The Future Of Human-AI Coexistence, According To Kevin Kelly (co-founder Of Wired, Futurist, Author) Azeem Azhar's Exponential View podcast

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

43:08

"But it makes a lot of sense especially when you think about how traditional healers and shamans have worked, they haven't felt that separation from nature like Western medics do. And so to rely on the knowledge of other species actually makes a lot of sense. It's probably a lot more than we know at the moment." - Jaap de Roode Jaap de Roode is a biology professor at Emory University, and he is the author of an astonishing new book called Doctors by Nature How Ants, Apes, and Other Animals Heal Themselves . I say astonishing because I had no idea about so much of what he explores in his book. It never occured to me to consider that other species use medicine and have been healing themselves forever. Jaap tells stories of animals across nature, from bumblebees to chimpanzees, how they use plants and natural substances to treat infections, to ward off parasites, to self-medicate. There's so much that we have learned from them, and there's so much more that we still can.…

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The future of Human-AI coexistence, according to Kevin Kelly (co-founder of Wired, futurist, author)

13 days ago 44:33

MP3•Episode home

In this episode, you’ll hear:

Why declining populations will radically reshape economies
What a bot-to-bot economy could look and feel like
Why people of the future might be paid to read emails
How AI could help humanity find deeper purpose
Why this future might be closer than you think

Kevin’s links:

Website/blog: https://kk.org/

Twitter/X: https://x.com/kevin2kelly

Instagram: / kevin2kelly

Azeem's links:

Substack: https://www.exponentialview.co/

Website: https://www.azeemazhar.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/azhar?ori...

Twitter/X: https://x.com/azeem

Timestamps:

(00:00) Intro

(02:17) The baby black hole behind Kevin's theory

(10:49) Kevin's thesis: The handoff to bots

(15:05) This world is closer than we think

(19:32) The role of humans in this new world

(21:23) Could monopoly influence pose a problem?

(28:33) The nature of “struggle” in this new world

(32:42) Could we see countries competing for population?

(36:06) How a scarcity of humans might change what we value

(42:30) What would 1994 Kevin think of 2025 Kevin's blog?

Production:

Production by supermix.io

186 episodes

The future of Human-AI coexistence, according to Kevin Kelly (co-founder of Wired, futurist, author)

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

432 subscribers

published 13 days ago

MP3•Episode home

In this episode, you’ll hear:

Why declining populations will radically reshape economies
What a bot-to-bot economy could look and feel like
Why people of the future might be paid to read emails
How AI could help humanity find deeper purpose
Why this future might be closer than you think

Kevin’s links:

Website/blog: https://kk.org/

Twitter/X: https://x.com/kevin2kelly

Instagram: / kevin2kelly

Azeem's links:

Substack: https://www.exponentialview.co/

Website: https://www.azeemazhar.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/azhar?ori...

Twitter/X: https://x.com/azeem

Timestamps:

(00:00) Intro

(02:17) The baby black hole behind Kevin's theory

(10:49) Kevin's thesis: The handoff to bots

(15:05) This world is closer than we think

(19:32) The role of humans in this new world

(21:23) Could monopoly influence pose a problem?

(28:33) The nature of “struggle” in this new world

(32:42) Could we see countries competing for population?

(36:06) How a scarcity of humans might change what we value

(42:30) What would 1994 Kevin think of 2025 Kevin's blog?

Production:

Production by supermix.io

186 episodes

All episodes

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

1
The future of Human-AI coexistence, according to Kevin Kelly (co-founder of Wired, futurist, author) 44:33

13 days ago44:33

44:33

Kevin Kelly is a co-founder of Wired Magazine and a renowned author and futurist. Decades ago, Kevin predicted much of today's technological and cultural landscape. In this discussion, he presents his new bold vision for what’s coming next: The Handoff to Bots. In this episode, you’ll hear: Why declining populations will radically reshape economies What a bot-to-bot economy could look and feel like Why people of the future might be paid to read emails How AI could help humanity find deeper purpose Why this future might be closer than you think Kevin’s links: Website/blog: https://kk.org/ Twitter/X: https://x.com/kevin2kelly Instagram: / kevin2kelly Azeem's links: Substack: https://www.exponentialview.co/ Website: https://www.azeemazhar.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/azhar?ori... Twitter/X: https://x.com/azeem Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (02:17) The baby black hole behind Kevin's theory (10:49) Kevin's thesis: The handoff to bots (15:05) This world is closer than we think (19:32) The role of humans in this new world (21:23) Could monopoly influence pose a problem? (28:33) The nature of “struggle” in this new world (32:42) Could we see countries competing for population? (36:06) How a scarcity of humans might change what we value (42:30) What would 1994 Kevin think of 2025 Kevin's blog? Production: Production by supermix.io…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

1
AI in 2025 – A global perspective, with Kai-Fu Lee 50:23

13 weeks ago50:23

50:23

Kai-Fu Lee joins me to discuss AI in 2025. Kai-Fu is a storied AI researcher, investor, inventor and entrepreneur based in Taiwan. As one of the leading AI experts based in Asia, I wanted to get his take on this particular market. Key insights: Kai-Fu noted that unlike the singular “ChatGPT moment” that stunned Western audiences, the Chinese market encountered generative AI in a more “incremental and distributed” fashion. A particularly fascinating shift is how Chinese enterprises are adopting generative AI. Without the entrenched SaaS layers common in the US, Chinese companies are “rolling their own” solutions. This deep integration might be tougher and messier, but it encourages thorough, domain-specific implementations. We reflected on a structural shift in how we think about productivity software. With AI “conceptualizing” the document and the user providing strategic nudges, it’s akin to reversing the traditional creative process. We’re moving from a training-centric world to an inference-centric one. Models need to be cheaper, faster and less resource-intensive to run, not just to train. For instance, his team at ZeroOne.ai managed to train a top-tier model on “just” 2,000 H100 GPUs and bring inference costs down to 10 cents per million tokens—a fraction of GPT-4’s early costs. In 2025, Kai-Fu predicts, we’ll see fewer “demos” and more “AI-first” applications deploying text, image and video generation tools into real-world workflows. Connect with us: Exponential View…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

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AI in 2025 – The great normalisation, with Nathan Benaich 46:11

14 weeks ago46:11

46:11

Nathan Benaich, Founder and General Partner of Air Street Capital, joins me to discuss AI in 2025. From runaway consumer adoption to evolving enterprise moats, from still-elusive AI-driven drug breakthroughs to the renewed vigour in robotics, several core themes stood out. 1. Frontier models & AI at scale In 2024, we witnessed the astonishing growth of frontier models and their deployment on a massive scale. OpenAI’s GPT-4 and GPT-4 o1, Anthropic’s Claude and Google’s Gemini have all demonstrated that being “at the frontier” is increasingly the price of admission. 2. Consumers, voice and infinite worlds On the consumer side, we have reason to believe 2025 will be the year of AI-enabled workflows that feel truly natural. Voice, multimodality and integration into daily routines—like transcribing my morning thoughts during a commute—are becoming routine. 3. Accelerating science & drug discovery While AI accelerates lab automation and data analysis—improving reproducibility and speeding up processes—the promised “AI-designed blockbuster drug” is still in the pipeline. Clinical timelines and regulatory hurdles do not compress easily. 4. Geopolitics, funding and the sovereign question As training costs skyrocket and models require unimaginable scale, questions mount… Who funds these massive compute requirements? Will nation-states view these labs as strategic assets, akin to telecoms or chipmakers? 5. From explosive capability gains to refined utility We’ve grown numb to what was once astonishing—perfect speech synthesis, infinite text generation, zero-shot coding. The capabilities of models now surpass human levels in many benchmarks. The next major shifts may be subtler, or simply less obviously spectacular. Connect with us: Exponential View Nathan Benaich…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

1
AI in 2025 – Infrastructure, investment & bottlenecks with Dylan Patel 51:13

14 weeks ago51:13

51:13

Dylan Patel, founder of SemiAnalysis and one of my go-to experts on semiconductors and data center infrastructure joins me to discuss AI in 2025. Several key themes emerged about where AI might be headed in 2025: 1/ Big Tech’s accelerating CapEx and market adjustments The hyperscalers are racing ahead in capital expenditure, with Microsoft’s annual outlay likely to surpass $80 billion (up from around $15 billion just five years ago). By mid-decade, total annual investments in AI-driven data centers could climb from around $150–200 billion today to $400–500 billion. While these expansions power more advanced models and services, such rapid spending raises questions for investors. Are shareholders ready for ongoing, multi-fold increases in data center build-outs? 2/ The competitive landscape and new infrastructure players The expected explosion in AI workloads is drawing in a wave of new specialized GPU cloud providers—names like CoreWeave, Niveus, Crusoe—each gunning to become the next vital utility layer of AI compute. Unlike the hyperscalers, these players tap different pools of capital, including real-estate-like finance and private credit, enabling them to ramp up aggressively. This dynamic threatens the established order and could squeeze margins as competition heats up. The market is starting to understand that. 3/ The semiconductor supply chain isn’t the only bottleneck We often talk about GPU shortages, but the real sticking point is broader infrastructural complexity. Yes, Nvidia and TSMC can ramp up chip supply. But even if you have enough high-end silicon, you still need power infrastructure and grid connectivity. Building multi-gigawatt data centers in the US—each the size of a utility-scale power plant—is now firmly on the agenda. In some states, data centers already consume 30% of the grid’s electricity. By 2027, AI data centers alone could account for 10% or more of total US electricity consumption, straining America’s aging infrastructure. 4/ Commoditization of models and margin pressure A year ago, advanced language models were scarce and expensive. Today, open-source variants like Llama 3.1 are driving commoditization at speed, slicing away the profit margins of plain-vanilla model-serving. If your model doesn’t outperform the best open source, you’re forced to compete on price—and that’s a race to the bottom. Currently, only a handful of players (OpenAI and Anthropic among them) enjoy meaningful margins. As models proliferate, value will increasingly flow to those offering distinctive tools, integrating closely into enterprise workflows and locking in switching costs. 5/ Into 2025: exponential curves and new market norms Despite these challenges—soaring costs, stalled infrastructure build-outs, margin erosion—Dylan is confident that exponential scaling will continue. The sector’s appetite for GPUs, specialized chips and next-gen data centers appears insatiable. We could easily see record-breaking fundraising rounds north of $10 billion for private AI ventures—funded by sovereign wealth funds and other capital pools that have barely scratched the surface of their capacity to invest in AI infrastructure. There’s also a very tangible productivity angle. AI coding assistants continue to reduce the cost of software development. Some software companies could be looking at 20–30% staff reductions in these technical teams as high-level coding becomes automated. This shift, still in its early days, will have profound downstream effects on the entire software ecosystem. Find us: Exponential View SemiAnalysis…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

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Exponential Growth: Why AI, Solar & Batteries Will Keep Getting Cheaper | Exponential View & Cleaning Up Podcast 1:10:29

18 weeks ago1:10:29

1:10:29

As we race towards a future powered by AI and data centres, how will the insatiable demand for energy impact the environment? With the richest companies ploughing billions into energy generation, might there be some unexpected upsides for the climate transition? And can exponential technologies address the climate crisis on a finite planet? Cleaning Up host Michael Liebreich sits down with Azeem Azhar, founder of Exponential View, to explore the complex relationship between exponential growth, climate change, and the societal implications of transformative technologies. Michael and Azeem delve into the promises and pitfalls of a future shaped by the rapid advancements in renewable energy, battery storage, and artificial intelligence. This podcast was originally published on Cleaning Up .…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

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The Science of Making Truthful AI 43:47

1 year ago43:47

43:47

Artificial Intelligence is on every business leader’s agenda. How do we make sense of the fast-moving new developments in AI over the past year? Azeem Azhar returns to bring clarity to leaders who face a complicated information landscape. This week, Azeem speaks with Richard Socher , CEO and founder of You.com, an AI chatbot search engine at the forefront of truthful and verifiable AI. They explore approaches to building AI systems that are both truthful and verifiable. The conversation sheds light on the critical breakthroughs in AI, the technical challenges of ensuring AI’s reliability, and Socher’s vision for the future of search. They also discuss: How AI’s future is tied to advancements in natural language processing. The role of scientific rigor in large language models’ current and future developments. The founding of You.com and its mission to revolutionize search. Predictions for the next big breakthroughs in AI. @azeem @RichardSocher Further resources: Why AI is humanity’s mirror — and what we can learn from it (Richard Socher, TED, 2023) The Promise of AI with Fei-Fei Li (Azeem Azhar, Exponential View, 2020) AI is the real web3 (Azeem Azhar, Exponential View, 2023)…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

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Azeem’s 2024 Trends: AI, Energy, and Decentralization 20:52

1 year ago20:52

20:52

As 2024 begins, leaders are facing increasing uncertainty and a host of difficult decisions. Azeem Azhar returns to bring clarity amid a complicated information landscape, with his analysis of 12 core themes that will shape the year ahead, including AI adoption, geopolitics, decentralization, the energy transition, and more. The discussion specifically touches on: What will drive widespread corporate adoption of AI. How to think about the emergence of new business models around AI. What you need to know about the new wave of decentralization technologies. How leaders should think about an electrified world of stable and declining power prices. @azeem Further resources: The Horizon for 2024: The Biggest Questions on the Horizon (Azeem Azhar, 2024) Notes from a Ski Resort, 2024 Edition (Azeem Azhar, 2024)…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

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The Challenges and Benefits of Generative AI in Health Care 35:18

1 year ago35:18

35:18

Artificial Intelligence is on every business leader’s agenda. How do we make sense of the fast-moving new developments in AI over the past year? Azeem Azhar returns to bring clarity to leaders who face a complicated information landscape. Generative AI has a lot to offer health care professionals and medical scientists. This week, Azeem speaks with renowned cardiologist, scientist, and author Eric Topol about the change he’s observed among his colleagues in the last two years, as generative AI developments have accelerated in medicine. They discuss: The challenges and benefits of AI in health care. The pros and cons of different open-source and closed-source models for health care use. The medical technology that has been even more transformative than AI in the past year. @azeem @erictopol Further resources: When AI Meets Medicine (Exponential View Podcast, 2019) Can AI Catch What Doctors Miss? (Eric Topol, TED, 2023)…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

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Managing AI’s Carbon Footprint 34:04

1 year ago34:04

34:04

Artificial Intelligence is on every business leader’s agenda. How do we make sense of the fast-moving new developments in AI over the past year? Azeem Azhar returns to bring clarity to leaders who face a complicated information landscape. This week, Azeem joins Sasha Luccioni , an AI researcher and climate lead at Hugging Face, to shed light on the environmental footprint and other immediate impacts of AI, and how they compare to more long-term challenges. They cover: The energy consumption and carbon impact of AI models — and how researchers have gone about measuring it. The tangible economic and social impacts of AI, and how focusing on existential risks now hurt our chances of addressing the immediate risks of AI deployment. How regulation and governance could evolve to address the most pressing questions of the industry. @azeem @SashaMTL Further resources: Power Hungry Processing: Watt’s Driving the Cost of AI Deployment (Alexandra Sasha Luccioni et al, 2023) The Open-Source Future of Artificial Intelligence (Exponential View, 2023) AI is Dangerous, But Not For the Reasons You Think (TED, Sasha Luccioni, 2023)…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

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AI Takes the Wheel: New Advances in Autonomous Driving 32:37

1 year ago32:37

32:37

Artificial Intelligence is on every business leader’s agenda. How do we make sense of the fast-moving new developments in AI over the past year? Azeem Azhar returns to bring clarity to leaders who face a complicated information landscape. This week, Azeem joins Alex Kendall , co-founder and CEO of autonomous driving start-up Wayve, to uncover how the AI revolution is enabling new strides in self-driving. They delve into the implications of these advancements for urban mobility and the transformation of cities in the future. They discuss: How business models in the automotive industry are shifting towards AI integration and subscription-based services. The role “embodied AI” is playing in shaping everyday assistance, beyond just digital interactions, in the future. The challenges and breakthroughs of applying AI in complex, unpredictable environments, like road traffic. @azeem @alexgkendall Further resources: Ride the Wayve: Azeem Azhar Goes for an Autonomous Drive on London’s Toughest Roads (Wayve, 2023) UK Start-up Wayve Unveils Self-Driving System that Explains Its Actions (Financial Times, 2023)…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

1
AI Is Transforming Businesses (with Andrew Ng) 28:19

1 year ago28:19

28:19

Artificial Intelligence is on every business leader’s agenda. How do we make sense of the fast-moving new developments in AI over the past year? Azeem Azhar returns to bring clarity to leaders who face a complicated information landscape. Organizations across the world have been grappling with the opportunities and challenges of generative AI. This week, Azeem joins AI pioneer and entrepreneur Andrew Ng to discuss the intricacies of this moment and debate whether we’re at an inflection point in the AI revolution. They consider: What have organizations learned about AI, and what common mistakes have they made implementing it? What does it mean to be at an inflection point in the AI revolution? How can regulation support the development of AI? @azeem @AndrewYNg Further resources: Andrew Ng: How to Be an Innovator (MIT Technology Review, 2023) An Update on the Latest Research on Generative AI and Work (Exponential View, 2023) Creating an AI-First Business, with Andrew Ng (Exponential View Podcast, 2019)…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

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A.I. Is Driving an Information Revolution 33:26

1 year ago33:26

33:26

Artificial Intelligence is on every business leader’s agenda. How do we make sense of the fast-moving new developments in AI over the past year? In new episodes released throughout December and January, Azeem Azhar returns to bring clarity to leaders who face a complicated information landscape. This week, Azeem speaks with Aravind Srinivas , the co-founder and CEO of Perplexity.ai, about the looming challenges in AI research and product development, such as user-centric design and the importance of open-source models. They discuss: AI as a tool for democratizing information access. The “innovator’s dilemma” for Google Search. Whether or not conversational interfaces will become the norm for how we interact with AI. The array of interests shaping the AI regulation debate. @azeem @AravSrinivas Further resources: How Perplexity.ai Is Pioneering The Future Of Search (Forbes, 2023) AI’s First Flight: An Early Milestone in Generalised Intelligence? (Exponential View, 2023)…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

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Understanding the Schism at OpenAI 45:47

1 year ago45:47

45:47

Artificial Intelligence is on every business leader’s agenda. How do we make sense of the fast-moving new developments in AI over the past year? Azeem Azhar returns to bring clarity to leaders who face a complicated information landscape. In new episodes released throughout December and January, Azeem and other AI experts will address questions like: What really matters when it comes to AI? How do you ensure the AI systems you deploy are harmless and trustworthy? How can we find the signal amidst so much noise? The upheaval at OpenAI sent shockwaves through the tech world. Karen Hao , a contributing writer who covers AI at The Atlantic, joins Azeem Azhar to break down the ideologies and power struggles within OpenAI and their implications for the development of artificial intelligence. She also explains how these internal conflicts reflect broader challenges in AI development and governance. They discuss: The ideological schism within OpenAI and the deep-rooted divides that have influenced the organization’s approach to AI safety and development. How OpenAI’s mission and its execution reflect broader power dynamics in the tech industry. The potential impact of this event on the future of AI and regulatory considerations. @azeem @_karenhao Further resources: Inside the Chaos at OpenAI (The Atlantic, 2023) Sam Altman and the Board of Secrets (Exponential View, 2023)…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

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Azeem’s Picks: The Promise of AI with Fei-Fei Li 36:07

1 year ago36:07

36:07

Artificial Intelligence (AI) is on every business leader’s agenda. How do you ensure the AI systems you deploy are harmless and trustworthy? This month, Azeem picks some of his favorite conversations with leading AI safety experts to help you break through the noise. Today’s pick is Azeem’s 2020 conversation with the pioneering AI scientist Fei-Fei Li , professor of computer science at Stanford University and the founding co-director of Stanford’s Human-Centered AI Institute. They discuss: How Fei-Fei Li’s work on computer vision led to the transformation of AI development. Why we should rethink human and machine value systems. How the road to artificial general intelligence (AGI) could help us learn more about human cognition.…

Azeem Azhar's Exponential View

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Azeem’s Picks: Grading AI’s Hits and Misses 47:57

1 year ago47:57