Ep. 11 - Mary Bowman - A Rec Management Podcast inside a Podcast

Appalachian Outdoorosity

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Joy James, a professor in App State's Department of Recreation Management and Physical Education, interviews App State graduate, Mary Bowman. While a student, Mary created a podcast called "Mumbling Mountaineer Minutes," wherein she explored Student Perceptions of Physical Activity Incorporated into Science Lessons. Listen to this podcast within a podcast as Mary interviews herself. This episode has so many levels.

Show Notes

Mary Bowman, She/Her
Graduated Spring 2023 from App State with a degree in Recreation Management
Worked at Outdoor Programs for the Outing Center
Was involved in Venture Scouts
Worked at Boy Scouts of America Philmont Scout Ranch
Completed her Recreation Management and Physical Education Department Honor’s Thesis “A Pilot Study: Student Perceptions of Physical Activity Incorporated into Science Lessons” in collaboration with the HOPE Lab
As a part of her RM Senior Seminar, she completed a podcast on her thesis and this is what this episode is about.

Transcript

Becki Battista
Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity, where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share App State stories that entertain, inspire and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story with the goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by the Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on health, the environment and human development.
Becki Battista
The vision of the Hope Lab is to continue developing the foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu. Hi, my name is Becki Battista. I am a professor in exercise science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed outdoor physical activity addict.
Becki Battista
I'm your host for today's episode of the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast. On today's episode, team member Dr. Joy James, a professor in recreation management, interviews her former recreation management student Mary Bowman. This is a different take for our podcast where we highlight Mary's RMPE Departmental Honors thesis. She worked on a project with the Hope Lab team. Then, as part of a class project, she created a podcast about her research.
Becki Battista
When Joy heard the podcast, she knew we had to highlight it here on Appalachian Outdoorosity.
Joy James
So, it's Joy James here on Outdoorosity. We're so excited. Our guest is Mary Bowman, who's a recent graduate from Appalachian State University in recreation management. So, I'm going to let Mary kinda introduce herself. Both of us are having trouble because we giggle a lot. So, listeners, be prepared for that. So, Mary, if you'll introduce yourself and tell us where you're from and what your favorite outdoor recreation activity is.
Mary Bowman
I am Mary Bowman. I am from Cary. So, Mary from Cary. I just graduated from App in May. Went there because at the time I was undecided and thought that I could really get a good kinda liberal arts experience. I found recreation management and just fit right in. Yeah, my favorite recreational activity is backpacking. I haven't done it in a while.
Mary Bowman
Work is really taking it out of me, but I’m really happy to get back into it in the coming season.
Joy James
Mary, share with us what you're doing for work too. I think that's interesting.
Mary Bowman
Yeah, I am working at Grandfather Mountain Stewardship Foundation as an environmental educator. We get groups at the mountain that are school groups, but also just some other groups that come and we do some environmental education. So, programs going outside as much as we can.
Joy James
Cool. I know it's a cool job. I love Grandfather.
Mary Bowman
Yeah, me too.
Joy James
Tell us how you first got interested in the outdoors. Like what experiences is or what's a story that you would be willing to share that helped you kind of realize the outdoors was a path that you wanted to pursue, both personally and professionally.
Mary Bowman
Yeah. So, I am the only daughter with two older brothers who are actively involved in scouting, and I would always tag along on a bunch of their trips, especially when my dad became a scoutmaster. And so, I kind of was an honorary scout when I was a kid and tried my hand at Girl Scouts. And it wasn't the path that really called to me.
Mary Bowman
And so, when I was old enough, I joined Venture Scouts and which is a high adventure coed, youth led form of scouting and really, really just found my calling there. I did Sea Base. I did Philmont. I did Northern Tier during the winter. So, I did all of the extremes. I was super-hot. I was super cold. I was very tired the entire time.
Mary Bowman
But I found when I was doing that, especially as I age up within the crew, that I loved when we got new scouts in and I had to kind of guide them through everything and like start like, this is how you camp. This how you set up a tent. This is the best way to leave, no trace, all this kind of stuff. I realized I could make a profession out of it by going to national parks and seeing the interpretive park rangers I was like,
Joy James
Yes, please sign me up. Cool! At Outdoorosity, we haven't really talked to people who've come up through the scouting movement, let alone Boy Scouts and venture scouts. Before the Boy Scouts kind of accepted both girls and boys. And would you say Boy Scouts is where you learned how to backpack, or were you backpacking before that?
Mary Bowman
It was because of scouting that I learned how to backpack. My dad would kind of take our family to scout out the trails that they would go out with the scouts. So, we did it. We did a few trails like that, but it was really once I started getting into scouting myself and when we needed to go to Philmont and do all of those prep hikes that I really kind of fell in love with backpacking.
Joy James
I could talk about this a longer time. Unfortunately, I can't talk to you longer because I brought you on this podcast to help showcase an assignment that you did as part of a class you were in with me. And also, Mary did her departmental honors thesis with the Hope Lab, who's a sponsor of Outdoorosity and also part of the assignment that I had in the class was to do a podcast, and Mary was brilliant and she combined her research for her honors thesis with some of the work that she was doing and this other class with me.
Joy James
And one of these assignments was to create a podcast and this podcast was so good and it really kind of showcases not only the work that you did. Mary, it showcases what the Hope Lab is all about, trying to help people become more comfortable in the outdoors. And so, I really wanted to share this podcast that you created with the Outdoorosity listeners.
Joy James
So, before we kind of give them a taste of, of the podcast in your own words frame or set the picture for us. When you created the podcast, what were you going for? And just kind of set the tone because I know you approached it from a different way and had a unique take on the assignment, so I'll let you share from there.
Mary Bowman
Yeah, well, first I want to say that the biggest struggle with this assignment was the time limit that was set on it. Because once I started, like writing my script and everything. I was like, I, this is way too long. I think it would end up being like six or so minutes longer than it needs to be, which is just me talking, which is a lot.
Joy James
It was fine that you went over. It was a ten minute limit and I was so engaged as I hope the audience will be engaged with your talking.
Mary Bowman
I tried to approach it with kind of like it was more like a like a newspaper, sort of like column kind of thing where there's this set up where every week there's another time that we talk about a topic associated with App State and I was the host and the guest on my podcast, so I kind of focused on the research that I had been doing with Joy James and kind of just also a little bit of my experience and connecting the class with my experience in the outdoors.
Mary Bowman
And yeah, I just kind of had a lot of fun. I tried to make it as alliterative as possible, so it’s like, Mumbling Mountaineer Minutes. I and I hope you can hear me because I am talking very low.
Joy James
She’s an Appalachian mountain Mumbler, but no. So, what we're going to do at this point is switch over to that podcast to let the listeners listen and then we're going to come back and talk with Mary. So have a listen.
Mumbler
Hail and well met fellow M&Ms. I am your host. Mumbler and this is your podcast ‚Mumbling Mountain Mountaineer Minutes. For any new listeners tuning in, the Mumbling Mountaineer Minutes podcast is my show where I get people talking in low voices about fascinating topics across campus. Last week we had Dr. H, one of App State's very own IO psychologists talking about the organizational structure of the university as a psych minor, I found that very interesting and I hope you all did as well. So go back and give that one to listen if you haven’t already. Moving into today’s topic, we’ve got a student doing some research on physical activity levels in classrooms, children and even adults. Physical activity levels have been decreasing over the last few decades, and now researchers are trying to find ways to get kids more active.
Mumbler
One such researcher is focusing on how first grade students perceive the incorporation of movement into science lessons. Are they engaged, learning more or being more active? All these questions and more we will explore during this episode. So, without further ado, it is time to introduce our guest for today, Mary Bowman. Please tell us a little bit about yourself.
Mary Bowman
Yeah, of course. Well, first of all, let me thank you for having me today, long time listener and all that.
Mumbler
I love to hear that.
Mary Bowman
But yeah, so I am a senior recreation management student with a concentration in park and recreation management with dreams of being an interpretive park ranger. I have been working with Doctors James and Towner and the Hope or Healthy Outdoor Play and Exercise Lab to kind of examine these questions a little bit more.
Mumbler
Wowee! Senior huh? And so, you're graduating this spring. so.
Mary Bowman
Yeah, less than two weeks.
Mumbler
Yeah. Wow. Well, congratulations.

Mary Bowman

Thank you.

Mumbler

So, tell us a little bit more about how kids activity in classrooms impacts your field, like recreation, national parks, that kind of stuff.
Mary Bowman
Sure. So, a lot of research shows that children who get exposure to physical activity throughout their childhood are more likely to remain active later in life. That's kind of the interest that I took in this. And because children aren't being as active and especially not getting outdoors as much in the same droves, there is a concern about their health, but also something that we're kind of seeing in recreation is that there's a lot less awareness of outdoor recreational activities. People may know the premise of these activities, such as backpacking, rock climbing and mountain biking, but not so much is how to, like get in. So, part of what I'm actually interested in is helping to introduce kids to these concepts. And actually, something I worked on with Dr. James before is an event called Outdoor Expo, where I and two other college students went to the Appalachian Academy at Middle Fork, which is actually where the research for my thesis took place, and we showed them a couple of outdoor activities, ways to be active. We had an inflatable gaga ball pit. One of the students was teaching about no knots. One about packing a backpack. And so, we were having all these kids walk around in like partially packed backpacks and it was like really cute. But then I was giving a little introduction to Leave No Trace. So great time all around. But we noticed that there wasn't a lot of awareness of the possibilities of outdoor recreation.
Mumbler
So, there's a lot of interconnectedness that people don't really think about.

Mary Bowman

Yes, exactly. I mean, it's just habits, right? If kids make habits of getting outdoors, then they're going to be more likely to continue those habits throughout their life.

Mumbler

So here comes the question, what did you do as a kid?
Mary Bowman
I okay, let's see. I played a lot in the creek behind my house. You could even say I was an executive chef at the Mud Pie restaurant in my backyard. And as I got older, I got involved in scouting mainly boy scouting. Like that kind of branch. Not as much as girl scouting. So, I did more camping, hiking, backpacking, fishing, scuba diving, climbing.
Mumbler
Just a little bit of everything. okay. So quite the diverse spread. Have you continued these into your college life?
Mary Bowman
Yes. Not as much as I would have liked with, like, classes and work and whatnot getting in the way. But yes. What about you?
Mumbler
Let's see. I did a lot of just going to my local park. My parents took us out for walks quite a bit and there was a lake there so you could rent canoes and kind of paddle around. But same as you. I've had a bit of shift and focus during my time here at App.
Mary Bowman
Understandable. I'm. I'm right there with you. But. But, hey, hit me up and we should go for a paddle sometime.

Mumbler

You know what? I might just take you up on that, but there is something that I want to get back to just a little bit. You mentioned that there wasn't as much awareness of some of these recreational activities. Can you dive more into that? What are the challenges that the recreation field is facing as a result of low physical activity levels in children?
Mary Bowman
Wow, that's a big question. Yeah, it is a little bit of a big question.
Mumbler
Sorry. This is just a fascinating topic. And the question just kind of developed more as I was talking.
Mary Bowman
No. You're all good. I'm just I'm but a wee undergraduate student, so I'll do my best. Right. So, kids who aren't getting the recommended 60 minutes of moderate to vigorous physical activity per day are more at risk for a whole range of health challenges. And there is the aspect that kids aren't learning a lot about these recreational activities. So, if they ever get into backpacking, hiking, climbing, these sorts of contexts, they have to overcome the physicality aspect and the knowledge aspect. So both of those. Both can be addressed, but it does bring on this question of safety. People can see the outdoor rec industry as sort of this like in-group and in a respect, there is a group that is like in the know and not. There's a lot of terminology that people need to be aware of protocols and behaviors that should be followed lest you risk life and limb. So, the challenge that recreation faces specifically is how to get kids introduced to these concepts to lower their risk of health stuff and to keep them safer out in these contexts. And there have been a lot of great programs which aim to do just that. National parks are working with local schools during the off season. Other events like the outdoor expo that I put on and other stuff like that. The other aspect of this though is how do you get kids engaged in outdoor activities? Like, kids these days and, you know, also like US TVs, phones, TikTok, video games and all of that, it's all more immediate gratification that is hard to tear kids away from. So that is what recreation professionals have to struggle with.

Mumbler

Wow. Interesting. Okay. So, it’s challenging to get kids to engage and aware of some of these outdoor activities.
Mary Bowman
Yeah, but research reiterates time and time again what benefits everyone, not just kids, get from getting outside and getting active.

Mumbler

Right. Of course, even with the little background I have on this topic, it's generally a well-known thing. Like I might not know all the specifics, but people know that there are benefits to getting outside, getting active, right? What are all the angles? I mean, during my time hosting this podcast, I’ve rarely encountered a topic that didn’t have criticisms.
Mary Bowman
Sure. And I would be interested on your thoughts on this because I've drunk the proverbial Kool-Aid and I'm bought in. I've been working on this research for a long time, and it's all that occupies my thoughts. I do want to emphasize that I'm not saying that indoor activity is not good, really any activity is beneficial. It's just that outdoor activity has all the benefits of like base level activity coupled with the benefits of being outdoors.

Mumbler

Oh. Okay. So that's actually what I was going to say. Like, what is wrong with indoor activity?

Mary Bowman

Right. So, there's nothing wrong with indoor activity. That is actually kind of what the research I was working on with Dr. James focused on. So, since it was a pilot study that took place during November, there wasn't a lot of outdoor activity. What the surveys ended up analyzing was student perceptions of enjoyment and an indoor active lesson versus indoor non-active lesson.

Mumbler

Okay, interesting. So, you and I know that there are benefits of being active and being active in the outdoors. What can say recreation professionals do to try to solve this?
Mary Bowman

So funny you say that I recently had the opportunity to host a discussion about that very topic in my senior seminar class, So I asked my fellow students what we could do to lower the barriers that are preventing kids from participating. And we came up with a decent list. So first, having free or low cost programs, a lot of outdoor recreation programs and activities require a non-insignificant amount of money, like gear costs, like backpacks, tents, food, boots, clothes, all that kind of stuff that all racks up really quickly and that can prevent people from ever being able to participate. But also, things like admission fees or tickets to get in to get into some of these recreation areas that can also prevent participation. So, we talked about lowering that barrier.

Mumbler

That would be nice.
Mary Bowman
Right? I mean, and it does kind of hint at the sort of cynical perspective that we all have about capitalism. And a lot of us want to break down as many barriers as possible, but we also want to be able to provide quality programing. Yeah. And I wish I could offer more methods, on like how to make those actual changes, but that's above my pay grade.

Mumbler

Mine as well. So, what else did yall come up with?
Mary Bowman
Sure. So, we also mentioned lowering expectations for kids participating in local parks and rec programs, extending more invitations, having club teams as well as ranked teams and exposure to more sports and activities. So lowering expectations for kids and having club teams is kind of the way that we're trying to create a welcoming environment that doesn't have the pressure for achievement. We talked about in class how some of us got burned out playing for teams where all people, parents and coaches wanted us to do was win. And a lot of times that competitive atmosphere ruined participation. Extending more invitations was trying to tackle the problem that some people don't know, what they don't know. Residents may not know everything that their local Parks and Rec department is offering, and that starts to go deep into more of how can we make recreational spaces more welcoming and inclusive.

Mumbler

Something that's fascinating, but we don't have time for it.
Mary Bowman
Right? Give me the airspace for that and this episode would be hours long.

Mumbler

So your classmates focus more on the local Parks and Rec aspect.

Mary Bowman

Yeah, so a lot of our discussions circle around local parks and rec and that's a great place to focus attention, get people more active in their community to foster initial relations, and then they can explore more specialized things by branching out. But as someone interested in working with the national Park system, I have like a thought or two about what the national Park System can do.

Mumbler

Yes, please, by all means.

Mary Bowman

So I mentioned a little bit before about how there is often programing with local schools during the offseason and national parks.

Mumbler

Right.

Mary Bowman

So essentially, and this doesn't sound very groundbreaking, but just continuing that, having more outreach programing, partnerships and that kind of stuff with local organizations to establish relationships, but also doing it on a larger, more dedicated scale, those programs can create foundational relationships between kids and parks that lead to those habits being created and continued throughout life. There are programs such as Muddy Sneakers and Wild Watch that engage school age children with outdoor activities and science, and then invite them to a site such as Grandfather Mountain Stewardship Foundation to explore more about what they have learned. And these programs teach some environmentally conscious behaviors to ensure their safety in the outdoors and since they're typically school age children, the safety of the outdoors itself.
Mumbler
Wow. Okay. Some interesting concepts. And you said Muddy Sneakers and Wild Watch.

Mary Bowman

Yeah. Science programing that gets kids outside and interacting with nature.

Mary Bowman

Helping them to foster a sense of appreciation. You could say!

Mary Bowman

Exactly!

Mumbler

So, we know what students are saying. What is research saying?

Mary Bowman

Right. So, kind of what we started talking about, researchers are looking at does physical activity in academic lessons increase enjoyment learning and does it actually help them to become more active? Unsurprisingly, the answer is a resounding yes. So, some of the studies that I read had researchers putting accelerometers on students and comparing physical activity during the interventions and during a control setting, which was just a typical like traditional lesson. Actual steps recorded were higher during the active lessons students reported higher enjoyment and overall academic performance was higher.

Mumbler

So pretty clear, huh?
Mary Bowman
Right. The obstacle, though, because you might be wondering why haven't we incorporated more physical activity into lessons is the feasibility of actually implementing these changes. Schools have been focusing more and more on academic performance because that's one of the ways that they get money. Higher performing schools are eligible for higher funding from state and other external sources. So that's where the focus is. And sometimes it's viewed as radical for schools or teachers to do away with traditional instructional method for something that is still new and doesn't guarantee the school to get money.

Mumbler

Schools are so underfunded as is. So I guess focusing on things that won't help them be able to offer resources to their students. It's not going to be on the top of the list.

Mary Bowman
Right.

Mumbler

Okay. So research has proven that incorporating physical activity into the classroom increases student enjoyment, engagement, academic achievement and physical activity.

Mary Bowman

Yes. And people are thinking about and talking about ways to break down the barriers between children and physical activity and getting outside.

Mumbler

Yeah.

Mary Bowman

So lowering costs wherever possible, removing some of the competitiveness in local recreation and engaging with the community...

Mumbler

..to build those relationships and know what resources are available to them.
Mary Bowman
Precisely.

Mumbler

All right, Mary, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was an absolute pleasure. You have the floor if you want to make any shoutouts.

Mary Bowman

Oh awesome. So thank you so much for having me. I would like to shout out to doctors James and Towner for their amazing research and perspectives, also to Stella Sapolsky because she's been awesome. Dr. James's 10:00 Senior Seminar class. Yall are also amazing. Mom and Dad, thank you so much for getting me outdoors as a kid and thank you listeners. Get up Get out and I'll see you out there.

Mumbler

Wonderful. Well, folks, that's all the time we have for today. If you have any questions or want to share your stories, go to the link of the description and you'll hear from me next week as we dive into the mystery of the Durham Park Bigfoot. Remember, Stay mumbling.

Mary Bowman

Are you telling me that there have been Bigfoot sightings at Durham Park?
Mumbler
Well, I can't say much right now, but some interesting stuff has been going on down there.
Mary Bowman
Well, I Guess I'll have to tune in then.

Mumbler

Hey, what canoeing in places are there near here?
Mary Bowman
Loads. Price Lake, Watauga Lake the New River. We can even take one out on the duck pond. There's also Watauga River and Wilson Creek. I could go on for ages.
Becki Battista
Today's episode is brought to you by the Hope Lab. One of the goals of the Hope Lab is to conduct research that encourages people of all ages to be active in outdoor settings. We work with students on research projects that can be honors or master's thesis. Many of our student researchers have published in scholarly journals and been recognized for their work.
Becki Battista
To learn more, visit hopelab.appstate.edu. Let's get back to the interview with Mary to see what she learned from her research and how it helped her as a professional.
Joy James
So, I want to ask Mary the experience of doing your honors thesis and that topic with the Hope Lab. What was significant to you that you think may not have come out in your podcast or now that you're, you know, six months away from it? What did it mean to you to be able to...how does this impact you as a professional or personally?
Mary Bowman
Yeah. So, the biggest thing in kind of just a little tangent. A little bit, I went on my first outreach with Grandfather Stewardship Foundation last week, and that's with a program called Wild Watch, which gets first graders trying to do more environmental education with them and getting them out of the classroom a little bit. My first outing was last week and I was super stressed about it, but I kind of remembered that thankfully the research that we had done was with first graders, and so I was able to kind of call back a little bit and was talking to my supervisor about it a little bit and just the amazing responses we got from their drawings.
Mary Bowman
It was just fascinating because everything that happened during the program, what they had looked for and really what called to them and with their drawings was being outside. That was fun. Moving around the classroom, being outside, that was great. But how much they looked to their classmates while they were doing this program. That was amazing for me to really know that having them
Mary Bowman
Do this together and explore things and learn as a group and share their findings and that that's what really called to them. And so, I was able to kind of take that with me as I went into the outreach and kind of keep that in mind and really try to engage them as much as possible with each other.
Mary Bowman
And yeah, that was that was the biggest thing that really impacted me.
Joy James
Wow. That is so cool to hear that social, you know, and you and I talked about this as you're doing the analysis that social seems very obvious that as humans we are drawn to the social connections and that reinforces our learning or our interests and activities that we're in. And at the same time, we're both still surprised that, social is really important.
Joy James
And I think you hit on something is particularly what Outdoorosity is trying to do is help people build skills in the outdoors and comfort. And also we want to build community and that's social. You talked about Boy Scouts and the venture scouts and then how you welcomed new scouts in and taught them new things. And you were a part of that community before you were even in the community.
Joy James
And so I think that's a key thing for us and the outdoors as well. So thank you for sharing kind of that insight and how it played out for you and will continue to, I think, as a professional. So we have a segment at the end. It's kind of a version of Rapid Fire. We call it Getting the Dirt on Getting Outside.
Joy James
And it's basically whatever comes off the top of your head and you’d be willing to share. And then I might ask you to expand. I might not say anything. I might join you in that. So the first one is what's your biggest fear when you're in the outdoors?
Mary Bowman
Snakes. Only snakes. So, I am not a snake person. I appreciate them so much. I know how much they do for the environment, but them being near me spooks me out so much. And one of the things about my job is that we have to hold snakes as part of an interpretive thing.
Joy James
You still do it?
Mary Bowman
So I tried for the first time, like a month or so ago, holding a snake, and I could do it for like 3 minutes before I was like, Get this away from me. It's adorable. I love her. She's amazing. Her name's Sally and I love her to death. She's a corn snake, but just having her on me I was like, breathing in cold air is not great.
Joy James
Wow. I'm impressed. Snakes is certainly one of the number one fears a lot of people have. And just even being in the presence of a snake, I've seen people kind of go ballistic and just they leave the room. So the fact that you were able to hold it at the same time, hold care and concern for it at the same time, recognizing I don't like it.
Joy James
I can't do this. All right.
Mary Bowman
I've grown up with snakes, too. Like my brother had some when I was in high school. There was one time that they...one of them got into my room and that probably did not help.
Joy James
You found it, I take it?
Mary Bowman
Yeah. My cat did. And I was like, What are you looking at? And it was it was one of his snakes. So yeah, it non-venomous it was a corn snake.
Joy James
Have you, in all the times that you've been like you were at Philmont and the water base one have you come across snakes?
Mary Bowman
Yeah. This one time that I was out doing a sunset hike with some of my coworkers at Philmont, and we were walking through this like it was like a knee high, like really dry grass, kind of like that alpine desert meadow kind of thing. And we were walking and I looked down. My foot was like centimeters away from this copperhead,...not a copperhead a rattler, and it wasn't rattling.
Mary Bowman
And I just said.
Joy James
Did you like, jump up or did you jump and run?
Mary Bowman
I stopped and I gave it the biggest burst that I could. And I kept my eyes on the ground because they blend in so well was I don't want to hurt any of them, but I also don't want to be bit.
Joy James
Gosh, I'm glad you did everything they were supposed to do. Some people's reaction is to actually kill the snake, rather, like you say, recognize that, hey, they belong there and I can go as far away from it as possible. And it obviously wasn't too scared if it wasn't rattling at you.
Mary Bowman
Right. Right. Well, I mean, the other thing is one of the biggest thing that this comes from working at the Stewardship Foundation are people who love snakes much more than I do. And we'll talk about it, especially during our program of how people can confuse corn snakes for copperheads. And so one of the big things that is a threat to corn snakes is just people willy nilly, just as you said, just kind of going after them.
Mary Bowman
And it's really sad because they're adorable and they help with rodents. Yeah, but I understand that I don't want them near me either.
Joy James
Yeah, there's almost human instinct to kill, but. All right. So the next question is, what is your most embarrassing outdoor moment?
Mary Bowman
Jeez. You don't know if I can talk about this, but there was. I was walking back after I left a crew at Philmont, and I really had to go to the bathroom and I was in this like it was like a rock slide area. So, it was like almost completely bald. And there were just a bunch of, like, small rocks everywhere.
Mary Bowman
And I can't make it past this. And I was just like this over there, off the trail a little bit, this crossing my fingers that nobody would come near me.

Joy James
Did they!?

Mary Bowman
Nobody did. But I just remember it was just like looking around me. But also thankfully, those mountains have cougars and I was just constantly like, I know that they can blend in so well.
Mary Bowman
And I hope just I don't want any living thing seeing me right now.
Joy James
But I've totally been in this position before. I can't say that I haven't been caught. So. But you know, you're right. The Bears, like even when I haven't been caught, you're just you still like and it can impede your success or whatever.
Mary Bowman
There was another time. Sorry, I hit my mic. There was another time that I was in Alaska with my crew and we were doing our sea kayaking portion. And when you are sea kayaking and you're on the on the bay, you can go number one in the woods, but they don't want you going number 2 in the woods. You're supposed to go number two in the big blue.
Mary Bowman
And so there I was on this bank and a boat cruised by. It was awful. I was like please don’t see me. But I couldn't hide.
Joy James
Oh my God. You know, I bet the boat people looked away.
Mary Bowman
I hope so. Oh my God.
Joy James
No, that was that was where my incident occurred, too, was when I was sea kayaking. And there's just like you say, there's just no getting away from it. At the same time, the need is so pressing. But anyway, it's a very human thing to have to go to the bathroom.
Mary Bowman
Yes. indeed.
Joy James
So, the next question is kind of like, what is your must have piece of outdoor equipment that you'd never leave home without or you can't live without when you're in the outdoors?
Mary Bowman
I really like bringing a journal with me whenever I go out. Typically, I'm good at bringing everything that I need to survive. So that's kind of my priority is kind of bringing that that journal. When I was...everything's going to go back to Philmont, but I know that at Philmont it was suggested to us to journal we were out there and I still sometimes look at some of the stuff that I'd written and it's just the time to kind of be there.
Mary Bowman
You can, you know, be with people when you're writing or you can kind of like find a little secluded place and just reflect on the things that you're seeing where you've been. And somebody asked me recently to give some advice about when they are going to Philmont as a crew. And all I could remember was really how important that was for me to learn how much I could deal with...my limits, my strengths, and what priorities I kind of focused on when I was when I was out there.
Mary Bowman
And journaling really helped me really catalog everything that I did because it’s always want to look back on what you do, but also a little deeper and see kind of what resonates, resonates with you.
Joy James
I think that's so powerful that you introduced this idea at Philmont and you continue to do it. Can I ask, you know, like when you're backpacking, everybody's worried about weight. So, is your journal like a little tablet or is it a bound book? Like, how do you carry or how do you determine what size to bring with you?
Mary Bowman
So, I am not an ultralight backpacker. That's never been a possibility for me. I always bring too much stuff. My parents had gotten me this little journal. It's like a leather journal. Yeah, probably like I have no idea how to quantify it.
Joy James
Like the size of your hand.
Mary Bowman
A big is a little bit bigger than my hand. I would write kind of in that and it wasn't super heavy. But again, like everybody has different priorities when they're when they're out backpacking, whether they want some more comforts, whether they want absolutely bare minimum lite camping. But I like to journal. So yeah, yeah.
Joy James
Well, something we didn't even share. I got one more question for you, but before I do that, I do think it's important to share with the students or for the listeners is that did you work at outdoor programs as well during your time at App State? What was the role that you had with outdoor programs?
Mary Bowman
So, I was just the kind of front desk person who would talk to you if you're going to rent gear, sign up for trips, all that kind of stuff. The world changed a little bit over the four years that I worked there. Initially, we were fuzed with the climbing wall, but we ended up separating, which honestly was for the best, but yes, setting up trips, answering questions and all that kind of stuff.
Mary Bowman
It was really awesome.
Joy James
So, you kind of continued your theme of helping venture scouts and then you moved it to college and helped students who are coming in. So, the last question is for here in Boone. Do you have a favorite local outdoor spot that you go to on a regular basis that you would, you know that you'd want to share with the audience?
Mary Bowman
Well, there are some like different places, depending on how I'm feeling. I recently moved a little bit outside of Boone, so I can't I really liked going to the Greenway and kind of like sitting out there behind the baseball fields with my roommate or my cat just kind of sitting out there. It was really nice to just kind of chill and be just outside without a lot of Pressure, like having to hike out...
Mary Bowman
But when I did want to hike out places, I really like the Boone Fork Trail. That's really nice. It's got kind of everything. It's got meadows but rivers and scrambling and ladders and steps and kind of all that kind of stuff. And I know most people already know about this, but it's one of those that you want to keep on the down low because you don't want a bunch of other people there.
Mary Bowman
But for the last few years on my birthday, I've been going out to refuge to watch the sunset. Yeah, and it's just a really nice place to have a cup of tea and read a little bit while the sun sets.
Joy James
Cool. That's a great idea. Well, Mary, thank you so much for being willing to allow us to share your Mumbler podcast. And the Hope Lab was very thrilled with the work that you did with us. And in fact, we are moving forward on some of that research and going to be doing some more with the drawings that were done after we had the the bug intervention.
Joy James
And so maybe we'll be sharing more about that later.
Mary Bowman
Yes, please.
Joy James
So again, thank you for your time.
Mary Bowman
Thank you for having me.
Joy James
All right. Cool!
Becki Battista
Mary's path into the outdoors has now been expanded into research. She became comfortable through venture scouting, determined she wanted to have a career in outdoor education. Then, as part of her educational experience, she worked at outdoor programs, and she jumped at the opportunity to research children's perceptions of physical activity in outdoor settings. There are many paths into becoming comfortable in the outdoors.
Becki Battista
Check out this episode’s notes page for resources on App States, outdoor programs, employment opportunities and venture scouting. We want to thank Mary for her willingness to share her podcast and a little bit about her journey. The Appalachian Atrocity Podcast was created by Melissa Weddell, Becky Battista and Joy James. We want to thank our podcast producer Dave Blanks from App State University Communications.
Becki Battista
We leave you with the following quote from John Muir. “In every walk with nature, one receives far more than he seeks.”