116: Diversity and Inclusion in English Rugby: Conversation with Jatin Patel, Inclusion and Diversity Director RFU England

The Elephant in the Room

Shownotes

Nelson Mandela famously said, “Sport has the power to change the world. It has the power to inspire. It has the power to unite people in a way that little else does”. There are examples the world over whether it is Cricket, Football, Athletics, Tennis ……. It brings together fans and inspires current and future generations. However, like the rest of our society and business racism and exclusion is rife in sports. The good news is that there has been a concerted effort by sportspersons, sports bodies, regulators address systemic issues in the past couple of years.

Recently, I had a wonderful opportunity to engage with Jatin Patel, to learn more about what is being done by Rugby England to bring about change. We spoke at length about the four areas of focus including i) embedding inclusion in the life cycle of employees in the org; ii) gameplay; iii) game leadership and iv) fan, followers and partners. A huge and challenging remit by any standards.

We spoke about the importance of data for building a business case in organisations; his thoughts on whether DEIB/A is really slowing down/stalling; Social mobility as one of the biggest challenges facing English Rugby; Racism at the institutional level and steps being taken to tackle the behaviour of fans and influencers; Role models; accountability and much more…….

Like to learn more, head to the links in the comments 👇🏾👇🏾

“Ultimately being in this job is about influencing. And I think a lot of leaders have realised that EDI leaders are influencers, they use knowledge and expertise and data to drive suggested ways of change, but they understand they can't do it themselves.

And I think it's that layer below where people do need more help because perhaps they've been more stretched that we need to close that gap of understanding that EDI practitioners are not there to do the job, they're there to help you and enable you to do the job, to be more inclusive, and therefore see diversity foster and succeed as a result of it.” Jatin Patel

Episode Transcript:

Sudha: Good afternoon, Jatin. Thank you for being a guest on the Elephant in the Room podcast today.

Jatin: My pleasure. And good morning to you Sudha good to see you.

Sudha: Good evening, actually.

Jatin: Oh, good evening. Of course, it's evening. I knew that. Good evening Sudha. Good to see you.

Sudha: Okay, so let's get started with a quick introduction to who you are and what you do.

Jatin: Sure. So I'm Jatin Patel and I'm the Inclusion and Diversity Director at the RFU, which is the England Rugby Football Union. Been in post now just over two years and in terms of what I do, I think the simplest way of describing the way I do my role is across kind of four critical pillars.

We look at how we can build a more inclusive and diverse approach to employees on board. So the organisation, I describe that typically as your very quintessential I&D role. So everything in relation to the employee life cycle from attraction, approaches to recruitment to progression and retention of staff. And ensuring the journey for everyone is equitable, but also that we are constantly looking to diversify our staff body.

The second pillar is gameplay. So for rugby and for me, that means everything from grassroots community rugby, all the way through to the top of our senior squads, both men and women and the pathways that sit in between them. So trying to get more people playing the game understanding the experiences they're having from an inclusivity perspective and making sure that we can make them as welcoming and positive as possible. But it's not just players, it's also match officials we need more referees and there is a lot of talk about the impact on referees in rugby in particular at the moment. And also coaches. We need coaches from all different backgrounds to not only role model inclusive behaviours, but also inspire the next generation of talent from different backgrounds, becoming coaches. So that's gameplay.

The third pillar is game leadership. So we are a governing body. We have constituency bodies based around the country, pretty much reflecting different geographies. We also have a council, which is our chief decision making body, and ultimately is trying to build more inclusivity into the way they make decisions, the way they approach their respective leadership roles. But also diversify the talent pipelines behind them, so more people from different groups and backgrounds are able to become leaders themselves within the game.

And then the fourth one is fans, followers and partners. So I try to describe that as who are our fans, how do we get more of them, what is the content we're using to sell the game. So a reflective and honest picture of what the game is, but also one that entices people to want to be involved in rugby. But then also working with a lot of corporate partners. So Umbro are one of the biggest ones, they're on the front of our shirts. And we have a host of others like Honda and British Airways, etc. And working with them to align and collaborate and achieve mutually beneficial I&D objectives. They're obviously large organisations. They have a number of areas of focus for them, which similar to ours to try to scale up our objectives and ambitions, but working together to make it meaningful and cohesive. So it's quite a long explanation of what I do. But that keeps me busy most of the time.

Sudha: My God, I bet it would keep you busy. That's a huge remit. It sounds hugely challenging too. So as a second-generation British Asian, we spoke earlier at the conference when we met last year and you were speaking about, your parents, et cetera. How important is your identity to you? And what does it mean?

Jatin: Yeah, it's a really good question.

I sometimes struggle to answer it, if I'm honest, because my heritage is incredibly important me. My parents came over from India when they were very young but not very much. And so they were kind of learning the ways of being British whilst also being strongly Indian. And I was very fortunate, I was born in South London, which is a very diverse part of the country, I then spent most of my upbringing in Brighton.

And up until recently, I've always kind of struggled to kind of connect the two because Brighton's not the most ethnically diverse part of the country, but it's an incredibly liberal, wonderful place.

I was listening to a podcast the other day with Munya Chawawa, and he talks a bit about his own upbringing in Zimbabwe and then moving to Norfolk and rural Norfolk. And he kind of nailed it in a way because I kind of spent my formative years like when I was in university suddenly meeting more Asians that weren't my family and understanding a bit more of what your typical second generation experience and upbringing in Britain was like.

And so I had to kind of find that identity. But what it means to me is that I can't pretend I'm the most religious, but faith plays a big part of my culture and my family culture. It constantly drives me. I support England in every sport except cricket, because if I didn't support India cricket, I think my family would disown me.

But I think that's okay. You can straddle multiple cultural identities and still be proud of each and strongly patriotic to each. And so it means an awful lot and it's definitely defined me. But sometimes I kind of struggle to properly identify myself, if that makes sense.

Sudha: I can imagine, I struggle with it so much, so I can't imagine what that struggle is like for, the second generation. Because at some point we start looking at our roots it's not always important, but at some point it helps to us a lot of answers. And I think to make peace with who we are and what we do.

Jatin: Yeah, it's a real dichotomy if I may say that. Cause it's like, you grew up here, you're British Indian. Because of the colour of my skin, it's obvious that you're from an Asian background, and then every time I've gone back to India, not necessarily when I was younger, but when I was kind of in adulthood, you're seen as British, you're not Indian, you're British. And you kind of like, hang on, where am I meant to belong here? . And it's not a massive problems I have in life but at the same time, it does cause a little bit of a separation.

Sudha: Absolutely. Absolutely. Moving on I hear this all the time that let's make a business case. For DEIB, or DEIA, or whatever you'd like to call it. That's the first thing everybody wants to talk about. Have you not moved? Should we have not move beyond that?

Jatin: Look, I think data is important. I think building cases for change is always important.

Any person working in sort of change management needs to build cases for it. I think from a EDI perspective, I think the continued call for business cases for this agenda I think are like you say, I think are dated. I think ultimately, if you're searching for a business case to become a more inclusive organisation I think you're missing the point about what the entire agenda is about.

And for me, it's about people, it's about human beings and ensuring you can capture and engage as much talent as possible. And that requires you to look beyond your traditional lenses. And so if you need financial business cases to do that, then I think you're kind of missing the point of the fact that actually the drivers of your commercial and financial success are the people who work for you and the work that they do and then doing it to high standard.

And therefore if you're already casting a wide net in terms of talent and engaging as many diverse populations as possible and you're reaping the rewards of that, there's no need for a business case. So yeah, I think the continued ask for a business case is I think we're definitely past that.

That said, I don't think any organisation is doing this perfectly and I think sometimes the constant need to reflect on the business case sometimes creates a bit of a barrier and a blocker to actually seeing impacts and success over time. So I think we need to move, move, not move entirely away from the business case, it's important to reflect on the data and the impact that your programs are having, but move more towards what's next, how do we make sure we continue this in a sustainable way and it doesn't become just a short term project.

And unfortunately, there are organisations that do look at it as a sort of, if we do this mentoring scheme, we introduce these apprenticeships, if we do this, then we'll see some change in a short amount of time. Actually, how do you make it meaningful and strategic over time and align it to everything that your organisation is trying to achieve, rather than as a separate sort of approach or agenda or action plan or strategy that sits alongside your broader objectives.

Sudha: Yeah, because this way when you need to make a business case every year to justify your existence every year, sometimes it's the easiest thing to ask and do away with and so we segue into the next question. Do you believe that we have lost some momentum from 2020 and that progress has stalled? Because last year, we were speaking about the Kantar report and that showed that globally it was stalling.

Jatin: Yeah. And I think, so over the last couple of years, a lot of organisations, as we saw post, the horrific killing of George Floyd, the growth of the Me Too movement, we were in a very unique place globally as a result of the pandemic.

And a lot of organisations recruited ED&I practitioners new, so, and they used those instances as a large part of the narrative behind why they were doing it. And some of it was ultimately bandwagon to some extent. So if my competitors doing it or if that organisation is doing that, we need to do the same.

And in a way, it's almost built on a false premise and it kind of speaks to the cycle of the D&I issues, which have gone around for years and years and years. And it's like, you know, not to diminish what happened in 2020, nor to diminish the efforts that a lot of people in this space make. But it's almost like organisations look at it, what is the important social issue of the month or the year, and we'll focus on that in the here and now, I don't think we are necessarily across the piece losing momentum. But I think we are in another one of those challenges where we're having to justify why this work is important.

And If I go back to the point I've made previously, it's important because it's about people, it's about human beings, it's about organisational culture, it's about people driving the success of organisations, regardless of what sector you work in. And that has to be strategic and sustained over time. And so, yes, I can see organisations cutting resource or even cutting departments in this space, but they're doing so, I would say, unfairly, because the change that we as practitioners in this world are trying to drive takes time.

It doesn't happen immediately. Yeah, there are quick wins, but if all your focus is on the short term stuff, then you're just ignoring the longer systemic institutional issues that are not three years old, they are hundreds of years old in most institutions and organisations. Particularly in a country like Britain and also in the United States.

And then if you look at it from a global perspective, I think one of the challenges has always been, and you're starting to see differences here, because the growth of D& I as an agenda, and also the quality of practitioners in other parts of the world, It's very much focused on what is culturally nuanced in those respective countries, so be it in Asia, be it in Africa, be it in the Middle East, which is right.

And again, that speaks to the broader issue here, which is there is no one size fits all. There is no one approach that works for a country, let alone the organisations that are operating in those respective nations. So, yes, I can feel the pain of practitioners and I can feel that sense of momentum being lost and resources being cut. But given a secular nature of diversity and inclusion issues, there'll be no doubt, unfortunately, that something bad will happen again, and organisations will go, well, yeah, we do need to put effort and focus on this. And almost you have to, you know, to the outside world, it'll feel like you're starting again, but actually all it's doing is allowing practitioners who are doing this and been doing it for a long time to gain that buy in from their respective leaders to carry on with the work they probably set out to do much, much, much further in advance than when the issue happened itself.

Sudha: Yeah, you know, from what I've heard you speak and I've read some of the stuff you seem like a glass half full rather than glass half empty.

So you do like to see the positives also. So from that point of view, do you see that some progress has been made and that leaders can still get this back on top of the agenda.

Jatin: Oh, absolutely. I mean, there are organisations, you know, large high profile organisations in multitude of sectors who are doing some incredible work.

And I think one of the really interesting things is that if you ask most, let's take corporate leaders, for example, whether ED&I is important. And actually, take sport for great example. If you speak to the leaders within our organisations, they absolutely will talk about the importance of ED&I, the importance of inclusivity, they understand the nuance of and the difference between inclusivity and diversity and the need as well. I think where some of the challenge probably remains is that, once we have more leaders openly talking about the importance of this stuff, perhaps it hasn't seeped through to those middle layers of management who actually do the day-to-day recruiting, who oversee the day to day cultures of organisations who are ultimately the gatekeepers to seeing equitable progression within organisations, et cetera.

I talked about earlier, so not to be hypocritical, but the importance of having a strategic approach is absolutely there, but then sitting behind that needs to be clear delivery plans and buy in at all levels of an organisation, it shouldn't just be the underrepresented groups through employee networks, whatever it might be, pushing from the bottom.

It can't just be the leaders at the very top because I genuinely believe that the vast majority are bought in. It's that large chunk of people in senior management positions inside organisations who, yes, they've got really busy jobs, they've got huge remits, they've got KPIs they need to hit. I get all of those things, but if they aren't enacting the behavioural changes that most ED& I practitioners are championing, if they're not doing it in a meaningful way, which is reflective and focused on their respective organisations, if they don't know the tactics they need to apply themselves and the role and responsibilities they have, that's where this stuff falls down and I'm not saying I'm doing it perfectly.

I don't think anyone has the secret sauce, but that's certainly the way I try to look at it. And it's the way, ultimately being in this job is about influencing. And I think a lot of leaders have realised that EDI leaders are influencers, they use knowledge and expertise and data to drive suggested ways of change, but they understand they can't do it themselves.

And I think it's that layer below where people do need more help because perhaps they've been more stretched that we need to close that gap of understanding that EDI practitioners are not there to do the job, they're...