The International Dental Student – From Ukraine to Egypt to Slovakia – IC047

Protrusive Dental Podcast

Dental Student in THREE different countries?!

This is a story of grit and determination. I hope that it will allow us all to reconnect with that burning desire we once had to enter our profession.

In this episode, we meet Nav, AKA the_stu_Dent who has had the craziest journey as a Dental Student. Not only defined as a mature student, but as a British born overseas one now working his way to qualifying in Slovakia, with hopes of eventually returning to the UK where he wants to practice full time in the near future.

https://youtu.be/wK1INeI_gdQ

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Check out this entertaining episode, where we uncover what makes the_stu_Dent tick and why he ended up pursuing Dentistry with such determination, the highs and lows, and how he ended up trying at 3 different Universities in 3 different countries, just to fulfill his dreams.

Need to Read it? Check out the Full Episode Transcript below!

Highlights
01:35 – Nav, the-stu-dent Introduction
04:25 – Why Ukraine and what year did The-stu-dent enter?
09:18 – How did Egypt come about?
14:16 – Failure was not an option
16:24 – What happened when The-stu-dent visited Egypt first-time around?
19:14 – 3rd STOP – Slovakia.
21:54 – What are the fees like in Slovakia?
25:13 – What was the decision behind choosing Slovakia over alternative countries in the EU?
27:15 – What has The-Students experience of Slovakia been like, and how much clinical exposure do you get?
30:58 – Are you working part-time to fund your dentistry?
35:17 – What are The-Stu-dents final words of Wisdom?

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If you liked this episode, you will also like PS002 – Adhesive Dentistry for Beginners

Click below for full episode transcript:

Jaz's Introduction: Imagine being a mature dental student who has to go to study in Ukraine. And then you realize actually the course you're on actually was potentially a fake course, and then you had to go to Egypt.

Jaz’s Introduction:
And then for one reason or another, which we will reveal on this podcast, you end up then moving, transferring to Slovakia, and it’s now been something like seven years, but you’re only still in your third year.

Sounds crazy. I know, but trust me, this guy, Nav Bhatti. His desire and his hunger to get into dentistry is amazing. It’s really admirable and I think he’s got a really funny story if he doesn’t mind me saying this. It’s funny because, like, he’s the type of guy who’s very happy go lucky. He’s very straight talking.

He’s humble and someone who you can look back and laugh about it. But he’s been through a real tough time with all these countries. And I have so much respect for, again, once again, for his desire and his hunger. And so now he’s in a good place in Slovakia, but it makes for a fantastic episode. I think guy’s in for a real treat, something a little bit different.

This is the kind of episode that you listen to once you’ve had a really hard day at work. And maybe you’re not ready for like, immediate dentine sealing and deep margin elevation and air particle abrasion. You actually just want to just listen to a protrusive podcast that’s a bit more light and you’re just curious.

You’re curious as to what leads a dental student from country to country to country in the pursuit of their dental degree. So I hope you enjoy this interview with Nav Bhatti and I’ll catch you in the outro.

Main Episode:
Nav Bhatti, aka The Student, the most international dental student ever, which there must be a record and you must have broken every single record. So where this stems from, let’s dive right into it. Okay. What is your story, man? How do you even begin to tell your treacherous journey through dentistry? And God bless you, a couple of years away from qualifying. But how have you come? You’re in Slovakia. You’ve been in Egypt. You’ve been in Ukraine. God, you know, God bless Ukraine. What’s happening, man?

[Nav]
I’ll tell you what, it’s been a crazy, crazy story. I mean, I’m 37. So it goes to show that there’s a lot that’s happened beforehand. That’s kind of given its hand as to why dentistry and then the journey in itself. But if I was to quickly sum it up for you, I was doing a completely different life before this.

So I was a national account manager. I qualified from Brunel university in West London. I was doing economics and business finance. I came out there, worked for Heinz, for example, worked for Unilever. My account managed grocery stores as big as Morrisons online, such as Domestos and Cif, which everyone has in their household.

Dentistry was never like, no one would ever piece that together. But I actually have a brother in law of mine, who’s a big fan of the Protrusive Dental Podcast as well. So shout out to Dr. Nasser as well. He would always turn up in the nicest cars. And as a youngster, when I used to see that, I was like, hey, do you know what? I want a piece of that action.

So dentistry was kind of always there. And I’d always taken an interest in sort of with the Asian background of be a doctor or a dentist as you grow up, missing the mark in my A levels. After going through account management for a few years, I kind of realized I was contracting quite a lot.

So I was in for six months, out for three months, in for six months, out for three months, and it became a bit stagnant.

[Jaz]
And when you were out for three months, there was no income. Is that how it worked?

[Nav]
Essentially. Yeah. I mean, the six months that were paying on contracted work was decent. Don’t get me wrong, but it was never enough to make you feel as though you were comfortable. You didn’t have anything that you need to a pension long term. It does kind of weigh you thin a bit. And then it was my mum, my saving grace, who turned around and said, look, why don’t you look into pursuing medicine or dentistry?

Cause you wanted to do it when you were younger anyway. So I did what anybody else does in the world and jumped online, looked at anywhere that would take somebody like myself to study dentistry. And I found unfortunately an agency, which many other people would probably say the same thing that essentially sold us a dream and said, come along to Ukraine, of all places, the fees aren’t too bad, very affordable, and do it in five years.

Not only that, but if you have a certain degree, we can even skip a couple of years, put you into like the second or third year.

[Jaz]
Now this agency, was it targeting British nationals who wanted dentistry? Like what was the angle?

[Nav]
Pretty much, pretty much. I mean, the company itself is registered in the UK itself. So the key demographic are the guys that didn’t quite make it into medicine dentistry. And obviously, as you know, now, with the UCAT and then the competition, the limited places in medicine and dentistry, UK students are dying to get into medicine dentistry. So they are very desperate to do that.

And I feel they do prey on that. I wouldn’t really say they use that as a target audience. They kind of see it as that’s their food really. So it’s sad.

[Jaz]
And what year was this Nav? Because obviously with what’s happening with Ukraine, Russia, I mean, what year was that? And also you must’ve considered like Valencia and what’s your Debrecen is another one in Hungary, right?

[Nav]
Yeah.

[Jaz]
That’s a quite popular one. So why did you choose Ukraine again? What year was it?

[Nav]
Okay. So this was 2018. And the reason why it was very simple with the places like Spain, Hungary, et cetera, you’re not going to get anything for less than 14 grand up. Right. I know, for example, annually, that’s correct.

Yeah. So tuition fees are high in the other UK. And then obviously if you don’t have a student loan paying for that, you really do have to depend on either your own savings or maybe the bank of mom and dad, which unfortunately I don’t have access to at such great lengths. So they were happy to help me.

But, the only thing that was accommodating of that was Ukraine. And that’s the reason why I, and so many other people ended up in Ukraine because their fees were around, I think, three grand a year. So really and truly it should have been alarm bells for me at that point. You know, it’s a five year course.

You can skip a couple of years if you want. It’s only three grand a year. I should have started thinking, hey, something dodgy going on. But I think when you’re like-

[Jaz]
How does the company get money from this? So, as an introducer, that company who connected you to this pathway into Ukraine. I’m just fascinated. What’s their business model? How did they get money from this?

[Nav]
I’ll be honest with you. I think from what I’ve kind of uncovered, I don’t want to say too much and then put too many people under the bus here. But I’m pretty sure they’re in cahoots with the university because it’s a private uni.

So probably is a case of they just set the uni up themselves, signed a couple of things off with some people on the inside with the government and essentially being able to run an educational institute that quote unquote teaches dentistry and medicine. So I think the bulk of that tuition fee goes to the agency and then a bit of it goes off to paying the staff. Listen, I’m just spit balling here by feel as though that’s probably how he’s the way it was run. So that’s how it went.

[Jaz]
Okay. So how did it go in Ukraine from 2018 to what year? Like 2020?

[Nav]
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 2020. So it was a bit of a weird one. I mean, I kind of went in there knowing what dentistry kind of should be, again, lucky to have exposure with my brother in law. So when I went in there and realized that we were studying very weird subjects, sometimes in university, which was a high school, essentially, that was shared with high schoolers. Well, we just took some of the private classrooms. Then also I’d ask questions like, when are we going to start working on phantom heads?

When are we going to the simulator rooms, et cetera. And because I’d never got any answers for that. And it was kind of like, oh, next year or next semester. I kept on digging. I’m quite tenacious when it comes to that. I quickly realized this isn’t a real university, so to speak. So how it went-

[Jaz]
Oh my goodness.

[Nav]
Yeah. How it went in Ukraine was terrible. Best way to describe it. We were doing online classes before Covid, for example, which was like a thing for them. And then when, obviously when Covid hit, everybody just went home and it was just a shambles really. I kind of stayed there in-

[Jaz]
Weren’t there any students in your senior years, like you were in your first year of that dental school, quote unquote, wasn’t there any fourth years, fifth years to see the clinic? Weren’t there any clinics?

[Nav]
This is the thing. I genuinely feel, and again, not like going to name anyone here. I genuinely feel.

[Jaz]
You haven’t named any company.

[Nav]
Yeah, I mean, I can name the company. I don’t mind doing that. But the people per se in the fifth year. I feel as though one, the cohort wasn’t very big. I think our cohort was probably the biggest one. So we kind of entered in that year. The guys beforehand, I feel as though we’re almost sworn to secrecy about the whole thing. It was kind of like, if we stay quiet. We ended up getting a degree and then we can just leave with it. And then, either take the ORE or start with medicine.

And here’s the kicker. If you now Google through the GMC’s website, so the general medical council. And if you look at this university, which was Dnipro medical institute, it’s now actually officially blacklisted. So that’s how bad that uni is. So these people, I feel as though they got out at the right time and they stayed quiet because they didn’t want to bring too much to it. But that’s how bad it was. So nobody in the fifth year was going to tell us that this is dodgy. Something wrong is going on here because it’s self preservation.

[Jaz]
So close to getting their degree and just finding some sort of work for themselves. But wow, how scary is this for the world of medicine, dentistry and patient care and all the ethical things that we think of?

[Nav]
Exactly. Exactly. It’s really shouldn’t be sold in the way that they were selling it. And to be honest with you, that’s the quickest piece of advice I can give anybody who is even trying to start on that journey. Don’t do what I did. Don’t just take someone’s word for it, but go out to the country. It might be a bit of a headache, but it’s worth it. It really is because I didn’t do that and I regret it really.

[Jaz]
I think this will help someone like loads of people, as you know, want to do dentistry, as you said, and then they’re kind of looking at their options. And then so just if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is like with everything in life.

But you know, in your position, I totally feel for you, man. Like, you wanted to save some bucks, which I totally understand. I totally understand because of the position you were in and what a disappointment that ended up being. And then COVID came. So what then happened, what was Egypt the next step and how did that happen?

[Nav]
So this is the thing. I mean, I feel as though, thank God, God’s always watching. And I feel as though I really was put on a path. So there was myself, one other guy out of our entire year group. And in fact, in our entire university, that kind of was taking dentistry a little bit seriously. So we ended up getting a private tutor who’s from Syria.

So Dr. Khaled was a big mentor of mine. And we would essentially we pay out of our own pocket to get work with him. He was the only guy that had a simulator-esque lab within his own clinic. And he was teaching us-

[Jaz]
In Syria?

[Nav]
Uh, he’s from Syria. No, he had it in Ukraine. So he’d moved over to Ukraine and he was kind of like teaching there. And I think it was a lab tech slash dentist at the same time. So it’s Ukraine, anything goes. So he kind of became quite close. We became good friends, I’d say. And then I sort of said to him, look, this is the situation. I’m worried. I then understood, by the way, you have to also realize something in my naivety, completely.

Didn’t have a clue about the ORE. So all I saw was just, okay, dentistry. Finish and become a dentist. That was it. As you stay in places like Ukraine, you start realizing, okay, I actually have to do an ORE. Okay. The ORE is not actually that easy. So I need my education to be good. So these are the reasons why I was trying to find answers.

So anyway, Dr. Khaled was the guy that turned around to me and said, look, if you’re really looking to take it serious. There’s only two countries in the world I recommend that you go to. And one was Egypt and the other one was Lebanon. So of all places, I was thinking, right, well, yeah, I’m not going to do Lebanon. They’re just with all the situation that’s going on over there. Research-

[Jaz]
Lebanese food culture and-

[Nav]
And allegedly the women, but I can’t say much about that. So, but yeah, no, I was told that Egypt was the place to go. So I researched heavily into that. And the issue that then becomes quite a bit of a trend later on with Egypt. They’re terrible with emails. They’re terrible with phone calls. So I had very limited information and then kind of got to a point where I was like, right, I need to just go out there and see it for myself. So we skipped down to, I think the end of 2019 out of my entire cohort and everyone from year one to year five at the time, bear in mind, I think I was going to be at three then.

I was basically the heretic of university going around telling everyone like we’ve got to leave and we’ve got to find somewhere else. I had the agents threatening me, we’ll give you your money back, leave. We’ll give you a transcript, but get out of it. We don’t want you here because basically you’re bad for business.

There were only two other people that turned around and said, we’re going to join your journey, your crazy journey. And they actually ended up coming with me to Egypt to check it all out. Looked great.

[Jaz]
You were like some sort of Messiah. Like you were the enlightened one, right? And they’re like, this guy’s onto something. And then all these naysayers are there like, Oh, well, who is this crazy guy? And were you all right?

[Nav]
Yeah. And the thing is? I’m quite an arrogant individual. So even now I kind of low key sit there and go, told you so. Like, I’m not sitting there like, yeah, I hope the best for [inaudible], I actually am like, cause we went through so much.

I have to tell you Jaz, it wasn’t fun. It wasn’t easy. There was a lot of traveling. There was a lot of expenses. When I went out there and found the uni was great. When we came back, it was a nightmare getting our documents, getting them signed, notarized, etc. Like, it was almost impossible.

We eventually got to Egypt. I had to take two cats over with me as well. I had all my suitcases. The journey itself was crazy. We didn’t know about the COVID travel situation. So we ended up having to sleep at the airport.

[Jaz]
Was COVID a legit thing yet? Like-

[Nav]
Yeah.

[Jaz]
There was no lockdowns and that right at this point.

[Nav]
It was the end of 2020, right? So COVID had really taken its toll, but because I’d not traveled yet, I didn’t know what to expect. I was basically just stuck in Ukraine. I hadn’t gone home for two and a half years bearing in mind. Right.

[Jaz]
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So all throughout lockdown, you were in Ukraine?

[Nav]
Yeah. And prior to this-

[Jaz]
Everything was locked down. You weren’t even learning because uni was shut.

[Nav]
Pretty much. I mean, they had online classes, I said, but it was a joke. And just a little kicker as all for you. My parents sent me to Ukraine with this secret, it was kind of like a, look, mate, you’re in your thirties, if your balls this up, we can’t like, take the flat for it.

So go there for a couple of years and make sure you’re good enough to become a dentist. Then we’ll tell the family. So for two and a half years, I hadn’t seen my siblings. And like there were all sorts of rumors. Like, is he dead? Is he married off to someone and not told the family?

Is he in prison? Is he this? Is he that? And I had to just keep it quiet with everyone. So it was just really awkward getting-

[Jaz]
With the respect. It’s getting hilarious.

[Nav]
The story is wild. I’m telling you, like, I’m giving you the top line of it, but it was insanity in his finest, and I couldn’t really communicate with anyone, but my parents in the UK. So I was playing in a football team before I went to Ukraine and I’m AWOL from there. So they were like, where the hell is this guy gone? Obviously I was working before that. Where’s he gone? Friends, all the rest of it. All of a sudden I’m just nonexistent. So I’m out.

[Jaz]
Why can you tell people that, Hey, you know what? I’m just going to take like a kind of sabbatical and do like this educational journey. What was that like a taboo thing? Or was it like you want to come back and surprise them? Like, hey, look at me. Sonic three has come kind of thing.

[Nav]
I guess that would have been really nice, but the honest, honest truth was just, I think my parents fear factor and mine as well, collectively. I think what we didn’t want to do because obviously dentistry is a completely different beast. What I didn’t want to do is kind of go there, spend a year or two and tell the whole world, yeah, I’m doing this.

And then God forbid fail and come back. And with all due respect, in the way that our culture is set up, unfortunately, it can be quite judgy. The last thing that you want is kind of like, 30 years and then, you got nowhere with it. As I said-

[Jaz]
What were you thinking? Whatever that kind of stuff, that kind of mentality, bad duas and stuff. And Nazar and all that kind of stuff, evil eye, that kind of stuff. For those who know, who know.

[Nav]
Exactly that. Not even going to try to like sugarcoat it, but that’s basically what it was. So, I mean, if anything, it kind of forged me into the resilient person I am today. And I thank my parents for that. Thank God for that as well. But, again, we were taking it to the end of 2020. I remember we got to Kyiv airport to leave, to go to Egypt for our first trek there to see what it was like. And we got to the front of the queue and they were like, right, where’s your COVID papers?

And we were like, I can still remember, and my friend would vouch for this. I kind of tried to be the big man. And I was like we’re from the UK. We have a British passport. Surely we’re fine. And they were like, it doesn’t work like that, mate. Like get in line. We can reschedule your flight for tomorrow.

You need a 24 hour COVID test. So. We had to sleep in the airport that night, get a COVID test, go the next day, missed our hotel, had to rebook, crazy, crazy, crazy stuff. But we saw what Egypt for what it was.

[Jaz]
But at this point you’d agreed with the Egyptian university that you’re going to enroll and it’s going to happen kind of thing.

[Nav]
No. This is what I meant earlier. They’re terrible with emails. So communication, they’re rubbish.

[Jaz]
So you legit thought, okay, Ukraine’s not working. You need to take massive action. I love people who take massive action and you decided, okay, me and the only two guys who believe me, I’m going to go.

Everything’s on you now because these guys are like, okay, I’m just following Nav, right? So you’re there with the two cats and two suitcases, whatever, and with two guys. Everything’s in twos, like Noah’s ark, except everything like in cats and suitcases and stuff, right? And you’re trying to get to Egypt and be like, hey, just knock on the door. Be like, hey, I’m getting a couple of dental students here, like, was that the plan?

[Nav]
Essentially, I think we were so desperate. When you get this desperate, you just end up doing crazy stuff. So I remember we went there. They’ve got like a foreign students office. We met with the president of the office and she was like, yeah, you guys, no problem.

Just bring these documents. We’ll get you in. So we were like super happy. We ended up kind of going back. As I said, it was a headache getting our documents. We eventually got everything and then we flew out and then we went there. That’s when he just turned to rubbish. So I think we got there in. I want to say around January.

No, it was new year. Sorry. It was new years, 2021, we landed like a week later at the office and unfortunately there was a new person who was the president of the office. So our luck just started going the other way and they were like, no, we can’t get you in and this problem and this problem. And eventually it was, I think, I want to say March or April that they took us in and they said, unfortunately, you have to sit one of the first year subjects again.

And then from September, you’ll be in the second year. So you’ve got to bear in mind, we’re essentially third year students going back into first year and doing it all over. So that’s kind of the Egypt leg of things. And there’s a lot more, but I’m not going to go into it, but we started doing, doing that in Egypt and in all fairness to Egypt, I think it was out of the three, because obviously I’m here in Slovakia, it was probably the best in terms of education and their hands on approach and working with patients and exposure, but in terms of having their stuff together and making it easy for students.

I would say for any international student, unless you know, Arabic, stay clear of it. And unless you’re comfortable with the culture, stay clear of it as well. But, we were out there for a couple of years. We ended up in the third year there as well.

[Jaz]
And then you actually went through, I mean, this is wow. So you do three years in Ukraine, you figure it out and then you go to Egypt on the whim, just hoping, and then you do first year again and then you do second year and then you enter third year in Egypt.

[Nav]
Yes. And the reason behind this, is it was a bit-, Brexit was going on around that time before we went from Ukraine to Egypt. And there was a lot of whispers in the wind that they’re going to get rid of the EU recognition of degrees. So people would have to do the ORE regardless where they went. So that’s why we ended up with Egypt because we said, well, if we have to do it anyway, we might as well go somewhere. We’re going to get the best education.

Probably our fault because we didn’t really read between the lines. It was more whispers, but it wasn’t anything official. And obviously then we found out that extended it for another five years and EU recognition was still on the table. So that’s why when we were in the third year, we thought, right, we can do fourth year, fifth year, sixth year in Egypt still. Cause you need to do six years there.

[Jaz]
So it’s a six year course in Egypt.

[Nav]
Yeah, it’s officially a five, but you have to do your sixth as an internship, which is just basically working with patients all day, just to receive the degree. So that was the thing in our head. We were like, we can do the extra three years in Egypt.

Sorry, between two and three years for the ORE on average. So it’s anything between five or six years to work completely UK. And there’s a risk of failing. And then there’s the fees and the GDC, and then you’re not working with any patients in that time. So there was lot of advantages and disadvantages of it, or we can skip town, start again with the EU. That’s why we’re now here in Slovakia.

[Jaz]
Was this your idea again, Nav?

[Nav]
Unfortunately, yeah. So they probably hate me for this. All right.

[Jaz]
Because those two guys followed, yeah?

[Nav]
Yeah. Again, I think the group’s growing, to be honest with you. So people are like slowly, slowly coming along. But I think now we’ve kind of figured it out. We’re here now. And unfortunately, although we should have been going into the fourth year, we started getting the third year. So I feel like we’re like the Kings of the third year. So we’re in the third year now.

[Jaz]
So now you went to Slovakia, but this time you are allowed to enter the third year?

[Nav]
Yes. Yes. So, and that was our push.

[Jaz]
There’s a good part of this. Okay. Fine.

[Nav]
Yeah. So I mean, it would be nice to go into the fourth year, but it is what it is. I mean, we’re in the third year now and that kind of brings us to where we are. And, currently sitting in Kosice.

So Slovakia is second city. And, we’re into our second semester of third year. And yeah, we’re still alive. So, that’s the journey.

[Jaz]
Well, shout out to Slovakia. Slovakia is the ninth biggest cohort of Protruserati. Would you believe it? I work at one stage, it’s probably slipped down to like 12th or something, but like it was up there. Like you wouldn’t think like Slovakia, I would have put it, 20 something, 30 something, but these are Slovakians keep coming back to Protrusive, which is awesome. So great to have you on.

[Nav]
Yeah. I’m going to try to get more of those guys from my uni onto the channel as well. So for sure, man. We need that family to grow. So, yeah, Slovakia.

[Jaz]
Thanks for coming on the show, genuinely, but there’s still so much I want to know. So we know about why dentistry. We know about a little bit about your journey so far, how you ended up from Ukraine to Egypt to Slovakia and Slovakia is a five year course?

[Nav]
Six years here. Here it’s a dental medicine course, so it’s an MDDr I believe is the title of the degree itself.

[Jaz]
So you basically got three and a half years left?

[Nav]
Essentially. Yeah. So it’s painful. Okay. It’s painful.

[Jaz]
It’s okay. Look, you live once, right? You live once and you are doing something and the desire and the hunger you have, it’s all about that.

And I can see that, that fire in your belly when you came to visit me at the practice, man, more power to you. How many people just live their life? Just doing the same old thing every day and not feeling like they’re living life on their terms. You, my friend, are living life on your terms. Now, whether you’re right or wrong or whatever, it doesn’t matter.

You’re living it by your terms and you’re not going to have regrets because whatever you do, you’re just going to give it your shot. So I highly admire and I respect that. So don’t feel as though, oh, no, I know you don’t, but I know you’re just saying it to everyone. But some people thinking, oh my God, what a crazy journeys.

That is not for me. But people have to appreciate that. Dentists have to appreciate that. If you manage to get in first time and you’re in a nice European dental school, fine, good for us. Right? And American Dental School, but, but sometimes you have to take an alternative path and that’s what you’re doing. And so, massive respect to you.

[Nav]
Humble. Humble.

[Jaz]
What are the fees like in Slovakia? That’s thing you wanna cover.

[Nav]
Okay, so when we started, they were at 11 and half thousand euros per year. First you can pay that in into installments first. I think it’s 11,000 actually. 11 or 11, 000. So that’s for dentistry for medicine, I think is 10 or nine and a half roughly.

But this year, because of the influx of international students, they’ve actually increased the price. So from this September onwards, it’s going up to 13, 000 euros per year for dentistry. And I believe 12, 000 euros per year for medicine. So I would say it’s just in the fringe of accessible now for UK based students, because it’s close enough to tuition fees in the UK.

But I feel as though uni is getting aware of the amount of students that are coming over. And I think this is going to be a common theme around the EU now, where so many people are traveling out of the UK into the EU to study. Because of the lack of seats, it’s just one of those things that people just going to cotton on to it and realize it can just bump the prices up and up and up.

And then I feel as though people probably need to get into it ASAP rather than delay it. But obviously you don’t want to rush a decision as big as this either.

[Jaz]
And you have to do the course in English, Slovakian, how does that work?

[Nav]
Yeah. So quite fortunate. So Egypt was officially an English taught subject or taught course even, but because of the majority being Arab students, the teachers would naturally just speak Arabic.

Whereas here in Slovakia, there is a year group for Slovak students, the year group for English speaking. So this is completely dedicated to English speaking students. So it’s quite fortunate in that sense. So anybody who is looking to come over and is worried a bit about the language, nothing to worry about there.

However, you do need to learn Slovak as a language over the course of two years. And that’s basically infused into the core of your subjects that you have to ask before you get your degree, but it’s pretty easy.

[Jaz]
I mean, why not? If you’re living in a country for that many years, why not learn the beauty of the language and appreciate the culture? I mean, how many languages do you speak?

[Nav]
So Urdu and Punjabi, they’re interchangeable, but I would say those two roughly, and I speak English, of course. I was getting better at Arabic, my Egyptian friends are probably watching this would probably say, no, I wasn’t, but for sure I was picking things up and play football out there as well.

So I got in with the locals, which was quite helpful. I would say those are kind of the four or three and a half that I can speak. And then obviously now I’m learning Slovak, but I’ll be completely honest with you, it is insanely hard. I think Russian was easier because we were learning Russian when we were in Dnipro in Ukraine.

That was easier than Slovak. Slovak is crazy difficult. So, anybody who is trying to come here, be warned. But as for me, yeah, those are the subjects that I can speak.

[Jaz]
No, good. More power to you. Learn Slovak, my friend. Why not? Well, if not now, then when? So, but based on those, like recently I was in Valencia. I was at the European Alliance Society conference. We’re doing an IPR workshop and I love how they say Valencia. They say Valentia, which is pretty cool. So, I was in Valencia. It was pretty cool. And then I remember that lots of dentists were DMing me saying, Hey, I went to uni here.

Hey, I went to uni here. So lots of people end up going to Valencia or Debrecen. Maybe I’m saying it wrong. Maybe it’s in Hungary. I know you touched on it already, but the fees, are they that much different to the Slovakian fees? And so what I’m trying to get to is before you consider Slovakia, what was the sort of decision matrix that you made to choose Slovakia rather than potentially Valencia, Hungary, some of these, Czech, I don’t know, some of these other places?

[Nav]
Yeah. Yeah. I think most of it is budget wise. So Czech, I think was around 15 K in euros, that is per year. Don’t quote me on these figures. Spain for a fact was, it was either Madrid or Valencia. I can’t remember which one I called. And they said 21 grand a year. Poland was about 15, 14 to 15 grand as well. And then the other thing is as well. My decision was kind of driven by the uni’s accepting transfers as well. So this is like the big filter, if anything, if I was a fresh student going in.

Yeah. I think it’d be a bit more easy for me to kind of find a country that works for me. And then, I’ll just take it from there and start from fresh because of me coming from Egypt. So they’re not on the ECTS system, the European credit transfer or something, whatever it is. I had to go in with their credits, which may not be recognized.

So it was really narrowing down the filter. So I worked with an agency called Europe studies. So they were very helpful as a lady. They’re called Evie. I think she’s based out of Greece and she kind of did all the legwork and said this is the unit that’s really going to work.

Other than that, I can’t guarantee you a transfer anywhere else. And I thought, I’ve done this for years now. The last thing I want to do is have the hope of going somewhere great, like Spain, for example, but then they say, you’ve got to start from the first year, which it would have just killed all of us. So that’s kind of the driving factors. One is the budget and two, just to make sure that they would take the transfer. And that was the reason why we ended up where we are now.

[Jaz]
So two of you went from Ukraine to Egypt. How many of you went from Egypt to Slovakia in your year?

[Nav]
So in total, there was three. So there was three in the first instance. So myself, two others from Ukraine to Egypt, and then they ended up, yeah, being four from Egypt to Slovakia. So now there’s four. So God forbid there’s any more moves, but if there were, it would probably be five and then so on and so forth.

[Jaz]
Wow. Okay. So what is your advice then in terms of, I mean, Ukraine is pretty much, in such a sorry state, God bless it. Obviously it’s not something that you can really consider. They’re probably not even running unis there at the moment with the war and stuff. So that’s not an option anymore. What has your experience of Slovakian dental school been like and how much clinical exposure do you get? And it sounds like, from your instance stuff that you’re fairly happy actually.

[Nav]
Yeah, I would say that I’m overall, I’m very happy with the university in itself. The experience I’m getting is great. It’s again, because they teach dentistry, not essentially as a BDS, but as a Doctor of Dental Medicine.

They’ve really, really incorporated a lot of medical subjects into our degree. For example, I’ve studied neurology, not just neurology with the trigeminal nerve as the main focus point, and that’s it, but more so neurology as a whole, where we’ve been looking at gynecology, for example, which you’d almost argue, you could teach that as part of maybe internal med, but not entirely its own subject.

We’re doing ophthalmology, for example, the list goes on. So there’s a lot of medical related subjects. So for those that are looking to come over, you just got to bear in mind. The first three to four years is you’re almost a medic, if that makes sense, but then kind of into the fourth year, they’d introduce you to the patients.

So as of next year, officially, I’ll be working with patients. And I’ve validated that myself. I’ve gone to classes where fourth years are sitting in there. Working on patients. The classes are a lot more smaller in comparison to maybe Egypt, where there were 20, 25 of us, two professors walking around and then about, a hundred patients waiting outside the door here, it’s a lot more, I would say intimate, it might be you and two others, and then your professor, your teacher working on a patient taking turns and working the way through it again.

I would find it very hard to compare any country thus far with the practical experience that we had in Egypt, but I do believe that what they teach in Slovakia in terms of that hands on practical experience is enough to get you going for your first year as a trainee dentist in the UK, eventually when that time comes.

And also I’ve heard from friends that you can actually sign up with the local dental hospitals that the university has affiliations with and work there in emergency hours. You won’t get paid for it. But you’ll get the exposure to loads of extractions, emergency, temporary fillings, all the rest of it. So, in that sense, there is enough here to provide you with what you need if you seek it.

And I think that’s a common theme as well with universities generally. They don’t spoon feed you everything, but if you ask for it, they usually do help. So this is no exception.

[Jaz]
So when you finished the sixth year in Slovakia, your plan is to come back to UK?

[Nav]
Finally, finally. Yes. That is the plan.

[Jaz]
I mean, I hope you get to taste that moment that day. And then does that involve an ORE for us, for us lacking trained?

[Nav]
Yeah. Thank God. It’s one of the exceptions. So on the GDC website, there’s an annex. So there’s a PDF that you can download. I pretty much know back to front now. I’ve seen this so many times where it gives you the list of exceptions or the list of universities and their degree titles from the EU that are exempt from doing the RE and this would be one of those that may change the subject to change.

I highly doubt it. I think the way that dentistry is in the UK and the NHS crisis and just generally me personally, I would say, I don’t think that it would change. I’ve kind of spoken to the likes of Eddie Crouch on Twitter, for example, we’ve had like informal to and fros. I think he is of the same thinking as all that.

Although they can talk about it, whether they’ll get rid of that exemption list, it was highly unlikely. So yeah, fortunately for us, we’d be able to come back and skip the ORA and just get straight into what is now the PLVE, I believe the name of it, which is our, vocational training equivalents.

Hopefully between six and 12 months and then from there, shoo up and be the next occlusal hype man out there in the world. So let’s see how it goes.

[Jaz]
Why not? So last couple of questions, actually, it’s obviously expensive. Everything you’re doing and you have some savings, et cetera. Maybe you’ve burned through, maybe you’re not, let’s not get into that. But are you working part time to fund your dentistry?

[Nav]
Okay. So I had a part time job, which was sort of online calls like surveys. So I could do that from where I am on the laptop. It was very mundane and it was very time consuming. And I found that I kind of spoke to my parents about it. And they said, look, just live like a hermit. Stay at home and basically eat at home, which is good. You learn how to cook, to be a bit more savvy with your money as well. And they said, look, we’ll fund you a little bit extra per week to get you by.

Oh, I’ll be honest with my budget. It’s about 50 quid a week. So, you can live off of that. This is not including rent that I can tell you sort of the rent that I’m paying at the moment is about sort of 300, 250 quid, 250 euros, roughly per month. Taking the bills into account and stuff. So anybody who’s looking to do this kind of journey, that’s the kind of budget you need and you can live off quite comfortably about 50 pound a week.

If you know how to cook, can you do part time work? Yes. Could you do it locally? If you know the language, otherwise just find maybe something that you can do on a laptop or remotely, so long as it’s not eating into your education. And I think that’s my parents biggest worry was, we don’t want you to be distracted so much, just trying to earn a living.

We’d rather take the sacrifice and that, you succeed here and then later on, you can just pay it back. So that’s kind of the agreement we’ve had, but anybody who is looking to do it, the options are there.

[Jaz]
Very nice. And I wish you all the best for that. Now, one thing we’re all dying to know is which is the best night out. Slovakia, easy up to Ukraine.

[Nav]
Here’s the thing, right? So I’m not like an outdoors kind of guy. You could ask anyone that knows me. The most exciting thing that I would do is I maybe hit a burger joint or like a pizza restaurant or something along those lines. So I hate being out too late, I’m basically an old man even when I was young I used to hate it as well. But from what I’m hearing Egypt, for example is a very because it’s culturally different men stick with men, women stick with women. There’s curfews, people don’t go out too late. It’s like cafes, like small cafes.

[Jaz]
Yeah. I can imagine a good night out in Egypt is like being in a cafe, doing shisha and some dates and just watching the sunrise in the early morning. That’s what I think people do there. They drink their green tea or whatever.

[Nav]
Pretty much, pretty much is. That’s pretty much how it is. And they love their football. So that that’s kind of their culture. Ukraine, I would say that the students that were there used to speak quite highly of it. But again, it was the cities that we went to, or bear in mind is all like Dnipro is not Kyiv because [inaudible] is not Bratislava, for example.

So we’re kind of like away from all the fun stuff, but I guess it really, really comes down to your cohort. So if you are alongside other people that you can get along with. So internationally, and they speak English for English speaking. You probably have a good time here as well.

I know a lot of people go out to the local town center here and have crazy nights out and they say it’s very safe. So if you ask the guys and the girls, they’ll all say it’s very safe here. I’ve had people say that they feel safer here than the UK. So, which I don’t think is very hard nowadays anyway.

So I’d say in terms of the night out, I think Slovakia at the moment probably takes it. Just because of what I’m hearing from everyone, but for me, a good night out is, as I say, pick up a slice of pizza somewhere and just go for a walk. So I’m a bit boring.

[Jaz]
Let’s answer this one. In terms of food, where was the best?

[Nav]
Egypt. Have you not seen that? Oh man, you got to see this. I’ve done a video of this, right? And there’s a picture of me in Ukraine and I’m like in shape. I look great. And then there’s a bit of cutaway to me in Egypt. And I don’t know. I think I put on something around 15 kg in that time in Egypt. The food’s insanely good. The problem is everything’s cheap as well and accessible. So food wise, Egypt’s nice.

[Jaz]
All that shawarma and everything.

[Nav]
Yeah, for sure. I was like getting in there with all the like restaurant owners as well. So everything was discounted. So the place called Chickenworks out there with Farooq, he’s giving me 20 percent off. I love that guy, but if I have any heart related issues, it’s his fault. So I’m just saying that now.

[Jaz]
Amazing. Well, now you’ve answered these big questions I had for you. Thanks for sharing. Thanks for being, make yourself vulnerable to share your journey. Thanks for inspiring so many people. Thanks for just telling us the truth. And one of the reasons I was happy to connect with you is I’ve watched so many videos, your real talk. I love it. I feel like you’re at this point now you’ve been through so much. So you know what? You’re just going to enjoy it. You’re going to speak your heart.

You’re going to get out this the other side and you’re going to be, okay, I gave it my best shot. So what are the final words or reflections that you have for the Protruserati listening and watching who thoroughly enjoyed, I’m sure, learning about your very fascinating journey. And we all wish you the very best in getting your dental degree.

[Nav]
I just say to everyone that is listening, first and foremost, just that was very lovely of you. I mean, that’s, I’m going to keep that, save that. I’ll probably play it over whenever I’m feeling down. So thanks very much. I would say to anyone listening and whoever’s kind of in your family of things, which I relate to massively, I would say it’s just never too late to follow anything you’re doing.

Be a dentistry, be outside of that. If there’s any decisions that you have in life, just don’t let the naysayers dictate as to what decisions you make in life and rather kind of just own it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, but if we don’t try, we never get. And then in all honesty, I think you don’t look at these big people such as yourself, even you’re a massive inspiration to so many people out there.

You could even say you were just, you’re just a dentist. And no one would have ever known you, but then you took that step to go out there and do what you’re doing now. And you know, 17, 18, 000 subscribers on YouTube and so many following you on social media, you took that step. So everyone can do it, and it’s just one of those things that I feel as though don’t let people make you feel as though you shouldn’t be doing it.

Go out there, prove them wrong. And then, and above all else, just have fun doing it. So, fingers crossed to everybody out there. My prayers are with you as well. And let’s all achieve our dreams together. And I hope the Protruserati can do that as a group. So that’s my final message.

[Jaz]
Amazing. You’ve inspired a generation, my friend. Thank you so much.

[Nav]
Humbled, humbled. Thank you for having me on my friend.

Jaz’s Outro:
Well, there we have it guys. I’m not sure how many of you will make it to this part, the ending, but I’ll tell you something funny. I love this guy so much. I offered him a job in Protrusive because I’m always looking to support dental students.

I want dental students to learn from Protrusive so they get to write the premium notes stuff, but I pay them. I pay them very well. And it’s really a win win to find a dedicated dental student and also to enhance the podcast experience as well. So after I hit the stop recording button, I said, now do Protrusive maybe for one or two years, see how you find it.

I think it’d be great for you in terms of helping you out in terms of his situation. So let’s see how this goes. This is early days. Maybe I shouldn’t even be revealing this on the podcast, but I am. I’m happy to be straight with you guys that maybe Nav is going to be helping us out to actually enhance or to maintain the premium notes that we’re used to and the CPD quizzes and helping out to make sure that Protrusive remains at the forefront of your dental journey.

As always, I want to thank the team, Erika for being the producer, and the quality control from Mari, Krissel, Gian, Emma, and maybe even Nav, who knows. Thank you once again for joining, and don’t forget, if you’re not already on Protrusive Guidance, remember it’s a free, it’s our free community, it’s the Protrusive Tribe.

It’s the Protruserati it’s the home of the nicest and geekiest dentists in the world. So head over to protrusive. app, request to join. We are quite strict about who joins, make sure that you are definitely who you say you are. So it takes a little while to get in, but once you’re in, it’s a nice, warm and fuzzy community of dentists learning and sharing and connecting from all over the world.

Thank you so much for listening again to this interference class and I’ll catch you same time, same place next week. Bye for now.