Episode 2 with Alex Urevick-Ackelsberg, CEO of Zivtech

ADD Hero

Hey everybody, welcome to episode number two of The A.D.D. Entrepreneur.

Today I am thrilled to be joined by Alex Urevick-Ackelsberg, the Founder of Zivtech, a Philly-based digital strategy company specializing in application and product development, who also obviously happens to have ADD.

Thanks for hopping on here, Alex.

Alex: Absolutely, happy to join.

Nick: That said, again, I wanna make sure…I don’t know if you wanna add anything on to what it is you do because what we were just talking about, I feel like I definitely did not even scratch the surface on all of the cool stuff that you guys were doing at this point.

Alex: No, it’s cool, yeah.

Zivtech is a nine-year-old web development, design, training, strategy company focused on products and web applications for everything from startups to Fortune, whatever, 50 companies, and we work with all sorts of open source tools as well as software as a service, and occasionally even proprietary software to help our customers innovate in a digital sort of space.

Nick: Thank you for that, that’s obviously way more holistic way, I would say, to deliver. Yeah man, just thank you so much for coming on here. I truly appreciate you guys…it’s amazing how busy everybody is, especially founders, and just…I’m very, very honored that people are willing to take their time out, especially, you know, when we’re easily as distracted as we are.

Alex: Yeah, well, I think that that’s also the way that you’re gonna get plenty of distracted people to sign up because they’re like, ooh, that sounds distracting, I like. And it’s definitely interesting from what I’m used to doing at four o’clock on a Monday, so yeah, that sounds great.

Nick: Okay. With that said, I guess we will just dive right in. So the first question I have for you is,

How old were you when you started displaying signs of ADD?

Alex: I think as soon as I started school.

I went to a sort of alternative school here in Philadelphia called Project Learn.

So they didn’t really have report cards, but I did see what they would do, is they would give you sort of feedback, and the feedback I always got from kindergarten on to sixth grade when I stopped going there was always some flavor of, Alex is very enthusiastic, he always seems very excited and eager to talk about what we’re gonna talk about, but he never lets anyone else have a turn and he never waits his turn, and he’s always a little loud and interrupting.

So you know, looking back on it, I don’t think people were diagnosed that early or as often with it back then. But for sure, it’s been a personality trait since day one, and it starts to…started immediately to show itself as soon as I came in contact with the world outside of my parents’ and grandparents’ houses.

Nick: So that perfectly segues into the next question which was,

Who would you say was the person who noticed, if it wasn’t your parents?

Alex: Again, I don’t think like back then in the, I guess, ’70s, ’80s, I guess mostly…no, it would have been the ’80s, I don’t think it was as well…or I don’t think it was diagnosed as often as it is today.

So, you know, I think they just thought I was eager and excited, and I was lucky enough to find myself in a school that really was supportive of people that needed to have a little more, or maybe that had a little more energy and excitement towards what they were doing, and were a little bit more all over the place.

So I think I just ended up in the right situation early on in life so that it didn’t need to be…it wasn’t an issue.

And then later on in life, I think…you know, maybe like high school and on, when it did start to become more of an issue for me, it was also mixed in with like other issues, mainly that I was depressed, and it was also a rough time in the city, so it seems pretty natural to be depressed.

But you know, I don’t think that I was just depressed because of the situation I was in, I think I was just clinically depressed.

So, it sort of mixed in…it sort of meshed in with that.

And so I think looking back at high school, it was definitely sort of the depression that was the focus of my attention, my parents’ attention, and eventually sort of got that behind me later on in life, and then was still left with the ADD, and that’s when it really became apparent, like oh, this is its own thing that I really need to deal with on its own.

Nick: It’s incredible how common ADD and depression actually is.

I’ve been doing more and more reading on it, and the only thing potentially more common than somebody having…especially ADD, and having sort of…dealing with bouts of depression throughout life is that they’re often very hard to diagnose, because sometimes ADD is driving the depression, sometimes the depression is actually driving the attention deficit, and it’s kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy and…

Alex: Yeah, I mean, I think…you know, looking at my life, I think they really were very separate. Although I think depression can make the ADD a lot worse.

But you know, I really…like definitely once depression was gone, the ADD was not gone, and it was still the same old Alex from when I was in kindergarten when I was definitely not depressed in kindergarten.

So I think the depression has come…came later in life, and is more…but I think at the time when I would have dealt with it as…within the school context before I left home, you know, it just got sort of…it was definitely not the problem that I needed to work with or on.

Nick: So you sort of just danced around this, and you sort of answered it.

So just to ask you point blank like

Were you ever professionally tested? Like did you ever get a professional diagnosis?

Alex: Yeah.

So definitely they told my parents.

When I was getting treated for depression, they told my parents, yeah, he probably has ADD too.

And they sort of wanted to treat that with medicine, but my parents were very anti-treatment with medicine, which I think at the…you know, when you develop, when your brain is developing, I think is a really smart thing to do, is to hold off as long as possible.

So I didn’t use any sort of chemicals to treat it, and they weren’t very receptive to dealing with it in that sort of way.

I think they were much more concerned with the depression, which I think rightfully so was more of a weight both on myself and my family.

Nick: I had actually a very similar experience.

I was at a Catholic school, so their reaction to my behavior in first and second grade was more like, your son has a learning disability, you need to get him professional help.

And then when I was diagnosed, they were like, oh, you need Ritalin definitely.

So I throw a bunch of Ritalin at [inaudible 00:07:00] and my parents were pretty opposed to developing a chemical dependency at seven years old or whatever it was.

Alex: Right.

And I have a lot of abuse and addiction problems in my family history, so I think it’s a smart move to try to avoid getting people used to take a pill for it when they’re that age.

Later on in life, I think is great.

But early, or when your brain is developing and you don’t have…and you’re not fully to the point yet where you can make those sorts of decisions rationally and your brain is still sort of in a more developing state, I think it’s just better to hold off if you can.

Nick: So

How would you say having ADD affected your relationships as both I think a child, and then going into your teen years, like coming up through middle school and even high school?

Alex: Well, I don’t know.

I mean, I don’t think it’s hurt my relationships at all. You know, I think having ADD can be…you know, you can be sort of…people like to be around other people that are driving conversations, and that are sort of energetic and will sort of…I guess I gravitate towards people like that.

So, I don’t know. I always had a good amount of friends, and I always had a pretty good social life. I think the depression definitely hurt it at times, but even that sort of…I’m very, very social by nature.

So I don’t think it ever really hurt my relationships, except it made me a real big pain in the ass to my parents to get to do my homework on time. But I don’t think it really affected my relationships that much.

Nick: Okay.

Alex: I mean, my wife gets annoyed constantly with me.

Nick: Same here.

Alex: So you know, I think it affects it…it’s annoying, but I don’t think…she never threatened to break up with me or anything over it, luckily. Not that. Other things maybe…

What would you say was the most identifying characteristic that you saw in yourself?

And has that changed over the past, whatever, 30 years show?

Alex: You know, I think the biggest trait is dramatic ability to procrastinate until everything is…the pressure is mounted enough where I just focus and power through things.

You know, I think obviously…I mean, distraction is in the name, so if there’s a distractive part, I get…I think the part that people don’t realize, that’s really pronounced, that I have a lot of issues with sometimes is, you know, there’s the flip side to ADD which is that you get hyper-focused at times, and sort of get into a tunnel of focus that you can’t really get out of, and so…like my wife will talk to me when I’m really focused on work, or my kids will talk to me, and I’ll just be like, yup, yup, whatever, yup-yup-yup, and I’m not even paying attention even a little bit.

So, you know, I think it can be sort of a weird situation where sometimes I can seem like to…I’m sure to other people like I’m not paying attention at all, and other times it just seems like oh my god, it’s like, you know, I’m just focusing way too intensely on it. So yeah, I think those will be the more pronounced parts of it for me.

Nick: Okay.

Alex: And interrupting.

So I just had to throw that in there right while you were talking, just to give you an example.

Nick: I’m a chronic interrupter, especially if the idea just…it’s in my…my parents were always like, you need to think before you speak.

And I didn’t realize it was much like a characteristic of just sort of the way our brains work as it is apparently.

Do you take any medication to help sort of control or regulate your focus at all at this point?

Alex: Oh yeah, better living through chemistry.

Nick: Got it, okay.

Yeah, it’s amazing how varied the questions that I’m getting on that question…you know, how varied the answers I’m getting on that question are, and how strongly people feel sometimes one way or the other.

Alex: You know, I feel like it’s sometimes like I probably don’t need it, you know, right now, but every time I feel like that and I don’t take it, I’ll be like…at the end of the day I’ll be like, wow, I really got almost nothing done.

I don’t know if that’s just like it makes you more productive in general, which possibly could be, but I don’t see any reason not to use it. So I’d use a couple different things to stabilize it and make me focus harder.

Nick: So moving on to some more of the fun business questions.

Alex: Sure.

What was your first business idea, and what did you do with it?

Alex: Oh god.

Well I mean, when I was really very young, I used to have all sorts of business ideas.

At one point, I saw “60 Minutes” when I was probably like 8 or 9, saw a “60 Minutes” special on dentists, and how much money they were making, and I remember coming up with a whole plan on how I was gonna have a chain of dental operations, and I thought, oh well, maybe I could go do it, I don’t know, around the world, and have like a worldwide dental regime.

I mean, it’s ridiculous when you think about it now as an adult, but that was maybe one of my first stupid ideas.

And I’ve had lots of bad ideas throughout the years.

I think the most legit business idea I had before Zivtech, was an idea to create a venue with the promoter from R5 Productions, Sean Agnew.

We were gonna try to buy the Eighth Street Lounge on 8th and Callowhill, which was a concert venue/social meeting space for non-profits. And you know, I think my relationship has very much been able to exist for the past 12 years because that didn’t happen.

You know, now with kids thinking about, oh, how would I have run a night club with kids?

Didn’t even really cross my mind at the time, and years later it seems like, well that would have been a really hard thing to deal with, and I probably would not have had a second kid or had a wife by the end of it.

But you know, who knows?

I think it would have been interesting. But that was the sort of first bigger, sort of more realist…you know, not more realistic, but the first attempt I made at starting a real business.

Nick: I definitely had some cash business ventures in my younger years, but…

Alex: Oh yeah, for sure.

I mean, I’ve always been a bit of a hustler.

Like I remember one time I went to Thailand as a teenager and I saw how much they were charging for fancy aquarium fish there.

I’m a fish hobbyist. And I saw they had discuses and other cichlids, the angelfish for like pennies.

So I had started to come up with like a whole idea of how much would it cost me to import it, how many tanks would I need to keep them in, and you know, and then I got distracted and went on to something else.

And I was also 14 or 15, so I just didn’t…you know, there was other things to get in trouble with at that time. But…

Nick: Certainly.

So that age range actually is a really good…is a good frame of mind to think back to yourself at 13 or 14.

So like who was your biggest entrepreneurial influence when you were growing up versus who would you say it is now?

Alex: Oh boy.

Growing up, you know, I would say my grandfather.

My grandfather, he wasn’t really an entrepreneur, he worked at GE which became Lockheed and then Martin Marietta, and he worked from the mail room on up, never got his college degree, you know, sort of like old school working guy.

But you know, just like the way that he talked about how he moved up, and how he hustled, and how he just outworked people, really influenced me very strongly early on, and just also…you know, I remember he told me this one thing which is, just remember that you’re always surrounded by mediocre people that will do the bare minimum they need in order to get through the day.

Nick: Is a really good piece of advice.

Alex: And you know, if you just do like the extra work and you just show up early and do all these other things, like you can make up for a lot of sort of what you might perceive as faults in yourself. And so yeah, he really was an early influence on me.

I think later on, one of the people that really influenced me a lot was Tim Gunn, who is from the show, “Project Runway”, and I worked with Tim for years at The New School at Parsons Fashion School.

And he…before he started “Project Runway”, he was the chair of the fashion school, and he really…had no fashion background, he came in through the Bursar’s Office at The New School, and he really taught himself how to manage in fashion and how to become like this, you know, now what people would think of as a fashion icon, he really self-taught himself all that stuff.

And then when he did project runway, it was really the same.

He wasn’t my boss, I worked for administration, and he was under academics, which was two different sort of chains of command at the university.

So he was more like my client, I did all the technology for the Parsons Fashion School.

So, I came back from a vacation during the summer, and I met with my boss at the main New School location on 13th Street, and I went up to 40th Street where the fashion school was, and my boss hadn’t said anything to me that anything was weird, he was just like go up and get ready to do the work for getting ready for students, and I got up to Parsons and all of my computers were gone out of the rooms, the digital classrooms, and people all over the place, and I’m like, what the hell is all this? And someone comes in and says, are you Alex?

Yes. Tim wants to talk to you.

So I go and I talk to Tim, and Tim tells me the story.

You know, they had been working on this show which I’d kind of heard about for the last couple of months, and they have lined up the contestants and the judges and everything, and then two weeks before they were supposed to start, the head of the new school from the administration side, who was technically my boss’ boss’ boss, the provost of the school, caught wind of the fact that the Weinstein brothers were involved in the project, and demanded that they pay a million dollars for the rights to film at The New School and to use the name, and blah-blah-blah.

So, the producers were like, you know what, we’re just gonna go to FIT, which is like Parson’s fashion’s arch-rival down the block.

So, Tim basically decided, well you know what?

Fuck this, I’m gonna…I’m just going to do it anyway.

And I’m just not gonna tell them. And that’s what he did. He did it in secret.

And so he told me the story, like yeah, well, they were gonna move it, so I just decided, you know what, I’m just gonna do it anyway.

It’s the right thing to do, and I’m just gonna do it.

And he told me, you know, if anything happens, blame it on him, but then he also said something which I really live by as an entrepreneur, which is, it’s better to beg forgiveness than to ask for permission.

And of course the show filmed over the summer, nobody at the university ever came up to fashion, no nobody noticed that it was happening.

We got everything ready for the students in time and it all went off without a hitch, and then when it premiered, which I believe was during Thanksgiving break, it was during one of the breaks, you know, it was sort of like this mini firestorm for like a day until like all the reviews starting pouring in and all the popularity started to become apparent, and then it became obvious, like yeah, you should obviously do this, and do it for free, or pay them to come do it, you know, for how much you get out of it, but their short sighting this was gonna be an impediment, so he just did it anyway.

And I always…I had nothing but love for the guy. Before that, he was really my guardian angel at the university and really helped me out in many ways, but that one episode was just amazing, just like him doing it without permission.

And then as a result of it though, because of his contract with The New School, he didn’t get paid for “Project Runway” for the first I think three seasons.

He didn’t make a dime off of that show. He just did it straight out of he thought it was the right thing to do, it was all out of love, and that really was inspiring to me, very much so.

Nick: That’s incredible.

I mean, who would have guessed?

That’s a really cool story. Is a really fortunate, like lucky experience to be able to have this exposure, and sort of just have like a serendipitous relationship form, and that’s awesome.

It’s amazing how many…like all the really successful guys I talk to, it’s amazing how much serendipity, and just being in the right place at the right time has sort of led to opening doors even just a little bit, and the true entrepreneurs put their foot in the crack and kick the door open.

Alex: Right. I mean, I think part of the beauty of having ADD is that it makes you naturally more curious, and sort of less focused on a specific thing, and more focused on like sort of those champs encounters, I think.

You know, I don’t know if that’s just me, but it’s always felt like part of me just sort of floats around looking for those things at some level, although I do take a lot of charge in things. But I also do put a lot of faith in these chance encounters.

Nick: I would say the same.

I don’t know if that’s…it’s definitely not just you, maybe it’s just you and me.

I don’t know.

I would actually say the same.

Do you have any like routines or rituals that you sort of practice to stay productive?

Alex: Yeah, I have a lot of them, but I think the biggest one is meticulous note-taking and reminders, and I use a calendar.

I try to adhere to the getting things done sort of light…you know, a lighter version of getting things done. But yeah, I put things in calendars, I put things in task lists, I put in reminders, I have a whole system in my email that I use.

So yeah, I rely very heavily on systems that I set up for myself, and I always will have notebooks or my phone either in my hand or handy to jot things down so that I don’t forget.

Nick: Yeah, I’ve gotten…it’s everybody…the folks I talk to, again, that are able to reign in their ADD to like be truly productive and build and grow these real businesses, it’s amazing how many tools they sort of self-develop, or how many different systems and approaches they stitch together to sort of form their own framework to be able to actually stay productive.

Alex: And I think luckily for me a lot of times like my mind will just come back to things.

Like I might lose things for a little while, but it almost always comes back to me just maybe when I’m walking or…oh that’s the other thing I do, I walk a lot. So I’m constantly trying to burn off energy.

So I walk probably five miles a day or so, at least five miles a day, sometimes I walk…

Nick: Where are you walking?

Alex: You know, I walk from the art museum area down to work, and back, and then I’ll usually go for a mile or two walk at lunch, and then if I have any meetings, I walk to the meetings.

I walk everywhere, I try never to get in the car if I can avoid it. It can be raining, snowing, I don’t care, I walk.

So I’m really…but I think at some level the ADD actually really is very helpful as a CEO.

Like I could imagine if I didn’t, my business partner probably has…I don’t know if OCD is the opposite of ADD, and I don’t know that she has OCD, but you know, she’s very focused on things.

So she gets super hyper in the weeds in things, and it’s very hard for her to sometimes get out of that. And you know, the varied demands that come from owning a business can sometimes really bother her a lot.

For me, I can sort of just go with the flow. Right?

Like someone will email me right after this, and I’ll be able to just switch off from doing this interview, and just email them right away, and I won’t have to think about the contacts for all…so I think it’s very beneficial from that regards, being a CEO and having it.

Nick: No, it’s amazing.

Running through like the list of essentially famous people that have ADD and just how different they are, like…you know, like you’ve got the entrepreneurs that really stand out, like Richard Branson, Paul Orfalea, the founder of Kinko’s, David Neeleman, founder of JetBlue, Ingvar Kamprad, the founder of IKEA.

Like you’ve got these big name entrepreneurs, but then like there’s also musicians like Justin Timberlake, and then you’ve got actors like Will Smith, Paul Kennington, Jim Carey, and then even athletes, and it’s just…yeah, it’s funny how it’s used as like a fuel for talent across so many different verticals or careers, I guess I could say.

Alex: Right.

And I think a misconception about it that you just sort of addressed, is that it’s not always a learning disability, right?

It’s not that…ADD can certainly be a learning disability in severe cases, and a lot of times people with other things like other disorders might have ADD, but on its own, it’s not always a learning disability.

And I don’t think I ever really felt like I was learning disabled in any way. I would procrastinate and do my work at the last minute, but I that didn’t mean I couldn’t figure it out.

Nick: There’s the stigma…the stigma around it being a disorder is still sort of hard to overcome.

And the stigma sort of that I’m seeing that more people I talk to and the more I research, there’s this divide between people that don’t really want to talk about it or sort of admit it and embrace it, and there’s people that like wear it on their sleeve like a badge of honor.

Alex: Right, and I think probably it’s the people…you know, I would think that there’s probably…you know, if you really were to go and refine the DSM to cover this whole spectrum of it, I would guess you’d have ADD as attention deficit disorder, and then sort of attention deficit disability.

Right?

Like so it’s either…at some point, it might make you learning-disabled.

Nick: Yeah, that’s a really interesting distinction that I’ve not thought about before.

Alex: And I’ve definitely met people who for sure it was a huge learning disability for them.

But yeah, it’s not…I don’t feel like it’s been for myself.

Nick: So do you…and you sort of already started to answer this.

Do you have any I guess what I would call like whacky habits or behaviors?

I mean, the walking is a pretty good example.

I mean, I don’t think it’s that whacky, but you walk a lot. Five miles a day is a lot.

Alex: Sure.

I mean, I wear hats every day.

I mean, that’s pretty whacky.

I mean, I go for the whacky.

So, I don’t know that I have too many quirks that are not like typical ADD, being loud, interrupting.

You know, if interrupting was a superpower, I’d have…I’d be like…I’d have…

Nick: Captain Interrupter?

Alex: Exactly.

But I think the walking is…I mean, I have…I create…I don’t know, again, if this is ADD or what, but I create little rules for myself, I have…I don’t eat beef, pork, or shellfish, which is not religious, but is sort of philosophical, but…so that’s kind of whacky to people.

I would say I’m a pretty whacky, weird person in general, but I don’t think that’s the ADD, I just think I’m a weirdo.

Nick: I like it, I like it.

How would you say in general you get along with other folks that have ADD?

And like do you have any employees that self-identify with ADD?

Alex: Oh yeah. I mean, I think I get along well with people with ADD.

I think generally people with ADD get along with each other.

I think I’m not hyperactive in the same way, so the hyperactive part can really get on my nerve sometimes.

But no, I have friends, I have many friends who have ADD, and I think probably…I think probably a good percentage of my very good friends have ADD or some other cockiness about them.

So you know, I think I do get along well with ADD type people because we can have sort of scattered conversations, just like we’re having now, we all…and it keeps going back towards the right spot, but you don’t worry too much about the structure of it.

I think I have a lot of problems, and again, I don’t know if it’s a personality thing or an ADD thing, but I think there’s a lot of people who are more reserved, who can have problems with me and with how I come across, and how I’m always interrupting and all those sorts of things.

And definitely quieter people can get really…because I’m not just interrupting, I’m also very loud. I don’t know if it’s coming across in the phone.

But I have basically like two volumes, like yell and like complete silence, and I’m never silent. So, it’s…you know, I don’t know which of the quirks that I got, you know, correspond to how people perceive me, but…

Nick: Again, that flows pretty well right into what would you say are your most and least favorite, you know, sort of ADD-attributable characteristics?

Alex: Well least favorite, I think…you know, I don’t know if it’s directly ADD.

But the procrastination thing has always tortured me. I don’t know why I need to work under the gun so often, but it’s always been the way that I work best, but it also drives me crazy.

So that would be my sort of least favorite. And also just the fact that sometimes it does get my…me in trouble with my wife and kids.

My favorite part is like I said, I think the CEO…the fact that it helps me as the CEO, and that it really gives me some tools that I’m able to rely on, that get me through my normal days, where it might be a lot harder for someone if they couldn’t switch their attention from task to task really quickly.

Nick: So that starts to answer the next question, which is how, you know, would you say it’s up to grow your business, and how, and it sounds like…so that seems like that’s really an effective tool for you to be able to just go, like jump from task to task to task and knock shit out.

Alex: Yeah, but it’s also been…so that’s like sort of the other negative thing, which is like it also can hurt me when really good planning is needed, like I’m really good when I can work on instinct, and really go after things, and go hunt for business opportunities and those sorts of things.

But when I really…you know, sometimes it’s been more challenging when I really have to plan or think very thoroughly before making decisions.

I think I’m much better when I can use my instincts to make choices and to think through things, but I think there’s definitely been times when I really would have benefited from being able to be a little bit more laid back, thoughtful and deliberative.

Nick: That makes…actually makes a lot of sense.

Do you have a favorite book on either business or productivity?

Alex: So “Getting Things Done” is probably my favorite book on productivity that I used to give out, or that I still do give out here and there. Books on productivity or…

Nick: Why is “Getting Things Done”…why does that one stand out for you?

Alex: It’s very practical and it’s about setting up systems to get things out of your head.

And I think that one of the things, there tends to be a little bit of a disorganized nature to ADD, and so getting your ideas into structured form quickly, and then finding ways to decide which things get attention when, is super, super valuable, and super helpful, and was really key for me early on in the business especially, but still to this day I still try to improve upon it constantly.

But was really important for me early on to be able to sort of keep up with the growing numbers of just request coming in and just responsibilities that were on my plate, and different sorts of activities that I had to take part in on a daily basis.

What advice would you offer to like an aspiring entrepreneur who has ADD?

Alex: Let’s see.

Well, I mean…I think you’ve got to follow something that you’re passionate about, or you’re gonna lose attention from it.

You know, I think that’s probably not different from other people, but you really have to have an overall passion for your job, or it’s gonna be increasingly hard as you grow to keep track of everything or to even bother trying to keep on top of everything.

So I think setting up those systems early to keep you accountable to yourself and to your business partners and customers is super important.

And I would also say following up and following through, which are not necessarily the things that people with ADD are naturally best at, are super important.

And then the other part, the flip side is don’t get overly focused on the things that are not core to your business. Because I think you can easily get distracted by and go down rabbit holes, and I constantly do, with things that just sort of get me riled up or get me going in some sort of impassioned way, sort of like politics, or if I think someone’s done me wrong or if I have some sort of beef with someone, I mean, I might go and really focus on…you know, I’ll get in one of those tunnels, but it’s not gonna be productive to my business.

So trying to keep…make sure that when you do get in one of these attention things, make sure that it’s focused on those things that are gonna drive your business forward, and not just drive your, you know, whatever, sort of internal checkboxes you need checked off.

So, you know, it’s not about making you feel good necessarily, which is I think something that’s hard to get in a fundamental way.

But it does make you feel good if you can just get focused on the right things.

Nick: That really make sense.

That’s pretty solid advice.

Well, hey man, that’s all I got.

I just wanna say thank you again, I really appreciate you taking the time and providing so much insight. I think it’s been really awesome.

Alex: Awesome.

Glad to talk about it, and yeah, I look forward to hearing more podcasts in the future.

Nick: Yeah, I hope I can keep it going.