093- Writer/Producer Jack Burditt

What The Hell Is Michael Jamin Talking About?

This week, Emmy Winning Writer/Producer Jack Burditt (Modern Family, 30 Rock, Frasier and many, many more) discusses his career path, joining a show that is already established and working on shows with green screens.

Show Notes

Jack Burditt on IMDB: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0120994/

Jack Burditt on Twitter: https://twitter.com/jackburditt

Michael's Online Screenwriting Course - https://michaeljamin.com/course

Free Screenwriting Lesson - https://michaeljamin.com/free

Join My Watchlist - https://michaeljamin.com/watchlist

Autogenerated Transcript

Jack Burditt:

I don't know. There was something about it that I'm like, oh, this is a show I always wanted to write. This is, and it was fun. And it was like we could go bonkers at times,

Michael Jamin:

But you'd go bonkers. But then you'd ground it somehow.

Jack Burditt:

Yes, yes. You always wanted to try to ground it somewhere in there. And even if you're leading up to a bonker scene, you wanted something setting up like this is the reason why this mayhem is going to happen.

Michael Jamin:

You're listening to Screenwriters Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin.

Hey everyone, it's Michael Jamin. Welcome back to Screenwriters. Need to hear this. Another great guest. Hats off to me because my next guest is a friend from, I've known him for many, many years and I honestly have to say this guy's writing credits our outstanding, he's, and he's, he's going to be embarrassed when I say this, but Jack, I'm, I'm here with Jack Birded and he's literally one of the most sought after comedy writers in Hollywood. And Jack, before you say a word, let me tell you everyone what you've written on this could take a long time. You got a lot of credits, so, well, most recently, he's the creator intro runner of the Santa Clauss, the Tim Allen show on Disney Plus. Where he, Santa Claus. I'm going to, I'm just going to skip many of your credits. You have too many. I'm just going to do some of what I think of my, your highlights.

Modern family. He run a Mount Modern family for many years. Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt 30 Rock, which we're definitely going to talk about. That is literally one of my favorite shows of all time. And I want to know more about that Last Man Standing, which he created new adventures of old Christine. I'm with her watching Ellie, and I know I said that wrong. Watching Ellie Inside Schwartz created, he co-created Dag Just Shoot Me, which we worked on together, Inc. Frazier. Mad about you. What else did I, I'm sure, oh, the Mindy Project did I said that right? The Mindy Project. That's how you said that show.

Jack Burditt:

Yes, yes.

Michael Jamin:

I'm unfamiliar with her. And then most importantly, the one that everyone knows you for. Father Doubting Mysteries.

Jack Burditt:

Jack. Well,

Michael Jamin:

Thank you so much. Damn, Jack, the credits on. You are nuts. We were talking yesterday, we were picketing yesterday and I was like, Jack, come on. You got to be on it. My podcast. And you were kind enough to do this. I got a lot of questions for you, Jack. I want to talk about 30 Rock, most of all, because I had a lot of questions while we were drunk on a three hour hike around the Disney lot. But I was like, let's just save it for the podcast. Tell what was 30 Rock, because I know obviously you're LA and they flew you out because that was a New York show. So you lived out New York.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah, I mean, they didn't fly me out. I flew myself out. Yeah, okay. That's the first thing. Okay. They don't put you up, they don't like No, no, it, yeah, no, it was,

Michael Jamin:

But wait a minute. Do they give you any allowance for rent or is that No, you're just paying for it out of your salary. They

Jack Burditt:

Give you a moving fee, I guess, and it's not much. And it's a one-time thing, so there's no, it's point.

Michael Jamin:

And then, so were you living in Manhattan then?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was a big decision. I mean, that came about, I was, remember, I was actually thinking of a career move at that point. What

Michael Jamin:

Was the move

Jack Burditt:

To go to dramas? I don't know. A lot of sitcoms. I was like, eh, I don't know. Maybe I want to try something new. But I was supervising a pilot that season, a comedy pilot. And I remember just reading a lot of the drama pilots and go, oh, this might be interesting. And even at that time, I met on Friday Night Lights, which was going to be starting up and was really interest in that show because I thought, oh, this is a great pilot.

Michael Jamin:

But you had to put together a bunch of different drama specs, right, to do that. Yeah. Yeah.

Jack Burditt:

Okay. So I did that, and then I just read in the pack. There were some sitcoms in there too, and it was the Untitled Tina Faye project. And I read that and I'm like, oh shit, I want to be on this show.

Michael Jamin:

Mean it was great. But then had, okay, so then your agent submitted you and then what happened?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah, and he, not for a long time, could not give me a meeting with Tina. She wanted the people. She wanted, and she's going to do with Robert Carlock. And I didn't know him either. And my agent really spent a lot of time just saying, well, would you meet with this guy? And she read a spec of mine that she just didn't care about that much, but he talked her to a meeting with me. So at some point I got a call, it was a Friday. They're like, can you go to New York to meet with T? And I'm like, yeah. And they said, can you get, there's a plane leaving in three hours, can you get on that? And I said, sure. So I went out, flew out on a Friday night, got there Saturday, met with her Saturday afternoon. She was still doing, she's still the head writer on S N L.

Right. She was still doing weekend update. And it was a show day at S N L. I went to her office there. And I just remember there was a lot of chaos going on. And then Gore's supposed to be doing a couple bits in the episode, but they didn't know at that point whether he was going to show up or not. And I was just, wow, curious. I go, well, what happens if you, he doesn't show up? She goes, yeah, you just deal with it. And I thought, she's so calm. I go, I want to work for her so bad.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. That becomes basically an episode for 30 Rocky. That's what happens.

Jack Burditt:

I mean,

Michael Jamin:

So, alright. I'm just curious about the logistics. So you rent a place in Manhattan and then you shot it, was it in Queens? In Astoria, I imagine? No, you shot in

Jack Burditt:

30. Yeah. Yeah. Silver Cup. So no, we shot it at Silver Cup in Long Island City, Queens. We would certainly shoot at 30 Rocket Times. But no, our offices, our main set was across the river.

Michael Jamin:

And then how did it work? How was she able to be in the writer's room and be on set? So how did she do that?

Jack Burditt:

It was tough. Mean, there was a lot of her shooting during the day, and then some of us going to her apartment at night and riding at night

Michael Jamin:

Afterwards. So your hours must have been really tough.

Jack Burditt:

They were long hours. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

What was the day, typical day on that show? I mean,

Jack Burditt:

I don't know mean it was always long. Always. I felt like it was always at least 12 hour days. But I mean, there were times, and we've been in the doing sitcoms or stuff. I mean, there were times we saw the sun come up.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, I know. It is

Jack Burditt:

The worst feeling in the world.

Michael Jamin:

It is the worst feeling. But that show, this was my complaint with 30 Rock. If you laughed out loud, you'd miss the next joke. It was that funny that I was like, I'd almost watch it in silence because like, I don't want to miss it. It was so funny that you couldn't laugh because you'd miss the next big joke, which was right around the corner. It was nuts. That show, I mean, so how was that different for you writing in that show? Was there different and it was a, I don't know, what was the secret? That was a, I just love that show. It was hilarious.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. I mean, I don't know. There was something about it that I'm like, oh, this is a show. I always wanted to write this. And it was fun. And it was like, we could go bonkers at times,

Michael Jamin:

But you'd go bonkers. But then you'd ground it somehow.

Jack Burditt:

Yes, yes. You always wanted to try to ground it somewhere in there. And even if you're leading up to a bonker scene, you wanted something setting up, this is the reason why this mayhem is going to happen, or, yeah. Right. But I feel like on that show, we've been in rooms before and you pitch something really funny and everybody's pitching on top of it, and then the showrunner's like, yeah, but we can't do that. And

Michael Jamin:

On that show it was like, we can that. So I mean, is that right? I mean, was there pretty

Jack Burditt:

Much, yeah, quite often I'm things that I knew if I'd pitch on other shows, it would've been like a, yeah, that's really good. We're not doing that. Right. I thought, oh, it's got a shot here.

Michael Jamin:

But the thing is, I don't remember. I don't really remember. I don't remember the Beg, the early episodes. It couldn't have started out that broad. It couldn't have. Right. Because no one would've approved that. But no network is going to say you'd be this crazy red out of the gate. Right?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it helped to have the power of Lor. Michaels behind it. He was an EP on it. But yeah, I, what the show became was a bit different from what it started, and there became more frenetic and a little bit more crazy as it went along. But I mean, even in that first season, I mean episode, I don't even know, maybe it was episode nine. By episode nine, we had Paul Rubins just playing this crazy character, and it was the first timer like, oh, maybe this is what the show can be.

Michael Jamin:

Oh, was really, is that what it was? Wait, the one time in Hits, and you're

Jack Burditt:

Like, yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So I, I'm pretty sure you, well, you were in episode runs, weren't you? Weren't you in it once? I

Jack Burditt:

Was in a few, yes.

Michael Jamin:

Yes, a few. And you T

Jack Burditt:

Tina liked to, I think Tina and Robert Carlock. I don't like being on film, which is why they

Michael Jamin:

Put you in

Jack Burditt:

It. I think it was, but I also think it was partially, I did a lot of set duty. I was on set a lot during that run. And I think there's also the feeling of you put him in front of the camera so he knows what every actor's going through. And maybe it is helpful because in front of camera can be terrifying.

Michael Jamin:

Sure. But tell me, okay, so why were you on set most of the time? Why did they choose

Jack Burditt:

You? A lot the time. I mean it, I felt like in the early years, they just had, there were a few of us, there was me, they, John Regie, Kay Cannon, I don't know. There was a trust in some of us that they're like, you can sit on set. If something comes up, you can be there. Help rewrite

Michael Jamin:

It. Because Tina was there all the time. Right?

Jack Burditt:

A lot of the time. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And so she would say, Hey, can you take on another whack at this terrible scene? And then you'd got to just fix it on the set.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

So far, when we were doing Marin, I think I've told this before, but we did a scene in an anger management. Mark was in anger management. So they had a big circle where all of the other people in anger management. And so Mark yells me, he goes, jam and get in here. He wanted to be an extra in the scene. So I'm like, all right. He thought it'd be funny. So I'm sitting in the anger management scene, and then the director all cut, and then I get up and I go to the director, give him notes and all the extras. This guy is going to get fired. What the hell is he doing? Why is he talking to the director like that?

Jack Burditt:

That's hilarious. Do you remember the time on Just Shoot Me, were Steve was going to put me in a scene in the elevator and ask what he said? Yeah. Or I think somebody else had picked, maybe it should be Bird in the Elevator when George Siegel gets in there and Steve's like, yeah, fine, that seems good. But then the next day he's like, you know what Bird, it can't be in the elevator. This building is too nice of a building. And he basically going up too much of a dirt bag to be in

Michael Jamin:

That's, oh my God, we on, oh my. I dunno if I can say which. What? I was on a show, it was a network show, and we gave the lead character the last name. Well, you must know her. Linda ett. You know Linda, right? Yeah, yeah,

Jack Burditt:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. So the network didn't realize, they didn't know her name, I guess, and they didn't like the lead being named Ti, they didn't like that name on her. She's like, what my name. But I remember we played, just Shoot Me at Ja, shoot me. We played, and it was best on pre-production. We played basketball. And then I would guard you because you were probably 35. I was like, I get the old, give me the old man. You were 35. Oh God. So now we were talking about this as well yesterday. You're running the Santa Clauss on Disney, and we were mentioning how, I hope you're comfortable talking about this, but the stress that comes with running a show versus being a Coex exec. And I wanted to get your take on, you feel what the differences are for you. What are the stresses for you when you're running a show?

Jack Burditt:

I mean, I guess the biggest stress of all is if something's not working, it's on you.

Michael Jamin:

It's on you. It's

Jack Burditt:

Just on you. I, and I just don't sleep. And it's like I, I'm like, I'm up at three in the morning going, Jesus, we don't figure this out. There's not going to be a script. There's not going to be. And it's just so many, I mean, how it is is a thousand questions a day, a thousand emails, texts, everything like that. And you just, you're overwhelmed. And I mean, what I like doing most is writing.

Michael Jamin:

But isn't that the hardest? I always say that's the hardest part of the job is the writing part, right?

Jack Burditt:

It's really hard, but it's also what I like the most. I love writing.

Michael Jamin:

But when they come to you with a wardrobe problem, aren't you just like, eh, put 'em on whatever. I don't really care.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. In fact, every time I have run a show, always go to the head of wardrobe and I'm like, I don't know anything about it. Yeah. You see, the way I dress, I should never ever have a note on wardrobe. So I will always defer to you. And yet, I always wind up having a couple things like, no, this has got to be like this.

Michael Jamin:

I wonder if you feel this way as well. When I'm in a production meeting and everyone has a million questions and I'm like, oh, I got so much work to do. Can we get this over with? I got to go back and write. To me, that's not even the work. That's always like, this is nonsense I have to deal with. I got the writing is the hard part.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. Yeah. I will say though, it, it's going to, production meetings is good because I think at first when you start writing, you're just like, I'll write anything. And then the production meeting,

Michael Jamin:

They

Jack Burditt:

Say, no, clarifies what a jackass most production thinks you are for writing a simple line is going to cause so many problems and so much anxiety for prop people and wardrobe and special effects and stunts and everything like that.

Michael Jamin:

What about casting? Do you enjoy that part?

Jack Burditt:

No, I mean, right. It's tough. I mean, I know that a lot of Cassie now is done on tape, and I know that's its own problem. I know a lot of actors hate that, but I just feel so bad and being in the room with actors and you know, have 15 people coming in for a role and you're like, I could give this to 13 of them, anybody's going to be really good, so I'm going to pick this person. But a bunch of people who easily could have this job will not get it. I hate being in that position.

Michael Jamin:

So that's what it is. It's about you not wanting to hurt people that you don't, the part you don't

Jack Burditt:

Like. Yes. Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Interesting.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah, because I'm, there's so many good people out there, and there's so few jobs,

Michael Jamin:

Right? Yeah. What do you have, what's your interaction, I guess? What's your, yeah, what do you tell new actors to, how do you make 'em feel good? And do you have advice for them? I guess

Jack Burditt:

It's funny because sometimes it's just like, they come in and what was in my head, they just nail it. And I'm like, that's great. But there's other times where actors will come in and do something that's completely different and really surprise me. And I go, alright, let's do it that way. And then I will wind up rewriting the role for them. Because Do you

Michael Jamin:

Tell that?

Jack Burditt:

I have told them that. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Well, how do, what do they feel about that? They must be very flattered.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

It's so interesting because you've been doing it so long, it's kind of interesting. I don't really talk about this, but you've been doing it so long, it's really not about, at this point, it's not about always getting what's out of your head casting that you're like, okay, yeah, I'll do some, I'll just surprise me, do something different. It's no longer about your ego at this point. It's about just what's interesting, right?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And when I say I hate Cassian, it's not like I hate, I'm rooting for everyone that walks through the door. I want everyone to be great, and that's it. Not because I know there's certain writers who just have a sour feeling about all actors or whatever. It's like, it's not that at all. In my case,

Michael Jamin:

Although, but now, because it's like, how much do you do when you're watching on tape? How much will you give them? If they have the three minute audition, how long will you watch the whole thing?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah, I do. I do.

Michael Jamin:

That's good of you. Yeah. That's really good of you. Because you know, might be reading 10 actors.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah, I know. But I just feel like I owe it to them.

Michael Jamin:

That's really good of you, especially at the end of the day when you're tired or you have more things to

Jack Burditt:

Do. Yeah, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

And then on set, what else? Exactly. Let's say, I know we're getting back to the 30 Rock, but what are you looking at when you're on set? Or is it just all script? It's all about the words.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. Mostly. I'm not one of those. Very rarely will I go in and go, this is blocked wrong, or anything like that. Or the act. Yeah, it's mostly about the words,

Michael Jamin:

Really. Yeah. So it's not even about making sure you have the right coverage. You just whatever you, you'll trust that to the director or the

Jack Burditt:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

The dp. Yes.

Jack Burditt:

I mean, yeah, I'll call that out every once in a while. Like I don't think we, I got this reaction. I think the actor gave us the reaction. I don't think we have it

Michael Jamin:

On camera. Yeah, yeah. Right. And I'm sure you learned a lot just from being in post, right? Yes.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. I know. It's one of the reasons we're running circles around Disney and other studios now, picketing, one of the big issues is younger writers aren't getting a chance to either be on set or do post. And I mean, if you're writing tell, you

Michael Jamin:

Have to know all this. You

Jack Burditt:

Got to know all of it.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, they don't, it's so odd because I think they're just being shortsighted it, it's going to be fine five or 10 years. But after that, when the older writers were done, these younger writers, they're not going to have this studio system. They, they created this thing that works, this Hollywood machine that really works well. And I feel like they're just trying to save a couple of bucks, but they're going to destroy it 10 or 15 years from now. What are you doing?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

Hollywood has this monopoly that they're just kind of ruining. I don't know why they'd want to do that.

Jack Burditt:

Didn't your writing completely change after you started doing Post the way you would write a script?

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, it would. Well, it, not only that, it changed the way we would shoot it. We were hired on a job just because Steve and I knew how to look at the cameras we were hired on for pre-production, but they kept us through production because we knew what to do, how to watch the cameras, which the other people didn't know how to do. But yeah. But now you were also mentioning your post-production is so long. This is something I know very little about. Special effects. What is that whole process on with the show you're on now?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah.

Michael Jamin:

What do I need to know? If I were to say, kill you and take your jump,

Jack Burditt:

What you need to know is

Michael Jamin:

Don't do it. Don't take the jump.

Jack Burditt:

All the effects is so much more expensive than you can ever imagine.

Michael Jamin:

Well, yeah. So is a lot of green screen, is it rotoscope? What is this?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah, yeah, it's green screen. Yeah, I

Michael Jamin:

So when you're on set, how do you know if they're doing it right? I know. I never know. I don't.

Jack Burditt:

No, you got to trust it, I guess

Michael Jamin:

At the

Jack Burditt:

Time. You got to be like, I hope. Yeah, we were, and we shot stuff this year that I was just like, so those mountains we see in the background, because this is supposed to be Chicago we're in, and not Santa Clarita, those mountains will be gone. I don't know if there's no money in the budget, suddenly Chicago's going to have a mountains,

Michael Jamin:

So they'll take all of, so it's all, yeah, even that, that's not even, okay, so it's not even

Jack Burditt:

That's green screen. It's right. It's like things to paint out, or they're dealing with a green horse head on set and you have person talking to it, and you have to trust that at some point, that's going to be a character talking to a reindeer and the reindeer's talking back.

Michael Jamin:

Right. And that, so you are overseeing that whole process. So in other words, if the map looks funny to you, you're like, nah, can you do it again? The map looks stupid, or

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. Yeah. You'll give

Michael Jamin:

Those kind of

Jack Burditt:

Notes. Yeah, yeah. Until you're told we have no more money and no more.

Michael Jamin:

It's like,

Jack Burditt:

Oh. And then you're like, oh, it looks fine.

Michael Jamin:

You know what though? But yeah, when we did Maryland, which is such a low budget show, if there was one shot, the cameras in front of the door at the door of a house and the door swings open, and for a fraction of a second, you can see the camera looking in the reflection of the camera in the door, but only if you're looking and only for a half a frame. And they said, oh, we'll just take that out. The post-production super supervisor says, Hey, we have some money, we'll take it out. I'm like, why bother? I didn't see it,

Jack Burditt:

But

Michael Jamin:

It was going to cost a lot of money. I was like, I don't, is this really matter to us? But they did. They removed it. I was amazed. It was like a $5,000. And it doesn't make the show better. It just doesn't make it worse, I guess, right?

Jack Burditt:

Yes.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. So interesting. What do you say, I don't know. What's it like with working with young writers now? What do you say to the young writers? Tell me,

Jack Burditt:

What do you say? I mean,

Michael Jamin:

What's it like working with young writers because you are still working in network? Big shows. I'm on mostly low budget shows where it's like three people complaining or whatever. I

Jack Burditt:

Mean, it's fun. Yeah, it's fun working with young writers. They're so

Michael Jamin:

Enthusiastic.

Jack Burditt:

They are very enthusiastic. And then look, I mean, on Santa Clauss in season one, I mean, our two staff writers came in and pitched this whole Santa Claus mythology to dive into, and it's really become a big part of the show. They

Michael Jamin:

Pitched it before they got hired, or when they got hired,

Jack Burditt:

When they got hired.

Michael Jamin:

So they came in on their own. They said, Hey, what about this? And that

Jack Burditt:

Sounds smart, and let's really dive into the mythology of Santa Claus and past Santa Clauses and Oh, wow. And it really kind of opened a lot of avenues and it made it interesting. And I honestly think it bought us, when we did it last year, it's supposed to be one time limited series, and it did really well. But I also think that storytelling that the staff writers brought in kind of helped get a second season to, that's interesting. Oh, there's other areas that dig, get we. It's not just about Tim Allen playing Scott Calvin as Santa Claus, and he got a family. But there's this entire world, and I don't know the mythology world that much. I watched some of these shows or whatever, but I never broken them down before. But these writers were just, a lot of the young writers, they're very much into that. And so

Michael Jamin:

I have noticed that too. When we work with young writers, they're very enthusiastic, very. And a lot of them come in, it's day one, and they got piles of ideas and the showrunner's, all right, and then what do we got? And they come up, they start pitching their ideas and they're like, whew, at least someone came prepared. Let's do their idea. Because the older writer's like, I don't really know. We'll have to bang our head up against the wall. But the young kids, they got ideas. Let's do those. Yeah, yeah. They're enthusiastic, but, and so I want to go through some of your credits here. You have so many interesting, I don't know. I guess, tell me how you, I guess let's start with this. How did you first break into the business?

Jack Burditt:

It was almost like, it should have been expected of me, but I kind of went away from it. So both my parents did this, right? I mean, originally from Cleveland, my dad was a greeting card writer, but then some of his friends, his greeting card friends started moving out to LA and working on variety shows and things like that. And at some point my dad, like midlife decides, yeah, I'm going to give that a try.

Michael Jamin:

Fuck all this sunshine greeting cards. This is some comedy. And when you say midlife, how old was he?

Jack Burditt:

He was in his forties

Michael Jamin:

And he broke in his forties.

Jack Burditt:

He broke in his forties, I guess it was a different time. Yeah. So we stayed in Cleveland while my dad came out and for a year tried to make it and then got on a show, a variety show, and he is like, all right, looks like I got a good job and

Michael Jamin:

Out. And what show was that though? Do you remember? It was a,

Jack Burditt:

Yes. So it was a show called Turn On, which is famous for being canceled. Even almost halfway through the airing of the first episode.

Michael Jamin:

At the first act, we got to get this thing off.

Jack Burditt:

There were so many calls to the network, which I, I'm trying to remember. Maybe A, B, C, maybe N B C.

Michael Jamin:

Why? Because there were so messy, there were so

Jack Burditt:

Many calls complaining about it. It was done by some of the same people that did laughing and it was like, let's take laughing, but speed it up even quicker and make faster jokes and go all and make it insane. So yeah, it had a 13 order, so that's why we moved. He moved the family out here and then boom, after one episode, he's out of work.

Michael Jamin:

Oh my God. It's hilarious. We, that's so funny, Steve. And we did a show once and we had a long, kind of a long contract. I go, what if we have to stay on this show? He goes, Steve's like this show's canceled up the act pretty soon as they air. And he was kind of right. Okay. So then after that show, what happened after the show was canceled to your dad? So

Jack Burditt:

Then thankfully a little bit after that, then he started writing on the Andy Williams show and which was done at N B C and Burbank. And we lived in an apartment a block from Burbank. And so kind of grew up around it. I grew up in Burbank, and then he did other variety shows. Sonny and Cher was the big one. He did, but he did a lot of things. You probably never heard of the Lola Ana show, the Hudson Brothers show. He did. But I guess the mid seventies he really started, he started realizing variety shows are going away.

Michael Jamin:

Well, there were a ton of them. There was Donny and Marie. I mean, it was the real

Jack Burditt:

Big deal. But he, I wanted to make the switch to sitcoms and he had a writing partner and they wrote a Jeffersons, they wrote on Jeffersons, they wrote all in the Family and Sanford and Son,

Michael Jamin:

All amazing shows.

Jack Burditt:

And then the guys who ran the Jeffersons started three, each company. And then that's what my dad and his partner did. They jumped ship and they went on this new show, threes company, which was just this massive, massive hit.

Michael Jamin:

But all those shows were massive. All of my favorite shows, I didn't know he did three's company. Oh my God.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. So I think he wound up writing probably more episodes of Three's company than anybody. I think So

Michael Jamin:

Did you go to set a lot? Did what was

Jack Burditt:

Growing? Yeah, and it was funny. So yeah, I was kind of fascinated by it. I got a kick out of it. I never thought of it as a career. I'm like, my brother and my sister are really smart. I'm kind of the dummy of the family.

And I always thought, oh, maybe they'll do something in there. My brother would make home movie. He is always making movies with those Super eight. But yeah, I just going, I thought it was fun to, I would go to Sonny and Cher, go to see those tapings, and then down the hall all in the family would be shooting and my dad would go, you want to go down to see Hall in the family? Yeah. I went down and just some dump, dump kid wandering around C B s television City. And then we'd go by and I'd watch Carol Burnett being filmed and amazing. And never occurred to me that this could be a career in any way.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know why your dad was doing it.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah, I don't know. I really, because like these are all smart, funny people doing it, I guess.

Michael Jamin:

And then when you went into the, weren't you in the military after? Did you not or was there somebody else? No. Oh, okay. Alright. So what? I was

Jack Burditt:

Not, my daughter went in the military, somebody

Michael Jamin:

Thinking, no, I know, but I thought you did. But I guess, or I didn't wait, but I

Jack Burditt:

Know. No, no, no. I, oh, I worked at Lockheed. I did. I mean, that

Michael Jamin:

Makes mean they make stuff in the

Jack Burditt:

Military's. I worked on missiles. So maybe

Michael Jamin:

What did you do in the missiles? What did you put gunpowder in it?

Jack Burditt:

I honestly, I don't think I'm allowed to say everything I did. Is that

Michael Jamin:

Right? You had security clearance?

Jack Burditt:

Probably shouldn't have said missiles. I can say missiles. It's been a long time. We know Lockheed, they made missiles, so Right.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. My college roommate, he was on Secret Service detail for many years. And when I ran him to at college reunion, I hadn't seen him many years and I was like, dude, I can't believe we're on Secret Service. How many of them are many are there on the Secret Service detail? And he goes, that's classified. I go, that's the answer I wanted. That's all I wanted. I don't care about the number, I want you to tell me it's classified. Okay. Alright. So then at what point after you decided you didn't want to make missiles anymore, did you get into comedy writing?

Jack Burditt:

So the one thing I did know I could do was write,

Michael Jamin:

How did you know?

Jack Burditt:

Just in high school, I mean, like I said, I'm kind of a dummy and I barely graduated from high school. And the only way I graduated from high school was I loaded up on any course that had writing in it. I can bss my way through this. So I knew that. Also knew I enjoyed writing. I would just write stuff all the time. And then I liked journalism a lot. And so after high school, did a little bit of college, but not really didn't. And I worked at Magic Mountain as the right operator. And

Michael Jamin:

Hey, it's Michael. If you like my videos and you want me to email them to you for free, join my watch list. Every Friday I send out my top three videos. These are for writers, actors, creative types. You can unsubscribe whenever you want. I'm not going to spam you and it's absolutely free. Just go to michael jamin.com/watchlist.

Jack Burditt:

Got yeah, started going out with another ride operator, and at some point she got pregnant and we're like, eh, let's get married. See how this goes. We're dumb teenagers. And we got married and we're still married today.

Michael Jamin:

But then did

Jack Burditt:

So because of that, because I had to be responsible. I can't continue working as a riot operator. Then I worked at Lockheed, and that's where I did the missiles thing. But my wife, her friend worked at the Daily News, Los Angeles Daily News, and she knew I was interested in journalism and she got me a job as they called 'em copy boys at the time. They're editorial assistants, basically a PA for newspapers. And back then stuff still came over. The wire wasn't computer and you'd rip the wire and get different people. So I was working there for a few months and still hustling, trying to pitch editors on, can I write something? And they're like, who is this dumb kid? But then, yeah, I met the entertainment editor and just started hanging around and he took a liking to me and I got an assignment to interview a band. And that was my first, it was my first writing gig, my first professional writing.

Michael Jamin:

What was the band?

Jack Burditt:

It was a country group called Alabama. Oh,

Michael Jamin:

Sure. But that's not sitcom, right? That's not narrative.

Jack Burditt:

No. And I was really happy working for newspapers. I really enjoyed it. But while I was working there, I was working with a couple other reporters who wanted to get into script writing, and they had heard at one point about my dad.

Michael Jamin:

They're like,

Jack Burditt:

Why aren't you doing this? Yeah. I'm like, he does it. And he does it really well. I don't guess that's the biggest part of it is my dad did it so well. I didn't want to be the guy who's trying to do the same thing and being bad at it. Interesting. And I think that was always a fear, but one of these reporters, he had been in special forces and he wanted to write action movies. So the three of us would sit there and write these spec action movies, scripts, we'd get drunk a lot too, and doing that. And we got an agent, not a very good agent, but we got an agent and nothing was happening with that. And at some point I was like, you know what? We should try tv. And the guy who was in the Special Forces, he's like, I don't like tv. I don't watch tv. And he really didn't. But I think I convinced, I think at one point we wrote a cheer speck and I, I wrote a lot and I mostly wrote specs on my own. I just liked writing. I mean, geez, I probably wrote, so wrote the cheers. You wrote a Roseanne. Wow. Probably a home improvement.

Michael Jamin:

But did you really know then how to write, how act breaks? Did you really, I, there's a difference between knowing how to writing and enjoying writing and knowing how to write.

Jack Burditt:

So I didn't know what I was doing. And so I didn't really go to my dad for advice. And by this point, my mom was also became a television writer. She was writing in one hours, and I did not bug them about it. And it was just idiotic. And I think there was an embarrassment on my part or I, I'm not sure exactly why. So interesting. But I got a job reading scripts picking up, so did it for Tristar, did it for Disney Channel, did it for a couple play as a script reader and doing notes. And that to me was the education really. And I started to really see what worked, what didn't,

Michael Jamin:

The scripts.

Jack Burditt:

And I remember I read a couple books and read articles on writing, and it was always, those first 10 pages better be great. And I did discover a world where so many people had a really strong first 10 pages, and then it all fell off a cliff. And I'm like, no, I think it's those middle of the scripts that if you can nail that, then you're in good shape.

Michael Jamin:

But when did you, because for me, it really took many years, even as after we became professional writers, before I really kind of understood how to write. Yeah, it was mostly relying on more senior writers to do the heavy

Jack Burditt:

Lifting. Right, right.

Michael Jamin:

Well, when did you figure that out?

Jack Burditt:

I mean, yeah, I don't know. Like I said, I did the script reading. I was still doing journalism, did the script reading on the side, and I think that really helped. Then I got a job at Disney as a script reader, and I was like full-time on the lot doing that. And then I was just around it and around people who talked about scripts and which is really, I would go to meetings that I should not have been in. I was in meetings with Michael Eisner and Jeffrey, and where they're talking about projects coming up and how to do this or do that. And I also didn't know my place. I would, I remember one point argue with Eisner, and then after the meeting, my boss said, you can never do that again.

Michael Jamin:

We did the show for him. This was a Michael Eisner show, and we would try to, he was a good boss, but we would try to convince him if he was stuck on something, there was no way you were going to change his mind ever. Not in a million years. And so it was his way. Okay. But for the most part, he let us do what we wanted, but once in a while he'd say, no, we're not going to do it my way. Well, you have the money. So

Jack Burditt:

There was one point, so there was a project, it was for the Disney Sunday movie, and Disney had signed these triplets, they're called Creole Creole triplets, and they're cute, I think 16 year olds. And Jeffrey Katzenberg wanted a show where, or a movie where on their 16th birthday, they discovered their witches. And so it was kind of charmed before Charmed. And I had been in those meetings where Kastenberg talked about it. So they hired a writer, and that writer, the first writer they got didn't really nail it. And then I had been in those meetings, I gave notes on it. They wanted me to give notes and say, this is what it should be. And then they wound up going with another writer, and she wasn't nailing it. And I gave notes and she did another pass. And it's like, I know this isn't what he wants. And so I did what you're not supposed to do. And over a weekend, I wrote, rewrote the first 30 pages of the script. And I went in Monday and I gave it to my boss, and I said, here's what I did. And she said, you can get fired for this.

Michael Jamin:

Why can't you get fired for that?

Jack Burditt:

Because I'm a reader. I'm not allowed to take a project and do my own pass on it. But

Michael Jamin:

Why not though? Because

Jack Burditt:

I don't know, there's

Michael Jamin:

Still her version and then there's your version.

Jack Burditt:

It is a rule. Or maybe they just wanted to fire me. I don't know. Okay.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah. I don't know how the rules were. Okay, so you did this and she said, you shouldn't do this.

Jack Burditt:

She goes, yeah. She goes, you can get fired for this. I go, I know, but could you read it? And later that day, she came into my office, she goes, this is really good. I want to pass it up. But once again, I passed it up, you might get fired. I went, okay. And it got passed up and Kastenberg said, have this guy write the script,

Michael Jamin:

Then fire him. And

Jack Burditt:

That was your, so that was my first

Michael Jamin:

Break,

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. Wow. And it never got made,

Michael Jamin:

Right?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah,

Michael Jamin:

Because things don't get made. That's how it

Jack Burditt:

Is. Things don't get made. But then it got me, I started rewriting some Disney Channel projects and a couple, yeah, it was all these things. Nothing ever got made. I remember I was hired to write the new Mickey Mouse Club and then suddenly lost the job. And I still don't know what happened. I was you. And they're like, nah, yeah, no, you're not going to do it after all. Or that was, wow. The one with Ryan Gosling and Britney Spears and

Michael Jamin:

Oh my God, wow. Launched them and could've launched your career.

Jack Burditt:

I know I could be hanging out with all of 'em now. It'd be so much fun. So I was doing that, still working newspapers at times, still doing some script reading, the whole script reading career too. I was like always liked looking for things. And I think the only success story I ever had was I found an article in American Heritage Magazine about a newsboy strike in the 19 early 19 hundreds against Pulitzer and Hearst and I passed along because Disney was always looking for things for kids that kids could be in. And I said, Hey, I think this might be a movie. I never pitched it as a musical or anything. I thought it was a straight ahead thing, but it was like Newsies

Michael Jamin:

And they, right, that became that. But you didn't have, so just whatever your job was to come up with ideas or you found an idea, you pitched it, or you put up the ladder, but you didn't get any credit. You don't get dirt. No, no. It was just, that sucks.

Jack Burditt:

And that's it. But yeah, also, I made money reading scripts for years, and that was the only thing that ever,

Michael Jamin:

Yeah, but it wasn't, I mean, you were raking it in as a script reader,

Jack Burditt:

Right? No, no. Right. No, no. It was mostly, it was actually a tough job for the little money. But like I said, I think that's where I learned everything. So that was helpful. And then I was still kind of kicking around, picking up little projects where I could and still work in newspapers. And I covered the riots in 92, the LA riots, and was so shook up by it. And so I really thought it was going to die up there. Everything was terrifying. And at this point, I got four kids. I'm, none of them will ever be able to go to college or anything, just scraping by. And I was like, I really need to write a great spec and try to get into sitcoms. It was finally, then I'm like, I'm really going to try this. And I wrote a Seinfeld spec that got wound up getting me with contacts I'd made Wound up getting me a really good agent. And within a few months I was on mad about you on the staff

Michael Jamin:

That was. And how many years were you on Mad About You

Jack Burditt:

Two? I did two Years On Mad About You.

Michael Jamin:

That was a really good show. And then Frazier, of course. And then, and most also, well, not most recently, but pretty recently, modern Family. The thing that strikes me about Modern Family is everyone in that room, I imagine it was a showrunner, potential showrunner had run shows. It's

Jack Burditt:

Crazy.

Michael Jamin:

It was really a talented room.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. I mean, yes, it was. I like being on a show early on and really being able to put whatever fingerprints I can on it and direction and take character. Oh, let's do that. I like being at the creation of something. But there was something really nice about coming into the Modern family at the end, and I only worked on the last three seasons of that show. And just being no stress, no pressure. It's just, I'll tell some of my weird family stories and maybe they'll go in the episodes and

Michael Jamin:

Because it must be nice knowing that anyone in that room is capable. It's okay if you're having an off day, someone else would be fine. You're in good hands no matter who's talking.

Jack Burditt:

It was an amazing, amazing room.

Michael Jamin:

It's unusual.

Jack Burditt:

Or rooms because

Michael Jamin:

There's multiple rooms. And did you go back and forth, because obviously Steve ran Run Room and Chris together, but did you jump back and forth, or were you in someone's room most of the time?

Jack Burditt:

I think the first season I was there, I was mostly in Steve's the second season. It was about half and half in the third season that I was mostly,

Michael Jamin:

Do you know why,

Jack Burditt:

Chris?

Michael Jamin:

I would be like, wait, does he not like me? And then if I got into that room, wait a minute, he doesn't like me anymore. I would be paranoid no matter what room

Jack Burditt:

I was in. Yeah, right.

Michael Jamin:

But it was just they wanted to mix it up or what?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. I mean, yeah, that first year, whatever room you started in, you were kind of there. And when I say first year, my first year, it was year nine of the show, and then there was an concerted effort. The writer said, you know what? That got too weird last year. Let's always keep mixing it up.

Michael Jamin:

Okay.

Jack Burditt:

And so season 10, we really, everybody I think did about half and half.

Michael Jamin:

You can answer this now, but did you, before you got there, did you watch every single episode or no?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah, so I had watched a show a pretty much every week, I think the first three seasons and then what happened in life. And so when I knew I was going to go on the show, I got episodes four through eight, and I just watched them all, which is a horrible way to do it. Why? Because I just bing because nothing lands. Oh. Because then I found myself pitching things and they're like, we already did that. And I'm like, really? And then they would tell me the story. I'm like, oh yeah, I saw that.

Michael Jamin:

Was that the one I slept through? Is that,

Jack Burditt:

And I felt like, I think I waited too late, like, oh, I'm going to start there next week. I got to binge every episode.

Michael Jamin:

Wow. And then of course, yeah, you created Last Man Standing. Now you working with Tim Allen again, and yeah, I don't know. What do you see? What does the future look like? I don't know. How has it changed for you? What's your perception? What's going on with the future of writing?

Jack Burditt:

Future of writing? I mean, make me

Michael Jamin:

Feel good.

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. I makes me feel good. Yeah. I decide I have to stop, have to censor myself on the picket line because yeah, I message, look, it's rough. I think what we talked about earlier, young writers are not learning the skills to run a show or whatever. And it's really, I think that has to change, I think for the sake of the business. But I don't know mean for the future tough. I hope we've hit the low point right now and that things get a little bit better. But the business is broken in a way too. And I think business has to figure itself out. And as much as writers got to figure out what their place is in the business, but I keep hearing not all these streamers will exist in a couple years. Right? And I'm like, what does that mean though, too? And our network's dead or not? Or I don't know any of this. I it's, and I've never felt like I don't have a handle on the business, but right now, I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

It's interesting. We sold a pilot to, I don't want to say which one, we, to a streamer, this is, I don't know, a year or so ago. And then we turned it in and it just sat on someone's desk for probably close to a year before they finally said, it's dead. It took 'em that long to say. Yeah. And then I think what happened was, usually you find out in a couple of weeks or whatever, but I think what happened was they couldn't decide if the streamer was dead or not. It wasn't really about their show. Oh, it was about the future of the streamer. I think that's what they're thinking about. It's like, are we really going to do this? Why are we in business? So I don't know.

Jack Burditt:

I can't believe Netflix is thinking that way, but

Michael Jamin:

Between me and you, you'll hear it here first. You heard it here first,

Jack Burditt:

But

Michael Jamin:

You know what though, Jack, you are like us. I said this to Andy Gordon because, and Andy obviously, he just really enjoys writing. And you're the same way. I feel like you're just like, Andy will write and whatever. I don't really care. I'll just write something. As long as I'm writing, I do it the same way. Yeah,

Jack Burditt:

It, I mean, yeah, I'm always just writing things, just I do enjoy it. And Andy, you're right. Andy is another person I know, just loves it. Loves, yeah. Andy not only loves writing so much, loves everything about the business.

Michael Jamin:

He does. He does.

Jack Burditt:

And it's infectious being around him. Yeah. How much he loves it. He

Michael Jamin:

Loves it. He'll take pictures. We did a show, did show in the scrim in the back, the background on stage was you could see his house. It was a Hollywood scrim, and you could see his house in that hill. And he was so excited to see his house in the scrim. Yes. That's awesome. Because he always walks around with a camera. He captures every moment. So exciting to him.

Jack Burditt:

He's also just one of the funniest writers. That's hilarious. And just shoot me when you're, I'll say being in that room, that was such a great room. And I also just remember, I do love, right? And I, I'll work harder than everybody. I also feel like I'm not as funny as in that room. I'm like, I know I'm not as funny as Andy or Danny or you.

Michael Jamin:

I don't put that

Jack Burditt:

Jack. No, no. Absolutely. 100% I, I'd be in that room and I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to out. Funny. These guys maybe work. And I did have a nice reputation. The best thing I've had is that I turn in great first drafts. You do. And that always my thing. It's like I don't eat or sleep when I'm working on a draft. And I just, because out of fear, I got to be as good as everybody else who's just so naturally funny. I don't know.

Michael Jamin:

And

Jack Burditt:

I would just grind and grind and grind. And even when we're in a room and going down a road and everybody's pitching really funny things, I'm like, I'm not going to be able to join in and out, pitch them. So my whole strategy was always, is there another way to go with this story?

Michael Jamin:

How funny. And

Jack Burditt:

So sometimes I would just, sometimes I couldn't figure it out and I would just be a quiet in the corner. Other times it'd be like, yeah, that's great. What if we did that? And I felt like that was, sometimes my skill is like,

Michael Jamin:

But even, but wait. But if that, well, first way was getting traction. If the first idea was getting traction, you wouldn't derail it with a pitch that said, what about that? I

Jack Burditt:

Wouldn't, no. But I would like, no, not saying send the whole story, but another way to wrap up that scene or another way to try to come up with just something if it's heading some to surprise people and Yeah, this is funny. This is funny. It's going this way, this way. Oh, that happens.

Michael Jamin:

I don't know. What season just showed me was we were in one of the bungalows, I don't know, whatever it was. I have a clear, remember of you coming out of your office, you are off on draft on script, and you come and you were just exhausted. And it was just like, oh man. Poor Jack is on script. Yeah, you were really in it, man. You were when you're on script. Yeah, I remember that really well. You were suffering and you always turn in terrific drafts. I don't know what you're talking about, because it was always funny on page. And the most important thing is it funny on, and I don't even know how you did it, because when ER and I worked together, we know it's funny because the other person's laughing, but I always felt like, how do you know it? Because how do you know? I don't know how you did it alone. I really don't. Like how do you know it was going to be funny when you turned it in?

Jack Burditt:

Yeah. I mean, always felt like though there, it felt like almost every draft I turn in, there was always one or two jokes where people go, I don't get this. And I'd be like, I'd start to defend it and then realize like, yeah, no, it doesn't make sense.

Michael Jamin:

Don't get it either. I thought I was going to pull a wool over your eyes, but

Jack Burditt:

Do you

Michael Jamin:

Keep some kind of notebook now when you have ideas or what do you do?

Jack Burditt:

No, I used to carry a notebook everywhere I went. Really? I don't anymore. And I don't know. At some point I'm like, eh, if I don't remember it, it wasn't that good to begin with. But I know there's a couple things I've forgotten. I'm like, I know. That was good. I can't remember what that was

Michael Jamin:

Exactly. What Siebert and I say when we're on Tacoma fd, because we don't take a lot of notes. And there always our feelings. Well, if you don't remember, it was probably no good. No, but it was good. I dunno, maybe I should write it down, I guess. Oh, we should feel like you can come with something else. It's like it's not the end of the world. You come up with something, a better joke or whatever. Right. Anyway, that's so funny. Well, Jack, I want to thank you so much. This is an interesting talk. I really enjoyed this. I definitely enjoy getting your perspective on all of this, damn, honestly. And I have to, I'll say one last thing before I let you leave. You were always very support. I was a younger writer on just Shoot me. And you were very supportive of me. And I remember you sticking up for me one day and I really appreciate that. I don't remember what the details, but I said something, it was a joke. We were pitching on something. It was probably 10 o'clock at night. I was by by exhaust. And I pitched something that was kind of incoherent and

Someone started making fun of me, which you're supposed to do in the writer's room. You're supposed to make fun of the other person. But you came to my defense, you're like, no, this is his process. This is how he comes up with stuff. Leave him alone. And I always remembered that and little things like that. It's important. Oh,

Jack Burditt:

Well, it

Michael Jamin:

Really meant a lot. Really meant a lot to me.

Jack Burditt:

No, I liked your process too, because it was all out loud and you would try to, that's the

Michael Jamin:

Bad part.

Jack Burditt:

No, but it was interesting to me like, oh, I feel like it's what happens in a music studio, and I'm trying to figure out the thing. Yes, most people I think would keep it, try to figure it out in their head. But I also felt like with your process, because trying to get it right, you would throw something out and then work it and work it. But I also felt like there were times where you throw something out and you started working it, but then somebody else would pick up on it and I'm like, oh, maybe. To me it was like I always kept it inside until I felt like was I was 100% cooked and I probably shouldn't have at times. At times I'm like, I should have thrown something out that was half cooked and maybe gotten some help.

Michael Jamin:

But that's the thing. And I feel like I should have, I have not say everything out loud. That also can be a burden. When you're just spewing on stuff that's not ready to be heard, then everyone's shut up. So I can think, but how I think it's like whatever you're doing, you're always, am I doing it right? Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Whatever you're doing. I always feel like I'm probably doing it the wrong way. Someone else is doing it better.

Jack Burditt:

Right. Well, and that's one, and this, I guess would be the advice for younger writers if they ever happen to get into a room too. Yeah. It's just one thing I learned very late in life on this is every writer in that room is terrified that they're failing. Even the veterans, even ones have been doing it a long time, they're just like, oh shit. Oh man, if I don't, I got to get their, everybody is in their own heads, but do you

Michael Jamin:

Still feel that though? I mean, do you feel like other veteran writers that you currently work with or work with in the recent past feel that way still?

Jack Burditt:

I think the really good ones feel that

Michael Jamin:

Way. Really?

Jack Burditt:

Yes.

Michael Jamin:

They feel like they're, they're stru. This is all garbage. It's all gone downhill. Yeah. Really. The good ones interesting. I'll have to get names from you, but I certainly feel like whenever we start a script, I'm like, ah, crap. You know what I really feel, I felt like, and I remember on Just Shoot Me Feeling This, every time you write a story, you break someone. We would break a story in the room and I always felt like, well, that's it. There's no more stories. That's it. How could there be more? It took us how took a week to figure out this one. Yes,

Jack Burditt:

Yes. Yeah. I know. It was all, yes. Especially those times where it really took a long time.

Michael Jamin:

Yeah.

Jack Burditt:

How did that take so much? We're we're done. Yeah, we, we've explored these characters too much and now,

Michael Jamin:

But you must've felt that way in Modern Family though, when you've done season nine,

Jack Burditt:

Right? I mean, yeah.

Michael Jamin:

You've done everything. I mean, I know in Simpsons they say, yeah, but we've only done it three times. Right.

Jack Burditt:

So we can still do it was this week. One more time out of it,

Michael Jamin:

But that shows 30 years old or whatever.

Jack Burditt:

God. But it's incredible.

Michael Jamin:

Alright, well Jack, thank you again so much. Yeah, it really was such a pleasure. This is a good talk. Alright everyone, until next week, keep tuned. Keep writing is what I all, I always say. Alright. Thanks again, Jack.

Phil Hudson:

This has been an episode of Screenwriters. Need to Hear This with Michael Jamin and Phil Hudson. If you're interested in learning more about writing, make sure you register for Michael's monthly webinar @michaeljamin.com/webinar. If you found this podcast helpful, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a five star review on iTunes. For free screenwriting tips, follow Michael Jamin on social media @ MichaelJaminWriter. You can follow Phil Hudson on social media @PhilaHudson. This podcast was produced by Phil Hudson. It was edited by Dallas Crane Music by Ken Joseph. Until next time, keep writing.

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