Noshing With Max Marshall – January 4, 2024

Ira's Everything Bagel

Author, Among the Bros: A Fraternity Crime Story

Welcome to a riveting edition of Ira’s Everything Bagel Podcast. In today’s episode, we delve into a gripping and revealing discussion with Max Marshall, a prominent author and journalist. Max, known for his insightful writing and deep investigations, discusses his latest work, “Among the Bros: A Fraternity Crime Story.” This book unravels the complex web of fraternity life entangled in drug trafficking and societal pressures. To learn more about Max Marshall and his works, visit his website here.

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Max Marshall: The Author and Journalist

Max Marshall, a writer whose roots can be traced back to Texas, has an impressive academic and professional journey. His time at Columbia University, where he graduated summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa in 2016, laid the foundation for his diverse and impactful career. Max’s experiences, including his tenure as a Princeton in Asia Media Fellow in Hanoi, Vietnam, significantly enriched his perspective. His contributions to renowned publications like GQ, Texas Monthly, Sports Illustrated, and the New York Times have earned him a reputable standing in the literary world. Presently residing in Austin, Max continues to explore and write about complex societal issues. Stay updated with Max’s latest endeavors on Twitter.

“Among the Bros: A Fraternity Crime Story” by Max Marshall

In “Among the Bros,” Max Marshall takes readers into the secretive and often misunderstood world of fraternity life. The book is a deep dive into an investigative journey at the College of Charleston, where what appeared to be a minor drug issue revealed a vast and intricate network of illegal activities. Max’s unique position, having been part of Greek life himself, gives him a rare insider perspective. This book is an essential read for anyone interested in the dynamics of fraternity culture and its impact on student life.

The Groundbreaking Investigation

Max Marshall’s “Among the Bros” goes beyond the surface of fraternity life, uncovering a major nationwide drug trafficking ring. His methodical approach to this investigation, as highlighted in the book, demonstrates his exceptional skills as a writer and journalist. This story is not just about the crime but also about the challenges and ethical dilemmas faced in such investigative endeavors.

Inside the World of Greek Life

Through “Among the Bros,” Max Marshall offers an in-depth analysis of Greek life, shedding light on the complexities of social pressures, drug abuse, and the consequences of unchecked privilege and power. He candidly discusses the allure and dangers of these social circles, offering insights into why certain negative behaviors proliferate in these environments.

The Rise of Xanax on College Campuses

One of the central themes of “Among the Bros” is the alarming popularity of Xanax among college students, particularly within fraternities. Max Marshall examines this phenomenon with journalistic rigor, exploring the reasons behind the drug’s widespread use and its alarming consequences. His analysis is crucial for understanding the broader implications of drug culture in academic settings.

The Impact of Marshall’s Work

Max Marshall’s work, particularly in “Among the Bros,” is more than just a story about fraternity life and crime. It’s a poignant commentary on modern societal issues, challenging readers to think critically about the role of education, privilege, and responsibility in shaping young adults’ lives. His writing encourages a deeper understanding and conversation about these critical issues.

Concluding Thoughts on the Podcast Episode

In conclusion, this episode of Ira’s Everything Bagel Podcast with Max Marshall has been an enlightening journey through the pages of “Among the Bros.” We’ve explored the depths of fraternity life, the impact of drug culture in academic settings, and the role of privilege and power in shaping behaviors. As we conclude this thought-provoking conversation, we encourage our listeners to delve deeper into Max Marshall’s works, especially his book “Among the Bros,” which stands as a testament to his skill as an author and a journalist.

Max Marshall’s journey as a writer and journalist, culminating in the creation of “Among the Bros,” reflects a commitment to exploring complex and often controversial topics. His ability to navigate these challenging themes with sensitivity and depth is what sets his work apart. “Among the Bros” is not just a book about fraternity life or a drug trafficking investigation; it’s a mirror held up to society, reflecting the intricacies of human behavior and the consequences of societal norms.

This podcast episode has provided a platform for Max Marshall to share his insights and experiences. His storytelling, backed by meticulous research and personal experience, makes “Among the Bros” a compelling read. We thank Max for joining us on Ira’s Everything Bagel Podcast and for providing such a profound understanding of the themes discussed in his book.

For our listeners, this episode is a reminder of the power of investigative journalism and the importance of understanding the societies we live in. Max Marshall, as both an author and a journalist, exemplifies the role of literature and journalism in initiating important conversations and bringing hidden truths to light. We invite you to engage further with Max’s work and join the ongoing dialogue about the complexities of modern society.

FAQs About Author Max Marshall

Who is Max Marshall?

Max Marshall is an American journalist and author, born in 1993. He attended St. Mark’s School of Texas and Columbia University, graduating summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa. He has written for various notable publications, including GQ, Texas Monthly, and Sports Illustrated. His first book, “Among the Bros: A Fraternity Crime Story,” investigates a fraternity-linked drug trafficking ring. He splits his time between Dallas and Brooklyn.

Is Max Marshall Married?

There is no publicly available information confirming whether Max Marshall is married. His personal life details, including marital status, are not widely covered in the sources reviewed.

What is Max Marshall’s Age?

Max Marshall was born in 1993, making him 31 years old as of 2024.

What is Max Marshall Known For?

Max Marshall is known for his investigative journalism and his debut book, “Among the Bros: A Fraternity Crime Story.” The book explores a multi-million-dollar Xanax trafficking ring connected to fraternities at the College of Charleston. He has also written extensively on various topics, including corruption and high-profile criminal cases​.

What is Max Marshall’s Book “Among The Bros” About?

“Among the Bros: A Fraternity Crime Story” is an investigative book by Max Marshall that delves into a drug trafficking ring linked to American college fraternities. The book uncovers how fraternity members at the College of Charleston were involved in manufacturing and distributing millions of Xanax pills. It provides an in-depth look at the dark side of fraternity culture and its connections to larger criminal enterprises.

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Talking with Max Marshall Full Transcript
Ira Sternberg:
Welcome to Iris Everything Bagel, where I talk with intriguing people about everything – their passions, pursuits, and points of view. Here are some facts that may surprise you. 80% of Fortune 500 Executives, 85% of Supreme Court Justices, and all but four presidents since 1825 have been fraternity members. Now, that’s all Greek life to me, but not to my guest, Max Marshall. Max arrived on the campus of the College of Charleston in 2018, originally intending to investigate a small-time trafficking ring, but as he started reporting, it became clear the scope of the crimes was far bigger than what was made public, including several student deaths, a nationwide trafficking network, and the seizure of $21 Million worth of Black Market Xanax. His comprehensive reporting is now in a new book, “Among the Bros: A Fraternity Crime Story,” published by Harbor Books and available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and all the usual places. For everything about Max Marshall, go to maxenmarshall.com and follow him on X atore will never tweet. And Max, welcome to the show.
Max Marshall:
Thank you so much, glad to be here.
Ira Sternberg:
Why did you end up on the campus of the College of Charleston to begin with? What brought you there?
Max Marshall:
So yeah, I was in college at the same time as all the guys in this book, 2012 to 2016. I was not at the College of Charleston; I went to college at Columbia, but I grew up in the South. Um, basically, all of my high school friends joined fraternities; both my parents were in Greek life, and I joined a fraternity. When I was in Greek life, I saw a lot of Xanax going around, both as a sort of anti-anxiety weeknight drug but more so as this sort of weekend party drug. And I had friends who were dealing, I had friends who were using, I even had friends who were making their own Xanax. When I became an investigative journalist after college, I had a few questions. One was, you know, why is this anti-anxiety tranquilizer sort of the it drug of our generation? So you know, you kind of think of, uh, the 60s, maybe associated with weed, or if people are having even more fun, acid. You know, you think of the 80s, you might think of cocaine, but it’s sort of odd that the sort of it party drug, the most common thing I really saw at parties, um, maybe besides weed or the more extreme parties, it really was the most common thing is something that was designed for panic attacks and seizures. So I wanted to investigate that, and then also I had the kind of simple question of where are all these drugs coming from? Because I was seeing a lot of fake Xanax. It wasn’t coming from CVS or Pfizer; it was coming from, uh, kind of these unmarked boxes that people would ship to dorm rooms. And so I did the very investigative journalist thing of Googling “Xanax bust fraternity” because most of the X was in fraternity life, and the first result was this great piece in the Charleston Post and Courier about a small-time campus drug ring, and it said they got caught with 44,000 Xanax pills. So I started doing some reporting, thinking it could be a magazine story or something, and then a, uh, a defense attorney let it slip that it was actually closer to 3 million Xanax pills, and that’s kind of what got me down to Charleston.
Ira Sternberg:
Amazing. Now, you interviewed more than 120 people, right, for this book?
Max Marshall:
I did, yeah. And you know, it was hard at first because fraternity bubbles are very closed off, and you know, people don’t really want to talk to you if you’re sort of even wanting to learn about hazing, let alone drug trafficking and murder and all sorts of things. Um, but yeah, you know, sort of slowly, you start to earn the trust of sources, you read thousands of police files, you talk to as many people as you can, and ultimately, you know, people start recommending, “oh, you should talk to my friend, you should talk to my friend,” and it sort of ultimately led me to the main character in the book, Mikey Schmidt, who was serving 10 years in prison and at the time had a black market cell phone smuggled to him, um, in his jail cell. And so we started talking, and once he sort of learned how much I knew about the story, he felt ready to tell his side of the story, and things really opened up from there. He doesn’t have a phone anymore, but it was, uh, yeah, while we were kind of captive audiences for each other.
Ira Sternberg:
It sounds though that you approached this forthrightly, and what I mean is that you didn’t disguise what you were doing when you were talking to all these people. You said, “listen, I’m writing a book, or I’m doing a story about this phenomenon, and I want you to talk to me.” You didn’t, in essence, go undercover, or was there part of it undercover?
Max Marshall:
No, I mean, it really was all, “hey, I’m writing a, a story.” You know, it started by just, “I want to write about Xanax on college campuses and Xanax and fraternities.” Um, and then once I found this specific story, it became, “I’m writing about, you know, this specific drug ring, and, um, the murder and the, the police stings, and the betrayals, and, you know, all of that.” But no, I, I never went undercover, although, you know, as a southern guy who was in a fraternity, I definitely led with that when I would talk to these guys, because it is a very closed bubble, and I think the fact that I kind of spoke the language and sort of at least had one foot inside the bubble made a huge difference in the beginning.
Ira Sternberg:
And the fact your parents were in that world as well?
Max Marshall:
Definitely, yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s all, you know, it’s all pretty multigenerational. Um, I something I, you know, you kind of find when you start to look into, um, fraternities, and I think it’s, it’s something that’s not really talked about enough because it’s often talked about through the lens of race or gender, and those are important lenses, but really, the Greek life system is sort of a breeding ground for the American elite, right? It’s like that statistic you read in the beginning. There’s also the statistic, you know, something like over 70% of every dollar given to American universities comes from Greek life alumni. So it just gives you a sense of the amount of wealth in that system, and it’s kind of always been that way. When fraternities started in the 1800s, they started basically because, um, up until that point, American universities were only for the elite, basically only kids from, only men from sort of upper crust families went to schools like, you know, Princeton or Amherst or all the sort of old American, mostly Northeastern schools. And then in the 1800s, all of a sudden, middle-class students started showing up, mostly to study to become pastors. And all the guys from, you know, elite areas basically looked around and said, “well, we don’t want to drink with those guys, so how can we start our own club?” And that’s kind of what fraternities have always been, and they kind of still are that. And because of that, you have this system that just repeats and repeats, and it’s sort of like, you talk to a lot of people, and they’re like, “oh yeah, my dad was a Ka, his daddy was a Ka, and I’m a Ka.” And, um, it’s almost funny, you can look at the composites, which is the sort of, uh, the collection of photos of every member in a fraternity. If you go to these old fraternity houses, you can look at the composite from 2022 and the composite from 1902, and you’ll see the same haircuts, the same styles, the same racial makeup, and sometimes even the same last names. And so yeah, there’s this sense of this kind of continuity that, uh, people are very protective of.
Ira Sternberg:
Is there a danger of inbreeding, in a sense? Not sexual inbreeding, but just, as you describe, Greek life through the century, uh, is there a chance of inbreeding where it becomes a little too cult-like, a little too groupthink, and then certain things are tolerated that wouldn’t be tolerated in the larger society, such as the Xanax issue?
Max Marshall:
Definitely. I mean, I think anytime you see sort of a closed-off bubble where there’s a lot of secrecy, and, um, sort of these rituals that just take on a sort of momentum of their own, you know, there’s also obviously a lot beautiful about tradition, but when the tradition involves, you know, uh, waterboarding a kid during pledge, you know, hell week, yeah, I mean, of course, there’s, there’s a dangerous level of groupthink there. But the weird thing is, you know, I think another thing people get wrong about fraternities is they imagine kind of, you know, the way fraternities are written about, people imagine that kids kind of get tricked into joining them by these nice older guys who kind of charm them, bring them in, give them punch and cookies, and then next thing you know, the boys are being, you know, uh, paddled in a basement, and it, and they regret it for the rest of their lives. But when I talk to guys, and, you know, this is true in my own fraternity as well, people love to tell their hazing stories. People knew they were going to get hazed when they went in, and most guys you talk to, you know, don’t really regret it. They think it was either funny or formative, or, you know, led to trauma bonding, um. So it’s this sort of odd thing where, um, maybe the groupthink is just so strong that a guy will look you in the eyes and say, like, “I don’t regret getting waterboarded so I could become an SA.”
Ira Sternberg:
It’s funny because I was thinking about the word Xanax. That could be the name of a fraternity as well.
Max Marshall:
That’s funny, that sense, yeah. Definitely, um, I’m gonna go pledge ver Xanax now. Yeah.
Ira Sternberg:
Well, yeah, I mean, certainly some guys basically did, yeah. But yeah, yeah. Sorry, go.
Max Marshall:
No, I was gonna say, did you, you mentioned earlier, you put, you had a great opportunity because of your connection with Greek life to get information, but did you ever hear back after the book came out from any of these people you talked to or others that felt that you quote-unquote betrayed them, or betrayed the Greek life because you exposed this situation?
Max Marshall:
You know, the people have been reaching out to me for the most part have been like, you know, “thank you for shining light on this issue,” or “think you got the story right.” Um, you know, I think if a few people, uh, it’s funny, people really quibble about their ranking in the Greek ecosystem. So at College of Charleston, you know, uh, some people think SAE and Pike are the two best fraternities there, but there were guys in other fraternities like, um, Kappa Sig who were upset that I said that SA was the best. So they’re objecting to that part of it, but not in terms of the expose. Exactly. But I do think, uh, it, it has been, if you look at, for instance, like the Goodreads reviews or something, which I’ve stopped doing after day one, that I did. But, uh, I do think there are some guys in the fraternities who haven’t even read the book, who then go on and, uh, just bash it. But ultimately, I don’t know, it’s, it’s kind of fascinating to me. A lot of guys in this story, especially when they found out that Sony Pictures had optioned the book before it came out, they wanted to talk to me because they, they, you know, they would say, “Can I play myself in the movie?” So I think there’s also, there’s some almost element of, uh, I don’t know if pride is the right word, but like, yeah, you know, so much of being a fraternity guy in the best fraternities, it’s basically, “look what I can get away with, look at how crazy my weekend was, look at how wild I am.” And there’s prestige in that because you can only really afford to go out seven nights a week and break a bunch of things and burn things and break the law, um, and still get away with it if you’re in a position of pretty incredible power. It’s like, “oh, I can still, I can get a DUI, but my parents will bail me out,” or “I can miss class all year, but my family connections will still get me a great internship when the year is over.” And, you know, uh, our fraternity can burn down a log cabin, which is something that basically happens in the beginning of the book, but the alumni will step in and pay for it. And I think this story, in some ways, is a very extreme example of the sort of, uh, prestige that comes with breaking a lot of rules. And I think there’s a, maybe a pervert sort of pride in basically saying, yeah, “look at, look at how crazy we were.”
Ira Sternberg:
Well, you referenced the alumni. It would seem to me that when you reach a certain age and you’re out in society and regular society for a period of time, that maybe you try to dampen down some of that privilege for people that are getting into problems. Doesn’t that create a culture of immorality after a while?
Max Marshall:
Yeah, I mean, I, I would argue that it does. Um, but I think, I, I’m always surprised, you know, and it’s usually a small sliver of alumni. There’s, of you know, a lot of alumni sort of enjoy their fraternity, and then they move on, and they become more interested in their country club, or, or whatever it is they join next, or their church, or their Fortune 500 company, or whatever. But you do meet these alumni who continue to come back every year, um, for tailgates, or Dad’s weekend, or they try to join, you know, the board of the chapter who, so much of their life is really wrapped around, like, how can I continue, you know, I had to go through this, I, you know, why, you know, why can’t boys go through it now, um, and that, yeah, that never really goes away.
Max Marshall:
Did you ever fear for your safety when you were investigating and writing this story again? It’s called “Among the Bros: A Fraternity Crime Story,” published by Harbor Books.
Max Marshall:
So yeah, anytime you’re investigating a murder and drug trafficking, there’s obviously going to be fear. You know, I’ve done stories about, uh, corrupt Thai, corrupt military juntas, uh, Southeast Asian, Vietnamese, Canadian drug traffickers who are connected to El Chapo, and in some senses, this was a, a tougher reporting haul than those stories. People are even more closed off in the fraternity bubble than they are in those other bubbles. But at the same time, um, I think the fear is more maybe a lawsuit, or, uh, a mean Goodreads review than it is violence, just because, um, we are mostly talking about, the main enforcement mechanism in this, in this drug ring wasn’t violence, although violence did occur. The main enforcement mechanism was sort of the social pressure of Greek life and people not wanting to look bad among their boys, um, and so yeah, there were some moments of fear, you know, investigating specifically the murder of Patrick Moffle, um, but I think ultimately, um, you know, it was, it was okay, and now that I’m done reporting, and now that, uh, I’m not going to ever look into it again, uh, I think we can all move on and, you know, keep our lives going.
Ira Sternberg:
Well, there’s a big jump between what you called the, well, I’m going to paraphrase it, the high jinks that normally go on, including if you will, the burning of the, of the log cabin and other things you can get away with, to this major distribution of drugs. So how did it morph into that, and were any alumni involved as part of that? Or did any, any alumni react negatively to your story about the fact that look at, look where it’s gotten out of control here, out of hand?
Max Marshall:
Definitely, I mean, so yeah, I mean, I sort of thought of it as, you know, uh, you’re on, you’re at a beach party, and the sun is shining, and someone hands you a beer, and everything’s fun, and then you step into the water, and the water feels good, and you’re still drinking, and then you start swimming out a little further from the water, and the party is still going on, everything’s crazy, and while you’re sort of drinking in the water, you feel the riptide pull you out a little further and further. But you’re so distracted by the party that by the time you look around, you’re thrashing, you know, miles away from the shore, and you have really no idea, uh, how you got there. And I do think that’s sort of the experience of a lot of these guys is, um, at every step of the way, there were no consequences for whatever smaller laws they were breaking, um, whether it was, you know, felony hazing, whether it was, uh, drug possession, small-time drug dealing, uh, a kidnapping that happened during a pledge night, all these things ended up in really no consequences for anyone. And to me, if there is sort of an eat your vegetables sort of moral lesson about the book, it might be about the consequence of a life without consequences. Because at each step of the way, these guys would get away with something, and I think the sort of natural conclusion if you can get away with anything is to see how much you can get away with. And they continued to push and push, and yeah, it ultimately did get into big-time drug trafficking. But even then, of everyone who’s involved, dozens and dozens of boys, only one is in jail right now, and one fraternity, uh, Kappa Alpha Order, was kicked off campus but came back four years later, and the other, SAE, was never kicked off campus at all. And so if anything, that sort of, uh, never-ending party and lack of consequences just continued.
Ira Sternberg:
So, similar to the broken windows theory, if you don’t catch crime when it’s just a broken window, it just keeps escalating.
Max Marshall:
Yeah, and I think, you know, on some level, it’s not even, you know, I, I don’t think this book is arguing for stronger drug laws, but when you have this sort of obviously very uneven system where, uh, some people, if you have the right lawyers, or the right connections, or the right amount of money, can get bailed out of basically anything, then, you know, it’s pretty natural to sort of keep hitting your head against the wall and thinking you’re not going to get a concussion.
Ira Sternberg:
Right. What was the reaction of the College of Charleston to the book?
Max Marshall:
You know, I had some good conversations with, uh, some people from the, the CFC before the book came out, um, but I haven’t actually heard from them since, um, and I, I don’t think they released a statement or anything, as far as I know, so, um, yeah, I’m, I’m curious, but I’m, I’m not actually sure.
Ira Sternberg:
What was the most surprising thing you found out in your reporting and investigation over that time period? Was it, was there anything there that shocked you particularly, given your background in Greek life? Not that all Greek life is the same as what you wrote the book about, but just, were there things that shocked even you?
Max Marshall:
Yeah, I mean, it, it wasn’t until about six months to a year into reporting that I found out that the same chapter that, um, the president of the fraternity, and then two other boys, were arrested in this drug ring, um, and they had other boys involved as well, so it’s one of the central nodes of the drug ring. Four years before the drug bust, they had, um, basically three boys die within six months, and two die in one weekend, um. Two were recent alumni, but they still were involved in the fraternity; one was an active member. But I do think I was surprised. Three deaths in half a year and two deaths in one weekend is, you would think, this sort of thing that everyone would talk about, everyone would know about, that there would have been some massive consequence for. But instead, I guess part of it is the system of college, you know, the institutional memory gets wiped out every four years, but most kids didn’t even know it had happened. And so, you have this drug bust that’s, you know, massive in scale, occurring in 2016, and then you look back at that same chapter four years earlier, having all those deaths, and nothing sort of being learned or changed from it. That did, that did really surprise me.
Ira Sternberg:
Was there any pushback from the families of the boys that were dead? In other words, did they go against that Greek wall, you know?
Max Marshall:
So I talked to two of the three families, and both of them wanted to make it very clear that they didn’t blame the fraternities or the college. You know, they, their children were responsible for their own choices, in terms of, you know, substance use, and, and everything else, um. But of course, there was also, yeah, just, I think the parents also wanted to talk because they wanted to warn other parents about, “hey, look, for instance, like, your kid is probably going to see a lot of Xanax when they show up to college.” And a lot of kids, when they show up to college, they don’t know anything about Xanax. They’re warned about smoking weed, or they’re warned about binge drinking, or maybe, you know, whichever drugs we deem “hard drugs,” but Xanax is, in some sense, much harder a drug than the things we call hard drugs. It’s one of two substances you can die from withdrawals; it’s so addictive, um. And in the same amount of time, the last 20 years, that Fentanyl and opioid overdoses have gone up 8X, I want to say Xanax overdoses have gone up 10 or 12X. So we’re really looking at sort of a hidden epidemic here, and those parents really did want to kind of share that and warn other parents.
Ira Sternberg:
What is it about the mentality within that world, though, that as you just outlined, this is a dangerous drug, so they’re in, in essence, glamorizing the drug, even though there are deadly consequences, in some cases? Is there nobody in that system, and I say that system, unofficial system, the life, there’s nobody that takes a step back and says, you know, “maybe we shouldn’t be pushing this stuff, and maybe we should do something else, maybe go back to beer?”
Max Marshall:
Yeah, no, I mean, certainly, you will find people, you know, I talked to a few guys at KA at CFC, for instance, who said, “yeah, I stood up at a chapter meeting and was like, you know, why are y’all taking so much of this, why are you all dealing so much of this?” Um, but these things kind of tend to have a momentum of their own, and because, like you said, it’s an unofficial system, in a lot of ways. And in some ways, it’s a very formal system, you know, you, there’s pledging, and houses, and traditions, and things, but also it’s this sort of informal roving party, um, some kids opt in, some kids opt out, and there seems to be too much social cost at sort of being the prude that wants to say, “hey guys, why don’t we order a pizza instead?” You know what I mean? So I think the, the response often is sort of just keep your head down and do what you’re gonna do if you don’t want to be doing Xanax.
Ira Sternberg:
I guess, so in other words, you could be still participating in Greek life without taking Xanax, just don’t yell about it or talk about it or argue about it.
Max Marshall:
Exactly, and, you know, that having been said, you also see, and I, I saw this in the book, people will spike the punch at parties with Xanax, um, and this was very common at a lot of different fraternities. And that’s the kind of thing where ultimately only, you know, one or two guys have to decide that’s what we’re going to do at a party, but everyone is going to reap the consequences of it, um, especially the female guests. So it’s in some ways, everyone’s implicated sometimes, and sometimes it’s something that you can kind of tell yourself, “oh, that’s happening over there, and I don’t have anything to do with it.”
Ira Sternberg:
It just seems, based on your writing, that you have this system in place, both formal and informal, or official and unofficial, that certain things go on, and there’s a larger community, which is the college administration, and faculty, and stu as well, and it would seem that the tail’s wagging the dog, I guess is what I’m saying. Is that true, in that sense, that there’s not a big push for the administration of a college to enforce certain basic laws, and basic mores, and, and basic morality, I guess, for want of…
Max Marshall:
Yeah, yeah, I mean, in some senses, you know, you’ll see, for instance, in 2016, there was a huge, a lot of schools on fraternities systems, and, um, a lot of chapters were getting what people thought was kicked off campus. Instead, they were actually getting suspended, and they most of them came back after four years, just like what happened at College of Charleston. But there is this broader sort of push and pull that started in the 60s, of the in loco parentis laws, of basically, college administrations used to sort of see themselves as having this sort of paternal role over students. And part of the sort of, of 60s protests that happened at a lot of college campuses was basically saying like, “hands off, like, we don’t want a curfew, we don’t want you telling us what we can or can’t do, we don’t you policing our morality.” And I do think we’re still seeing the fruits of that, in a lot of great ways, but also, you know, the flip side can be, um, a lot of this stuff is pretty unregulated. And I think, especially once you get these sort of off-campus mansions that, which you know, fraternity houses often are, that are sort of owned by alumni housing boards, they’re not run by the school, but they’re also in an area where the only policemen are sort of campus policemen with golf carts and flashlights. It’s this weird sort of, uh, middle zone, where they’re on private property, but they’re on a college campus, they’re adults, but really, they’re kind of kids with, you know, using their parents’ money, and, um, it’s this very sort of sweet spot for some pretty wild behavior.
Ira Sternberg:
Before I let you go, what do you want people to take away from your book?
Max Marshall:
Well, I mean, I think, I certainly didn’t want to spoon-feed any messages, and on some ways, you know, it’s like a page-turning crime story with lots of twists and absurd characters and behavior. But I do want people to think about the consequence of a world without consequences. And I also do want people to think about, you know, why are these guys, whose social safety net is so plush, it’s basically a hammock, you know, guys with really everything you could ever want, and, you know, the late American Empire at the very top of the social pyramid, why do these guys feel so anxious that they need to black out on anti-anxiety tranquilizers? What’s going on? And I think the book, you know, gives some answers to that question, but it also, you know, hopefully just opens up that question for any reader, and, and yeah, I think that’s, that’s a good starting point for, for a takeaway.
Ira Sternberg:
Well, that’s a great way to leave it. My guest has been Max Marshall, he’s the author of “Among the Bros: A Fraternity Crime Story,” published by Harper Books. It’s available on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and all the usual places. And for everything about Max Marshall, go to maxenmarshall.com, and you can follow him on x atore will never tweet. And Max, thanks for being on the show.
Max Marshall:
Thank you so much. I really enjoyed that.
Ira Sternberg:
Same here. And join us every Thursday for a new smear on Iris Everything Bagel.

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