First-generation attorneys at BigLaw: Navigating challenges and embracing cultural identity

Inclusivity Included: Powerful personal stories

In honor of Asian American, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, we delve into the unique experiences of first-generation attorneys at BigLaw firms. Featuring a distinguished panel from Reed Smith’s PAALS (Pacific and Asian American Lawyers and Staff) business inclusion group, Bareeq Barqawi is joined by Thuy Nguyen, Rizwan 'Rizzy' Qureshi, and Julia Peng. These exceptional attorneys share their inspiring journeys, the challenges they faced, the importance of mentorship, and how they balance their cultural identities within the legal profession. The group shares their invaluable insights and advice for aspiring first-generation law students and young attorneys.

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Transcript:

Intro: Welcome to the Reed Smith podcast, Inclusivity Included, Powerful Personal Stories. In each episode of this podcast, our guests will share their personal stories, passions, and challenges, past and present, all with the goal of bringing people together and learning more about others. You might be surprised by what we all have in common, inclusivity included.

Bareeq: Welcome to Inclusivity Included, Reed Smith's podcast dedicated to exploring diversity, equity and inclusion within the legal profession and across sectors. I'm your host, Bareeq Barqawi, and in honor of May being Asian American, Native Hawaiian, and Pacific Islander Heritage Month, we have a special episode today highlighting first-generation attorneys at Big Law. I'm thrilled to be joined by three exceptional attorneys from our firm and part of today's panel, Thuy Nguyen, a partner in our real estate group, Rizwan ‘Rizzy’ Qureshi, a partner in global Global Regulatory Enforcement Litigation, and Julia Peng, an associate attorney in Global Commercial Disputes. Each of them brings unique perspectives and experiences as first-generation attorneys of Asian and South Asian descent. Thank you all for joining us today.

Rizwan: Thanks for having us.

Bareeq: So to start, can each of you just share a little bit about your background and what inspired you to pursue a career in law? Let's begin with you, Thuy.

Thuy: Thanks, Bareeq. We have to go down memory lane a little bit, but I'll try to keep it concise. As a Vietnamese woman, my family and I immigrated to the United States in 1991. My dad served in the Vietnam War in opposition to the Communist Party. After he served in the war, he was put in what they refer to as re-education camps, which are essentially concentration camps. They put you to work, they tortured you. The idea was to kind of, re-educate you to think the way they thought. He spent a few years there and fortunately for us afterwards, we were able to gain refugee status and come to the U.S. and be protected by the United States government. So my two parents and six kids came to the United States in San Francisco with nothing but the clothes on our back. And we just, my parents set to do a variety of odd and end jobs to support our family. My dad did landscaping. My mom worked at the bakery. She worked at the flea market. She did everything she could get her hands on to feed the six of us. And we were on public assistance. I guess there's no way to really sugarcoat it. And we were, we received food stamps, we received housing assistance. And I remember as a young child, I was fortunate to be able to go to school and pick up English relatively quickly because I was still really young. And so kind of the responsibility I had in my household was taking my parents to the county of public assistance whenever they needed help getting getting food stamps or filling in paperwork for them when it came time for an inspection on our household. And I just remember being really, really terrified every time I had to go to any place of authority and just thinking like, we don't belong here. And I don't want to say anything wrong because I don't want them to reject us. And I just was looking for a profession where I could learn to advocate for myself and for my family, just so we can kind of take away a little bit of that fear and anxiety that I experience every time I go to a court or again, any place of public authority. So I thought a a career in law would be something that could help us overcome some of that anxiety and that fear. And, you know, eight years later, here I am.

Bareeq: Wow. I am actually blown away. What a powerful story, Thuy. Thank you so much for sharing. And I actually came to this country in ‘92, so I can totally relate to coming and having, it's pretty like intimidating experience to come and learn a whole new culture and language, especially what your parents face. So thank you for sharing that. Rizzy, how about you?

Rizwan: Sure. Thank you for having me. And it's funny because Thuy and I have very different backgrounds. My parents are immigrants from Pakistan. I'm a first-generation American, but our backgrounds are also very similar. My parents are immigrants my father grew up very poor he worked his way up and became a veterinarian his his true dream was to be a physician and you know i know that our efforts here on this podcast and there are affinity groups that are BIGs as we call them is always to, steer clear of and and push it against any stereotypes but I'm gonna I'm gonna. Doubled down on a stereotype. I was destined to be a physician, and I was a failure because I did not become a physician. And I mean failure in air quotes. Like my colleague, I was the one, because my parents' English was not their first language, who looked at their very first mortgage document, communicated with their lender to help them understand what kind of risk they were taking by borrowing money to purchase their first home, executing leases on behalf of my father and his family members. And that was my first exposure to, quote unquote, the law. But at the time, all I was was a 12-year-old kid who was trying to help his dad navigate what was otherwise a complex world and complex sort of legal obligations that he had for his various affairs for his family. Not only us, but our extended family. So how did I pursue a career in the law? When I decided to drop AP bio anatomy and physiology when I was in high school, and it literally requested, my father requested a sit down, not with the principal, but also with the superintendent, because it was going to impact the trajectory of my career. I knew that the social sciences, sort of the legal profession, advocacy, helping people was something that was really what made me tick. And sort of the rest is history. You know, I went on to get an undergraduate degree in political science and international relations, did some work at the United Nations on legal advocacy issues. And then felt that the next natural step for me was to go to law school. And I had the privilege to go to Howard University School of Law. And that's really what inspired me to pursue a career in the law. And I don't think it's any different than my colleague. It was my life experience and what I was called upon to do as a child of immigrants and realize that that's where I'm most effective. And, you know, breaking news, my parents are very proud of me and so is my father, but it was a life-changing sort of historic moment when I decided I wasn't going to pursue medical school.

Bareeq: Thank you so much for sharing, Rizzy. I always think it's interesting because as children of immigrants, all of us like end up being these these kid advocates and kid interpreters. And I can relate to you overcoming the obstacles of your culture because actually I always think it's a funny story. We laugh about it now, my dad and I, but my dad used to say, you know, why do you have to go to get your bachelor's degree? You're going to end up being like someone's wife and mother. And I'm like, okay. And that just made me want to prove him wrong. And then he cried at my college graduation. When I graduate top of my class, I always, I always like to remind him of that. Julia, what about you?

Julia: I have a similar story as my colleagues here. I immigrated to America with my parents in 1997. Both my parents were doctors in China, but my dad didn't really speak English at all when we came to America. And so it was an interesting family dynamic to have someone who was a doctor in China now taking on, you know, like dishwashing jobs or waitering jobs at Chinese restaurants, because that's all he could do with his limited English. And so I too was someone who was helping translate for the family and taking on that role. And I thought, I didn't understand the advocacy I was helping to do for my family at the time. And because my parents were doctors, they were very, very insistent that, you know, I would be a doctor and that that's the only career path that made sense for the paying family. And so I actually did make my transition transition to law until my senior year of college. I was pre-med all the way through. In fact, I have a biology degree because my parents are like, you're so close, just get the degree and then you can decide really if you want to be a lawyer or a doctor. So it wasn't until my junior year in college that summer where I went to Peru to intern for two months for my med school applications that I completely realized I'm not cut out to be a doctor. I love the advocacy aspect and I've always enjoyed that even as a child. And my roommate was planning on law school and she She invited me to check out, I guess, back then I went to UCSC and they had a couple of mock one hour classes that undergrads could attend and kind of get the experience of what it would be like to be a law student. And I totally fell in love and I was double majoring in poli sci anyways. And I was like, oh, this is this is a perfect fit for me. And this is exactly what I want to do. But I think like Rizzy, I had to really prove to my parents that this is the route for me and that it was a cause of strife within the family that I was now deviating from the master plan.

Bareeq: Thank you so much for sharing, Julia. And not to even knock the medical profession, because I think it's wonderful if you can do that. But I'm really happy you all ended up attorneys because you're so good at it. So let's talk a little bit about what I kind of referred to as almost like the immigrant identity crisis as you work to adapt and assimilate to culture in America. So balancing cultural identity with fitting into the workplace, it can be challenging. How do you manage this type of balance? And actually, Julia, I'm going to go ahead and start with you?

Julia: Sure. It's something that's still different. So within my family, it's much more like you study, you work hard, and you'll get noticed because of all the work that you have put in. And even now, my parents think the best way forward is always get your straight A's, check all the boxes, but keep your head down and eventually your hard work will pay off. And that's just not how the legal career works. I think that part is definitely a big aspect of it. But I think professionally, I have been encouraged at Reed Smith to get on podcasts like these or to share my opinions, to have these strong opinions that I can exchange and interact with so that it helps me improve as a person, but it also, I feel safe to have, you know, a different personality than what my, I think parents or my family would want to be, which is, oh, you know, you're easygoing and you're, you do your duties to your family and you're a good daughter. But at the end of the day, you're here for your family versus I think I have grown now to become more career-focused. And that's something that I'm also working through.

Bareeq: Thank you for sharing. And I love that aspect of feeling safe enough to bring that identity to the workplace too. Thuy, have you ever felt the need to conform to certain expectations in the workplace? How do you manage your cultural identity?

Thuy: That's definitely a challenge for me. When I was a summer associate going into first year associate, my class was fairly large for San Francisco at the time. There was six of us and I was the only immigrant, came from a diverse background. One thing that I quickly realized was it was very hard for me to network and connect with people, especially at the beginning. With my parents not speaking English, I didn't grow up watching TV or talking about politics at the dinner table, listening to music, having recreational activities like golf or going on vacation with my family. We didn't do or do any of that. And I didn't have those experiences so that I can talk to someone when we see them at the cooler or when we're going around the table and everyone's like, tell us something interesting about yourself. I was always very intimidated and afraid to take up air in the room because I felt like I didn't have anything valuable or interesting to add to the conversation. And I didn't want to talk about my experience or my background, because sometimes it can be very heavy and not really appropriate for like, tell us a fun fact about yourself. And over time, I just had to really push myself outside of my comfort zone and learn new things and just, you know, not be afraid to tell people what I did over the weekend, even if I thought it wasn't interesting, and just not be afraid to share. I feel like that's really kind of shaped my identity at work, just not being afraid to share and then sometimes having to talk about my background and not being afraid that it is who I am. And it's shaped me into the person, the individual, and the attorney that I am today.

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you for sharing. And Rizzy, what about you? How do you navigate your cultural identity in the workplace place?

Rizwan: You know, it's a hard question to answer because in a weird way, I would argue that it ebbs and flows. You know, I'm Rizzy. I am who I am. And I'm very outwardly, I mean, I know that I have a face for radio, which is why I'm on this podcast, but I have a, I look like a child of immigrants. I look like I'm of Pakistani descent. So it's outwardly evident to this homogenous law firm or big law or corporate culture that I'm sort of different. But like my colleagues, I think there's some truth to. You want to find a place in a professional environment where many are not like you. So how do you do that? I'm much farther along in my career. So I have a little bit more, I'll call it courage, admittedly, of being my authentic self. And I don't think I had that courage when I was a young person because I felt like I needed to assimilate to something that wasn't me. But then the other thing that plays an important role here, to give an example, I'm the partner chair of the Muslim Inclusion Committee at Reed Smith. And over the last year, like many people in our community of various religious backgrounds and cultural backgrounds, Muslims are hurting, particularly in light of the Middle East conflict. And what's interesting there is, as a result of that conflict, and this ebbs and flows again, it happened on 9/11 when I was a college student, when otherwise I was just a member of a fraternity who probably was partying too much and just happened to be a brown guy. But then when 9/11 happened, I felt a duty to be more authentically a child of Pakistani immigrants, Muslim American, who represents a group of people here who are not all like the horrible people who hijacked not only planes, but hijacked our peaceful faith and attacked America on 9/11. And I feel the same way in light of this crisis that's occurring in Gaza, which is, I'm a Muslim, and I believe in human rights, and I do believe fundamentally that there's a lot of well-intentioned Muslims who believe in peace and want peace in the region, and our voice needs to be heard. So that's a long way of saying, Barik, it depends on the day, it depends on the moment. Sometimes I feel like, am I not being truly myself all the time? But I'm just speaking for myself. And that's sort of how I've navigated it. And I'm in a different place in my career now where I have, like I said, more courage to be who I am.

Bareeq: I think you bring up such excellent points, which is I don't want to say the word strategic, but sometimes there's an appropriate time to kind of bring up your identity and to add your voice to that conversation. And then there's other times where you kind of just like go with the fold. And that speaks to, I think, being comfortable in the workplace environment, being more confident. And that takes time sometimes, like as you know yourself more than you bring yourself to the table in a really authentic way, given what that environment is or that situation is. So like situational analysis, so to speak. So thank you for sharing that really excellent, excellent examples. I'm going to actually go into a little bit more about, I'm going to go about mentorship. It's often crucial for career development. I would love to hear a little bit about how important mentorship has been in your careers and your journeys. And Rizzy, since we had you end, I'm going to have you start.

Rizwan: Sure. Interestingly, I just was part of a Law360 article on this issue, and it randomly came about, you know, mentorship has been critical to my success, whether as a young person from my father all the way up through aunts and uncles and older cousins and throughout my professional career, from law school through becoming an AUSA at the Department of Justice and back in private practice. is. I rely upon my mentors to this day, and mentors are what I owe a lot of my career to. I did put in a lot of hard work, but, Working with people and understanding from people how the, I won't say sausage, how the kebab is made in the law firm setting is so important to your success. And in that Law360 article, I talked about a seminal moment when I was a young summer associate coming into first year associate and a black partner, or actually he was a senior associate at the time, who recruited me from Howard University School of Law. Late on a Friday, right before a summer event, as you usually have with the Summer Associate Program, which we're in right now, had me do an assignment. And he randomly called me down to his office and asked me to close his door. And my heart dropped because I was like, something's up. And he basically sat me down and said, your work product is absolutely unacceptable. It will never fly in this law firm or any law firm. And if you continue to submit work like this, lazy work like this, you're never going to succeed here. So you might get an offer at the end of the summer, but you won't succeed. To me, I talked to my wife about it to this day. That was such a pivotal moment for me because he was a person I trusted. He's the person I probably got too comfortable with and sort of melded in thinking we needed to get on with our Friday evening activity of which he was going to join me. And I went back to the drawing board. I worked hard, Got him the assignment I needed. And that's been sort of a moment that I continue to cite back to whenever I'm digging deep to do something for clients or for my internal clients or my colleagues is that always, always, always try to work towards the utmost excellence and perfection that you can in your work. You're going to make mistakes. But I'm so thankful for that moment because that individual is now a client of mine, still a dear friend, a big client of the firm. And I think it's a testament to that moment where that mentor, who was of a minority background like me and knew that we had to go the extra mile in this environment because there's so few of us, really kept it real with me. And the fact that he kept it real is one moment to which I owe a lot of my success today. And far too often, in my opinion, whether it's on my white partners or my minority partners, I feel like we often walk on eggshells and don't give appropriate constructive criticism to our mentees. And in the end, the mentees pay for it because folks stop giving them work, they eventually get less busy, and before you know it, they've moved on to somewhere else and we haven't done enough to give them constructive feedback so that they can succeed.

Bareeq: I love that story. Thank you so much for sharing, Rizzy. And I love that it also, I think, probably modeled for you how a mentor should be, which is not just rainbows and, you know, pie in the sky. It's also, you know, keeping it real and making sure you're pushing that person to their success because you see it, right? Thuy, have you found your experience as a first-generation attorney, what have you found in terms of mentorship opportunities and mentorship in terms of your career development?

Thuy: I'm going to take it kind of at a slightly different angle, Bareeq. Going back to my first year as an associate here at Reed Smith, I realized about a month in that I wanted to do transactional work and I was slotted in the litigation group. I came from a law school that was heavily, heavily litigation focused. I did moot court for two or three years until I realized at Reed Smith, I wanted to do transactional work and looking around the office, we didn't have a ton of it. And one day I realized I can't keep doing this. I can't, I need to be billing eight to nine hours a day. And I can't just keep sitting around waiting for work to, to come onto my plate. So I started reaching out to other offices and I reached out to this one partner in Southern California who I won't name. And I said, Hey, I'm very very interested in your practice and transactional work. Is there anything I can help with? And he was hesitant. And looking back, I understand why he might have been hesitant. Someone you don't know who is a very junior associate who is just realizing that she wants to practice transactional law. It is hard to take on someone new under your wing and have to show them the ropes, have to show them how to run a bread line, have to teach them some very basic things. So it took him a while to eventually give me work. So finally, when it came, when the opportunity presented itself for me to help this partner with this assignment, it was my very first assignment with him. So I really wanted to make sure it was polished and it was my best foot forward because I knew that if it wasn't, I was never going to get more work from him and he was probably never going to take another chance on a junior associate again. So thankfully, I did a pretty good job and he still talks about that assignment. To this day, but he was impressed. And one assignment led to another, led to another. And next thing you knew it, I was working for him full time. And I remember during this time, I did many things to get his attention, including flying down to Southern California to see him and see other people that he worked with and called him and emailed him. And I guess all of this is It's just to say sometimes mentorship doesn't fall into your lap. Mentors don't show up on your doorstep. You have to seek them out. And sometimes you have to keep banging on the door to seek them out. But at the end of the day, it's totally worth it. He is now a mentor and a sponsor for me. And I credit all the success I've had at this firm with him taking me under his wing.

Bareeq: I think that's a great example for those that look at mentorship to say, you know, sometimes you have to be really proactive about it and pursue, you know, somebody saying like you have the experience I want to one day, you know, follow in your footsteps. And I love that story. That's fantastic. And Julia, what about you? What about your experience with mentorship in your career?

Julia: To that I think I have to quickly summarize my career, which did not start in big law. So I have been working or I've worked at three law firms. I started an IP boutique litigation firm. And then I realized that wasn't really for me. And then I did plaintiff side law for a little bit. And I love that. But I realized in the long run, that would also probably not be the perfect fit for me. before I made my way to read myth. And I think for every step of my career, I have had mentors and guidance from people within the firm, which I think is really important to rely upon. But I've also luckily had the support of the Asian American Bar Association up in the Bay Area. And for me, that is a really great source of mentorship because you meet people from, you know, all backgrounds, big laws, law, government, and they are such a great resource if you're thinking about, you know, what trajectory is your career going in. If you have some, anything you want to discuss us about your career that you might not necessarily feel as comfortable talking about within the firm. There's a resource for you outside the firm. And so I actually, I guess, want to talk about my experience seeking mentorship and getting help with the Bar Association. And that has been a really good experience for me.

Bareeq: Thank you so much for sharing, Julia. And I also love that you mentioned the Asian Bar Association, because I think that's a great resource. And even thinking outside the box, like what other organizations can I kind of look to to make those connections and relationships? I could definitely talk to you all all day because you have such eye opening experiences that I think so many of us can learn from. But as we wrap up, I guess my last question will be to all aspiring first-generation law students and other first-generation attorneys listening, especially those of diverse background, what advice would you give them? How can they navigate the pressures of feeling the need to go, quote-unquote, that extra mile? Rizzy, I'll start with you.

Rizwan: Yeah, thank you. I'll say going the extra mile, similar to what Thuy was saying, I completely agree, which is you not only go the extra mile in your day-to-day substantive legal work, but you have to think about the bigger picture, building your brand and building your practice. Because before you know it, you may be a summer associate or even a law student and a baby lawyer. And then you have to start building your brand and building your practice and going out there and getting work for your colleagues as well as yourself. self. So to me, it's really about tapping into the network. And I'm not saying your network, because our individual networks are limited. They are who we know, who we went to law school with. But it's so important what some of my colleagues have said. It's like, don't wait for that mentor to come knocking on your door to say, hey, I want to help you. You need to go out there and adopt your own mentors. And I did that and I continue to do that. I mean, young people today and young lawyers today in our world that we live in now have so many resources at their disposal where you can go up and look up a client or you can look up a law firm and you can pretty quickly determine how many degrees of separation you have with that one individual with whom you not only have a interest in their practice, but maybe you have a cultural affinity or connection to them. Leverage that. I never would have gotten my federal clerkship if I did not find out the judge that I wanted to clerk for had a former clerk who knew a buddy I went to law school with. So what did I do? I reached out to that buddy and I said, hey, I'm trying to clerk for Judge Johnson in the Eastern District of New York. Do you know this guy, Jason? He's like, oh yeah, he's my boy. My immediate response to my buddy was, well, he's my boy now. Can we do lunch with him? And the rest is history. And the same goes for my trajectory to the US Attorney's Office. So really take ownership of every facet of your life. We get so tied up as lawyers to be type A, and I have to get the best grades, which you do, and I have to do the best work, which you do. But you can't just be doing your best work and getting your best grades inside of a cave. You need to sort of take that out there and learn from others, leverage relationships so that you can continue to excel in whatever it is you want to do.

Bareeq: Fantastic. Thank you, Rizzy. Julia, what about you? What advice would you be giving to other first-generation attorneys or aspiring law students that are first-generation?

Julia: I think it's really important to keep an open mind and stay curious. So not only do you, I think, have to actively pursue what you want, but I think you still need to keep an open mind to figure out what you do want. Coming from a background where I think my parents just expected me to go excel in whatever career I wanted to do, they were not very understanding when at first I wasn't that excited about immediately going into middle. I wanted to have different experiences before I made my way into big law. And I think there's a lot of opportunities out there for lawyers who want to explore and learn a little bit more about the legal career, about themselves before they transition into big law. And I think that is perfectly acceptable. I know that a lot of Asian Americans just, they want to be the best and that's very commendable, but you can be the best in all sorts of different legal areas.

Bareeq: Yeah. And there's something to be said about being the best for yourself, like best version of you, because it's not good. The best is not going to be for the best for everybody. And really knowing yourself and what what you want to do. And last but not least, Thuy, what are your thoughts?

Thuy: Thanks, Bareeq. I'm going to echo what Rizzy said and just, again, hone in on the importance of going to events. And I don't want to call it networking. I hate that word of just connecting with people and getting to know people because you want to. I think as immigrants, the way we're taught by our parents is you just need to keep your head down, do your best work. And so it's very easy to be in a big law firm where there's a billable hours requirement to say, I'm not going to go to that happy hour. I'm not going to go to that alumni event because I should get this memo out or I should bill another two hours. But you know like Rizzy said one of the more important things is to get to know people it's for your career and this is your career you get what you put into it you know Casey Ryan our Global Managing Partner knows me by name but she doesn't know me because i do i draft a awesome real estate contract she knows me because i go to events when she's in town i go to see her When I'm seeing her, I'm seeing maybe other members of senior management, my own colleagues I grow up with, connecting with them, commiserating with them sometimes. Talking about our families and our dogs, what have you. Just having this community to lean onto to succeed together so that one day, if you need help or if they need help, they're there for you. It just makes this very big firm feel like a much smaller, comfortable home.

Bareeq: I love that. Thank you so much for all this wonderful advice. I know our listeners will really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Thuy, Rizzy, Julia, for sharing your incredible journeys and insights with us today. Your experiences and advice are invaluable to our listeners and to all those aspiring to make their mark in the legal field. Thank you to our listeners for tuning in to Inclusivity Included. Stay tuned for more episodes where we will continue to explore and celebrate diversity, equity, and inclusion. Until next time, have a great rest of the day.

Outro: Inclusivity Included is a Reed Smith production. Our producers are Ali McCardell and Shannon Ryan. You can find our podcasts on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, reedsmith.com, and our social media accounts.

Disclaimer:This podcast is provided for educational purposes. It does not constitute legal advice and is not intended to establish an attorney-client relationship, nor is it intended to suggest or establish standards of care applicable to particular lawyers in any given situation. Prior results do not guarantee a similar outcome. Any views, opinions, or comments made by any external guest speaker are not to be attributed to Reed Smith LLP or its individual lawyers.

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