A Pastoral Perspective on Cultural Engagement

The Table Podcast - Issues of God and Culture

Darrell Bock

Welcome to The Table where we discuss issues of God and culture. I'm Darrell Bock, Executive Director for Cultural Engagement at the Hendricks Center at Dallas Theological Seminary, and it is my real pleasure to have as our guest today, Erwin Lutzer who has just written this book called The Church in Babylon: Heeding the Call to be Light in the Darkness. Had a forward by Ed Stetzer.

And Erwin is a good conversation partner. He and I have been going back and forth on the status of Christianity in the world for a long, long time.

And it's a real pleasure to have you on, Erwin, to be a part of the table.

Erwin Lutzer

I'm so glad to be here today, Darrell. And, of course, as you know, I'm very grateful for the fact that I graduated from seminary – but that was a long time ago.

Darrell Bock

Well, we share the same seminary, of course. You were a Dallas grad. Now, I don't remember the exact year; when did you graduate from Dallas?

Erwin Lutzer

I graduated way back in 1967.

Darrell Bock

Oh my goodness. So, you got me by 12 years in that category. And you've been at – you were at Moody Church; you're now pastor emeritus, but you were the pastor at Moody Church for how long?

Erwin Lutzer

For 36 years it was my privilege to preach here. And had a great experience here in the city of Chicago.

Darrell Bock

Yep, and we are just – for those of you who are saying, "Man, that is quite an office that you're in," I think I see a portrait of Dwight Moody over your shoulder. Am I right? Is that who that is staring us down as we speak?

Erwin Lutzer

You're right. And as a matter of fact, the longer I've been here, the more impressed I am by this man's incredible ministry. What a man of God he was, a man of vision, a man of passion, just an unbelievable evangelist.

Darrell Bock

Well, the – obviously the ability that he had to plant the whole Mood operation in the middle of Chicago. And then the impact that that's had in the Chicagoland area for a long time is something that's very well know, and you can't read a history of evangelicalism in America without coming across a chapter that talks about his significance.

Erwin Lutzer

That's right. And the significance continues to go on. Recently, I was in Massachusetts, where we are beginning a Moody Center. The very house in which he was born, the house in which he died, also his grave and that of his wife – all that area now we're going to develop as a place for, hopefully, a hub for evangelism and revival in New England.

Darrell Bock

Well, that's great to hear. Well, I want to thank you for taking the time to be with us. I haven't actually, other than naming the book, named the topic, and you really are concerned about kinda the status in the church in what has been a shifting world. And tell us why you wrote The Church in Babylon.

Erwin Lutzer

Well, you know, when I look back on the Old Testament and try to find a parallel between where we are today and Israel, it's difficult because, as we know, Israel was in a different era. We don't stone false prophets today; they are on television, and they can hawk their wares.

But when I looked at it, I realized that when Israel was taken into Babylon, strictly speaking Judah, of course, going into Babylon, the Jews, they were now a minority in the midst of a majority pagan culture. And that's really where we are at. And the most remarkable thing, among other things, is this

that God is the one who sent them there, under discipline, because of their disobedience. And yet the Lord says, "When you are there, I want you to represent Me."

So, the purpose of my book, if I might put it in a single sentence, is, "How do we live at a time when oftentimes the Church is criticized for its lack of impact?" I don't take that dim a view of the Church necessarily. But how do we live at a time when our light is perceived as darkness? Or to put it differently, how do we live faithfully in a culture that has lost its way?

And, you know, Jeremiah was not called to success; he was called to faithfulness. And that's where we have to be in the midst of our generation as well.

Darrell Bock

Yep. And it's interesting that you've gone back to the Old Testament for that picture. I often do a message in which I say, "If we want to understand where the Church is headed today, we really need to go back to the future, that we have to look back at the way things were, even for the early Church. They had no social status, no political power, and yet the faithfulness with which they represented God laid the foundations for what became the Church and what has become the Christian faith.

And I think you're right to take us back to these places where the people of God exist as a minority in the midst of majority and ask the question

how do you – how do you represent God in that context? And how do you – how do you show the presence of God to people who are even wrestling with who God is?

I'm reminded of the passage in Jeremiah, where it says – you know, they're sent to Babylon, not exactly the greatest culture that's ever been created by the human race, and they're told to pray for the city, and to serve the city, and to engage in ways that are – that reflect people who care about God and care about their neighbor.

So, it's an interesting choice. I know another book that you zeroed in on, as an example to reflect on, is the book of Daniel. Why did you pick that book as a place for reflection as well?

Erwin Lutzer

Well, that really helps us to understand the Jews in Babylon. You have Daniel here – and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego – who become advisors to a king that is so wicked, his armies took babies – Jewish babies – and threw them against the rocks. And God says, "I want you to make him a success."

And one of the lessons we learn, and that I tease out in the book, is this. In this culture, we have to ask ourselves what aspects of culture can we accept? Because they accepted a lot. In fact, they were taken through deep levels of training for three years; they had to learn a new language; they had to learn Babylonian customs. And somehow they put up with all that.

So, there's part of the culture that we can accept, but we also have to draw a line in the sand and say, "We cannot cross this line." For Daniel it was food, because possibly the food was not kosher. But then you get to the third chapter, and here the king asks them to bow in front of the image, and they say, "We will not bow." That's a clear line. And, Darrell, I find that in this culture, many Christians have to make up their mind as to where that line is.

Let me give you one example. Here at the Moody Church, there is a teacher in our school system, and he said he was told that it is not only necessary for him to tolerate same-sex marriage, but if he doesn't celebrate it, he could lose his job. So, there's a line in the sand. A teacher – a Christian teacher can be in a system and maybe tolerate this and, so to speak, put up with it, but if you're asked to celebrate what God has condemned, there's a line there that you cannot cross.

So, I try to help people to understand that there are some things in the culture that we can accept, much of it we have to reject. And then I challenge people, of course, with this question

are we willing to have to have the courage that we need to draw that line and to say, "I'm willing to take the consequences as long as I'm committed to obedience to the Lord"?

Darrell Bock

Yeah, and I think you're right that the key attitude or virtue that we're supposed to display is faithfulness. You know, sometimes we get into the discussion about how popular a decision might be, or how it might affect numbers or things like that. And we really have to think through the faithfulness of the way we represent God as we function in the culture and what He's asking us to be as people.

Erwin Lutzer

Exactly. And as we do that, though, it is so important for us to be totally committed, no matter what the consequences are. You know, Darrell, I think one of the greatest expressions of faith in all the Bible is found in Daniel chapter 3, when Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego say, "Oh, King, it is not necessary for us to answer you about this. We don't have to go into a long discussion. We believe that our God will deliver us from the fiery furnace. But if He doesn't, let it be known unto you, O King, that we will not bow."

When they were thrown into that furnace, they had no absolute assurance that they would be delivered. They didn't know that the fourth man would come and walk among them. But they said, "Either way, we live with the consequences."

So, what we as a Church need to do is, as you properly pointed out at the beginning, is to realize that throughout history, the Church has always faced this issue of whether or not it is willing to suffer – and to suffer righteously and correctly – not in anger, but considering it all joy.

Something else, Darrell, that I point out in the book that I think is so important is that in the minds of Nebuchadnezzar and the Babylonians, their god, Marduk, won. When they came to Jerusalem, they took back the vessels of the temple, and they put them in the temple of Marduk. Every time these four Hebrew boys walked past those vessels to go to the king, they were reminded, "Jehovah lost; our god won."

And here's the challenge for the Church

at a time when it seems as if we are losing so much – we basically lost the culture war, as we know – can we continue to recognize the sovereignty of God, because even in Babylonian, even in Daniel, it says, "The Lord sent you there, and the Lord gave to them favor." We have to know that God is in charge, even when it appears as if His people are losing.

Darrell Bock

Yeah. And when we think about the ministry of Jesus – and I often talk about this when I'm talking on the Gospels – he spent the entire second half of His ministry, when He was preparing the disciples for the fact that He was going to face death, and they were going to be without Him, telling them, "If you follow Me, you're gonna get pushback just as I have gotten. You're gonna have to be able to bear your cross daily."

And I sometimes think that we in the Church, if I can say it this way, whine a little too much. We don't anticipate the fact that the Lord told us that when you operate in a religion that is countercultural, there will be pushback from that culture that you can expect, and that comes with the territory.

And so, having the – a strong enough identity in the Lord to be able to face that, to not be afraid of it, to not be terrorized by it, as 1 Peter 3 says – you know, that we're not supposed to be afraid. We're not supposed to respond out of a sense of feeling terror, but out of a place of confidence that we are in God's hands. And that He cares for us, in the midst of this, is an important part of, really, the backdrop to engaging successfully in pursuing faithfulness.

Erwin Lutzer

You know, the average American Christian believes that if the Church were really all that it should be, we would have no persecution. We'd have a government that would be favorable to us; we would have laws that favor us and so forth. And that's not been true throughout history. The Church has always been an island of righteousness in a sea of paganism.

And, you know, Darrell, when I wrote that book, I asked myself, "What is our Babylonian today?" Because we live in a very different culture, of course. And that's why I wrote a chapter on the media, for example, technology, which I think is stealing the hearts of many of our young people. And I deal with a variety of other subjects because I believe strongly that the Church has to speak to the cultural issues of the day.

Now, as a pastor, I've always believed that it is important for a pastor to speak to the controlling realities of the culture. And it's fine to do expositions through books. I've done that, of course. I also have done a lot of topical exposition.

But when the culture is swirling with issues such as transgenderism or same-sex marriage, when the culture is swirling with issues such as immigration, we must be able to handle that in a way that is compassionate, that holds to truth, and yet, at the same time, with such a sense of brokenness, a sense of humility so that we recognize and we walk that very fine line between love and truth, which you and I know has always been a challenge for the Church.

Darrell Bock

That's right. And I tell people, when you share the gospel, you're always dealing with a tension between the challenge that the gospel is to the way people live in the world and the hope that the gospel has encased within it that's designed to say, "You don't have to be who you've been, that there's a way to reconnect to the living God, to draw on His power and resources so that you can live the way you were designed to live when He made you in His image." And that tension never goes away, and we have to face up to it.

And Christians should have a special sense of what that tension is. They should have an awareness of where they've come from, on the one hand, and who they were before they met the Lord. That should build in a humility, because everything that we have we have as a result of the grace of God.

Erwin Lutzer

You know, Darrell, in the book I have a chapter entitled "Five False Gospels within the Evangelical Church." And the first false gospel I deal with is permissive grace because there is also a side to this that is happening, in our culture and evangelical circles, where the grace of God is preached in such a way that you almost get the impression, "I love to sin; God loves to forgive; we've got a great thing going."

And what we need to do – in ancient times – and, of course, not only in ancient times, but in biblical times – we have to preach about sin and do so compassionately so people know that they need the abundant, undeserved grace of God.

But today what you find is that there are many people who preach grace even before people really know that they need it. So, as you've explained, walking that line between helping people to see how badly they have sinned and how desperately they need a Savior, that's, of course, the challenge of the Church today – and has always been the challenge of the Church.

Darrell Bock

And, you know, when I think about this, I think about the way in which Western culture in particular makes people feel entitled, as if God owes them something just by their mere presence on the planet.

And I think that entitlement eats away an appreciation for what grace really means, because, you know, you don't come to God with a sense of, "Have mercy on me; I'm a sinner"; you come to God with an attitude of saying, "Well, I can bargain with You about this, and You really owe me in one way or another."

The moment you do that, you take away the depth of the beauty of what it means to truly be forgiven and to be forgiven deeply. And when you have the sense that you're forgiven, and you've been forgiven deeply, you have an appreciation for the person who bestows that forgiveness upon you when it's not deserved.

And I think we miss that in our churches, in our culture in general, because we've been accustomed to thinking, "Oh" – like a consumer – "I'm owed this." You know? The consumer is everything. And in fact, there's much that we have in the Church that we receive not because we earn it or because we deserve it, but simply because God has been very gracious to us in the process.

Erwin Lutzer

You know, in the book I think I quote Thomas Watson. I know I have the quote there. I think it was he who said, "Grace is not sweet until sin is bitter." So, we have to understand and help people to understand that sin is bitter. We are born sinners, and we commit sins; its consequences are disastrous. And once they understand that, they will appreciate the fact of God's undeserving grace toward us. And you're absolutely right; we need people to understand that God owes us nothing; it is all of grace.

Darrell Bock

Now, that means that Christians in particular should be people who are characterized by reflecting what it means to be recipients of this kind of grace. And there's a wonderful line in 1 Peter 3, in the midst of discussing – you know, "You need to set Christ apart as Lord in your hearts and be prepared to give it defense for the hope that is in you."

Do so with courtesy and respect, but just a few lines down, when it's explaining why you're doing this, it talks about Christ dying, the just for the unjust, to bring you – meaning the reader – to God. You're never supposed to forget where you came from. You're never supposed to forget that as a recipient of grace, there is a humility with which you engage the world, even in the midst of this challenge conversation that we're talking about. Talk to us about how important this tone is to what we do.

Erwin Lutzer

Well, to what we do – you mean in terms of how we speak?

Darrell Bock

How we speak, and how we interact with the culture at large, and how we even present ourselves in the midst of offering the challenge of what the gospel is about.

Erwin Lutzer

Well, let me talk about something specific, since as a pastor we all have to deal with this. Let's talk about same-sex attraction, 'cause that's oftentimes a flashpoint in our culture. How do we talk about that?

And as you know, the Church is divided on that issue. Even evangelicals oftentimes submitting to the demands of culture. So, I explain it this way

our challenge is to be welcoming, but at the same time not affirming. So, we are called to do both.

On the one hand, with outstretched arms, we say with Jesus, who made that marvelous statement, "Come unto Me all ye who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest." So, the invitation is to everyone. And with the humility that you are talking about, we speak about these issues.

But at the same time, we have to help our congregations understand why it is that we continue to hold to the biblical norm for marriage; why this is a very critical thing – not only because of what God has revealed, but also what the impact is on our families and so forth.

So, how do we talk about it? We talk about it with humility, not judgmentalism. If all that we can do is point fingers at the culture and tell them that they are going to hell – if that's all that we can do, as you and I know, that just turns people off. And sometimes the Church has really turned a lot of people off because it has preached the truth, but it has preached it self-righteously.

And I frequently say that it is much easier for us to repent of our sin than it is for us to repent of our self-righteousness. Because self-righteousness is so difficult to detect in our lives, because we look at it, and we think, "I'm righteous; I'm right." And we might be right, in terms of our doctrine but it's not gonna be received unless it is received with humility.

Just yesterday, I read that passage, in John chapter 8, where Jesus took the woman who had committed adultery and said those gracious words to her, after the men all left because they were adulterers, too, "Go and sin no more."

I mean if we can do that, on the one hand not justifying the sin, but on the other hand granting grace, that's the challenge of the Church in this culture.

Darrell Bock

Yeah. And it's an – I think it's central. I sometimes joke with people that the Church is guilty of what I call Jimmy Cagney theology, "You dirty rat; you shouldn't be doing that." And that's about all people hear about the message that we have, when in fact, on the other end, there's this terrific opportunity of hope.

I was in class today with our students in Luke, and we were talking about how many people see people as they were and are – as sinners. But Jesus saw people for what they could be if they reconnected to the living God, and that's not the same person; that's a changed person; that's a person who God impacts through His grace.

And because of that, He took the initiative with sinners and connected with them. And somehow, they sensed from Him, even in the midst of an awareness that He was going to challenge the way that they live, that He was out for the best for them. And they were drawn to Him. And I think the Church has much to learn from that example.

Erwin Lutzer

If I might use Dwight L. Moody as an example, since I happen to have been the pastor here for 36 years. The other day, when I was preaching at the Moody Center in Massachusetts, I quoted part of his sermon. And he said, "A young man came to me yesterday and believed that he was too great a sinner to be saved. And I said to him, 'Those are the exact people that Jesus came to this world for.' And then he said, 'You show me that you are a great sinner, and I will show you that I have a great Savior.'"

So, the point is this

that we need to reach out to those who think that there's no hope for them. And we have to recognize that if they come to trust Christ and connect with God, to use your language, there is hope, and there is acceptance, and there is a sense of self-worth. All of that is developed because of the gospel.

Darrell Bock

Yeah, in fact, at the core of the gospel is the provision of an enablement through the Spirit of God indwelling us, a capability that we did not have otherwise, which is why Paul said in Romans, "I'm not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God unto salvation."

I tell people I used to read that passage wrongly for a long time. I used to read it as, "I'm not ashamed of the gospel 'cause it is the salvation of God, to the Jew first and to the Greek." And I had no idea what the word "power" was doing in that verse.

And then, all of a sudden, it dawned on me

if I read Romans as a storyline, as a plot, what you see is is that we were powerless in our sin. That's chapters 1 to 3, until we get to the turning point in chapter 3. God justifies us by His grace, and he gives us His Spirit. And it doesn't stop there, as if our forgiveness of sins is the end of the story, but you get 6 to 8, in which the Spirit of God indwells us, and now, in chapter 8, we're walking alongside God and experiencing life.

So, that enablement is a earthly important part of what God gives. And what that says to people, particularly the person who says, "Well, I'm not sure if I'm capable of doing this; I'm not sure if I'm capable of the kinds of things that God is asking me," is to give them the assurance that not only does God forgive you for what you've done, but he actually gives you the capability to be a different kind of person as a result of being reconnected with Him.

Erwin Lutzer

You know, Darrell, I'm gonna go back and pick up on that verse that you quoted, "I am not ashamed of the gospel." Rebecca and I have two grandsons, and they are in college now. We're not so afraid that they'll be talked out of their faith as that they will be mocked out of their faith.

And today we're living at a time when Christians are mocked into silence, ultimately to shame. And you find that there are a lot of Christians who don't witness because they are shamed into silence. And that's why I think it is so important for us to preach what Paul said there, "I am not ashamed of the gospel."

You know, many of us pray for revival here in America; I know I do, and tens of thousands do. But I believe that there will never be a revival in America unless the – quote – average Christian, the person who works in a factory, a bank, a hospital – wherever they find themselves – that they lovingly witness to the gospel and are not intimidated by a culture that has told us that if we believe the gospel, we ought to shut our mouths, and we ought to keep it to ourselves.

Unless we overcome that fear, we are not going to be having a great impact in America. It's not going to happen, I don't think, from a top-down experience. Evangelist Billy Graham has died; I don't think there'll be another Billy. And even if there were, it's gonna happen from the ground up.

And that's why, to everyone who's listening to this podcast, no matter who you are, if you're a believer, begin to share Christ with people. Ask them where they are at on their spiritual journey, let them talk, befriend them, and God will enable you to build bridges into their lives that I think oftentimes become fruitful.

Darrell Bock

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean I think that the issue of shame goes back to a passage we were already discussing earlier, which is the ability to bear a cross daily. You know, that is about bearing the shame and rejection that inevitably comes from walking a distinct path.

And I'm not saying that's easy; that's why you need the enablement to be able to do it. But it is part of the – it is part of the route; it is part of the road that we launch into when we become people who are learners, who are disciples and who follow the way of Christ. If you follow His way, He says the disciple's gonna be like the teacher. And so, you can expect the same kind of response.

So, in a real sense, you know, there's an irony here, because the world that we are finding ourselves in more and more as the Church is actually more like the world is in most of the world, and it's more like the world the way has always been.

Then perhaps what we have come out of, in the sense that we have come out of a period in which the Christian Church had a very significant and central role in a lot of the society here in the United States, and that position has been lost. You already alluded to the fact that we've lost the culture war. That would be a whole nother podcast to discuss how that happened.

But anyway – and so we're back to where we were. And, in some ways, we're back to where we ought to be, with the realization that the people around us – that all people around us, no matter who we are, need what God can provide through the gospel.

Erwin Lutzer

You know, the Bible says that there is an offense to the cross. I'm amazed at the number of Christians who say, "Well, I don't witness because I didn't want to offend him." Well, in a sense, if you share the gospel, it's very hard to not offend somebody.

So, what we have to do is to get over these cultural streams that are so powerful, that tell us that, "I don't want to be offended. And, you know, what you did or what you said, offended me."

And what we need to do is to get past that and carry the cross and say, "Even if it is an offense." You know, about some of these matters, such as, if we might get back even to the sexual issues which are so prominent in our society, I talk about the need for brokenness and all, but I also say this, that it is better even to be thought harsh and to tell the truth than to tell lies with soft tones of whispering and compassion.

So, what we need to do is to have the courage to tell the truth, to do it in humility, but to let the truth float out there and take whatever flak might be connected with it.

Darrell Bock

So, let's talk about some of these issues that you raise culturally. You say you start off talking about five myths that we currently have to deal with. Walk us quickly through those. What are those and kind of what's the way to deal with them?

Erwin Lutzer

Okay. The first is – I already commented on permissive grace. The second is the social justice gospel. Now, I find that many people, not just Millennials, they're into social justice. Well, that, of course, can be defined in many different ways. For some people it's Marxism; for some it's just social work. What often happens, though, is that the gospel of personal conversion is actually left behind, and it is not paramount.

So, you have the social justice gospel. And I say that no matter – social justice, no matter how well done, at its best is not the gospel. It may be the result of the gospel, depending on how it's defined. I mean you can go to Africa and all of the various hospitals were built by missionaries. So, we've always had a social conscience, but social justice is not the gospel. The gospel is not what we can do for Jesus; it's what Jesus has done for us.

So, let's hurry on. The next one that I discuss is the intrusion of new age teaching into much of what we talk about today in spirituality. Now, I'm glad for spiritual formation classes that help all of us walk in the spirit, but oftentimes, those are combined with Eastern religions. And so, I discuss that there. Even contemplative prayer – and I believe in contemplating when I pray – but even there are forms of contemplative prayer that are quite Eastern.

And then I discuss Father Rohr, a Catholic who wrote a book that is a best seller because of young evangelicals I'm told. And it's total pantheism. It is totally Eastern, and yet people are reading it. And because it uses verses of Scripture, they think it's right.

The next one is the gospel of my sexuality, where you have people saying that – you know, you have a lot of evangelicals who want to claim to be evangelicals, who today are accepting same-sex marriage because love is being defined in such a way that it's contrary to Scripture. So, you have love and inclusion and all of these things that are contrary to Scripture, but they are being promoted today.

And then the last, Darrell, is not really a false gospel, but it has to do with interfaith dialogue. I discovered that there are evangelicals who invite Muslims into their churches for an interfaith dialogue. Now, I'm not opposed to debates. And, of course, I argue also that we need to befriend Muslims; we could talk about that even when it comes to other issues.

But I have a book. It was a book written by Muslims for Muslims on how to make Islam palatable and acceptable to American audiences. And many evangelicals even have these kinds of dialogues, and they don't understand what's going on.

So, you have statements in a book like this that Islam has always defended the righteous of women. And Islam has always been on the forefront of civil rights. And Mohammad was a man of peace who tried to bring Jews and pagans and everyone together. And basically, it deals with how do you take Islam to an audience that probably has never even seen a Quran, much less read it, or the Hadith, and how do you sell them on a version of Islam that will be acceptable? And many people are falling for this, and I warn against it in the book.

Darrell Bock

Now, we have time to – I want to discuss three other topics, but I want to come back to one of the things that you mentioned which is the gospel and social gospel discussion. 'Cause I think that one, in particular, needs, for lack of a better term, some nuance.

And here's what I mean

the gospel is distinct from the social gospel. As you said it, the individual conversion gospel is – and an individual need to have sins forgiven and to reestablish a relationship with God – that's the gospel.

But how we relate to people, coming out of the gospel, that the Great Commission is designed to make us disciples and draw us towards the great commandment, which is to love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. And if you do that, one of the great witnesses for the gospel, provided you don't shed it, is the way we interact and treat other people so that –

Erwin Lutzer

Exactly. Let me just jump in here, Darrell. I agree totally. I mean Jesus said, "Let your light shine so that when people see your good works they may glorify God which is in heaven."

So, properly understood, the gospel results in good works, in good deeds towards others in social implications and social work and all the rest. I'm simply saying that there are those who substitute that work for the gospel, and that's what I'm warning against.

Darrell Bock

Yeah, and I think that what can happen in that conversation is we end up pulling those two things so much apart that we end up forgetting that the way in which we interact and treat other people becomes a means of witness. In fact, a powerful means of witness for the gospel that we are seeking to espouse.

I think it's no accident, in Ephesians 2, that you get the great – what we might call Protestant verse – you know, that salvation is by grace through faith, not of works lest anyone should boast. And then the next line is, "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

And then the next example – but we usually break it off, because that's where the section ends – is the ability – is the ministry of reconciliation that the gospel brings between Jew and Gentile, pulling them into the body, through the gospel, but also relating them to one another in a way that is completely transforming. And thus – and that's something we're supposed to be a witness to and push towards.

Erwin Lutzer

Exactly. And what I say also is that the unity between races and between various nationalities, Revelation chapter 5, that is the most powerful witness to the gospel. When we love people who are totally different from us, except that we are members of the same body, that's what is a powerful witness to the gospel.

Darrell Bock

Yeah. And you almost need to write commentary on it because it's so – you're talking about something that's countercultural. That is inherently countercultural; you don't even – when it happens, it catches so by surprise that they go, "What's going on here? How could that be?"

Erwin Lutzer

Well, you know, if Moody Church, on any given Sunday morning, Darrell, we have people from more than 70 different countries of origin. And I told people that this is the best way to prepare for heaven, where there are going to be people from every tongue and nation and language represented.

Darrell Bock

So, with that as background, I said I had three issues I wanted to cover. So, we're running rapidly out of time, unfortunately. Let's talk about immigration, which I view as a challenge.

Erwin Lutzer

Yeah.

Darrell Bock

On the one hand, you've got – a society has a right to pick what kind of society it's gonna be; it has a right to expect that its laws are gonna be followed. And you want to honor law because, obviously, you don't have a stable society if you don't have a law-abiding society. All of that is important.

And then you add, on top of that, the threats that come from certain kinds of people who are trying to get into the country; you have security concerns. All of that's completely legitimate and very, very important to defend.

On the other hand, you have these other tacks that talk about how you treat the foreigner, the compassion that you're supposed to show, the awareness and appreciation and respect that you give to any human because they're made in the image of God, et cetera.

So, put that package together for us when we think about immigration. And I could say in 25 words or less, but I'll be kind and give you more than that.

Darrell Bock

First of all, I wrote that chapter and emphasized that in Islam, immigration, for the radicals at least, is a form of jihad. You go into other countries to spread the work of Islam. But that's not really why I wrote the chapter; that's only the intro.

The reason I wrote it, Darrell, is because I feel that there's so much confusion. I heard a pastor say, in effect, that the gospel says, "Whosoever will may come," so, we as a nation should say, "Whosoever will may come." And I strongly disagree. I don't believe that you can run a nation based on personal ethics.

How would you like to run a nation based on the idea that if somebody slaps you on the right cheek, the nation should offer them the left? What we have to do is to distinguish those. And the morality of the Church, where we welcome anyone and where we are kind, is not the morality by which you can run the state. The state should be compassionate whenever it can be, but you cannot run a state on the basis of compassion.

And this whole idea that, you know, Jesus was an immigrant; his parents took Him down there, well, number one, we don't know that He broke any laws, that His parents broke any laws, but number two, that has nothing to do with American foreign policy or national policy, or even the foreigner in Israel had to be a proselyte, basically coming into the Israeli faith.

And so, you know, America isn't Israel. So, I take the point of view that there is nothing in the Bible that says that a nation does not the right to say who comes within its borders.

Now, what is the role of the Church? Of course the role of the Church can be to lobby our government, in whichever way they want, to be compassionate, to have a method by which people can become citizens and so forth. But to say that we should have, in effect, open borders, and that we owe it to other people because of who we are and because of who America is, I disagree with that.

I think the responsibility – let me put it for you in 25 words, okay?

Darrell Bock

Mm-hmm.

Erwin Lutzer

The symbol of the state, in the New Testament, is the sword to keep order, to make sure that we have a stable society. The symbol of the Church is the cross, become involved in the life of everyone. When the Good Samaritan was there, he didn't ask the fallen man, "What religion do you belong to? Are you here legally?" We help whomever we can. And I tell stories of the Church reaching out to immigrants, ministering to them, and that is our privilege. But let's keep those two lines distinct.

Darrell Bock

Now, when I think about this, I say, "What we have is, for lack of a better description, a kind of tension. We live in a fallen world, and the fallen world brings with it tensions between sets of concerns. And what I find, I think, disappointing about the immigration discussion is is that I find people who want to talk about one side of the tension or the other side of the tension – either the right of a nation to define who it is and what its laws are, or a choice for compassion, which sometimes translates, if not into open borders, certainly not very much of a vetting process.

And I ask myself – actually what we need, and this is the beauty of being in a democracy, because we can ask our government to think about these kinds of questions, is how do you balance those two? How do you protect the legitimate concerns of a nation on the one hand, for its integrity and for the peaceables and law-abiding nature of its citizens, and how do you express that in a compassionate kind of way that does allow forms of integration, which we've always allowed, and which is actually helped to make our country what it is? How do we balance those two?

And the discussion that we seem to struggle to have, that we need to have, is how do you – what's the relationship by the way these two things as opposed to picking exclusively one or exclusively the other?

Does that way of thinking about it help us as we think about what – kind of how the Church should advocate as a citizen in a democracy about what it is that we face?

Erwin Lutzer

Sure. I have no problem with that at all. I think that that's the role of the Church, to advocate for what you're talking about. I totally agree that America has always been very generous in welcoming people. I think that they should be allowed to come here legally, in accordance with our laws. I'm simply saying that let's make sure that the state has its responsibility, the Church has its, and let's recognize that both of those have their two spheres.

In America here, people want to come here; we should do what we can to be able to accommodate them. But let's not think that the government owes it to all kinds of people who are coming here simply because they want a better life. We're thankful that our government has been able to do that throughout the years; we hope it will continue. We hope it will continue, and it's the responsibility of us as citizens to advocate for whatever we want to advocate.

Darrell Bock

M-kay. Let's shift gears. We've talked a little bit on sexuality, but I know you're concerned about transgenderism. Let's talk about that. Let me go ahead and put the third topic on the table so that we get to it, and that is I want to talk about how we talk about people.

Erwin Lutzer

Okay.

Darrell Bock

So, that'll be the third one. So, secondly, let's talk about transgenderism, which is – we've talked a little bit about same-sex marriage, but transgenderism is kind of the new thing that came after, if I can say it that way. And I'll never forget this: the day after the Obergefell decision was laid down, right after that – if it wasn't the day after, it was in the first week – there was a leading article in The New York Times about how people could pick their genders as they entered into college.

And I sent an e-mail to our president, Mark Bailey, on that day, with this – I forwarded this article to him, and I said, "I wish they'd let us work through one thing before they bring up another." You know? It was all – you know, so on top of itself.

And this seems to have been thrust upon us more recently as people try and argue, you know, about who they are as people and the way in which they've been made. Talk to us about what your pastoral concern is on transgenderism.

Erwin Lutzer

All right. And I will make this brief, but I have some deep convictions about this. In the book, I tell the story of Paul Wolscht who is 53, who left his wife and 4 children, and he identifies as a 6-year-old girl, and now he plays with dolls, and he has a mommy and a daddy.

So, here's the question

does he have a mind problem, or does he have a body problem? I think he has a mind problem. The man who had his arm cut off because he didn't feel that his arm was really a part of who he was – healthy arm cut off – is he – does he have a mind problem or a body problem? Or the woman who starves herself to death with anorexia?

Now, here is the point

if a child comes to you and say, "I think I'm transgender," you have to give that child – and you have to paint the alternatives. One is to say, "Okay, you're feeling within you is – you're a boy, but you feel as if you're a girl. You can go through all kinds of surgeries to somehow make your body fit your mind, and that'll lead to a lot of depression. As you know, the suicide rate among those who actually have body manipulation and mutilation is huge, but you can pursue somehow to try to get that alignment that way."

The other way is to say, "You know, the problem isn't really with my body; the problem is how I feel; the problem is with my mind." So, rather than ignoring the feelings that you have and the pain you have, lean into that pain.

And you may even grieve that you do not have certain experiences or feel whatever normalcy is. You may even grieve that, but grief actually is the one pain that overcomes other pains, and that grief and that realization and acceptance will bring a sense of wholeness and connection and a feeling of – that you're doing the best you can to live within God's parameters.

And then I argue – and you know, Darrell, I know that you're an Old Testament scholar, so you may disagree with this, but I'll throw this out – that in principle, Isaiah 56 applies, where God talks about the eunuch that is faithful. He says, "I will give you an inheritance that is better than sons and daughters."

I believe that as pastors and as churches, we have to begin to exalt celibacy. You know, a boy is born perhaps with no natural connection or desire for girls. We say, "Oh, he must be gay." No, you know, Jesus talked about three different kinds of eunuchs. He even talked about those that are born this way.

So, what we have to do is to say to people, "It is better for you to lean into your pain, to be able to deal with that and, if necessary, grieve over the pain, but that will be an experience that is life-giving, and you'll have a better sense of self-identity than if you mutilate your body to try to get it to align with your mind."

Darrell Bock

And, you know, another thing that comes with this is that when a child comes to a parent and says this, sometimes the parent overreacts. And what I mean by that is is they say – they take the child's remark as establishing who they are, when in fact, that may not be the case. It may be the child is simply confused. It may be that the child is simply exploring, especially given the culture that we have right now, that kind of thing.

And so – and actually, this feedback that I'm giving you comes from Mark Yarhouse who spent his career studying these kinds of situations. And so, he says, in effect, "Don't overreact as a parent, and don't assume that because a child or a teenager tells you something, that that's necessarily the way it is." 'Cause there is a progression in how people come to establish this sense of identity, and your conversation with that child can cut that process off, of o can say it that way. It can alter the way in which the child is viewing it.

And so, sometimes I think we stumble into the problem because we think, "Well, my child has said this to me; that must be the way that it is; there's no real sense in pushing back," you know, that kind of thing. And then the process just can continue to flow without – without actually engaging the child on what it is and where they may really be as opposed to what they have perhaps even poorly expressed.

Erwin Lutzer

Exactly. Eighty percent of all teenagers who say that they are transgender end up not being that; it was a phase. And, Darrell, my heart is heavy here for another reason. Just yesterday I was on a talk show where there was a woman who said that her daughter is feeling pressure at school to be transgender, because the cultural current there is so strong that somehow if you aren't transgender, you aren't really cool.

So, our kids feeling this tremendous pressure. And you know that those pressures bring about sexual confusion – dysphoria as the word is – and this is what we are up against. But what we need to do as churches, Darrell, is talk about this. And I believe that the Church has a role to instruct and to help parents talk about it. Don't panic. Work through this with your child and assure them. And on the show, there was somebody who said that their little three-year-old boy, in a car just said recently, "I am a boy." And he said, you know, that really is good; he is a boy.

So, we have to help people see here that transgenderism oftentimes is the result of abuse, bullying, rejection. There may be other causes, but don't mutilate your body. Think in terms of aligning the mind with your body rather than the body with the mind.

Darrell Bock

And I think part of your remark about the cultural pressure means that we're gonna see more of this emerging not because there's something real going on, but because of the pressures that sometimes are foisted on young people. And the Church being able to engage and address this wisely is something that needs to be done. And unfortunately, oftentimes in the Church, we think by keeping silent and not bringing it up, we're protecting children and protecting young people, when in fact, all that we may be doing is opening the door for the possibility.

Erwin Lutzer

Darrell, I believe it is so important for a pastor to not pretend that these issues do not reside in his church; of course there are people in the Church. I've known people here at Moody Church who struggled with identity issues. So, unless we're open about that, and we are welcoming, even though we cannot always be affirming, then we're just cutting people off.

So, I'm saying let's have a safe place where people can have conversations about this, where they will not simply be condemned but where they will be heard, and then we can guide them from there.

Darrell Bock

Okay. The last topic that I want to cover is how we talk about one another. And there's been a lot recently – I would say over the last few years – about how different groups address and talk about different groups. This is another area where I think the Church has a calling to lead and be an example in the way we address and talk about other people, particularly people very different than our own.

You know, when the text says, "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son," that term "world" is broad. It covers lots of races, lots of ethnicities, people made in the image of God, et cetera.

So, talk to us about how, again, from a pastoral point of view, how you see the way we talk about people very different than us and what the challenges are for the Church, particularly in this environment.

Erwin Lutzer

Well, I think the first thing is that we have to be deeply convinced, as we are, that we should treat one another with care, because after all, everybody's created in the image of God. And so, what we need to do is to help people to understand that they have value. And that's true even if perhaps they were born out of wedlock, conceived out of wedlock; you have all the brokenness that is going on.

And one of the things that we have to do is to say that God's grace is sufficient for this, that God had us in mind when Jesus died on the cross. So, I think it all has to do with treating people with respect, listening to them, hearing their stories without a sense of judgmentalism. And that, I think, is foundational in terms of how we speak to people.

If we talk down to them – again I go back to what I said earlier about self-righteousness – you know, you think of Jesus who said all these gracious things to sinners, but if anybody wants to know what Jesus thought of the self-righteous Pharisees, just read Matthew chapter 23 –

Darrell Bock

That's right.

Erwin Lutzer

– and I'll tell you something, it'll just blow you away. You read it and you say, "Did Jesus actually say that?"

So, with humility, we treat each other with respect, and we honor them. But at the same time, we give them the Good News.

Darrell Bock

Yep. I often say to people, when I get – sometimes I'll get pushback in talking about this in terms of respect, and they'll say, "Well, Jesus was hard on people."

And I say, "Yeah, did you pay attention to who He was hardest on? He was hardest on those who should have known better, and He was hardest on those who thought they had their act completely together and didn't really need what it is that God could provide."

So, I see that as a warning to us, 'cause I think it's easy for believers to slip into a form of self-righteousness where they impute what God has given them to their own self-talents and, in the process, suddenly become more like the Pharisee who says, you know, "I thank God You didn't make me like other people." And the very person whom Jesus condemns in that parable is the person who actually takes a praise psalm and distorts it by saying, "I praise You that I am such a great guy." And that's exactly the wrong – that's the definition of self-righteousness.

Erwin Lutzer

It is. And, of course, we know that God absolutely hates pride. And the longer I think we live with the gospel and live it out – I remember Dwight Pentecost – who used to teach at Dallas, who is now in heaven – saying the older he got there were two things that amazed him, and that was the depth of his sin and the wonder of God's grace. And I think the older we get, the more we see that clearly.

Darrell Bock

Yeah, there's a wonderful passage in Luke – this is when the woman anoints – the sinful woman anoints Jesus – in which it says, "The one who is forgiven much loves much, and the one who is forgiven little loves little."

And, of course, the point is the more you appreciate what the grace of God has done for you, the more you realize what it is that you don't bring to the table. And if you mistake what you bring to the table for what you bring to the table, the chances are you're not gonna love God as much as you should.

Erwin Lutzer

Oh, exactly. And you know what we bring to the table? I tell people that your contribution in salvation is your sin; everything else comes from the grace of God.

Darrell Bock

Mmm. Well, Erwin, I want to thank you for taking this time to walk us through some of the themes of your book, and above all for your pastoral ministry there – not just at Moody, but you've written numerous books; you've ministered nationally and internationally for some time, and it's much appreciated.

It's fun to kind of renew our friendship and our dialogue in this kind of public way, and I thank you for giving us some of your time and helping us think through some of these issues.

Erwin Lutzer

Thank you, Darrell.

Darrell Bock

Yeah. And we thank you for being a part of the table, and we hope you'll join us again soon.