I'm doing the UNBOUND 200 with FasCat Coach Justin Bowes

The Gravel Ride. A cycling podcast

This week on the podcast we welcome Justin Bowes, a coach at FasCat Coaching. We discuss the evolution of Fastcat Coaching and the development of their training app, Optimize. Craig shares he'll be lining up for the UNBOUND 200 in June and Justin has the tough job of getting him ready. Justin shares his background in racing and coaching and his love for gravel racing. They also dive into the specific challenges and strategies for training for the Unbound Gravel 200, including nutrition, hydration, and pacing. Justin provides valuable insights and tips for preparing for a long-distance gravel race.

FasCat Coaching

Optiimize App

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership

About the Guest(s):

Justin Bowes is FasCat cycling coach with over 20 years of experience in the sport. He started racing at the age of 15 and has competed in road cycling, triathlon, mountain biking, and gravel racing. Justin has raced professionally and has coached numerous athletes, including national champions in road cycling, mountain biking, and cyclocross. He is passionate about gravel racing and has an active 2024 gravel race calendar.

Episode Summary:

This week on the podcast we welcome Justin Bowes, a coach at FasCat Coaching. We discuss the evolution of Fastcat Coaching and the development of their training app, Optimize. Craig shares he'll be lining up for the UNBOUND 200 in June and Justin has the tough job of getting him ready. Justin shares his background in racing and coaching and his love for gravel racing. They also dive into the specific challenges and strategies for training for the Unbound Gravel 200, including nutrition, hydration, and pacing. Justin provides valuable insights and tips for preparing for a long-distance gravel race.

Key Takeaways:

• Fastcat Coaching has evolved over the years and now offers personalized coaching as well as an app called Optimize, which provides real-time analysis and feedback for athletes.

• Training for a long-distance gravel race like Unbound Gravel 200 requires a strategic approach, including proper nutrition, hydration, and pacing.

• It is important to listen to your body and adjust your training based on factors like recovery, sleep, and overall fatigue.

• Simulating race conditions and practicing your nutrition and hydration strategy during training rides is crucial for success on race day.

• Having a support crew and a well-thought-out plan for aid stations and resupply points can make a big difference in your race experience.

Notable Quotes:

• "Unbound Gravel is a challenging event, but with proper training and preparation, you can enjoy the ride and achieve your goals." - Justin Bowes

• "Training for a long-distance gravel race requires a balance of endurance, strength, and mental fortitude

Transcription:

[TRANSCRIPT]

[00:00:00] - (): Craig Dalton: Justin, welcome to the show.

[00:00:04] - (): Justin Bowes: Hey, Craig, how are you doing?

[00:00:05] - (): Craig Dalton: Um, excellent. I'm excited to have another fast cat on the podcast. Frank on his gosh, it must've been like a year plus ago that we had Frank on board.

[00:00:14] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. That's what he mentioned that, uh, when we first started talking about, uh, bringing you on is I hope you don't mind a project.

**** - (): Um, he said, yeah, it was almost two years ago, I think that he was on. So yeah, this is cool to be on with you.

[00:00:28] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's been awesome. I mean, I've been a big fan of the fast cat podcast over the years and I've picked up a bunch. I've never really in the last couple of years had anything super substantive to train for something that terrified me.

**** - (): So we'll get to what that is and why I came back to you guys. But the evolution of fast cat over that time, obviously. That brought on additional coaches, but also built out a pretty amazing application, uh, iPhone app and Android app, I assume.

[00:00:59] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, it's as, as Frank says, you can actually feel us getting faster and it's like you can feel us growing as well.

**** - (): Um, yeah, with, you know, not only the, the success that Frank and the other coaches have had previous to me coming on, uh, which is the one on one coaching, but implementing. new AI, uh, scripts to, you know, a coaching app that can give you this amazing analysis, just as if you're communicating with a human.

**** - (): Cause it takes all of Frank's 20 years of training peak comments and puts them into this app. And so when you get done with the ride, you get that instant feedback as if, Coach Kat, who is coach Frank, you know, is giving you, you know, that real time analysis just as you've uploaded that ride. Whereas me as a coach, you know, I may see that you've uploaded a ride, but I probably won't make a comment or analyze that ride until like the next day.

**** - (): But with fast cat. It's there and it's right there for you. And, you know, as a coach, it's just like having a, uh, you know, a 24 seven virtual assistant. So it's, it's really cool.

[00:02:09] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's been super interesting that the app is called optimize. And basically you can choose from Any number of the fast cat training programs.

**** - (): So if you're training for a gravel race, or you're just trying to get faster in your group ride, you can just pick a plan and then it'll give you a program every single day of the week with built in rest. And to your point, a couple of months ago, I think they introduced coach cat. This AI, and it is pretty amazing.

**** - (): The unlock I think originally for the app was this intersection of. Taking your HR RV, your recovery score and looking at that in the context of what's your workload proposed for the day and making sure if you're in the red in terms of recovery, they're not sending you out on a six hour ride. So I noticed as I was using it, you know, coach Kat would say, You know, you're in the red, do you want me to modify this workout?

**** - (): And then you can just type in, Hey, yeah, I'm feeling crushed. What should I do? And you'll get back a workout. That's kind of slots into the overall plan or vision for where you're trying to get to.

[00:03:12] - (): Justin Bowes: Absolutely. And I think, you know, So with the sleep metrics, more and more people are getting into and really understanding that importance of, you know, we've always been told, get that eight hours of sleep, you know, get, you know, get the bed and keep a consistent, uh, schedule, you know, the sleep hygiene aspect of your training.

**** - (): And it's just more and more as the wearables, uh, whether it's the aura ring or a whoop or your Apple watch or. Uh, garment device or any of those other, um, devices, the metrics that they are kicking out are just getting smarter and smarter and fast cat, the app can collect all that just like you did a ride.

**** - (): And so, like, as soon as you wake up and whatever device you're using uploads it to fast cat. He's already, you know, reading that and gives you that thumbs up or thumbs down on, you know, to go for it or, you know, Hey, let's hold back. And to your point, it's really nice to be able to, you know, have that chat with fast cat coach, um, to say, yeah, yeah, you know, I do feel great.

**** - (): Let's, You know, keep the schedule program or yeah, I do feel kind of worn down. So maybe an active recovery day is, is better or a day off. And so fast KAC coach, you know, can adjust that immediately for you. And so you're on your way and not have to think about, should I, should I not? And it's actually a coach telling you that it's not just you putting a guilt trip on yourself to say, Oh, I know I should, but I've got a planned workout, so I should stick to it.

**** - (): Great. Great. Yeah. I'm getting that feedback just as if I'm your coach or Frank or any of the other Fastcat coaches or your coach telling you, Hey, you know, let's take a day off.

[00:04:57] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It took me a minute in January to kind of get everything set up like the, the head unit integrations are, are totally seamless for Wahoo and Hammerhead and other computers.

**** - (): into the system for me, since I didn't have power at that point. And I was doing indoor training on a Peloton. There was a bit of a head scratcher because there wasn't a Peloton integration at the time. And it took a minute and going back and forth with the team over there to figure out, Oh, if I just at least record my Peloton ride with my Wahoo head unit and a heart rate monitor.

**** - (): At least the data is coming in at that point. Right. So while it wasn't perfect, it kind of got me one step further. And then ultimately, uh, with the thanks to SRM, I did get some of their SRM X power pedals to put power on the bike, which has been a godsend, obviously in terms of our communication and just my ability to kind of really work within the app.

**** - (): I mentioned that all to say. Like I was super jazzed with the optimized app and what it was delivering to me, but what I started to get a sense when some personal travel kicked up for April, this big chunk of time before my target event in June, like I was going to have a problem. I didn't trust that the AI could figure out this complicated equation of.

**** - (): You could training for this big event training for the unbound 200 got a limited amount of time. How are we going to get the volume? How are we going to get all the different things that we need into a program? And that's why I went back to fast cat. And that's where I got introduced to you, Justin. So Yeah.

**** - (): Long, very long intro talking a lot about the Optimize app, but Justin, welcome again to the show. Thank you. Let's just learn a little bit more about your background and then I have lots of questions about what's coming up for me.

[00:06:45] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's crazy. Um, yeah, again, thank you for having me on the show.

**** - (): Um, long time listener, first time caller. Um. Really appreciate, uh, the opportunity to, uh, to speak with you and obviously, work with you now, uh, with getting you on board and, um, get you ready for Unbound. Uh, so my background, um, the quick and dirty is I started racing when I was 15. I watched the 1984 Olympic Games, uh, in Los Angeles, watched Alexei Grewal, from the United States, win the gold medal in the road race.

**** - (): And it was just like, my mind exploded. I was like, what is this? Like, I want to do that. And it wasn't like I was a stranger to endurance sports, um, between my oldest brother and my two younger brothers, all four of us, were involved either with swim team or, uh, cross country and track. Um, and we slowly kind of got into just, you know, riding at that time, 10 speeds as just, you know, part of training for running and swimming and everything else.

**** - (): But it was, it was watching the Olympics and watching Alexi win the gold medal. I was just like, I want to do that. And so that next summer, um, I started road racing, but I also, um, got into triathlon as well. So I grew up in Kansas city. And at that time, there wasn't a huge racing scene in Kansas City. Um, there was in the Midwest.

**** - (): So you had, you know, St. Louis was a hotbed. Oklahoma actually had a really cool old time, uh, stage race called the 89er. Um, Wisconsin, Chicago, obviously with, um, Uh, super weak and, and those crits out there, uh, back in the day. So we would have to travel to do, you know, the bigger bike races, but there was a booming triathlon scene in and around Kansas city.

**** - (): And so, uh, raced in that, uh, worked my way up, um, got my pro card early, got my cat one, you know, about the same time as 17 years old. Um, Yeah, it was just, it was a good time of, of racing and training and everything. We had a really good, um, group of people to train with. Um, then, you know, raced professionally for a few years, um, decided I got, I wasn't making a career out of it.

**** - (): Um, and so it was more like there was probably more to life than just living out of your car and traveling to races to try to get pre money to get to the next race and, and so on and so forth. And so. Um, I did transition to mountain bike racing in the early nineties, um, as I kind of aged out of the juniors and triathlon and road cycling mountain biking was taking off there in the late eighties, early nineties, and so race the nervous circuit.

**** - (): And, you know, was good enough, but wasn't a great, you know, elite pro rider. And so that was when the light kind of turned on. It's like, you know, there's probably more to life than, like I said, living out of your car and going to bike races all the time. And so, um, yeah, I decided to start a family, settle down, have kids, um, and then literally did not touch a bike for, uh, six plus years.

**** - (): Um, you know, I tell people they don't believe me. I don't share pictures, but there's evidence that I did blow up to like 250 pounds at, you know, one point while I was taking a sabbatical. Um, but it was about that time that, uh, my daughter was entering junior high and she wanted to, you know, run track and she wanted to do distance.

**** - (): And so, and it was about the time where I was starting to get an itch to get back into it. The kids were getting old enough. I didn't feel as bad or as guilty trying to like get back into, to cycling. And so, um, Yeah, bought a bike off of eBay, bought some extra large bib shorts from the local bike shop, um, started riding, and then also running with her in the morning before school and work, and yeah, pounds fell off, the training itch came back, the racing itch came back, um, Started racing again in Kansas City, um, helped with some local clubs there, helped with race direction with the tour of Kansas City and some other cyclocross races there.

**** - (): Um, yeah, and it just kind of blossomed, you know, from there. And then, uh, My wife and I, we moved up to Chicago. We lived there for five years, raced in the great crit and cyclocross scene up there, had an amazing time. We were up there for five years, and then now we are based out of central Virginia, uh, just outside of Charlottesville at the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains in Crozet, Virginia, and, uh, now taking advantage of the amazing riding that's here and just, Head over heels, uh, into gravel racing in the last, you know, five years big time.

**** - (): And yeah, just haven't looked back since. So, um, all along the way, um, you know, coaching was a big part of that. And it was kind of a casual thing as far as coaching was concerned. When I first kind of started into it is when I got back into racing. The second time I had, you know, some friends that were running a team, a local club there for You know, new riders to get into, and they asked if I would help, you know, kind of mentor and bring those new riders into the racing fold and kind of introduce them to, you know, the ins and outs and kind of the protocols of training and group rides and, and things like that.

**** - (): And one thing just led to another. It's just like, Hey, what did you used to do for training? And that kind of spiraled into here. Let me help you. And then more and more people are like, Hey, can you help me? And so, um, after we left Kansas city and went up to Chicago, the same thing kind of happened. And I was just like, maybe I should do this.

**** - (): And then, um, I still, you know, I was working full time in the corporate world. I was in it. And, um, still racing and everything, but once we moved down here to Virginia, um, my job didn't transfer. And so my amazing wife, Andrea, she was like, why don't you just coach full time? You know, why don't you do that?

**** - (): And so, um, it's like, maybe I should. And so I did. And so for the last seven years, yeah, I've just been a private coach and I've had, I've Yeah, a handful of national champion, uh, riders in road, uh, mountain biking, cycle cross, um, three from three different countries and road cycling, um, so yeah, it's been really exciting, um, and now I just started with, uh, Frank and the team and Fastcat, uh, here in the last month, um, It's, it's been amazing, full time, you know, transition from having my own coaching business to working with a team of coaches.

**** - (): And that was kind of the allure was working with, you know, nine like minded individuals who shared the passion for development, mentorship, and. Teaching and, um, to be able to like collaborate and have our coaches roundtables, you know, and our team meetings every week and just be able to bounce things off of, you know, other, you know, coaches and, Hey, have you seen this?

**** - (): Have you done that? Um, so I hope that wasn't too long and winded, but, uh, Yeah. That's, that's how we came about.

[00:14:29] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. No, it's great. Yeah. And I, you know, to your point around the fast cat coaches, I've been enjoying getting to know some of them through the podcast and getting their different perspectives.

**** - (): And I could see, you know, some of them have like a strong nutritional background or, you know, different backgrounds to bring to the table, which I'm sure leads to some vibrant conversations in your coaching meetings.

[00:14:54] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we, we all kind of have our own niche. Um, I mean, we all obviously overlap with all the different disciplines, but you know, um, we have some that are really strong, you know, in mountain biking, some are really strong in cyclocross.

**** - (): Some are really strong in road. Some like myself or, you know, kind of jack of all trades, but like, I really love, you know, racing gravel now. And so that's the language I speak. And so, um, Yeah. And so we can share, Hey, what tires are you using? What equipment's best for this race or that course or, you know, things like that.

**** - (): And, uh, you know, I've got an athlete going to, you know, this race who's done it, who's had athletes there and things like that. And so to be able to cross pollinate, um, is, is really cool. And it's, it's really dynamic and exciting.

[00:15:44] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit specifically about your experience in gravel, both as a coach and as an athlete.

**** - (): I know you've been passionate about it the last couple of years. What have been some of the events you've been hitting? What do you, what do you like, like to do in gravel for yourself? And what have you been seeing across the athletes you're coaching?

[00:16:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Um, so as far as like, you know, that, you know, I still haven't done steamboat.

**** - (): Uh, gravel. I want to do that. Um, I'm trying to qualify again for, uh, the world cyclic cyclo cars, world's gravel championships in Belgium this year. I'd really like to go over there and, um, race in the worlds. Um, I missed it by a spot last year, uh, going to Italy. Um, we can talk about that. My. Body just kind of said no bueno during the middle of the race and later found out there was some medical stuff behind it.

**** - (): So, um, got that all fixed, but, um, yeah, gearing up like you, I'm gearing up for Unbound, but, uh, unlike you, I'm only doing the 100. Um, this will be my third shot at it. My first time in 21, I was able to take 15th, uh, overall on that one. And then next year, 2022, I DNFed with a mechanical. Um, and so I punted last year and deferred to, to come back this year and we're going north and I really like the north course more, more so than the south courses.

**** - (): Um, so I'm really looking forward to that.

[00:17:15] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. What do you like about that north direction now that we're on that subject?

[00:17:20] - (): Justin Bowes: Ah, I like the nasty, chunky gravel. Um, I, I think it, it's, You know, it, it's plays more into my strength, um, as a rider, I like the technical aspect of it. Um, the short punchier climbs is very similar to what I train on here.

**** - (): Um, yeah, so it just, it, it fits in really nice. And I also like, this is going to sound really kind of sadistic, but I really like having the headwind on the way back. It really exposes, uh, the, the weaker riders and those who, you know, don't know how to deal with the wind. Um, and so, um, I just remember in 2021, uh, coming back and it was just like sucking on a hairdryer for, you know, 50 some odd miles of just like, it was just, Exhausting.

**** - (): But at the same time, you know, growing up in Kansas city and racing across Kansas and Missouri and Oklahoma, I mean, I was used to it. And so it was, it was, it was almost like I am home, you know, it's like, it felt like being home. And so I was really comfortable with it.

[00:18:27] - (): Craig Dalton: There's something interesting about like places you've trained and how they, your body recognizes them after the fact, when you come back and you're like, gosh, I have existed in this environment, this, this before I kind of get it.

[00:18:40] - (): Justin Bowes: Exactly, and I mean, I, I do really well in heat. Um, my body just responds well with it, and unbound is inevitably extremely hot , um, and uncomfortable. Um, yeah, I just, I, you know, over the course of the, the, the, uh, the race, I just, I mean, everybody loses power. I mean, just because of, you know, the, the natural.

**** - (): ebb and flow of the race and the distance and the duration and everything like that. You're, you're, you're going to lose power, but you know, the heat doesn't really affect me that much in the, in the fact of it, I can prolong that drop in power. Like I can put it off, you know, longer than, than most. And so I can kind of cope with it.

**** - (): And yeah, I know, I think it's mental too. Like when, you know, you do well in a certain environment, um, or, you know, climate. That you're just walking into it and you're feeling like, yeah, I can do this when everybody else is like, oh, it's going to be 90 degrees, you know, and they're already, it's kind of like, you know, when it's raining or freezing cold, they're already shut down before the race even starts.

[00:19:50] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. For those of us who might be heat challenged as a coach, how would you advise your athletes to prepare if climate in their home environment doesn't necessarily get up to those heats?

[00:20:03] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So it is a challenge, uh, because heat. obviously affects us, you know, differently, even if, even if you're in it, uh, some people just don't do well with it, but you have to be ready for it.

**** - (): And so, um, you know, this is something we, you and I actually haven't even talked about. Um, but it's, it's one of those things where we want to do simulation rides to, um, prepare not only for You know what we're eating and drinking and distance and things like that, but also, you know, weather conditions and it's, it may be, you know, getting you back on your Peloton, you know, in a long sleeve Jersey and leg warmers and things like that, just to, you know, do some interval work, um, while raising that body temperature as much as possible and, you know, restricting the cooling aspect of it.

**** - (): So, you know, the exact opposite of what we talk about when we talk about it. Training indoors of like keeping it 68 degrees and air flow and and all of that. Yeah, but to get you ready for something like that It's more like let's put a you know, thermal jersey on some leg warmers and you know close the garage and you know Sweat it out.

**** - (): So

[00:21:13] - (): Craig Dalton: well, I can I definitely have a hotbox environment in my garage if it's Plus 65 degrees, which I can reasonably get to here in the Bay area. The other thing you mentioned, and maybe just to put it in context for people who haven't done the North route at Unbound or just been out to Unbound in general, when you talk about a short punchy climb, what, what, what does that look like?

**** - (): Give us some parameters.

[00:21:35] - (): Justin Bowes: Sure. Uh, so duration, I know you and I've talked about this, uh, duration wise, you're looking anything from 30 seconds to, you know, as the race goes on, maybe five minutes. Thanks. You know, as opposed to, you know, a 20 minute climb or 30 minute climb or something like that, but just repeated short punchy climbs where it's just like straight down one side and then all your power up the next side for 20 to 30 seconds, you know, to get up and over it.

**** - (): Um, and so that's, those, those are punchy climbs and you're, you know, you're looking at like, you know, anywhere from like seven to 12%, you know, type of gradients. You know, mixed in.

[00:22:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. A lot of times, obviously, like when we can see the top of a climb as athletes, if we've got, if we've got the requisite power, we're going to want to push and roll over that right in a race of 200 miles.

**** - (): And maybe there's 400 of said punchy climbs in the middle of that. How should you be thinking about it? And maybe, You can use some terms that we can get into later about VO2 max or sweet spot or like, where do you push to knowing that early in the race? Like I could probably hammer over this thing, but it may not be in my best interest six hours from now.

[00:22:50] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, and you know, it's again, you know, with Unbound and especially the 200, we kind of want to reverse thinking as far as like, Hey, yeah, I can punch over all of these like really early on. And we want to like, think the opposite and say, let's take our time getting over these and just get over as smoothly as possible.

**** - (): With, you know, putting out as little as power as possible to just maintain, you know, the pace that we, you know, you and I, you know, set upon as far as like our target, um, because course like unbound, it's a death by a thousand cuts. And those thousand cuts are those, you know, punchy hills repeated and things like that.

**** - (): But in addition to the punchy hills, you just have these false flats. Of this never ending horizon also, you know, and so while, you know, maybe you have a section where you have a few rollers or punchy climbs there, you may have another, you know, 10, 15 miles of just nothing but a false flat of like one, 2%, if not more.

**** - (): Where you just don't see the end, you know, that end just keeps moving on you. And, and that's, that's where the mental aspect really comes in of just like not allowing yourself to like, you know, get distracted by the fact that you can't see the end because most climbs We're on we know that we're up and over that climb and we're on to the next, you know, flat or downhill or something like this, where this is just nothing but a grind.

**** - (): And so you just have to keep a mental, you know, a positive mental, um, attitude of. This is what I wanted to do. This is what I trained for. This is, you know, I'm ready for this. And so, um, you know, in everybody's power, I get, I get a little wary of like putting out power numbers, you know, for just examples, just because everybody is so different and the climbs there.

**** - (): because they are technical in nature of because of the chunkiness of the gravel and things like that. Each one is so different. I mean, there just really isn't one that's the same because believe it or not, even the middle of Emporia, like there's a dozen different types of gravel that you're going to encounter and they're all in those climbs too.

**** - (): And so, um, You know, one, you're, you know, you're sitting at, you know, 400 Watts to climb, climb up and over. No big deal. You don't even think about it, but the next one is steeper and chunkier. And so now it's just like to try to put out 400 Watts consistently. It's just like, I can't do that. Yeah. So it's just, it's a matter of, you know, just, you know, again, going back to your mental attitude and, and, and realizing that, Hey, I did the training.

**** - (): I know I can do this. This is just another 30 second type of effort. I'm onto the next.

[00:25:43] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. I'm, I'm confident there's going to be a lot of discipline along the way that needs to be applied as a writer. We all have the tendency of following wheels with enthusiasm, particularly if, you know, I, I won't and will not be doing many events.

**** - (): So this being a singular event or one of a handful this year, I'm going to be enthusiastic and, you know, it's fun to ride in a pack. It's fun to do all these things. And I think it's going to be critical to always just check, check oneself and say, We've got a long day ahead of us. We need to play this out, the long game and be mentally disciplined along the way with our physical efforts.

**** - (): And then also back that up with a strong nutritional strategy that you don't waver from as well. Because I certainly know from my Ironman days, you can make a mistake early and you're just going to pay for it. On the bright side, when you're talking about a 15 hour day, there's always opportunities to recover.

**** - (): Yes. You cannot afford to get yourself in too big of a hole. And I do think it's just about having a system in place for nutrition, for hydration that you're following like a check, check box, like a robot. So just interested to get some, some more detailed comments from you on the nutrition side of things.

**** - (): And you know, should we be writing things down on the top tube? Should we have alarms on our watches? Like, what are some tips to make sure that. We've got a fueling strategy that's going to get us through a long day.

[00:27:15] - (): Justin Bowes: I, you know, as far as, you know, backing up for just a second and, and getting caught up in like the enthusiasm of, especially an event like Unbound, because that is like the center of dare I say, even the cycling world is focused on Emporia, Kansas on June 1st. You know, it's gotten so big that, you know, when you have teams like Ineos sending, you Cameron Worth over to check it out to see if it's even worth, you know, doing it's kind of a big deal, right?

**** - (): You know, you have Peter Sagan dropping in just to check out what's going on and things like that. So it's very easy, you know, that entire week leading up to the actual race day to get caught up in just the swell of, you know, excitement and, and things like that. And then as soon as that gun goes off. And you're surrounded by, you know, 3000 of your closest friends to go do 200 miles.

**** - (): Everybody wants to like be a part of it. And that's, that's like point number one of like, keeping your, yourself in check of just like, Nope, I lined up with, you know, the 14 hour crew or the 15 hour crew or whoever you line yourself up with. And that's who I'm staying with no matter what. And to that point, you know, it's easy to start talking with people and feeling good.

**** - (): And I always tell my athletes. You know, when, when they have a, you know, struggle with, uh, you know, completing a workout or not feeling like they did their workout, you know, the right way, we immediately go back to the nutrition and hydration, uh, question. It's those simple, low hanging fruit, um, aspects of, well, what did you eat?

**** - (): How often did you drink? And if it was an early morning ride, a lot of times, you know, they may have skipped breakfast altogether, or maybe just had like a slice of toast or a banana or something like that just to get them out the door because it was early. And while that used to be kind of. You know, common practice.

**** - (): Now we know that that's not the case and our bodies need way more fuel than what we originally thought. Um, and a lot of us used to train with. And so now it's, you know, make sure, you know, if that, if you means getting up, you know, an extra hour earlier to actually eat a breakfast, that's what you have to do, you know, and as, and, and with you, you know, as we get closer to the event.

**** - (): You know, we're gonna have to start practicing that early morning breakfast routine because you guys go off at 6:00 AM a lot of people aren't used to doing anything at 6:00 AM let alone embarking on 200 mile gravel race. And so, you know, practicing, you know, that fueling strategy ahead of time to, you know, wake, you know, the wake up time, the, you know, pre-breakfast, you know, was that coffee or tea or, you know, whatever it is.

**** - (): And then eating, you know, substantial breakfast. And then getting on the bike and as you're sitting in the corral waiting for the start eating again, you know, and so I like to tell, you know, my athletes, while it's a neutral rollout, it's, you know, it's neutral, it's not, but at the same time, it's, that's, that's another opportunity for you to like grab, you know, another bar, another gel or something like that to stick in your face.

**** - (): Um, because the more often that you can eat, the better off you're going to be because eventually you will get to that point where, you know, just through exhaustion and mental fatigue and physical fatigue and everything like that, it's very easy to stop eating and, and drinking, you know, you're just like, Oh yeah, I'll, I'll, I'll drink in five minutes, you know, or I'll eat again and you know, 20 minutes or something like that.

**** - (): Well, an hour passes and you didn't eat, you didn't drink, and then you're in the hole. And so the tips to help, you know, get the food in and the drinks in, you know, a lot now are our head units have alarms on them, uh, to set, you know, at different, you know, uh, time, uh, periods of like anywhere from 15, 20, 30, 45, however you want to do it.

**** - (): Um, To set reminders to drink or sip or eat or snack or however you want to do it. But for Unbound, you have to eat, you have to drink as often and as early as possible. And also for a big event like that, I like to recommend Real food early as much as possible. And when I talk about real food, it's like, you know, for myself, um, you know, my big ride that I had on Saturday, I make a double batch of pancakes, you know, a batch for me to eat for breakfast and then a batch to take with me on the bike.

**** - (): And I'm eating, you know, a pancake every hour with my drink mix and everything like that, carbs up. So whether it's pancakes or peanut butter and jellies or, bagels, or, you know, I'll get fancy some days and do like mini croissants and ham and apricot preserves, something like that, or pretzel roll with, you know, country ham on it, things like that, where your body can digest and get really good, you know, high, Call it high quality carbs and calories into your body early, because the longer we go, our bodies will then not be able to process that real food later on.

**** - (): And it's, that's when we start switching over to gels and blocks and the really simple sugar stuff, you know, the gummy bears, you know, things like that, um, to just keep the sugars coming and by eating the real food. earlier than you kind of stave off that flavor fatigue that you'll get from the gels and the drink mixes and things like that.

**** - (): Um, and if, if, you know, if your head unit doesn't have, you know, reminders on there, um, I'm a big fan of putting like, um, colored stickers on my handlebars and stems, um, from multiple of reasons, you know, but in this instance, it would be like, Hey, why is that orange sticker there? Oh, it's to eat. You know, why is that yellow one there?

**** - (): Oh, it's to drink. And so, you know, things like that. And then, you know, you hit the nail on the head. Make a little top tube or stem sticker, you know, decal with eat, you know, at this time, at this, you know, you know, make a little checklist for yourself to like run down and eat at, you know, six 30 at seven o'clock at seven 15, you know, whatever it is, just to remind yourself to, you know, constantly eat because.

**** - (): As you, as you're going to find out, those aid stations are few and far between in Unbound. It's not like your local races where they're staffed every 20 miles or something. You have two aid stations and two water oases. That's it. You know, and it's a long distance in between those.

[00:34:08] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I've started, uh, on my long rides carrying my use way hydration pack and two water bottles just to kind of get into that routine of having that additional weight on my body and bike.

**** - (): Um, and that, that sort of pressure to keep hydrating, I definitely need and appreciated your comments on. The kind of food strategy, I definitely need to think a lot more about what's going to work for me. I've got a pretty strong constitution historically in terms of like, I can eat the same thing all day long, but I don't think I want to do that.

**** - (): Um, so I want to figure out like, yeah, what's, what is my strategy between real food and gels and what's going to be accessible? What's going to work. I've got plenty of questions on like, how the hell do I carry all this stuff? I know we've got a resupply point at one point, but I got to do the math and probably start, um, training with.

**** - (): That volume of, uh, nutrition on me just to get a sense, like, do I have the right places to put it on the bike and where, how is it going to be accessible? Cause nothing's worse than that alarm going off for a gel and it being in your backpack and the hydration pack and you can't reach it. And

[00:35:15] - (): Justin Bowes: yeah,

[00:35:15] - (): Craig Dalton: you got to think these things through

[00:35:17] - (): Justin Bowes: for sure.

**** - (): And that's, you know, that's, you know, why we do the gravel simulation rides or the race simulation rides to not only. Get our bodies ready for the duration and the intensity of the race, but also to get our bikes and equipment ready. So, you know, if you're using a certain tire wheel, you know, that's what we're going to use on our gravel simulation ride.

**** - (): Or I can't tell you the number of times where, you know, people are like, Oh yeah, I forgot where I put my tire plug and my CO2, you know, was it in my frame bag or was in my Jersey pocket, you know, and things like that. And to your point. You got to figure out where, you know, what pocket those gels are going in or what pocket the sandwiches are going in or, you know, whatever that may be and what that feels like, because we all know we have to stuff our faces.

**** - (): But we have a finite amount of room, you know, to put it all on because we also have to feel what that bike, you know, feels like over rough terrain, you know, it's one thing to have a really nice light bike, you know, in training, but when it comes to race day and you're not used to your hydration pack, you know, And all the food in all three pockets.

**** - (): And oh, by the way, where am I putting my emergency toolkit, you know, am I taping it to the frame or am I putting in a pocket or a bag and, and all of those things, and so, um, you know, I tell, I tell my athletes, you know, whether you eat at all or not. You know, at least train with it. So, you know, what that feels like, you know, so you know where to access it and what it feels like when you're climbing, because standing with a hydration pack and three pockets full of food, and if you're wearing cargo bibs and your legs are, Bunchy and, you know, bulging and things like that.

**** - (): You know, what does that feel like? And you don't want to show up for a 200 mile race and be like, that's the first feeling that you've ever had, you know, and it's, it doesn't set a great precedent for the rest of the day. A

[00:37:15] - (): Craig Dalton: hundred percent. This has all been super interesting. I want to jump into a couple of specifics around training.

**** - (): Okay. As we've worked together, as I mentioned, you know, I was, I was doing the sweet spot training through the app in. February. And then we started working together the last week of February, first week of March. Right. And I've been pretty consistent since then, knowing that I had this travel date coming up this week on April 3rd, where I'm going to be gone for about 10 days or two weeks of losing two weekends.

**** - (): And that was the big challenge I kind of put to you is like, Hey, I realized this is, I Really screwy. I need to figure out a way this, to make this work. And when we started working together, I started getting on these intervals and getting the consistency of the training program you were laying out. You know, one of the things that cropped up for me was like, gosh, I'm doing all these short intervals, definitely feeling stronger on the bike.

**** - (): There's no question about that. But I had this nagging feeling of like, am I going long enough? And we talked a little bit about this offline, but it's, it's Maybe just for the listener, just kind of lay out, like, how were you approaching this challenge of, Hey, we've got, I guess, three months to get ready.

**** - (): We've got a two week block in the middle where Craig's not available at all.

[00:38:37] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. So it was interesting because like I said, um, We've got a challenge here. You know, this wasn't like, Hey, a year from now, I want to do unbound 200. Um, I probably should, you know, think about getting ready for that. It's like, Hey, I'm doing unbound 200 and we're three months out.

**** - (): And so, um, that in of itself is, you know, a huge challenge just, you know, as, as an athlete to put that, put that on themselves to say, Hey, this is what I'm doing. Uh, but for a coach to hear that it's, it's like. Oh, man, how do we, how do we make that happen? And so, um, I was, I was confident. Um, I shared with you offline, you know, I worked with an athlete a couple of years ago and got her ready for unbound when, and we started working in January of that year to get her ready.

**** - (): She had done unbound before, so she knew it wasn't her first rodeo. So she knew what she was getting into. Um, but still, you know, for a 200 mile race. The 1st of June and starting in January, it's like, okay. And like, at least you had some fitness, her fitness had kind of like dipped way off. Uh, she had just kind of like taken the winter off and was just like, Hey, I'm going back to unbound.

**** - (): I heard you're a great coach. Can you get me ready? And so, you know, part of me was like, Challenge accepted. And then the other part was like, what did I just sign up for? And so I kind of had a little deja vu with you, Craig, um, when this popped up, uh, with you and with you and Frank. But yeah, getting back to your specific training, um, since you had some fitness coming in, Um, what I, how I wanted to approach this was I looked at it in kind of a couple different parts.

**** - (): One, the actual event that we're looking at, but then the main challenge of you being gone for a huge block of time in what I would consider pretty critical timeframe, um, for our training. And so it was kind of like, yeah, we, we definitely need some saddle time. We definitely need to build up to, you know, as close a distance as possible to get ready for, you know, 200 miles and, you know, likely, you know, anywhere from 12 to 15 hours, um, on the bike.

**** - (): So, but there's two weeks where he's not going to have access to actually riding. And so what, what can I do to. jumpstart the training. Um, and that's how I kind of looked at it. It was just like, okay, we gotta put the, uh, put the jumper cables on here and, and give it a jolt and, and see what happens. And so incomes, you know, our bread and butter at fast cat was, you know, our sweet spot training, um, and adding some intervals into those sweet spots as well.

**** - (): So that we're, we're tapping into all of your systems. Um, we're not just sending you out and doing, you know, four hour rides just for the sake of doing four hour rides just to get in, uh, training. That's, that's definitely an approach, but I feel like if we can touch on, you know, some sub threshold, a lot of sweet spot, um, and even some anaerobic work.

**** - (): In the weeks leading up into your two week, um, off period, then we're, we're really, really kickstarting your fitness to get ready for those longer, harder rides that we have planned for you once you get back. Um, and to let the audience know, you know, you're going to be doing a gravel training camp basically the week after you get back, you know, from being gone for two weeks.

**** - (): And so, um, we'll have a couple of active recovery days. after the two weeks off to kind of get you back into the swing of things. But then you're gone to just basically ride as much as you can, um, to build back up that fitness. Um, uh, that not, we're not losing it in those two weeks by any stretch, but it's taken a hit.

**** - (): And so we have to Start addressing the duration and the longer hours in the saddle. So yeah, I mean, looking back on your, your workouts, I mean, we, we've kind of hit it all we've done, you know, everything from 30 thirties to extended, uh, sweet spot, um, intervals, um, some threshold, um, anaerobic over and unders.

**** - (): Um, and for those that don't know what over and unders are, it's basically like a burst of power. For a short amount of time, you know, 20, 30 seconds, and then you settle into a sweet spot, um, or a tempo style, uh, zone for a while. And then you end it with like another, uh, burst of, uh, power at the end of that.

**** - (): And so a couple of things we're doing with that is not only, again, Trying to build up as much aerobic capacity as possible, but also getting you ready for those type of little punchy climbs that you're going to encounter out in the middle of Emporia, Kansas, to where you will have to put out power to get up and over those, but then you're going to get over them and then you're going to settle back into your, your tempo, your sweet spot type of zone.

**** - (): That's going to carry you on, you know, till the next, You know, climb is going, you know, that, that pops up. So that's kind of the thinking behind it. Um, you know, you work full time too. So it's not like you can just like, Hey, uh, give me six hour rides to do. If that was the case, it would look a little different, but because you have a life outside of this, um, we have to be very strategic with your training and take advantage of the time that you do have.

**** - (): And, you know, you do have, oh, you know, time on the weekends to get into longer rides and we've That's what we're doing. That's what we're taking advantage of but during the week when you have to be accountable to your other Other part of your life. We have to get in as much aerobic training as possible And that's what these type of workouts have been designed to do

[00:45:02] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's been super interesting transitioning from indoor training to outdoor training with the power meter and figuring out where I can get the work done.

**** - (): I live in a relatively hilly place, so sometimes it's taken me a bit to just figure out how long will it take me to get to this particular section of road. Where I can do the work required or, you know, go back and forth to do these intervals and make it all work. It's been fascinating. The other sort of funny takeaway for me has been, I swear, like last year, I probably, the, I, the only effort I would ever do would be going uphill.

**** - (): Right here in the Bay area. I mean, there's substantial effort required, but like if I was writing somewhere like writing to Nicosia or some loop around here, I was not writing purposefully at all. I was lollygagging. Like when I look at the power meter now, it's like every, every bit of the workout that's structured, like, I'm like, Oh, I'm actually putting effort in, even if it's like the easy.

**** - (): Period of the workout, right? Because it's all programmed. Right. It's just been fascinating to me and funny. Like I have a lot of chagrin about the whole experience to be honest.

[00:46:14] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, this whole thing has been interesting for me as well, because you know, not only like, you're kind of, you're kind of an anomaly in the sense of like, you've, you've done training in the past, right.

**** - (): With your Ironman background and everything. And it's not like you're some new cyclist, you know, Come lately and just like, this is what I want to do sort of thing. I'm going to hop on the bandwagon. That's not you at all. But to your point, the purposeful training hasn't existed, you know, for a long time.

**** - (): And then like, we're training for, you know, the biggest gravel race in the world. And then also it's like, I haven't been training with power and it's just like, I have to get some power meters. And it's just like, that's definitely going to help. And so, um, Yeah, you know, coaching you with, you know, understanding, you know, again, it's not like you live in a simple area of like, Oh, yeah, I've got an uninterrupted, you know, 30 minute spot that I can go and do intervals on.

**** - (): It's carless and it's flat. It's perfect. You know, it's like, no, you're like, I've got an hour climb this way. And I've got a 45 minute climb that way. And. You know, it's just like, how do we do this? And so, but then also like how, you know, not only coaching you on, you know, how we're going to get you ready, but then also like, how do you ride with power?

**** - (): Not just outside, but how do I ride with power outside? In my environment, you know, that is not conducive to, Oh yeah, I can do a five minute effort here. No problem. Or this over here is like the perfect loop to do my 20 minute test or, you know, anything like that. It's like, so it's, it's been interesting to say the least, but I mean, to your credit though, Craig, I mean, like when I, when I get the alert that your ride has been uploaded and everything.

**** - (): And I take a look at it. And then you, you do a really good job too, of, you know, of following up with comments, um, which note to everybody out there that has a coach, please make comments to your coach. Um, but you know, to be able to see, you know, what you did and you give me the context of, Hey, this is the route that I did.

**** - (): And, you know, I can take a look at it on the GP, uh, GPS file and see like, Whoa. Yeah. That was, A steep one or, you know, longer climb that what we expected, but, uh, you're handling the training. Amazing. Um, and you know, again, to the audience, you know, the purpose here, the last month is, has been to load you up, to load Craig up as much as possible with, uh, workouts.

**** - (): So when he goes into this two week time, it's actually like a recovery period for him to allow his body to soak up as much of the training as possible. Um, and so when he does get back and we do start piling on the hours, his body's ready for that. So.

[00:49:13] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah, I've tried to, tried to stick to the plan , as you guys always say,

[00:49:17] - (): Justin Bowes: FTFP, ,

[00:49:18] - (): Craig Dalton: FTFP.

**** - (): One thing you had mentioned to me in our last conversation was that, you know, my, I forget whether, whether it's the fatigue score in training peaks or something, like we are running in a pretty hard deficit. Yes. And you would normally say like, he's gonna crack at some point. Right. But we, we've been riding, riding that edge and I, yeah, and I feel it, I mean, as an athlete, like I am.

**** - (): Still super motivated to get on the bike, even though I am feeling the fatigue, but I also do feel like I am somewhat on the razor's edge at times and I have to be really cautious about making sure I'm getting the proper rest and the proper fuel in me to kind of recover to go at it. So I am looking forward to.

**** - (): A little bit of time off in the next couple of weeks.

[00:50:02] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah, I bet. No. Um, for those who are, are familiar with training peaks, um, he's talking about his form score or his TSB, um, his training score balance. And, um, a lot of, a lot of coaches, uh, subscribe to this and, you know, I've worn athletes, you know, once we get into that negative 20 to 25, That's like kind of the, those are when the alarm bells start going off of like, Hey, that's usually what we see at the end of a training block.

**** - (): Right. Um, of like a three week build, if we're doing it on that protocol of like, okay, we've gone as far as we really want to push. Um, now it is time for a recovery week, a regenerative week to just allow that, um, work to just soak in and allow your body to recuperate because, you know, in training, the basic training principles are, you know, we throw.

**** - (): stress after stress after stress at you and then your body adapts, adapts, adapts, and then we rest and then it does a full, you know, adaptation and it moves on to the next, you know, training load. And, um, for those who are keeping score at home right now, um, Craig finished the week, um, his CTL was 61, uh, his fatigue or his ATL was 107.

**** - (): And his form is a negative 42, um, leading into this week. Now, today he had a recovery day. He had a foundation stay where his, uh, mobility work, uh, he was off the bike. Um, tomorrow he does have one final threshold, uh, workout to do, but then he is. gone for the next two weeks. Um, and so, as we have it planned out, um, once he comes back, um, to, back home, he will be, his form will have risen back into the positive side with a form, his TSB will be at 28.

**** - (): Um, and so that's well rested and to the point of like, we start losing fitness, um, depending on the individual. Um, and so that's why it's a really, it's a great thing that Craig has this available that he'll be able to go away and do, you know, His own mini, uh, gravel training camp where he'll just have multiple days, you know, in the saddle and we're going to do it to the point.

**** - (): If you don't mind me sharing, Craig, we're going to do it to the point where, you know, we're going to stair step it in because he'll have four days. You have pretty much uninterrupted writing. And I see a lot of times mistakes being made when people go away for a training camp or a team camp or they get their writing buddies together.

**** - (): Hey, we're gone. We're away from home. We're away from work. We're just going to ride, ride, ride. And. Which is all well and good, but if you don't do it the right way, you can ruin your your camp like on day one. And you know, most people like, yeah, let's go smash a six, seven, even eight hour ride. Well, then they're shot for day two and day three.

**** - (): And they're just kind of on the struggle bus, the rest of the camp. And so, um, Craig and I talked, uh, on our last one on one meeting to, you know, stair step those rides so that, you know, day one, um, It's going to be a longer ride, you know, two hours, three hours. That's, that's great. But then that way for the next consecutive days, he can keep adding hours to it as opposed to just doing the biggest ride he can on day one and being torched the rest of the time, because that's not going to do him any good.

**** - (): We're not going to get anything out of this, uh, getaway. If we share ourselves in the foot on day one. So,

[00:53:50] - (): Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah, I'm excited, scared and all the above for, for may. I'm definitely excited to put in the long hours as I mentioned to you in a previous conversation. Like if I was planning this out, I basically would have put every single weekend.

**** - (): Longer and progressively longer distance and more brutal amounts of climbing across the three months remaining. So, you know, it's been, I definitely feel stronger as an athlete already from this approach. Definitely. I'm still concerned about my ability to get to a time volume level that makes me confident showing into the 200 unquestionably.

**** - (): It's, it's unknown. Territory for me. I think the longest I've ever ridden on a bike is 130 miles in a day so that, you know, there's a lot of gray area ahead of me, but I think that is not uncommon for recreational athletes hitting the unbound 200 for the first time. It's the first time for everyone.

[00:54:51] - (): Justin Bowes: And I mean, and to be honest, Craig, there's, there's not many, uh, professional or elite, uh, riders that are training.

**** - (): You know, over 150 miles, you know, and one pop, uh, to get ready for unbound. So you're, you're not alone. Um, but again, it's, it's, it's being strategic with our training and not just writing for the sake of writing. Um, we, we obviously want you to finish and we, and. You know, finishing is one thing, but I want you to enjoy the ride as well and enjoy the, just the environment and being there and being part of it.

**** - (): And if you're just completely gassed because we didn't train you properly, it's, it's just going to be a miserable experience from dawn to dusk basically. And you know, that doesn't do you any good and it doesn't do, you know, anybody any good to, to just, you know, suffer through something. Undeniably, you're going to suffer regardless of, you know, how we train everything like that.

**** - (): That is just a long day. I don't care who you are. Um, and, and it's all relative, right? You know, whether you're Keegan at the front of the race or the very last cutoff finisher, you know, that they keep from the, uh, the checkpoint, the final checkpoint. It's all difficult. Um, and so, um, I'm just trying to make it as less difficult for you.

**** - (): Yeah. Um, yeah, along the way. And

[00:56:17] - (): Craig Dalton: that's definitely one of, you know, one of my stated goals is I want to do it in a healthy way and feel, you know, it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. It's going to be suffering, but I want to, you know, Enjoy the community. I want to enjoy the people I'm around and I want to get to the finish line and be able, you know, not be a shell of myself.

[00:56:34] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, one thing also, um, just real quick, I was thinking, you know, as far as like nutrition and things like that, Um, one thing I haven't shared with you yet, uh, Craig, is I have like a nutrition checklist, um, for your support staff to, you know, at the aid stations. Um, just, you know, suggested this is what you should have not only for Craig, but for yourself and, you know, for, for those who are doing unbound and you guys who are taking, you know, spouses or partners or teammates as, you know, support staff, um, look out for them as well.

**** - (): You know, they, they need to have. Like their own nutrition and hydration plan as well, because they're out there just doing nothing for a long time. And it's helpful just to, you know, think about, Hey, yeah, um, I should have like a couple of different varieties of drink and sandwiches or, you know, whatever their case may be.

**** - (): So

[00:57:33] - (): Craig Dalton: a hundred percent hats off to anybody who supports the athletes endurance events. I know Uh, supporting my wife's Ironman efforts. I felt like it was harder than doing them myself. Oh yeah. Just because you cut, you cut corners, you know, you're not thinking about that. You're actually on your feet all day as well.

[00:57:50] - (): Justin Bowes: Yeah. I know. I remember when Andrea did the Chicago marathon, like I ran from, you know, train stop to train stop so I could, you know, catch her at the different, you know, checkpoints. She thought maybe she'd see me once out on course, but there was like half a dozen times that, you know, you're just running around doing different, um, trying to get to different points on the course.

**** - (): So yeah. Tip your support staff for sure.

[00:58:19] - (): Craig Dalton: Amazing. Justin, thanks so much for the time this evening. Thanks for all your efforts on my behalf to date. Uh, it's been a pleasure working with you thus far, and I'm excited to get to that finish line together.

[00:58:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Oh, for sure. Craig, it's been awesome working with you and yeah, I'm equally as excited.

**** - (): Um, you know, it's, it's one thing for me to be training. You know, for my unbound, but when I'm training multiple athletes, you know, for, for unbound as well. And I just, I, I get, I, yeah, I I'm, I'm right there alongside them, you know, no matter what. Um, and you know, seeing you finish and complete your workouts.

**** - (): And when you, you feed me the comments of like, yes, I'm getting tired, but man, my. You know, my spirits are still high and ready to get on the bike tomorrow and, you know, tackle this next workout and things like that. That's just like a, a check along the way for me knowing that, you know, I'm helping you, you know, achieve something that you really wanted to do.

**** - (): And that's really exciting on my end.

[00:59:22] - (): Craig Dalton: Yeah. Fantastic. I know we'll be checking in. Maybe we'll do something again on the podcast. Um, cool. Yeah. But until I talk to you, Have a great night, Justin. Thank you.

[00:59:32] - (): Justin Bowes: Thank you again, Craig.