Can Donald Trump actually get more Black people to vote for him?

Flux Podcasts (Formerly Theory of Change)

Episode Summary

It's just over three months before Election Day and President Joe Biden is behind his Republican opponent, Donald Trump, in most public opinion polls. One of the biggest reasons this is happening is that Biden seems to be getting much less than the 85 percent support from Black Americans that Democrats typically do.

Just how much less support is difficult to say, however, because most polls don’t have enough African-American respondents to draw meaningful conclusions. But there have been some that have. In a survey conducted last month by Suffolk University in the swing states of Michigan and Pennsylvania, only 56 percent of Black registered voters picked Biden.

There is also a generational divide to the discontent. In April, the Pew Research Center found that 84% of Black registered voters ages 50 and up said they’d vote for Biden if the election were held today, while only 68 percent who were 49 and younger said the same.

In a May national survey conducted by the University of Chicago, 23 percent of black adults between 18 and 40 said they would vote for Trump. 33% picked Biden, while 25 percent said they’d vote for “someone else.”

Undoubtedly, much of the problem that Biden seems to be facing stems from his advanced age. He is the oldest person to ever hold the office of president, and Americans of all races and parties have expressed concerns about this for many years.

But almost certainly, there are some other factors in the mix. After ignoring Black voters for decades, the Republican party has been putting forward black entertainers who like Trump. And there are more than a handful who do, most prominently Amber Rose, who spoke at the Republican National Convention on July 15.

There’s also the question of whether Trump’s macho personality and sexist treatment of women might be making him appealing to men who have marinated in pop culture products that frequently degrade and insult women.

We’ll see how things shake out in November whether Trump gets a higher percentage of the Black vote than a typical Republican, but he can still succeed by getting enough African-Americans to stay home instead of voting for Biden.

In the meantime, I wanted to bring in my friend Jamilah Lemieux to discuss all this. She is a podcaster at Slate and a writer who has published extensively on Black culture and politics, including a recent piece at Vanity Fair on misogyny and hip-hop. Besides at her Substack, you can find her on Instagram and Twitter.

The video of this discussion is available. The transcript of audio is below. Because of its length, some podcast apps and email programs may truncate it. Access the episode page to get the full text.

Cover photo: Model Amber Rose speaks at the Republican National Convention in praise of Donald Trump. July 15, 2024. Image via screenshot.

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Audio Chapters

00:00 — Introduction

04:41 — Trump’s outreach to black men

07:14 — Donald Trump and hip-hop

11:01 — Amber Rose at the RNC

15:40 — Is there a connection between misogyny in hip-hop and Trump support?

19:47 — Kendrick Lamar vs. Drake and the dilemma of female rap fans

27:38 — Black Americans and the Christian Right

29:33 — Joe Biden seems to be partnering less with Black celebrities than Donald Trump

33:26 — Comparing Kamala Harris and Barack Obama

36:43 — Democrats haven’t realized that their voters want positive motivation

45:56 — Kamala Harris as the potential Democratic nominee

51:29 — Concluding thoughts and future outlook

Audio Transcript

The following is a machine-generated transcript of the audio that has not been proofed. It is provided for convenience purposes only.

Matthew Sheffield: There’s been so much happening in the political world lately, and one of the things is Joe Biden’s favorability among Black Americans. It’s lower at this point in time than past Democratic presidential candidates. Do you think that Trump’s going to improve his numbers significantly from 2020 among Black people?

Jamilah Lemieux: I don’t know if Trump is going to improve his numbers with Black people significantly, but I do expect it. I expect that they’ll improve this time around.

The GOP has been making a big push for Black men since the last [00:05:00] election. Once the DNC really started embracing Black women, talking about listening to Black women, trust Black women are this important voter block I think the RNC saw an opportunity to speak to Black men. And I think there were Black men who were turned off by the Democrats focusing on Black women specifically, even though we are worthy of that attention and have earned that attention as such a tremendously loyal voting block Black men are not far behind us, but they are behind us. But I’ve seen a lot of. Right wing propaganda making its way around online hip-hop spaces and being promoted by Black male influencers.

I, see them spreading pro-Trump ideology on Twitter. And I don’t doubt that some of these guys are getting checks. They’re being paid by, by PACs, by whomever [00:06:00] to promote. Republican ideas to Black audiences, particularly, Black audiences that aren’t super educated.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. And another way that they’re making some of this marketing approach also I think is, using religion and using that as a tool. Because I mean, a lot of Black Americans are the most religious and most Christian demographic with lots of fundamentalist viewpoints, right? That’s got to be effective for some people.

Jamilah Lemieux: Yes, but interestingly enough, Black women are far more religious than Black men. But Black women have historically been able to vote their interests as opposed to just voting with their Bibles. So, I am curious to see how many religious Black men are converted by these attempts to court them.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. And, of course, I mean, it’s something that they’ve done for a little [00:07:00] while, prominently with Ben Carson and his idiocy. Man, yeah, he because I mean, he’s been riding that gravy train for decades of, trying to be the pious guy that needs your money.

Rappers and Trump’s influence

Matthew Sheffield: And then of course, they’re also, the Republicans are also making a lot of Outreach using entertainers who are Black.

Yeah. Using entertainers who are Black, particularly. Rappers. And I mean, there’s, like nobody who’s really currently that big in hip hop is out there, shilling for Trump but still, some of the, past ones are you want to like, like the, I, for people don’t know, like, for instance, Trump did an appearance in New Jersey a little while ago with some rappers That I don’t it didn’t get as much attention as it should have, I think, because it was really revealing.

Jamilah Lemieux: I think it’s because the rappers were just not that well known. I [00:08:00] think if people knew who these guys were. I don’t remember their names. Like, I don’t even know who does. I didn’t know who those guys were prior to that event.

Matthew Sheffield: They’re guys who are, basically live in the New York area. And one guy calls himself Sheff G. He apparently has millions of YouTube views and Spotify streams, but he also is the central figure in a gang case that the Brooklyn district attorney started prosecuting. And he has been sentenced for weapons possession.

And then the other rapper who was there with Trump is this other guy who goes by Sleepy Hollow. He’s got lots of Spotify fans and he’s also in the gang case as well. And Trump was out there, he had them on stage and introduced them to everybody. And it’s very bizarre seeing Republicans trying to have it both ways. Don’t you think?

Jamilah Lemieux: Absolutely.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. [00:09:00] Oh, you’re looking something up.

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah. I was just thinking about Trump pardoning Kodak Black and Little Wayne and why that might be part of the reason that these rappers are willing to be around him.

There have been rappers in Trump’s orbit for a very long time. I mean, once upon a time Trump might have popped up in a rap video, like a lot of rappers were impressed by his wealth, by his alleged business acumen and his lifestyle, right? So, like Trump was name dropped in a whole lot of rap records, I think of songs by Wu-Tang that mentioned him.

But like. More recently, I think of little Wayne and Kodak Black who received presidential pardons on President Trump’s last day in office both related to gun charges. And I suspect that some of the rappers who are willing to be in his orbit now are looking for something similar to happen for them or perhaps [00:10:00] for some of their friends.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you have to think so. And I mean, that is apparently how Kanye West got to know Trump initially when he was the president. That he, when he was married to Kim Kardashian, that she was involved in trying to get some pardons for various people. And so, she reached out to the Trump White House, and he tagged along.

And that was when Kanye decided he loved Trump and loved Republicans. Not too, many years after saying George Bush doesn’t care about Black people. And, but yeah, but even like, he’s another example of the religious fundamentalism stuff, like, I mean, that guy’s religious viewpoints are.

Completely nuts. He, he thinks he’s a prophet. He talks to Jesus daily. I’ve got a continuous stream of conversation with God in his brain.

Amber Rose at the RNC

Matthew Sheffield: And then Trump’s also been making some other [00:11:00] overtures, not just with Black men, but also with Amber Rose, who you have interviewed in the past. You want to talk about her for people who don’t know who she is, maybe give us a little intro first.

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah, Amber Rose is a model, socialite, and influencer who came to notoriety because she was once Kanye West’s girlfriend. And she made a name for herself outside of that. She briefly got involved with some pro women’s activism champing against slut shaming, being outspoken about abortion rights and reproductive justice.

But I think that And Amber, who identifies as mixed race and could be considered White passing, I don’t think that appealing to her was an attempt to get Black women. I think getting Amber Rose was about getting Black men. I think it was about her being an object of desirability for Black men and the GOP thinking that Black men are [00:12:00] so dull witted, that a pretty woman can charm them into changing their vote or casting a vote when they wouldn’t have.

Cast one in the first place.

Matthew Sheffield: And so, she gave a speech at the Republican national convention last night. And here’s a little piece from it where she’s getting cheered on from the stage.

Amber Rose: I realized Donald Trump and his supporters don’t care if you’re Black, White, gay, or straight, it’s all love.

And that’s when it hit me. These are my people. This is where I belong.

Matthew Sheffield: And there it is. So, yeah, and she, did [00:13:00] typical kind of Black Republican tropes in her speech a lot. But I mean, what was your reaction when you heard that she was speaking there besides the fact that you think they are Black men, like, like, I mean, you had talked to her before, like you have spoken to her years ago.

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah. I think Amber is the grifter. This makes me call into question everything I believe that she stood for in the past with regard to women’s rights. I think she’s found a hustle. I think that was the hustle for her in the past. Now she’s onto a new hustle that pays a little bit better.

I don’t think Amber Rose would have ever stood on a stage the size of the Republican National Convention had she not been there. She would never have a platform like this if she wasn’t doing what she’s doing by attaching herself to MAGA.

She’s an attention seeker. She’s been good at keeping herself in the public eye for all these years without having a discernible talent. [00:14:00] She doesn’t do that much modeling at this point. Like, it’s not like you see her on the runway or in a print magazine anywhere. She’s kind of famous for being famous, sort of like the Kardashians, but she doesn’t have skims or a Kylie beauty, you know what I mean?

So what was she going to sell? She’s selling herself.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. And she tried to be a rapper but it was, So completely a nonevent that I think a lot of people don’t even remember that it happened. And I never listened to it, and I don’t know anybody who has except maybe for journalistic purposes.

So yeah, like and that’s, buttressing your point, people didn’t like what she was doing necessarily, because she wasn’t really doing anything. And she wasn’t, getting model contracts for whatever reason. And so, the Republicans will always welcome a person who is going to sell out to them.

Jamilah Lemieux: [00:15:00] Yeah.

Matthew Sheffield: And at the same time though, it just, it seems so completely insincere. I mean, Matt Walsh, the extremist Christian commentator over at the Daily Wire, he got angry that she was allowed to speak there. He says on Twitter, he made a tweet that said: “The RNC gives a prime time speaking slot to a pro-abortion feminist and self-proclaimed slut with a face tattoo whose only claim to fame is having sex with a rapper. Truly an embarrassment. Not a single voter will be mobilized by this person.”

Is he right on that last point?

Jamilah Lemieux: I think he is. I think he is.

Is there a connection between misogyny in hip-hop and Trump support?

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. Well, okay. So, and it’s still up in the air as we’re recording but there are some rumors that 50 Cent, he may make an appearance at the convention as well.

On Monday when Trump came out to bask in the applause he came out to one of 50s [00:16:00] songs, one of his more famous ones. Like, I mean, but he’s always been kind of a Republican over the years. Right.

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah. 50 is very conservative and would fit right in with the Republican party.

Matthew Sheffield: Well, and, I mean, and, like, as you were to go back to what you were saying about, Trump, he was named check quite a bit, especially in the mid-2010s by a lot of rappers and maybe, and obviously that’s probably in conjunction with the apprentice.

I’m sure that’s related to it as well. But this is something that you have been writing about recently, this idea of, the, I mean, just the inherent sexism in so much of rap music, then like there’s some affinity with Trump and his macho and well, he’s an adjudicated rapist, we can say that and his, the way that he treats women and abuses them.

I mean, that’s [00:17:00] probably another point of affinity. But yeah,

Jamilah Lemieux: I think that misogyny is really what connects Black men and White men through hip hop, like, I think that White men who didn’t grow up in the inner city around gangs, around street violence can’t necessarily relate to that part of the music.

But they can relate to hating women, right? They can relate to thinking of women as b*****s and hoes. Same as, middle class Black guys who didn’t grow up around street violence or who are, somewhat insulated from that connect with hip hop because of the misogyny, because of the way it’s structured.

Speaks about women and to women. And I think that Trump’s treatment of women appeals to, a lot of men, Black, White, and otherwise, to feel disenfranchised by feminism, who blamed the gains that women have made in society for their own [00:18:00] shortcomings. Who would like to see us get, quote unquote, back to a time where women knew their place.

His sexism is certainly a selling point.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. And to your point, like the trans racial appeal. With the misogyny and sexism, I mean, like that, was the original stick of Eminem, the, biggest well, at least I guess for a while, the biggest White rapper. He was a guy who didn’t have any of those impoverished experiences, so he couldn’t really talk about that, but the thing he did talk about was how he was going to kill and murder various women in his life.

Especially his mom. And I mean, I remember when I, and I was a Republican when he came out, but I was like, holy s**t. I cannot believe people are listening to this stuff. It’s awful. And, but yeah, like I think that, that type of stuff, it did. implant in a lot of men’s minds. Unfortunately, that it made them, it groomed them for somebody like Trump to come [00:19:00] in the political world.

Jamilah Lemieux: I think what’s interesting about Eminem is that he at one point was one of the few rappers who had the courage to call Trump out and he just really, he released a new album last week and I haven’t heard anything about anti Trump lyrics. I’ve heard. Awful things he said about women, including women who’ve been victims of domestic violence, but nothing about him coming after Trump, which I find to be very interesting, particularly in this moment in history.

What happened to that courage? What happened to that part of him that felt that was something he needed to speak out against. He’s just doubling down on the same old misogyny and violence towards women. He’s, stood for his whole career, basically.

Kendrick Lamar vs. Drake and the rise of women rappers

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, well, and it’s like, and I mean, and, you wrote a piece recently for Vanity Fair where, you talk about, your perspective on all this stuff and on hip hop as a female [00:20:00] fan and how they don’t really care about it, but there was kind of a little bit of an exception sort of recently with Kendrick Lamar.

You want to kind of unwrap that for people who weren’t following that?

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah. Kendrick Lamar and Drake have been embroiled in a very public rap beef after years of taking shots at each other, it exploded down into about six diss tracks between the two of them. And on Kendrick’s end, he’s accused Drake of being a misogynist.

He called him a misogynist. He said, I don’t think you like women. He’s accused him of not liking Black women specifically. And he’s accused him of having inappropriate relationships with women. with girls, with underage girls, so, in response, Drake has claimed that Kendrick abuses his wife. So, it’s really kind of [00:21:00] fascinating and women have often been at the center of hip hop beefs, like Jay Z and Nas, their beef begins because Jay Z has a with the mother of Nas’s child.

But like this time around, we’re seeing women and girls be defended. That’s something that mainstream hip hop music, by men has not done right. If there’s one single record Tupac’s keep your head up, which is, dedicated to Black women and talks about how they’re mistreated within the community.

But other than that, rap is never telling you to treat women better or saying that there’s anything wrong with treating women poorly. So, it’s been interesting to hear these two guys say, essentially it’s not cool to take advantage of underage girls. It’s not cool to abuse your wife.

It’s not cool to hate women, but you know, women are just fodder for this beef between them, right? Because if Drake and [00:22:00] Kendrick didn’t have an issue with each other, Kendrick would have known about Drake being in the underage girls and he never would have said anything about it, right? He’d have just kept it to himself if he thought he was a cool guy.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. And you wrote about your own kind of perspective on that as a Black woman fan of hip-hop. And I mean, like, that’s how much of a discussion have you had about that just continual disrespect that women have been receiving in the genre with other women? Like, how does that feel for you guys?

Jamilah Lemieux: I mean, it’s a conversation I’ve been having since I was 11 or 12 years old. The first article I ever had published when I was 16 was called misogyny and hip hop, and it talked about Eminem, who is so, still than a relatively new artist and has talked about the ways that other men in hip hop have historically spoken about women.

It’s incredibly hurtful. It’s [00:23:00] one of the most popular genres of music on the planet. And in the article, I attempted to list every accusation of violence against women. Against the rapper that I could find. There were a lot of them that I remembered and knew. There are a lot of them that I discovered during my research, and there were a few that I remembered after the article was published.

Like, oh, I forgot about this. Oh, I forgot about that because there’s so many of them. Right? And so I think it’s important to recognize that the violence against women that can be heard in hip hop records doesn’t just stay on wax, it’s not just for entertainment. It’s reflected in how these men treat women and, their day to day lives, right?

Like we’re getting all these stories about Puffy since the spate of lawsuits against him late last year, including six rape allegations instances of Putting his hands on women. There’s a video that circulated of him [00:24:00] beating his former girlfriend, Cassie, and stomping her out.

Hip hop has the violence against women pro problem, and that’s not to say that other genres of music don’t have artists that are violent towards women, but they’re not generally singing about it. Right. And so like, it’s not as central to the culture as violence against women is central to hip hop culture.

Matthew Sheffield: Well, and like you wrote about, having to kind of switch off part of your brain to listen to the song. And I mean, that’s an awful thing to have to do. The whole point of music is to experience it with all of yourself, if you really want to get into it, right?

But you can’t do that. We’ve had this—I raised this point with you in a text, but like, is it, there’s maybe some possibility, do you think that the fact that there have been a lot more female performers coming out and really topping the charts lately that.

Maybe [00:25:00] it has woken people up to some degree to be like, Oh, well, maybe we can not be anti female all the time and stand up for women being mistreated once in a while. I don’t know. I mean, what did you think?

Jamilah Lemieux: No, I haven’t seen the rise of women rappers have that sort of impact on hip hop yet.

I haven’t seen it. challenge male rappers to speak differently about women or think differently about them. They’re making the same music they’ve been making for the past 30 years. Women are objects to be used and discarded. Um, I’d like to think that as women rappers continue to dominate.

Matthew Sheffield: They absolutely have like, I mean, they are just kicking the men’s asses.

Jamilah Lemieux: Some of them are, but I think there’s still a long way to go. I think what really has to happen and I’ve been waiting for this my whole life and I’m hoping that maybe Gen Z can take this [00:26:00] up because my generation wasn’t able to do it and Gen X certainly didn’t do it. But I think it’s going to take some pushback from the listeners.

I think the women who are, 50 percent of the hip hop buying audience, if not more, are going to have to say, we’re no longer listening to records that dehumanize us. We’re not interested in records that make light of violence against us. And we’re not interested in rappers who, participate in actual acts of violence against women.

Right. So. In the past couple of years, there was the case of Tory Lanez and Megan Thee Stallion. Tory Lanez is a rapper and singer from Toronto who shot Megan Thee Stallion, who’s a superstar rapper, in the foot in 2020. And his story Star Rose after this, he had more fans. There are people that are, dedicated [00:27:00] to conspiracy theories that he didn’t actually shoot her, that she lied that this is some sort of—

Matthew Sheffield: —It was all fake.

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah, this is all fake, and so like that to me says a lot about where we, very much still are, and that we have a really long way to go. Relates to making hip hop a safer space for women, because Megan is beautiful, rich, famous, talented, right? And still was able to fall victim to the sort of campaign of harassment that accompanied being shot by a man. That says a lot about the listening audience.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, no, it does and not good things, unfortunately.

Black Americans and the Christian Right

Matthew Sheffield: But just kind of going back maybe to the bigger picture on my podcast, I have talked with historians and political theorists and whatnot. And, like the emerging consensus among a lot of, people is that, yeah, that, in the past, the, American reactionary who control the Republican party, [00:28:00] they were more religiously organized and racially organized, in their earlier years.

But now that as the percentage of people who are Hispanic or Asian or Black has, is a lot higher among younger generations, and they’re also not religious They’re having to use sexism as a, as kind of their sort of glue to hold the coalition together in a lot of ways. And, and I think he really, Trump is, he is the perfect embodiment of that, I think in so many ways.

But I mean, what do you think about, do you think JD Vance is relevant in that context as well? What do you think?

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah. I mean, he’s notoriously sexist. He opposes abortion, even in the Cape. In case of rape and incest, there was a very deliberate decision made with that selection of a VP, this was not something that was done to court women who might be on the [00:29:00] fence about Trump. This was a call to men.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, I think so. And yeah, and like, then all these laws that have been passed subsequently, regarding abortion and have made clear that these are not pro life laws. These are laws about controlling women and about controlling girls and, and like, that’s what the actual point is more than anything else.

Oh, I said it too good, huh? Okay. Well, yeah, okay.

Joe Biden seems to be partnering less with Black celebrities than Donald Trump

Matthew Sheffield: but, at the same time, though, while all these movements are going on toward, the Republican Party among at least, and we’ll, see how it ends up being, but there is a paradox that, there are a lot of Black celebrities out there who do not like Trump and are, would love to speak out against him, but they need somebody to, help them because they’re not super political.

They know they’re not writers or whatever, so [00:30:00] like they need help having the right words to say about it. Cause not everybody’s a political junkie out there because they’re busy and they got stuff going on. You’re not, everybody can be. Taraji Henson calling out Project 2025 at the BET award.

But I, the Biden campaign has been really lackluster in this regard. I feel like, what do you think?

Jamilah Lemieux: I do think the Biden campaign has failed to effectively engage Black influencers of all sorts, meaning people who are strictly online influencers. Celebrities, athletes, entertainers, but I will say this something my mom points out often is that like, it’s not the celebrities don’t play a part in political life in this country because they do like we’ve obviously elected to celebrity presidents at this point we’ve elected celebrities governors, both Republican.

But when it comes to Black people in particular. Celebrities are often looked at to be [00:31:00] spokespeople for the race in a way that I think is somewhat unfair, like they don’t necessarily have the credentials of a Mark Lamont Hill, right, or Joanne Reed, but they’re given these platforms because they’re famous.

But, I do think that the Biden campaign, should have made some inroads with some of those folks. I mean, I think the Biden campaign should have tried to build a relationship with Taylor Swift, and I don’t know if they attempted that and were just shut down, but it just seems that there are a lot of spaces in which people could be surrogates for the party.

And they’re just not being invited, to participate in any meaningful way.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. Yeah. And like, and I think that’s something, for people who are extremely pro Biden and, they want him to stay on the ticket, come hill or high water, I think that they, don’t understand White that when people are talking about replacing him, it’s not just about, whatever perception, what people might have of [00:32:00] Biden himself and how he conducts himself.

But it’s also the people that he hires and just the, antiquated style of doing things, like they think that showing up and, doing unveiling I don’t know, some manufacturing plant or whatever, like that’s. a campaign a bit, and they’ve checked the box and they don’t have to do anything.

And then meanwhile, Trump’s going on all the, a zillion podcasts and hanging out with Amber Rose or whatever, like that’s, those are the sorts of things that, or going to WWE events or UFC, like Biden doesn’t do. Any equivalent of that. He’s nowhere to be seen in any of these adjacent events.

And the reality is that, that when you look at the polls, that the people who are the least engaged and the least informed, They’re going for Trump because the Biden people have nothing to say to them. And that’s, a real problem.

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah. I mean, I think this is a long time failure of the Democratic [00:33:00] party post Obama to reach voters where they are.

I think about the spaces that Hillary Clinton wasn’t in that she should have been in, I think about how Kamala Harris could be used as a surrogate in ways that she just simply is not, and when she does, she shows up and shows out. Right. But we’re not, I think she should have been at the BET awards.

Matthew Sheffield: That’s a good point. That’s a good point. Yeah.

Comparing Kamala Harris and Barack Obama

Matthew Sheffield: And like, and, speaking of her though, I think that the, the, there, the way that they’ve used her or rather not used her is just been ridiculous. I mean, she, you can say maybe she’s not the most charismatic person in the world, but who is.

necessarily, right? She’s good enough. And they don’t, they’re not putting her out there in a lot of places. And then at the same time that, people will turn around and be like, Oh, well, people don’t like her. And it’s like, well, they never actually heard her say anything. Do you think that’s my [00:34:00] thought on

Jamilah Lemieux: it?

It’s really interesting, The Obama elections were such a case study in branding, like how a well branded product can basically sell itself, they were pioneers in social media marketing when it came to Obama, just the graphics and the image, and we were, given this look at Barack as somebody very cool.

And I would imagine that Obama probably hasn’t been the coolest dude in the room his whole life, I think that’s something that came to him a little bit later in his story, but we, meet him is this very cool debonair down earth guy who can talk to basketball players who can talk to families.

I think about how his wife was rebranded, the makeover that she got. Once she got into the White House, she started wearing the high end and low end dresses, like one day she’s in Proenza and the next day she’s wearing like 150 dress from White House, Black [00:35:00] market, and everybody’s talking about it and Kamala, I think needed that too.

And I understand that she’s an elected official and is to be taken with a level of seriousness. The. Perhaps the first lady is not, but I think that we needed a repackaged Kamala, one who was a little bit more relatable. One who was cool, charmer and cooler. Excuse me, more charming and cooler.

And I hate to say that because when we’re talking about, the fate of the world, essentially or the nation, we shouldn’t be talking about charisma. But we do know that and who’s cool, but we know that does, impacts how people vote in elections. I mean, Trump for his supporters is cool, he’s somebody that they’d want to have a drink with.

He’s somebody. Who they aspire to be like, and the Democrats haven’t sold us somebody aspirational in a long time.

Matthew Sheffield: [00:36:00] Yeah, no, that’s a great point. Yeah. Like, I mean, they admire Trump for having sex with Stormy Daniels. I think a lot of them, even though he continues to lie about it. But yeah, like they think that’s, that’s an admiral thing that he did and they love that, he’s had all kinds of affairs and whatnot.

Yeah, like for, and, and apparently some of the women feel that way about him as well, like there’s I mean, there, so there’s some of these notorious pictures of, Trump supporting women at his rallies, having signs that say he can grab my pussy things like that. You’ve seen those, right?

Yeah. And so like, I mean, yeah, like, but Democrats, they didn’t, I don’t think they learned anything from Obama. Oh, wait, I really don’t think they did or not very much.

Democrats haven’t realized that their voters want positive motivation

Matthew Sheffield: and it’s a real shame because, like, I think in a lot of ways they haven’t understood that the Democratic electorate.

To your point about, inspiring and whatnot. Like the Democratic electorate is fundamentally different than the [00:37:00] Republican electorate. The Republican electorate is motivated by negative things. Like, they think that the world is ending, they think that everybody’s going to be gay any minute now, they think that they’re not, and then the next day they’re going to be, everybody’s going to be trans.

And. No one, everyone hates America and is smoking weed. Like that’s, what they think. They really believe this stuff. And everybody’s going to be an atheist, Black Lives Matter, Antifa activists by the end of it. And they’re going to burn down their house. Like. That’s what the Republican electorate thinks about America.

They hate America. They hate their fellow Americans. And, but the Democratic electorate, the people who vote Democratic, they want something better. They want to have a better life for themselves and their family and their community. And they want to see it. And they want somebody to talk about, how they’re going to get there and what they’re going to do for them and how they can help.

That’s, that to me was what Obama [00:38:00] 08 was. But yeah, ever since then, and even like he didn’t really do that even as much in 2012, like it was, an anomaly in democratic politics and certainly that’s not what the message was in 2016 or 2020. And doesn’t appear to be that now. What did you think?

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah. I mean, the Obama 08 campaign was inspiring, it made you believe that a better world was possible and the Democrats have not sold us that since then, like the last two elections have basically been about, like, Trump is so awful, we must defeat Trump. Defeat Trump at all costs, but it doesn’t seem like the Democratic party is willing to pay the costs necessary to actively defeat Trump.

Like I think about Joe Biden suspending his campaign as the day after Trump was shot, like when that could have been an opportunity to, perhaps post a [00:39:00] message, trying to unify the nation, right, condemning what happened, but also talking about the fact that, this is somebody who stoked political violence himself.

This is somebody who, inspired his followers to launch an insurrection. I mean,

Matthew Sheffield: Or he could just run positive ads, being like, Hey, I’m Joe Biden. I got these five things I want to do. That’s it.

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah. I mean, I just, there was no reason to, there was no reason to go silent, like to give this man a moment of silence as if he died, I just think was just really short sighted and, just another reminder of how the Republicans, they commit to a bit, like if Joe Biden had been shot at, Trump would have had a commercial the next day about how Joe Biden had the worst assassination attempt of any president.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, well, or like his son, Don Junior, he promoted a meme after Paul Pelosi, [00:40:00] Nancy Pelosi’s husband got attacked. He was like, he posted a, he reposted a picture of somebody had posted some White men’s underwear and a hamburger. And he was like, Oh, I got my, Paul Pelosi costume ready now.

That was hilarious. Like they mocked her, the assault on, her husband and, in the mainstream and the mainstream media did not, they, they did not call that out and like, but at the same time, I feel like that a lot of Democrats in the leadership class or the donor class. They think that the mainstream media, that they can somehow bully the mainstream media into becoming a democratic or progressive media, and that’s not going to happen, and they’ve been trying this for, 30 years or more, and it’s not going to work.

They should just make their own stuff. Like, I mean, the right wing media now at this point, I’m going to actually tally up the numbers, but like, if you add up all the various podcasts [00:41:00] and video websites and whatnot, like the right wing advocacy media. Is probably two or three times larger, maybe even more than everybody in left wing media put together.

Jamilah Lemieux: Absolutely.

Matthew Sheffield: And especially in terms of like podcasts that target younger, like younger people, like Gen Alpha, Gen Z. The right wing oligarchs, they’re funding things, talking that are ostensibly about dating, quote unquote.

But really what they are is just, telling young boys that, I mean, Andrew Tate, great example, telling young boys that women need to be put in their place. They shouldn’t have rights and they exist to serve men. And if they don’t hear any other message on YouTube about that, what do you, expect them to believe?

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah, I mean, the Democrats suck at propaganda. [00:42:00] Like, like the right wing has been piling their followers on with so much propaganda, so much information, so much that’s designed to compel them to vote for somebody like Donald Trump and the, Left just seems unwilling or unable to do that.

I mean, just the lack of strong left leaning publications at this point, that are willing to call themselves left leaning. I mean, there’s something inherently cowardly about the democratic party and I’ve struggled to understand just why that is for many years, but you know, they’re just afraid to say things with their chest, like they just don’t, they seem.

To believe that by being civil towards the enemy and not treating them as the enemy that somehow. Things will just work out. We got to play nice. We got to play fair We got to play above board, but [00:43:00] these people aren’t playing nice or fair at all,

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, and it’s also like I think that they think that people will just figure it out themselves And you know because like it is I mean it is the case that the more Educated you are like people who have you know, like you know The more educated you are, the least, less likely you are to like Donald Trump in general.

But so, but the problem is I think Democrats, they just, they forgot. That most Americans never graduated from college ever. Like that was never the majority of Americans and, and in the process they, like this is how they lost the, this is how they lost the White vote for themselves in some ways that, like Bill Clinton, I think he either got pretty close, like.

He got pretty close to the percentage that Bush got in 1992. Like, but [00:44:00] the, non college educated White vote was, has gradually, slipped to be, pretty overwhelmingly majority Republican, even though that wasn’t how it started out. And we’re seeing similar trends happening with.

Non educated non college Hispanics. And we’re seeing some of that with although interestingly enough, not with Black Americans, the Black Americans who are gravitating toward the Republican party is the college educated ones. What do you think is, what do you think is going on with that anomaly?

Is this just, Approximate, proximity to Whiteness, or what do you think?

Jamilah Lemieux: I think it’s the proximity to Whiteness. I think it’s the result of a lot of effort by the GOP to compel these voters and these are largely Black male voters, not Black women.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, I guess I haven’t, I don’t think that the Pew research did a breakdown on.

Education and sex. So, I think that might be right. Yeah. And I mean, but [00:45:00] it’s a challenge though, because like, I think that to a large degree, Democrats kind of, they fantasize about the perfect message, like singular message. And they don’t realize you have to have a lot of messages and you have to have a lot of channels to reach people, like, like the Biden campaign has been very big on TV ad spending, but a lot of people don’t watch TV and a lot of people can skip the commercials and, if you, can reach people many other ways and you should.

But yeah, they, it’s like they, their operative class, I mean, like Biden’s consultants, his top advisors are almost as old as he is. And so they kind of lost touch in a lot of ways, I feel like.

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah, I definitely think Biden’s advisors are very out of touch.

Matthew Sheffield: Well, okay.

Kamala Harris as the potential Democratic nominee

Matthew Sheffield: So now just to go back to Kamala Harris.

[00:46:00] Um, there is some talk, I guess some of that’s muted now, given the, Trump shooting situation, but you know, maybe it’s going to come back we’ll see, but about getting Biden to resign either as the president or resign his candidacy in favor of Kamala Harris and having her, Take the top of the ticket.

Not just because she can significantly in part because people know who she is, who’s already been vetted, and also that legally speaking, she can use all that money that people donated to Biden Harris for president. So, I mean, what, have you been thinking about that? Do you think people would go for that?

Because she does. better than Biden does in polls, like between like two or three, four, it’s sometimes better than, him.

Jamilah Lemieux: Kamala polls better than Biden, but I honestly don’t believe that. The necessary amount of people to defeat [00:47:00] Donald Trump would be willing to vote for a Black woman. I just, I find that completely unfathomable, maybe folks could surprise me, maybe a lot of, people who don’t generally vote would come out who would be inspired by that.

But I just think that this nation hates Black women so much so that the idea of putting a Black woman at the top of a ticket just seems like a terrible risk to me, considering the stakes. But I also, there’s a matter of the timing. I mean, it’s July, the elections in November, Biden to step down should have.

It started, six months ago, a year ago, right? Like the idea that at this point, everybody would just pivot and embrace Kamala and she would, have to stop what she’s doing and become a presidential candidate. I just think that’s really unrealistic. And I think what’s also worth noting is that like a lot of the calls for Biden’s to step down said [00:48:00] nothing about who should step up.

Right? So there are plenty of people saying it shouldn’t be him and floating other names, like, which I think says a lot about what this nation thinks of Black women, because obviously, really there would be one option if he were to step down. It would be her, but a lot of people, wanted to talk about this governor, this, other Democrat.,

Matthew Sheffield: I think also that Kamala Harris is getting in addition to some of the racial She’s getting a lot of the very same critiques that were lodged against Hillary Clinton.

She, has a cackle or she’s not she’s not personable enough. she doesn’t smile more and things like that. But I mean, on the other hand, I mean, did you think that Barack Obama was going to win in 2008?

Jamilah Lemieux: No.

No,

I was shocked. I mean, I campaigned for him. I was at a watch party.

I was very excited about his candidacy, but no, I didn’t trust [00:49:00] White people to do the right thing. I never do. And usually that lack of trust has served me well, but that one singular time I was wrong and look at what the country has been doing ever since then.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah, well, that’s a fair point. Well, and I mean, at the same time, I guess there is, there also is an additional little controversy that to some degree, the, Biden, the pro Biden people are, trying to sort of wrap themselves in Black women to say that Black women, you should do what Black women say and keep him on the ticket which seems a little bit Patronizing maybe that is that if that’s the right word, but especially when you, when he’s got.

When the most likely person to take his place is also a Black woman. And I’m, sure that Black women would like to vote for her if she were to do that. I don’t know. It just seems a little weird to me and kind of tin eared. have you looked at that at all? That [00:50:00] messaging? Have you seen that?

What messaging specifically? Cause you said a few things. that I’ve seen memes of people pushing up there, listen to Black women and keep Biden on the ticket at the top. I mean, it’s a little absurd saying that about an old White guy, I think.

Jamilah Lemieux: Yeah. But I mean, I do think it speaks to, What the base of the party desires, which is to have Joe Biden on the ticket and Black women represent the base of the party, it depends which Black women you’re talking to.

I think these are largely older Black women, baby boomers maybe just some gen Xers who feel passionate about keeping Biden on the ticket. But I also think that Black women are not willing to, vote. May feel the same way as I do that putting a Black woman against Donald Trump just feels like so much of a risk, I mean, Joe Biden was identified because he was supposed to be the guy that could beat [00:51:00] Trump.

And he was the first time around, he was a certain kind of old school Democrat. That would appeal to enough White folks. He wasn’t going to scare them with his progressive or radical views or by being a Black woman. And so, on one hand, I don’t necessarily like Black women being the face of let’s keep Joe Biden in the race, but I understand the very pragmatic reasons why Black women want to keep Joe Biden in the race.

Concluding thoughts and future outlook

Matthew Sheffield: then I have to ask you, do you think he, He can pull it off. What do you think?

Jamilah Lemieux: It doesn’t look good. It doesn’t look good. I think it’s possible. I think it’s going to really be a fight to the very end. It’ll be a close race. But I know that Biden has upset a lot of people with his handling of the situation in Gaza, and they’re going to be people who feel they can’t hold their nose and cast a vote for him again, that they did it the first time they [00:52:00] won’t be doing it again. There are people who do believe that the undoing of this country needs to just happen, that we’re running from it and that basically everything just needs to burn down.

And I think a lot of people are willing to let things burn down. I am not one of them. I will be casting a vote for Joe Biden or from whoever’s the top of the democratic ticket. Who I expect to be Joe Biden at this point inspire enthusiasm, when we just look at his mental acuity at this point and how he does an interview, he did an interview with Complex, which is, a hip-hop lifestyle website, and it was just so cringeworthy and so uncomfortable.

Joe Biden should be on the porch with a blanket in his lap at this point, but instead he’s running for the highest office in the land again. And we desperately need him to win. It’s a, really awful position that we’re all in.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. Well, and I think, a lot of it is that there’s [00:53:00] kind of this sort of cult of credentials among a lot of Democrats, and like you, you saw that with the, with Ruth Bader Ginsburg, people were like: ‘Oh, she’s going to live forever. We’re going to help her celebrate. She doesn’t have to retire. She can keep going.’

And well, she couldn’t, and she died. And Trump got to appoint, her replacement and she should have quit. She should have retired. Joe Biden should have retired after 2022, I think. The election is where the Democrats did well.

He could have been like, yep. All right. See, I did a good job for you guys. Take it away, next generation, hash it out in the primary, do what you want to do. I’ll be there for you. But not in the White House or whatever.

But he didn’t do that. And Nancy Pelosi, she clung to power for a long time, but at least she did finally pass the torch over to Hakeem Jeffries, who actually seems to be doing a fantastic job from what I can see, but like there’s this, idea, and like [00:54:00] in the legal world in the constitutional law professors, like they built this religion of the judge, this cult of the constitutional law. And believing that all judges are impartial, and they love precedent, and they always put away their personal opinions in all cases.

And then meanwhile, the Federalist Society was building a giant conveyor belt full of religious nut job judges and shoving them as much as possible.

And nobody paid attention to them in the left wing legal establishment. And like, I found this woman who it, who teaches con law at USC. She was like looking at the Roberts court rulings and all these horrible things they’ve been doing. And she was like, I just. I just don’t understand it anymore. Like I was making my syllabus for this year, and I started crying because nothing makes sense in what I w what I thought was real.

And it’s like, [00:55:00] that’s because you had a religion. It wasn’t real. You invented this. Like. There’s no such thing as judicial objectivity, and you never read a lick of critical theory or legal realism.

Like, if you had bothered to look at that stuff, you wouldn’t have been so naive. But like, they’re just, they just keep getting surprised, mugged by reality over and over again, and they don’t learn anything. It seems like nobody gets fired. I don’t know. That’s my I’m going off on a rant there.

But what do you think of that?

Jamilah Lemieux: No, I think you’re correct. Like, I think again, on the left, there’s in this idea of civility and assuming the best of people and that everybody just wants what’s right for America. We just may not have the same vision for it, but like, no, these people want to do tremendous harm to our ways of life.

They want to oppress and incarcerate people and they should be taken seriously as a threat that they are, but [00:56:00] that’s just not how Democrats are all.

Matthew Sheffield: Yeah. And maybe, I mean, honestly, maybe some of it is that this is mostly Nicely dressed White people who are calling the shots.

Is that what it is? I maybe yeah. All right. Well, I think let’s maybe wrap up. You are working on a book that I want to make sure we give a plug for. Why don’t you tell my audience about that.

Jamilah Lemieux: I am working on a book about single Black motherhood. It does not come out until next year. So, you’ve got plenty of time to get ready for it.

Matthew Sheffield: Okay. And we’ll do a separate episode about your book when you get ready, when you get ready to have it on pre order, but yeah. It’s been a great conversation for people who want to keep up with your stuff. Jamila, what should they do? What’s your advice?

Jamilah Lemieux: You can still find me on Twitter at Jamila Lemieux and I’m also on Instagram at Jamila Lemieux. [00:57:00]

Matthew Sheffield: And then of course, you’re a podcast cohost over on Slate as well. Do you want to give a plug for that?

Jamilah Lemieux: Yes, I am a cohost of the parenting podcast, “Care and Feeding.” We air twice a week. I’m also a contributor to the Care and Feeding parenting advice column every Friday on Slate.

Matthew Sheffield: All right. Sounds good. I hope people check that out. All right. Well, thanks for being here and I loved having you.

Jamilah Lemieux: Thank you for having me.

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