Windy River Eco Farm

A Tiny Homestead

Today I'm talking with Tamara at Windy River Eco Farm.
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00:00
This is Mary Lewis at A Tiny Homestead. The podcast comprises entirely of conversations with homesteaders, cottage food producers, and crafters. A Tiny Homestead podcast is sponsored by Chelsea Green Publishing. If you're enjoying this podcast, please like, subscribe, share it with a friend, or leave a comment. Thank you. Today I'm talking with Tamara at the Windy River Eco Farm in Big Lake, Minnesota. Good morning, Tamara, how are you? Good morning. Big Lake, Minnesota, right? That is right.

00:29
Okay, you're about two hours northwest of me, I think. More north than west. Yeah, we're an hour from Minneapolis, half hour from St. Cloud. Yeah. Yeah, you're a little bit of a distant, but we're in the same state. Yeah. That's awesome. So tell me about what you do, Tamara. Well, at this point, I just do CSA shares, and they are all member choice. So I don't do boxes. I let them pick out their items by

00:59
I call it buffet style. And the only other thing I'm selling off of, outside of that is garlic. I started selling garlic off my website last year mostly for planting. And I've stopped selling at markets and I've stopped selling to the store and things like that. I don't sell anything off the farm. I just streamlined and just do CSA. But I also do, I'm a registered cottage food producer. And so I do.

01:29
Make various cottage foods that I offer with the CSA as well, and I do sometimes sell those locally if I can So that is what I'm doing. I do work, you know minor part-time job And then the CSA I have I have enough I grow one acre and in that I could do 45 to 50 families a week at the best Yeah, you know in my best shape and the garden's best shape with the most members I can get

01:58
Um, but right now I just have, I think only about 25 this year per week. It's a little bit down. So, Well, I'm very impressed that you managed to have produce for that many people this year after the freaking spring we just had. It actually didn't affect me very much because, um, we are in the sand and I like that and so I had no problems at all this spring with the, um,

02:25
with the extra amount of rain that we've had. It's been really nice actually. Well, you are lucky because we are not doing so great here. We decided last winter that we weren't going to offer a CSA this year, we have for the last three years. And I'm really glad we didn't offer it because we would have had nothing to give anyone until probably two weeks from now. That's a real, real bad way to run a CSA. Yeah, that would be. Yeah.

02:54
I know I have heard a lot of that. I grew up with my grandma's farm and where my dad farmed. It was in the clay out in Eastern Minnesota and there was always a tractor getting stuck or you can't get into this field or whatever. And I ended up settling in the Monticello area between Monticello and Big Lake for the last 30, 40 years. And it's sandy here

03:24
you know, there's some problems with that, but I like it. And so when we were moving to our own land, I decided definitely to stick with the sand and it definitely has problems, but I don't have to worry about a wet year or a wet spring. And I can get in as soon as the snow melts, I can start planting. The perennials are very, very slow, but it does have its advantages on a wet season. Yeah, yep, absolutely.

03:53
Your produce looks amazing. I was looking through the pictures on your Facebook page and I was like, I'm so jealous. I want to go visit her just to see some really nice produce. Thank you. But I'm sure that if you visited for real, you'd see a lot of bad things because, yeah, you always take pictures of the good things. And I always say to, I have really small hands. I'm not a very big person. And so when you have small hands, your produce always photographs really well and it looks huge. So that's like a little trick. But yeah, I.

04:22
I mean, some things do well and I have a lot of experience now, but there's always good and bad things. I think people need to recognize that there's good and bad out there. And any day you're going to see something good and you're going to see something that makes you happy and then something that on the next bed over even that makes you sad and depressed because it doesn't look very good and you wonder why. And then you'll feel like you really know what you're doing and then five minutes later you'll feel like you really don't know what you're doing.

04:52
That is farming. It sure is. Preach into the choir here, ma'am. That's how it works. So what's the origin story for your place? How did you end up doing this? Well, like I said, I grew up farming with my grandma. And even though I was pretty young by the time she was very old and started to retire, it was just in my DNA. And so I started vegetable gardening pretty seriously in my 20s.

05:19
but lived in town, you know, in the small town we're in. And just, I would see like fields freshly disc and I would like just get this urge, like I just have to plant. But it wasn't just like, most people just want to plant, but not necessarily market. But I had this, you know, thing I had grown up, you know, growing and selling, and it just became this need. And I started looking for land to rent about, you know, 2006,

05:49
because I still lived in town and my husband didn't really want to move. And it was difficult to find anything, but I just wanted more land. I wanted to go to market. And so in 2008, I just ended up connecting with the right person because it was really hard to connect with anyone who had land. And I started renting then in 2008, 50 by a hundred feet, which was way bigger than what I had been growing in my little yard, you know, but.

06:16
And I still kind of knew what I was doing. And then from there, I started at Market the next year. And then I started at CSA with CSA shares in 2010. I started with six people. So this is my 15th year of CSA. And I did Market for about nine years with the goal of just doing CSA because I felt that was a better fit for me. And then we moved to our present land in 2015. My husband finally decided to go ahead and move. And we ended up with a little bit different

06:46
had dreamed about a little bit more of a traditional farm, but that really isn't available in my area. To get that, you have to go north half an hour or so. And I wanted to continue to have CSA pick up on the farm. And even moving, I moved, it was about eight or nine miles from the land I had been renting, and I even lost members in that, that they didn't wanna go that little bit further, so.

07:14
I was glad I didn't go a half an hour further to where there's agricultural land. But so I say that we are on an urban farm in the country, which is kind of silly, but that kind of describes what I have set up. We're on a county road, but it's like a little bit of like a loop development with maybe 30 homes. And we have just under three acres total, and I have one acre fenced in with a quite proper deer fence.

07:43
And then outside of that, I have additional flowers and different things like that. But mainly that one acre I farm very intensively most years. This year I actually have a third of an acre in cover crop, which is the first time I've ever really taken any part out because I always try to have just any more footage I can do. I always try to grow in. And this year I decided to just cut back, for my own like body's sake, I think.

08:10
a little bit and put some in cover crop. The weeds just took over last year really bad. And so in that I have flowers and all the veggies that you pretty much can grow and then fruit trees and blueberry bushes and raspberry bushes and things like that. So I have all the different crops just in a small amount. I like growing all the different things, but I think someday I might need to start specializing in whatever, I don't know what it's gonna be yet.

08:39
but bringing that down, because a lot of people don't grow like everything and do everything like I do. And I've done that when I went to market, I would bring everything and nobody else did that by themselves. And it was just crazy. I was just always over done, overstressed, couldn't set up on time. And I always had baked goods, canned goods. I would sell seeds, I would sell dried seasoning mixes. And then all the veggies, flour arrangements,

09:09
everything. So I'm still kind of doing all that because I like it, but just in a smaller, easier way and in my own backyard instead of rented land. So I'm happy with that. Wow. Okay. That is a, that's a hell of an origin story. I love that. Okay. So what are you using for a cover crop on the third of the acre? Right now I have two parts of it are in,

09:36
clover and winter red clover and winter rye, because I already have that seed available. And then I do have one little section tarped with occultation tarps. I think it's how you say that. And then I have one section that I've had to till a couple of times and I'm gonna be sowing buckwheat next week and then I'm gonna let that go for a little while and then do red clover and winter rye. I think red clover can be good.

10:05
It's cheaper than some of the other clovers. So I tend to use that if it's not gonna be something forever. But if you do wanna put something in a longer amount of time, that's like a lower growing thing, then I would get white clover, which I have in some places as well. I have white clover. I have a lot of bunnies and I have a lot of bunnies eating a lot of white clover on my property. And so that's everywhere too. Okay.

10:32
Since you said bunnies, I was sitting out on the porch a little bit ago and looked out the window and there was a chipmunk on our cement pad in front of our door. First chipmunk I've seen here since we moved in four years ago. Are your trees getting bigger? No. Yeah, we don't have trees like anywhere really on our property. That was hard to find. That was what we were looking for when we...

10:58
purchased in 2015 was like something open and flat and we finally found one. But everything else has trees around us. So we very rarely see like a squirrel or chipmunk venture into our area, but they will every so often like a little ways and then run back. So we don't have trees, but definitely the bunnies are not afraid at all and they are all over the place. I got the deer out of the garden, but now I have a bunny problem.

11:23
Yeah, we have bunnies too. And this year they're not a problem because there's not a whole lot for them to get into because our garden is not not packed full because of the rain. But the chipmunk probably won't last long because we have three barn cats. I'm sure they will they will dispatch him or her pretty quickly. Yep. Um, okay. So I have two things I want to ask you about. First one is garlic. Are you growing the hard neck variety garlic?

11:50
I have actually 48 varieties of garlic this year. Wow. And I would say most are hard neck and then I have a few soft necks. So I was growing garlic pretty heavily back in 2010 and I was really getting somewhere with it. And then I think it was 2011 but it might have been 2012 that Astor's Yellow's disease came through the Midwest and hit every garlic grower.

12:19
and it brought everybody back to the beginning. And so before that, I had some really nice softnecks that I would braid and sell at market and different things. And there's one variety of softneck garlic that I grew back then that I cannot locate anywhere in the world anymore. I've been asking other growers for it and stuff because it did well before that, Aster's Yellows. But since then anyway, I've started up again and a couple times.

12:48
And now I finally, I did put in, I think, 2400 garlic cloves last year and 48 varieties. So mostly hardneck. Some of the softnecks that I grow, I might take out of circulation because they didn't get very big, but some did really well. You know, in Minnesota, I think you have to go with, you know, what grows well. Some of them just, you just got to take out if they don't do well. So I will be putting.

13:17
probably at least half of those varieties on my website for sale once I get everything cleaned up and organized and, you know, towards the fall. Okay. The reason I asked is I just talked to a lady who lives in New York, I think, the other day for an interview, and her predominant cash crop is garlic. And I was like, I need to pick your brain because I've been trying to grow garlic for three years and it's been a fail every year. And she said,

13:44
you're in a cold environment like I am. And I said, yes, Minnesota is definitely cold. And she said, hardnecks. She said, you can try doing the softnecks, but hardnecks are the ones that will do better. And then she told me all about garlic, and it was really fun. So I don't really want to get too deep into garlic because I just did this the other day. But I was just curious since you're actually in my state and not far away, which kind you were doing. Garlic grows really well in Minnesota if you get the right kinds, but it doesn't like too heavy of soil.

14:14
I know the farmer friends that I have that are another CSA farm around here that are north of me, they cannot grow it at all. It rots in their heavy soil. But next week is the Minnesota Garlic Festival and I recommend you go there and you can buy garlic to plant and really there's so much information there. It's wonderful. I applied to sell there for the first time this year and I am like sixth.

14:42
in the waiting list to sell. So maybe next year, but we will be going next year, next week to shop. And it's wonderful. So definitely check it out. John, where is it? It's in Hutchinson. Okay. All right. Probably won't be going because we have some stuff going on here. But if it doesn't like heavy soil, then if we were to add like sand or peat moss or something to our soil, would it maybe help?

15:11
Yeah, I would say a lot of people do a raised bed then. It does well in raised beds, where you could get some lighter soils in. I know if you have clay soil and you add sand, I've heard that you just get pottery, so I can't recommend sand, but chopped up composty things, adding that organic matter. But definitely put in a raised bed and try it out. Once you start growing it.

15:39
you know, it multiplies to the point that, you know, you can, you don't have to start with a lot. You can keep growing, keep multiplying it every year. So I would say, you know, try one raised bed and see what happens. Yeah, we have some, we have some boxes that we use for raised beds for potatoes, and the potatoes did really well in the raised bed. So I'm assuming garlic would probably do really well too. So yeah, thank you. That would help.

16:06
Okay, and then my next question, once I deal with the Windows security thing, it just popped up on my screen. Um, uh, the, the, the way, the model that you use for your CS they were people choose what they want, how difficult was that to set up and does it, does it work really well? I mean, I'm assuming it works really well for you, but how does that work? It has, it's good points and bad points for sure. And I could talk.

16:33
for a while on that if anybody ever wants details. But for me, I never wanted to have a box, normal box CSA. I wouldn't want that as a customer. And so I knew starting back in 2010 that I didn't want to do it that way. I did pack up people's boxes. Well, I did a cooler for them right away from the beginning. But I would have them fill out a taste questionnaire.

17:02
decide what they were gonna get and I'd pack up each person's cooler individually. And so that took a lot of time. So then I transferred over at some point to doing 50% bagged and it would be just kind of your normal things. And then they'd get to choose 50% off, you know, like table set up. And that, everybody liked that. They loved when they contacted me and I said they got to choose 50%.

17:29
that definitely made them more interested than a farm where you just get the box. But for me, I've just always been kind of too obsessed with the dollar value of everything and trying to keep their choices even. And so I think for some extent, I was probably had some ways I could have done it that I do now that I was like, oh no, I gotta keep track of the value and make sure everybody has the same value.

17:57
And I do think that the dollar value of your share is really important. I don't go just by size like some people do. But so what I do gradually then I went to 100% member choice and I was setting up like half of the booth I would set up in like the more expensive, like $5 items. And then the other half would be like the $3 items. And sometimes to get to that dollar amount, I would put two things together, or I would put like.

18:27
like kits, like I would have like a salad kit or whatever, but then I would tell them how many to choose from the one side and the other side. And I started to realize that, you know, value is so relative. I think if you want something, the value, you know, it goes up. For instance, like my husband doesn't buy groceries, but if he buys something, if he really wants it, if he wants like, if he saw a big, giant onion.

18:55
he would spend five bucks on it easy. To him, that would be the value, it would be no problem. So value is so relative. So I decided a couple years ago to just put everything out and kind of average it out to, in my head, maybe like $4-ish value and just let people choose what they want so they just choose. I just set it up now by heaviest to lightest or most fragile, basically.

19:21
And they can choose a share that's either six item size or nine item size. And they can choose every week or every other week. So that's four different sizes. So it's very customizable. And then from there, they get to choose anything they want off of all the veggies. And then I do put the cottage foods there, at least most of the year, once we get to the heavy veggie time of year, there's no room for that. But so they get to choose. So because I'm picking everything,

19:49
It's not to order, you know, so I don't get like a spreadsheet and say I need to pick five of this and 20 of this and whatever. I have to kind of guess what they're going to want. And because of that, there's more waste. I do have three CSA days, Tuesdays and Thursdays are more your normal, you know, sign up for the season CSA. And then on Fridays, I have a program where people can sign up $100 and they can pick three weeks to come.

20:18
And then they don't have to pay another $100 for another three weeks, but they can choose whatever weeks they want to come and then they come and choose the main items. So I have that Friday that, you know, anything that's really extra that I've picked through the week, I can try to, you know, not have too much surplus then at the end of the week. But I do have a member with pigs and I give her the surplus of, you know, anything from last week that.

20:47
was left over because I picked too much and the members didn't want it. But I never know what they're going to want really. But over the years you start to get a much, you know, you get much wiser and you start to see what they want. And I think each group, to some extent, I start to say, oh, this group really likes this, I'll put up more of this. And there's always things that surprise me a little bit that people will take, you know, something more or less than I thought. But like I said, this is my 15th season.

21:17
So I'm pretty used to how much they want of things. And I try to reduce or increase every season according to what I saw. It's like, for instance, you know, I'll only put out like three bunches of kohlrabi. And even that last year, they weren't taking like at all. So this year I didn't put in any kohlrabi until a fall crop because they're so beautiful in the fall. And so I've cut that back.

21:45
you know, and other things I've increased. I put in a lot of, like, berries, a lot of fruit, a lot of potatoes. And just kind of monkey with that a little bit and, you know, hope everybody's happy. And I think that they definitely, they definitely appreciate the member choice. I think there's still the inherent problems of CSA, of logistics, of them picking up and, you know, making sure that their life is scheduled enough to.

22:16
pick up on the day they're supposed to pick up. And still just eating. I think people have gone back to eating out at restaurants a lot and maybe eating less at home again. And so I think there's some of that word that even though they're choosing what they want, there might be some waste. But I definitely recommend the member choice CSA to farmers because I just think that, like I said, I would want that. And so I want to sell.

22:45
you know, what I would choose and what I can be really happy and proud of. And so I try to run my CSA so that I can be really, every week, be really proud of what I've put out for them. And I think they like that. Okay. So are you there when they pick out what they want? I'm around. I can't just like stand there, but at the Thursday, so Tuesdays they pick up three to nine.

23:12
It's my, you know, in my backyard, we have a gazebo set up and I put it under there. Um, and I usually like set it up. It's three o'clock. It starts. I have to go and take a break finally, you know, um, and then I might go out, you know, see some people, but I'm not there for, you know, seeing all of them. I don't have to like watch what they take. I've never had problems, um, where, you know, there was any dishonesty or anything like that. And then in the Thursday. Share.

23:41
That one's actually in the closest suburb to Minneapolis at a clinic. And I am there because, you know, I don't have anywhere else to go. So I'm either sitting in my truck or sitting, you know, by the, by the tables or whatever. But I don't have to, you know, supervise them in any way, just, you know, just talk. And I tell them what to do in the spring and some people still, you know, have a hard time with it and some people take to it right away.

24:09
And then on Friday, I set the shares out again. I don't I don't stand there or anything. So it is for me It's the most streamlined because my issues over this last, you know, the 17 years have it's always been time I never have enough time I don't have any employees or anything. So I do this because it is the most streamlined and time efficient way to go Sure. I was just curious if you mean it if you

24:38
caught any commentary when people show up and see the gorgeous produce and you know are they like oh this is great or oh look at this beautiful pepper or you know. Oh yeah I hear a lot of that. Yeah I hear plenty of that. Yeah and I need that I'm not somebody who's overconfident. I have I have some members who are extremely into it and you know they they have a lot of compliments to make.

25:07
especially, yeah, there's a couple that really like to do that. And I used to always put out a survey, you know, like an anonymous survey monkey survey, like many CSA farmers do that. And, you know, did it for many years. I kind of quit at one point because the comments were kind of the same every year and I wasn't really getting any intel, but...

25:31
But this last year, I actually had quite a number of members not return. And I think it's just the way things are right now. I really don't think there was anything that scared them off as a group. But I had probably just 50% return this year. And it was a little bit hard to take. And so I might start doing a survey again just to see if there is something I'm missing and if there is any kind of new intel, new needs people have.

26:01
I mean, times change and people change. And I've noticed a big difference in the age of people and how they kind of react to the CSA. The youngest groups, the 20 somethings just really don't get the idea of that they are trying to support a farm. They don't get that idea of sustaining a farm and that we need your support to keep going. And that...

26:29
of subscribing to something, they just really don't get that idea. So I've had, I try to kind of, you know, I get somebody interested and then they just peter out, they just don't get it. So I think I might start doing surveys again and try to kind of get the intel on everybody and what I can do to make sure I keep them happy and keep them signing up.

26:55
Absolutely. Any information you can get to make your business better is a good thing. So a couple things. We didn't have as many people sign up two springs ago. And I chalked it up to the fact that inflation had been growing and that people just didn't have the outlay money for the investment for the summer for RCSA. And I...

27:22
We just decided this year that we would just sell whatever we managed to eke out of the garden at the farmers market because the farmers market is like three and a half miles from us. We load up the truck, we drive down, set up the tent, set up the tables and people buy stuff. And my husband is the one that does it and he's so social. He really does enjoy it. His return is not only the money he makes, but the social interaction that he gets with just everyday people from our community. He loves it.

27:51
And then the other thing I was going to mention is he decided last fall that he was going to only grow the things that really sell because for the last three summers, he has grown as much as he possibly can. He was growing broccoli and cauliflower and green beans and peas and all the things. And broccoli and cauliflower don't sell that well. And I love broccoli and cauliflower. I'm sad that they don't sell well.

28:21
Tomatoes sell like hotcakes if you have them and if you have lots of them because people want to can and Okay, you can sell cucumbers sell it crazy green beans sell it crazy So he said to me last I don't know probably October November He was like I think I'm just gonna cut back to like four or five different things and just grow more of that Mm-hmm, and it's his baby. He loves it. It's his job. He loves gardening and I was like honey

28:49
do whatever you want to do. It's your baby, it's your garden, and you're the one who has your finger on the pulse of what's selling because you're the one selling it at the farmers' market. So that was the grand plan for this year. And then it rained and we have really, really loamy black soil and everything flooded and everything stalled out. And my husband and my son actually just picked like 12 cucumbers last night all at the same time.

29:18
We've gotten like two, three weeks ago and two, two weeks ago. So having 10 or 12 cucumbers all at once is like a major win for right now.

29:30
Yeah, a couple of things that I think, I think I really recommend people to do farmers market before they would do a CSA for sure, to know what people want and how much they want of it and to really get that interaction. I think that they very much complement each other. And I did both from 2010 to 2017. I did both. And what's nice about that is

29:56
then you don't have to oversell your CSA shares to try to make a certain amount of money, which is a big problem with farming. And so because you have that market to back it up, but if you don't have quite enough, you don't have to bring it to market and you do get that instant feedback on people. But every market is very different and more of the rural markets like my area, it's, you know, it's a commuter area, but it's kind of more of the rural mindset.

30:24
didn't sell tomatoes very well. And that was because everybody has them in their yard or their neighbor has them. And people's, the biggest competition in my area is everybody's home gardens. And that's where I actually lose members to, I'm gonna have a garden this year. And I don't know why they're quitting, but then they contact me to buy plants and then I'm like, oh, okay. And they do a lot of that. So it really depends.

30:51
you know, in your area, I think in the more in metro areas, it seems like tomatoes sell. Of course, I didn't grow canners. So I grew like, grow heirlooms and people were not really looking, and they didn't want to change. But everything, you know, it depends. And that's why you do have to tweak. But on that idea of specializing, you know, I really would like to do that at some point when I can. I know I listened to a podcast several years ago, and there was a farmer that did.

31:21
garlic, carrots, and peppers. And I thought that was a great combination. They're all different family groups and they're different seasons. And I thought, oh, that sounds great. That works really well for him. And I wish I could look into the future somehow and see what things I should specialize in. And you can't, but I have.

31:46
cut out, you know, like I used to grow pickling cukes and it was such a pain in the butt to deal with people wanting a bushel as cheap as they could get. The plants were dying and you have to pick these itsy bitsy things like, you know, every other day. And then everybody wants their bushel on the same week. And then this other week that you've got it, nobody wants something else. So I cut out a lot of that kind of thing. Like I don't do canning tomatoes. I don't do pickling cubes. You know, I don't.

32:14
grow beans in excess because it just did not make sense to do those things. I was still selling heirloom tomatoes to the grocery store, which was a good extra money. But I cut that out too. I think it's nice to at least say to the CSA members, I'm just growing for you, so you are my priority and everything. But it took years of monkeying around with everything, with growing and selling at market.

32:44
and all of that to kind of get to this point. But you do really have to, you know, let the intel, let the data, let the sales decide what you're gonna do and not be too sentimental about growing certain things. And I think I'm pretty good with that, but I do like, I kind of like the idea of growing, you know, a lot of different, I enjoy, you know, eating, the things I enjoy eating, you know, I wanna keep growing.

33:12
But I do cut way back on some of that stuff though, especially if it doesn't grow well. If it's like something that is hard to grow and isn't very popular, then of course why would you continue to grow it? Yes, I had to make my husband stop trying to grow Brussels sprouts because we tried and tried and tried and they just didn't do well. It didn't matter what conditions we grew them in. They just did not wanna grow for us.

33:39
He said to me last fall, he said, do you want me to plant Brussels sprouts for you? And I'm like, no, no, I don't. And he said, why? And I said, because they don't produce sprouts. They grow beautiful, big plants, but they just don't grow the edible part that I want. And he was like, we can try again. And it's only, you know, this much for the seeds. And I was like, no, because I get so excited when I see those little tiny sprouts start and then they never turn in the sprouts.

34:07
So no, don't, don't, please just don't anymore grow Brussels sprouts or try to. And he was like, okay. And the dumbest thing is back many years ago, we planted some in the winter sowing milk jug thing. And we had like four plants come up that looked really good in the jug. And so when it was time to get them in the ground, we got them in the ground.

34:34
And basically they were like a weed. We just put them over by the rose bushes and they grew. And we had the most beautiful Brussels sprouts that one year. And I was like, Oh, that was really easy. You just treat them like a weed. No, it doesn't matter what we do. We can, we can be the kindest growers ever to our Brussels sprouts. We can be the most negligent growers to Brussels sprouts and they will never produce me a sprout that I can eat. So we have given up on sprouts right now. There are some things that.

35:04
They don't like to grow in a group. Like as a thing you're trying, like an actual crop. Like for me, I've struggled with Napa cabbage to some extent because it doesn't really like to grow with other Napa cabbages. It just likes to, if you have like an accidental one with your other stuff, then it will grow into this thing that's like picture perfect. But if you try to grow a whole bed of them, they don't do well. I actually have one.

35:33
one Brussels sprout that survived winter that is growing in my cover crop and I just mow around it because I want to see what happens. Because I usually don't get, I usually get like small sprouts and then the disease starts to kind of hit them and they start to rot a little bit. So I definitely buy in sprouts most of the time. But it's a tough one because it's got so much plant, it's like corn where it's got so much plant but you don't get a whole lot out of it.

36:00
It's just like a lot of compost that you get. You're just growing compost because there's so much plant matter that comes out of your soil. For me with sandy soil, I have to kind of think about, you know, how many nutrients am I taking out growing this thing? And that's why I like don't grow celery. That takes so much nutrients out and then nobody wants it anyway, you know? But some of those things are really tough to grow in soil that's not absolutely perfect.

36:30
Yes. And I was going to, I was going to say like three minutes ago, we got talking about sprouts and celery and sandy soil. Um, when you are growing produce, I feel like there's a lot of dancing and pivoting that happens because you, you may start out thinking, okay, I'm going to grow this 50 by 50 plot.

36:53
and your recording stopped it says. Um, I just got a call from my husband. Yeah, that's okay. Don't worry about it. I think, I think we're okay. Good. I was seeing the time change here on the phone. So, yeah, I think you're good. Okay. So anyway, you can have a plan to grow a 50 foot by 50 foot garden, and you're going to plant these specific things and you're going to take good care of it. And it's going to produce what you want it to produce.

37:23
And then you discover that maybe some of those things you're trying to grow aren't really suitable for your soil isn't good for it or whatever. And then you find out that, I don't know, everybody loves cherry tomatoes. So you're like, great, I'm going to grow half the garden in cherry tomatoes because people want them. And then the following year, nobody's really interested in cherry tomatoes. So it's a lot of guessing, planning.

37:53
and trying to take into account what you do know versus what you can't know. And so it's, if you love DeGarden, it is totally worth doing. If you love trying to help your community, it is totally worth doing. But if you're not really into it, you will get down about it real quick. I also want to throw in there, if you really need to make money and you're really, you're doing this to actually pay your bills.

38:21
you're going to be in a lot of trouble with that kind of situation. Yes. Yes. I think, you know, it ends up being people who have a spouse that pays the bills that end up sticking with farming. The people that have had the toughest situation is like, I knew a guy at market that was single and so he had to pay the mortgage and then he had bought all the equipment and he was running a big hundreds of members of CSA.

38:47
And then he was trying to, you know, for money, then he was, you know, mooring, Tommy was trying to go to like all the markets every day. And he would have, you know, maybe a hard, like hard spring like this year. And, um, and the members would get mad because they'd have small baskets, but then they'd see stuff at market that he didn't have enough of to put in the baskets or CSA, and he had a certain amount of money he needed to make to pay all those bills himself, and he couldn't keep going.

39:17
where, you know, me and then the guy next to me at Market, we had spouses that were really subsidizing us basically, and paying the bills. And so we could keep going. But, you know, we didn't really have any different situation from this guy. He was he was good at it and everything. He just he had to pay everything off. And that is what I've seen across the country with CSA is especially because people are paying ahead. And they say, okay, to

39:44
pay all my bills, I need to sell this many CSA shares, but then they can't fill that many CSA shares. And they have so much equipment that they maybe could do without the refrigerated van and things like that, you know, and, you know, the barrel washer and the green spinners and just all that kind of stuff. And so, but all of that is, is, you know, being paid for. And so then they oversell their CSA shares and they can't fill them. And so you really

40:14
to think about, you know, if you're gonna get started in it, do you have to make money? And how much can you really produce? And I just never, ever recommend it unless somebody's like me where they just couldn't not do it. They just have to do it, or they already have the land, or they already have, you know, a spouse that's, you know, paying the bills. Cause otherwise it just, it's not really, you know, it's like, there is an old joke that if you wanna make a million dollars farming, you start with $2 million.

40:44
lame joke, but it is really, it's really kind of sadly true unless you have, you know, if the commercial, in my area, the only farmers there are around anymore, there are no cattle or dairy farmers really in this area. It's all big potato farms and they do potatoes, corn and soy. And of course corn and soy subsidized and they have thousands of acres and it's just a whole different kind of agriculture. You know, they're not.

41:11
it's not even the same as somebody who's growing a vegetable farm. And that kind of thing, I believe, is making money. I guess I don't know because I don't do it. But otherwise, it gets tough. So I just, you know, if somebody says to me, you know, what do you recommend for the new farmer? I'd be like, well, don't do it unless you have these situations. And I think that the what they call the rock star farmers out there that are teaching

41:41
And there's a few names I could drop, but I don't want to pinpoint anybody. But those farmers that teach and they make a lot of money, you know, teaching, writing books, and they're telling everybody to do it because you can make tens of thousands of dollars, you know, selling kale and stuff. They're all in an urban market where they have a very good clientele base. But just.

42:05
they're telling people to start doing that all across North America. And it's just not a responsible thing to do, because if that was you, you know, if I was paying the bills with farming, I would be homeless and I'd only have my vegetables to eat. I think I wouldn't really be, you know, I hate to bring up like the money side of it, but I wouldn't really be making enough to survive. And so I think it's really irresponsible for people to be teaching how to farm

42:34
putting these dollar signs in, especially like guys' brains and thinking they can do this just like this certain farmer that farms, you know, that's real famous and farms in the city somewhere. Yes. And I don't want to end this on a downer. I hate ending the podcast on a downer. So I'm going to flip it and say, number one, you're right. Farming is a hard way to make money. It takes a lot of patience, a lot of faith.

43:02
and a lot of hard work and it makes your body hurt. If you're doing hard work, your body's gonna ache. But if you really enjoy gardening, there's absolutely nothing wrong with starting a garden and learning how to do it and growing things. And if you're successful at it, you can supplement your income with it. How's that for Flip It Up? Yeah, yeah. No, I think, I mean, I love it and I don't wanna give up doing it, but I don't want people to think.

43:31
you know, have expectations that aren't going to be met. But I especially like the flower side of my, I haven't really mentioned that I do grow flowers too. That gives me so much pleasure to see them every day. And then when I arrange them, it's this artistic outlet that I just love. And I don't do a lot of that. You know, I just have a small, you know, area of flowers and I have just a few extra, I have add on CSA flower shares, but I really love that part of it. And

44:01
It's something that I wouldn't, if I go a different direction and I specialize in something and say didn't do CSA, I'd be like, what would I do about, what would I do about the flowers? I still have to do that. It's a very pleasurable thing. I understand. I love flowers. I don't necessarily want to get into selling them at all really, but I love flowers. We have lots of peonies here now. We moved here four years ago.

44:31
And we also have just two wildflower gardens that we just bought wildflower seeds and tilled up a four by four patch of dirt and threw wildflower seeds in and said grow. And the two patches come up now every spring and they're just so perky and pretty and there's poppies, there's little mini sunflower looking flowers in there, there's forget me nots.

44:57
There's just all kinds of these really pretty different wildflowers. And I love it because I look out the window and I can just see them from my living room. And when they start to bloom, I'm like, okay, we're into real summer now. Yeah, it's yes. I have where I'm sitting right now in my house. I have a wildflower patch that I see out of this window and it's near where the CSAs pick up and my husband didn't like it when I first tilled this big patch of our backyard. But.

45:27
now it is it is so nice. So we're really happy even though we have less than three acres, you know, we just like to sit and look at all those things and we really appreciate just every little part of that, you know, the birds and you know the frogs and toads and just all of it, you know, it is really nice just to have that little bit and see your trees grow and I think that, you know, that's human nature and that I mean that should be should be human nature for everybody. It's

45:56
relaxing, healthful thing to do. Yes, and flowers are prettier than grass. So why not put in flowers? I mean, I like the look of a good lawn, but I feel like a good lawn is useless. It sure is. But flowers are pretty, so they feed your soul. And if you can grow food instead of grass, you feed yourself. So don't grow grass, people. Grow flowers, grow produce, grow something that actually feeds you.

46:25
because grass does not feed you. Yeah, I don't want too many people in my area to grow vegetables though, because then I won't be selling any vegetables, but I'm just kidding. Yeah, I know, I know, double-edged sword. I definitely give out a lot. When I was at market, I gave out a ton of help all the time. I love helping people grow things. I love when they want to try, and they get inspired and they're like, oh, look at this, I'm gonna try to do this.

46:54
I had a lot of that was, I mean, I do miss that somewhat at market that, you know, talking to people that were really excited about the different things that they saw and kind of getting back to nature to some extent. I do miss that. Yeah. All right. Well, we've been talking for over 45 minutes, Tamara, and I really enjoyed it. And you know how I know I enjoyed it? Because I was like, oh, I try to keep these to half an hour and we're at 45 minutes. I didn't know that.

47:22
Well, thanks for having me. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Yeah, no problem. Thank you very much. All right. Bye.