangent (14:19) - The Main Character (26:13) - Thes…
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Ian & Aaron discuss config files in Laravel 11, having ambitious goals, the merits of checking vs. not checking your bag, & more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Sent questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. (00:00) - Open Some Emails, Kiss Some Babies (08:49) - Follow Up (20:31) - Even More Follow Up (26:08) - Checked …
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Ian & Aaron discuss morning people, PHP/Laravel origin stories, using ChatGPT to write blog posts, Diet Coke vs. Coke Zero, & more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Sent questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. (00:00) - Morning Guy (07:39) - Reachability Crisis (11:15) - You Need One More Set (17:21) - Follow Up (26:32)…
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In this episode, Ben interviews Josh Pigford, founder of Maybe.co, about the company’s journey from VC-backed startup -> closed startup -> open source project -> funded open source project. They discuss JavaScript and Rails trade-offs, the challenges of building a personal finance software, and the operational difficulties of building a business ba…
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Ian & Aaron discuss the joy of Diet Coke, Ian's deep dive into DTOs, Inertia vs. Livewire, & more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Sent questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. (00:00) - Totally Zonked (04:46) - Little A (09:31) - Feedback (18:38) - Even More Feedback (29:29) - Laracon US Tickets (30:52) - Blade + Livew…
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Ian & Aaron discuss everything from cryotherapy to the ugliness of most B2B apps to Aaron's first time doing meditation and a lot more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Sent questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. (00:00) - Super Bowl Update (03:05) - PlanetScale Pricing Update (05:21) - A Valuable Idea (09:28) - Ian's …
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A panel discussion on 37signals' first ONCE product, the launch of Campfire ("pay for it once, install it, and run it on your own server"). Ian Landsman, Tyler Tringas, and Justin Jackson share what they expected to happen before the launch, what did happen, and what it means for indie hackers and bootstrappers who want to launch SaaS companies. Is…
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In this conversation, Ben interviews Caleb Porzio, the creator of AlpineJS and Laravel Livewire. The discussion ranges from discussions about life in general to specific testing practices and which notebook Caleb uses. Links Tuple.app - The best app for pair programming AlpineJS Laravel Livewire Caleb's VSCode Course Takeaways Apply core truths to …
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Ian & Aaron give out their Super Bowl Predictions, recap the first wave of announcements from Laracon EU, & more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Sent questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. (00:00) - Hit You With Some Woo (21:55) - Wipe Conservationist (24:47) - Super Bowl Predictions (28:46) - Laravel 11 (37:26) - Yo…
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Ian & Aaron discuss getting sick, something called 'The Suburban Dad Zone', using gloves to change diapers (!?!), and more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Sent questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. (00:00) - We're Playing Doctor (11:32) - Back on Paternity Leave (16:18) - Down There in the Danger Zone (24:43) - Subu…
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Fast Company called Acquired "the #1 tech podcast sensation." I've been a huge fan of the show for years. So, I was surprised when they contacted me and wanted to switch to Transistor for podcast hosting! Since switching, they've had a breakout year. Their clips started showing up everywhere on my social media feed; they had chart-topping episodes …
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In this conversation, Ben interviews Taylor Otwell, the creator of Laravel. They discuss everything from the age-old argument of tabs vs. spaces to the origins of Laravel and how Taylor has turned it into a thriving, sustainable business. Links: Laravel, the framework Taylor created Tuple, used by the Laravel team to collaborates Takeaways Coding p…
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Ian & Aaron discuss the Laracon US announcement, going on ski vacations, route model bindings in Laravel, & more. Sponsored by LaraJobs & Screencasting.com. Sent questions or feedback to mostlytechnicalpodcast@gmail.com. (00:00) - Ski In, Ski Out (09:00) - Aaron's Problem Is Beach (14:59) - Mailbag & PlanetScale Studios Follow Up (27:48) - Laracon …
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37signals have talked a lot about how they build new features for existing products using Shape Up, where they carefully hammer the scope to avoid letting anything ever drag on for more than six weeks. But there's not a lot of information out there about how they approach new product development, where it can take over a year to actually get the fi…
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In this episode, Adam and Ben sit down to evaluate how things went in 2023 in their business and personal lives. The dudes share kind of a lot in this one! More personal flavor than usual. Lots about fitness, mental health, gathering, and rascally-ness. Timestamps (00:00) - Ben and Adam review 2023 (03:17) - Ben wants to be more of a rascal (07:58)…
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