80: A conversation with Sheeraz Gulsher, Co-Founder People Like Us on building a fairer industry

The Elephant in the Room

Shownotes

For the 80th episode of The Elephant in the Room podcast, I met with the amazing Sheeraz Gulsher, one of the co-Founders of People Like Us. People Like Us is an award winning not-for-profit that celebrates and supports media, marketing and communications professionals from Black, Asian, Mixed Race and minorities ethnic backgrounds.

According to the website they are also working towards building a fairer workplace through equitable pay. A couple of weeks ago I met with Sheeraz to learn more about the ambition and vision for People Like US.

We also spoke about:

👉🏾 The need for the industry to prioritise in order to progress

👉🏾 The role of fair pay in attracting diverse talent

👉🏾 We discussed how much progress the industry had made on equity, inclusion and belonging in the industry

👉🏾 How communications practitioners can contribute whether in their workplaces or in advising clients

We also spoke about best practice and what keeps him going.

Listen on any of your favourite podcast platforms 👇🏾👇🏾

Memorable passages from the podcast

👉🏾 Thank you very much Sudha. What an honour to be here.

👉🏾 Absolutely. So I've been in the comms industry for about eight, nine years now. I suppose showing my age. So I'm a guy that's born and bred in Luton to wonderful British Pakistani family. I've got three older brothers who are all my best mates. And yeah, I suppose in my time in comms, I've had a real rollercoaster in a fun way in the industry. And yeah, I'm really fortunate now to work at SNAP, looking after EMEA consumer coms. And I suppose in my spare time, I'm running an organisation called People Like Us, which I'm very proud of.

👉🏾 Oh, wow. You're like the grand master of comms.

👉🏾 Yeah, I'm very fortunate actually and they all are very different, I think, to each other. So my oldest brother, he is a bit like Del boy actually, it's the best way to describe him. Bit of a Wheeler dealer, but a wonderful man with a huge heart. My brother Darian is in comms and actually inspired me to join the folds. and my other brother, he is the most patient and kind person I know. And I like to think I have qualities from each of them. Maybe not all the time, but sometimes.

👉🏾 So ‘People like Us’ is essentially a movement that celebrates and supports, journalists and comms professionals from minority ethnic backgrounds. So my brother and I started this about two and a half years ago. It was just before COVID actually, and then at the time on paper, everything was great. We both had great jobs, both flying through our careers and everything was kind of great, but there was this quiet dissatisfaction, just growing. Just looking at representation in the industries, which was very low, people were being underpaid, unrepresented and blah, blah, blah, like I'm sure all your listeners have heard this all before. And we thought, why don't we try and address this? But my brother and I are, I suppose we're particularly in some ways we thought, okay, if we're gonna do this we have to follow two principles.

👉🏾 The first is whatever we do, needs to bring some kind of meaningful change, otherwise it just wasn't really worth it. We're not really here to virtue signal or whatever, and second, it just had to be fun. Like if it isn't fun, then what's point. So we kind of get close to these principles as best as we can. And we came up with a concept, People like Us, which essentially, I suppose we do a few things. The first is we host events every quarter to profile brilliant journalists marketing or comms professionals from Black, Asian, Mixed race, Minority ethnic backgrounds, and each have a fun, but slightly tricky task of essentially talking about a piece of work they're really proud of, so it could be. I don't know, a breaking a news story, they were at first, or investigative journalism piece, a PR stunt or whatever really, but they had to talk about it in three minutes. And we found it keeps things moving along, keeps things engaging. And a really nice opportunity to show the rest of the industry, what we can do.

👉🏾And since then, it's kind of grown from strength to strength, off the back of our events. People have hired from the likes of Apple or really top agencies like The Romans have hired folks, people have won new business.. importantly, I suppose it's a place where people can feel at home and not be worried and kind of be their true selves.

👉🏾 Yeah, completely. I think the murder of George Floyd and subsequent movement, I mean it was a generation-defining movement that really shook up the workplace and even just life all over the world, like particularly in UK and US. And then suddenly you saw lots of brands, companies reacting and particularly our comms industry was quick to jump in and, which on one hand was really good to see. In fact, we did some research actually a year on from the murder of George Floyd, what had actually changed. And it did find that the momentum of diversity and inclusion conversations pretty much rely on big tragedies happening, like that big event or such as the racism faced by Marcus Rashford, Bakayo Saka and Jaden Sancho after the euros penalty shootout.

👉🏾 So I think absolutely, I think the industry needs to make sure conversations around inclusion are regular, otherwise it doesn't come off as very genuine. And I think this is a conversation we've been having in comms for a long time, there's so many brilliant organisations out there that do some amazing work quietly behind the scenes, like the Taylor Bennett foundation or the PRCA.

👉🏾 I think the time is now really, we're are now snowballing into a real crisis where people are no longer going to be able to afford their bills or are borrowing money, from people they know just to get by. And I think cost of energy is just really having a major impact. And already people from minority ethnic backgrounds are disadvantaged and sort of playing catch up. So I think the industry absolutely needs to prioritise these conversations and act quickly rather than just talking about.

👉🏾 For me it's paramount. I think we were fortunate to do a study with PR Week, last year we approached them to investigate pay disparities in comms. And I think as a very first step, it's knowing the scale of a problem. So we invited agencies all around the UK, to submit their pay gap data and not only for ethnicity, but also for gender. And where we're at right now, it's really difficult to improve from there and. You absolutely need to be held accountable and you can see growth year on year. And I think it's only fair, I suppose, from an ethics point of view, there's that argument. And I think it's only fair for people applying for different roles.

👉🏾 So actually is there a pay gap in this organisation? I think they deserve to know. And yeah, I mean diverse talent deserve to be paid as good as anybody else. And I suppose the challenge we have time, time again, is leadership roles. That seems to be a big blocker, and why many people in fact leave the industry altogether, it seems to be a progressional glass ceiling. People aren't being paid where they should be or progressing as quickly as they should be. So it's their pay for me is the most important thing to addressing inequity in the industry.

👉🏾 I think I've touched on a couple of them. I think the transparency around pay is a big one. And I think it's one where we're proud to have addressed, somewhat, with PR Week last year and this year. So I think that is a big one, particularly from a minority point and comms point of view. Leadership again, it can be quite painful, actually, I think a lot of people when they're not progressing to director board or managing director levels agencies or in-house, it's becoming quite problem, I feel like it's quite hard to become what you can't see. I think I was very fortunate and I have my brother Darian who is somebody I look up to, he's my hero.

👉🏾 I see him flying through the ranks at LinkedIn and he does a wonderful job, he's so well respected. And I think unless more people start seeing that it's quite hard to keep motivated if you think actually, like, I don't look like the leadership team here, I don't look like my senior directors or VPs, could that be me one day?

👉🏾 And I think based on lived experience and a lot of people I've spoken to it is. It's quite hard and you think, oh actually like, what am I doing this for? Like, is there only so far I can go? So I think those two are some major challenges, the comms industry is facing. There are so many challenges, we can talk all day about the energy crisis or climate change or whatever, I think from an inclusivity point of view, that is a real sticking point. And I'm really hoping. And you know what, and I do believe comms as moving along and we are seeing and hearing about lots of improvements, which is great. Yeah, but those are big challenges we are facing right now.

👉🏾 I absolutely agree, I think that's the major challenge in comms. All the best brands and agencies are based in Soho or east London, which are the most diverse parts of London and the representation is like, nonexistent.

👉🏾 And if we are communicating to the wider public, it's our roles as comms professionals, to make sure we are representative of our wonderful and diverse country. At the moment, like perhaps that doesn't always come through because of representation, as you say, like in the leadership levels or agencies or whatever.

👉🏾 You know what I often think, people always say like a good test of a good PR campaign is talking to your friend at the pub who's not in comms, about an idea and will they find it funny or will they get it? And often when I see campaigns the answer is probably not . And that's a test I'm trying to build and certainly I don't always go right, if I took this to my friends in Luton who are not remotely in comms or media industry or whatever, do they know what the hell I'm talking about? And I think it's like making sure that like yeah, the boardroom and the agencies and the voices are being heard from diverse backgrounds, otherwise we absolutely risk falling increasingly out of touch.

👉🏾 Yeah. I mean I do feel like anecdotally obviously without seeing the census, but there has been improvement. I think looking around people are more conscious about creating more inclusive environment and supporting staff from, from diverse backgrounds.

👉🏾 And I think a lot has changed in two years. I think it's great. People are having these conversations. And I think in time it will become the norm, to just take action, really, to actually have a real hard look at the boardroom or the leadership team or pay gaps in an organisation and actually make choices there rather than just talking about that as a primary thing.

👉🏾 That time is now really, I think the only way we are really gonna make comms inclusive and representative of our incredible country is to make sure that communicators are, are like from a breadth of backgrounds and people know, like there's so many good reasons to do it, obviously outside of the, the ethical reason of like everyone having fair opportunities. It's actually great for business. Great for innovation, and it's great for like team morale, and everything else. I would say to anyone listening to this actually. Why is inclusivity, useful? Essentially it's like having brand new people in the room who have lived experience that you don't have and have insights that are incredible, and lived.

👉🏾 And it's like using those and I think that's what makes a wonderful team really, is our differences that, make us stronger. So I do think like, it's probably quite easy to say "actually not much has changed", but I do feel like things are happening in the background.

👉🏾 PRCA did some really cool stuff. I think PR Week have been really, really strong and really forward thinking. So, yeah, I've got faith.

👉🏾 It's a really good question. And it's something that I get asked as well quite often. Cause I suppose my day job, I take a lot of pride in being a comms professional that really enjoys media relations or working with influencers, or setting up events, or like all facets of comms, really.

👉🏾 And is it our role, to be able to like bring D&I in. I mean, for me, I suppose it's a personal thing. I think it's hugely important, to have that lens on. I feel like that should be considered in all facets of, of your role. And I think that starting to really shine through, particularly in the way lots of agencies are handling campaigns now. They're thinking about these things from the very beginning, from the very start. It's actually who's in the room for a brainstorm? Is it people from like, if we're doing a brainstorm about, I dunno, Ramadan or Eid, like, do we have some Muslim folks in room to have people from different backgrounds to get their opinion, get their take. And right through the entire journey, people are really starting to think about.. actually from suppliers. Which photographers are we working with?

👉🏾 Which models are we using? Who's on the selling-in team? Who is it on the brand side that we can consult? And I think it's great. And I think that's how all campaigns should be. I think PR has evolved now into like being more thoughtful and mindful. And as we say, that's what makes it beautiful and that's what makes it more representative.

👉🏾 And it's gonna resonate more with different audiences. If we're doing an Eid campaign and that was worked on by a staff of Muslim backgrounds or whatever, have that experience, they'll be able to know actually these are the nuances for Eid, or whatever we're working on. And I think that's great.

👉🏾 And I think people are, starting to include that more, which is really, really positive to see.

👉🏾 I think a good recent example is LinkedIn supporting the Women's Euros. So they've been, long-term supporters. They were big sponsors across the ground, the teams and they've kind of quietly just kind of got on with it and, and obviously. It's the Lionesses got to the final and they won it and it was, it was just stunning.

👉🏾 I remember afterwards there were a couple of interviews where in a nutshell, the likes of like Ian Wright and a couple other commentators said, well, if you're a corporate or brand or a company, that's here now, like after they've won their first major championship since 1966, you're too late to the party.

👉🏾 Which I thought was really, really fascinating. Cause I thought obviously LinkedIn, isn't the only brand to have worked with the England football team, but, I thought, wow, like, you know in having that, they really firmly believe that actually women's soccer is amazing.

👉🏾 And there's so many amazing role models there. It's a great career, and really championed them. And I thought it was just a really beautiful thing and it is not like they've flaunted it. All the other brands actually, that have been on there for the journey haven't flaunted it. The way it all unravelled was just really, really touching. And it shows that actually like being inclusive and being open, it is a wonderful thing.

👉🏾 Exactly. Exactly. And I think consistency is also important rather than reacting, or something amazing or something really awful to happen. I think standing by your values and your beliefs it truly truly goes a long way.

👉🏾 Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of work. I think working with an incredible company like Snap, it's a busy day job. And working across EMEA, it's always lots of fun, weird and wonderful challenges. And it's really enjoyable and often I think for, most people, a full-on in-house role when you're working across so many regions. I think with People like Us, it is something really important to me. I think it means everything to me that people should feel like they should belong. People feel like, they're being paid fairly and respected. It means a lot, I think the past two and a half years doing this like reviewing CVs pretty much every day or two and hearing people's stories, it is special.

👉🏾 Cause people let you in on what's happening with them and what's happening on their lives. That's something always like very special. And to me, it drives me. It's just connecting with people in a, in a meaningful way. And, and yeah, like having a really small part in helping them feel like they can succeed, they can work at incredible companies and, and they can belong. Cause everyone deserves to feel hope and everyone deserves to belong.

👉🏾 Thank you Sudha that I really, really enjoyed speaking with you.

Follow Sheeraz Gulsher:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sheerazgulsher/?originalSubdomain=uk

Twitter: @WanderSheeraz

Website: https://www.plu.org.uk/about

Important Links:

https://ethicalmarketingnews.com/people-like-us-a-celebration-of-diversity-in-the-media-and-communications-industry

https://www.prweek.com/article/1795142/people-us-calls-mandatory-ethnicity-pay-gap-reporting

https://www.thesun.co.uk/money/15729445/people-like-us-diverse-workforce/