Ep 83 Navy Veteran/Episcopal Priest Andrew Hybl

Midlife Mixtape

“A bunch of big questions”: Reverend Andrew Hybl on enlisting in the military after 9/11, how doubts raised during active duty in Iraq gradually unfolded into Episcopal priesthood, and how Tupac nudged the whole process along.

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Back when I was asked to compile a mixtape to be played in the lobby for the Listen To Your Mother shows every year on Mother’s Day, this song was a slam dunk for inclusion.

Thanks as always to M. The Heir Apparent, who provides the music behind the podcast – check him out here!

***This is a rough transcription of Episode 83 of the Midlife Mixtape Podcast. It originally aired on September 29, 2020. Transcripts are created using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and there may be errors in this transcription, but we hope that it provides helpful insight into the conversation. If you have any questions or need clarification, please email [e-mail] ***

Andrew Hybl 0:00

I don’t care what people believe as long as their beliefs aren’t based in retribution or violence or discrimination based on people’s skin color or political whatever…Theology is very important because when you’ve seen it at its most extreme, you know where it can lead to.

THEME MUSIC – Be Free by M. The Heir Apparent

Nancy Davis Kho 0:18

Welcome to Midlife Mixtape, the Podcast. I’m Nancy Davis Kho and we’re here to talk about the years between being hip and breaking one

MUSIC

Nancy 0:43

Hey everyone, this is Nancy Davis Kho the creator and host of the Midlife Mixtape Podcast and I’m thrilled to let you know that I can now say I’m the host of an award winning podcast. That’s right. Last week, I learned that the Midlife Mixtape Podcast won an Iris Award for Podcast of the Year from Mom2.0. Mom2is a conference I’ve attended for years, which works at the intersection of moms, marketers and the media. And I’m incredibly honored that the community saw fit to give my show the nod and I want to thank all of you for listening and sharing the Midlife Mixtape Podcast, for your kind reviews that helps surface this little labor of love to a broader audience. I’ll be right back. I just have to tell the stonemason what font to use when they chisel award winning on my tombstone. Thanks, you guys. I really appreciate it.

MUSIC

Hey, everybody, it’s Nancy here and welcome to the Midlife Mixtape Podcast, we’re going to spend the next half hour or so talking about the years between being hip and breaking one. So, take a break from trying to understand why in 2020 to cap means to lie, or where to drop a casual yeet into the appropriate spot in your conversations pressures off. We’re not supposed to be that hip you guys, we don’t want to look like we’re trying that hard.

Serious question, are you registered to vote? Have you double checked? That’s not the kind of thing you want to figure out on November 2, given the barriers that keep getting thrown up to prevent people from having their vote count in this incredibly important upcoming presidential election. It’s important to have your voting plan together in advance. And if you have the wherewithal to do it to make sure others in your community do as well. So, check out vote.org to get started, that’s a really good place to go. The other site that I’ve been on a bunch is vote Forward, Votefwd.org, you can write letters to voters in swing states with a low propensity to vote and encourage them to get out and vote. It’s not endorsing a particular candidate or party. It’s just about voter turnout. So votefwd.org, check that one out as well.

I have really been looking forward to today’s interview, which is with my friend Reverend Andrew Hybl. Andrew and I met about 10 years ago when he was assigned as the seminarian,which is a minister in training, at my Episcopal Church here in Oakland, and we just hit it off over a shared appreciation for rap music and inappropriate comments during church how the I don’t even remember how that came up. Like “Hello, father. What do you think of Busta Rhymes?” I don’t remember how we how we figured this out. But we did. He’s definitely the only priest I’ve ever taken along to an old school hip hop dance party.

But the reason I invited him on the show is because of his unique career path and how music played a part in shaping it.

So Reverend Andrew Hybl is an Episcopal priest and currently the Dean of Students at church at the Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. Prior to attending seminary, he served on active duty in the armed forces and he lives with his beautiful wife and two young children in Oakland, California. They spend most of their time on zoom while navigating the current pandemic. So, grab a pew – you’ll notice as you listen that Andrew’s got a bit of a squeaky chair situation that didn’t come through in the interview only what I listened to afterward, so we’re gonna pretend he’s sitting in an old church pew too – and settling for my talk with Reverend Andrew Hybl.

MUSIC

Nancy

I am here today with my friend Andrew Hybl. Andrew, welcome to the Midlife Mixtape Podcast.

Andrew Hybl 4:02

Thank you. Happy to be here.

Nancy 4:03

We have talked about doing this for quite some time. Because there is a story I’m going to make you tell that you have been holding over my head for years, and I think everyone should hear it at the same time. But before we get to that, what was your first concert and what were the circumstances?

Andrew 4:19

My first concert was when I was about six or seven my parents took me to a to Live Crew concert.

Nancy 4:28

Talk more about that, Andrew? I guess I did not see that… I haven’t met your parents. But that’s not what I pictured.

Andrew 4:35

Yeah, no, that never happened.

Nancy 4:39

But see, I’m ready to believe it. I was so ready to believe it.

Andrew 4:43

Yeah, no, that never happened. My first was New Kids on the Block, which is a little bit different than that group.

Nancy 4:50

Do you want to now say that didn’t happen because that…

Andrew 4:53

No, that happened. Unfortunately.

Nancy 4:55

New Kids on the Block are great. What was that like? How old were you? Who’d you go with?

Andrew 4:59

I think it was nine I went with my friend Hamilton Peters. I think it was at the State Fairgrounds.

Nancy 5:06

Was Hamilton Peters one of the founding fathers? Because it sounds like he should have been.

Andrew 5:09

I think so. It should have been when I was around nine or 10. And it was at the County Fairgrounds, and I think I had an airbrushed New Kids on the black t shirt on.

Nancy 5:19

I love the first concerts that take place at the fairground, because you’ve got your cotton candy. You can hear the livestock in the background. It’s everything. It’s multisensory.

Andrew 5:29

Yeah, there’s no doubt, I mean, that best day of my life.

Nancy 5:32

Now which fairground was that?

Andrew 5:34

It was in Columbia, South Carolina.

Nancy 5:36

Okay. Now, here’s my follow up musical question for you. Do you think that you could rap a whole sermon?

Andrew 5:43

Oh, yeah, I’ve done it.

Nancy 5:46

Does anybody have video of that?

Andrew

Thank God. No.

Nancy 5:50

He does. He does, because he gets copies of everybody’s Sunday sermon, but nobody else. Okay. I hope to witness it someday.

You know, one of the reasons I wanted you on the show is because one of my favorite things about people at midlife is a lot of us have taken a lot of twists and turns to get where we are. So the college major we had, or the thing that we were sure we were going to be when we were 15 years old is SO not who we are in our 40s and 50s. So I group the podcast episodes together. And this is for my Long Way ‘Round mix. And I always have been really fascinated with the long way round that you took.

So let’s start by talking about what the first chapter of that looked like. And that was your time in the armed services. So, can you talk to me a little bit about your military service? How old were you when you joined? Why did you join Lay it on me!

Andrew 6:41

Sure. September 11, 2001. That was the fall semester of my senior year in college. And the morning it happened. It was about nine o’clock am where I was. And I remember they canceled classes at the university, and I sat in my fraternity house and watched the news for 12 hours straight. Didn’t move, didn’ eat. I was it was my senior year; it was the fall. So, I was actually studying for the LSATS to go to law school. Those that was my plan. But something really changed that day. And I just had this impending feeling that we were going to be going to war soon. And I was 22, probably have a lot more testosterone than I had critical thinking at the time. And I signed up really soon after. I knew exactly what I wanted to do.

Nancy 7:34

Had you ever given it any thought prior to September 11?

Andrew 7:37

My family has a history. My dad was in the Navy grandfather, and I’ve got uncles and stuff like that, but it just wasn’t in the cards for me. I never really thought about it until one day and it was just crystal clear what I was going to be doing next

Nancy 7:50

And you joined the Navy. And you deployed twice overseas. Is that right?

Andrew 7:56

Yeah, I had a weird job. I was technically in the Navy, but I’ve never…

Nancy 8:00

You can’t swim?

Andrew 8:02

Outside of initial training. I’ve never been on a Navy base. I’ve never stepped foot on a navy ship. I was assigned to Marine Corps units for five and a half years that I was in.

Nancy 8:12

So, can you talk a little bit about where you served and how long you said five and a half years. But how much of that was you were in Iraq? Right?

Andrew 8:19

Yeah. So, I did a lot of personal security. I mean, that was a lot of my work. I worked with a lot of chaplains on personal security because they’re noncombatants.

For a while I was going out with a quick reaction force. We were outside of Baghdad; we were in the Sunni triangle is what it’s called. So, it’s between Baghdad and Fallujah and Ramadi. And it was, there’s, you know, there’s kind of intense periods when you’re overseas. And then there’s a lot of just boredom. It’s not what you see in the movies. It’s not all just gung ho 24 hours a day. It’s a lot of boredom. I was 22. And so, I had a pretty limited worldview when I went in, and I think going over to a completely foreign country and getting a better understanding of politics. Just it expanded your worldview exponentially.

Nancy 9:12

So, what are the things… I’m curious, you were in your 20s? You were you were out of the military again, you know, by the time you were 30. But what are the things that you learned from that experience that influence the person you are in your 40s? Are you in your 40s yet? I always think of you as a young whippersnapper, but that’s only compared to me, and I’m old as hell. So a lot of people could be still old, but younger than me.

Andrew 9:34

I actually turned 40 this year, on January 1.

Nancy 9:39

Well, kudos to you for having that done before COVID set in, nice job.

Andrew 9:44

But you know what I learned over there. I mean, what influenced me was, you know, just the expanded worldview and seeing what I considered at that time was observing the worst of religion and the worst of humanity combined. You’ve got people trying to kill other people because the government tells them to. And you’ve got different religions professing that God was on their respective side. And it just creates this nightmare sandwich of the worst of religion and the worst of humanity. Now, if I had to boil it down, that’s the one big lesson that I took away.

Nancy 10:19

Were there any positive things you took away from it? I mean, I know how you converted that into a positive, we’re going to talk about that. But I’ve never served in the military. So, I can only imagine what it’s like to have that kind of a team and that kind of trust among your fellow soldiers. I wonder how that might play out as a 40 something?

Andrew 10:35

Yeah, I mean, the camaraderie that is built there is unmatched in any other setting that I’ve found myself in. I would also say, you know, the military is great for a lot of people. I was not always a saint. And I still am not. But it gave me a lot of discipline, it gave me a lot of direction, task accomplishment, mission accomplishment, whatever you want to call it. I mean, those things bleed over into civilian life. And I really needed it at the time, and I wasn’t aware of how much I needed it. I just took away a lot of life skills that, you know, helped me become the person I am today.

Nancy 11:05

And then came a Tupac song and everything changed. And this, listeners, this is what I’ve been waiting for. So, Andrew, take us through how Tupac changed your life.

Andrew 11:16

Yeah, I mean, there’s, there’s no doubt, I would say that probably one of the biggest influences. For me becoming a priest, which is totally crazy to say that, it was years of when I was going to going through high school and college and figuring out who I was. And so, I kind of felt like I grew up with him.

But Tupac originally started with this group called Digital Underground. And when I was in college, my fraternity actually hired Digital Underground to fly in for a fundraiser party. And I mean, it was amazing to meet everyone that was in the group. And these people that I’d listened to, since I was 12 years old. But it was almost surreal, right, to have these people playing in our fraternity party in Arkansas, of all places. They felt like they just landed on Mars when we did our party.

But I don’t know, the thing about Tupac, he, to me, seems like this really prophetic guy. I mean, he was fearless about the way he expressed his views and his beliefs. But at the same time, he’s really socially conscious about important issues within his community. On the other hand, at times, he was very vulnerable. And his lyrics would show you a side of him that was deeply passionate about the social issues that not only plagued his community, but the rest of the world. This is 20 years ago, but so much of what he spoke about, about racial injustice and police brutality, that’s the exact same things that we’re dealing with in our context today, right?

And so, as I was kind of contemplating Seminary in my own faith tradition, in my own context of the Episcopal Church, now, when I was preparing to go to seminar… you can open up the Bible, and you’re going to open up the middle. And it’s going to be the book of Psalms, right? And the book of Psalms is just a collection of poems and hymns and prayers that really powerfully express the feelings of the Jewish people, during some very challenging times in their own context. I couldn’t open the book of songs without seeing almost a direct parallel to Tupac lyrics. I mean, he’s addressing some of the very same things in in his own legs.

And in his own lyrics, he talks all the time about God and faith, or prayer and hope or asking for God’s protection. And he spoke all the time about resurrection and life after death. His last album cover was a picture of him crucified on a cross! But at the same time, he was very critical of religion at times, which is a good thing. I mean, you need to be, right? But I mean, I think the entire collection of his music, I mean, it had an impact on my life.

Nancy 13:47

Did it make it easier knowing the ability that he had to balance the secular and the holy? Did that make it easier for you? Because I can’t imagine it was an easy transition to say, you know what, I’ve just decided, I’m gonna enter this seminary, which is preacher school, for those of you who don’t know.

Andrew 14:04

Yes. And I mean, I think I can expand on that in a minute. One of the things I respect about him is … you know, Nancy, I’m the most non-religious priest you’ve probably ever met.

Nancy

By far.

Andrew

And I’m okay with that. I take pride in it. I mean, there’s, you know, I have this deep fascination with God and faith and forgiveness, but I don’t necessarily like church. I don’t necessarily like religious people, you know. And so I saw some of that in him as well, that was, you know, just deeply inspiring.

Nancy 14:37

For people who are listening who are not members of organized religion… One of the things that I’ve always liked so much about the Episcopal Church is how much it values doubt, or at least the Episcopal Churches that I’ve stuck around with you know, they value doubt. It’s a part of faith. It’s a part of humanity. It’s very hard for me to deal with Christians who are all about “this is what the Bible says. And so that’s what has to be done.” Because there’s so much room in the Christian faith for interpretation and for, you know, letting it be a living, breathing thing. And I think I think that’s what I’m hearing you say is that you saw that in Tupac lyrics that he kind of could hold both those things at the same time, that certainty of faith, but also the unknown that plagues us all, all the time. And the and the ways in which we have flaws in which we fall short.

Andrew 15:28

Without a doubt, I think, he helped it helped give me permission to not try to bury those feelings of doubt. It empowered me to realize that doubt is an integral part of faith. And I experience it probably more than anybody. It’s different when you’re leading a church, or you’re in a leadership role in the church versus maybe in the pews. But it just gave me permission to know that those feelings were okay.

When it comes to doubt… It was 1995 when he came out with this song called Dear Mama, and it’s this beautiful tribute to his mother. She was one of the most important people in his entire life. And shortly after that song came out, my own mother had a massive stroke. And she was taken to the hospital and she was in intensive care for weeks and weeks. And the doctors did not think that she was going to make it. And they had a priest come in to perform last rites. My mom, when she was in intensive care… thank God, fortunately, weeks and weeks and years later, she’s made a full recovery. But I probably played that Dear Mama song a billion times when she was in the hospital. I mean, in her room while she was unconscious! The thoughts of doubt were totally there. I mean, when you’re 16 years old, your mom’s in intensive care hooked up to tubes, you don’t know how to process that. Right? And you just think God’s left the room, right?

It was one of those songs that I played a million times and you know, it consoled me, but it also gave me permission to doubt, but it also, I could resonate with the feelings he had about his mom.

Nancy 17:02

Right. Well, that’s the gift of a good song, isn’t it? It reminds you you’re not alone and it says the stuff you don’t even know. That’s how you’re feeling. And then suddenly, you are singing along with it. You’re like, “Oh, right.”

Andrew 17:14

He gave me language for what I didn’t know how to say in that moment.

Nancy 17:20

So I’m still curious, you say that when you are considering the seminary, what was the midterm step between serving in the armed forces and deciding because not everybody leaves? Not everyone who leaves the military becomes a priest. I feel like that’s a rather… there’s not a huge off ramp that goes in that direction. So what was it like to make that choice and to take that direction?

Andrew 17:42

I mean, for me, it wasn’t as much of a leap. I mean, I would say for me, it was more of a gradual unfolding. When I left active duty, I just had a bunch of existential questions. I have a bunch of free money because of the new GI Bill. And, you know, one of our battalion chaplains, this guy, Father Spencer, Catholic priest, he was a former Marine infantry officer turned navy chaplain, amazing human being. Well, I would just sit and bug the hell out of him for hour in the desert, just asking him all these crazy questions.

I could tell he’s probably just getting a little tired of it, but he never showed it. And he just, he’s the one who pulled me aside was like, “Look, you’ve got a bunch of big existential questions. And these are valid questions, and I can’t answer them for you. Because you need to go dig into these subjects on your own. And you really need to kind of break this stuff open and form your own theology.”

And so that’s when I moved to Berkeley to begin seminary at the Graduate theological union. But at the time, you know, I was still in my 20s, I knew I wasn’t really ready to just kind of move back into general society and get a job and carry on with my life. Right? There was a period of, you know, I’m gonna say, a downtime or a healing time that I needed to wrestle with some of these issues. And so when I went to the graduate theological union, ordination wasn’t on my mind. It wasn’t like I went there “Oh, I’m gonna go become an Episcopal priest.” I didn’t know what the hell I was going to do. I just had a bunch of big questions.

And so that’s how I ended up there. But you know, then it just became a gradual unfolding process of as I started to wrestle with these things. And as I started to meet some Episcopal clergy, like Scott Denman, or Phil Rashard, or some of the people in the local Bay Area, these are people that I looked up to and people that I could really resonate with. And a lot of ways we spoke the same language. You know, for me, it was just a gradual, unfolding process that wasn’t in the cards for me when I started.

Nancy 19:35

Well, it’s so interesting, because I think for a lot of us in when we were in our 20s, and you know, let’s say early 30s, the idea of having unanswered questions is kind of terrifying. Because what you’re told all along is you’re going to do this, you’re going to do this, you know, this is kind of the path and it feels like everybody around you knows what they’re doing. And I’m saying this, of course, prior to 2020 and COVID, when nobody knows nobody does anything about anything, but it’s intimidating to think of having so many big unanswered questions.

And I think there’s a measure of bravery that goes along with like, okay, just follow your nose, see what happens. I’ll ask you at the end of the episode, what do you wish you could go back and tell your younger self? But oftentimes, the answer that I get from guests on that question is about going back to the younger self and saying, “take a risk, just get started. Don’t worry about perfection, just do something, just start.” And I think it’s really illustrative in your situation.

Now you are the Dean of Students for the Church Divinity School of the Pacific here in the Bay Area. So you’re not only an ordained Episcopal priest, but now you are helping other people who are considering that path to discern whether or not they want to do that. Are you like the Catholic priest in the desert? Are you answering tons of questions from people all the time?

Andrew 20:50

In ways…Yes, I mean, my graduate theological union is a consortium of nine schools, right in the neighborhood in Berkeley from different denominations and that kind of stuff. So I did my first master’s degree at Pacific School of religion, which is a very non-denominational or interdenominational school that they don’t really shoehorn you into a specific track. And then once I was pursuing ordination in the Episcopal Church, I had to go CDSP across the street and do all my Episcopal studies.

Nancy 21:16

That’s Church Divinity School of the Pacific.

Andrew 21:19

So where I’m at now, which is CDSP, the Episcopal seminary, a lot of those students have gone through a lot of the discernment process already. And you know, they did a lot of the things that I was doing when I was in my master’s degree across the street. So a lot of them are prepared to go my school. But I think what I spent a lot of time with is everybody has preconceived notions about what being a priest is like, or what you know what they’re gonna do. And there’s a big Reality Check that comes with that.

Nancy 21:44

What’s the biggest disconnect? Where’s the biggest space between expectation and reality?

Andrew 21:48

Well, I mean, it’s a service job, right? So, of course, you can look at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco with just this gorgeous Gothic architecture. Beautiful, huge church. Well, guess what, Bubba, you’re not going there for you. You’re not going to be the Dean of the cathedral.

Nancy 22:04

It’s a long way to the top if you wanna Grace Cathedral.

Andrew 22:08

Exactly. But, you know, it’s bringing expectations into more of a realistic picture. But it’s also reminding people… you know, my first parish priest job was in Conway, Arkansas and my wife was born and raised in Berkeley. The only time she’s ever left was law school in Los Angeles. And then, three months after we got married, I was like, “Hey, we’re moving to Arkansas. And…”

Nancy 22:28

I remember she was stoked.

Andrew 22:34

She was not. But you know, she ended up absolutely loving it. And the job of a priest, of course…we’d all like to live in a beautiful place by the ocean or whatever. But that’s not how it’s gonna end up, you may end up in a tiny little town with a tiny parish of 20-something elderly people. Well, they are still deserving of care and love. So a lot of what I do is help people realize this is about service to other people and it doesn’t matter where you are, what you’re doing, and the faster you can wrap your head around that then I think they really start functioning as a priest.

Nancy 23:07

In a minute, we’re going to come back with Andrew and talk about what his military buddies think of his transformation from soldier to priest. But first a word from our sponsor.

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MUSIC

Alright, we’re back with Andrew Hybl. And I was curious to know what your soldier friends, what your Navy buddies thought when they heard that you were becoming a priest? I wonder if anybody that heard thought, “Okay, well, we saw that from day one.” Or if it was a surprise to them?

Andrew 25:50

Yeah, most of them thought I took a bad hit acid and never came back. No, it’s 50/50. You know, I probably talk to three of those guys from back in those days. And you know, that’s not a good thing or a bad thing. It just is what it is, it’s a very, you know, being in the military is very transient thing, you’re always moving, or you’re deployed, or you lose touch with people all the time. The guys who I know, close the guys who were close to me, you know, they wouldn’t have picked that as my job. But when they knew what I was doing, it wasn’t shocking. You know, they had these big questions because I was bothering the hell out of them, too.

Nancy 26:26

So, what do you think about being at midlife and being a priest? Do you think you look at things through a different lens now that you’re 40 than you did, you know, 10 years ago, when you were just kind of entering this? What are the ways in which you regard the job or the role or the service differently now? Because you’ve got, let’s face it a few more miles on you?

Andrew 26:49

Oh, yeah, I think I definitely look at the world through a different lens. But I don’t necessarily attribute that to my age, as much as I do. It’s just the way I was trained. You know, it’s the way seminary trained you to look at the world through a lens of forgiveness as a core concept of one of my deepest beliefs, right, like giving people 100 chances to improve or become their better self.

So, I also look at the world at the underlying injustices that we see everywhere around us. And it’s heartbreaking. So, for me, it’s not so much age as it is, it’s just the lens. And the lens that I was trained in my 20s was a much more violent. We all look at the world through a different lens. And so in my 20s, it was because of my context, I was trained that way by the military. In my 30s, I look at it very differently because seminary trained me to and you know, in my 40s now I much prefer the lens that I look at now versus my twenties.

Nancy 27:43

You said your takeaway from serving in Iraq was that it was the worst of religion, the worst of humanity. And I imagine that as somebody who wears a clerical collar, I mean, there’s a lot of damage being done in the name of religion, doesn’t matter which religion you pick, but somewhere there’s injustice being perpetrated. And I wonder, are you often called on to defend it? You’ve seen it yourself… I mean, you’ve experienced it yourself when you were in the military. So, what’s it like to, you know, be called on to kind of are you called on by people to defend it? Or, you know, do you have to get defensive? What’s that like?

Andrew 28:20

No, I mean, I don’t… I don’t know. This is, it’s a great question, but it’s kind of difficult to answer. You know, I’m not called on to be a public apologist for religion. I mean, there’s terrible religion out there all the time. But I think what I try to convey to people is, theology is very important, what you believe…if you have any belief in God or not, beliefs are powerful, right? So, I saw bad theology in action, right? I see what happens if you believe that your God, you know, wants you to go and kill these people or those people for being, you know, who knows what. So that’s, that’s a theology problem.

And it’s not necessarily a political question for a lot of wars that we see. It’s a question about beliefs. And so, I don’t care what people believe as long as their beliefs aren’t based in retribution, or violence, or discrimination based on people’s skin, color, political… whatever. So, for me, especially with students, you know, I stress with students that theology is very important, because when you’ve seen it at its most extreme, you know where it can lead to. And so, for me, that’s kind of been the guiding principle. But no, I don’t go out and try to Bible bash people are trying to correct them. I think actions speak a lot louder than words.

Nancy 29:34

Yeah, I found myself as I’ve gotten older, I’ve gotten much more involved in my church because it’s a place where people can take positive action. Maybe it’s why you and I clicked so much when you started as the seminary at our church because I feel kind of the same way about the religion piece of it, I have a lot of questions about it. But “oh, we’re going to go work at a food bank?” or “we’re going to march in the Oakland gay pride parade?” or “we’re going to go lobby for equitable bus routes,” and that stuff I can get behind. And our church has been the conduit for me to be able to do that.

So it’s all about the actions and so when I see the good it can do, it makes me so sick to my stomach when I see the bad it can do on the other side: the evangelicals who, you know, are excusing such horrific behavior and rationalizing it. And it’s just, it’s even worse to think that that is someone who believes themselves to be a devout Christian in the same way that I do. But we just have a completely different understanding what that looks like in practice.

Andrew 30:32

Yeah, I taught your daughter’s confirmation classes like 10 years ago, we had a conversation about… they had to explore some other world religion, and your daughter got, I don’t even know what it was now. But we had a conversation about how weird it was …me, and you, and you were like, “this is crazy.” And I was like, most religion is, but what if, you know, what’s going to come out of this? What kind of actions are we going to take? And I think that’s a big fundamental difference, right?

Nancy 30:57

And I don’t think you have to be part of an organized religion to …obviously you don’t have to be an adherent to organized religion to make those kinds of positive changes. But for me, I just get so inspired by our community.

I’m going to change gears here a little bit, because I want to acknowledge that you have little kids at home, and it’s a pandemic, and it’s 2020. And you must be so you and Julie both work full time. And how old are the kids know?

Andrew 31:23

Who knows?

Nancy 31:24

What is time? And so, are they are they on at home online? What do you guys, what’s your situation? What is your deal, Andrew?

Andrew 31:31

It’s awesome. I mean, literally, we’ve been stuck in the house for two hundred years. I mean, there’s been no breathable air for the past week. So that was fun. Yeah, I mean, you go outside, and you choke and get lung cancer in five minutes. I’ve got a five year old daughter who’s on zoom kindergarten, which is fantastic. And my second grade son is on Zoom and just thriving. And my wife is working 14 hour days, and I’m doing the same. I mean, it’s, it’s quite frankly, it’s just beautiful.

Nancy 32:03

Yeah, I know exactly what you hoped for in 2020 in January when you turned 40, “you know what, I hope I get more family time!”

Andrew 32:12

I mean, no, it’s hard. It’s hard for everybody. And we are we’re making do the best we can. We’re very fortunate that we’ve hired a woman who is our angel who comes in and helps the kids do all their zoom classes and all their homework between eight and four every day. So Julie and I can work. Yeah. But what actually has come out of this is, I don’t mind my kids anymore. I don’t mind. They’re here.

Nancy 32:36

Why would you mind your kids? You have amazing kids. It makes me Oh, you drove me crazy. When you make those jokes about them.

Andrew 32:42

It’s not a joke, man. This is the truth. Look, my life and Julie’s life was so busy pre Covid. It was 24 hours a day. Just crazy, way too crazy. And I never want to go back to that level of crazy. But now that the kids are in the house 24 hours a day, it feels like a real actual happy family. And so for me, it sucks. It sucks for everybody. But if we were to go back tomorrow, and my kids were to go to school, and I would go back to the office, I’d be heartbroken. Yeah, I missed them just like the first time you drop them off at school.

Nancy 33:14

Yeah, I hear that. I’m glad to hear that, I adore your kids. And I mean, I get it, you guys were super frantic. So it makes sense. I feel the same way. But on the other side where I’ve got my college grad and my college sophomore living at home. And I keep saying I, you know, it was so great having the empty nest and I do, for their sakes, obviously hope they can pick up and go somewhere eventually, but I’m going to miss the hell out of them. Because it’s really, it’s nice having them home, and I didn’t expect to have them home. So, you know, hopefully people will remember that this the stuff that sometimes really feels stressful and burdensome. We’re gonna miss it. Parts of it anyway.

All right, have one last question for you, Andrew, what one piece of advice do you have for people younger than you? Or do you wish you could go back and tell yourself?

Andrew 34:00

I got two things might be cheesy, but one is just be kind to people right now. And the second is Thank you. Be kind because everybody’s struggling right now. With something whether you know it or see it or don’t. And as a priest, people just naturally open up to me, and they tell me their stories. And so, I’m aware for a lot of people life is really difficult right now. So, for goodness sakes, be nice to each other.

Then the thank you: your Thank You Project was absolutely genius. I just have to say, because none of us accomplish anything on our own. I think we’re products of hundreds of thousands of people that contribute to who we are. And if you take the time to really stop and think of who those people are in your life and let them know how much you genuinely appreciate it. I think writing a handwritten letter is a very powerful way to accomplish something.

Nancy 34:49

I couldn’t agree more, and I did not pay him for that. So, I just want that to be clear, Andrew – your check is in the mail. Yeah, I do owe you a letter. You’re the only priest I know who, you know, comes up during the passing of the peace and starts talking rap lyrics. And I do appreciate that, that does make my life better. It’s in the mail, Andrew, just keep going out and go out through the smoke and check.

Thank you so, so much for coming on the show. I’m glad I finally got to hear that story of how Tupac inspired you. And I really I’m going to listen to his lyrics differently now knowing that so thank you for sharing that.

Andrew

Of course, I have a blast.

Nancy 35:25

Thank you so much.

MUSIC

Nancy 35:31

I want to take a second here to say to Andrew and to any of my listeners who are currently serving or have served our country in the armed forces. Thank you. Thank you for your bravery for your sacrifice and for your family’s sacrifice. I am really grateful for your contribution to our country’s security. So thank you so much.

After Andrew and I got off the phone, I immediately got an email from him with a list of classes that he’s compiled of college and universities offering a two part based course curriculum. Here’s a sample: UC Berkeley had a course called Poetry and History of Tupac; Harvard taught Modern Protest Literature from Thomas Paine to Tupac. The University of Washington taught Text and Tupac, and Boston University taught a course called The Gospel according to Tupac.

So obviously, Andrew is onto something. Between this and my older daughter’s freshman year advisory class that she took called “Pop and Protest” where the first assignment, and I’m not lying, her first assignment was to “think about Beyonce’s Formation video.” I really think I may have done college wrong. When she got that assignment, she called me and said, “Mom, that’s all I’ve done for the past six months.”

What did you think of today’s episode? I’d love to hear your thoughts about it. You can reach me at DJ at midlifemixtape.com if you’re into email, or you can reach out on Instagram, Facebook or Twitter @ midlifemixtape.

I hope you’ll join me for the next episode. We’re gonna be talking about midlife mental health and how we’re managing right now. My guest will give us some tips to help us hang on to whatever scraps of sanity we’ve managed to retain despite the pandemic, ongoing racial injustices, fires, hurricanes, nonstop negative political advertising, and even toilet paper shortages. And I hope that however you’re feeling you’ll hear that you are not alone, and you’re not overreacting. We will get through this. We are Gen Xers… we used to have to stand up and cross the room to change TV channels. We can handle this.

Alright, take care you guys and have a great week!

THEME MUSIC

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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