Episode 50 : White Leaders DEI Journey

Dear Corner Office

Michele:

Welcome, welcome everybody. This is Michele Heyward, it is absolutely great to see each and every one of you today, we are going to have a fantastic day of four hours of talking about equitable workplace, workplace creating the future of work. I am the founder of early stage tech startup called positive hire. And part of what we do is utilizing technology as well as consulting to solve workplace issues. And we want to talk about the equitable, equitable workplace. Because oftentimes, when we talk about the future of work, we’re focused on technology, and not so much. What about the people? What happens in the workplace, so that people, and how do we bring equity into the workplace. So we have a phenomenal lineup of people today, who are former HR executives, who are current employers in in workplaces, who are people, analytics consultants, behavioral scientists, even executive coaches, helping train educate on humanity side of equity in the workplace, and those who are looking at the data side and bridging the two together. So we’re having these conversations, not to inspire you. But to literally give you actionable tactics and tips you can utilize in your actual workplace, with your teams, with your co workers with other like minded people. So take the time today to join us as you can. If you’re like, Michelle, I can’t stay on for all four hours, do not worry, we have you covered. If you’ve gone over to our website, equitable workplace dot positive hire.co. Or if you just go to the positive hire Code website, you can click on the button at the top and register for the summit there. Instead of having to scroll through four hours of great interviews. We’re going to split these interviews up. So no matter what you miss, you’ll be able to access it later. Yes, we want you to access it later. So that you can come back, you can share. And you can begin as you’re walking through this entire process, you have the resources and tactics and tools to get you started and put some wind beneath your sail. That is really what we’re focused on today. Now I specifically chosen this, the speakers, because they all have done different things to bring data and HR dei into the workplace. And they all have very interesting perspectives that they’re going to share. But more importantly, they’re here to connect with you today. And to really provide you some assistance and guidance in where you are. So if you have questions, you have comments, be sure you drop them in the chat, because we truly want to hear them now. Next up, we have one of my absolute favorite people to have on the show. I met her about six years ago. And she is running this fantastic program called On the matter of race. Oh, I’m gonna do some magic. pause for a moment.
Tada, you like the way I do that? I do that. Up next we have Lynn marine hurdle. Lynne has a fantastic story of how she went from being an actress. Well, that still can happen right? To actually become a communications expert. So then come on in and join us today.

It is great to have you here Lynn and to see you again. I can’t wait till we see each other in person is better.But what can you tell the audience a bit about yourself and and, and then we’ll go from there. I want to get out I’m trying to jump over some stuff and get on it get into on the matter race. But yeah.

Lynn:

Hi, Lynn Hi, good morning or hello I’m not sure what timezone everybody’s in but Hi everyone.

Michele:

It is great to have you here Lynn and to see you again. I can’t wait till we see each other in person is better.But what can you tell the audience a bit about yourself and and, and then we’ll go from there. I want to get out I’m trying to jump over some stuff and get on it get into on the matter race. But yeah.

Lynn:

So I’ll tell you a little bit about myself that really can lead into on the matter of race. I’m a Bronx girl born and raised, my parents moved my sister and I, from the South Bronx, predominantly African American neighborhood when I was seven, and we moved into an all white neighborhood, because my parents really were concerned about education. And so 10 years later, at 17, I’m on a bus, almost home, but the buses stopped, because there is a mob of young white males with red bandanas tied on their heads with baseball bats running toward the bus, who then tried to turn over the bus because they were specifically looking for African Americans to get off the bus so that they could beat us really. And they only three of us are in there, including the bus driver. And I left that incident on, I knew that I wanted to be an actress. Like from the time I was three, but left that incident, knowing from just a voice in my head that I was supposed to do something about bringing people together around these issues. And I didn’t know where that came from. I didn’t want to do it. But when I went to school, I went to Syracuse University as a theater major, and changed my major sophomore year to nonviolent conflict and change, which is really all about conflict resolution in the way that we communicate and interact with each other. And that, really, I pursued that as a career after I got my degree and my master’s in education and creating Peaceable Schools. And so I’ve been coaching and speaking and writing, and putting together programs to help people really get along, but to also just learn how to bring themselves closer to conflict so that we can really learn about ourselves in conflict and learn how to do it better.

Michele:

That’s an absolutely terrifying yet a phoenix rising moment I, I can’t I can’t I don’t want to imagine. But I know that’s reality. And that drove you to this path. And from there, you built that career. And now you’re you’ve created a program called On the matter of race. Can you tell us a bit about the program? Yes. Another another thing I didn’t see myself doing. So I’m at a retreat with some colleagues and two white women who I had become friends with at that point, but who also were former clients, I was coaching them in conflict resolution. And they both said to me, pretty much at the same time, I really want to work with you again, have you ever thought about putting together some kind of program for white women like us, who really don’t know about racism, but one or understand it, where for the first time in our lives, we actually have friends of color? And we don’t understand when they have conversations about racism? And we want to and would you think about that, and I said, I don’t really think that’s what I want to do. Because I do that on a regular basis. It’s just that I don’t have groups that are for specifically just for white people. And in my experience, white people are resistant to really wanting to learn about racism. But the more we talk, the more I knew it was something that I was supposed to do. And so two and a half years ago, that first group started with eight people. And now I have I’m at nine, eight groups, about two, probably do nine, and two of those groups are C suite groups. Really, because one of the people that was in my first group, she’s continued on with me, and so she brought me into her company, the company that she works for her corporate space and, and I’m working in with C suite folks in that space. But it’s really about white people who are committed to understanding racism, as they’ve never understood it before. And not just learning the facts, not just learning the history, but also really going within to find out how they’ve been raised what they’ve been taught to believe what really happening for them as they’re learning and unlearning things about racism and how they’ve been able to actually uphold racism without even knowing consciously that they were doing it and also how they have consciously upheld into it as well. So as as you’re going through this journey with Well, let me back up, because you have you have this program, you didn’t think people were going to be why Kogami committed to it? What’s the process? Because I love this process you have on? Hey, it’s not like, I’m just going to take your money because you pay me. What is your process? Yes, yeah. Increase in determining who participates in your program? Yeah.

Lynn:

So that was my thing is like, I’ll do this under certain parameters. The first being that everyone has to be interviewed by me, because I really need like people who are ready to learn to understand that they are not the authority to really commit to going within and doing the work because there’s homework that has to be done his readings, his videos, there’s questions that need to be answered, real exploration. So I need to know that you’re going to really commit to doing that, because this is a six month journey, each level and there’s levels one through five, and each level is six months of meeting and working and really doing it right committing to it. So that has to be one of the things you have to be interviewed. The second thing is, how are you going to use this because we can sit and do the school thing, learn take notes and make A’s I don’t grade people. But you know, but we can do all of that. But then what do we do with that? So you come in saying, Hey, okay, I want to do this. There’s an uncle that I always wanted to talk with about racism, but I just don’t really know enough. How do I do that, or I want to bring it into my company. We’ve had people who one person who was put in the heading of di as a white woman, and she didn’t understand why Black indigenous people of color, were not happy with that. And then once she started in the program, she said, Oh, I know why they’re not happy. Because I really didn’t realize how much I didn’t know, I didn’t realize that just wanting to have a diverse company, just wanting people to get along better wasn’t going to be enough for me that I had to really understand start to understand racism and start to understand when people of color are talking, what it is that they’re talking about, and also being able to listen to them and believe them. And so those are the two things that are really important is the interview. And what’s the action that you’re going to commit to because three months into the journey? I say, Okay, now, what’s the first step you’re going to take on that action? If you haven’t already, because many people already, we’re taking action, right? But already, what’s your first step? And then you are already what’s your next step? And then for the rest of the three months, they’re able to come in talk about that get feedback, and support because it’s not easy stuff to go back out there and keep doing the action.

Michele:

That that keep doing the action is is what I’m gonna focus on in just a second. Yeah. So before the action, what are some of the reoccurring things that you found? That may be surprising as white people take this journey?

Lynn:

Yeah, well, there’s, there’s the one I think there’s one that is really a dominant factor in the white people who take this journey is that they were raised to believe that just being nice is enough that just treat people the way that you want to be treated. And and you’ll and you won’t be a racist, right and and when they find out that being nice is great. It really is but you smiling at people of color and being kind to them does nothing to dismantle racism. So I think that once they see that, that is that is difficult, because you you want to believe that you’re one of the good people and you probably are but when it comes to racism, you’re probably not because you are doing the things that continue to uphold racism. So it is beyond not even just speaking out. But one of the bigger things is believing us it. I asked them, you know, so many people came into my program after George Floyd was murdered. And it was as if that was the first thing that’s ever happened. And that it was so brutal, it opened their eyes. So when I take them back, right in history, and even just things that are currently going on, and they have to ask themselves, Well, why didn’t I believe people of color when they were talking about this? Why didn’t I believe like people when they’ve been saying this, because this isn’t new for us? We’ve been saying this for centuries, actually. Right? And so why didn’t we believe in it’s a very difficult thing for them to go back and to trace back and understand, wow, my parents who thought they were doing good, right, told me that in this country, you know, this country really does do great things for you. And so to believe that everybody has the same opportunities and the same starting line. That’s what they believed, but then to learn that that’s actually not true. I think it’s very difficult. And so what I know one person said, what she discovered was that what her parents taught her then was anybody who complains about this country, really doesn’t want to work for their right for their success. And so as we as black people, indigenous people of color, are bringing up the issues that affect our lives that seen as complaining. And so that’s for her, that’s, that was what she figured out. That’s why I don’t believe you all, when you’re, when you’re saying the things that are happening in your life, because that takes playing in my mind, anybody who complains about this country just doesn’t want to work for success.

Michele:

Absolutely. One of the common sayings is pull yourself up by your bootstraps. And I challenged people on this, especially if they’re talking about black people, because if they were enslaved in work camps in this country, oftentimes when they left, they were freed, or escaped, they were barefoot, there were no bootstraps, support yourself back off, right? And what I mean by that, not just physically, barefoot, meaning no resources. That’s right. That’s meaning people may not provide you any housing, you’re sleeping out wherever, if you can make it through and live and not get lynched. And so the experience is definitely different. When you go back generation after generation, we’ve progressed don’t get me wrong, but it’s not to the stance for which we have provided. And that is often off put on so many different levels when we look at race, especially here in the US.

Lynn:

Yeah. And the thing I also want to say about that is, it’s interesting, because this is something that’s been really bothering me this week, I believe I’m going to blog about it later today. And that is that this whole piece around diversity, what has happened again, because we’ve grown up in this white supremacist system, right? Diversity gets defined as we’re only looking for people of color, right? And that’s their only requirement. When I’m looking for qualified people of color. Who can do the job well, who’ve been left out, right, we’re looking for just if you have the black or brown face, or if diversity extends even further than that, right? If you’re LGBTQ, if you’re you have a disability that we’re just looking for that we’re not looking for people who are qualified, and there are so many, just as many qualified people out there, right to our do have a diverse background, as there are the people that continue to get the jobs, right. And that’s the thing that’s missing for me because that’s always the push back is this is about making sure you look a certain way. And it’s not about making sure that people can do their jobs. And I have to say for some companies, it isn’t about that. It is about checking off the box. But if you’re going to do it right, you have to Be Determined to find the people who are out there. And they are out there who are qualified to do the job, who are also from diverse backgrounds.

Michele:

Absolutely it. And the other thing I want to add in here, working with employers, sometimes they do want to qualify. But what I found is oftentimes black employees are doing the work. But they’re not given the title and the compensation to go with it. And I work oftentimes to help women, especially display that on LinkedIn and their resume to talk about what they accomplished, as opposed to the things they do. And so it goes both like we’re looking but they have to have the job title. And this is like, hold up, we’ve already proved we can show and prove they’re not they’re not oftentimes getting promoted. So let’s talk about what do you actually have have have had them do to get the job done, as opposed to a job title? And so it’s, it has to be? I haven’t found, I found a few.

Lynn:

Yeah, you’ve found some folks who know how to do that. But not everybody does. And the thing about my program, right, is that I’m preparing white people who are in these positions to sit at the table and actually understand the conversation that you are having with them. It isn’t something that they aren’t familiar with, it isn’t something that they find difficult to understand they know that wow, because they’ve experienced it.

Michele:

okay, so we are having some tech issues. Right now. Okay, you’re back. Okay. Okay, so I’m just gonna try my third backup item. Wi Fi, I went to heartline. I’m back on Wi Fi. Like, look,

Lynn:

y’all gonna let me do this or not. So I got a backup to the backup. Okay, well, you need to know I kept talking, I just kind of took off from your point and kept talking. So I did, I did say, you know, that we need folks. Because if people are in my program, then you have folks at the table who understand what you’re talking about, instead of it being something that just absolutely goes over their head, or they really don’t understand it, and don’t aren’t trying to understand it, right. But if you are able to experience knowledge around this and conversations, we have great conversations in this group, then you’re really working things through so that when you sit at the table, and someone is saying to you, you know, there’s more to this than just to getting people in who look different than you or think different than you. Right? There are. There’s also beyond the hiring, there is the promoting and there is the supporting of folks, then they understand not just that needs to be done. But how to do that. And that’s really important too. I love it. I absolutely love that. You that’s who you’re finding in it coming to your program. I like I like number one that the process you have, because I do we often talk about the white savior. Yeah. And that’s not what we’re looking for. That that that does not serve a personnel now. And it’s funny, because that is a place that a lot of people do come to like, wow. Like there are efforts that I want to make in my business, right. Wow, I’ve got exam and where this is coming from is this white savior? Right? Am I coming from that space? Someone of color confronted me about something that I said, right. And it really I went, I either went into tears or I pushed back then was very defensive. It was bad about white fragility. Is that what’s happening here for me? Like when you understand these concepts, right, then you can ask yourself these questions rather than continue to fall back into what was your normal behavior, right? It’s like, I don’t want to talk about this. I’m not a racist. Don’t you accuse me of being worse, rather than let me hear what they’re saying and examine whether or not Hey, did I actually get fragile there and just get defensive rather than say, I want to understand how they how this was received by that. Okay, this is this is fantastic, no matter the tech issues.

Michele:

I want to go to the work, go back to that actionable steps, the work that has to be done. And what sometimes is the pushback? And then what is some of the work that you’re seeing participants in your program actually do? Mm hmm.

Lynn:

Yeah. So, so I’ll talk about is everything from people posting on social media, just really either posting about what they’re learning about themselves, or just challenging friends who are white to really begin to look at these issues, or to say to people of color, if you are in friendships, right, with people who are white, it’d be great if you gave them information about this program, because it’s an opportunity for us to really be with each other other committed white people to have the conversation. They are, there’s someone who blogs about money and racism, right? Because the connection between that in this country is something that’s really not talked about, there are people who have conversations with family members that they’ve never been able to have conversations with before around this. And while it may not go well, at first, they keep coming back, right? Either the person does or they do and the conversations then get to a deeper place for them. There are people who are parents who desperately want to raise white allies in their children and don’t know how to do that. But because they’re in this group, we have conversations about that. We do role plays, before people even have conversations, because one of the things that I teach is, if you’re going to hammer it, folks, they are not coming for that, or at least they’re not coming to try to hear you. They’re coming to annihilate you because you’re trying to annihilate them. So how do you have the conversation and I think that’s the other thing that’s unique about my program is I’ve kept 40 years in the world and work of conflict resolution and teaching people how to communicate better with each other. So that combined with my 40 years of diversity, equity, and inclusion work really does set a different standard for how the work is done. As I said, we have people who are in corporate spaces who are bringing this into their corporations, we’ve had dancers who have looked at the world that they’re in and seeing the opportunities for white dancers, as opposed to people of color, I mean, even in the community of belly dance things, things that are not actually founded by white people, but have been white people have found success and things like that, and yoga, right? Looking at that and going, Wow, are the opportunities here really equitable? And if they are not, how do I take a stand in making sure that they are of this all different ways, I never tell people what action they should take. I just help them to take the steps that they need to take in order to fulfill those actions. Wow, thank you so much that that’s absolutely monumental. Um, how So you started this program two and a half years ago? How long have some of your participants have been there just so it’s a journey I have a full started with me two and a half years ago. Who are now we are officially, we are officially have the doors open for folks for our next journey, our next month’s journey, which starts the week of January 17. And I have folks who we have six folks who started with me, and and who are now going on to level five, right in January. But but also we have almost 100% participation and folks who are currently in one of my levels, who are then going on to the next level, because they’ve just they haven’t found anything quite like this. Right. And I know folks are doing great things out there. But what we offer is something that folks tend to really enjoy because why people don’t have these conversations on the norm we do as people of color. So to find a place where they can have them they can be safe enough to have them without being led by a woman of color. And who is very direct but also I teach with love but I I’m not going to let you off the hook right and to be able to exactly In yourself with other white people who are doing the same thing, and have the hard conversations, it really, I think it fulfills something in folks. And that’s why we see people going on to the next and the next and the next level.

Michele:

Yes. Love it. Live. Thank you so much. How can people connect with you?

Lyn:

Yes, please connect at Lynn Maureen hurdle.com, you will learn more about me on the matter of race program is there too. But also, on the matter of races, I said, we’re opening up for our January journey. I only take 12 In, in each level. And so for level one, I’d love to have you get in touch with us the link fall in the meta race, or go to my website, and it’s there, as well. And I’m really looking forward to the folks being a part of this and connecting with me. Thank you so much, Leonard, it’s great to have you on this. Oh, it’s always a pleasure. You know, I’ll

Michele:

do anything for you. I’m holding you to that. Port it. Thank you so much. Have a great week. That was LAN hurdle, wasn’t that fantastic. So she is doing work directly with white leaders to help them understand how to have conversations about racism, understand racism, and actually going to do the work is not an easy process. It is not a sprint, it is truly a marathon. So definitely, definitely be sure you connect with Lynn, you if you’re interested in learning more about the math on race. There’s the link so that you can go and engage and learn more about her program. So I highly, highly encourage if it’s not for you, maybe it’s for somebody that you know who may be interested. But again, remember she has a process she does. You have to apply and she interviews you so it is she doesn’t take everybody but she does make impact. So Thank you Lynn for the work that you continue to do.