Episode 194-Crossing State Lines? Beware!

Gun Lawyer

Episode 194-Crossing State Lines? Beware!

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Podcast Transcript

Gun Lawyer Episode 194

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

gun, firearm, massachusetts, carry, new jersey, state, carrying, unloaded, case, court, law, qualify, defendant, hartman, transporting, license, jersey, friend, person, lockbox

SPEAKERS

Speaker 3, Evan Nappen

Evan Nappen 00:00
Hi. I’m Evan Nappen, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. So, I picked up on an interesting article in one of my favorite 2A news feeds which is AmmoLand. AmmoLand Shooting Sports News. (AmmoLand.com) They had an important story here posted by Chuck Michel, who’s friend of mine. He’s a Second Amendment attorney in California. It says, “Second Amendment Law Center to File Amicus Brief in Nonresident Carry Rights case”. (https://www.ammoland.com/2024/07/second-amendment-law-center- to-file-amicus-brief-in-nonresident-carry-rights-case/#axzz8ftPVmKUG)

Evan Nappen 00:52
Now, what makes this really interesting is this is a case coming out of Massachusetts. However, this could dramatically affect, arguably down the road, all the other states, including New Jersey. It could directly affect New Jerseyans that travel into bad states and often others that travel into New Jersey. This case is Commonwealth vs. Donnell. This is an actual criminal case now. So, what’s great is it’s what they call a case in controversy because we have a real guy, a real criminal defendant, and it’s an actual case. So, there’s nothing about “standing” here for them to get out from under it. The defendant was a New Hampshire resident, and he was criminally charged with carrying a firearm without a gun permit from Massachusetts, while in Massachusetts. What we like to call taxechusetts.

Evan Nappen 02:06
And what happened there was he made a case, a defense, that the law requiring that license in Massachusetts is unconstitutional. It’s very interesting here. The trial court in Massachusetts ruled, and I’m quoting now from the case, “a law-abiding resident of New Hampshire who is exercising his Constitutional right should not become a felon by exercising that right while he is traveling through Massachusetts merely because he has not obtained a Massachusetts license to carry . . . This Court can think of no other constitutional right which a person loses simply by traveling beyond his home state’s border . . .”

Evan Nappen 02:59
Boy isn’t that powerful! Especially that last line. Think about that. I can’t think of any other constitutional right, can you? Which you lose simply because you cross a state line? Cross out of your home state into another state? That’s really good stuff. And what happened was the Commonwealth of

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Massachusetts did something that’s pretty unusual. They brought an appeal. The Government brought an appeal, and they brought it to the highest court in Massachusetts, what is called the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court. So, they brought it, essentially almost a direct appeal, so to speak, skipping the intermediate courts. They didn’t go through what would be the normal appeals process. And lo and behold, the Court accepted it. So, this means that the highest court in Massachusetts is now going to consider this case. This is very significant, because whatever that court decides, the next step can immediately be asking the United States Supreme Court to review this matter. And, of course, if the U.S. Supreme Court takes it up, that can have amazing ramifications. It would, in effect, give an ability to have national reciprocity, created by a court case. Think how great that would be.

Evan Nappen 04:44
In the opinion of the top court in Massachusetts, the Court specifically asked for amicus briefs and folks that want to supply them. They were soliciting for amicus, it’s a friend of the court briefs, so that other interested parties could put their position forward. They’ve basically summarized the question as to whether the judge in the court below, that made that ruling that we just discussed, erred, decided wrong, that the law “violated the defendants’ constitutional rights to equal protection and interstate travel, as well as their rights under the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, where the defendants were non-residents of Massachusetts charged in Massachusetts with carrying a firearm without a license, where the defendants could legally possess a firearm in their home State, and where there is no evidence that they applied for any license pursuant to the Massachusetts firearms licensing laws.”

Evan Nappen 06:02
Let me just tell you about non-resident Massachusetts laws. They suck. Because a resident of MA can apply and get a carry, and I think it’s good for about five years for the resident. But a non-resident license is only good for one year, one year, and it’s like $100, one year. In order to get a non-resident Massachusetts license, you have to physically go to Massachusetts for the “interview” which they hold in Chelsea. The scheduling of the interview, from when you put in your non-resident application, is running about nine months before you can even get the interview for a one-year license. I’m not kidding. It’s insanity. So, I would love to see national reciprocity created by case law. If the top court and MA rules against the defendant, then, of course, it opens it up for the U.S. Supreme Court. If the MA court rules in favor of the defendant, well, that’s great, because that’s good news, hopefully, for everybody else. So that MA no longer would be able to aggressively prosecute such folks, depending on how the court decides, of course. But even if they do decide with the defendant, that still doesn’t stop the Government of MA from asking the Supreme Court itself to consider it. The U.S. Supreme Court that is, and I don’t know if they would. This is a really important issue.

Evan Nappen 07:46
I want to point out that this amicus brief is being done by a group called the Second Amendment Law Center. The Second Amendment Law Center that’s bringing this amicus and helping out in this challenge, is looking for donations as well. I looked at their website, and it looks like a really great group. It’s 2ALC.org. Check them out, and if you’re so inclined, make a donation as they fight to expand our carry rights and end the tyranny that occurs in the non-recognition of a Constitutional right.

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Evan Nappen 08:32
This also reminds me that I want to review with everybody the way of transporting firearms interstate. Now, we’re not talking about carrying your loaded handgun on your person with your carry permit. We’re talking about transporting firearms through bad states like Massachusetts, New Jersey, you know, the worst anti-Second Amendment rights’ states that are out there and being able to transport your firearms through those states. There is a federal law that is pre-emptive which allows you to do that. It’s one of the few federal preemption laws that preempt the state law from being enforced. It’s found under the U.S. Code, Title 18 926 A. It says that you can go from one place where you can legally possess a firearm to another place where you can legally possess a firearm. Meaning, if you’re starting in a place where you have a carry permit, say like New Jersey, and you’re going to New Hampshire where it’s Constitutional carry, you don’t even need a permit or you’ve got a New Hampshire non-resident license, which you could also have gotten, then you can have your firearm unloaded, cased, and not readily accessible. I suggest the firearm be in a lockbox and have the ammo separate. Then you can drive through the bad states on your way between those two destinations that allow for your carry. But that’s transporting it, and it’s absolutely not loaded.

Evan Nappen 10:07
Make sure you don’t have a problem because the state borders can end up becoming a GOFU for you. Now, that’s not this week’s GOFU. But let me tell you, it’s a common GOFU that I see. I get cases all the time of folks coming into Jersey, a lot from Pennsylvania and other states, and they end up getting busted not realizing that New Jersey doesn’t recognize any other state’s license. And you know, we have a number of those states. New York is another state that doesn’t recognize any other state’s carry permit or license. I guess it’s just because the permit in New York and New Jersey is just so good. So fine, that no state can match it. Right? Yeah, right. It is a trap. It is a very big problem even if you end up inadvertently going into one of those states with your gun. You will end up in trouble.

Evan Nappen 11:09
Of course, one of the most famous cases of that is my case that I handled. Shaneen Allen. The famous Shaneen Allen case. A single black mom going from Pennsylvania to Jersey with her carry. She had been robbed a couple of times, and she got her carry. She was going to Atlantic City for a birthday party with her young kids. She gets stopped for a minor traffic problem. And lo and behold, she tells the officer that she has her gun. She disclosed it and what happens? She gets arrested and charged under Jersey’s law. And of course, the penalty is draconian. It’s up to 10 years in state prison, minimum mandatory three and a half years. As a matter of fact, before I got into her case, it had gone on for about six to nine months with another attorney, and the best offer the State had made to her at that time was seven years in state prison, with three and a half minimum mandatory. Just for not having Jersey’s permission slip. This is the kind of thing we deal with. You don’t want to end up with that problem. So, make sure when you transport your firearm, you protect yourself under the federal preemption, Title 18 926 A. Please help support these challenges. These challenges that have happened since St. Thomas gave us the majority opinion in the Bruen decision. And we can hopefully see these atrocities end. These victims of gun law are no longer being created by the absurd gun laws that these states have.

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Evan Nappen 12:50
Hey, I want to tell you all about an update here. It’s important to know about Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. You see, Hartman, Lieutenant Colonel Hartman, as I had him on the show. He was the top master IDF sniper, and he developed the entire training program for the IDF. Training, you know, over half a million soldiers. I may have told you, and it’s really important to note, he’s coming August 9, to WeShoot. WeShoot is a range in Lakewood and a proud sponsor of this show. Let me just give you some information about Lt. Col. Hartman. Lt. Col. Hartman’s seminar is going to be free, and he’s going to be there live at nine o’clock in the morning. But here’s the thing. He is doing this free for anybody who purchases his Elite Marksmanship Program system on his website. This seminar is going to be exclusive to anyone who has purchased that program. The reason is, here’s the reason, he’s going to personally instruct on how to implement the program, and he’s going to do it in the same way that the IDF does it. So, if you don’t have that Elite Marksman Program, if you don’t have that, if you didn’t buy it on the website, don’t attend since you won’t be able to implement it. That’s what this is going to be. I’ll be there as well, and I’ll be talking.

Evan Nappen 14:49
Now here’s a special deal just for Gun Lawyer listeners. If you want to register for the event, there are two simple things that you need to do. One, go to the website, www.elitemarksman.com elitmarksman.com, and purchase the program. Use the code, all caps, GUNLAWYER. One word, all caps, GUNLAWYER to get $100 off. This is only for those that know the magic words GUNLAWYER. Once you’ve purchased the program, go to We Shoot’s website, which is weshootusa.com, and register for the seminar under the training tab. So, if you go to the We Shoot website, you’ll see it under the training tab. Scroll down to “Specialty Classes and Events” and select the “Sharpshooters Edge: Mastering Rifle Marksmanship with Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman”. It’s going to be maxed out to around 100 people. That’s it. I know this is already extremely popular. Everybody’s talking about it. So, jump on this. Go to elitemarksman.com and get the program. I did. It’s fantastic. It is tops. Get the program, use the code GUNLAWYER and get your $100 discount. Then register for the event at weshootusa.com under “Training” to meet in person and be instructed in person by Lieutenant Colonel Mikey Hartman. He’s the only Israeli Jewish soldier ever to make the cover of Soldier of Fortune, by the way. His resume is far more than just making the cover of Soldier of Fortune. He is an amazing hero, and he really knows his stuff. If you didn’t hear that podcast, go back to the podcast. (Episode 189 – Nappen Interviews Head Sniper of the IDF). It is one of the best podcasts I ever did, speaking to Lieutenant Colonel Hartman. To get to meet him in person, make sure you sign up. Do it sooner rather than later. Because you may not be able to if you wait. Get on it now. Also keep in mind that WeShoot is a great range in Lakewood and is also there as a resource for your shooting needs. Getting other training, including your CCARE training to get your carry permit. These are wonderful folks. I really love them down there. They treat you like family. Check out weshootusa.com.

Evan Nappen 17:45
Since we’re discussing fighting for rights, I want to make sure that every listener of Gun Lawyer is a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. The state association that’s what we call it, the state Association. It’s the state affiliate officially of the NRA, but it is its own organization. They are the group that defends our gun rights. They’re the guys and gals litigating in federal court as we speak, on the so-called assault firearm ban, which we really know it as the modern sporting rifle ban,

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the large capacity magazine ban, which is really a standard capacity magazine ban, and on the Carry Killer bill and other things. There are more things even in the works. I’ve worked with them, hand in hand, with my good friend and colleague, Dan Schmutter, a great attorney. We’ve been able to get changes through the Attorney General and all kinds of things. So, that’s just on that side of it. Plus, they have a full time paid lobbyist in Trenton on the lookout, guarding vigilantly of our rights. So, make sure you are a member of the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs. Go to anjrpc.org and join the Association. You’ll get a great newsletter. You’ll get email updates, and you’ll know that you are part of the solution by joining anjrpc.org.

Evan Nappen 19:22
Let me also tell you that one of the best ways you can protect yourself is to get my book. My book is called New Jersey Gun Law. It’s the Bible of New Jersey gun law. It’s over 500 pages with 120, over 120 questions, topics, excuse me, over 120 topics in a question and answer format. I made it as easy as possible. It’s a labor of love. I put so many hours into that book. It’s there as your guide to stay legal in a very difficult state that we call the DPRNJ. That’s right. The Democratic People’s Republic of New Jersey. If you want to stay legal as a gun owner, you really need my book. So, go to EvanNappen.com. My name.com. Can you believe I’m a .com Well, I am. EvanNappen.com. You’ll see the book there. Click it, and you can get your copy of it and have it in a matter of days. Make sure you scan the front cover because right on that front cover is a QR code that will send you right to my subscriber base. You can join for free. When you join for free, you’re going to get all the updates. The book is going to stay current. You can access the archives for other updates. So, make sure you sign up for that. You’ll be glad you did.

Evan Nappen 20:48
So, I’m taking a look at some other great letters that I’ve received that are really interesting and important. I love getting mail from the listeners. I really do. This one is from George. George says regarding NJ carry qualification. Hi Evan. I was told when I qualify for my New Jersey CCW. I prefer to call it a PTC, Permit To Carry, because that’s what we have. We don’t have a Concealed Carry Weapon, but that’s okay, George. I’ll forgive you. That we need to qualify with each gun I want to carry and could come back and qualify for a small fee with a new gun. Some friends took the test at a different location and were told they only have to qualify with one gun and can list other guns when they apply and that’s what they did. Is that correct and how can I add more guns to my ccw?

Evan Nappen 21:46
Okay, George, here’s the deal. You do not have to qualify anymore with each gun you carry. Under the new C CARE protocols, all you have to do is demonstrate your core competency with that CCARE qualification. It does not matter what gun you qualify with for your CCARE. After that, you can go to the form right on the State Police website and list any gun that you wish to carry. (https://www.nj.gov/njsp/firearms/forms.shtml – S.P.182a) You can qualify under CCARE with literally an air pistol because that’s a firearm and a handgun in Jersey. You could qualify with a .22 pistol. Either of those you could qualify with under CCARE, as long as you complete the course of fire and show your core competency. Then if you wanted to, you could carry a Smith and Wesson 500 Magnum revolver. There’s no individual qualification per gun. It’s your core competency that just gets demonstrated by CCARE. So, I wouldn’t be paying any, “small fee” to qualify with other guns. It’s not necessary. You

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simply submit the form (S.P.182a) that has those additional guns. So, George, thanks for that great question.

Evan Nappen 23:18
Now this is from Ronald, and Ronald says regarding carrying while bicycling. Hi Evan. Due to high prices during these inflationary times, wait a minute, doesn’t our President say that that’s all going really well? I don’t know what you’re talking about there, Ronald. But anyway, during these inflationary times, I’ve started riding my bicycle to get around the city. I enjoy it as a great way to stay in shape, but sometimes I find myself in less safe neighborhoods. Since I have a PTC, hey, he used the right word – good. Thank you Ronald. I’m considering carrying while cycling. What recommendations do you have for this situation?

Evan Nappen 24:00
Well, carrying on a bicycle is the same as carrying on your person. It is the same as carrying in a motor vehicle because the Association of New Jersey Rifle & Pistol Clubs, won on their case challenging the Carry Killer law, knocking out the motor vehicle requirement of having to be unloaded in a motor vehicle. Now, maybe a bicycle is or isn’t a motor vehicle, but we don’t have to deal with that issue. Because you can have your gun loaded and concealed on your person in your motor vehicle anyway. You’re going to have a concealed and loaded gun on your person on a bicycle. You’re going to have a concealed and loaded gun on your person on a motorcycle. If I keep going, it’s starting to sound like a Dr. Seuss book, but you get the idea. So, you’re okay there, bud. Protect yourself on your bike. Not a problem. Just carry as you would carry whether on a bicycle or not.

Evan Nappen 25:01
Here’s another great question, and this is from Mike. Being we’re talking about vehicles, Mike says regarding CCW vehicle storage. Annnnnat. Oh, Mike used the CCW. It says, love your podcast. Regarding vehicle storage. If I choose to remove my weapon from my person and I secure it in my lockbox, am I required to remove the ammo from the mag? Or can I store a loaded mag with the firearm? With CCW, can we store the weapon with the magazine loaded but not chambered? Pretty sure I know the answers, but I’d love clarification. Thanks for everything you do.

Evan Nappen 25:41
Well, thanks, Mike. Let’s clarify all this. So, what you’re referring to there is essentially what happens if you’re carrying loaded concealed on your person, legally with your PTC, and then you enter into a sensitive area. A sensitive area, where you now are in the parking lot, and you can’t go into the building like a hospital, let’s say, or someplace like that. Right? Of the 25 sensitive places that we’ve reviewed. So, what the law allows is for you to secure your firearm, but how do you do it? Well, I advise that you take your gun, make it unloaded, take the magazine out, nothing in the chamber, and lock it in a lockbox. There’s nothing saying that you cannot take your magazine even with you, if you wish. The gun is plainly unloaded, and it’s in a lockbox. There is no magazine or ammunition with the gun. You’re not required to unload your magazine. You’re not required to do that. Even the State Police on their website say you don’t have to unload magazines even when going to the range. They do not consider a gun loaded if just the magazine is loaded. But do not keep the magazine loaded in the gun or with the gun. I don’t want to see the State try to make an argument that your gun was loaded because your mag

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was loaded, and it was all right there. So, don’t do that. Now, if you want to be extra careful, you can unload your magazine. Keep the ammunition separate from the gun, in a separate container. Then you can have your empty mag and the gun together. The empty mag can be in the gun or outside the gun while it’s in the locked container. Keep the ammunition separate, though. This is the way to be extra clear that you’re within the exemption that allows you to do this if you enter into a sensitive area.

Evan Nappen 27:43
Now, keep in mind that there are a couple of caveats here, particularly concerning schools. There is a sensitive place regarding schools, we’ve reviewed them. But there’s also a school prohibition for school property in a different section under N.J.S. 2C:39-5.e. Under that ban, under subsection e., there’s no exemption for even being on the property with a gun. So, the exemption that works to sensitive places that I just described is not sufficient for the separate educational facilities prohibition found under the other section of Jersey law. So, in that case, you better find another spot, not on school property, to park and then secure your firearm in the manner that we discussed. Thanks, Mike, for an excellent question.

Evan Nappen 28:47
Now, Matt, has a question. Matt wants to know about what to do if you’re pulled over by the police. What do we have to do if we have a PTC and we’re carrying, loaded and concealed on our person. I put together here it in three easy pieces, depending on what you’re doing, and I’m going to read them to you verbatim so that you have them, too. So that you can put this in your mind, so you don’t have a GOFU here by failing to do what the law requires. New Jersey has what’s called “Duty to Disclose”. So, if you’re stopped by police in your vehicle or even out on the street and you’re carrying, you must tell the officer if you have a Permit to Carry and you have that loaded handgun or you’re transporting a handgun even unloaded. Here are the rules. Here’s how it works.

Evan Nappen 29:52
Number one, if you’re a holder of a New Jersey Permit to Carry and are pulled over, when the officer approaches the vehicle to speak to you, make sure you immediately disclose to the officer that you’re carrying or transporting a handgun. You must also produce your New Jersey Carry Permit. Do not show the firearm or touch it, unless instructed by the officer. Number two, if you’re not a holder of a New Jersey Carry Permit and are lawfully transporting firearms, unloaded, cased and/or locked in the trunk of your vehicle under the exemptions, you do not need to disclose to the officer that you are currently traveling with firearms. That’s right. If you’re not a Permit to Carry holder, you don’t have a Duty to Disclose. But if you are, then you do. Finally, three, if you are unlawfully carrying or transporting firearms, you have no obligation to disclose to the officer that you’re carrying or transporting firearms. You have a Fifth Amendment right to say nothing. So, Matt, those are the rules and thanks for a great question.

Evan Nappen 31:14
Finally, I want to talk to you about the famous GOFU. That’s right, the ever popular segment of Gun Lawyer. GOFUs are Gun Owner Fuck Ups. Why do we talk about GOFUs? Because it is an expensive lesson that others have learned, actual real cases that I’ve dealt with, where you get to learn for free. So, it’s pretty cheap. And that’s what you need to know. Because the advice could be priceless. So,

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today’s GOFU is literally a GOFU because I’m talking about public bathrooms, my friends. We have talked about this on shows before, but I really want to make it clear. I see these cases coming up when you’re carrying your gun, and you end up having to use a public bathroom. I have seen case after case of individuals who forget their gun in the bathroom. They leave it on top of the toilet paper holder or leave it on the floor or whatever. Then next thing you know, they’ve got a world of problems. In the best case, they’re just seeking to revoke your carry license. Worst case, you’ve got a stolen gun, a lost gun or even worse problems. So, look, don’t create a GOFU here. Literally a go through. When you go to the bathroom, leave your gun in its holster when you pull down your pants. Now, it’s weird, but it’s true. Don’t take it out. What a lot of folks do, the technique, the trick, is they flick their underwear, their stretchy underwear, right over the gun on the belt. Flip it over it so it keeps it steady there and keeps it tight to your body. So, no one reaches under the bathroom stall to grab your gun that they might see there. That’s another concern in this area. Even though it might be safer sitting on the toilet paper dispenser, you take a risk that you may forget it. I’ve seen it happen. So, be extra careful in public bathrooms. And, of course, not just for that reason, but we’re not talking about those reasons, but be extra careful for sure with your firearm and be very conscientious about that issue when you have to use a public bathroom. This is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens.

Speaker 3 33:58
Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing [e-mail]. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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Downloadable PDF Transcript

Gun Lawyer S3 E194_Transcript

About The Host

Evan Nappen, Esq.

Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It’s Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham’s Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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