451. Reckoning with Imperial History feat. Sathnam Sanghera

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6d ago 50:19

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In what ways is England’s imperial past connected to its present? What of that past is reflected in the schools and schoolwork of students? Are there ways to acknowledge and repair things from the past in a way that moves society forward?

Sathnam Sanghera is a journalist for The Times of London and the author of several books. His latest two are titled Empireland: How Imperialism Has Shaped Modern Britain and Empireworld: How British Imperialism Shaped the Globe.

Greg and Sathnam discuss Sanghera's unexpected transition to writing about history, the complexities of British imperial history, and its nuanced impact on the modern world. The conversation digs into topics such as the perception of British imperialism in modern education, the contradictions within British history, and the ongoing struggles with racism in the UK.

Sathnam also highlights the enduring influences of British rule in former colonies and the evolving discussions around reparations and historical reckoning.

*unSILOed Podcast is produced by University FM.*

Episode Quotes:

Nuance is a useful concept for history

07:29: I would say balance is not a very useful concept for history in general. Nuance is what you want to aim for. But the reason I think we've always struggled to talk about British Empire, except in this way of trying to balance the positives against the negatives, is because this is how empire was discussed at the time. In the 19th century, there are endless arguments about whether we should hold on to our empire, whether we were making money out of it overall, whether overall it was a good thing or a bad thing. And this continues to be the way we discuss empire. We continue trying to weigh the miles of railway we built in India against the millions of lives that were lost in the potato famine in Ireland. It's an absurd way of trying to understand history, because how do you balance railways against death? And how you might balance slavery against anti-slavery? And I guess my ultimate conclusion after five years of studying this is that you can't come down on any side.

On arguing for sophistication

45:15: As writers and historians, we always argue for sophistication. Politicians will always try to simplify things.

Are people more comfortable with nuance journalism than they are with history?

09:22: Social media is now just setting people up against each other all the time. And politics is becoming highly polarized. Everything is turning into a football match. Where you have your side, and the other side is evil, right? And history is just as it makes it. Trying to understand imperial history through that prism, it's like saying, I want to understand the history of the climate, but I'm only going to study the sunshine, or I'm only going to study the rain. It's not going to give you a very sophisticated sense of the climate, is it? You want to study the weather in between. And that is the same is true for history.

On the phenomenon of indentured servitude

33:52: One of the main reasons, you see, Indians, wherever you go in the world, is because the British, after they abolished slavery, realized they needed workers, and they didn't seem willing to incentivize the formerly enslaved to do the work. So they decided to send one million Indians around the world to places like Mauritius, Trinidad, Jamaica, and Guyana to do the work that the enslaved formerly did. And often they were treated as badly as the enslaved. Not quite as badly, but pretty badly. But this led to all sorts of phenomena... And so, all these phenomena exist around the world, and the way in which the British Empire changed the demographics of the planet. I don't think we think about that enough.

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