Amy Williams: Bridging Education and Career through Dual Enrollment

Work Forces

Amy Williams, Executive Director of the National Alliance of Concurrent Enrollment Partnerships (NACEP), joins us to discuss the transformative power of dual enrollment in bridging the gap between secondary and postsecondary education and industry needs. With over two decades of experience across various educational sectors, Amy shares her insights on creating sustainable educational systems that are mutually beneficial for high schools, colleges, and industries. This episode delves into the complexities and innovative strategies of dual enrollment, offering a comprehensive view of how these programs are tailored to meet the diverse needs of students and society. Whether you're an educator, industry professional, or policy maker, join us to explore how dual enrollment serves as a crucial tool for developing a skilled future workforce.

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Transcript

Julian Alssid: Welcome to Workforces. I'm Julian Alssid.

Kaitlin LeMoine: And I'm Kaitlin LeMoine, and we speak with the innovators who shape the future of work and learning.

Julian: Together, we unpack the complex elements of workforce and career preparation and offer practical solutions that can be scaled and sustained.

Kaitlin: Work Forces is supported by Lumina Foundation. Lumina is an independent private foundation in Indianapolis that is committed to making opportunities for learning beyond high school available to all. Let's dive in.

Kaitlin: On today's episode, we're sitting down with Amy Williams, Executive Director of the National Alliance of Concurrent Enrollment Partnerships, or NACEP. In her role at NACEP, Amy drives the national conversation about dual enrollment program access, impact, and quality. Drawing upon two decades of experience in secondary, post-secondary, and STEM education, she leverages established structures and fosters real partnerships to build sustainable systems that serve the mutual needs of high schools, colleges, and industry stakeholders to benefit students and society as a whole. Her comprehensive knowledge stems from hands-on experience at every level from the classroom to the campus, the research lab to the manufacturing floor, and the system office to the state house. Amy's work to unite disparate systems for mutual benefit has made her a champion for career pathways and a national expert on dual enrollment. Amy's role with NACEP provides her with a bird's eye view of the ever evolving national landscape of dual enrollment, and we are thrilled to have the opportunity to speak with her today. Welcome to the Work Forces podcast, Amy.

Amy Williams: Thank you, I'm excited to be here.

Julian: Welcome, Amy, it's great to have you.

Amy: Thank you.

Julian: To get us going here, tell us about your background and how you approach your work.

Amy: As I look back and reflect, some of the key elements that have surfaced throughout my career actually started kinda back when I was in high school. Long story short, I had a ninth grade guidance counselor in my high school. We had our usual freshman year meeting that kinda outlines, you know, the courses you're gonna take and how they're gonna support you. And the counselor looked at me and he said, so what do you think you wanna eventually do with your life? What do you wanna be when you grow up? And I said to him, I'm like, I kind of have enjoyed teaching so I think I might wanna be a teacher. And I swear, he said straight to my face, he said, your handwriting is too terrible and you're not very well organized. So what else do you wanna do? And I said, well, I really love science and I've been enjoying science classes. And so maybe scientists and he's like well your math score is terrible. So what else do you want to do? I don't know if it's a testament to so I took a couple different things away from that one That fired me up as opposed to shutting me down. But that doesn't happen for every student I've spent a lot of time in the classroom and I know that you have to moderate your message to try and look at what you're trying to accomplish for students and messages like that we all know across the board are not helpful in my case fortunately, it kind of kicked off a bit of tenacity where I basically said, okay then watch me. And so that led to some intrinsic motivation to really get my act together and start targeting, you know, academic skills, as well as just getting a better lens on what the world of work looks for. So I think, you know, students across the board, we all know they need support, but really they need more than conversations. And you'll see throughout my work history, they need, students need activities, they need exploration. They also need things like validation that they're capable and in different ways. They need to understand more about the careers and what the world of work looks like and how it can be changing, as well as the things that come along when we hit adulthood, like it's really nice to get paid or fairly compensated so that you can make a living. So like that well-rounded kind of look at, you know, at what we're trying to do is really guided a lot of the work that I've done. But specifically, those two professions I picked out, I eventually achieved both of them. So I started out on the science track. I have an undergraduate degree in geology and I have a master's degree in geologic hazard assessment and mitigation with an emphasis on slope stability. So not necessarily the usual background you get in higher ed leadership positions. As I look back, I knew that teaching kind of emerged as a through line in a lot of my work, even when I was doing STEM work. When I finished graduate school, I went out into the field and did field work as a scientist of my type does. But even when I was in an undergrad position and graduate position, teaching kind of emerged and surfaced and in a couple of different ways. I knew that I wanted to get a fellowship to grad school. So I started an undergrad teaching assistant program at my undergrad university that helped give the skills that would demonstrate that I would be a good candidate for a graduate teaching assistantship. Then in grad school, a lot of the grad students, when they came around, they said, okay, who wants to show the students the mineral samples or the moon samples? Not a lot of people's hands went up. I always felt compelled to volunteer for those things with specific purpose. A, we need to ensure that there are gonna be other geologists that take on the problems of the world behind us. So that's an important pay it forward element. B, as a woman in the STEM fields who benefited from some people who trailblazed, but also didn't have a lot of strong women role models, particularly in my undergrad. I had great allies in a lot of our faculty, just not a lot of women role models. I felt really strongly that all students should see someone who looks like them in this work and see how they could be welcomed into this as a practical reality or a career option. So I think that's really important founding in moving things forward. Now, I said I worked on slope stability assessment from the state of Montana. Montana does not or did not at the time have population density in areas that were dangerous. So when I returned back home, you know, finding a job in the area that I had specialized was a little dicey. I did happen to on, you know, chance find an ad in the newspaper for a science teacher at a small private school. It had all of the, I had all of the requirements and I kind of liked teaching a little bit and had done a bit. So I threw an application in. I got the position. I taught for a year, struggled for a year, but finally, at the end of it, really was hooked. Education was where it was at for me. So I taught in a classroom, high school, middle school classroom, STEM topics for a decade, actually more than a decade. They had a vacancy where the headmaster had to leave on short notice. I had to step into administration and I discovered that actually I really enjoyed that element and kind of building systems that work and are sustainable. So you'll see that as a through line as well. And that drove me over to higher ed to jump into a career pathways program with a special emphasis on dual enrollment, which was something they wanted to grow and expand. So I built a program in a small two year college, took that program and really expanded it in terms of number of students participating, number of high schools that were engaged in it, and really tried to put a lot of thought into what we were trying to do with students. So there's another through line as well. And so through that, my work got noticed at the, you know, kind of in the system office realm, as well as in the governor's office, because our governor at the time really had a priority for leveling the playing field for students and saw that dual enrollment was a really impactful tool for that along with others. So I got tapped to basically do what I'd done at a small two-year program and take that approach across the state and did a lot of work to increase access, particularly in our rural schools. Did a lot of work to build up teachers so that they had the requirements needed to take on teaching these programs in the high school, which works really well if you're in the middle of nowhere, which Montana's got a lot of. So those kind of pieces, building access, working on affordability, and then messaging and how this fits into a student's career plan. So in that position with the state, I was the state director of career and technical education and dual enrollment. We put those together to give students kind of this exposure to what was trending in the state and what was evolving in the workforce in the state so they were more knowledgeable. We built in activities like work-based learning, dual enrollment anytime we could, as well as things like you know certifications when they were of value. So really I overhauled the system and tried to join a lot of different pieces together to make a more useful functional program that benefited all of the different stakeholders that were kind of counting on it to deliver for them. After that kind of work was underway and I had worked on my one goal, which was one of the goals which was affordability, we got a one-two free program established right before I left the state of Montana and that gave students the first two courses free. At that point in time I happened to see an opportunity open up at NACEP, which was an organization I had already volunteered for a lot working on state policy because I had some experience there. I threw my hat in the ring, I got the position and then kind of just springboarded to the national landscape where I'd been dabbling particularly in the policy space for a while. And so that's kind of how I got to my chair now and a lot of what I brought forward into that headspace.

Kaitlin: Wow. Well, that is, it's a really fascinating trajectory just to hear your path to this current role. And we really appreciate you providing that context for our listeners. So Amy, this is a big topic today. Can you talk a little bit about what is dual enrollment and concurrent enrollment? How do enrollment, how do we define it?

Amy: So dual and concurrent enrollment, depending on where you are, are terms that either describe very different things or the same things. So terminology is something that plagues our field. But I'll give you the basic breakdown. We're talking about programs. And when I use the word dual enrollment, I use it more as an umbrella term to describe any type of program that college course while they're still in high school, that kind of early access piece. Now there are a lot of different modalities, different ways or structures in which these programs occur. There are structures that are on the college campus where students leave during the school day and come on to the college campus, drop in and fill a seat in a regular section of course of a course. That's one model. Of course, there's online which are courses offered by the college campus. Students can take those in whatever mode that the course is offered from the college. And then there is the most prevalent mode. And that, depending on where you are, NACEP considers and defines that concurrent enrollment. And that is called a high school-based model. In concurrent enrollment and a high school-based model, a high school instructor who meets the minimum adjunct criteria for the college and is working in coordination in the partnership with the college delivers a college course in the high school classroom as part of the regular school day. So those are kind of the three modes either the students taking it online or on campus, in the high school with a high school teacher, or on campus. Now there is an interesting nuance again these things are very complex well not complicated they're very creative in the way they take on some challenges. There are some programs that are based in the high school during the normal high school day that have faculty that come in from the campus and deliver it. You know, those high school based models are the most popular. They're about 86% when we look nationally at the types of programs that students are participating in. 80% are in their home high school and about another 6% are in like a career center or a high school other than theirs. It's also the most complicated model when you try and talk about merging systems and ensuring rigor and integrity and an authentic college experience because you're not just trying to build, you know, in most cases, you're not just trying to build one college course or a couple into a high school. You're basically trying to stand up parts, significant parts of a college within a high school setting. And that includes everything from, you know, how are students being advised? How are we ensuring that they're meeting prereqs or any, you know, gateway scores that need, that are needed for entering a course? So everything from that to how are the teacher and the college faculty working together? Are there observations of the high school faculty with a college faculty? Are there high school teachers that go onto college campus to observe the faculty deliver the same course on the college campus? So there are a variety of different ways to do that, but fundamentally it's not just kind of dropping a course or two in, it is building a true partnership that is mutually beneficial that takes information and navigates it back and forth, all focused on getting the students what they need, when they need, and in the format that works for them.

Kaitlin: So one thing that stuck out to me, Amy, that you shared with us previously is that NACEP is the first and only national organization focused on supporting programs, practitioners, and policies to advance early access to quality college courses for high school students. With that in mind, can you talk about the role that NACEP plays in weaving together secondary and post-secondary learning experiences and opportunities, just because it seems like oftentimes they're siloed, right? And so what does it look like to weave those worlds together?

Amy: Yeah. I mean, you know, specifically in the dual enrollment landscape, really, you are talking about merging, you know, secondary and post-secondary. That's a complex process. You have to not just merge them, but you have to meet the requirements of both, which is something that constantly we have to attend to and runs into some pretty sticky areas from time to time. So it's useful to have a resource to tap in for that. And that's an important role that we play in the field. When we were thinking about what we're doing to weave these things together in just the secondary and the post-secondary space, based on the utility that these programs can have to allow students to start to explore as well as engage in college and career before they even leave high school. That's an additional partner that needs to be at the table. And their needs need to be understood, their constraints, and the kind of the conditions they're working under. So when we're talking about the workforce end, we're talking about really truly uniting three different systems that have highly variable elements. And that's complicated work, which is fine with me. I don't mind the complexity. And I really get excited about kind of the gray area spaces, as well as finding ways to mutually benefit. So, one thing that you have to kind of know about weaving together these things on a national level is that it's complicated. I mean, in one word, if that had if I had to describe what it looks like to do this work, I would say complex. And that's fun, because I dig that space. But you know, like, here's why. And this is why it's important. And there are a few important things that you need to understand about these programs. One. there is no national entity that owns these programs if we use the word ownership. We exist to support the field as an organization. We advocate for their needs. We are laser focused on elevating the importance of these programs and building towards the expertise of the people boots on the ground doing this work. And we want to make sure that their expertise covers best practices in building and managing these programs. So we build work to build national alignment around things like best practices. We work to build a community to share about those things and elevate, you know, issues in that area. And really fundamentally we're trying to come in and add a common layer of common understanding, common practice, and kind of as a proxy of aligning these programs, despite no shared on or national ownership in our way. So these programs, another thing you need to know about them is they are highly variable and there's an important reason for that. You know, they vary from state to state, sometimes school district to school district. They vary in terminology, what they're called. They vary in funding, in availability, in the eligibility criteria for students that get to participate. They vary in their structure, the ownership, how many credits students get to take, which types of courses are open to them, when in their high school career these programs are open to them, and kind of the ultimate objectives. And there's probably more that I'm not even thinking about. And there's a good reason for that kind of high variability. When you look at the history of these programs, which have been around, by the way, since like the 1950s, they really developed at the grassroots level. And they did that fundamentally in isolation from one another. In fact, that's more or less, I would say, the origin story of NAISP as an organization. Several practitioners several years ago, like 20, 25 years ago, found each other on the perimeter of other education conferences and started talking shop as practitioners tend to do, right? They started comparing notes. How do you do this? How do you do that? What are you doing for student advising? What does this look like in this type of space? And so as they started to compare notes, they started to outline a framework for what program quality looks like when you join high school and college together. There are two, I think, points for this. There's the quality control element as well as the guidance standpoint. We don't need people to feel like they have to reinvent the wheel. And then of course, we're trying to align nationally around common language and common practice. So these people started holding professional development events that really focused only on this work. So they weren't a peripheral element, but had their own place to discuss and working to kind of recognize this really unique realm of education and advocate for more investment, more access, and more research as well. So, you know, the programs, I would say those are kind of two key elements. There's no national entity that owns this. The programs are highly variable. And so when you think about those things and the way that these programs work and what they're trying to do, all of that can be really variable. And that means that these programs really are highly contextualized to the environment in which they are born and built. And because of that, when we talk about the workforce side, that actually creates a lot of useful opportunities. But because of the variation in the complexity in the space, the students' experiences with these programs will vary. You might have a student coming out of an early college high school program that was on a college campus. So their entire last two years of their high school, they were on a college campus taking courses, they're graduating with an associate's or some sort of certificate. You may have a student that took one or maybe two courses in their high school setting. You may have a student that participated in a P-TECH and had all of the kind of degree pieces plus an internship on top of it. So student experiences vary and it may be anything in between those kind of ends of the spectrum. And the last thing I'll say that's important to know about our field is that by and large state policy is an important factor that kind of can wag the tail of the dog. Early in the history of these programs, like we know K-12 and higher ed both have well-established statute. They have well-established structures for accreditation and oversight at the state, local, and federal levels. But this in-between space we work has to merge those policies and meet both of them. And for a long time, NACEP really filled that space with a lot of our national quality standards and guidance. But we have seen states and worked with states to kind of fill that gap through policy. And when that has happened in states where that's happened, in states where that’s happened, policy is an important factor that drives what programs look like, feel like, and what the student experience looks like boots on the ground. So it's complicated.

Julian: Wow, yes, it sure is. So given that complexity, what are the sort of cross-cutting elements or themes that NACEP focuses on?

Amy: We have a conversation about this every day. How do we make resources that are useful for anyone out there doing this work knowing the variability? I think there are some clear through lines. So one of the things that I talk about with these programs is because they look different, function different, have different purposes, and are configured differently, which is aligned generally to their context and the needs of the people that build them, I actually kind of like to use the analogy of a car, right? Like we know that there are cars, and cars have a lot of different variable components, right? There are different types of cars, there are different manufacturers, there are different trim packages and things like that. That said, when you're playing like Pictionary, you're still gonna draw a car, right? Like there are fundamental elements that you will draw. There will probably be wheels, right? There will probably be a place for people in that. So really we try and tease out those fundamental elements. What is unique and what is standardized? And when you look at those standardized elements, a lot of times they are the functional elements. You know you have to enroll students. You know you have to set some guidelines and parameters on what the curriculum looks like, what the assessment looks like in that course, essentially you are taking a college course into the high school classroom and you want to build a structure to make sure that those students actually have an authentic college experience, they have the rigor and academic knowledge that's needed and meet the learning outcomes and goals related to that. So really our space is focusing on those shared common elements which are pretty easy to tease out particularly at the program level. And really that's where our quality standards live and breathe is because they can be those anchor pieces of what you're going to have to do when you build a program and how you're going to need to work with students. We just add that best practices lens on. When it comes to state policy, because state policy is important and highly variable, we kind of look for the same kind of trends. Most often states will develop policy in this space of a different nature. Very frequently around funding or who can participate or what the criteria to participate. Like, do you have to have a certain GPA? Do you have to be at a certain level in your classes? Or I mean, in your school career, things like that. So we do try and build the alignment around the common pieces. And we also try to elevate and recognize unique and creative approaches that are functional while also elevating kind of where in the context of that program that developed and why they're using that model. So hopefully that kind of gives you some of the key pieces.

Julian: What’s the focus of these programs, sort of how do they break out between career tech ed and more general education?

Amy: So when we look at like the data nationally, we find about 70% of these courses that are offered are more in like the gen ed space, gen ed core kind of courses that math, you know, entry-level math, entry-level writing, humanities, things like that. And then we see about 30% as career oriented and sometimes those lines cross as well in some ways shapes or forms. And when you look at those career-oriented elements and what they look like in a high school setting in terms of course content, it might be like adding medical terminology to a Project Lead the Way activity so that students can continue to progress but also get the opportunity to take that kind of college content that helps layer on and support their exploration of the medical field as well as, you know, validate the fact that they can handle college level coursework. It might be doing things like, you know, a welding, taking the welding course and creating a new advanced welding section that's for college credit and allow students to do the welding fabrication. So every high school has a career pathways program. Not every person in a community knows what's offered in there. But career pathways are an outstanding avenue to insert dual enrollment because they are built on multi-dimensional experiences that enrich students, as well as multiple coursework steps that increase their knowledge along the way. And then the ultimate kind of end point of that is really elevating, okay, well, you've taken all these high school courses, let's move you into the next level and do the college one. And so dual enrollment has a very cool practical purpose in that career pathway space, as well as the gen ed spaces. And I think as we look at students and kind of what their appetites and interests are and how those evolve over time, particularly when we hear interesting things in the media about best met and belief in value of higher ed, it behooves students to look at multiple different options and opportunities that are of interest to them and could ultimately result in a good job with family sustaining wages and potential career growth. And we know when we work with higher ed, the types of programs that offer that are really wide and varied. They can be one year certificates that really do a lot for a student and get them inserted in the workforce and kind of business and industry takes over training their own from there on out. Two-year kind of lives in the same space, but also can live in the cool space of packaging onto a part of a bachelor's degree and moving students forward. And we do actually see those in both the more career-oriented spaces as well as the gen eds. And so I think that's an important component to take in mind. Because community colleges do the bulk of this work, they are really ideally very tuned to the local workforce needs and so should their degree programs. So that creates that further opportunity to take that local workforce need and knowledge and what's evolving in it, bring it into the high school classroom, unpack it very thoughtfully with things like a tour to the manufacturing facility or bringing in guest speakers or adding college credits so students can ultimately start on that first path down the road to what's next for them after high school.

Julian: Given the many lessons you've learned through this work over the years, what are practical steps that our audience can take to become forces in advancing college and career prospects for high school students?

Amy: I think my best advice is it falls into two categories. Learn as much as you can and start locally. I think those are really interwoven. I think it's really important whether you're coming from the business and industry side or an institution of higher ed or high school, identify what you want to do and why you are doing it. And there is an important reason for that because of the complexity. Sometimes I will call these programs like a Swiss army knife. Like you can do a lot of different things and they look very different in different states, but it's fundamentally still identifiable. It's a Swiss army knife. It's just a difference of whether it has the scissors and the nail file or just the knife. So, I say that from the standpoint of figure out what you want to do and why, because you can probably work through and build what you need if you're kind of bringing to the table the right resources, bringing to the table the right people, and you're really thoughtful about how you approach this. So I would say build your expertise on what these programs are. We have a lot of resources for you that are helpful for that. You can find them on our resource center. And think through what you would want to do with this, as well as what you can contribute and a timeline. So, you know, then I would look around and find out who else wants to do things like this. I think I, in one of our earlier conversations, I shared a very pragmatic approach that I took to this. I didn't have a line item funding when I was put at the state for this, so I had to get creative. I looked at whoever else in my field was working on something or trying to meet the same objective, which fundamentally was getting high school students more informed about their post-secondary, they're after high school options, right? Found a couple nonprofits that were super invested in getting students interested in college. Worked with them to build like an event and a convening. And now they have taken over some of those things and they run a teacher externship program in the summer, which is something that the state no longer has funds to do. So I think finding other people to help you navigate the space is really important, but that's based on really understanding what these programs are and how you think you might be able to use it. Um, I would say related to that and really important to my first kind of experience with these programs and building them is understanding what the requirements and constraints that each stakeholder is working with. Uh, one of the things that I learned the most in my first year was when high schools roll schedules and when they can add new courses to what they offer in the high school because those timing pieces are critical for when you approach and say, hey, we think you need a health sciences course that might augment your career pathway. Would you like to talk about that and we can walk you through it. If I come to them at a time when they've already set their schedules, contracted for their teachers and listed out who's going to what class in the fall, It's not that helpful time for the conversation. Also in working with some of the business and industry partners, increasing your knowledge and focusing on what you can contribute, but also the constraints of others, is really important for avoiding those foot and mouth moments, right? Where you say something and you're like, well, we could never do that. And then someone says, actually I saw this and they did do that. So I would say, build those connections in a little bit of empathy and start looking for the common wins because that's in my experience where people wanna play is in a mutually beneficial thing. Some things to keep in mind are that, you know, every high school in the United States has a Career Pathways program. It's funded by the federal government. Nearly every student is in some sort of high school setting. So that creates a really cool opportunity where you know where the students will be, when they will be there, and really the details of how you work with them are there to be worked out. That all relies on understanding each other's needs. Deadlines. Things like that. There are some times colleges can't move dates. That's just the way it is. There are times high schools can't work with changes. That's the way it is. There are times business and industry and places in business and industry students cannot be on the floor or can only be there under certain circumstances. So identifying what those barriers are can kind of keep you from running into them after the work has progressed really far. And also being a good partner is incorporating kind of those pieces of what everyone's trying to deal with and get to.

Kaitlin: Well, Amy, we appreciate both the high level perspective of this work and the deep dive into really practically speaking what it looks like to do this work on the ground and some of the primary considerations that practitioners should consider, kind of regardless of their vantage point in this space. As we wind down our conversation today, how can our listeners learn more and continue to follow your work?

Amy: I am not a huge proponent of social media, but I am on LinkedIn. So if you ever want to see what I'm thinking or my opinion or NACEP's opinion, you can find me on LinkedIn. It is where I do tend to, to drop my more challenging thoughts or things to challenge the field outside of our events, of course, and resources. So, and I've already mentioned that NACEP's website is kind of a treasure trove of all things, dual enrollment, dual credit, concurrent enrollment, early college running start, jumpstart, whatever these programs are called in your space and whatever term makes sense. So I think those are two really good places to start. And then I would always say that you can always reach out to us for assistance. We understand this work is complex. And I'm not trying to freak people out and say, it's so complicated, don't go there. What I'm trying to say is that there are options. There is lots of gray space to work in. You might want to, you know, bring a friend with you to navigate those space, or bring a map or a guidebook, and we offer those elements too. But we're always there to be that helpful resource along the way.

Kaitlin: Great, well thank you so much, Amy, for your time today. We really appreciate it. Can't wait to get this episode out to our listeners.

Amy: Thank you. I hope it's helpful and useful for everyone.

Julian: Definitely helpful and useful. Thank you so much, Amy.

Kaitlin: That's all we have for you today. Thank you for listening to Work Forces. We hope that you take away nuggets that you can use in your own work. Thank you to our sponsor, Lumina Foundation. We're also grateful to our wonderful producer, Dustin Ramsdell. You can listen to future episodes at workforces.info or on Apple, Amazon, and Spotify. Please subscribe, like, and share the podcast with your colleagues and friends.