Ep 64 Urban Farmer Natasha Nicholes

Midlife Mixtape

“Life is fleeting”: Urban homesteader Natasha Nicholes on how her farm on the South Side of Chicago has created community, why loss has shaped the way she views opportunity, and that time Harry Connick surprised her with a spa day.

• Houseful of Nicholes – Natasha’s blog
• We Sow We Grow on Facebook
• Natasha on Instagram
• Midlife Mixtape Ep 27 Empathy Expert Dr. Kelsey Crowe

The scream, tho

And here’s some Avery Sunshine…woooowwwww!Thanks as always to M. The Heir Apparent, who provides the music behind the podcast – check him out here! ***This is a rough transcription of Episode 64 of the Midlife Mixtape Podcast. It originally aired on October 8, 2019. Transcripts are created using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and there may be errors in this transcription, but we hope that it provides helpful insight into the conversation. If you have any questions or need clarification, please email [e-mail] ***

Natasha Nicholes 00:00

Life is not stopping at all. It’s not slowing down. And I can either sit here and wallow, or I can get up and do something.

00:09

Welcome to Midlife Mixtape, The Podcast. I’m Nancy Davis Kho and we’re here to talk about the years between being hip and breaking one.

[THEME MUSIC – “Be Free” by M. The Heir Apparent]

Nancy 00:34

The presenting sponsor of The Midlife Mixtape Podcast is Goldenvoice. That’s right, I’m now working with Goldenvoice to tell you about the concerts that they’re bringing to the Bay Area in the hopes you’ll get out and check them out. And if not here, then take a look for these performers as they come to venues near you.

Goldenvoice in Stanford Live presents Willie Nelson and Family in concert on Saturday, October 12th at the Frost Amphitheater in Palo Alto. My guest today and I talked a bit about how suffering loss in life reminds us that you don’t have forever. And that’s exactly why a year ago, I went by myself to see Willie Nelson in concert. It was the first time I’d ever gone to see a show alone, but I didn’t want to someday regret that I’d never seen Willie play live, and it was a super fun night. And so great to hear him perform songs like “My Heroes Have Always Been Cowboys” and “On the Road Again”. I encourage you to check out Willie Nelson. His son Lucas is a special guest with his band Promise of the Real and they’re getting tons of buzz of their own. They’ll be live at the Stanford Campus on October 12th. For more information go to frostamphitheatre.com.

[MUSIC]

Nancy Davis Kho

Hi, everybody. Welcome back to the Midlife Mixtape Podcast. I hope you’re subscribed wherever you listen, so you don’t miss an episode. Make sure you hit that subscribe button.

This is Nancy Davis Kho and I’m a few days into being an empty nester, and so far, it’s mostly been defined by a lack of running the dishwasher or needing to fill the car with gas. My husband and I did go see a great Vampire Weekend concert on Tuesday night and who did I run into in the lobby of this concert venue with thousands of people but the other ballet carpool mom who also doesn’t have to drive on Tuesday nights anymore. I guess that’s how we’re going to be filling our free time.

We’re less than two months away from the publication of my book, The Thank-You Project: Cultivating Happiness One Letter of Gratitude at a Time. And I was thrilled that Kirkus Reviews had a really lovely review of the book in their October 1st issue, the one that has Margaret Atwood on the cover, so I’m hoping to soak up some of Margaret Atwood’s juju through page-to-page osmosis. I hope the book will be a motivational and funny guide for people who want to inject their lives and the lives of the people they love with more gratitude, so if you want to check it out, you can pre order The Thank-You Project online everywhere and in bookstores now. Go to www.daviskho.com for more information.

Also, once you’ve listened to today’s episode, let me know what you think of it! You can email me at [e-mail], or find me on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram @midlifemixtape, so I hope I’ll run into you in those places.

Today’s guest is urban farmer Natasha Nicholes. What started out as a project to grow her own food and feed her family of six has evolved into something with a purpose much bigger than Natasha could have imagined. As the founder of We Sow We Grow, a Chicago based community garden and nonprofit organization, she’s committed to teaching people how to come together through farming and agriculture. Natasha has been recognized with a Community Champion Award from the American Red Cross and Molina Healthcare. She says that as a black woman who’s passionate about urban homesteading, agriculture, travel and education, everything she does is an act of defying expectations. On her blog Houseful of Nicholes, she talks about all of it, while also documenting her family’s domestic and international travel adventures.

Let’s get down in the dirt with Natasha Nicholes.

[MUSIC]

Nancy Davis Kho

Welcome to the Midlife Mixtape Podcast, Natasha Nicholes. I’m so glad to have you on today.

Natasha Nicholes 04:03

I’m happy to be here.

Nancy 04:04

I send you a virtual hello, a virtual hug, which is probably the kind of hug you prefer the most. I know that’s Natasha’s kind of famous in the blogging world because she’s not a hugger. And she’s not afraid to let you know it and I appreciate that. I really like somebody who gives me a model for how to very kindly and politely articulate what your limits are, so thank you.

Natasha 04:27

I think the correct phrasing would be I’m not a casual hugger. Bloggers hug randomly a lot.

Nancy 04:38

That’s the least of their problems. Oh, dear. Alright. Anyway, Natasha, here’s a question for you. What was your first concert and what were the circumstances?

Natasha 04:50

My first concert was a Legacy and Avery Sunshine concert at the Harold Washington Cultural Center in Chicago.

Nancy 05:00

Okay. You’re gonna have to tell me who that is because I do not know those musicians.

Natasha 05:04

Legacy is a very popular singer within the black community. She is a classically trained opera singer.

Nancy 05:14

Oh, wow.

Natasha 05:15

But she does a lot of R&B and her range is ridiculous.

Nancy 05:22

How old were you?

Natasha 05:24

Oh, God, I was over 30 because I had my twins already.

Nancy 05:26

Oh, my gosh.

Natasha 05:28

Yeah, it was my very first concert. And the circumstance was I had a friend whose friend couldn’t make it. And she invited me last minute. That’s actually how a lot of my opportunities happen. Someone else can’t fill in. It’s the only reason that I’ve been invited to be a bridesmaid in weddings. I’ve never been the first choice. I’ve always been the second.

Nancy 05:51

Oh, my God. Natasha’s coming off the bench. Whatever you need, Natasha is there for you. That’s so funny. Tell me about the second musician too. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to cut you off.

Natasha 06:01

Avery Sunshine is also under R&B and she has a lot of soulful inspiration. That was my first time hearing her and knowing of her. And then I saw her again because the Black McDonald’s Operators Association hosted a concert with her as well. She’s just become one of the people that I really love listening to.

Nancy 06:26

Well, you know, I always include music video with the show notes for every episode that we do. I’ll email you after and you can tell me the two favorite performances by those guys. And we’ll make those the videos that go with the episode.

Natasha 06:36

Okay.

Nancy 06:37

Have you gone back to a concert since? Has anyone said, “Hey, Natasha, so-and-so dropped out, want to go to another show with me?”

Natasha 06:44

No.

Nancy 06:45

You can actually buy your own tickets. Did you know that’s a thing?

Natasha 06:48

The first concert that I actually had a ticket for me, and I wasn’t asked last minute was Bruno Mars, who’s one of my favorites.

Nancy 06:58

Oh, you love Bruno Mars.

Natasha 06:59

I absolutely love that fun-sized man. He’s amazing.

Nancy 07:06

He is a good dancer.

Natasha 07:08

He’s so incredibly talented. And a lot of people don’t realize how many songs he’s actually written and how many he wrote before he became popular. So that was my next biggest one.

Nancy 07:02

Well, I had fun getting ready to talk to you. I went back and looked at a lot of lot of stuff on your website, which is housefulofnicholes.com. Do you want to tell people how to find you?

Natasha 07:30

Oh, you can find me everywhere outside of my blog under Natasha Nicholes. And that’s Nicholes with an E, N-I-C-H-O-L-E-S and my blog covers everything from travel to homesteading in a large city like Chicago. And just general thoughts and ramblings that I have every now and again.

Nancy 07:50

And we’re going to talk about all of that. One of the clips, though, that I saw on the blog was when Harry Connick came over and babysat your kids.

Natasha 07:59

Yes.

Nancy 08:00

Well, you went out and had a spa day. Now, most of us don’t have that experience, Natasha. A lot of times Harry Connick does not come to my house and surprise me with a spa day. And the scream you gave when you opened the door to see him there, I think he’s probably still having ringing in his ears. I think that’s all I’m gonna say. You guys should go check out her website, which we’ll be talking about. Go watch that clip. Because, again, Harry Connick came over and babysat Natasha’s four kids so that she could go to a spa day.

Natasha 08:30

And he’s very easy on the eyes.

Nancy 08:34

He’s not hard on them, I will say that. Alright. Take me back to the moment when you decided to start Houseful of Nicholes. What was it that impelled you to start this blog where you talk about all of those different areas?

Natasha 08:48

I was heavily pregnant with two babies, my third and my fourth child. And like everybody, this pregnancy, which actually happened to be my fifth pregnancy, but my third and fourth live births left me feeling like I didn’t know what the heck that I was doing. Because obviously when you add another baby in there.

Nancy 09:09

When you double the size of your family in one fell swoop.

Natasha 09:10

Yeah, mom brain is tripled. And you think that you don’t know what the heck you’re going to do even though you’ve done it before. And I went researching and I didn’t see anything that resonated with me at all. And I decided to start writing about my experience. And I was on Blogger, so that should let you know how long ago that was. Not Typepad but Blogger.

Nancy 09:34

The olden days of blogging.

Natasha 09:36

Yes, the very old. And I wanted to create a space where people were able to hear me talk incessantly about my pregnancy without me having to see their eye rolls or hear their gasps because they were annoyed.

Nancy 09:49

You would have been looking for a voice that spoke to being a twin mom and specifically an African American twin mom, right? And then you became that voice.

Natasha 09:57

Right. I don’t want to like name drop sites. The sites were helpful. But there was never ever anybody who looked or had my background. So typically, they were on their second set of twins. They knew this already or they were older, which is, you know, no, shade at all, but a little bit more subtle than I then I was.

Nancy 10:22

You are quite young, even now, even though nine years later. You must have been 30. So, you were 30 when you started that, because you’re still not 40. But you’re knocking on its door…

Natasha 10:32

I am excited too. I’m excited to turn 40. I just felt like nobody had any insight. And I mean, nine years out, I know that there were people who had insight. They just didn’t SEO their stuff.

Nancy 10:46

To put it bluntly, they didn’t SEO their stuff.

Natasha 10:49

Properly.

Nancy 10:50

That was their problem. The way to non-bloggers, that’s search engine optimized. That means making yourself easy to find. Sorry, that was a little bit inside baseball.

Natasha 11:00

Correct. And now I realize I go back and look at stuff. And the writing is blunt, but it’s horrible. The photos are horrible. But it was who I was at that time. So I don’t want to erase any of that because in the 39 years that I’ve lived, now, I’m starting to realize that erasing certain parts of things and getting rid of those things cuts off a specific part of my life. And I’ve had a pretty rough and tumble past 20 years. I can hold on to a lot of things that other people don’t.

Nancy 11:31

I think that’s such a wise way to look at it. Because a lot of us feel so paralyzed about starting new things because we’re afraid we’re going to be terrible at those things in the beginning. And yes, here’s the secret, you probably are. But you’ll get better. I’ve told this story on the podcast before how many times I re-taped episode one, like, 8000 times. And finally, my dear friend, our dear friend, Ann Imig, was like, “No, you get one more go. And then you hit publish. And that’s it.”

And then I look back at all my early episodes, I’m up to 63 now. I’ve learned a lot. Things would be different in those episodes if I were recording them now, but I wouldn’t know that stuff now. I’m glad you recognize it for what it is…Somebody used this term the other day, gosh, I’ve got to think who told me this. They said, “It’s compost. You know, it’s all compost for what you’re doing now.”

Natasha 12:28

Oh, and you know that I love that analogy.

Nancy 12:30

I can’t wait to get to that part of the interview. But look, before we switch over to composting questions: Can you talk a little bit about the evolution of the Houseful of Nicholes, you know, as a platform, as a media company?

Natasha 12:43

Oh, gosh. We’re kind of everywhere. And I still don’t have that perfect aesthetic at all because my life is not a perfect aesthetic. I share a lot of times in the moment. And a lot of times those hit heavily with my audience. We do quite a bit of video, especially from the farm, the urban farm.

And we also talk a lot about real life things. I’ve spoken about depression, I’ve spoken about loss, I’ve spoken about sex in relationships with my husband, and I think any other person would be like, oh, is this really a good idea? Is this really a good idea? But in my head, I’m saying, “I wish that I had this at a certain point. We’re going to go ahead and talk about it.” And we’re going to do it still by being respectful to my husband and my family. So, if my kids or my parents or my grandmother happen to watch, it’s not something like oh my god, she’s talking about what positions they use? No, that’s never ever the case. It’s just one of those things where before I got married, this is what I wish that someone actually sat down and talked about.

Nancy 13:53

Right. I went to this event a couple of weeks ago with an author here in Piedmont neighborhood next door to Oakland. And it was a group of women. It was, you know, a private event at somebody’s house and there was a dinner, and the author was Jen Pastiloff and I’m gonna give her a big shout out because she was delightful. I have not yet read the book On Being Human. But based on the reaction of the 30 women in the room who had read it and had traveled from as far away as Vancouver to be in the living room with her while she talked about it, it sounds like it’s an amazing book and I will talk about it in a future episode. I may have her on in a future episode.

But anyway, the point is that these women… everybody got up and introduced themself and immediately sort of said here’s why this book about truth and authenticity and connection is meaningful to me. And they were sharing these really deep things, you know, people who had medical problems, people who had suffered loss, people who were about to go through a divorce. And I was looking around thinking, gosh, when people share their stories about hardship or trouble or anything, there’s such a high potential that someone else in the room is going to be like, “I feel the same way and I thought I was by myself. I thought I was alone.”

So I really applaud you for the authenticity that you bring in your writing and in all of your content creation in the Houseful of Nicholes stuff because you don’t even know who you’re helping.

Natasha 15:14

Thank you.

Nancy 15:15

You don’t even know, Natasha. Now, I want to turn back to composting. I’m so excited about this whole initiative. It’s you with your husband who is your eighth-grade sweetheart? Is that right?

Natasha 15:29

He is. You are.

Nancy 15:30

Did you meet him on the playground? What’s up?

Natasha 15:32

No, we did not go to school together. We met at church. He will tell you that I pursued him. That is not the truth.

Nancy 15:42

I might be Team Your Husband on this one.

Natasha 15:45

I did not. My parents were super strict. There was no pursuing boys at all.

Nancy 15:55

Did you pursue him, at least, with your glances with your eyes? “Hey, just quietly pursuing you from the pew over here?”

Natasha 16:00

The way our church was made up, he would stand in a door and look up, we would sit in the balcony. And he would look up at me. And yes, I would steal glances and everything.

Nancy 16:12

That’s very dear.

Natasha 16:14

He was the first to speak. So, the whole pursuing came about with him.

Nancy 16:18

Alright. You’ve turned me around. I’m on your side. So together with your husband, you’ve started an initiative called We Sow We Grow. Let’s start off with talking about what We Sow We Grow is and when it started, and I’d really like to know why it started.

Natasha 16:34

We Sow We Grow is a gardening initiative where we run a physical farm while also supporting folks online who want to be able to grow their own food, but do not live within our community.

Nancy 16:49

This is urban farming.

Natasha 16:52

It is. The neighborhood that we decided to move into had quite a few open lots. And they were ugly to me. I asked local leadership if we could transform one of the lots into a community garden. So, it started out as a community garden. But then the community realized that it was actually work. They were okay with purchasing, but not necessarily with giving up a Saturday or days during the week. And it evolved from a community garden to an urban farm. And now more people volunteer, now that it’s an urban farm. They’re not signing anything away.

Nancy 17:31

What’s the difference between a community garden and urban farm?

Natasha 17:34

With a community garden, people are assigned a plot of land or a raised bed and they have to take care of that so that it does not look ugly. They’re responsible for the growing and the weeding and everything. Whereas with the urban farm, we’re kind of responsible for it. They can come over and volunteer in exchange for either crops or purchasing of things like eggs at a lower rate. We found that we get more volunteers that way than we did with actually forming a community garden.

Nancy 18:08

And it sounds like part of the incentive for you to do this was building community.

Natasha 18:13

Yes, because I came from a neighborhood where we knew everybody on the block. And we spoke to everybody on the block and sometimes had dinner, you know, with people on the block. And if our parents were late, their children could come to our house and vice versa.

And we didn’t have that because we were the new people. And you know, we live in a society where people kind of mind their own business now and they don’t care what happens next door just as long as it doesn’t come over into their backyard. And we wanted to stop that. Once we started developing the farm, people started talking to us. They would stop walking or they would stop on their bikes and ask, “What are you doing?” And that started the conversation. And now we have people who look out for the farm. We have a couple more people who have purchased chickens, because they saw that we had them… and lots of folks thought that our chickens would be getting out. I get phone calls or text messages. “Hey, Mrs. Nicholes, your chicken’s out.” I’m like, “I’m pretty sure they’re not mine. Pretty positive. They’re not mine. But thank you very much for the heads up,” or “Hey, there’s somebody on the farm right now. And they look like they might be getting ready to help themselves to something, do you want me to go out and let them know the policy?” We’re getting a lot more of that instead of just us out by ourselves every weekend.

Nancy 19:39

Just rolling up on the bike and asking you questions. So, what do you grow? What do you raise there?

Natasha 19:44

Oh, the better question is what we don’t. We do not have fruit yet. And the only reason we don’t grow strawberries is because they are kind of invasive. You have to control those a little bit better. Lots of tomatoes, you know, in varieties that folks have never ever heard of before. And the normal: cucumbers, cabbage, spinach, greens, watermelons, honeydew, cantaloupe, corn, which a lot of people are surprised to see in Chicago, but they don’t remember that Illinois is the second highest corn producer in the nation. Our land is perfect for it.

Nancy 20:25

I was thinking about this this morning, because I live in Oakland and there are sections of my city that are food deserts and where it’s really challenging for families to get fresh fruit and vegetables. And I wondered to what extent that was an incentive? And what are your policies for distributing from the farm?

Natasha 20:46

Our policy is, we actually sell what we grow and we sell it at a much lower rate than you would get at a grocery store mostly because we’re not attempting to make a profit from it. We just need to pay our water bill, if we have to use water and cover seed and soil purchasing. And dirt is expensive. People don’t know that either. It’s very, very expensive.

Nancy 21:05

I did not know that.

Natasha 21:06

It is a lot for stuff that your parents told you to not play in. Our community does qualify as a food desert because our closest grocery store is a little bit more than a mile away. Still walkable. But it’s still more than a mile away. And they’ve closed quite a few grocery stores in our area. And you know, there are huge lots that I have dreams of, like farmers markets and everything. We have access, but it’s very hard if you don’t have a car. You know, there’s no loss for convenience stores and things like that. And our convenience stores try to serve what they say are fresh fruits and vegetables, but they’re not.

Nancy 21:46

Well, there’s nothing like having a tomato that just got picked off the vine in terms of nutrients and deliciousness. I’m sure that makes a big difference in your neighborhood.

Natasha 21:58

Yes, it does. And people like to come through and ask questions about how to grow their own. We do have two neighbors now who were not growing vegetables at all when they first moved in, came and helped and saw the evolution of the farm. And now their backyards look like tiny greenhouses as well.

Nancy 22:17

That must make you feel great.

Natasha 22:18

Yeah, it’s nice to see. It makes my little urban farmer heart happy.

Nancy 22:24

Speaking of the urban farmer heart, I heard you’re getting it certified. You’re pursuing a Master of Urban Farming certification. I can’t use words, certification. What’s that about?

Natasha 22:36

I’m officially a Master Urban Farmer.

Nancy 22:38

Yes, that’s so exciting. What do you have to do to get to get that certification?

Natasha 22:45

I don’t even know how many hours we had to go to school. This summer is a blur. It started late spring. And we had to attend class every week for like four hours. Anybody who’s been out of school for a long amount of time, and who already suffers with a very, very horrible attention span knows that sitting down for four hours and having information shared with you, even if it’s something you love, is quite difficult. That took a lot of focus for me and a lot of determination.

But what it means is I am now certified growing food in an urban setting and the business practices that come along with it. And I actually also qualify as a master gardener. So master gardeners typically know how to identify pests and weeds and things that may be wrong with the soil or your growing medium and help you figure that out.

Nancy 23:38

Do you think there’s anything particular about being in the middle phase of life that has made it easier for you to build We Sow We Grow, to take on the challenge of getting that urban farming certification? What is it about being kind of not wet behind the ears anymore that’s helped make it easier for you to achieve your goals?

Natasha 23:57

My answer is a little bit morbid. I’ve had two siblings pass away. The first one passed away when I was about to turn 22, and my second passed away June of this year. And the death of my sister who was the first sibling to die really let me know that life is just fleeting. And kids often think that you have until you’re 90 to do everything that you want to do. And her dying let me know that that was not the case at all. And you know, my brothers, I have two brothers. There were four of us. It was the two brothers and myself left. And we promised to love and live on purpose when she died. And I thought that I was doing it right. It so happened that my brother who died was doing it better than any of us.

Nancy 24:51

I never met your brother but the tributes you wrote about him all summer, what I learned about Daniel… I can see why you would say that. He sounds he was a really wonderful guy.

Natasha 25:02

Yeah, and he hated family not getting along at all. I can take it or leave it because it’s boundaries again. But when he got behind something, he got behind it fully. And it may have even been to a fault, but he never apologized for it. And when I brought up We Sow We Grow, he was probably my second largest cheerleader after my husband. And he made sure to let me know, “Hey, I haven’t seen any fundraising status messages from you. What are you doing? Let me know what you’re doing with the farm. Because if nobody knows, you can’t complain if nobody knows!”

So that was a nice inspiration. And then when you partner that with me, not caring how I appear to people…

Nancy 25:57

You’re kind of painting yourself as, I mean, let me just assure everybody who’s listening: She’s lovely. Like Natasha’s really nice. You make it sound like you run up and punch people in the face.

Natasha 26:09

No, I know. I mean, my appearance as in, I’m doing too much or I’m flighty. Where people get embarrassed if they feel that other people are judging them. In Chicago, I will say, with as many people who are black who farm in Chicago, it’s still one of those things like, “Oh my God, you grow your own food?” You know, when people say that I do put on a smile. And I will say, “Yeah, I mean, it’s not unheard of to grow your own food.” “Well, why don’t you just go to the grocery store?” And this is what I love. I love the canning and preserving and the homesteading. And if I could have a dairy cow, I would totally have a dairy cow because I would love to have fresh milk and cream and all of that other stuff.

Nancy 26:59

After Mrs. O’Leary’s cow, I’m sure that’s a very touchy subject in Chicago.

Natasha 27:06

Yeah, I keep threatening to have the Greater Chicago Fire.

Nancy 27:11

Don’t try to one up me.

Natasha 27:13

One of these days. But that’s what I mean about not worrying too much about how I appear to people because if I let people’s thoughts of me control my space, I would have stopped doing things a very, very long time ago.

Nancy 27:28

And that just gets easier and easier to let go of as you get older. I think we all recognize that.

Natasha 27:32

And I think the more tragedies, you know, you get to the point where you’re like, listen, life is not stopping at all. It’s not slowing down. And I can either sit here and wallow, or I can get up and do something.

And while I’m at it, you can also wallow and do something. So, there were lots of times during the summer after the death of my brother, where I’m pretty sure people were super confused, driving past or walking past or biking past, I would put headphones on. And I would just stop and weed or stop and you know harvest or I think at one point in time, I stood in the middle of the farm and screamed out really loud, “I’m so angry with you, Death!” and there were people walking, I knew it and I didn’t care because at that moment, that’s what I needed to get out.

So, I’m hoping that more people start learning to live who they are, while also knowing you know what’s appropriate. I wouldn’t have been able to get away with that in church.

Nancy 28:35

But I do think as we get older, remembering that, exactly as you say it, you can move forward and still feel sorrow, you can feel conflicting things. And you know, life’s not black and white and there’s so much gray. And I think we just have to kind of honor the sadness when we feel it.

In writing my book, I talked to a sociologist friend of mine, Christine Carter, who talked about the fact that you can’t selectively numb your emotions. I was asking her, “Are there people out there who don’t feel gratitude? Is there anybody for whom writing thank you letters wouldn’t work? And she said, “It’s not that there are people who are ungrateful, it’s people who have locked down emotions completely. And you can’t, you know, lock down anger, fear, sadness, without unfortunately also cutting off all the good emotions.” Feeling comfortable with letting that kind of stuff out and screaming what you need to in the middle of your farm, I think it’s a really healthy way to move through the grief and to keep honoring his cheerleading of your effort and moving ahead.

Natasha 29:45

Yes, and the two siblings that have passed away are the ones who would probably sit on the farm with me and scream and yell. Just to make me feel better, too, they would do it with me. The sibling I’m left with… I love him dearly. He is much quieter and still very blunt, which is hilarious, but way quieter and way more prone to holding things close to his heart.

Whereas I’m just like, forget this crap. I need you to know that today is a not a good day. I don’t want you trying too hard to make me happy because what will happen is the opposite effect. And then our friendship might be gone. So just, you know, leave me alone. And he will just not answer, we’re both the same way, not answer phones or text messages or whatever, until we’re ready.

I know with grief, a lot of people are uncomfortable when other people are grieving. They want to get back to a space where they are comfortable. And, you know, seeing you sad or crying or angry makes them so very uncomfortable that they try to do or say whatever needs to be done or say it to get you back to where you know, it’s all happy days. And I want people to stop doing that. Stop doing that. Stop trying to make people grieve in a way that makes you comfortable. Let them grieve in a way that allows them to get it out.

Nancy 31:10

There’s a really good book on this topic. It’s called There’s No Good Card for This and it’s by Kelsey Crowe and I had her on the podcast pretty early on. I’ll leave a link to that episode in the show notes here. But that’s what her whole book is about, respecting the way that people move through grief and finding a way to be helpful and supportive to them that doesn’t make you uncomfortable, or at least draws on your strengths. Because she kind of acknowledges that, exactly what you’ve said, it’s a hard needle to thread. But people need that support. And there’s so many good ways to do it.

I always think of this example. She says if you have a neighbor who has suffered loss, maybe you move their car for them when the city is coming through to tow at different times. You just make an arrangement with them, “I’m going to be the one to move your car. You don’t have to worry about switching sides of the streets.” Just little things like that that are practical and really helpful. And give them the space they need. But you don’t have to bring a casserole, you don’t have to come to the funeral if that’s uncomfortable, you know. There’s lots of ways you can help someone who’s going through grief. I think it’s probably really helpful to the people around you that you’re so clear about what you need on a given day. And you know, it’s easier than guessing.

Natasha 32:23

It is. I also want people who are grieving to know there is no set time limit. Like I said, my sister died in 2002 and the beginning of this year was where I was just starting to get used to her not being around. Then my brother went and died on me. And now I’m angry with both of them all over again. I also deal with grief in a probably inappropriate way to most people. I mean, I blame things on people who are not able to speak up.

Nancy 32:57

Oh, wait, you mean you’re human? Oh, I understand now! Well, in honor of in honor of Daniel in particular, I want to just make sure we get this: how can people support the goals of We Sow We Grow? I know you’re always looking for a little help in getting seeds and getting tools. Where should people go if they’d like to support the work you’re doing in the Southside of Chicago?

Natasha 33:18

www.WeSowWeGrow.org and they can go there and press the donation button. It goes directly to us. There are no fees taken away at all, nobody’s taking anything off the top before it comes to us and all. If you live in Chicago or are visiting and you want to volunteer or come through and tour, you’re more than welcome to reach out to us. And we can schedule that if we are around.

Nancy 33:41

You have a Facebook page, right?

Natasha 33:42

We do have a Facebook page. We also have Twitter and Instagram so you can see what we’re doing. And that’s all under We Sow We Grow, not Sow is S-O-W not S-E-W. For some reason, people like to put that in, S-O-W We Grow. And we also have T shirts. And that information can be found on our Facebook page. And our T shirts say that “Dirty by Nature.” We like to keep a musical theme going there. Because we’re often listening to music while we’re on the farm.

Nancy 34:16

That’s awesome. I’ll leave links to all of that stuff on the show notes page.

I have one final question for you, Natasha. What one piece of advice do you have for people younger than you or do you wish you could go back and tell yourself?

Natasha 34:26

I would tell myself, oh my gosh, that everything’s going to be okay. And, I may not be everybody’s cup of tea, but I’m somebody coffee.

Nancy 34:38

I love that. Flipping love that.

Natasha 34:40

Because I am a unique being. And I think I catch a lot of people off guard and you know, just like coffee, coffee has a tendency to do that. So that’s what I would tell myself. You are totally okay being who you are. Do not change for anybody. I will tell people younger than me listen and observe a lot more then you talk because you know absolutely nothing.

Nancy 35:06

Alright, that’s great advice. Natasha Nicholes, thank you so much for coming on to the Midlife Mixtape Podcast. It’s a delight talking with you.

Natasha 35:14

Thank you for having me. This was a blast.

Nancy 35:15

I’ll talk to you soon.

[MUSIC]

Nancy

I’m actually really glad we talked a little bit about grief with Natasha today. And for any of you who are listening, who are going through loss, as so many of us are or will at this age, I just want to send out a virtual hug of solidarity and witness of what you’re having to bear. But not a casual hug, you know, because not everybody likes that. Natasha doesn’t. I think that’s clear.

And if you’re listening and know someone who needs company while they scream in the garden, maybe you could go over and stand with them while they do that, so they don’t feel so alone. We didn’t even get a chance in this interview to touch on the travel writing and photography that Natasha does. And right after I interviewed her, she was off to Morocco. You guys have to go follow her on Instagram @NatashaNicholes, amazing photography of Morocco. It feels like you’re there with her, so I encourage you to check out her sites.

And I’ll leave links to everything in the show notes. And other than that, I’m wishing you guys a great week and I’ll catch you next time.

[THEME MUSIC – “Be Free” by M. The Heir Apparent]

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