Marketing and History - Live Episode 4

Marketing Study Lab - Actionable Marketing Knowledge

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Guest: Em Wilson (https://www.linkedin.com/in/emwilson36274/) Topic: Marketing and History

Discussion Points • Tractor magazines • Toothpaste changing a nations habits • Is breakfast the most important meal of the day? • Is smoking healthy? • Sample cards • Historical brands and logos

Link to the live video:https://www.linkedin.com/video/live/urn:li:ugcPost:6715289765270315009/

Enjoy the Episode - Happy Marketing!

Website Thingy: www.marketingstudylab.co.uk The Professional Bit: https://www.linkedin.com/in/petersumpton/ Facebook Community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/marketingstudylab/ Tweet Tweet: https://twitter.com/cousinp81

Transcript (this transcript isn’t 100% accurate but provides a decent representation of the conversation – soz for any confusion)

Peter Sumpton

Hello and welcome. My name is Peter Sumpton, marketing consultant and Lego master of marketing and you're listening to the marketing study lab podcast live. Well, this bit isn't live, but the rest of it is. You'll hear a bit about that later. I mean, now, let's crack on. These episodes are taken from my live show marketing, where we look at the relationship between marketing and a specific topic. Subject or specialism. Sometimes there'll be guests, other times, it will just be me. So let's get cracking. Right, apparently we are live. Fantastic. Great thing. First first time and Wilson Welcome to LinkedIn live. It's wonderful in here, isn't it? Absolutely marvellous. So glad you'd say you do this. I'm really looking forward to it. Because I know you've put a lot of time and effort into the research into this and every time you post something, in terms of the history of marketing and all that kind of stuff. It's really engaging, really exciting. And I just can't wait to see what you've got for us today. But I'm going to chip in with a few things as well if you don't mind. But before we do that, first of all, introduce yourself to the lovely audience who are you?

Em Wilson

Well we take screenshots Everyone knows that we're live wire on my station.

Peter Sumpton

I was looking at the camera there. It's not gonna look good.

Em Wilson

I don't look great either to be better excited.

Yeah, introduce yourself. So I'm m Wilson. I run an international marketing agency called Mari Mari located at UK and and yeah, bit of a bit of a weird and wonderful squiggly career into marketing. So and started in the commercial team at BP and trading so as a buyer, and then went into strategy for Europe for Castro then I did some global social media for BP, their tech startup through a successful investment round. And then I did six months with a as a marketing director and business development manager and then yeah, walked out and started Omari

Peter Sumpton

as you do, where does the name of Mari come from?

Em Wilson

And so, in honesty, it's a bit of a smush of my my name and my husband's name. So we save you money. And and yeah, we were just always always married. So that was because we were proper from day one. So

Peter Sumpton

great, great little story that absolutely fantastic. And how is life in general? And

Em Wilson

yeah, really good actually. I mean, I think I'm, you know, I'm in a bit of a COVID bubble because I don't really I don't really know anyone that's been affected touch word. And and and in honesty, although we've had you know, some struggles I think everyone's had some struggles during COVID. And you know, lots of our clients have have you know, we've had to stop projects and do payment plans and things like that, but overall, I think Yeah, not it's not the bit I've missed most is actually my Latin dance classes, which is out of everything you know, it's not a lot to complain about, is it?

Peter Sumpton

Anyone who's ever gonna come in here and say I'm missing my dance class?

Em Wilson

That's that's all like that thing really and hug people as well. person and I'm really struggling with not being able to sort of cut off people because you know that you might think they made it into the best man speech at my wedding was like the you know, the legendary avocados. Yeah.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for asking. Yeah, all good. Bit of a cold which is a bit of a downer. But apart from that all is all is good with life To be fair, busy, busy, busy, which is always fun and always exciting. But yeah, things are things are going pretty damn good. Again, similar to you can't complain touchwood, my own little bubble, that kind of stuff. But have been infiltrated by a call. But apart from that, all is really good. Right? Okay, we should really talk about some serious stuff shouldn't we'll give people watching at least something to keep rather than our life stories. So what I wanted to talk to you today about so the way I'm doing these lives is that it's kind of like a marketing and series. So this this is classed as marketing and history, but it doesn't really do it justice. So I think the great thing and anyone that doesn't follow, please follow and go back through some of the videos and some of the posts about some historic elements in marketing and how it's been used through history and time and stuff like that. It's amazing. And plus, take a look at the videos where she just picks something random that a client has asked glean a lot of information from them. It's pretty much how I do all my strategies to be fair. Watch your videos, and then pick You know, the bowl and go? Yeah, that's about right. Let's do anyone that's watching. I don't do that. Okay, but so what I want to do is dive into kind of the history of marketing or certain elements of the history or certain things you've found that's really interesting, fascinating that we might even learn from. So first and foremost, take it away, what, what would you say is like, let's start on a high the most exciting thing or the most interesting thing that you that you've seen recently in terms of marketing and history.

Em Wilson

And so I'm, I'm a really big fan of the custom magazine, so that I've got a I've got a lot of time for that. And basically, it's different companies creating magazines for their particular target audience. Because it's really interesting. There is a brilliant book by Joe bootsy, that talks about how do you make marketing a profit centre? And one of the ways you do that is through a magazine that you get people to pay for. And so that got me like, hooked, like, when did it start from, you know, obviously, we had the Gutenberg press in 1450, or whatever it was so and then everyone always talks about the Pharaoh, which started in I think it was 1895, which was a tractor magazine. And so I've learned about tractors. But actually, the first, the first magazine I can find was in 1730. And there was a race between Ben Franklin and this other guy to who could get the first published magazine in America, which I found really fascinating. So he started that off, that was quite nice. And then, with the magazines that what I found quite interesting about that was just how, like, if you think about the 1730s, like, the only way that people could really mark it was like word of mouth. It was, and, you know, posters on the side of building, which actually got, it got so bad, because people are doing it so often, that actually got banned in London and France.

And France.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah, no one else had posted.

Em Wilson

But that I found really interesting. And then, and you know, the adverts from like the 1800s, as well. And so there was I found out about this whole thing about the baking powder was, and which is really exciting. Yeah, so baking powder in like the, you know, late 17 1700s, early 1800s was this, like the adverts and nuts? Like they're just so because what you don't realise is that no, baking powder was like, female liberation at the time, like a woman's worth is defined by the quality of her bread. So like baking powder was incredible. And it's so it was so competitive. And like, you look at all the adverts, and they're just, they're just insane. They're just really fun. And in terms of the different things that they did, and I think, you know, it's kind of, then you move on, and you kind of have, and obviously the posters and everything, all the adverts from that magazine went out into the posters, and then the posters got banned. So then we had the billboard, and billboards came out in like 1860s. And I think that the first one was rented in 1867. And what I find amazing about these things is that, you know, like, if you think, however many years later, so 2010 Mini, like the car company, look pretty glued and actual mini to the top of the Billboard, as sort of, you know, shout out marketing think outside the box. And I just, you know, you see all these things that happened in sort of, yeah, the 1718 1900s and how that kind of came through, like telemarketing. So I'm under the like telemarketing. Everyone thinks that's like 1970s 1980s Wolf of Wall Street. started in the early 1900s by a bunch of housewives who wanted to sell more cookies. Yeah. So not even joking. And he then had, and they basically sold the original lead list of, you know, local directories, and these ladies would just ring each other up and say, you know, my recipe is better than yours. Do you want to buy my piece?

Peter Sumpton

I just I find it fascinating how? Here we overcomplicate marketing, like we just do massively. And I always find it interesting to go back to its roots and original, where it all came from, and all that kind of stuff. And from from what I know, and what I found, is that there's no no one can give you a definitive, this is where marketing started. This is how this grew. Yeah, there's like tally marks in our posters and stuff like that. But it's usually someone's doing it in one country, or someone's doing it over here at the same time, roughly the same time, or whatever it is, and they derive something slightly different. And I just think typifies what marketing is all about, you know, trying new things, testing new things trying to stand out, but to a particular audience, and I think it's really interesting that if you read the history and go try to go back as far as you can, there isn't a Well, this person said this, and that led to, there are certain elements, but there's almost it's almost hearsay if you like.

Em Wilson

Yeah. And that I think that's the bit I find I find fascinating about it. And the bit I really enjoy about like, the history of marketing particularly is just its effect on society. Like, I don't think you know, so like, and I always go back to the toothpaste analogy, so, and advertising actually save the teeth of a nation.

And so

my favourite, one of my favourites,

that and you know, so back in the early 1900s, again, and only like 7% of Americans brush their teeth every day, which just seems insane. Yeah. And then this guy, called, I think his name's Claude Hopkins or something. But he, he basically got asked to advertise some toothpaste. But obviously, nobody really got it, they didn't really understand why they needed it. So he went and wrote read a load of dentistry books, which was really boring. And he found out about plaque and how it leaves like the film on your teeth. And he is actually one of the earliest examples of the cue and reward and advertising and marketing that we can find or I found today. And so the cue is if you feel the film on your teeth, then the reward is brushwood, Pepcid and get like the tingling feeling. Okay. Yeah.

And yeah, and so by the end, so it was all sort of do the tongue test, I think was his tagline. And, and he is like, within a decade, 65% of Americans were then brushing their teeth every day. And he also you had like the beginnings of influencer marketing, because Clark Gable was known for his Pepsi dense smile, Shirley Temple, you know, all of these people are so yeah, it's just I think that's, it's sort of the Mad Men era that I really enjoy.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah. And we, we need, and things are slightly changed from when I was, was being educated in marketing, if you want to call it that. But it's, I'd say, a lot of people get into the industry, because of that madman era, which is, I think it's slightly changed now. But and it's more, I suppose I have a Zuckerberg error if you like. And that's why people get into it, whether they fall into it by accident, or they want to, but I was hugely influenced by the fact that the psychology behind marketing and how it can have a massive influence on Well, actually a nation, like you just said, to the point of view that it changes culture. And I feel like did it change culture, people like cleaning the teeth.

That's, that's my,

Em Wilson

that was the bit in their social dilemma. I don't know if you've seen it on Netflix yet. But that's, I mean, that just makes you want to throw your phone out the window, and start talking about all the data that people get from, from your social media channels and stuff. But I thought was really interesting about that was it wasn't that the consumer was the was the main thing, like getting more customers wasn't actually the main thing. It was behavioural change. Or it was all kind of focused on and I thought that was Yeah, just really interesting. But I look to the the old, the old marketing, so mad men is usually associated with the 1950s, isn't it? I was talking about sort of the Victorian Mad Men, I sort of see them,

Peter Sumpton

okay.

Em Wilson

But, and also, like, think about Michelin, so like, and the tires, they started their publication in 1904. And because they wanted people to go explore, so they wear the tie that more often so that they, you know, so much higher. And now it's like the industry standard or gold standard for restaurants and things.

of 100 years.

Peter Sumpton

And that's it makes it makes me laugh. Like today when you hear people come up with some crazy ideas or crazy concepts within within marketing or everyone thinks that that's what we do. We draw stuff we call stuff in we come up with stupid ideas. Okay, we kind of do, but there's a lot of there's a lot of theory and methodology behind it. Imagine going into a boardroom. And, like, just on the face of it saying, right, we're at a company, what do you want to do? I know what we're gonna do. We're gonna give restaurants rewards. What how, how does that work? I but the theory behind it is absolutely bang, when you tell people that story, but that's how the stars came about and all that kind of stuff. It's like, Oh, yeah. And that's what really fascinates me about like, the history of marketing is the fact that you look at various things. And most people like the toothpaste, for example, they probably thought he was crazy. Like he never got to get people to clean the teeth. But doing his research, and bringing it forward to what people gather data for is behavioural change. That's pretty much what he did. He went back and read books and said, right, okay, this is a thing that I feel can influence people to change the way they think about their teeth.

Em Wilson

But what I love about that one particularly is like the dentist history books he read, he said in his autobiography that they were like, so dry because it was just all about what newsone plaque and like, just sounds and making it, you know, by calling it the film, like anybody can understand that anybody knows when you wrap your your tongue across your teeth, exactly how that feels, you know, if you've had a glass of red wine or something, you can feel it. It was that it was making, I think sometimes it marketing is just about making the complex, simple. And certainly like that the you know, that's the the challenge that keeps me in interested in in what I do is a lot of my work is actually how do you take this really sort of techie complicated thing and make it ama friendly, I call it

sort of anybody could understand

2010. And I think that's, that's the important bit of a bit of marketing. And I think also, like, the other thing that we learn from the history is to play to your strengths. So, you know, think about, you know, post World War, you had the the VW, the Volkswagen, and you sell, you know, a German car, that's pretty rubbish in comparison with its western counterparts. And, and you know, and it's got horrible name on it. And what you do is you call it a VW, and all of the copy around those adverts were about the fact Yes, it was very small. And no, it wasn't going to go very fast. But it was reliable, and it wasn't going to need a lot of upkeep. So for people in post war, you know, post war Britain, post war America, it was actually as long as you call it VW Volkswagen actually not, it was a lot easier to get that that message across and actually became, it became a bit of a personality symbol a bit like the Mini is now. You know, for people, it's a bit quirky. And you know, many really, I think they actually took the lessons from VW from the 50s. And sort of brought that sort of into its own in the sort of the 2010. And because they were they were, you know, really playing on the on the mini sort of quirky personality. Yeah, yeah, that's really, I really enjoy it.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah, I mean, I, again, I mean, there's so many lessons we learn through looking at history and what's gone before us and all that kind of stuff. And we should always be looking forward. Don't get me wrong. But looking back to that. And and, again, the simplicity of marketing is, you know, you've got something that solves a problem. How do you get it into the hands of the people that have that problem? That's it, you know, that's all we're here to do? Through various methods or whatever. And pretty much, that's what VW did. They're like, Okay, we've got this car. So I'm going to suit everyone. It just isn't it fundamentally isn't. And we don't say Volkswagen, because that is far too German. So how do we get into this UK in this US market, right? We're going to need a name change, fine tick. But it's too small for most. So we're not targeting big families. We're not targeting people that want to do long journeys. Let's just be really focused and targeted on the people that that may want this. And let's make our comms about them. And how this car isn't made for everyone. And straight away, you're, you're in a select club isn't made for everyone.

Em Wilson

Yeah, you have to opt in. Yeah. And what I, what I love about those adverts as well is they really understood the power of whitespace. So like, if you look at their adverts, it's literally like a full page. And it's this tiny little car in the top right hand corner. And then there's a little bit of text at the bottom, I mean, talk about minimalism. It was you know, it was cutting edge really, in terms of like in terms of the messaging in terms of the coffee, I bowed down to those guys, they were they you know, absolutely incredible with what they did. But also, you know, sometimes you can solve a problem too easily. So, you know, tell me what you just said on its head a little bit.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah, no, go for it.

Em Wilson

Think another foodie one. But if you think Betty Crocker, so when she started, because obviously, you know, after, after the telephone, we had the radio, and then you obviously went to TV. And And what was interesting about that was that when she started with her cooking mixes in the early 50s, and you know, all the all women had to do was add water. And I thought, well, this is you know, they thought this is going to fly off the shelves, it's going to be amazing. And you know, it's going to make life so much easier for women and they can just, you know, sit back have a have couple of gems or however they want to do. And actually it was too easy. And, and their their sales didn't didn't do anything at all. So they had to actually add an egg that became the thing was add an egg. And then because then it was something about adding two ingredients that made women feel like they'd been important, because what they were suffering from was a form of guilt. Like it's too easy. I'm getting great feedback on my amazing cake that I didn't make this better. But by adding an egg, I don't know why there's some psychology in there. So that made it that made it they felt more invested and therefore it flew off the shelf after that,

Peter Sumpton

even that that's understanding your audience, isn't it going back to what we say and it's just understanding the market that you're serving and learning from your mistakes. I suppose You've taken it too far. But you're

Em Wilson

taking on feedback because they could have just carried on flogging it with the Add water. They could have just you know, you could have just seen more and more adverts coming out about that, but it was actually going to the customer base and going, why don't you like this? And, you know, actually making the making the effort and the point to not assume that they knew the answer. I think that's the really key point to take away from that example actually is, and like in today's society, I think because we're just so data driven, you know, you've got robots pretending to be humans and humans pretending to be robots. And we get so stressed about the data, we actually just forget to talk to one another. And that's, you know, such a such an incredible and you know, the feedback you can get from your clients and prospective clients. You know, every conversation you can learn something quite interesting.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah.

Absolutely. So just just a quick hello to James, he was on last last Friday, and we had a good Well, I'm gonna have to say we had good crack because he's Irish nickel me If I don't take a crack, at least once on the show. That was the contract that to sign. So he asked the question, and I've got no idea. The answer this, but this will be interesting. So what in history was the first most recognisable brand?

That's a bit of a big one, isn't it?

So, I mean, that's a Wikipedia question. And to be perfectly honest, I'd be amazed if there wasn't, if there wasn't actual answer to that. And from by that, what I mean, is that this probably recognisable brands going back way, way way. I mean, it's probably going to be something like Coca Cola or something. My first

Em Wilson

thought, but then when they first started, they only sold like, they didn't sell many bottles at all.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah, yeah, I know. I know. So I'm just trying to think of like, I think Coca Cola took the brand and made a thing, like in terms of what brand can do, because that is bigger than the actual rubbish that we sell, isn't it? Sorry.

It's not all

Em Wilson

green. And then now he's now he's red, because that was Coca Cola, wasn't it? That's always the I don't know if that's actually true. That might be myth and legend rather than actual true fact.

Peter Sumpton

Nothing is true.

It Well, they seem to claim it's true, but you just follow it up with that. So I don't know whether he's on Wikipedia or not. But yeah, yeah, we thought it was Coca Cola as well. But I think that massively depends on the country as well, because there was probably recognisable brands in the, in the in the UK, that weren't necessarily in us or whatever. But having said that, well, we've got some great participation now. So we'll just should just keep clicking char. So he comes up with this one, which is probably right

Em Wilson

about it. It was probably alcohol, it was probably a vise Yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, something that's not good for you. Because

Peter Sumpton

I'm thinking cigarettes, maybe?

Em Wilson

Well, they were they when they first came out. They were not that's what

Peter Sumpton

I mean. But it's still a race, which I was going to come on to in a minute, we'll come back to smoking. It's not actual smoking. But ama says that it could be Ford. Yeah. Which quite interesting. Although she has it's

too late. Probably. I'm not quite sure about

if she means for not her answer.

For I think for took the from my point of view Anyway, I'm not sure what you think about Sam but I think from for took the fact that brands probably know consumers better than they know themselves. And well, they're

Em Wilson

thinking about it. And you probably see if you think like in terms of brand, something like tea. I've just had a look at em on. I'm just on the time. Time website at the moment. And what closure? Absolutely. Yeah, like Google is your friend. And so stellar artwork was apparently that their logo was first used in 1366. So their oldest brand that times found anyway. And but what they said was actually yeah, Twinings tea that was 1887 if you think about sort of the trade routes and stuff, yeah, that kind of makes sense to me. So

no, like if someone asks a question, I don't know the answer, right.

Peter Sumpton

Chrissy says, loughs gone, Sarah, that's got that's got to be down. That's somewhere that has got to be. I think it's not going back as far as stellar or Twinings, but that's got to be somewhere. Definitely, so Okay, thanks, James. for that question. We've kind of ruined the whole show that but you know, we'll let you off. No, no, no, I have any further questions. Like please please dive in. Because some of those were, if anyone does actually know if anyone's got anything different From stellar or Twinings, that'd be interesting to know. I mean, fact we only deal with fun. Absolutely. So just going back to smoking gun, I'm not, I'm gonna never have never will. But I find it really interesting. And I'm gonna bring this to the modern day. But I find it really interesting that smoking was always seen as a positive thing to do, and a health thing. And the fact that menthol cigarettes were, so you could have fresh breath and stuff like that. And I find it really interesting that some things we take today. And I get your take on the smoking thing in a minute, but some things we take today. So things that were fundamentally made up like, I think I mentioned this in a previous show, but breakfast most important meal of the day. Well, I wonder where that came from? Would it be research that was conducted and sponsored by cereal manufacturer is

Em Wilson

by any chance? Yeah,

Peter Sumpton

absolutely. So no wonder it's the most important deal meal of the day. But it's the fact that going back to smoking, that the trust and belief that we have in what people tell us. And that's why brands are so important. And that's why brands have a place in society, but they can have a huge impact on how we feel about certain things. So what's your take on the whole smoking thing, then? going way back?

Em Wilson

Well, in terms of

Peter Sumpton

in terms of in terms of, of the how they used it as a positive?

Em Wilson

Yeah, I mean, they they use the oldest trick in the book, didn't they? They just, they just used it as sex. It was, you know, only cool people it was, you know, there wasn't any sort of, you know, boring person in the outfits, it was all to do with them. You know, it was it was a lifestyle choice. It was you, you you bought into that into that look into that into that vote if you like, you know, same way I buy an Apple Computer, because it says something about me, I think, you know, when you explain to me It said something about you and, and brand loyalty that mean, having been a buyer. And I actually did quite a lot on the sort of analysis of tobacco, and the brand loyalty is insane. Yeah, yes. So, you know, and tobacco is, you know, one of the biggest categories in you know, one of the, one of the certainly most profitable, and because, you know, it's addictive, isn't it? So? But yeah, we had to keep certain ranges and you'd like but we sell four of these a year. But you'd like your but Mike in that particular? No, Petra, he can't get his brand. He will start you know, shopping in Shell. Yeah. So yeah, I think the brand loyalty was it was was mad. And I think they have, they have done quite a lot in terms of, I think the the going dark was a, you know, quite stressful and but really good idea. And I'm not entirely sure how, how you be interesting, I haven't done the research on it and the need to on the, you know, having the adverts on the front of the packets, something if you if you're going to smoke, you're going to smoke to be interesting to see, I think what was I always had this idea of, you know, rather than having any advertising on it, almost have it like brown paper, and then in the cigarette packet have like a crayon, so you can draw on it. And but obviously, that's got charged presentation, suppose possibly not, but yeah, the I think it What amazes me is how long it took actually, for smoking, you know, the dangers of smoking and, and the realities of sort of, you know, the consequences of it, to actually filter into, into consciousness. And into, you know, because people would just for so long and accepted it, you know, in the war, so just smoke to keep going, you know, it was it was, it was something that they needed. And in a way, you know, great stress. It was a stress relief. But that's how it was noted, I think and say, yeah, just just the fact that it became so pervasive in such a, you know, reasonably short amount of time, actually, if you think World War 119 40. And today or to, you know, the sort of when it started becoming, you know,

bad idea.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah, I think right. And I think train trends change, and what we learn about certain things has, has a huge, huge impact on what we know, like and trust in our particular brands. Interesting. I was told this, so this this is going off on somebody told me rather than fact, but I think it's fact. So when when Steve Jobs, wanted to push and promote Apple computers, he didn't just go he didn't go down the address. He didn't just do that. He didn't just think right, okay, I need to be everywhere all the time. He gave them away to very influential people at the time. And it's just like, I don't know whether that was quite unique in what you did at the time. But knowing and understanding that culture and knowing and understanding that if you gives it to influential people that is far more influential than putting something in print in a certain magazine. I mean, that's huge.

Em Wilson

Think about 1984. I mean, that was a moment in time that Superbowl advert and that cost him, you know, I think nearly a million to create, but that wasn't that wasn't an advert. That was it. That was a Mini Movie. Yeah, that was that wasn't you know, even now, when I watched that I get sort of, you know, skin freckles, it's just it was so he was so ahead of his time in terms of understanding that that's what people wanted. I mean, now you get it all the time, you know, Lego movies, you know, that was just a full feature.

ventilated, really, really well for that,

um, you know, and again, that's a marketing department becoming, you know, almost profitable in saying, right.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah, absolutely. And

Em Wilson

as opposed to selling Lego. Yeah.

Peter Sumpton

Because that's what marketing needs to be seen as it does. It's not a it's not a cost to a business. It should be either a value or profit creator. And there's so many ways and it's interesting that the most the most innovative innovative one I've seen over the past like few days is the the Burger King and Stevenage linkup. I don't know if you've seen that. Well, that So what they did was, and I don't know hundred percent but basically, Burger King sponsored Stevenage. So when Stevenage were on a computer game in football, a football computer game sorry. All their players at Burger King on the top. So what Burger King did was say they did a whole campaign around play Stevenage and see how far you can get them saying the best players for Stevenage, you can buy the best players to see and everywhere you when it had Burger King on the top. So it was just unreal, just

Em Wilson

brilliant. I loved what they did in Germany when COVID started because they had the big six foot some bow around

it make it to the UK, I definitely would have bought one.

And one thing I liked about their communities, they they were always so and they've done some very interesting LGBT pieces recently. And so there's a piece between Burger King and Ronald McDonald, which I thought was very clever, and quite strong, quite powerful stuff. And but the other thing I liked about Burger King was they do you remember in I don't know. 20? Was it 2009 2010? They did the Delete 10 Facebook friends and get a free Whopper.

Peter Sumpton

All right, no, no.

Em Wilson

So and they say Facebook closed down eventually, because they they actually gave away 200,000

burgers.

But I think what they really clicked into was actually you know, how social media has fundamentally changed our understanding of friendships. In life, you know, if you I do an awful lot of work and speaking on social capital, and the power of social capital, and how that you know, the intrinsic value that you get from your relationships, and how that relates to the psychology of marketing, all that sort of stuff. But what's really interesting that is, you know, if you look at the data, people only really have 150 relationships, you know, those that you know, if you think about your, your wedding list, that's kind of your close circle, whereas on Facebook you can have you know, thousands LinkedIn same again, and and what they really kicked into and and also like, Who are you going to call for your free burger? Do you tell them? You know, you will my boss, but what for sacrifice? I think it was great. It was such a good, but I just thought that they was very bold, you know, to go, you know, even in 2009 2010 because, you know, Facebook wasn't, wasn't what it is now. And I just Yeah, I thought that was very clever. And the way that they'd sort of kicked into that cycle because it was very simple call to action. Anybody could do it. All you had to do was prove you deleted 10 friends and you get a free Whopper and hit me you know, who knows? Maybe on a behavioural level it made people think like, actually, you know, yeah, you're worth eating for a burger.

Peter Sumpton

I think I'd put my hand up and go, yeah, that's fine. I know. We're still mates. Just delete me. Like if you want that Whopper that we're just, I'm comfortable with that level of friendship. In fact, if you're going to tell someone, you're going to delete them for the burger, and they're happy with it, then you've got that level of relationship that's worth keeping offline really. To be fair. One thing first of all, Emma's not crafty. She's from Steven is just you know what the hell's going on. So I'll send you the link camera afterwards to see what's going on. But it's putting Stevenage on the map that most seller in Stevenage top for grey say you're winning on every level. But what's what's interesting to me is the fact that you said like what Burger King do is out there and it isn't and it you see a lot of innovative things that they do in terms of how they promote themselves and how they get in front of mass market. And but yet McDonald's is the market leader and they can't Get close to McDonald's. So like what's with that? Surely, in our marketing brain, it says that we have the most innovative, the most clever, the most backlog showed the best piece of comms, which is based on research, and it's a bit risky. And it's out there because no one's doing what we do. yet. We can't close this market leader.

Em Wilson

But I don't I think they they differentiate like, you know, they're very different. And, you know, you It's a bit like, you know, cat or dog, isn't it McDonald's or Burger King? You're either one or the other. And, you know, for me if I could have a Burger King burger with a McDonald's fries, and a KFC gravy like that? To be honest, because I'm from Birmingham, so chips and gravy is a standard. Hey, look,

Peter Sumpton

I'm more northern than you are. So don't come with your chips and gravy here. Like literally, we live on chips and gravy. It's like the sea is the river mercy? Yes. And

Em Wilson

it's really rubbish

that I found if anyone finds on that, because

my waistline doesn't, it'd be quite nice every now

and then. And but yeah, so I think I think, but they're also doing a lot of, you know, again, and they're sort of building those partnerships, aren't they? I mean, again, I don't know much about banking and McDonald's, where they're going with a marketing strategy, I have to have a look at that. But like, you are seeing more, so they did that whole thing where I can't one of them did a thing. Like, if you buy a burger, we'll give a load of money to charity.

Peter Sumpton

Yeah, I think that's Burger King again.

Em Wilson

And then McDonald's will like go to Burger King, want them to give all the money. So that was quite nice, you know, friendly, sort of competitive collaboration in a way. And but I think I think, you know, they are they are very different. They stand for very different things. I think the products are quite, you know, although they're still burgers, whatever, they are different. And so I think, yeah, it's again, it's sort of standing in that sort of in, you know, being what you are, and being okay with it and not trying to be a me to type thing I like I've got, you know, I think a lot of brands are now moving into this sort of social responsibility space. And you said about how brands have no, they've got an awful lot of power and influence and liking at the moment is seeing more and more brands actually moving into that, and sort of space quite confidently. And so, you know, we talked about Superbowl earlier. So Pepsi was one that I was thinking about at the time, because they sponsored Superbowl, like 23 years. And then one year they did it and of course more fast by the fact they didn't. They did they got more press for it. And But what was interesting was actually decided that year to spend that money on that. It was like a grant effectively, the projects, you know, if you had some good project, you could you could go to them and ask for money. Problem was it then died to death about 10 months later, because of that it was covered in fraud allegation? So actually did the more harm because at the end of it, but that's because it wasn't done properly. Yeah, you know, and all due diligence, should we say? Yeah, but, but yeah, I thought, you know, it was quite a bold move to put that money behind a behind the statement. And but you see a lot of companies now now doing that, and what we've seen this year, I think, more than than than other years, potentially, or certainly, perhaps I've just become more aware of it more in my, you know, like when you're buying a car and then all you see is car adverts. Maybe that's why. And, you know, there's a lot of companies brands are now putting their foot down and saying, you know, this is what we this is what we stand for, this is what we and this is what we're doing, to sort of actually show that it's more than worse.

Peter Sumpton

And that that for me is is the the pivot point. For me. It's the, this is what we're doing to show that that's our that's what we believe because and this, you know, you might have different feelings on this. But when you see logos change to have rainbows in the background, or you see them change to support something fantastic. I'm not saying any of that isn't fantastic. What I'm saying is that this month, absolutely, yeah, but what happens when you move that rainbow? Is that not important anymore, or not important enough to be in your logo, it just opens a whole connotation that you don't you don't need and you can support things without being all ballsy about it. People will get to know about it. And the people that you want to know about it will because they're the same type of people and the people that you want to draw in

Em Wilson

Yeah, no, totally. I I think for me, you know a lot of people get caught out on this in terms of you know, a logo change so well it's not you know, that's not that's not action. I think going back you know what I'm finding is we're now in the digital you know, we're absolutely in the digital age and we you know, our marketing and since you know early noughties or whatever, and really is when it when it took off, but I think what we're seeing Now it's because everything is digitised. We're losing trust. And so it is that that, you know, everyone's talking about value and integrity and authenticity, we can use all the buzzwords, but fundamentally, you know, the results speak for themselves. So I'd much rather, you know, be working with a company that has, you know, proven their culture and can prove in their case study, and all of that sort of stuff, that they're actually doing tangible things, rather than just, you know, sprinkling some gifts on a logo once in a blue moon,

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