Looking Up - Accessing the Night Sky with Kevin Schindler

Behind the Scenery

Kevin Schindler has a career in astronomy spanning nearly thirty years in the Northern Arizona area. Listen in on this episode of Behind the Scenery, where Kevin divulges his atypical career journey, some of his favorite moments and biggest inspirations, debunks misconceptions about accessing the night sky, and offers advice for success in night sky viewing. Just look up! Learn more about Kevin's work at lowell.edu.

---

TRANSCRIPT:

---

Dave: Hey, this is Dave. Elle: And this is Elle. Dave: We sat down with Kevin Schindler, the Public Information Officer and historian at Lowell Observatory, to chat about his time as an astronomer residence and to learn more about the night sky. Elle: While Dave had the chance to sit down with him in person. I phoned in from the North Rim. Please forgive our audio quality. We tried. Dave: In this episode, we'll be taking Kevin’s advice and looking up at the night sky. To learn more about it. Kevin: My name is Kevin Schindler, and I'm the historian and Public Information Officer at Lowell Observatory, and I've been at Lowell for 28 years. Early on in my career, I was in the public program at Lowell, so I started as a tour guide, then ended up managing the program for a dozen years or something like that. And now I I'm the historian, and so I try to document the history, which is not just back then, but now, it's kind of for me it's not history and current, it's the heritage that we've been doing for a long time. So, the heritage of research. So, I do with that I write articles and some books, and give talks, and kind of help with planning exhibits and that sort of thing. And then for the Public Information Officer, PIO, that's the other half of what I do and that's promoting the observatory. So that's largely the media relations, and so if we have a science story or we're doing something special for our public program, or there's an unusual or interesting astronomical event, like we have eclipses coming up so and so I'll do press releases and media alerts, set up interviews with our staff, host tours with media personnel so that people from around the world coming like to check out Northern Arizona, they'll go to the Grand Canyon, to here in Flagstaff, and so we'll facilitate tours up here at the observatory promoting everything so they'll write about it and let people know. We were talking earlier and mentioned crisis management. We don't have that much here. We do have some things you would call, I don't know, emergencies in a different way or things that you know when we closed for COVID for instance we had to gather and get some information together quickly. I mean there's certainly some of that. My title is Public Information Officer, but it really focuses on the media relations and everyday activities going on that are interesting and people want to know about. Dave: For most of our visitors that come to Grand Canyon when we're giving night sky programs, I find that most people have never looked at, looked up. What's your approach for starting to teach people just the beginning steps about the night sky? Kevin: I think the first thing is just to go outside and look up. It’s as simple as that it. You know, it's so cool to look through telescopes, and you know it's a whole universe revealed when you do that, but most of us don't have access to telescopes. Or maybe you can go and visit an observatory or an astronomy club, but just looking up to me is stunning because there's so much you can see with the unaided eye or with a pair of binoculars you can see more, but there's so much you can see if you just look. I'm reminded of a Yogi Berra. “You can observe a lot by just looking,” and it's really true. And I think part of that is, that you can really notice a lot of things like the moon rising and look at that really bright dot. Go back in a couple of nights to see where it is, how it's changed position. But I think another thing for me that I'd like to tell people just starting to stargaze is, you know, go out and look up, but also, you know, think a little bit about the sky and how important it has been to human culture. Because it's so ingrained with our everyday life. And we think about time, like AM and PM are based on astronomy. The length of the day, the length of the month, the length of the year, that's based on astronomy. Finding your cardinal direction if you're lost, use astronomy, you know whether it's the sun during the day or the North Star or other stars. It is so inspiring to look up and to see a shooting star, or to see a meteor shower, or an eclipse, but also just in our everyday life. How you know from the beginning, people looked up and its astronomy, they called the oldest science, originally called astrology, before it was really a science. Just looking up at the sky and it how much it impacts our everyday life. So just going out and looking up to me is the big first step. Dave: You talked about your background earlier, so I know you studied paleontology and history. How did you get started in astronomy? That's kind of a different career move. Kevin: Yeah. So, I grew up in Ohio and I'm not sure if we ever have clear skies there. It's always cloudy, it seemed like, but I was always interested in fossils. So, I looked down. I was always looking down during the daytime. I never did anything with astronomy. I went to college for geology and paleontology, and then I when I started working at Lowell Observatory in 1995, I applied here and when I was applying, you know the guy interviewing me, who's a friend of mine, now we've known each other for years, he said, “What do you know about the night sky and how many constellations can you identify?” I said “none, but I I'll sure be glad to learn.” And so, I think that's something that I found is sort of beneficial for me at least, when I'm talking to people about the night sky is that it hasn't been a passion all my life. I found it later on, and I really love it. I haven't studied all my life and used all the lingo. I kind of talk about astronomy in the same language that everyday people do. And so, I never have to worry much about talking as it were, over somebody's head, or using lingo that doesn't make sense because I'm conscious of that. And so, I try to explain it. I just started kind of by accident. You know, there's an opening at this place called Lowell Observatory, they do science, they have history, they do outreach. I love all that. So, I mean, it could have been an arboretum, or it could have been a number of things, but it was an observatory. And I've, you know, been doing it for a while now. And so, like now I just you know, I just love it. It's funny if you, if you, I always think of it, life is kind of like one of those mazes you do. You know, you start out, you know you're trying to go from one point to the end, and you go have all these different possible ways of going. And if you start at the start, you might have a couple you're not quite sure where the path is taking you, but if you start at the end and go backwards, it's pretty obvious how to do it, and I think that's probably all of us to some degree. I mean, some people certainly have their life planned out, but so many of us, one turn takes you in a different direction and for me looking back, I can see how I got here, but I sure as heck would never have been able to predict that when I was young. Elle: Can you tell us about the first time that you ever got to view like a deep sky object or a planet or something like that? Kevin: When I started here at Lowell Observatory in 1995, and I actually don't remember the first thing I looked at because we had a couple of things that, it was either Jupiter or Saturn, I think it was both. They were both up in the sky. But it was it was neat because we when I started here, we didn't have all these smaller portable telescopes. We had a big 24-inch diameter, 32-foot-long telescopes, the historic one that still people can look at today, and so just being inside of that room with the red glow of lights, looking through this 32-foot-long behemoth and looking at Jupiter and Saturn, I think it was both. But anyways, it was it was just, just stunning and you know, what stood out to me was again that I was I able to look and see these things up close but it was also almost as stunning that they were so small. Because I didn't have the background in astronomy, most of my connection with astronomy was seeing the cover of National Geographic or things like that that had these spectacular images that were taken by spacecraft that have flown out there. And so that's what I expected to see. And so when I looked through telescopes like, that's really cool, but it sure is small. But again, that's something that has stuck with me to explain to visitors, you know it's not going to be like the cover of a magazine with a processed image that's been blown up and from a spacecraft out there. But imagine what you're doing is you're looking at lights that, you know, if it's the moon, it's light, that start traveling to us half a second ago, and look at the details you can see. And again, I think because of my different background has served me well because I wasn't a hardcore astronomy nerd in the beginning. And so, I just feel like somebody that picked it up as a hobby, except I get paid for it, which is really nice. Elle: What do you think would be the biggest hurdle to accessing the night sky as a layperson, or as somebody who doesn't have a telescope and things like that? And how would you suggest overcoming that hurdle? Kevin: I think the biggest hurdle is finding clear sky or dark sky. 80% of the world can't see the Milky Way Galaxy. They live in a place where you can't see the Milky Way. 80%. So. I mean, that means, you know, 80% of the world lives in populated areas where there's artificial light pollution. I think that's probably the biggest hurdle. I mean, again, it's, it's great to look through telescopes and binoculars and a lot of people just can't afford those. Or are we going to spend money on that when we're trying to put food on the table? And can we afford that? You know, in that case you can find astronomy clubs or go to a place like Lowell Observatory, or the Grand Canyon during the Grand Canyon Star Party, or weekends when or whenever when Grand Canyon does programs. There's different options of even going and especially looking through telescopes, but in general, just finding dark sky and looking up, that's the biggest hurdle. Dave: Actually, talking about this, I was talking about this with fellow rangers, and I was like you, know when I grew up, I grew up right outside New York City. I could see about four stars. Kevin: Yeah, on a good night. Yeah. Dave: And we had one Ranger who we realized has lived in a dark Sky area her entire life growing up. And I was like, you might be the only person in your office that can see the Milky Way the whole time you've grown up. Kevin: Yeah, it's just not that you know percentage wise not that many people are able to see it. And I think that's to me one of the most fascinating, satisfying things is visitors at Lowell Observatory, at the Grand Canyon that are looking up to the sky. And I love this this comment that I've heard over and over, “I thought it was supposed to be clear tonight. Why is that cloud going through there?” That's the center of the Milky Way, and people are just stunned. I mean, I've seen people cry because they've never seen it and. And there's something about seeing that and having that kind of dark sky, that makes you really connected to the to the night sky and the universe around you. We're so in tune with, I mean, we live in this world where we stare at our phones so much and the computer screens and all the technology, which technology is great, but to be able to get away and reconnect with nature in universe, whether it's hiking down a trail at the Grand Canyon or looking up at the night sky, it really it's, it's part of what makes us human: that desire to explore and be inspired around us. And sometimes with all the noise and the lights, and distraction, we lose sight of that. But to be able to, you know, go camping and lay back in your chair and look up - it's just an exhilarating experience. Dave: I'm really curious, like, especially as someone who's still starting to look up at the sky myself, what's your favorite thing or favorite object to look at in the night sky? Kevin: This might sound a little boring, but my favorite thing is the moon because of the history around it, the human and cultural history, because it it's our closest celestial neighbor. And so, from the time humans started talking and communicating ideas, they were telling stories about the moon and part of the creation process for them. Or, you know, the moon is, is such an important part of our lives, from time keeping to the cycles and so on. And then the fact that it's the only world where humans have walked and I'm a big Apollo Astronomy fan and so for me, that's my favorite thing because to be able to zoom in and say I love doing this with visitors, I mean, you can't through the best telescopes on Earth, you can't see the flags or the footprints or that sort of thing. But you can point out the general area and to say that's, you know, that's where Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin first set foot in 1969, and for people that were around then, that's one of those Kodak moments that they, you know, it's frozen in their memory exactly where they were when that happened. You know, in more modern times, more often than not, it seems to be like tragic things, like 9/11 or the Challenger disaster or whatever. But you know, human species walking on another world was such an achievement, and the fact that we had TV up there and people could watch it was spectacular. So, the moon for me, I mean there are certainly so many spectacular objects, but the moon is my favorite because it's fun to look at the analogs, things like we have on Earth, you know, like ridges, and where lava tubes are. We have lava tubes up in Northern Arizona, they're on the moon. And looking at craters and comparing those to like Meteor Crater or canyons, you know, like the Grand Canyon. It has it all, plus it has that human history. So that's my favorite thing. Dave: I never thought about canyons on the moon. I know there's one in Mars. Kevin: Yeah, the Mars one. I mean, it makes our Grand Canyon seem puny, cause that the one on Mars, essentially the distance is across the entire United States. But on the moon, it has it not to that scale or anything, but it's got ridges and mountains and canyons and stuff that are, you can see a lot of comparison. Elle: Can you tell us about your favorite night sky experience that you've had? Kevin: Oh gosh, I mean, there's so many. Sharing views through the telescope, or even with laser pointing at stars and constellations, is spectacular to me. When I used to work in a public program here, that was my favorite thing because you know, you sometimes there would be like grandparents and the grandkids. And they're both looking through telescope for the first time together and connecting the generations and the oohs and ahs, that's my favorite general thing, I think, to just, you know, exposing the night sky and to see stuff they never saw before. In terms of a specific one, gosh, I don't know that there's just been so many, like viewing through telescopes with the First Lady of the United States, and with a couple of astronauts, and with other with people like that, that was just neat to share what we do at Lowell Observatory, there are some singular moments like that. But overall, just getting outside and pointing out stuff is what I find most fun. Dave: And I'm curious about this, too. I mentioned a little bit about like me as a kid looking up, but as a young kid, did you ever imagine a dream you'd be doing this job or having these experiences or looking up at the sky all the time? Kevin: Absolutely not. I mean, I was interested in in rocks and fossils, and I had a teacher in high school, my favorite teacher, he was very inspirational. I applied to the school where he went, it's the only school I applied to because I wanted to go where he went, and he had studied geology. And so, you know, somewhere along the way as I got to high school. Well, I don't know if I go back a little bit, like I fell in love with fossils when I was in that golden age of seven or eight. I think that's when so many people find their passion. And I was out collecting blackberries, and the woods behind my farmland in Ohio, and found this rock that have all these little shell things in it. And then I looked down and found another piece, and they fit together, they had split apart. I took it home, my dad shellacked it, and then I did some studying, this is before the Internet, but I found the book and found these things are called brachiopods, you know, evidence of things that lived in the ocean. And I found the rock was a couple hundred million years old. And so, I just found that was fascinating, so I fell in love with it. And as I got to high school, I thought maybe I would do something with geology and paleontology. And I did that and worked in the Museum of Natural History in Florida. And there's a good chance I'd still be there because I really loved that. But I ended up moving out West and yeah, the path has just been unexpected, but I like it because the geology background really gives me a different - it makes it more integrated, like looking at astronomy. Because, you know, as we as we look at, you know, years ago, the moon and the planets, they were all being studied by astronomers. But now those are being studied by geologists because we can examine them and bring rocks back and such. So, to me that background, it makes it more interesting because it connects the two. Dave: Do you think that that's typical of someone in your, in this position, like as a historian and PIO like or do you think that it's helpful to have a different background to get into this? Kevin: I think it's helpful to have a different background. I think you know, you know, it's probably not unusual that people have different backgrounds. Like if you go into, if you want to be an astronomer, a lot of people get an undergraduate degree in physics or mathematics, especially physics, because that's such a key part of astronomy today. And so, I think a multidisciplinary background probably isn't unusual. But for me it wasn't an intended path, it just played out that way. It's like, hey, this sounds cool, I want to do that, and then it's grown. Elle: What advice would you give to someone who is astronomy curious, but is afraid to get into it, or maybe doesn't think that they have the background, you know, kind of like you're saying now? Kevin: I think a big thing is to talk to somebody in the field, like to go to an observatory like Lowell or to, a real easy thing is to go to an astronomy club, amateur astronomers that set up telescopes and stuff. But I think it's to talk to somebody in the field because I really believe that if you're passionate about something, you can make a career out of it. You might not make as much money studying astronomy as if you were on Wall Street, but if you really love it enough - why not do that? You can make it work. And you know there's different ways of being in astronomy. You can be a research astronomer in which typically you'll go to college and get your PhD and such, but you could do astronomy education where you have a passion for it, maybe you don't have a PhD, but you still have an amazing knowledge of the night sky. You could be a science writer, that you have this interest in science, but you also like to write. That could turn you into a historian also you like, you know the history of scientific exploration. So, there's different ways of going into whether it's astronomy or geology. Like if you love geology, you could be a ranger at the Grand Canyon National Park. You have one of the most spectacular geology laboratories in your backyard and you get paid to talk about it every day, that's not a bad gig. Do what you love and get paid for it. And so, I think it, you know, talking to people in the field, and I think what you said, you know, astronomy is one of those things that can sound intimidating. I don't know how many times I've heard people say I would have, I was going to go into that, but the math killed me. But there are other things you can do. I mean, my degree is in geology, I work in an observatory, I've been here 28 years, I haven’t got a pink slip yet. And I do history, I do public information, I did the education program for years, if you like it, you can find a way. Elle: Yeah, I get what you're saying. I know, for me personally, I majored in Writing in College and now I'm a park Ranger, and a lot of people are really surprised by that, that I didn't major in Forestry or, you know, Conservation Ecology or anything like that. Kevin: Right, But that's okay. I mean sometimes, it you know it's a very definite path, but there are so many other things you can do in a field. And you still write probably in some capacity or another, right? Elle: Yeah, I do. Kevin: And the skills you learned, I mean, writing is one of those skills that even if it's not writing a novel, it's skills you get that is going to benefit you in whatever you do. Elle: Absolutely. And as a writer myself, I'm curious to know if there's a story that you've ever heard that's changed your life, whether or not it's related to astronomy. Kevin: Well, to some degree, yes. I mean like, working here at Lowell Observatory and studying like our founder Percival Lowell really changed my thinking on things because he was looking for life in the universe. That's why he started the observatory. So, to me, it kind of connects my interest in paleontology with astronomy. I think Clyde Tombaugh was another one that I learned about, and I think to me is a very inspiring character because he was self-taught. Just what I was talking about, he didn't have the money to go to school, and so he did astronomy on his own sense and drawings off to see what the professionals thought. And it led to him getting a job. So, he was really passionate about it. And oh, by the way, a year later, he discovered a planet. You never know where your path is going to take you. But I think his story is really, you know, learning that story is really inspiring because it's a great case of, you know, the little boy who did, the little train that could. You know, he didn't have the resources, but he made it happen. He didn't have the money, but he had the passion. I think his story to me is really inspiring. And I mean something else that, you know, when I learned more about the astronauts, and going to the moon. I mean, you know, I certainly was familiar with the astronauts going to the moon, but being out here, you know, the Grand Canyon where they trained and the Lowell Observatory where some trained. Northern Arizona was just such a hotbed for the training. And again, combining the geology with the astronomy. When I really got into that, it really changed things because I, you know, had done the book about that, and really enjoyed talking about that. And that's one of the things that really got me connected to the Grand Canyon and doing the residency because that interest in the human exploration of the moon. And then the fact that we're going back, and astronauts are going to some of the same places in Northern Arizona for their training. Again, for me, I like history for the sake of what happened, but also seeing it as the foundation of what's happening today. And so, whether it's the Grand Canyon, or Lowell Observatory, or astronomy in general, or geology, it's, you know, it's the stuff that's been going on for a long time. And Pluto was discovered in 1930, but that was kind of the beginning phase of our studying another planet and it's still so much up for debate. Is Pluto planet or not? Of course, is a big debate question. But it inspires us to explore more and learn more. Dave: I think the story that I like is that he's just not a classically trained astronomer that discovers a planet, and I found that story just so interesting because that that's all people I'm surrounded with are not trained astronomers. Kevin: Right. And it's another example of somebody who got into the field that he liked, and maybe not on a traditional route. And after he discovered Pluto, he got a free ride to go to college, you know, discovered a planet, you know, you get pretty well known. But, but that's a certainly a non-traditional route, but again an example like I was saying before of if you're passionate about something, you're going to find a way to get into that field and make a living. And I really think that's the case. If you're passionate enough about something, you make it happen. Another thing with Pluto is there are so many angles to it that are so unlikely. Like, that you know, Clyde Tombaugh himself, the self-trained guy who he had the attention to detail and the work ethic to follow this this plan and find a planet. The idea that Percival Lowell’s research predicted the existence of this planet, and Clyde Tombaugh found a planet very close to where Percival thought it should be. But now we know today that Clyde Tombaugh didn't find the planet that Lowell thought was there, he just happened to find something. Because Lowell thought there was a much larger planet whose gravity was pulling on the Earth and Neptune. Pluto is a lot smaller. It doesn't cause those regular motions like they thought were happening. They just happened to find Pluto right there. It, it's just there's so many unlikely things with it. It's a great story and then it continues in 2014 or 2015 when New Horizons went by, and his big heart-shaped region on Pluto. I know there's a lot of personality being Pluto because especially when it got reclassified, there's a lot of people upset because, you know, that's our planet that was discovered in America and, you know, a small-town guy did that. And so, there's a lot of passion and love for Pluto, and then it's got this heart-shaped feature. And it was discovered four days after Valentine's Day. So, I don't know, there's just so many weird, fun coincidences with it. Dave: We always talk about Pluto, especially here because that has a real connection to Lowell. Kevin: Right. Dave: And you know, I think too talking about the connection with, you know Grand Canyon as a dark sky place, and Flagstaff is a Dark Sky City. Do you find that there's a relationship that this is just a naturally dark area, or is there something larger at work here to try and keep it that way? Kevin: Well, both. I mean, when Percival Lowell came out here, the reason he came to Arizona is because he got interested in astronomy and one of his, I mean he was he was trained at Harvard in mathematics. And so, but he wasn't, and he had this interest in astronomy all his life. But he had gone overseas, he worked for the family business, went overseas, and it wasn't until he's 39 that he started the observatory. But he sent an assistant out here to find a good spot because, you know Lowell lived in Boston, but realized that wasn't a good place to put an observatory, because there's a lot of artificial light, and this was before artificial light and light pollution was really a thing for astronomy, but he recognized this. That you know, he was in Boston and electric lights were becoming commonplace and they were shining. This is great, we have light we can see at night, we can extend our day as it. But there’s always something on the other side, it always balances out. We can see more at night, but it also is artificially polluting the night you know with artificial light. Lowell recognized that back east it wasn't good, because there's artificial light, and there’s also pollution from smoke from factories that that were some of his family’s factories. But he decided to go out West. He was one of the first people to really think about where to locate an Observatory, and he sent an assistant out to Arizona territory, this is 18 years before Arizona State in 1894. And he went, his name was Andrew Douglas, and he went to Tombstone, Tucson, Tempe, Prescott, and ended up in Flagstaff and the skies were just brilliant. In fact, at that time Flagstaff was nicknamed the Skylight City because the brilliance of the stars against the night sky. Just coincidence, well, kind of coincidence. It was a dark place, and so they set up shop here. And then in the late 50s, the observatory acquired a new big telescope, and they were trying to figure out where exactly to put it and realized that they wouldn't put it right on site to traditional Lowell Observatory because Flagstaff had grown and there were now lights, you know, shining up here, they decided to put it outside of town about a dozen miles. But there are some searchlights that occasionally shined up, and so one of our retired astronomers, who, by the way, had been mayor of Flagstaff at one time, he still had connections with the with the city leadership and he said, “Can you guys write some sort of ordinance that limits the use of that artificial light, just so the astronomers at certain times, they can go out and see the night sky and they won't have these search lights?” And so, they created this ordinance in 1958, and that was the world's first artificial light ordinance anywhere, right here in Northern Arizona. And since then, the community and Coconino County have updated and created other ordinances to protect the night skies. And in fact, Northern Arizona is a model for places around the world to do this. And of course, Grand Canyon National Park since 2019 is a dark sky park. And so, I think part of it was originally this, you know, this was a dark, dark, pristine sky. Not just dark, but, but you know higher elevation so there's less cloud cover, there's less atmosphere. Looking through you feel closer to the stars in some way, so there's that natural feel. But then it’s a community that is really scientifically tuned in to the universe around us, whether it's the rocks or the skies. And so, there's a real interest by people who live in this area to protect those resources, whether it's the rocks of the Grand Canyon or the dark skies. Dave: I'm curious, too, so we have tons of people that are like first time in Grand Canyon, first time in the area and they look up and like, oh, it's really dark here. Like, what advice would you give to someone who lives in a really bright place to take that home with them, to do something different there? Kevin: I think, I mean you know the one thing with artificial light and light pollution, you know in general it's not an attempt, you know, trying to keep the skies dark. It's not an attempt to get rid of artificial light, it's just to use it more appropriately. I mean you don't need to shine lights up in the sky for trying to, you know, illuminate a sidewalk. And different types of lights, I mean, you can have like types of light that doesn't interfere with our dark sky viewing as much. But also, the whole dark sky movement started with astronomy, but now scientists have shown that it negatively impacts life. It throws light, you know, night life off its cycles, animals think it's daytime in some cases. And so, there's obviously some negative impact to it. But I think, you know, for those people who live in a bright area, come here, view our dark and go home. One is to, you know, go out and try to find those dark places and view it, but also, you know, we can all do our part. You can use properly shielded lights in your backyard. Instead of, you know, they're different types of lighting you can use, so we can all do that our own ourselves and improve it a little bit. Plus, in the long run, quite often you can, you know, illuminate cheaper. You don't need as much lighting, for instance, in a lot of cases. And so, in some cases, you know, people will go back and start a movement, a grassroots movement to try to keep the skies dark. Or like in Grand Canyon National Park where Raider Lane worked with a lot of people, I know to change the lighting out. To have the park designated as the Dark Skies Park required adjusting the lighting what was used, how it was used and such. But that really made a huge difference. You go to the Grand Canyon and it’s even more stunning at night. There just isn't as much light pollution and it's, I don't think there's any evidence that it's not as safe or anything, it's just you're able to see the night sky more and it's more of a dramatic experience if that's possible. It is. It's more dramatic than it was before. Dave: We had, we went out to Tuweep, and we were like out in this really remote place, and the lone park ranger out there was like, look, you see that one light? That was the only light we had to change here. And he changed his spotlight that goes on the American flag from a white one to a red one. And was like, “that's really all we had to do.” But that was like, you know, the entire park did it all across both rims and it's a huge effort. Kevin: It was, yeah. Dave: Yeah, I know they did the final last final few structures up on North Rim as well. Our electrician went and retrofitted all those. Kevin: Yeah. And it and it hasn't changed or negatively impacted the visitor experience. It's improved it because, you know Tyler Nordgren, who was the first astronomer in residence, and he coined the phrase, “half the park is after dark.” And that's so apparent. Especially, you know, after the lighting was changed out. You know, you go, and you see the rocks during daytime and instead of just nighttime, you go and have dinner and go to bed, go outside and look at the sky. Oh my gosh, it's stunning. So, you have both the daytime and nighttime experience there. Elle: My final thought or question is what do you wish that everybody knew about the night sky? Kevin: I think what everybody should know about the night sky, I think that it's, that we can all do something to make it more accessible to everybody and we can all do our part. To you know, maybe leave those lights off or use a different kind of lighting, but so that's an important thing. But I think, I don't know, I think I still go back to the fact that it's accessible to anybody who could look up. If you can lookout or look up, it’s accessible to anybody. It's nice to look through telescopes, but you don't need that. You can be wowed by the night sky just by looking up, especially in a darker area. So, I think that that's probably the biggest thing that it's a resource for everybody. Nobody owns it. It's something available to anybody who can look up. And, you know, if you like, like my background is in fossils. You know, if you're, you know, depending on where you are, you might not have fossils around you, you have to go somewhere. Everybody has a night sky like, you know, if you can look up it's just some places that brighter than others. So what can we do about that? Dave: We gratefully acknowledge the native peoples on whose ancestral homelands we gather, as well as the diverse and vibrant native communities who make their homes here today. Thanks for joining us for another behind the Scenery Podcast episode. We'd like to thank Kevin and the whole team at Lowell Observatory located in Flagstaff, AZ, for hosting us and taking the time to chat with us. We hope to have more programming with Kevin and the rest of the crew in the future.