That’s Debatable! podcast

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22:08

Host Francesca Amiker sits down with directors Joe and Anthony Russo, producer Angela Russo-Otstot, stars Millie Bobby Brown and Chris Pratt, and more to uncover how family was the key to building the emotional core of The Electric State . From the Russos’ own experiences growing up in a large Italian family to the film’s central relationship between Michelle and her robot brother Kid Cosmo, family relationships both on and off of the set were the key to bringing The Electric State to life. Listen to more from Netflix Podcasts . State Secrets: Inside the Making of The Electric State is produced by Netflix and Treefort Media.…

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Welcome to ‘That’s Debatable!’, the weekly podcast of the Free Speech Union. Hosts Tom Harris and Jan Macvarish – both staffers at the FSU – talk about the free speech controversies that have erupted in the past week and interview some of the main protagonists in those dramas. Edited by Jason Clift. Please like, subscribe and share. Thank you.

95 episodes

That’s Debatable!

That’s Debatable! explicit

updated 4 days ago

Series home•Feed

95 episodes

#Society #Politics #News #Culture #Entertainment #Comedy #Free Speech Union

All episodes

That’s Debatable!

1
On Being Problematic 46:01

4 days ago46:01

46:01

In a major win for workplace free speech, the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) and the Prudential Regulation Authority (PRA) have abandoned plans to impose new diversity and inclusion rules on financial firms after strong pushback, including from the FSU. Had the proposals gone ahead, they would have placed sweeping new obligations on a significant portion of the UK’s financial sector. In January 2024, we responded to two parallel consultations ( here and here ), warning that the proposals would create a climate where employees felt unable to challenge radical progressive orthodoxies on a cluster of issues without fear of professional consequences. Our response to the FCA consultation was submitted via its online portal, but you can read our letter to the PRA here . We move on to discuss the case of Ben Woods, a member of the Free Speech Union (FSU), who has worked at Waitrose’s Henley branch in Oxfordshire for 25 years, having joined the supermarket as a teenager. However, after accusing its long-serving employee of misconduct over a dossier of more than 30 social media posts, the company has now swiftly suspended him. The case was reported in both The Telegraph and The Mail and you can support Ben’s s fundraiser page here . Thames Valley Police have admitted acting unlawfully in arresting an adult-education teacher at a local proclamation of the accession of King Charles in September 2022. Symon Hill, 47, was going home from church in Oxford on the Sunday morning three days after the death of Queen Elizabeth II when he found his way blocked by the ceremony. Following the public declaration of Charles as king, he called out from the back of the crowd: “Who elected him?” He then pursued legal action for wrongful arrest and has finally won his case, together with £2,500 in compensation. Now a trainee Baptist minister, Mr Hill (somewhat understatedly) said that he’d been “surprised” by the entire affair and by the two-and-a-half years it had taken the police to admit their mistake. We end the episode with a discussion on a report in The Telegraph that Donald Trump issued a sweeping executive order last Friday gutting the US Agency for Global Media (USAGM) – Voice of America’s parent agency – and several other government departments. ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift.…

That’s Debatable!

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Go Broke, Go Woke 41:34

11 days ago41:34

41:34

A man arrested for burning a copy of the Koran in Bradford will not face charges, following intervention by the Free Speech Union. The man arrived in Britain as an asylum-seeker and, ironically, he was fleeing religious persecution in a Muslim majority country. After he uploaded a video of himself burning a Koran in a symbolic stand for freedom of speech and against Islamic extremism, West Yorkshire Police reacted swiftly – not to protect his right to protest, but to arrest him on suspicion of committing a criminal offence. The FSU intervened immediately, instructing a solicitor and covering our member’s legal fees. After several months, the police have now told him they’ll be taking no further action. Freddie Attenborough, our Digital Communications Director, has written about the case at length for The Conservative Woman . We are encouraging our supporters to write to their MP to encourage them to support an amendment tabled by The Opposition to scrap Clause 18 of the Employment Rights Bill. Clause 18 is a dangerous escalation in speech policing, disguised as a way to ‘protect’ vulnerable workers. It will force British businesses to monitor customer conversations or risk being sued for ‘third-party harassment’. Next, two recent stories from Cardiff University could serve as a parable for all that’s going wrong in British higher education. Either that, or a “Go Broke, Go Woke” parody. In story one, the university has announced plans to cut 400 academic jobs . In story two, there’s now a mandatory EDI module for all first-year Cardiff students. In other words, at the same time as the university is trying to get rid of academics who could teach students to think critically about received wisdoms, it’s somehow found the money to help EDI zealots impose them as dogma. The module provides a comprehensive guide to EDI-speak. Out, for example, go such “microaggressions” as complimenting somebody on their English. Also out are any idioms with an offensive ‘origin story’. We end the episode with a round-up of forthcoming FSU events . ‘ That's Debatable! ’ is edited by Jason Clift.…

That’s Debatable!

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JD Vance's Valentine Speech 38:21

25 days ago38:21

38:21

In a remarkably frank speech at the Munich Security Conference, US Vice President JD Vance warned that the greatest threat to Western democracies is not external aggression, but the erosion of free speech within them. Britain, he argued, was leading the charge in policing thought, with other European nations close behind. Invoking the Cold War, Mr Vance said that the West once defined itself in opposition to regimes that criminalised dissent and censored ‘heretical’ views – but now its governments are adopting such tactics themselves. Freddie Attenborough has written about the speech in detail here . As if on cue, The Telegraph reported on Saturday that the closure of two French TV stations had been confirmed by the Council of State, the Republic’s highest administrative court. The FSU was proud to have a presence at the Association for Responsible Citizenship (ARC) Conference 2025, alongside many other civil rights and free expression advocacy groups. A key moment at the conference was the Free Speech dinner where our General Secretary, Lord Young, delivered the opening speech. The conference also provided the perfect platform to announce the launch of FSU International – an initiative designed to coordinate the efforts of existing FSUs around the world, and to support those looking to set up new ones. To drive the initiative forward, we’ve appointed Jon Benjamin, a former British Ambassador, to lead FSU International. On Wednesday 19th February, in the heart of Westminster, the FSU marked its fifth anniversary with a packed gathering of supporters and donors. In just five years, the FSU has established itself as a leading voice for free expression, standing up for those targeted for wrongthink in an increasingly censorious culture while ensuring that the right to speak one’s mind is defended in the workplace and the public square. We end with a round-up of forthcoming FSU events . ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift.…

That’s Debatable!

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17 Minutes of Courtroom Sanity 42:43

6 weeks ago42:43

42:43

With the help of the FSU, a former Royal Marine who served in Iraq has been cleared of publishing threatening material with intent to stir up racial hatred – in reality, a 12-minute Facebook video urging people to stage peaceful protests about illegal immigration. Jamie Michael, an FSU member, was unanimously acquitted by a jury at Merthyr Tydfil Crown Court in just 17 minutes. The story was reported this week in The Telegraph . We paid his legal fees and arranged for him to be represented by solicitor Luke Gittos and barrister Adam King. Prosecutors claimed his language was “unrelentingly negative” towards immigrants, but his defence made clear that it was directed only at those who are “illegal, unchecked or radicalised”. The jury reached its verdict in 17 minutes, less time than it took to hear the prosecution’s opening arguments. FSU General Secretary Toby Young has written to the Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police (GMP) on behalf of the FSU protesting its decision to release the name and street address of the man who was arrested on Monday for publicly burning the Koran. In the letter, Toby tells the Chief Constable: “As you must know, demonstrations involving damage to or the destruction of a Koran have been responded to with violence of the most serious kind. Just last week, an Iraqi man named Salwab Momika was murdered in Sweden after he burnt a Koran”. Meanwhile, Angela Rayner, in her role as communities secretary, is planning a new council on ‘Islamophobia’ and lining up ex-Tory attorney-general Dominic Grieve to chair it, according to The Telegraph . The 16-strong body will draw up an official government definition of Islamophobia. In 2018 Mr Grieve wrote a foreword to the report by the All-Party Parliamentary Group (APPG) on British Muslims which set out the controversial definition of Islamophobia later adopted by the Labour Party when it was in opposition. This definition has been widely criticised – including in a Free Speech Union briefing – for being far too broad and labelling perfectly legitimate criticisms of Islam ‘Islamophobic’. We end with a report that NHS staff have been told not to call people “obese” in an inclusive language guide produced by the medicines watchdog, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE). The guide, reported in The Telegraph , instructs medical workers to describe the badly overweight as “people with obesity”. It also warns against using “diabetic”, and “alcoholic” rather than “people with diabetes” and “people who are dependent on alcohol”. ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift .…

That’s Debatable!

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EDI Dominoes Start to Fall 41:57

7 weeks ago41:57

41:57

We briefly discuss last Saturday’s Manchester event on free expression in football, before moving on to a recent victory for workplace free speech that was reported in The Telegraph . The Institute and Faculty of Actuaries (IFoA) has scrapped controversial plans to force its 32,000 members — including 15,000 student members and 46 partner universities — to "encourage diversity, equity and inclusion" in all aspects of their professional and personal lives. The Free Speech Union responded to both of the IFoA’s consultations on equity, diversity and inclusion (EDI) and we take the opportunity to discuss the best strategies for tackling these kind of free speech codes in other contexts. Also reported last week in The Telegraph , claims of ‘two-tier’ policing are, according to an internal Home Office report, an ‘extreme right-wing narrative’. We know about the Home Office report not because it was published, but because it was leaked to the think tank Policy Exchange , which rightly pointed out that some of the definitions of extremism threaten free speech, defining aspects of normal and legitimate political debate as extremist. We end with Jan’s regular report on upcoming FSU events plus the good news of Toby Young’s introduction to the House of Lords on Tuesday 28th January, alongside the FSU’s Chairman, Lord Biggar. ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift .…

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Discussion with Martin Speake 49:56

8 weeks ago49:56

49:56

We were delighted to welcome the distinguished composer, musician and educator Martin Speake onto ‘That's Debatable!’ this week. Back in February 2024, Martin questioned new ‘anti-racist’ policies at Trinity Laban Conservatoire of Music and Dance (TL), his employer for 22 years. As reported in The Times earlier this month, the woke mob then came for him with full force. While TL publicly distanced itself from him, Martin faced widespread professional ostracisation. Students boycotted his classes, concerts were cancelled, collaborations were dissolved, bands refused to play his compositions and the release of his new album was shelved. Eventually, this Orwellian un-personing took its toll, costing him his job. Martin has now filed legal claims against TL for discrimination and harassment under the Equality Act 2010, as well as for constructive dismissal. During our discussion, Martin walks us through what happened and explains the personal impact his cancellation has had and continues to have on him. Viewers and listeners can donate here to stand with Martin in his fight for justice; you can also hear Martin’s music on his YouTube channel. ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift .…

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Partial Win for Academic Freedom 44:18

9 weeks ago44:18

44:18

Bridget Phillipson has updated the House of Commons on the Higher Education (Freedom of Speech) Act (HEFSA), which secured cross-party support in the last Parliament and received Royal Assent in May 2023. She will now implement some – but not all – of the remaining clauses. Clause 4, a cornerstone of the original law, will not be commenced, according to Phillipson. This would have introduced a statutory tort enabling students, university employees and visiting speakers to seek compensation in the courts if their free speech rights had been breached. The government has also removed provisions that would have included student unions in the Act’s scope. Speaking to The Telegraph , Toby Young said: “It comes as no surprise that the government appears to have performed a U-turn in response to our claim. But the Free Speech Union hasn’t received any communication from the Secretary of State, and the devil will be in the detail. In the meantime, we will be pressing on with our case.” During our discussion we refer to a very interesting post on X by Professor Jo Phoenix. There was further good news this week, reported in both The Telegraph and The Sunday Times . Eleanor Frances has secured a £116,749 settlement after bringing claims of victimisation, constructive dismissal and discrimination on the grounds of philosophical belief against the Department of Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) and the Department of Science, Innovation and Technology (DSIT). Ms Frances said she was forced out of the service because of a “politicised climate of fear” within Whitehall, exacerbated by internal policies influenced by Stonewall and adopted without proper consultation. The departments are now working together to introduce a revised gender reassignment policy, informed by a new central model policy. We end with a discussion around how the Scottish Qualifications Authority (SQA) has abolished the terms ‘slaves’ and ‘the slave trade’ as part of the process of decolonising the curriculum in Scotland. The full story was reported this week in The Mail . ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift .…

That’s Debatable!

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Mea Maxima Culpa 38:34

10 weeks ago38:34

38:34

On Tuesday 7th January, Jan joined many others in Trafalgar Square to stand in solidarity with Charlie Hebdo and honour the victims from ten years ago. The commemoration took on an added poignancy when a group of French students, visiting the square by chance, spontaneously joined the gathering . Together, they reaffirmed the enduring importance of protecting free expression from those who would seek to destroy it. You can watch a clip of Jan’s speech here . As you may have seen in the Telegraph , FSU member Saba Poursaeedi is fighting back after being penalised by his employer for his involvement in Reform UK. Saba was working for the Hightown Housing Association and had applied for – and been offered – a promotion to a more senior role. However, Hightown withdrew the job offer, despite his exemplary work record, when it discovered he was a regional organiser for Reform UK and hoped to stand as a candidate. His employer claimed Reform UK’s policies on immigration, net zero, and green belt development were incompatible with Hightown’s ‘values’. You can find out more about Saba’s case and donate here . Toby also interviewed Saba about his ordeal, and you can watch that video here . The Mail reported this week that the boss of a speech and language therapy group has been forced to issue a grovelling apology following a five-month investigation – because he followed Tommy Robinson on X. Steve Jamieson did not ‘like’ or repost any views of the far-right agitator but still faced calls to resign from the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists (RCSLT). The RCSLT appointed a sub-committee which instructed a barrister to investigate the ‘incident’, which likely cost tens of thousands of pounds. In what can only be described as a ‘Mea Culpa’ statement, he wrote: ‘I am deeply sorry for the hurt, upset, distress, fear and anger that this caused members, colleagues and staff.’ We end today’s episode with an update on forthcoming FSU events . ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift .…

That’s Debatable!

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Can Free Speech Survive Keir Starmer? 37:23

11 weeks ago37:23

37:23

Happy New Year to all our listeners and viewers! We were immensely proud to see both Toby Young and our Chair, Professor Nigel Biggar, in the New Year honours list – an achievement that’s in no small part thanks to the sustained support of all the members and supporters of the FSU over our nearly five years of operation. Tuesday 7thJanuary is the tenth anniversary of the ‘ Charlie Hebdo ’ massacre in Paris during which 12 people were murdered. France 24 reported on the anniversary last week, “Since its founding in 1970, [ Charlie Hebdo ] has regularly tested the boundaries of French hate-speech laws, which offer protection to minorities but allow for blasphemy and the mockery of religion”. The article continues, “‘The idea is not to publish anything, it's to publish everything that makes people doubt, brings them to reflect, to ask questions, to not end up closed in by ideology’, director Riss, who survived the 2015 attack, told Le Monde in November”. Jan was on GB News discussing the anniversary on Sunday and in today’s discussion we think about how depictions of the Prophet Muhammed are frequently dismissed as ‘unwise’ – a recent example being the response of Labour Party advisor Mike Buckley to the Batley Grammar school incident of 2021. To mark the new year, Toby Young has written a piece in Spiked listing the multiple free speech threats from Sir Keir Starmer’s government. His list includes the looming Employment Rights Bill, the Football Governance Bill and Yvette Cooper’s stated aim to lower the threshold for the recording of non-crime hate incidents (NCHIs). FSU statistics to the end of 2024 are hot off the press and they show how the FSU has grown from 12,275 at year-end 2023 to 24,279 at year-end 2024 – an increase of 97.8%. Meanwhile, on the case work side of the house, we have assisted approximately 3,300 individuals since our creation, 640 (or nearly a fifth) of whom reached out to us during the second half of 2024. Finally, we are delighted to have the opportunity to host a farewell event for Graham Linehan before he heads to the USA to work with Andrew Doyle on a new sitcom. Tickets are on sale at our events page from Tuesday 7th January. ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift .…

That’s Debatable!

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All to Play For 42:52

14 weeks ago42:52

42:52

The former Conservative and UKIP MP, Douglas Carswell, writes in The Telegraph this week, “England is no longer a free society. The old country is descending into authoritarianism.” We begin by pondering whether this is true. As Jan points out, the very fact there is a fight on for free expression is a positive and we should eschew a paralysing fatalism. We move on to discuss The Spectator being reprimanded by the Independent Press Standards Organisation (IPSO) for a piece by Gareth Roberts last May in which he wrote that Nicola Sturgeon “was interviewed by writer Juno Dawson, a man who claims to be a woman, and so the conversation naturally turned to gender”. Michael Gove, the new editor of The Spectator , has written powerfully in protest at IPSO’s ruling in this week’s edition of the magazine . Some important good news is that Bromley Council has adopted free speech protections for councillors in its constitution. The Council’s Code of Conduct now states: “The right to free speech under the law is the basis of democracy and will be upheld at all times and there is no right to be offended by any lawful speech”. The FSU has been working for months with Bromley councillor Simon Fawthrop to draft these protections. There is further good news reported in The Times that the Chairman of the College of Policing, Lord Herbert of South Downs, has demanded a complete rethink on non-crime hate incidents (NCHI). As he says in the article, “We want to apply a commonsense approach, where the police officer would receive a complaint and they would be able to say, ‘We’re sorry, we can understand you find that offensive but it’s not a matter for us’”. We couldn’t agree more! Finally, we report back on this week’s annual online review which saw Ayaan Hirsi Ali declared our ‘free speech hero’ for 2024 and Sir Keir Starmer our ‘free speech zero’. We wish all our listeners and viewers a very Happy Christmas and a 2025 full of free expression. ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift .…

That’s Debatable!

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Long Live the Refuseniks! 51:15

15 weeks ago51:15

51:15

We start with some good news. As reported in The Telegraph , Cambridge Constabulary have announced that they will be taking no further action against the FSU member who used the word “pikey” on the phone to the police while reporting two men who were threatening her and her family. Meanwhile, “Rainbow Refuseniks” is the name given to a growing group of footballers who have either refused to wear rainbow-coloured jerseys and armbands to signify their support for the Football Association’s Rainbow Laces campaign or have written religious messages on them. To date, they include Ipswich Town captain Sam Morsy, Crystal Palace captain Marc Guéhi and Manchester United defender Noussair Mazraoui. Our Executive Communications Officer, Freddie Attenborough, has written more broadly about the football world’s war on free speech in The Critic . We move on to discuss the state of debate in the UK, following a debate at the Oxford Union, which is now being investigated by counter-terror police. The motion was: “This house believes Israel is an apartheid state responsible for genocide”. As Jan explains, the video of the debate is an unedifying spectacle but it is also revealing, especially in a context where certain speakers were claiming they ought not even be there to debate the issue. By contrast, FSU member Connie Shaw is heroically standing up for free speech, having been suspended from hosting a student radio show on Leeds Student Radio after she was accused of breaching her student union’s code of conduct. This followed her expressing gender critical views and interviewing controversial figures for her podcast. The Telegraph reports how the FSU is helping Connie to appeal the student union’s decision and has called for the investigation findings to be quashed. We stay within the FSU family to discuss the research of Ben Jones, our Director of Case Management. Ben spoke at the National Secular Society’s members’ day about the experiences of ex-muslims in the UK. As he said in his talk, his findings were shocking and “shouldn’t happen in any country, let alone the UK”. Finally, FSU members have just a few hours left to sign-up for our Online Christmas Review on Tuesday 10th December (register using the link in the weekly newsletter). ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift .…

That’s Debatable!

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Unpopular Opinions - Academic Freedom in New Zealand 57:11

16 weeks ago57:11

57:11

We were delighted to welcome Dr James Kierstead onto ‘That's Debatable!’ to discuss his latest report, “Unpopular Opinions: Academic Freedom in New Zealand” . James is a Senior Fellow at the New Zealand Initiative , where his work focuses on universities, free speech, and democracy. We begin with a recap of a story that hit the UK press back in 2021 about academics who were threatened with expulsion from the Royal Society of New Zealand for criticising plans that would see Māori knowledge added to the school curriculum. Controversy around race issues, especially those relating to the ‘ Treaty of Waitangi ’ continue to exert a chilling effect on free expression – one testimony in the report notes that “Questioning anything about the radical current interpretation of the Treaty of Waitangi is likely to be career ending”. Another area explored in detail within the report is the influence of the Chinese Communist Party (‘CCP) on academic freedom, with recent incidents revealing how higher management in New Zealand’s universities appear to be afraid to offend the Chinese Government. In a discussion on taboos – and the double standard around taboos – we briefly bring the focus back to the UK and the troubling call this week by Labour MP Tahir Ali for the introduction of blasphemy laws. In his conclusion, Dr Kierstead notes that if New Zealand can rediscover its historical defence of academic freedom, there is an opportunity for New Zealand’s universities to steal a march on the larger and better-resourced university systems it tends to compete within the US, UK, Canada and Australia. Finally, a reminder to listeners and viewers of our Comedy Unleashed event on 17th December – tickets are selling fast! ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift .…

That’s Debatable!

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Censor Like It's 1979 41:18

17 weeks ago41:18

41:18

Jan was fortunate enough to join ‘ Academics for Academic Freedom ’ (AFAF) at their annual conference on Saturday 23rd November and we begin by discussing how important that organisation has become in emboldening academics to fight for their freedom in the university context. The public row around Non Crime Hate Incidents (NCHI) has continued to rumble on, despite Essex police dropping its investigation into Allison Pearson. The Telegraph this week reported that Yvette Cooper is committed to reversing the Tories’ decision to downgrade the monitoring of the incidents, specifically in relation to anti-Semitism and Islamophobia, so that they can be logged by police. The think tank ‘Policy Exchange’ has now added its voice to the debate with the release of a new report entitled, “Non-Crime Hate Incidents: A chilling distraction from the public’s priorities on policing”. We move on to discuss an item in The Guardian , which highlights how an anti-racism campaigner’s London book events had to be cancelled amid the threat of far-right violence, a story that shows the need for free speech consistency. Next up, as reported in The Times , a consultation from the Bar Standards Board (BSB) which proposes bringing barristers’ equality obligations into line with solicitors in England and Wales has triggered a row with the Bar Council. We recently hosted a panel of eminent legal experts to grapple with the merits of the Bar Standards Board’s proposals, which you can watch here . We have also written a response to the consultation, which can be found here . We end with the news that a poster promoting Fern Brady’s stand-up tour has been ruled as ‘offensive’ to Christians by the Advertising Standards Authority . The debate resembles many of the arguments that were played out in 1979 following the release of ‘ Life of Brian’ . ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift .…

That’s Debatable!

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Watch It! 43:40

18 weeks ago43:40

43:40

Allison Pearson’s visit from Essex Police on Remembrance Sunday has reignited the debate around the state of free expression in the UK. While some confusion remains around the precise details of that doorstep conversation, it has nevertheless thrown the thorny issue of ‘Non-Crime Hate Incidents’ (or NCHI) sharply back into the public eye. The Times , for example, has discovered that police have been recording NCHI against children as young as nine, this despite paragraph 36 of the new Code of Conduct explicitly recommending them not to do so. Our Informative Guide sets out how you can find out if your local police force has recorded an NCHI against you and what you can do to get it deleted – log in to your FSU account to take a look. Control of language continues across the country and we were dismayed to read in The Telegraph that the Welsh government’s anti-racism action plan aims to change the beliefs and behaviour of the white majority. Official reports have even advised creating “dog free areas” to boost inclusion. We move on to discuss an important article by two Oxford students who each testify to the endemic fear of cancellation across the student campus. This follows the tragic death of Alexander Rogers and the inquest’s ruling that the student was the victim of “pervasive cancel culture”. Professor Kathleen Stock has written a very thoughtful piece in Unherd on how universities are teaching students to shame. Finally, Jan discusses Wendy Houston’s show, “Watch It!” and reports on Sunday’s march on Wembley for the teenage female footballer banned following a transgender row. ‘That's Debatable!’ is edited by Jason Clift .…

That’s Debatable!

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Two Cheers for Trump on Free Speech 32:47

19 weeks ago32:47