Suzie Lewis Talks Transformation and Unlocking Potential

The Passionistas Project Podcast

Suzie Lewis is the Managing Director at Transform for Value and host of the podcast "Let's Talk Transformation." She’s passionate about connecting people, their potential, collective intelligence and equipping organizations to get the best out of individuals and teams. Her quest is to constantly bridge the gap between digital and human and create more inclusive and collaborative cultures in organizations.

Learn more about Suzie here.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project here.

Full Transcript:

Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast, where we talk with women who are following their passions to inspire you to do the same. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and today we're talking with Suzie Lewis, the Managing Director at Transform for Value and the host of the podcast, Let's Talk Transformation.

She's passionate about connecting people, their potential collective intelligence and equipping organizations to get the best out of individuals and teams. Her quest is to constantly bridge the gap between digital and human, and create more inclusive and collaborative cultures in organizations. So please welcome to the show, Suzie Lewis.

Suzie: Hi, I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me.

Passionistas: Thanks so much, Suzie. Thanks for your time today. So what's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Suzie: People. I think people and connecting people, which is where the unlocking potential comes from. I worked in an organization for 20 years and I just saw so much wasted potential or untapped potential.

And I just thought, wow, we've got to do something about this. And I come from a family of very strong women. And I'm a big believer in sistership and we've always had each other's backs and I've always had that privilege, to have that space. And I thought if I don't create it for others, I'm missing a trick and I'm not putting myself at the service of creating a more inclusive and equitable world.

But I work mainly in organizations. I'm also a cellist in an orchestra. I have been playing the cello for a very long time, over 30 years, and I love the analogy between the orchestra, and what I'm trying to create in society. Essentially, each person comes with that individual potential, but it's essentially about the collective result and how each person contributes to that and how the diversity of profiles and the diversity of capabilities, how it brings to the force something completely different that is harmonious. Even if the way towards that harmony is not harmonious.

So I'm passionate about people. I love connecting people and I love playing in orchestra for the same reason. It's about listening intently and deliberately to what's being played, but also what isn't being played.

And I think in organizations and in human relationships, it's exactly the same. We listen to reply and not to understand. So my big quest is to democratize access to these dialogue skills and for people to have different conversations and more courageous conversations in the workplace. And I think women bring something innately to that table.

So I'm a big believer in the emotional layer of organizational culture and how we unwrap that and make it more normalized in the way people with.

Passionistas: So let's take a step back. Tell us about those amazing women from your early life and where you grew up, what your childhood was like.

Suzie: Basically today I'm based in France, but I grew up in UK and those fabulous women where my mom and my three sisters and my dad's great as well, but we had this safe space and it was predominantly discussion on equity, and how to create different spaces. My parents were both doctors and researchers, and also spent a lot of time counseling people. And we've always had these discussions on the table explicitly around healthy challenging, listening to others and making sure each voice is heard.

And my grandma, who is actually my role model for courage and confidence. She was just incredible. And she worked in a time, unfortunately for her, when women didn't have the empowerment we have today. My goodness, if she'd have had the empowerment we have, and she always used to say that to us. Oh, if I had your opportunities, I'd be doing something different, something bigger, something, but she was already big for me. That was the inspiration and it runs through the family.

And when I did my studies and I started studying cultural identity, as well as French and international economics, and I thought, okay, there's something in here about how the world works. And there's something in here, where I feel like make a difference with my innate skill set, which was, I just love discovering people, and I just really want to understand what their potential is and what that means for me, but also for where we work and how we can scale that if you like across what's happening. Particularly today in the digital age, where what keeps us relevant is our innately human qualities. So humility, creativity, imagination, which is where we come to my quest for different types of leadership in organizations, but also elsewhere.

And then I've always been parts of orchestras and charities and associations. And I'm currently part of an association to get more girls into the tech world and into stem. And it's a big, important piece for me, partly because of what women bring to the table, but just parity in. Equal opportunities and getting people to have real conversations because otherwise we just skirt around these issues and we just don't go there.

And I want people, particularly women to know that it's possible. How many times have people said to me, it's not possible. You can't do that. No, you don't have those skillsets. And I've always thought, well, don't tell me it's impossible. Cause it's not. That's always been my driver. And that came from my grandma and my parents and my sisters.

And my sisters are my three best friends. And we have this great space where we're still helping each other. We were all in different countries. And it taught me how to be humble. It taught me how to ask for help. And it taught me how to think about how I want to show up. And I think those questions are fundamental and they don't get asked enough.

And I just had so much fun. I think once you have that type of relationship, you can have fun doing really serious quests. I found my tribe, if you like. And I decided that building tribes was the way forward. I remember when I moved to France and I was working in France, and I thought, this system is really different. I'm finding it quite constrained, quite rigid. So what do I? I either sit and complain about it or I go back to UK or I think about how I can change it. And I thought, no, that's going to be my challenge. I'm going to look at how I can change organizational culture and create the space that we work in.

I worked in like a manufacturing production environment, very masculine, but I just thought I'm going to take that as an opportunity. So I'm not going to sit and think, oh, there's only 17% of women. And I thought, okay, how can I get like-minded people and make this an inclusive discussion and move forward with it?

I just found some of what I was seeing so unfair. And I thought, okay, if I stay and if I just don't do anything, I'm condoning it. And I refuse to do that. So I went and found as many people as possible and created small communities within the organization. And we may change. And clearly, you know, large organizations, you can't change everything, but it's very satisfying to watch people have light bulb moments and then suddenly their potential just explodes. And that's just brilliant. And I think, wow, I thought you might do this, or I thought you might do that. And they surprise themselves. And I think that's a very satisfying thing to see.

Passionistas: Now is this the industry you're talking about, is this the aeronautical industry?

Suzie: Yeah.

Passionistas: So tell us a little bit about working in that industry. What did you do?

Suzie: It's very interesting. I basically started as a lean expert on the supply chain and they trained me in that. And I do like operations, and I like doing, and I like seeing the impact of what I'm doing and there's no better way than lean on a production line. You see it, you see it coming in, coming off, you see what's happening.

But as we started to put lean in place, I thought, okay, how are we going to lead this? This is quite a different way of working. And we set up the leadership academy and we started looking at all the issues, challenges, but also the opportunities that were coming up from that. And I got more and more involved in the HR system where I was working and I thought, I don't really understand this, and I don't think it's unlocking potential.

So I went to join HR. So I went to join HR to understand what was going on and how I could make a difference and how they worked and what their mindset was. I think the best thing about where I worked was, yes, it's quite a traditional sort of industrial manufacturing environment, and the mindset goes with that.

But I never had any issue going and asking for what I wanted. Sometimes they said no. But more often than not, they said, if you're willing to try it and it's your responsibility, then off you go. And maybe I just had great bosses or people who were willing to take a chance on me, but, you know, I did have bosses who said no. And then my thought process was okay, so how else can I make a difference?

So I started as a lean expert and then I went into HR and then I got hooked. I got hooked on, why are we only talking about process? What's going on here? Why aren't we talking about the emotional layer? So I stayed in HR for 10 years.

I thought if I want to change, what's going on here, I need to understand the operation. So I went into HR operations and I did HR business partnering, and I ran the recruitment services and we set up the shared services for recruitment. And during that time I looked at the recruitment process and the talent we were bringing in and thought this is not very diverse.

So I said, can we do an experiment on diversifying recruitment? So that got me thinking about how I could think outside the box and how I could get the organization to think outside the box. And then I went into take on a position as head of diversity and inclusion because I thought, okay, this is a big subject. And for me, it is the subject for competitive advantage.

And it's not just HR tick box exercise, and it's not just how many women we've got or how many other minority groups we've got. This is about people. And this is about creating an environment where people can thrive as opposed to strive. And because the culture was quite command and control in terms of leadership, there were quite a lot of people's suffering and I could see that.

And they couldn't see a way out. And I felt that it was HR's job, but also every leader's job to look into their teams and have that discussion, which of course is quite a big ask because it's a difficult discussion to have. So I basically took diversity inclusions that I want to put it up with strategic objectives, culture, change, business objectives, leadership.

And then we moved into a time when we wanted to build an internal leadership university. And they asked me if I would like to do that. And I was just thrilled with that project. It was a fab project, but there was four of us running it, so that was a collective management thing.

And the more I got into these activities, I thought 1) I have a massive volume proposition here. 2) I'm seeing the impact of people co-creating together and seeing what that can do to organizational culture wellbeing, but also productivity. And 3) organizations are missing a trick if they don't want to look beyond what they do today.

So we did that and we basically looked at the whole thing, organizational design, but also how to create a platform for human transformation. What does it mean? How do people learn. How do we interact with the business? How do you support people on the job day in, day out? And how do you equip organizations with a coaching culture? A culture of more lifelong learning, as opposed to I sit in a classroom for two days. And then, yeah, I do remember something they told me about emotional intelligence and how to communicate.

Which is why of course change stalls because they don't practition it. They don't practition what I call the human systems of an organization, which is, you know, the human element. And now we're in the digital age where everything's about ecosystems. I just felt really strongly that if we don't equip people to understand the human systems, it's just going to get worse because we can collaborate with online tools and we can have virtual meetings, but the human connection is the way we're wired.

So we built the Leadership University and that was one of my favorite favorite projects ever. And we built communities of practice and we went from 900 members to 12,000 and I was just like, wow, what can we do here? This is so cool! The best thing was the other people that thought it was so cool, which meant that we got momentum in the organization. Some people didn't believe in it, but, you know, fair enough. That's humans, isn't it. You don't always get a hundred percent unanimity.

But it was great. And I got massively challenged on my ideas and we created new ideas. I just felt that we unlocked so much potential in the groups we were in that we took it to the talent management and said, you know, what do we do with this?

And then digital transformation came along and we got more and more tools and more and more speed of change. And then I decided that I was a bit bored of the big machine and it was too rigid and there were reasons why I couldn't do things that were outside of reasons for my competence, it was either political or it wasn't the right time or budgetary.

And so I decided that I would step out of the organization and do exactly the same thing on my own, because I also wanted to see other organizations, other industries. I wanted to work with charities. I wanted to work with start up. I wanted to work with SMEs. So that's what I did.

It's quite a bold move actually, now that I think about it. I probably didn't think about it enough, which is why I just did it. But yeah. So I stepped out with the organization and I set up my own business. And I thought, what do I call it? Transformation was clear. Value was clear. I thought, okay, well, don't overcomplicate this. I'll just call myself Tranform for Value because that's basically what I want to do.

And behind that, it's about unlocking potential. So it's about transforming with a deliberate intention to create human value..

Passionistas: While you were getting people to think more about diversity and inclusion, and while you were creating this university, what was the impact that you saw on the company and through those initiatives that you helped create?

Suzie: I think the first impact is always engagement. You have engagement scores and things like that. But you also have people coming to you when you think that's why I do what I do. When people come with, yeah, I wanted to leave that job, but now I'm staying. Or I never thought that was possible, and I never thought I could lead that.

And I saw that scale. I saw people getting excited. I saw top management asking more about it. I saw them wanting to understand it. I saw it as being able to open doors at levels where I didn't think we would be able to. And I just think that just makes it a more attractive place to work. And you can see people honing in on that.

You suddenly find out or people contact you, "I hear you're doing this, I've seen you're doing this, I've seen the community does this." And you're thinking, wow, okay, I don't really know who you are. Which is brilliant because that's what we're aiming at is to federate and make powerful communities.

So I saw a lot of communities being built. I also saw lots of room to maneuver, to bring in new ideas, whether that be in the leadership space or in the cultural space. An open box for experimentation, if you like. I think the hardest part about experimentation is when you go from proof of concept to industrialized idea, because then it becomes part of the organization. That's almost a different discussion.

So I saw the difference in that. I saw the difference in the way I lead, and I saw the difference in the way the teams were feeling and innovating and defending the project or taking the project forward.

When I was in the operational area, we did a lot of change based on lean on the operations. And I remember, after 18 months, we did a retrospective on what's changed. And the biggest change they'd seen was engagement and happiness at the workplace. At the time we didn't have metrics, we had mood boards and things like that where we didn't have sort of people analytics, but it was incredibly satisfying that that was a collective observation, was that even though this didn't work in that didn't work, we actually wants to come to work everyday. Which I just think is just so satisfying.

And it was interesting. I had somebody contact me a couple of months ago who worked for me 10 years ago. And just saying, "I still remember that day when the team did that, and I'm now doing it with my team. And it still really works." So that for me is the type of legacy that I want to leave, and I want us to leave as a collective. Because I think, you know, particularly platforms like Passionistas and things like that, they are so inspiring and you can unlock so much potential without even knowing it.

That's why I'm a big believer in collective intelligence. And I think, these words have become buzzwords now, haven't they? Like collective intelligence and lean and culture change and employee experience. But experience is so important because it's the human experience. And I think we need to de-mystify it, and we need to operationalize it.

And that's partly what my podcast is about. My podcast is around breaking things down into actionable chunks of learning so that people can go and do something with it and try out what works for them, and basically build the confidence to actually challenge the status quo in the organization. And I think emotional intelligence is becoming more and more and more key in the way we work. And I feel that women don't voice that enough, that they innately bring something to that table.

I also like to work with groups of women to just turn the volume up on that voice. I think every time I've done that, we're all in agreement. It's just not formalized. The volume isn't loud enough on what women can bring to the table.

And it has been ever thus for me. But it's getting stronger and it's getting louder. And this was a conversation I had with my mum. When I was 10 or 11. And we've been discussing it ever since. So yeah. I just think I can add something to that debate. I can make a difference and however, small, it may be in society, if I can make it bigger within what I'm doing, then I'm hoping it will just add into the mix.

That's why I don't think it's impossible is the statement I would accept. Ever.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Suzie Lewis. To learn more about her mission to help organizations and leaders understand human systems so that they can create sustainable change and bring about cultural transformation, visit transformforvalue.com.

If you're enjoying this interview and would like to help us continue creating inspiring content, please consider becoming a patron by visiting thepassionistasproject.com/podcast and clicking on the patron button. Even $1 a month can help us continue our mission of inspiring women to follow their passions. Now here's more of our interview with Suzie.

So with Transform for Value, what types of clients do you work with and why are they seeking you out?

Suzie: So I worked with large organizations. I also work with governmental institutions. I work with charities and I work with startups. Which is great because I wanted a massive mix of clients.

They seek me out because they've understood that something needs to change in their organizational culture. It's either through additional transformation lense. So we need to be more agile. Our process needs to be more agile. We need to understand innovation creativity more.

Or it's from a leadership perspective. We know that we need to change our leadership models because this one is no longer working. So can you help us 1) understand what that means and 2) co-create it so that we can create sustainable change.

Or they come to me more specifically for coaching. So how can I either show up as a leader differently?

Or I do quite a lot of systemic coaching in groups around what I call human system practitionering. So, you know, how do I create that environment and how can I make it sustainable in terms of behavioral change in my team or in my organization.

Passionistas: Is there one success story from your work in this field that really kind of stands out to you as one you're particularly moved by or proud of?

Suzie: So, yes is the answer to that. I think there's one success story from inside the organization. Which is the one I spoke about when we decided that we would federate all the women's networks, which brought it to 900 people, and then we decided to make it inclusive. And then we decided we call it Balance for Business to link it to the business, the bottom line.

And that went from 900 people to 12,000 in five or six years. And it took on a whole different perception in the organization, but also a whole different impact in terms of what subjects they were dealing with and how they could create a feeling of belonging across sites and countries. So that was a vision for me.

And I saw it unfold, which was fab. That was great. And the leadership university was also part of that for me. It was sort of contributing and creating a platform underneath to make it more systemic.

And very recently I've been doing some consulting on an inclusion strategy and we've done co-creation from a to zed. And we've gone from discussing strategy and looking at visioning to training all managers in self limiting beliefs, basic coaching skills and psychological safety. And we've just done the whole spectrum. And it's something I've always wanted to put in place outside of the organization where I've worked.

And they gave me that opportunity. And it's a fab project. And every time I think about it, fondly, I just think. Wow. How many lives are still being impacted by the fact that we're equipping people for different conversations. We're equipping them to thrive, you know, as opposed to survive. And so many people do just survive in organizations.

I'm proud of that because it was the right thing to do. And I'm proud of that because I've got the feedback on the impact it's having. And I'm proud of that because it's creating a different culture, or building on a culture that wasn't quite as explicit as that, on those things in that organization.

And I'm interested in a year from now to go back to it and see where they're at.

Passionistas: So what are some of the biggest challenges for leaders in the 21st century workplace?

Suzie: So my short answer to that would be themselves. Leadership comes from within, doesn't it? And I think particularly now, leaders are having to really understand what they're about in order to be able to deal with the circumstances and lead the uncertainty that's around them. And going inside is quite a difficult conversation with oneself, isn't it? And it's not necessarily something that everybody is used to.

So I think there's that for individual leaders. I think then the codes of leadership in an organization are changing very quickly. Where the paradigm is, it shifts. So, you know, the whole "I'll give you the information you need and information is power" type of paradigm has gone with social media and collaborative platforms. And they're now having to move from a sort of managerial, "I'll tell you what to do to" to more of a coaching stance of, "Either let me empower you to take decisions in a more decentralized way, because that's the way we're going to organize our organization," or "I am here to develop you based on your competencies and your potential." And that often means developing you out of my team, but that's okay.

So we're moving away from paradigm of talent is mine because it's in my team. Which I think is fabulous because that's what we need to do. But I think it's a quite hard conversation to break those paradigms also on a strong is a leader that doesn't show vulnerability and that knows everything. So I'm being very black and white now, but these are the polarities we're working within. And I think it is hard to turn around and say, "I don't know. What do you think?" Or "I'm not quite sure how to navigate this."

I think it's the unwritten codes of organizational cultures around their definition of strong leadership, their attitude to failure and risk, and also their attitude to this discussion around the emotional layer.

So challenge doesn't have to be aggressive. It can be healthy and inverted comments. And I just think we're moving from compare and compete to care and collaborate and that care and collaborate means that you have to have an understanding of yourself, and empathy with the understanding of others, and creating an environment where people feel safe enough in their interpersonal relationships to bring things to the table.

So I think from a leadership perspective, that's a shift everybody is working on and undergoing, but it's not the way cultures are. So I feel like it's not the way we do things around here. So they're constantly hitting the cultural codes and that's quite a tiring place if you're one of the only ones doing it.

So I think it's a wider discussion for particularly top leadership, because what do people do when they want to know what's going to be rewarded and how things work? They look at the top. I think it's a big piece for top leadership, and that's why we need more women in the higher levels of management, as well as the board level, because they bring that discussion. They open that dialogue because they have very different ways of leading. And not just women, but people with more female leadership traits or with a more developed emotional intelligence.

And I just think we're back on the inhibitors of learning, aren't we? Ego and fear. And everyone always says to me, there's a lot of fear in organizations. And there is, but there is a lot of courage as well. There's a lot of curiosity and there's a lot of excitement. But you have to go and find it. And I think that's the most exciting thing is going and finding it, in an organization or anywhere else.

But I think the leadership challenge is that they have to deliver in a world that is uncertain, but they're not like comfortable in, and they're not quite sure how to go about it. It's a big shift, I think. The circular models and the sort of what data brings with it in terms of decision-making is a big conversation, both for systems and organizations. But also as individual leaders, I get a lot of individual leaders asking me the question, you know, I'm not quite sure what to do with the fact that that I don't know.

So that's new conversations for quite a lot of people.

Passionistas: And do you find that more and more companies or individuals are seeking to make these changes?

Suzie: So, yes, it's the answer to that, but I think there are two categories. The companies that are seeking because they actively and deliberately want to create developmental organizations because that's what they believe in and that's what they want to do. And other companies, because they've been told that that's what they need to do to remain competitive. Either way they need to do it. It's a very different discussion.

Passionistas: So how can people work with you at Transform for Value? How do they find you and what can they expect when they work with you?

Suzie: They can find me on LinkedIn. They can find me through my website, transformforvalue.com. They can find me on Twitter.

They can expect to first discussion because my approach to transformation is holistic. It has to have that systemic view to it, even if it's just an inverted commerce, a two-day workshop, the discussion will always start with what's the strategy, what are the objectives and where does it fit in?

And I do that on purpose because I'm a big believer in systems thinking. It comes with the sort of collective intelligence thing. And I do think that particularly in today's world, systems thinking and sense making is key for leadership to come back to your earlier question. So I will always have that discussion.

And they'll also get honesty. If I don't think I can help them, I'm going to tell them because you know, I do what I do to make a difference. If I don't think I can make a difference, then I will tell them, I don't think I'm the one for them, but I will refer them to people I know. But that's important for me.

So it's about a holistic discussion. It's about a fit between me and them. If I can't help them, I'll tell them. And I will always be honest about what I think they need, even if it's not what they came to me for. So I think that's important for me that we work within those boundaries. And then hopefully they'll have fun when we do stuff together.

Passionistas: Shifting gears a little bit. Tell us about the cello and when you first started to play and why you fell in love with it and why you're in the orchestra?

Suzie: Yeah, the cello. I think I was 10. And they came around the schools with all these instruments and they said it was in discovery day. And I heard the person play the cello. And I heard the sound of the cello and I was just like, I want to play that. I want to do that. I was a little bit bewitched by the sound of it. And I thought, wow, I didn't realize how difficult it would be to recreate that sound. But I just fell in love with it. And I thought, this is for me, I really love this instrument.

So I asked my parents if I could play. And they said, yeah, we'll hire one thought. And I said okay. And my granddad was a pianist. So we had music in the household and all my sisters played instruments as well. And it was hard. I found it quite hard to learn to play, and it was quite a lot of discipline. And I was like, do I really want to do this? And then I started thinking, okay, well, I'll join an orchestra because that will be really cool to play with other people.

So I joined an orchestra when I was about 12, a youth orchestra. And I just, that was it then. Because I think I'd taken the pressure off myself to perform and to get it right. And it was just like, wow, I'm part of something bigger. And I think being part of something bigger than yourself is for me very inspiring, hence what I do and all the communities that we create.

So that's what I did. And I just learned so much about people and I had so much fun just being part of a bigger collective and playing and watching myself progress. And then I was quite willing to do my scales and do the practice. And we went on tour with the orchestras and my sister was in the same orchestra and yeah, it was a big collective thing.

And then, when I was 16, I bought my own cello. Which was like this big thing because I was like, I bought my own cello. And I bought it in a sort of market where we were that was selling all the instruments. And a guy I knew helped me tune it and put it together. And I was just like, wow, I've bought an instrument.

So that was a big thing for me. And then it's just stayed with me ever since. And when I went to university, I found an orchestra and when I came to Toulouse, I found an orchestra and I still play in that orchestra. And I've always played that. And I love, I just love cello music. I think it just communicates an emotional sort of bewitchment that I don't feel when I play. I really like playing it and it sort of takes me elsewhere. It's a little bit like mindfulness for me. I just sort of step out of what I'm doing during the day.

And then when my grandma passed away, I bought a more expensive with the inheritance. So that was symbolic for me because she accompanied me in my cello exam. She came to play the piano with me and we did them together. So that was very cool. And yeah, that's just my instrument. I just feel something passionate when I hear the cello.

Passionistas: So we also love the sister connection. Obviously we're sisters and we have two other sisters and we are also each other's best friends. What do your sisters do? And how often do you get to see them since you all live in different countries?

Suzie: Let's take COVID out with this. Before that we saw each other about four or five times a year. But we would always take the time to have one weekend for just the four of us, dedicated to us. To just having fun and being together and that sistership thing. So that's how much we see each other.

One is a lawyer, one is a translator and one is a communications director. And we're just sort of all over the world. But we're always connected. You know, oh, I must ring her. And it just so happens that she's okay or she's not okay. But they're my go to place for constructive and sisterly feedback that will help move me on whether it's what I want to hear or not.

They're sort of my muses, if you like. It's funny because you know, when we all started sort of moving away and getting other groups of friends, I never once asked myself, "I wonder if that space will remain." You know, it just wasn't. And we've had this discussion between all four of us and it wasn't on anybody's radar.

It was just like, oh, how are we going to make space for that? Not will it change. So I feel very, very, very privileged all the time, but just so grateful for that because it's a no matter what unconditional safe space. And that's what really inspires me as well to create that for other people, because it's so powerful.

Passionistas: People don't understand if they haven't experienced it, but to know from birth that you've got people that have your back, no matter what, is really the greatest gift anybody could receive.

Suzie: Yeah. It's a fab feeling. It's a get up and feel good feeling. And I just think you can recreate that in teams. You can recreate that in organizational culture. And it's such a shame not to, because it's so inspiring for everybody. And they don't have to be inspired by the same thing or motivated by the same thing, but they all want to work together. And clearly if you're in an organization you will have a collective purpose or vision depending on what the organization does.

And I just think it's one of those things. I spend a lot of time doing pro bono stuff on this topic, just because it's so important. I mentor everyone, but predominantly women on building their own business. We go into colleges before they've made their choices. And it's not just about getting women into areas where they aren't.

It's also about believing yourself. Build your confidence. Don't let anyone tell you it's impossible. Surround yourself with people who can help you or who can have that space with you, because I don't think I would be the same person I am today. If I hadn't of had that space.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Suzie Lewis. To learn more about her mission to help organizations and leaders understand human systems so that they can create sustainable change and bring about cultural transformation, visit transformforvalue.com.

Please visit thepassionistasproject.com to learn more about our podcast and our subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans, to inspire you to follow your passions. Get one for your Valentine and save 15% on your purchase with the code BEMINE2022. And be sure to subscribe to The Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming, inspiring guests. Until next time, stay well and stay passionate.