Episode #195 – Joel Ray On The Magic Of Direct Marketing Fundamentals
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Manage episode 258580313 series 1567841
Joel began to wonder early in his life…
…what separates people who make a living doing magic and those who do not?
They work more.
Period.
His father was not as enthusiastic and ordered Joel to get an education.
“If you’re going to be a bum, at least be an educated bum.”
What was the answer to fulfilling his goal of turning pro?
Marketing.
From an excellent professor in his college marketing classes to the works of Dan Kennedy…
…Joel accumulated marketing knowledge and savvy and took the most important step…
He put it into action.
Soon he was performing often for birthday parties.
Then preschools.
Summer camps.
He even sold Santa Claus.
Sit back and listen.
Joel’s been making a living using classic direct marketing techniques for a long time.
A return to fundamentals is always like re-reading a good book.
Sometimes you lose your way with all the newfangled media.
He drops some excellent knowledge in this episode.
In this episode, you’ll discover:
- The number one method Joel uses to go into the many markets he works. (Is your small business using this?)
- The allied arts to magic are many (ventriloquism, mentalism, pick-pocketing etc.). Do you know THESE allied marketing arts?
- The way Joel stands out from other magicians when he enters a market and how you should do the same.
- Joel’s honest, “no bull crap” advice about testimonials and social proof.
- Clear and straightforward practical psychology of attracting work to you.
Mentioned:
- The World of Dr. Magic
- Joel Ray – The Gentleman Magician
- Dr. Magic on Facebook
- David Allan’s Make Words Pay
Intro and outro backing music: Forever More by CREO
David Allan: Hey, everybody – we’re back again for
another edition of the podcast I am David Allan and today we have a very interesting guest is personal friend of mine who I have become closer here in the last couple months because I’m in New Orleans visiting and I have another magician friend of mine
works in an entirely different venue – in fact several venues and he does a lot of marketing. His marketing skills go back
decades and so I would like to welcome Joel Ray to the show, how are you?
Joel Ray: I’m fine and I like how you worked in that I’m an old guy and my marketing skills go back many decades or as the
director of my TV show used to tell his parents – not his parents his daughters, just to say that Joel is as old as dinosaur dung.
David Allan: Well your social insurance number was like three
right?
Joel Ray: Yeah but that’s our little secret Dave thank you for telling everybody and ruining it.
David Allan: Now take us back because you’re a full time magician that’s what you do this for a living here…
Joel Ray: Right, yeah I don’t have a real job…
David Allan: Yeah you don’t have like another day job
Joel Ray: Right people ask me that what’s your day
job? I go this is my day job, my night job, my all the time job…
yeah so take us back to
the beginning of all this how did you
get into magic and then how did you you
know transition into the venues that
you’re in now okay I’ll make it short
and how I got into magic because this is
a marketing podcast sir I’ll get heavily
into the marketing really quick briefly
how I got into magic is a cliche thing
like most people I got interested as a
kid I was six years old
I got interested in magic at six so I
guess I was maybe six and a half at that
time you know I was in my sixth year and
for my eighth birthday I got a magic set
and I’ve been doing it ever since so 10
years now 10 years so that’s a joke you
folks can’t see me but I’m well over I’m
well over 18 I that’s a joke yeah I got
into magic I got a magic sense when I
was 8 and I’m doing it
use them your ways that the first in
seven years your life yeah thank you
thank you thank you know I’m 60 years
old so that’s why when people see me
they get the joke absurd said the sort
of a visual component of that joke but
the important thing from a marketing
standpoint is that I wanted to be a
magician for a living when I was say
about 14 is when it really hit me and I
was uh well really even earlier than
that in junior high but I would say
somewhere in high school I really wanted
to be a magician for a living and I’m
thinking to myself how can you do that
and I realized the difference between
somebody who makes a living as a
magician and somebody who doesn’t is
they work more right and usually the
overhead isn’t much because you can be a
professional magician out of your house
or your apartment in other words you
don’t need a separate office or a
warehouse so the overhead isn’t what
kills you it’s you don’t get enough work
you don’t have enough revenue coming in
so then I just sat down and thought
about it almost commonsensical II I said
to myself well how do you get work and I
just at that level I knew I wasn’t gonna
get an agent or anything and also I grew
up in Louisiana so they weren’t big-time
theatrical agents I realized it would be
up to me so how do you get work and then
I realized well through marketing at
first I did just advertising but then I
learned about marketing as an entire
concept not just advertising a publicity
PR all aspects of promoting yourself and
so I studied marketing on my own mostly
now my dad made me go to college I
wanted to become a professional magician
right out of high school and that would
have probably not been my best move you
know he had the greater maturity of get
a good education my dad used to tell
people you can be a bum if you want to
be but you’re gonna be educated right so
I tell people that’s what I became an
educated bum but bless you for laughing
at the jokes Dave thank you
so then what I got interested in magic
um excuse me in marketing say both M
words magic in marketing I was already
instituted magic and I got interested in
marketing and I got really serious about
it a little in high school but in
college and got really serious about it
I took some marketing classes and I had
a wonderful marketing professor in
particular that opened up some doors for
me and mentally doors and then whatever
I really learned marketing and probably
like most of the people listening to us
right now is self-study right you know
reading everything I get my hands on I
go back to when also when you got
courses in marketing they were on
cassettes I said right and I always had
a manual and audio cassettes they can’t
wear those foam like foaming past I like
things that clip together absolutely
going way back yes and and I’ve read all
of the the major marketing minds that
I’m sure you know everybody listening
has I guess Dan Kennedy everybody is a
disciple of Dan Kennedy’s and we always
show we’ve said in the past and many
people say elsewhere that all roads lead
to Dan Kennedy yes that’s that that says
it very well because for instance Dave D
has taught a lot of people but he
learned through Dan and has been other
marketers who’ve learned through Dan but
I read everybody uh you and I had dinner
tonight we’re talking about a recent
trout dinner right also that’s another
thing too
Dave is visiting me at my home this is
his first time here and I showed him my
you know book collection on marketing
books but I’ve also read a lot and I I
want to put this here on the podcast
because I think it would benefit your
listeners Dave what I call the Allied
Arts to marketing see and magic we have
allied arts like ventriloquism juggling
you know the other variety arts balloon
twisting I mean you know the other
variety artists are allied to magicians
well in marketing I would say the Allied
Arts are like you’re gonna study
Blissett II persuasion negotiation
these are charisma yes I’m reading some
excellent books on charisma and I read I
had a a course in charisma again
audiocassette course I think might be it
might be CDs and remember but all these
things would be allied to marketing you
know because you persuasion goes hand in
hand with marketing negotiating um you
know charisma I mean if if everybody’s
repulsed by you how effective is your
marketing gonna be right you know if you
can’t write effective marketing like you
work a number of different will call
venues mm-hmm for the uninitiated so
this would be different places you do
you magic right so this is like
restaurants preschool shows for toddlers
summer camps as big you do summer camps
yeah so you know how did you initially
get the first few gigs that you were
paid for like what how did you find
those and then take us through the
evolution of like your system that you
can acquire work well going way back I
just did birthday parties been going
back to when I was in high school I did
almost exclusively birthday parties I
didn’t even know of other venues then
occasionally things would fall in my lap
I did a breakfast with Santa Anna
McDonald’s and I opened for Santa Claus
and ironically something like thirty
years later I put together a package
where I worked with another magician of
a retired magician dick Aslan who I’ve
mentioned he played Santa Claus and I
opened for Santa Claus and I sold it as
a package to daycares and preschools
during the holiday season and so you
know Santa’s the bigger star so I did an
abbreviated 15 to 20 minute magic show
then I bring Santa Claus on yes and and
he would do the usual thing
you know he listen to what they want for
Christmas that kind of thing how I get
the the engagements I get now the
methods very one of the most effective
methods for me or postcards right I use
postcards in in most of the markets I
pursue um and the reason I use postcards
is as you know the challenge of a
regular mail is getting the envelope
opened right and a lot of people see the
return address and they put it in a
circular file the garbage can attract so
postcards why use postcards that are
already open they’re less expensive to
mail at the time we’re we’re doing this
postcards a thirty-five cents and
first-class mail is 49 cents so and that
matters when you start mailing out
hundreds and hundreds well that little
does you know that fourteen cent
difference adds up correct so for every
hundred years saving fourteen dollars by
sending postcards as a pass to first
quest ma’am also I’ve structured my
postcards to where almost all of them
are three paragraphs with a picture and
a caption and those of you that know
marketing know you should always include
a picture and if you include a picture
you always include a caption also I the
reason my postcards tend to be three
paragraphs is I’ve timed that you can
read the postcard in 20 seconds and what
that does for me is since they’re
already open and you can read them in 20
seconds I get in your head even if
you’re not interested when you look at
it you have got my message through to
you also I use the dual track method for
people that just read headlines and
captions and look at pictures and then
the other track would be people to read
every word so postcards are big for me
I’m trying to think of other marketing
methods I use postcards are really
really strong for me oh I have a Booker
who telephone solicits for me she calls
this yes yes and somebody’s gone back to
past engages people have engaged you in
the past
correct now it’s it’s cold calling from
the recipient standpoint but she’s
working from a list in other words she’s
not working from the phone book or
something she’s working from a list of
camps or list of restaurants or whatever
now with restaurants she tries to just
get me an appointment and I go close in
person that’s another thing I would say
that’s an allied art to marketing is
selling in my life I’ve done some well
more than some a lot of what they call
belly-to-belly selling and Dan Kennedy
touches on importance of that so does
exude was correct so I can also
belly-to-belly sell I can close I can
sell and my friend Dave here was asking
me how you get restaurants and there’s a
slow way in a fast way the slow way is
to send postcards over a long period of
time
for instance every three weeks for a
year and they know who you are and then
when you go in and talk to them they’ve
heard of you and a fast way is to just
go into the restaurant and break out a
deck of cards and show your waitress
some card tricks and then she wants to
show whether we’re spectacles
exactly and then the manager comes over
what’s this about and you impress
everybody in sight and that you never
the key there those never ask for a job
where they suggest that maybe you do
some magic there at their restaurant
right but that’s the quicker way right
it’s like it’s like bolder yet more
subtle in some ways yes because you’re
not asking all right for a job you’re
kind of saying oh this is a nice place
you know I used to do this you fudge a
little on me well in my case now other
used to do it is a bill Malone wine in
my case I would say that I do it now but
I do it somewhere else right but I take
still the bill Malone approach
psychologically in that I come off as I
don’t need any more work right look you
said lassic you know if you don’t need
it people chase you mm-hmm
chase what moves away from them all
those kind of ideas the key is to I
would say if you’re gonna use that
technique to never ask for a job I think
it’s really hard to go into a restaurant
cold or even with an appointment say you
met you phoned and make it and made an
appointment and to to pitch yourself
because you and that’s can be one of the
weaknesses of selling in general outside
sales where you go and solicit you know
not where they come in to you is you
there’s a sort of a psychological
standpoint of you you’ve got your
hat in your hands so to speak yes and
you’re asking them for a job with them
to buy your products they just walk in
off the street and I’m selling bottled
water
just some to grab my Hatton in my hand
you know please buy what I’m selling
right now are there other ways in your
marketing that you try to set up that
you know we’re talking about positioning
over dinner you know there are other
psychological things you’re doing
amongst your marketing to sort of give
that impression maybe that you are the
hand and a hand guy even though you’re
out reaching with the postcards and so
forth because yeah and I think I could
answer this partially for you because I
mean you have a TV show yes you have
other things that go on let me tell you
real quick yeah this keeps me from
appearing to have my hat in my hand and
again it’s sort of I don’t know people
want to work with you when you don’t
appear to need the work
but one of the things that a lot of
marketing books will tell you to do is
to offer social proof that you’re good
and this doesn’t have to just do with
magic anything you know the product I
sell and it could be say I’m selling
like Ginsu knives or something else and
mrs. such-and-such says it’s the best
knife she ever used or mrs.
such-and-such says he’s the best
magician I’ve ever seen you see what I’m
saying you get they say get testimonials
as social proof I think just for me now
because I know everybody out there can’t
have their own TV show but for me the TV
show is stronger social proof that I’m
good at what I do are unqualified than a
testimonial I personally don’t like
testify testimonials because and you
could call me a cynic here but there
there are things where a cynic could
could dismiss the testimony I’ll give
you for instance Dave you’re a friend of
mine so let’s say you say in a
testimonial David Allen says the Joel
raised great he’s the best catalyst
thing best ever saying well you’re a
friend doing me a favor okay so that
could be a cynical view let’s say it’s a
legitimate testimonial your David Allen
your
vice-president of so-and-so you know and
you’re saying you had me at a corporate
function and I was great yeah and it’s
legitimate again how does the cynic know
it’s legitimate right you say okay so
first I can think you’re a friend number
two it could be legitimate but I’m
dismissing it because I have doubts um
number three oh and it’s another thing
too it is legitimate but I don’t know
you right so I don’t care what mr. vice
president says you say so many testimony
and then the third one is and this is
the worst when they think this it’s made
up right just totally made up there is
no davidow and I made you up yeah they
make the mistake of putting like you
know D Allen oh that’s another thing too
yeah with a testimonial ad I couldn’t
track you down
if I wanted to verify it you know if I
say David Allen vice president of Exxon
Northeast region based on the USA Bible
I could yes if somebody really wanted to
we could find you in the New York City
office but yeah if I just say D Allen of
of New York State says yeah yeah no not
good but I just think even legitimate
testimonials are largely worthless but
my TV show well you can find my TV show
you’re watching yes yeah it’s it’s it’s
it’s real and it’s proof and also it’s
more rare than having housewives and in
corporate vice president’s say you’re
good yeah that’s that’s common in it for
instance if you can’t get corporate vice
presidents or housewives to say you good
you can make it up right yeah it’s
almost like so commonplace that people
dismiss it yes it’s a popular way to do
it of course but like you said you know
another way to do the testimonials too
of course which is to have which I
believe I first heard from John Carlton
which is to have the testimonial
specifically tailored you’re gonna have
testimonials haven’t specifically
tailored to these specific objections
you know this person let’s say
it’s a magic let’s say you’re you know
it’s a family friendly show so the
objection might be the last magician we
hired for a little Timmy’s birthday
party he worked kind of on the fringe of
good taste
mmm let’s say please because your
testimony says no we had Joel ray to our
party and he is the most family-friendly
kid-friendly show in Louisiana yeah that
helps a bit spits right to the point
it’s overcoming that specific objection
what what I what I wanted to say about
though still what I would advise your
your listeners to do if they can is to
do their own version of what I’ve done
where my TV show is my social proof and
it’s better than testimonials for
instance what I would advise you to do
is if you could get a picture with a
celebrity and get them to give you a
testimonial so say Brad Pitt the movie
star says you know he saw you work and
you were great and he’s got you’ve got a
picture of you with Brad Pitt so that
they know who that’s another thing see
they don’t know who misses such and such
a housewife that says you’re great is
and they don’t know that the corporate
vice president is but they know who Brad
Pitt is so there’s your real strong
social proof and and he just packs
weight because he’s a major celebrity
I don’t care what your politics are
maybe you like the president or maybe
you don’t but you’ve got a picture with
the president and the president says
you’re good yeah you know or I mean it’s
also a matter of the president knows
it’s like it’s the idea that these are
the president of the United States it’s
not you know your politics this one you
know well also movie stars as people
that would like for instance Brad Pitt
and people who don’t but he’s got the
cachet of Brad Pitt and a major movie
star said I’m good if you can and also
maybe you can think up a way of of
social proof that’s not the normal
testimonial as I’ve done with the TV
show think up your own way but something
that surpasses the average testimonial
is social proof one other thing I wanted
to touch on you were talking about
giving an exam
Belov you know the testimonial being
customized to the event like it was a
great children show I was wholesome and
or it was the best corporate write
presentation we’ve seen okay in my
marketing and this is advice I could
give to your listeners I custom tailor
all my marketing to the different I used
the term venue I tend to use the term
market for instance summer camps are a
market for me restaurants or a market
for me but this is the point I wanted to
make here and it and I hope you guys are
listening and girls listening to this
would do this with your marketing if
you’re going to market to a certain
market make it look like that’s what you
do for instance and that’s all you do
for instance the the restaurant that get
my postcards it appears that I’m a
restaurant magician and that’s how I
make my living solely I only work
restaurants daycares and preschools that
get a postcard for me it looks like I’m
a day care preschool magician and that’s
all I work the summer camps they don’t
even know what other things I do but
I’ve got a summer camp show I call it
the summer fun magic show the point is
people hire specialists what really
makes you look bad and it’s not just in
magic it’s in any area like say you’re a
marketing consultant really to claim
you’re a marketing expert in every area
in radio TV print internet come on
well it’s the same thing with magic I do
kids parties and everything else know
you know you know see now by the way
since I mentioned working different
markets it may seem like I’m
contradicting myself I’m not I work the
family market I worked the the g-rated
you know mom-and-pop in the kids market
so I do very little corporate in a when
I do the mom-and-pop in the kids market
I do it as a character called doctor
magic when I work strictly for adults in
a coat in time I’m Joel Ray but see
that’s again what I’m talking about I
separate the markets right you’re
telling everything
for that means correct correct you can’t
people don’t like a jack-of-all-trades
they really don’t yes maybe their master
of nothing them correct and even in a
g-rated mom-and-pop market they only
know me for the specific sub market I
guess you would say that I mean right
because I mean your postcard say stuff
like you know verbiage is like the
world’s greatest preschool magician or
something or the world’s greatest
restaurant you know the Civic League
tailor it’s like you seem like you’d
that’s like you said they it’s all
exactly all you do and you’re the best
at this one thing even though you do all
these market they’ll know that right you
know so because they’re hiring a
specialist so how people gotta hope you
if they want to well it depends if you
want family type entertainment you you
can learn about me at dr. magic world
come I always abbreviate the doctor so
that’s dr Magic normal Spelling ma GIC
world normal spelling all run together
cuz it’s a website dr. magic worldcom
that’ll tell you all about me I have a
number of websites for dr. magic that’s
my main booking site if you’d like to
look at my TV show it’s dr. magic show
dot-com right now that’s mainly you’re
gonna see my TV show and it’s a kid show
I gotta warn you you adults out there
it’s a kiddie show that I have a fansite
dr. magic minions calm again abbreviate
dr. normal spelling on magic normal
spelling on minions dot-com and that’s
my fansite because a dr. magic fan is a
magic minion right a Grateful Dead tube
and the Grateful Dead have the deadheads
I have the magic minions and that’s a
fansite now for you adults listening on
dr. magic minions there’s a internet
only show
besides my over-the-air TV show see on
dr. magic show calm it’s my over-the-air
half-hour show just on the Internet
those episodes are a half-hour on dr.
magic minions calm there’s a show called
moments with dr. magic that’s internet
only each episodes only 10 minutes long
about
and there’s three questions and three
magic tricks there’s no commercials it’s
made for the Internet there’s no TV
commercials on and what I do is I answer
questions about magic that people have
asked me over the years I’m sure you’ve
gotten these questions Dave do magicians
use their sleeves right modern magicians
was Houdini the greatest magician of all
true and I when I asked what I’m working
I might give a flip or a joking answer
on the show I give an honest answer a
straight answer
and in between I do a magic trick so I
answer a question do a magic trick
answer a question do a magic trick I do
three questions three tricks and a
show’s over that’s why it’s ten minutes
so for you adults doctor magic minions
is the website and in moments with dr.
magic is the TV show or the Internet
only show and you might enjoy that more
than the doctor magic show which is a
kiddie show those are three ways to in
it and all the websites have how to get
in touch with me now if you would like
to have Joel Rey that’s my real name
entertain at an adult function say a
cocktail party with classical music in
the background and we’re sipping wine
and it’s also sophisticated it’s also
sophisticated where I’m wearing a coat
and tie and I’m not dr. magic you would
go to magic Joel comm again normal
spelling on magic normal spelling on
Joel Jo al magic Joel comm and that’s my
website for adult functions and doesn’t
I type stuff so that’s how you can get
in touch with me very nice very nice
this hour has literally flown by
Joel’s dropped all sorts of great
marketing knowledge and I wanted to
stuff that’s like fundamentals that are
good to review too because people you
know you’re gonna start to keep the
fundamentals sharp and keep those things
rollin and Joel has made his whole
career you know of taking these now very
simple but often overlooked and under to
utilize things like postcards and stuff
to keep his magic revenue streams
cranking in his
it shows you know coming in by the
truckload and Joel it’s been a pleasure
to have you on the show thank you thank
you it’s been a pleasure being here and
for everybody else we’ll be back again
next week hopefully with somebody as
semi good-looking and knowledgeable as Joel
The post Episode #195 – Joel Ray On The Magic Of Direct Marketing Fundamentals appeared first on Drop Dead Copy.
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