Episode 64: Stephen Kinzer - MK-Ultra and Sidney Gottlieb

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Stephen Kinzer is a former "New York Times" correspondent, is a Senior Fellow in International and Public Affairs at Brown University, and is the author of "Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control."

During our conversation, Stephen talks about the goals of the MK-Ultra program, its leader Sidney Gottlieb, its record of physical and psychological torture, its secrecy from the public, how it brought LSD into America, and how its existence was revealed to the public.

The MK-Ultra program started in 1953 and the public was unaware of it and its abuses for more than 20 years. Because so much of its documentation was destroyed, we'll likely never know the full extent of MK-Ultra's activity and its abuses of power. But, we can learn that it existed, it was real, and it was fully rationalized in its time.

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(00:00) Introduction

(02:17) Sidney Gottlieb: the most powerful, unknown American of the 20th century

(06:51) What is the CIA’s MK Ultra program?

(14:01) The nefarious aspects of MK Ultra’s experiments

(16:52) Gottlieb’s interest in clinical experiments with LSD

(22:14) Charles Manson and the MK Ultra program

(24:44) MK Ultra’s two-step program to first blow out, then control, people’s minds

(32:51) How hepatitis patients react to LSD

(37:29) MK Ultra was above of the law

(44:32) The personal life of Sidney Gottlieb

(51:03) Scientific conclusions from the MK Ultra program

(53:11) How the public learned about MK Ultra

(55:27) Is something like MK Ultra going on today?

(59:46) Don't swallow the narrative you're fed by government and power