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Fitness Society Relationship Mental Health Anne Blythe, M.Ed Anne Blythe Emotional Abuse Sexuality

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This Is Woman's Work with Nicole Kalil

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Together, we're redefining what it means, looks and feels like, to be doing "woman's work" in the world today. With confidence and the occasional rant. From boardrooms to studios, kitchens to coding dens, we explore the multifaceted experiences of today's woman, confirming that the new definition of "woman's work" is whatever feels authentic, true, and right for you. We're shedding expectations, setting aside the "shoulds", giving our finger to the "supposed tos". We're torching the old playbook and writing our own rules. Who runs the world? You decide. Learn more at nicolekalil.com

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No woman wants to face the horror of her husband’s betrayal. Or have to recover from the emotional, physical & financial trauma and never-ending consequences.
But these courageous women DID. And we’ll walk with you, so YOU can too.
If you’re experiencing pain, chaos, and isolation due to your husband’s lying, anger, gaslighting, manipulation, infidelity, and/or emotional abuse…
If he’s undermined you and condemned you as an angry, codependent, controlling gold-digger…
If you think your husband might be an addict or narcissist. Or even if he’s “just” a jerk…
If your husband (or ex) is miserable to be around, this podcast is for YOU.
Living Free Workshop
Group Sessions

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277 episodes

#Fitness #Society #Relationship #Mental Health #Anne Blythe, M.Ed #Anne Blythe #Emotional Abuse #Sexuality

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG podcast artwork

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

66 subscribers

updated about 10 hours ago

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Content provided by Anne Blythe, M.Ed. and Anne Blythe. All podcast content including episodes, graphics, and podcast descriptions are uploaded and provided directly by Anne Blythe, M.Ed. and Anne Blythe or their podcast platform partner. If you believe someone is using your copyrighted work without your permission, you can follow the process outlined here https://player.fm/legal.

No woman wants to face the horror of her husband’s betrayal. Or have to recover from the emotional, physical & financial trauma and never-ending consequences.
But these courageous women DID. And we’ll walk with you, so YOU can too.
If you’re experiencing pain, chaos, and isolation due to your husband’s lying, anger, gaslighting, manipulation, infidelity, and/or emotional abuse…
If he’s undermined you and condemned you as an angry, codependent, controlling gold-digger…
If you think your husband might be an addict or narcissist. Or even if he’s “just” a jerk…
If your husband (or ex) is miserable to be around, this podcast is for YOU.
Living Free Workshop
Group Sessions

… continue reading

277 episodes

#Fitness #Society #Relationship #Mental Health #Anne Blythe, M.Ed #Anne Blythe #Emotional Abuse #Sexuality

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Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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Warning Signs Your Husband Is Dangerous – Susan’s Story With Dave Cawley 35:24

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How To Protect Yourself Financially If Your Marriage Is Struggling 37:38

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It’s shocking how common financial abuse in divorce is. Here are the best ways to protect yourself. Divorce is hard. If you’ve been married to a narcissistic abuser, it can feel even more impossible to break free. These individuals often don’t stop their controlling behavior after a divorce is filed. Instead, they escalate their attempts to assert power. One of the most common—and devastating—ways narcissistic abusers do this is through financial abuse . If you’re a woman divorcing a narcissist, it’s vital to understand how financial abuse works and how to protect yourself. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz . What Is Financial Abuse in Divorce? Financial abuse is an abuser’s way of gaining and maintaining power by controlling access to money and resources. During a divorce, this often includes tactics like withholding financial support, hiding assets, or intentionally complicating legal and financial processes. To wreak havoc on their victim’s stability. The abuse doesn’t necessarily stop after divorce—it can take on new, cruel forms, keeping victims entangled in elaborate schemes long after ties should have been cut. Why Do Narcissists Use Financial Abuse In Divorce? Narcissistic abusers are motivated by control. They want to undermine your autonomy, manipulate your decisions, and make you dependent on them. Anne Blythe, the founder of Betrayal Trauma Recovery, explains it clearly, “Narcissistic abusers are very calculated. They control where, when, and how they show their true colors. At home, they ‘lose their temper.’ Outside of it, they maintain a polished, socially acceptable image. Financial abuse is yet another method for them to assert power at your expense.” When you understand that financial abuse stems from their need for control—not because of your mistakes or shortcomings—you’re better equipped to set boundaries and protect your well-being. Financial Abuse In Divorce Tactics Financial abuse takes many forms. These are some of the most common examples of what narcissists might do to use financial abuse in divorce proceedings to maintain control over your life: 1. Hiding Income or Assets An abuser may attempt to conceal money, savings accounts, or investments to make it appear as though they have less than they do. This could limit the entitled financial settlement. One victim shared, “He told us he was so poor that our church had to pay his mortgage and car payment—almost $2,000 a month. But when my lawyer looked at his financial records, we found out the truth. He spent thousands of dollars on alcohol and other bad stuff, and even putting a lot of money into his retirement account while pretending he had no money.” 2. Cancelling Credit Cards or Withholding Financial Support It’s not uncommon for abusers to cancel shared credit cards or refuse to pay child or spousal support during the divorce process, leaving victims unable to meet daily expenses. 3. Overwhelming With Legal Delays Dragging out divorce proceedings is another method of control. By filing unnecessary motions, refusing to negotiate, or missing deadlines, abusers increase costs and prolong the emotional strain to maintain dominance. 4. Sabotaging Employment Some women report that abusers interfere with their ability to work—such as creating emotional stress, harassing them at work, or withholding child care arrangements—to keep them dependent on the abuser’s finances. The abuser uses these tactics to exhaust you, and designed to make you feel stuck. The good news? You can overcome them. 5. Manipulating Child Visitation They might withhold child support payments or use visitation schedules to intentionally disrupt your financial planning. What It Feels Like Post-divorce financial abuse can feel relentless. Another victim of financial abuse after divorce said. “For over two years, I dealt with him purposefully withholding child support and blocking me from accessing what the court decided was mine.” How To Protect Yourself From Financial Abuse Protecting yourself from financial abuse requires awareness, preparation, and boundaries. Here are the most effective actions to take: Work With a Trusted Family Lawyer : Hire an experienced lawyer who understands financial abuse. They can help you subpoena records like bank statements and tax returns, ensuring hidden assets don’t slip through the cracks. Discuss protective measures like restraining orders, mediation, or legally established limits with your divorce attorney. These can stop further harassment or financial tampering. Collect and Organize Financial Documentation : Gather everything—pay stubs, credit card statements, bank records, tax returns, and more. Keep copies in a secure, private location or store them digitally for easy access. Open Individual Accounts : Set up a personal checking and savings account in your name. Immediately update your paycheck direct deposits and remove your abuser’s access to shared accounts. Learn Strategy : It’s imperative that you learn how to think strategically about and communicate with a narcissist. Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to learn more. Seek Expert Emotional Support : You don’t have to go through this alone. There are resources, like the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast or group sessions, where women who’ve faced similar challenges can offer advice and emotional support. Finding Empowerment & Healing from Financial Abuse During Divorce Financial abuse is one of the hardest forms of abuse to endure, especially during something as emotional as divorce. However, with the right tools, planning, and support, you can rise above it. Remember, what they do says a lot about them—and nothing about you. Focus on building your own emotional and financial security, so you can live free from their control. If you’re struggling to process or prepare for financial abuse, Betrayal Trauma Recovery is here to help, join one of our group sessions for women or explore our workshops to gain valuable skills in navigating financial and emotional abuse. You deserve safety, security, and peace. Transcript: Financial Abuse in Divorce: How To Protect Yourself I have Brenda on today’s episode. She’s going to share her expertise as a financial advisor about financial abuse in divorce. Welcome, Brenda. Brenda: Hello, Anne. It’s really good to be here Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today. Let’s talk about finances. Brenda: Because everyone is always so excited to talk about finances, right? Anne: One of the things I want to ask victims is, if you had a billion dollars, would you stay married to him? And the answer is usually no. They’re so afraid because they’re trapped. They don’t know how they’re going to take care of their kids, and they don’t want to work. They didn’t sign up for that. Sometimes they do work, but figuring out how I support a family by myself is so overwhelming. What are the best ways to take financial stuff off the table, so women can make decisions based on their safety, not finances? Brenda: I love your question about if you had a billion dollars. I think that’s very clarifying. Gathering Financial Information Brenda: And that gives an indication of, are they staying in that space, relationship or marriage because they hope things will change? Or is it simplified? Is it solely financial? And then if the answer to the billion dollar question is no, I would not stay here. I would want out. Information is power. So that’s where you start gathering information. And oftentimes, an individual who does leave an abusive relationship might have the means, they might be protected. They might be okay financially. But someone keeps them in the dark, perhaps about their financial situation.So they might not have the financial records, they might not know what their spouse makes. They might be on an allowance. If you don’t have financial information about your family. Or if your family’s financial situation is in shape. It’s hard to know. You’re just in a space of fear because it’s unknown. Will you face financial abuse in divorce? So the first thing is to become knowledgeable, if you can, about your true financial situation. Sometimes it can be overt. They could talk to their spouse about needing access. And depending on whom they’re dealing with, they might get it. Or, if they don’t have any access, then it becomes, let’s call it a treasure hunt. Where you’re picking up bits and pieces of the financial picture to try to understand what your options are, what your situation is. The other piece of that, if you’re considering leaving and if leaving means divorce, is to get smart about what the rules are in your area. I’ve heard it said there are like 33 hundred counties in the United States, something like that. Don’t quote me on the exact number. Financial Abuse In Divorce: The Importance of Financial Knowledge Brenda: And there are just as many ways to be divorced. So rules vary state by state rules and rights. They vary from municipality to municipality. That at least gives people grounding or information data to start figuring out, you know, would they be okay? Anne: In The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop , we have a section about finances, and Living Free is not about getting divorced. It’s about seeing reality. In the beginning, when women got to that part, they were like, does she want me to get divorced? And the answer is not yes or no. I’m not trying to push anybody in any direction, but I want them safe. And financial safety is such a huge part of this puzzle. In Living Free, when people talk about physical abuse, many people who listen to this podcast are not necessarily physically assaulted. They’re not being punched, they don’t have bruises. They’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse and coercion, it’s difficult to see. I want people to start to think about the threats of not having a home, not putting food on the table, not having a roof over your head, not being able to pay for gas to get around, that is a physical threat. This is why getting to physical safety is part of deliverance from abuse . Brenda: Sure. It’s your basic fundamental human needs. Anne: Exactly, so if they’re threatening, if you divorce me. Then you’ll never be able to take care of yourself. There will be financial abuse in divorce. Are you thinking that in your mind is a physical threat? It’s extremely physical, and I see it as physical abuse. So think, is this threat of physical harm the thing that keeps me from getting to safety? Steps To Financial Safety Anne: Being educated about your finances and what you need is one step toward not just financial safety, but also physical safety. Because if you know you can take care of yourself, that is such a relief. Even if I never got any money from him, I could keep a roof over my head, pay my bills and buy food. That sort of thing. Brenda: And it lets people figure out what other information they need and what decisions they need to make. If baseline is, oh, I could… Everyone is different. I could go back to work. In our area. There are programs that help women in abusive situations retrain and get to a living wage. Is that available near you? Do you have enough assets that you have every right to take? Every situation will be different. But unless you have the information, you can’t figure out what your next steps are. Anne: When you said talk to him, that made me nervous, because I was like, whoa. You might tip him off, and then he might start hiding money, which is financial abuse in divorce. And he might start manipulating you. So aside from talking to him, what tips do you have for how they can start to find information about their finances? Brenda: I’m just going to backtrack to talking to him for a minute. Yes, it could. And everyone knows their relationship and situation better than anyone else. I have had people who will get the information, and they do use a ruse. It will be, I need it to sign Susie up for soccer, or I want to go to this workshop with my sister, and learn how to understand taxes. Can I have our tax return? The Role Of Credit Reports Brenda: So it might not be overt, and they still have access to the information. I would say anywhere you can get it. If you can get logins, yes, then you can go online. However, there are flags there, because if you log into the bank account, that bank account or credit card might register the login. They might be set so that there’s an alert. Someone logged into your account at 2:24 this afternoon. You got to be aware that that’s out there too. If. You are in such a situation where you’re cut off from all of that information. So it just as asking someone directly could present danger, know that logging into things could as well. Anne: That is a good point, I hadn’t thought of that. I like the ruse idea, that, hey, I’m going to be logging into this thing, can I have the login? Because I’m doing blah blah blah, that is a reason not related to him. Not like, you seem like you’re an abuser. I’m considering leaving you, and I don’t want to experience financial abuse in divorce. Can I have the login? It’s probably the worst idea, I think Brenda: You’re exposing yourself. So unfortunately, as you and your listeners all know, you’re walking a fine line, and they’re in a precarious situation, but they also usually know. I know from my own experience, I would often know the things that were going to, like tee up an issue, explosion or anger. Sometimes you don’t. And sometimes that’s another problem, right? It’s out of the blue. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Facing Realities Brenda: Hey, I just put cheese on that sandwich. I didn’t think it was going to. …cause World War III. Anne: They get unpredictable when they feel like they don’t have control. And so that’s why I’m concerned about like, so many women have told me, oh, he’ll never do that. Never underestimate how much your narcissist ex doesn’t want to leave you alone. So many of our clients here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, they’re like, oh, I’m getting divorced, but I’ve got it all ready to go. It’s going to go well. He told me he’ll always take care of me. And then, like a hundred percent of the time, it does not. They experience financial abuse in divorce. And it goes the way he manipulated her to think it’s going to go, it always goes sideways. Brenda: And the system is built for that. People often going through divorce think, I will be heard, finally. The system will protect me. I trust the system to do its job. It’s not going to. We don’t even know what the job is half the time. If you get all the way to trial, the decisions are being made by a judge who might be late for a dentist appointment. They’re paying half or no attention to your story. And then they’re going to rule. You can’t trust the system, you can know the rules. You can try to figure out what is your bottom line? What’s your worst case scenario? Where are you protected? Where are you exposed? But circling back to like where you can get the information. Becoming Your Own Investigator Brenda: You turn yourself into a little sleuth. So your own little private investigator, do you get the mail when the mail comes in? Do bills come? You can order a credit report, and you can do that separately. So at least, you know what credit cards exist, and how long they’ve existed. That’s another way that sometimes exposes hidden debts or hidden money. It depends on your situation in your household and where the safe conversations are. And a lot of that is, I would say, catering to the abuser. Anne: I would say strategically talking to him rather than catering, but yes. Brenda: Yes, so you’re figuring out. What is the information you’re looking for? How can you get it? What is a viable reason for having it that isn’t going to create a situation that’s going to make life more difficult for you? And worsen financial abuse in divorce. Anne: Getting a credit report. That’s a good idea, because then you can see the stuff that he’s pulled. Can he have his own separate credit report that she can’t see some stuff on? Brenda: Yes. Anne: Okay, so she wouldn’t be able to see like a credit card that he applied for all by himself. Brenda: Depending on the information she has, she might order a credit report for him. Anne: Oh, if she knows his information, she could order it. Brenda: And the question you ask is what’s the bounce back? Is he going to be alerted that there was a credit pool, but you can find that out before you do it, rather than be surprised after. So it’s just a question to ask. Anne: Yeah. Overcoming Overwhelm Anne: What I have found with victims is that the whole situation is so overwhelming. Trying to make decisions, trying to figure out what to do, is so overwhelming. It feels like you’ve got problem after problem, after problem just piled on top of you. That’s why figuring out how long it will take to recover from your husband’s emotional abuse is impossible. And there’s no way to get out from under it. Talking about maybe just doing one thing today to try to reduce the overwhelm when it comes to finances, any ideas there so that it’s not so overwhelming? Brenda: So are you asking in the case of someone who plans to leave the relationship? Anne: No, here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we only talk about safety. So just so that you are financially safe, so that you feel financially safe. And also so that you know how much money you would need if he divorced you, for example. So this physical and financial safety, what I’m talking about, is just being. educated about your financial situation. How much your house payment is, how much houses cost in your area, how much you could make if you got a job at the library. You know, just basic information. I feel like information leads to emotional, financial, and physical safety when it comes to like, how much do I need to have a roof over my head? And I think regardless of what path you take to safety, you need to know this. There may be financial abuse in divorce. Brenda: You’re looking at four major categories. What you have, what you spend, what you owe and what you earn. And anytime you start accumulating that information, it’s also future casting, right? You can then picture yourself perhaps in a different situation or safer situation, because you’ve got a little bit of that information. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Building A Secure Future Brenda: What can you earn, like you said, what can you earn working at the library? Were you working, and maybe you were a teacher, and your credentials are out of date? What would it take to get those back? So you can be hired. Are schools in the area hiring? Is that something you would want to go back to? So it’s all building information. So you can be more prepared if there is financial abuse in divorce. That would be in the what you earn category. What it takes to live? You can get online, or if the newspaper still exists in your area, get a newspaper. What does an apartment cost? Do you need a car? What would that cost? Do you currently have one? Just starting to put together the pieces of what would it take for you to be secure food, shelter, clothing? Is that available to you? What are your options there? Every little bit of additional information you can gather is more than you had before. And hopefully both empowering and putting you in a safer place, just because you are then more informed. Anne: You saying that reminds me of this class I had in high school. In high school, we were paired up with a partner. Mine, his name was Tony. I remember this well. And then we drew little slips of paper for, like, your job. Different things about you and you pulled them out. That was your scenario. I was paired up with Tony because he had a car and I didn’t, and we were to go out and find an apartment. that we could afford and buy groceries and figure it all out. High School Class About Finances & Gathering Information Anne: So we would drive around, and that was so helpful. I was like, whoa, it was at that time that I personally decided to go to college. Because I had a job at the time, and I knew there was no way I could afford this apartment on the job I currently have that I do after school. And it helped me put two and two together as a teenager. But then I’m thinking about the divorce coaching clients we have at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, because many of our coaches are certified divorce coaches. And I remember one of them was talking about one of our clients, who she thought I could never do this. I can never do that. But once they went through all the financial stuff, she realized that all she needed was an extra thousand dollars a month. That was it. Then when she figured that out, she thought, Oh, I can easily get a job that earns me a thousand dollars a month. And I’d still afford my house. And once she had that information, she could move forward on the path she thought was the safest for her. Getting this information is so helpful. And especially if you don’t know what you want to decide, I think getting the information will help you make that decision. Brenda: When their faces light up and they’re like, Oh, I can do this. I’m going to be okay. And sometimes at first blush, the first pass at looking at what it’s going to cost might not be okay, but at least then they know what it’s going to take. Maybe we can’t be in safety right now, but this is what it will take me to get there. Personal Financial Realizations Anne: You’ve had personal experience with this. Can you talk about how these issues came into play with your own personal experience? How did infidelity or financial abuse affect you in divorce? Brenda: As I went through years and years of my relationship, it became more abusive and more covert. And when I look back now, I can say, Oh my goodness, what was I thinking? Who was that person? And there’s a lot of shame. There’s a lot of guilt. There’s a lot of baggage in the things that became okay over the years. And I didn’t see it until I was away from it. I knew in my heart that it was not okay to be screamed at in the street because of some small thing, right. And called names, and repeatedly verbally abused. But it happened so gradually over time. That it was just my normal. It was what I was used to. And it took starting to step away from the relationship to look back and reframe and see how bad things were. There were times when my husband literally asked other women out in front of me, and then gaslit me. Like, oh no, it didn’t happen that way. You’re making a big deal out of it. https://youtu.be/F1AfegOLcU4 She’s just a business connection or whatever. Which it sounds telling now, like how on earth could you stand there and watch that happen? Go home and make dinner, and put the kids to bed or whatever our normal was. And I think it was just normalized. And the only way I got clear on this is not okay. Was with people, either friends or professionals, who after a while could see and validate. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Support & Validation Brenda: Oftentimes, we’re told, oh, that’s not a big deal. Oh, he had a bad day. Oh, whatever the excuse is, it’s still an excuse. And it is not okay to diminish people, swear at people, abuse people and hide information. And then with people who are, again, professionals, the therapist who, instead of saying, this is how you accommodate him. Who say, how do we support you? And I see you and the behavior. It’s not normal, rational or acceptable, but sometimes it takes getting permission, I think from others. Who instead of saying, suck it up, you can do this, you just have to keep accommodating. Say you are worthy, whole, valuable, and this is the only life you have. You don’t need to live it this way. Once you start getting more voices who are giving you that support, you can start to see a different reality. You can start to see space where you can have a valuable life. Where you can control your own decisions, where you’re not always walking on eggshells waiting for the next blow up or bad thing to happen. Anne: Yeah, I think so many women, at least women, who come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, have been to a lot of therapy. They’ve asked their friends and family for help, and often, no one has told them, this is abuse. Many of them have experienced financial abuse in divorce. Brenda: It’s how you can change, how you can accommodate, how you can change yourself and make it okay. But the answer I think is, it’s not okay. It is abuse, and no one deserves that. Financial Decisions & Safety Anne: Once women realize, once I realized it, through whatever way they do it. Some women learn it from listening to the podcast. There are many ways that you can realize, oh, this is abuse. Then when you’ve got the right pair of glasses to actually see reality for what it is. Then you can start making decisions, that help you start healing from this hidden abuse . Which I think comes into the financial piece. Because once you know the reality of your financial situation, you can start making decisions. I’m thinking of another woman who thought her husband had a ton of money. And so she thought that in divorce, she would get a lot, so she wasn’t worried about getting a job. She wasn’t opposed to getting a job at all. She just didn’t think about it. Then when she found out more, she realized he was in so much debt that it was better for her to not take anything from him and just let him have his debt. And then she was free to build her life the way she wanted, and not be saddled with all the debt he had accrued. And in her situation, that helped her move forward, realizing I’m going to go back to college and start a career. Brenda: We are then working through their finances and what’s feasible, and just call it, what does it cost to live? That’s what we’re really figuring out. A woman in an abusive relationship trying to figure out what her options were. And at first blush, she looked at what now she had access to their finances. And could protect herself from financial abuse in divorce. But she looked at what they had. She’s like, oh, I’m going to have half a million dollars. I’m set for life. Planning Ahead Brenda: Let’s work through this. Let’s do the math and figure out what would it take for her to live for her kids, for their schooling, for their, all the things. And it came up to about a hundred thousand dollars a year. So half a million dollars after taxes, call it $350, 000. That’s going to get you through about three and a half years. So now you have that information, good. You’re going to be okay for three and a half years. And then what? Or, if you don’t want to dip into that, what are your options now? For me, every little bit of information you have adds to the pieces of this puzzle you’re putting together for what your life can look like. What is safety to you? What is acceptable to you? The more information you have, the better you are able to make your own decisions. And protect yourself from financial abuse in divorce. Anne: In some cases, I hear about women hiring a forensic accountant, and professionals like that help with their divorce cases. Can you talk more about specialized services like a forensic accountant? What does somebody like that do? Things that women might need to consider when looking at finances. Brenda: So a forensic accountant will dig deep into the nitty gritty of the family finances. Sometimes looking for misspending, hidden money, things like that. Sometimes involved in putting values to things. So if you’re dividing things, you got to know what you’re dividing. What is it worth? So a forensic accountant is often worthwhile when there are big financial questions or money might be hidden somewhere. It’s harder and harder to hide money. Because there’s an electronic trail, a paper trail, and tax trails, for almost every transaction we do. Financial Abuse In Divorce: The Cost Of Financial Investigations Brenda: Unless you’re dealing in cash or trade, it has a trail, so it’s harder to hide. It’s not impossible, but it’s harder. For most people, it’s not necessary if you don’t have a complex situation. Often hired, often overkill, if there’s not a lot of money at stake. So I had a client come to me about a year ago, and she was sure, absolutely sure her husband was hiding money. But when we kept talking about it, the amount she thought he was hiding. It would have cost her so much more money to find it than it was worth. So we’ve got to figure out what it’s worth. Is it millions at stake? Are there tens of thousands of dollars missing? Then it’s probably worthwhile. If we’re talking a thousand dollars, that might have set aside. You will probably pay much more in professional fees to track that down. Than you’re ever going to get back. As you’re approaching all this and trying to get smarter about your financial situation. Whether you’re aware of everything. Some of the good questions to ask yourself are at what cost? What’s the return on that investment? If you get that information, is it $5 or $50,000? How much are you willing to spend to get it? A forensic accountant is expensive. The spouse took out a credit card that his wife wasn’t aware of, and spent it on pornography, and a woman in Eastern Europe he kept sending money to. So he would draw it off the credit card. She was incensed, and she was very hurt. They actually went through the divorce process, and she wanted an accounting of what he had spent. So she wouldn’t be a victim of financial abuse in divorce. Is It Cost Effective To Investigate? Brenda: And I completely understand that. They weren’t in a financial situation where they could throw money away freely. But in fact, what he had spent was about $500. It was a lot, but it would have cost so much more to trace that money. It wasn’t worth it. So in that case, she knew about it. They could use it in their discussions. She’s never going to get that money back. He already spent it, but tracing it wasn’t worthwhile. Another woman did go through, it was 10,000 pages of credit card bills they gave her in a hard copy. But we found $250,000 that he had spent on a girlfriend. That was definitely worth it. Anne: So, depending on what it is, I feel the same way about alimony, for example. If the lifetime value of spousal support is $80,000, let’s say, like $10,000 for eight years, and you spend $150, 000 getting that. You should think about the numbers here. When dealing with financial abuse in divorce. Brenda: Do some math. Anne: Yeah, you do some math and figure that out on the flip side of this. I have heard of a few victims who are like, I will start hiding money, and they have the impression, and this may be true. I am unschooled on this part of it. So they’re like, I’m going to start putting money here so they can’t find it, so I’m not going to get stuck paying him alimony. Can you talk about that? Is there a way to legally protect yourself from that? For women who think there is a way to hide the money, can you maybe talk them through this situation? Brenda: Maybe, but at what cost? Legal & Ethical Considerations Brenda: First of all, is there a legal way to hide money? Not really. In that case, if you’re going through divorce, you’re signing a contract on file with the court. And you’re essentially saying whether it’s mediation, collaborative process, litigation, whatever you go through. Every document I’ve ever seen says I told the truth and disclosed everything. So that’s pretty heavy. If you’re going to hide money and you’re still okay with signing that, and then it’s found out later, you’re not in a good situation. So again, was it worth it? Is there a legal way? There are tricks that people and groups will share about how to stash away a little cash. Sometimes it might be necessary. I’ve seen partners cut their partner off and stop paying the bills out of spite. That is financial abuse in divorce. Anne: That happened to me. I was completely cut off from finances, yeah. Brenda: If you could be at risk and say physical safety of not being able to have food, shelter and clothing, you’re not able to live safely. Can you set aside money? Yes, the hiding it part is where it gets tricky. If the money is marital, you have a right to it. It is not uncommon. I’m here not working, raising the kids, and I don’t have anything of my own. Yes, you do. You have just as much right. You’re not being paid for your work, but it’s not his retirement account. It is marital. There’s a caveat to everything. If he had it before you got married, that part’s not marital. But anything earned or saved during a marriage, unless it’s a gift or inheritance, because again, caveat, is marital, you have a right to it. Financial Abuse In Divorce: Different Laws In Different States Brenda: It’s not like you’re hiding and stealing if you’re taking money to ensure you can live. Anne: In my case, I had paid $100,000 of his school debt when we got married. That was pre-marital assets in my case, because I was a teacher for 10 years and saved well and a bunch of stuff. And I did not get that back, because I apparently commingled it. Then my grandma, when she died, had given me a small sum of money. You’re saying if it’s an inheritance, it’s yours. During mediation, instead of saying it’s the law, I’ll give it to her. He said, I know how much she loved her grandma, and I would never want to take that away from her. As if he was just being so nice. Instead of me realizing in that moment, he was just trying to look good when he had to give it back, no matter what. Brenda: He had to give it back if it stayed in your name. If you put it in a joint bank account, not the case. Anne: It was in a joint bank account. So maybe he was “being nice.” Brenda: Yeah. Anne: He wasn’t. Brenda: Exactly, he was looking good. Anne: For whatever reason he wanted to look good. Brenda: I guess this is the difference between a financial advisor who you might have to help plan your retirement and what have you. And a certified divorce financial analyst, because divorce has its own money roles. They are actually different partnerships, depending on the state you live in, and can have their own money rules. Some recognize it like a common law marriage, even if you’re not married. Others don’t, and your rights vary depending on where you live. Anne: Yeah. Empowerment & Rights Anne: That’s good to know. With your financial experience, what would you say to women skeptical about their financial future, victims of financial abuse in divorce? Brenda: I would say you have value and rights, it is in your best interest to know them. Sometimes you’re not going to like what you learn, but you’ll have the information you need to start seeing a different future. To take control of your own situation. Even if it’s a little thing at a time, if you are not safe, and that doesn’t feel good. And you’ve been gaslit or brainwashed to believe you don’t have rights to have financial information. Everything in the marriage belongs to the abuser, not to you. You have been told you’re lucky to be there. I would say you’re probably not lucky to be there. The more you surround yourself with the support of people who tell you that you have value, that you have worth. As challenging or huge as moving out of that space might seem. Even a little step, like a little crack in the situation, can then become bigger. Hopefully, you’ll find yourself in a space where you are safe. Whether it’s married or not in a relationship, where you are safe and valued. Often in an abusive situation, you are made to feel small, and as though you owe something to the abuser. You don’t, you are complete, whole and valuable. You don’t have to give in to financial abuse in divorce. Anne: Thank you so much for coming on today’s episode and sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it. Her website is bridgingdivorcesolutions.com. Brenda, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. Brenda: Thank you, I appreciate it. I appreciate the work you do. It’s incredibly important.…

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What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? What You Need To Know If Your Husband Is An Addict 36:10

14 days ago36:10

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When a woman uncovers her husband’s infidelity, she might seek help from an addiction therapist. The therapist may recommend a therapeutic disclosure. What is a therapeutic disclosure? To summarize, here are 4 things you need to know. A therapeutic disclosure is a process that involves the addict disclosing their full history to a therapist and his wife. In theory, the purpose is to provide the betrayed wife with all the information she needs, so she can make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward. However, at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we don’t recommend it. Here’s why 1. Therapists mis-identify why he “needs” a Therapeutic Disclosure A therapist may suggest that your husband needs a therapeutic disclosure, but what exactly is he disclosing? If the things he’s disclosing qualify as emotional, psychological or some other type of abuse, it’s not recommended that you participate in his therapy or a therapist led disclosure in any way. To see if any of the things he’s disclosing qualify as emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz . 2. A Therapeutic Disclosure may Put You In Harms Way Because therapeutic disclosures keep women in proximity to possibly abusive behavior, it’s important to know that abusive men often use the “trickle” method to selectively “disclose”, but it’s really calculated to manipulate and control her. 3. Abuse Experts Know Therapeutic Anything Makes Abuse Worse Abusive men aren’t abusive because of things like childhood trauma or feeling ashamed. They’re abusive because they choose to be. If they have problems like trauma or shame, they could choose other ways to cope, like exercising, eating too much, or even building model trains. Abuse is always a choice. Therapy helps figure out why someone acts the way they do. But an abusive man can confuse his therapist and wife by making up lots of “reasons” for the so-called root cause. These excuses can take over and become the focus. It’s better to avoid being part of an abusive man’s therapy altogether. 4. What Should I Do Instead Of Asking For A Therapeutic Disclosure? Instead of convincing a husband to do a therapeutic disclosure, women who experience betrayal can focus on their own emotional and psychological safety. Learn More About Why Lying Is Abusive: Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast . Determine Her Husband’s True Character: Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to determine if your husband is this type of abuser, and if you discover he is, learn emotional safety strategies to protect yourself . Get Professional Support : Facing this type of abuse is difficult. There is a community of women who understand. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Transcript: What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? Anne: It’s just me today. I’m going to be talking about therapeutic disclosures. When you discover your husband is looking at online content, lying, having affairs, or soliciting. Someone might tell you, or you may think he’s a sex addict. And if you go to addiction therapy. There’s a high likelihood that an addiction therapist, will have him do a therapeutic disclosure. So we’re going to talk about why I think therapeutic disclosures are dangerous. And then you decide what you want to do after listening to what I have to say. So, first of all, what is a therapeutic disclosure? It is a process that involves the addict disclosing their full history to his wife. In a “so-called structured way” with the guidance of a therapist. In theory, the purpose of a therapeutic disclosure is to provide the betrayed wife all the information she needs. For her to make informed decisions about the relationship moving forward. Now, I want to talk about all the reasons why that doesn’t make sense. First of all, their history does not include all the times they manipulated their wife over little and big things. All the lies, all the emotional and psychological abuse, and the coercion. It does not address his abuse, which is the actual problem. If you take that to the next logical step, you might say, then I’m going to get them in an abuse program. Well, an abuse program is pretty much the exact same thing. It’s in a couple setting where the wife says, Hey, these are the things I need to see. This is what I want to know. The Role Of Therapists In Disclosures Anne: There’s really no difference. Your abusive husband can manipulate the therapist . He can take his time and drag it out. Like he has a lot of control to exploit that situation. So abuse experts understand that anything therapeutic will worsen the abuse. Because men aren’t abusive because of their childhood trauma or shame, or for any other reason other than they want to exploit people. I know many people with childhood trauma. I feel shame. And I watch a lot of TV sometimes, or I might go for a walk. I call my sister, you know, some people use model trains. Abuse is not the only option here. There are so many other options. Nothing’s gonna stop him from wanting to exploit the situation. Except for him wanting to stop. And if he wanted to stop, he wouldn’t be like that in the first place. So abuse is a choice. The purpose of therapy is to uncover the underlying cause of a person’s behavior. So in therapy, an abusive, manipulative, deceitful man will run the therapist and his wife in circles. He’ll give both of them all sorts of reasons. And most of these reasons are lies, and then these “reasons” take on a life of their own. So it’s best to stay away from being involved in an abusive man’s therapy, treatment, or program at all costs. A therapist could tell you that a therapeutic disclosure is important, to “avoid trickle disclosures.” And that sounds like a good idea. If a therapist tells you we’re going to do this, so you can get the whole truth. So he doesn’t just give you a little information. here and there. Therapeutic Disclosures & Continued Abuse Anne: But what they won’t tell you is this is just an abuser lying. He’ll disclose bits of information tactically to manipulate, distress you or drag things out. They know that this process of disclosing things at tactical times gives them control. So they’re going to prolong the process for as long as possible to maintain that control. Throughout that whole thing she’s still unsafe. She’s unsafe at every point. Not realizing she’s being lied to and manipulated, staying in contact with his constant abuse. Most often in the form of grooming. And because they’re doing this, victims undergo immense trauma for that time. Now, even if they don’t realize it, it seems like it’s going well. So many women come to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and share six months after the disclosure or two years later. They realize what was happening. And they realized it was all lies and manipulation. They are so traumatized that they spent that much time basically just in this fog. With a therapist possibly enabling their continued abuse. Years ago, when I started podcasting, I interviewed a C-SAT about disclosures. She disagrees with me and thinks disclosures are great. And she uses them in her practice. When I interviewed her, it was really at the beginning. I didn’t love disclosures, but I was willing to have an open-mind. I posted the interview on my podcast, and then pretty soon after removed it. Because I realized this is problematic, and I don’t want to hurt someone’s reputation. My podcast isn’t a gotcha podcast. I appreciate everyone who has spent the time to come and be interviewed. What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? Community Feedback Anne: Sometimes I disagree with people. And because of the way the interview goes, I don’t air that episode. Because I want to make sure I’m putting out the best information that I feel good about. I also want to acknowledge that some of you may have actually gone through this process, and it worked out great for you. If you feel that way, go to the bottom of this transcript, and comment. You can interact with our community about your experience. If it worked for you, I’m so glad it did. I don’t want to recommend it to anyone. And I’ll tell you the reasons why, but I also don’t want you to feel bad if you did it and it worked out great for you. Everybody is different. But reading the transcript of this podcast from years ago, which hasn’t even been in circulation, right? I took it out of circulation years ago. We talked about what is a therapeutic disclosure. There are so many important points that I wanted to talk about. Now part of that episode was that we sent out a call for questions about disclosures at that time. And women wrote in their questions. So here’s a question that we received. One community member asked. Shouldn’t it be up to the wife to know or ask anything she needs to, even if it hurts her and causes her more pain? Is pain the enemy here? Isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation far more dangerous? So that was the first question. Therapists’ Assumptions & Misconceptions Anne: Now this therapist said she thought it was up to the partner to decide the level of detail they wanted in the disclosure. Which is fascinating to me that this therapist assumed this guy would somehow tell the truth. Or that she could get the level of information she actually wanted. He’s super manipulative. So putting a woman in this position where you’re giving her the impression that she can get information. If he is a liar who manipulates people, is super scary. The woman who asked the question says, isn’t unknowingly being in an unsafe situation, far more dangerous? Yes, a hundred percent, but the disclosure itself is an unsafe situation. I’m going to talk about what to do, instead of a disclosure at the end. So keep listening, because I will give you an alternative. This therapist said when she starts disclosures, and I’m going to do a quote here. She said, “For me, when I’m leading disclosures or doing trainings about disclosures, I encourage partners to start with the least amount of detail. You can ask more, you have a right to ask for more information, but let’s be slow and careful. That it’s not too much information for your brain. Some of this information will be traumatic for you.” Like, you know, it’s going to be really traumatic for you. And so maybe you shouldn’t find out that it is insane for a therapist to say this. I can’t believe I had this episode up for a while. The Importance Of Truth In Healing Anne: This therapist said, “So sometimes people get caught up in the emotion, and they want to know more and more. And that’s fine if they want to know, but I always ask them. Do you want to know? Is it going to be helpful in your healing?” Why would not knowing the truth be helpful in any situation? Like you can’t heal without the truth. Because if you don’t know what the truth is about the situation, you can’t make good choices. So why would anyone imply it’s okay? To not be aware of who your husband really is. Why would a therapist want to hide a man’s true character from his wife? Then I asked the therapist. What about safety issues, like isn’t that the most important thing? And she was like, oh, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. We need to think about safety, but that was not the first thing she said. And she didn’t even mention it. Instead she was like, Does she want to know the truth or does she want to heal? And when it came to safety, the only thing she mentioned was getting an STD test. She did not tell me how to set boundaries . And I thought. You’re not going to mention that lying is emotional abuse , or the psychological abuse, or grooming? The fact that the thing you’re doing right now, her involvement with his therapy, his addiction recovery. Is counter-indicated when it comes to abuse. And you’re not talking about abuse. That’s dangerous. What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? Safety Concerns Anne: So when I asked her this. This was her response. She said, “I work with addicts and their partners. When I work with an addict and help him prepare his disclosure. What is a therapeutic disclosure? We’re looking at all the categories of behavior and addiction. He may not have behavior in all categories, but I want them to go through an inventory of every category. And then she starts talking about literally the details of the acting out, like specific ways he has behaved. And she starts delineating these things, and I’m like, what about abuse? She’s still not even saying this man is abusive and manipulative. How does all the different ways he had cheated, help her know that this is abuse? So then I asked her. What about other questions that aren’t related to this kind of behavior? Like lying. So I keep trying to go back to this, and she said that’s a hard one, because addicts have lied for so long. It’s hard for them to go through all the lies and correct all the lies in a disclosure. But isn’t that the point of a disclosure to find out the truth? You’re just going to hear me getting frustrated as I talk about this interview and the things she told me. Because it starts going around and around in circles. And I’m trying, but she doesn’t want to connect the dots. And so it got more frustrating as time went on. Then she says something that we absolutely do not recommend. And you’ll know why at the end. What is a therapeutic disclosure? She says the addict prepares a disclosure document. Writing Past Behaviors Down & Lying Anne: So basically, you’re giving this man a lot of time. What is a therapeutic disclosure? He writes down all his manipulative reasons and craft this narrative any way he wants. To paint himself any way he chooses. Usually they paint themselves where they’re a victim in some way, they’re a victim because their dad didn’t love them enough. Or they’re a victim because their relationship with their mom is bad or they’re a victim because their dog died. So really, this disclosure is just putting her in the position to be lied to more. And the therapist said, okay, so she’s going to get this paper of this narrative that he concocted? And that’s when she gets to start asking him questions about it. But if he’s going to continue to lie. Do you see the problem? We’re going in circles. And this is a direct quote. She said, “Sometimes the disclosure can be a time for lies. Sometimes there are so many lies. The addict will never be able to tell the truth about them all. And the question is, Is the addict trying to live, honestly? Has he lied to her to protect her? What? No, nope, that’s not the reason. And then she says this, and this is what I just talked about. “And usually the lying comes from a behavior much younger, and from another time. It doesn’t excuse it, but it does explain it. And then we can get to the root of it.” Like, no, he just lied because he chose to, and he’s continuing the lie because he chooses to. The Abuser May Lie & Manipulate Anne: Then I say to this therapist, she doesn’t need to worry about why he’s lying. The lying in and of itself is dangerous, and she needs to be shielded from being lied to. All she needs to understand is the type of character he has. That this was emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. And he’s continuing to do it. So I go back to the safety issue. Because like, you’re still not getting . Like, are you going to get it in this interview? What is a therapeutic disclosure? She says, “I think the disclosure is important, because one person has knowledge and information about the relationship that the other doesn’t.” Absolutely, but do you think someone who is hiding something on purpose, who has for years. Who is now being forced to do it by will be like, okay, I’m going to do it now. Like, no, this is just an opportunity for more of it. So the therapist said, “This is a rebalancing of the information” and I’m like, no, it’s not. That is not what is happening. It is not a rebalancing of the information. If they’re going to continue to manipulate and lie through the whole process. So I never really got anywhere. We just talked in circles. And then here was the second question we had from our community. Why is the couple involved in a disclosure? Isn’t that couple therapy and couple therapy is counter-indicated when there’s abuse. And the therapist was like, I would never want clients to go to couples therapy when there is abuse involved. Uh, it’s all abuse. And you were working with the couple to do the disclosure. What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? Grooming During It Anne: Like can we put two and two together here? What is a therapeutic disclosure? It’s not necessarily couple therapy, but she is involved. She is talking about what she needs and wants. She’s telling the therapist things that the therapist will tell him. There is some communication. This is definitely a couple endeavor. I don’t ever hear of addicts doing disclosures completely by themselves. Without their wife being involved. That might be the only scenario where this might work. If he went in completely by himself, went to therapy all by himself, his wife was not involved. But then wouldn’t he be like, I’m going to tell the truth. So we wouldn’t even need therapy. So I asked her specifically, aren’t you concerned about grooming that’s taking place during this disclosure process or during this time of therapy? That’s not considered “couple therapy,” but basically it is because the therapist is in communication with both people. Sometimes they’ll meet together. And she said, “I’ve never seen it from a grooming perspective.” There are a few individuals who learn a little bit. And then they use it against their partner. And at Betrayal Trauma Recovery we say that almost exclusively. So the fact that she thought it was just a few people and we’re like, um, this is on a like grand scale that this happens. So then I talk more about grooming and I talk about empathy scripts. The Problem With Empathy Scripts Anne: So, what I’ve seen with men’s programs, even abuse programs. The therapist will be like, Okay, you don’t know how to be empathetic. So I’m going to help you learn what to say. But because they’re not genuinely empathetic, the therapist is like, well, I’m going to teach them. And they’ll just have to act like it until they become it. That sounds okay in theory. But in real practice, if they are not empathetic, they are not safe. If you’re in a room with someone who genuinely does not care about you at all. They’re not concerned about your emotional safety, your physical safety. They don’t care. They just want to exploit you and groom you. Them grooming you better with an empathy script is extremely dangerous. Because then they sound better. They can manipulate you more. So I brought this up, and the therapist said empathy scripts. Wow, I haven’t heard of that before. Then she said, “The way I look at it is if he comes home and uses the words I gave him or taught him, I always say, this is a good thing. Now I assume his intentions are true and his intentions are good. Because he’s trying new skills, and doesn’t have his own language yet.” So do you see the problem here? If he doesn’t have the ability to be empathetic, he’s mimicking it. He may use that and concentrate on what is a therapeutic disclosure to groom. She assumes he’s trying to connect. But maybe he’s not. Maybe he’s like, okay, I’ve got to check all these boxes to continue to exploit the situation. https://youtu.be/FvIlEiaGPY8 Observing Genuine Change Anne: So then I asked her, how do you tell the difference between practicing a genuine new skill he wants, or is he using this to manipulate her? And she said, trust is built over time, which is true. And then she said, let’s sit back and watch. Which I also agree with. So why not just sit back and watch from the beginning? Why teach him all the empathy scripts? What is a therapeutic disclosure? Why have him write out a big thing about his disclosure and all the lies? Is it just because you want them to spend a ton of money on therapy? Like you can sit back and watch without all that. In fact, instead of putting yourself in harm’s way—to be lied to—you can observe at a safe distance from the beginning, and not spend any money to know if he’s safe or not. All right, another question from a community member. What is a therapeutic disclosure? She asked, Why do some therapists not include the state of the family finances in the full disclosure? This is a very important piece of information for a woman to have. The therapist says, “That is something that, I’ll say, unless a partner brings it up I will forget to ask that. It’s not on the top of my brain.” So if abuse is not on the top of the therapist’s brain, do you see how they’re not going to identify the abuse? And then the therapist says, I don’t know that it’s forgotten on purpose. I’m just not sure it’s on the top of our to-do list when we’re assessing for addiction and lies. So does this therapist think hiding money is not a lie? Because it is. What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? The Transactional Nature Of It Anne: What is a therapeutic disclosure? Then I asked the therapist. Are there any abuse issues you have found helpful for women to ask about in the disclosure? And she said, no, she didn’t think so. And that she just saw it as a data exchange. Which confirms my theory about couple therapy or therapy in this instance. When it comes to abuse, he is basically facilitating his transactionship. That he’s like, I’m going to check all these boxes. I’m going to write out a big document where I can craft a narrative that paints me as a victim. And if I do these things, she’ll let me back in the house. And the therapist is like, yep. Check, check, check. Sounds right, using the empathy scripts. We’re good to go. But he actually is still that exploitative person. And he used that whole process as a transaction. So the fact that she’s like, this is just a data exchange. She even uses the word exchange, which was super alarming. All right. Another question from the community. The question from the community is, do you have any tips on how a spouse or former spouse who is not getting a disclosure moves forward? All she said basically was that it’s very hard when you don’t get the answers and don’t get the information you need. And that’s going to take a lot of time and coaching to come to grips with, she actually said coaching. Which I thought was interesting. But she’s not acknowledging that even with the disclosure process, you’re still not going to get all the information. All you’ll get is a bunch of checked boxes and a document that he’s carefully crafted. That’s it, that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true. Tips About Disclosures Anne: What is a therapeutic disclosure? Prepping for a therapeutic disclosure sometimes takes six months, a year or two years of going to therapy once a week. And a victim often goes to therapy, maybe not once a week, but often to be part of this process. While he takes all this time to manufacture the narrative. That seems absolutely dangerous. And a waste of time and money. I do have some tips about it, and I will share them with you now. I want you to think about what you know, so rather than going with your abuser to addiction therapy. Take one hour. Get out a pen and paper. And sit down at your kitchen table. And list all the things that you know. So for me, it would have been, I know he leaves the house at 10:00 PM, and I don’t know where he goes. And he gets home at like one in the morning or two in the morning. And I don’t know where he’s been. I’ve never been able to get a straight answer, I know that. I know that he screams in my face. And I know he’s punched a few walls. I know that he doesn’t make sense. I know that he has lied to me about this, this, this, and this. So write all the things that you know. I’m not sure why they would take two years to force a known pathological liar to tell the truth. When they could just say, you already know. Let’s focus on what you know. The Issue With Polygraphs Anne: Now once you have everything you know written down. Compare that to what abuse is, and then you’ll answer, is he abusive? Observe over time to see what his character is. And that’s all you need to know. When you know who he is, because you can see him clearly. Then you’ll feel confident in your choices. But if you can’t see him clearly, it’s hard to be confident about your choices. What is a therapeutic disclosure? Women who are going through the therapeutic disclosure process are having a hard time because they’re still exposed to all that manipulation. Here’s the last question from our community members. She asked how accurate are lie detector tests? There are many addicts who won’t do them because they say they’re not accurate. Do you use them in your practice? If so, can you debunk misunderstandings about their accuracy and effectiveness in re-establishing trust in relationships? So I know a lot of women whose husbands have done disclosures and had polygraphs. And they’ve said they were helpful. So if they have been helpful to you, I’m glad they worked for you. This therapist said, she likes polygraphs and lie detectors. So she uses them in her practice. She claims they have an 80% accuracy rate. And then she said in my world, that’s better than not knowing. And I’m like, if it’s only 80% accuracy, you still don’t know. So it’s not better than not knowing, because it’s the exact same thing. Again, the reason why I don’t like polygraphs is still, the focus is on trying to get him to tell you something. Rather than having confidence in yourself and what you already know. What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? Relying On Personal Observations Anne: Anytime we’re trying to protect ourselves from his abuse by trying to get something from him. What is a therapeutic disclosure? Or having someone else get it through his brain, like clergy or a couple therapist or an addiction recovery specialist. That is how the abuser will manipulate you. The thing about polygraphs that makes me nervous is they might tell the truth about the questions that the polygrapher is asking. But there’s so much that we wouldn’t know. I’m a woman of faith. If you’re not, you’re welcome here. But just for my own faith perspective. I don’t think there is any human earthly ability to genuinely detect if someone is lying, other than through observing them. Also I don’t think there’s a way to force them to tell the truth. I think God created this earthly life with that scenario, because it’s part of our earthly test. I think the only person who knows the truth is God. And so, I would prefer to turn to God to pray to feel the spirit, and then observe from a safe distance to know. That’s a safer situation. Because it focuses on what you know, and what God is telling you. Rather than rely on anything the abuser is saying, or someone he is manipulating, like a therapist or clergy is saying. This therapist, this is a direct quote. She says, “The thing about the polygraph, I really want to make sure folks understand, is that it’s not a statement of truth.” I’m reading this word for word. She said, “It’s not a statement of truth. It’s what he says is true.” And then she gives a confusing example that didn’t make any sense. I couldn’t make heads or tails of it. Therapist’s Views On Polygraphs Anne: And then she says this, “The polygraph is only checking what he thinks to be true. It doesn’t check his memory. It doesn’t check if he’s forgetting, it doesn’t check if his memory is wrong. So that’s an important piece that partners need to know before they go in. So, if he says this is everything and passes the polygraph, there are so many times when by virtue of exploring, investigating, or researching the data. She’s referring to all the months he spends crafting his narrative about. Apparently, “all the addiction acting out.” Okay, quoting her again now. “So he goes into a polygraph and passes. And then the next night, the victim will say, wait, what about this? And the addict will say, oh, I forgot about that.” So she is saying I use polygraphs, but a lot of the time. The truth isn’t included. And then she says this. “This is not them manipulating. This is them remembering one more thing.” So they always have some excuse, apparently according to a C-SAT to not tell the truth, I guess. That just sounds like chaos and pain. What is a therapeutic disclosure? So then I tell her a few examples of women who came to Betrayal Trauma Recovery and told us their disclosure horror stories. One of them, a man went in to do a polygraph and he passed. But the things that he said were true, she knew were not true. And the therapist said, well, he passed the polygraph, so he’s great. I don’t know why you don’t believe him. It was just a nightmare for her. The Chaos Of Incomplete Disclosures Anne: And I talked about that, and the therapist said, “Sometimes the guy is not yet out of his layers of denial enough that he’s seeing the full picture.” I think it’s more that he’s manipulating on purpose. That he’s good at lying and manipulating. And then she said, “but any disclosure is better than none.” Basically saying that even if it’s all abuse and a mess, and he’s saying certain truths in a tactical fashion to manipulate the whole situation. That’s better than not being abused. I disagree. What is a therapeutic disclosure? I don’t think any disclosure is better than none. because the disclosure in and of itself is just abuse the whole time. I think no disclosure is better than any disclosure at all. So then in the end I asked her, is there anything else you want to share about disclosures? And she says, “I think your community is amazing and that you’re doing a great job.” That’s nice of her to say that, even though now I’m like throwing her under the bus. And the reason why I didn’t want to do her voice is because I have no intention of harming anyone’s reputation, but I want to educate you about the dangers of disclosures. What she wanted to say at the end was that she knows that women in our situation want to know the truth. They want to know exactly what happened. And then she said, and sometimes we need to break the disclosure into two pieces. Get the safety items taken care of immediately. What Is A Therapeutic Disclosure? Final Thoughts Anne: Uh, that’s like 10 minutes after she said you have to observe and wait to know if they’re safe. You can’t get any safety items taken care of immediately. That’s not how safety works. You have to observe from a safe distance for a long time to see what their actions are. So I don’t even know what she means when she says get the safety items taken care of immediately. That’s just not a thing. She’s not only contradicting herself, she’s also showing that she doesn’t understand how safety works. And then she says, if they can wait a little longer, it will take a lot of time. And if you’re more patient, it’s going to get better. So she assumes you can create safety immediately. Then you need to take a lot of time to see if he’s safe, almost in the same breath. That doesn’t make sense to me. So, what is a therapeutic disclosure? All right now, I’m going to talk about what you should do, instead of asking for a therapeutic disclosure. I know that in your desire to have a therapeutic disclosure, couple therapy or get clergy to help him. You are resisting the abuse. You’re doing everything right. You’re trying to stop this, because you want a safe place for your family. So you’re doing amazing. You’re doing everything you’re supposed to do. This is not your fault, and this is not your problem. This is the problem of addiction therapists who don’t know anything about abuse, who are putting women in harm’s way. That has nothing to do with you. Educating Yourself About Abuse Anne: What is a therapeutic disclosure? Instead of doing a therapeutic disclosure, the number one thing is to educate yourself about abuse, so that you can start seeing the truth of your situation. You might find that he’s not as abusive as you thought. You might find out that he’s really abusive. But getting educated about abuse will help. Number two, determine your husband’s true character from your own observations. That’s why I created The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop . It takes you through step-by-step how to observe from a safe distance. You could still be in your home. This doesn’t necessarily mean you have to move out to observe from a safe distance. It gives you strategies to do this, whether you’re in the home or even if you’re divorced, they work no matter what. So that you determine if he has a safe character from what you know, and you don’t have to rely on him for any information whatsoever. Getting The Right Support Anne: And then the third is to get the right support from people who understand abuse. That could be a group at your local domestic violence shelter. It could be a therapist who understands abuse, who does not know your husband. Who will not talk to your husband. Who’s not going to have anything to do with him. It could be our online Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions . You don’t need to worry about what is a therapeutic disclosure. Or scheduling an individual session with one of our coaches . But getting the right support so that you’re protected. Because anyone who talks to an abuser will be manipulated. So that puts you in a dangerous situation, because you’re trying to see the truth. You’re trying to see him for who he really is. So you don’t need him manipulating any more people. He’s already manipulating you. To get more information about The Living Free Workshop click this link.…

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Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? Penny’s Take 32:17

21 days ago32:17

32:17

Hidden abuse is characterized by lies and manipulation, and it causes trauma that’s hard to recognize. To discover if you’re experiencing any of the 19 types of hidden abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz . This episode follows Penny’s Story How to Start to Heal From Emotional Abuse – Penny’s Story Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? – Penny’s Take (THIS EPISODE) What Is Hidden Abuse? One of the biggest obstacles in healing from hidden abuse is understanding what’s happening to you. The constant barrage of lies and manipulation from the abuser can make it incredibly difficult for women to see the reality of their situation. Gaslighting, a common tactic, can distort a woman’s perception of reality, making her doubt her judgment and experiences. Traditional therapists, clergy, and even well-meaning friends and family may not recognize hidden abuse for what it is. Barriers To Discovering Hidden Abuse: Lack of Understanding: Many women fail to recognize lies, pornography use, and infidelity as forms of emotional and psychological abuse. Misguided Strategies: Conventional advice focuses on improving communication and forgiveness rather than educating about abuse and implementing safety strategies. Isolation: Feeling misunderstood leads to social withdrawal, making it harder to seek support. Being Dismissed: Without a supportive network that acknowledges abuse, women begin to question their experiences and feelings. Stigma: Fear of judgment and the stigma of “giving up on the relationship” or not being a good wife prevents women from seeking emotional safety. Guilt and Shame: Self-blame (or being blamed by the abuser) stops women from reaching out for help. Trying to Fix Yourself: Believing the problem lies within themselves keeps women from finding emotional safety. Confusion: Manipulation tactics like gaslighting cause confusion and self-doubt. Entrapment: Continued manipulation leaves women feeling trapped. Pressure to Reconcile: Cultural and religious norms prioritize preserving the marriage over individual well-being. When You Go For Help, But They Don’t Identify Hidden Abuse If you’ve tried to figure out what’s going on and you haven’t been able to feel more emotionally safe, there is help. The Free Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast helps women learn more about how to spot hidden abuse. Healing From Hidden Abuse IS Possible If you’re struggling to heal the trauma from hidden abuse, consider attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY and take the first step toward a brighter, healthier future. Transcript: Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse Anne: Penny is back on today’s episode. You can find her story in an episode called How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse, Penny’s story. We wanted to talk about the aftermath of emotional abuse, how it’s misunderstood by people in general, and how to face that. So welcome back, Penny. Penny: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Anne: So this type of hidden abuse where you don’t have someone charged with domestic violence. Why do you think it’s so hard for people to understand what it takes to heal trauma from hidden abuse? Penny: Yeah, I think like you said, they don’t see any bruises, scars, or black eyes. We want to fit in and be accepted. We don’t want to be different. And so we look normal on the outside, but the inside is where the pain, results, and leftover baggage from emotional abuse is. Things like fear, anxiety, and unsureness. Am I doing the right thing? Am I saying the right thing? And so this kind of stuff lingers with a person for a long time, or at least in my case, a very long time. And still does, even though I’ve been working on recovery for decades. Anne: Yeah, the lack of self confidence is due to emotional abuse, because that was the purpose of the emotional abuse. This is why it’s so important to find a betrayal trauma support group. For years, someone intentionally undermined your sense of self, and also purposefully undermined your, I call it a sacred internal warning system, where you know something’s wrong. Rebuilding Self-Identity Anne: You’re trying to resist something that’s harming you. You don’t have the words to describe it. You’re going to the person who is harming you and telling him, “You’re harming me”, but he already knows. He knows he’s exploiting you. So he takes that as a cue, “Okay, I need to undermine her sense that something’s wrong.” Otherwise, I’m not able to exploit her.” So it doesn’t help to share your feelings with him. He purposefully erodes your sense of self over time. And when you’re safe from the abuse and not exposed to it anymore, rebuilding that sense of self is such a process. Penny: Part of the emotional abuse I was put through was with my stepmother when I was a child, and it carried with me to my young adulthood when I married early. My stepmother told me constantly, you’re dumb, you’re stupid, you’re worthless, you’ll never amount to anything. So, of course, I had a low opinion of myself going into adulthood. Even though on the outside, you may not have seen that. It was trauma from hidden abuse. And so when I married young and married a partner who tried to control me and told me that I was in sin. Because the pastor told him that I was in sin, he wouldn’t listen to me. There was nothing to talk about, and I was wrong. And as soon as I repented, we would be back to normal, and all would be fine. And I think it was pressure to have me confess to something, because I was too strong willed for this particular church and this particular pastor. I was too questioning. And wasn’t as docile as they wanted women to be. Societal and Religious Scripts That Hide Abuse Penny: And they actually taught that women should submit to husbands, that they should glorify God by glorifying their husbands. This is when biblical submission becomes abuse . So anything I said or did that wasn’t according to the pastor or my husband’s wishes was considered wrong. And I was told this constantly. So, when I left that abusive situation finally at 32, I questioned everything I did and said. Because my whole life, my childhood, my young adulthood, my early 20s. I was told I was wrong and my thinking was wrong, and who I was wasn’t good enough. The trauma from hidden abuse doesn’t go away overnight. And it takes a community. In my case. I moved far away and left the church. I stopped practicing that religion, and I surrounded myself with people who were smarter than me. That liked me and accepted me for who I was. And here’s an example of how I rebuilt it. One of my friends said, Penny, you should apply for this job. We have an opening at my firm. This woman was college educated, and I wasn’t, and she worked in finance, which I hardly knew what that meant. And she said, “You should apply to this job.” And I said, oh no, I can’t. I’m too stupid. And she said, Penny, you’re not stupid. You’re smart, and we’ll train you. You should apply. Guess what? I applied and they hired me over 30 or 40 other resumes that they had on their desktop. I saw a stack of resumes. Realizing Self-Worth Penny: So I knew, wait a minute, maybe my stepmother, ex-husband and pastor, maybe they were all wrong. And that’s how I slowly started rebuilding my life, surrounding my life with people who believed in me and held up a mirror to me that said, “You’re not stupid, you’re not ugly, dumb, or worthless. You are able, and here’s the proof.” And then I started college. I put myself through community college, and I started getting A’s and B’s, and the teachers started calling on me in the classroom. They held me up as an example of here’s some good thinking, here’s a person who read the work, or here’s the person who gets this idea. And slowly over time, and I’m talking decades, with the help of friends, holding up a mirror to me and showing me who I was. I started to change my opinion of myself. But it took a long time, work, and struggle and pain. Because those old thoughts and those old scripts still played in my mind. Anne: One thing I want to point out to victims is that exploitation is such a huge part of trauma from hidden abuse. It is abuse in that they want something from you, your labor, your admiration. They want you to cook them dinner, have sex with them, or go to a party with them. They want something from you. So instead of caring about you, they care about what they can get from you. His Lies & Manipulation Will Always Be Hidden Abuse Anne: And because of that, anyone who hears, you’re not good at this. If we knew what was happening, the best defense is to say, in a strategic way. I actually teach this in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop . Is to say something like, oh, you’re right. I bet you don’t want to be around somebody like me. That makes sense. Then leave. Then they’re like, wait, no, you can’t go. We know exploitation is the issue, because if they think so poorly of us, why would they want to be around us? Why do they not want us to leave when we say, oh, okay, we’re going to leave? Suddenly they’re like, you can’t leave. And then they want to stop you from leaving by being even more abusive, which also doesn’t make sense. If you weren’t capable, powerful and talented, they wouldn’t have anything to exploit from you. I think that’s the thing they’re trying to hide. I think they’re thinking she’s capable, smart, and awesome. If she finds out how capable she is, how smart she is. She’s not going to want to stay here. So I’ve got to hide that from her, because I want to use her talents for myself. Heaven forbid, if she used her talents for her own self and her own life. Do you think your step mom was exploiting you? Penny: I absolutely do. She was handicapped, crippled and in pain. My father was no help to her at all. He didn’t provide well, or help around the house. She needed me, but there was more to it than that. These people who exploit us, who hurt us emotionally, psychologically and physically. In her case, she was bitter and angry. Exploitation By Family Members Penny: Now that I’m a much older person and look back on it, she was angry at herself. She married my dad, who was a complete loser. Her parents warned her. Her parents said, don’t marry this guy. He’s a liar. They saw through him. She didn’t. Or she did it anyway, because she wanted to get out of her house. They not only exploit us for our labor, in her case house cleaning, babysitting, and chores. We become their punching bag, because there’s nobody else to defend us. She knew my dad was never home. So she did it when he wasn’t home, of course, and when he came home late at night, was drunk. She had hours, she had all day until 8 or 9 at night to take advantage of me and create trauma this abuse was hidden from everyone else. They break us down and make us feel small to exploit us for our labor or whatever they want from us. Because if we’re smarter than them, yes, we will leave. And eventually I did when I was old enough and had the wherewithal. But I couldn’t leave at 8, 9, 10 or 11. I had no idea where to go or how to do it. Anne: Why do you think it’s so hard for other people to see this type of trauma from hidden abuse? When a victim is either in it or healing, and they might blame her. Or say something like, you’re just bitter or you need to move on, or why can’t you get over it? Even when you’re out of it. You’re not married anymore, for example, I’m talking about the universal you. Penny: Yes. Anne: A victim is not in the relationship anymore. She’s relatively safe. Healing From Hidden Post Separation Abuse Anne: Most of us experience post separation abuse . I was abused after my divorce for eight years through my ex’s messages about our children. So most women deal with post-separation abuse. And that’s why you know, we’re not “moving on” because the abuse is right then, like it happened today. He wrote me an abusive message and lied about me today. But in terms of women who are healing trauma from hidden abuse, and maybe in a stage where they need to talk about it. Or they’re trying to process what happened, and bystanders say things like. You need to move on, or why can’t you just forgive, or give your power away? Or any of these like super hurtful things, because they don’t understand that she is healing from this type of trauma. Penny: Part of it is that for people like you and myself, and those who have experienced hidden abuse. We get how deep and painful those wounds are, and how they don’t go away. And those fortunate enough to not have that happen to them, they don’t get it. They really don’t. That’s one of the reasons why we need somebody to talk to that will validate us and help us heal. And give us a safe place where we can talk about the everyday nightmares and fears that come up in routine life. Our friends, it’s quite possible they just don’t have the capacity. And someday they will. When Therapy Makes Things Worse Penny: One of the reasons to read memoirs that may be different than your life is so that you can learn what other people have to go through to survive and to succeed. I mean, that’s why I read memoirs and I think that’s how I learn about other people and how that happened to them. Anne: Reading is so valuable. You can get inside someone’s head in a way that you can’t from, like a movie or other experience. To develop compassion for others. But I also think that’s why it’s so important to ensure you’re connected with other women who understand. That’s why we do The Betrayal Trauma Recovery daily Group Sessions and Individual Sessions . Because everybody at Betrayal Trauma Recovery has been through it. We all totally get it. Even a good therapist who hasn’t been through it will have a different take. Than someone who has been a victim who understands hidden abuse on that deep personal level. What it’s actually like. Because we’ve had so many women come to us who have gone to therapy, and the therapy actually made the situation worse. Because they didn’t understand that she was resisting the abuse the entire time. In your story, if you haven’t heard it again, her episode is called, How to Start to Heal from Emotional Abuse, Penny’s story . There’s a part, Penny, where you move out into the country. And you did that as an act of resistance. You thought, maybe it will improve our marriage if I do this. Maybe I can make things work. The same thing with the church. But some therapists might say, why did you do that? If you knew things were so bad and didn’t like him, why did you move away? Safety Strategies To Protect Yourself Anne: And the answer is I’m resisting, I’m trying to improve things. I realize it did not improve things, but my intent was to improve things. Same thing with women who are being lied to and yelled at. They might have sex with their husband, for example, and a therapist might say, why did you do that? And it’s because I thought if I did, he would not be mad at me anymore. Penny: Nobody wants to be abused. Nobody wants to be exploited. We just don’t realize, especially if you’re stuck there financially and have children. It’s hard to leave if you’re financially dependent. And they make us emotionally dependent. It’s not your fault. If you’re a victim. Anne: They’ve done a lot of damage, but I think even if it’s not a therapist, just people around saying something like, why didn’t you do this? It’s just so not helpful. Penny: Not helpful. It’s actually hurtful, because then it makes you feel like something was wrong with you for not doing more. I don’t think you had a choice. Anne: As I interview victims experiencing hidden abuse, it’s interesting. Because I’m asking questions like, and then this happened, or tell me about what you were thinking? And that’s not to victim blame or say they did something wrong. But to help other victims realize that this thought process that all of us go through is common, and that they’re not doing anything wrong. They are actually doing what anyone in this situation would do. Another point to make is the “right” thing to do, for example, stand up for yourself. Which you would think would work is not the solution. Winning Arguments Doesn’t Uncover Hidden Abuse Anne: Your background is that you had a low opinion of yourself due to your stepmother’s abuse. In my case, I had strong self esteem. And I thought I was super smart. And so I would fight my abuser and be like, what? No, you don’t have this right. And I would usually win our arguments. And he was confused, and he would say things like, “Wait a minute. How are you winning this argument? I went to law school.” My ex is an attorney, and I would say, “because you don’t make any sense.” And the reason why I would say that is because he wasn’t making any sense. Because he wanted to either exploit me or do something terrible for our family. And he was trying to give me like a bogus reason. This will be good for our family, because we’ll have this awesome rally car in our driveway, and it will make our neighbors think we’re cool. Something like that. And I was like, what are you talking about? You are not making any sense. But the reason why I bring this up is that so many women are actually confident and don’t have a low self-esteem. But it’s not keeping them from being exploited or abused, because fighting with the abuser also doesn’t actually stop the abuse. Penny: Right. Anne: Then you just end up in an argument. Sometimes it ends with you just giving up. In my case, I didn’t give up. So our arguments would last a long time, until basically he would pretend to give up. And then, like literally 10 minutes later, that rally car would be in our driveway. That’s just a metaphor. You know what I mean? When You Can Finally See The Hidden Abuse Anne: So that’s what’s really hard for women too, because I think inside of ourselves, we’re thinking maybe if I would have been quieter, maybe if I hadn’t asked so many questions, maybe if I hadn’t stood up for myself more, what if I had done this or that, would it have changed things? And the answer is no, they’re going to choose to do this no matter what. Penny: Yep, all of us, I think, are taught as young girls to believe in the happily ever after. And most of us take our marriage vows seriously. I did. And so I couldn’t fight, because I was under the dictate of women submit to their husband. So I could try to express my view, but it didn’t carry any weight whatsoever. And I just had to live with it until it reached a point when I realized I can’t be here anymore. This is not who I am. This is not where I belong. The church is asking me to do stuff that I don’t want to do. My husband, I no longer respect him or love him. If standing up for yourself or fighting will get you emotionally hurt. It’s time to step back and say, you know what, I made a mistake, and it’s okay to make mistakes. I didn’t have all the information. I did not know who he was. He didn’t show me who he really was. But now that I know, and I don’t feel comfortable, I feel exploited and have trauma from hidden abuse. It’s time for me to step back, keep my mouth shut. Until I can find a plan, because that’s how you stay safe. You have to stay safe for yourself and your children until you can make a plan. Living Free Workshop Strategies Help You SEE Hidden Abuse Penny: And that means find community, find help, whatever it takes to successfully extract with the least amount of trauma. Anne: Absolutely, and that’s why I wrote The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop . Because in my experience interviewing all the victims I’ve interviewed over the years, over 300 on the podcast and in person. In our efforts to resist this trauma from hidden abuse, we’ve all tried different things, but it usually falls into two categories. https://youtu.be/8Fd34dtRiRY Either we’re trying to stay safe by keeping our head down, thinking that if we do what he says, it will get better. Or we’re trying to fight it. That’s not right. You can’t do this to me. You need to go to therapy. I’m gonna explain this to you. Those are the two categories that resistance falls under, but it could fall under any form of resistance. But because neither of those things work, the victims need safety strategies. What safety strategies do is they enable you to resist in a way that you’re not doing what he wants, so he can’t exploit you. But you’re also not fighting him, so he can’t fight back, really. And so it’s this interesting middle place. Where it took me so long to figure it out is because I could not figure it out. Eight years post divorce with I’m still experiencing hidden abuse. He’s writing me messages almost every day about our children, medical neglect, all kinds of things going down. I try to go to the court to say, hey, this is what’s happening. Please stop this. He got more custody due to that court case, and things just got worse. And so I prayed and developed these strategies, and they worked. And now I have full custody of my kids. Penny: That’s great. Education Is A Pathway To Seeing Hidden Abuse Anne: So I think having safety strategies is important, but many people don’t understand that. They think, oh, everything would be fine between you and your ex. If you just take him seriously or, and it’s like. That’s not what’s going on here. It’s so much more. Penny: I think it’s important to surround yourself with people who think highly of you and support you. Because the people who say those things again don’t get it. And it’s not helpful to hear. When you, even if you had left sooner, or done something different, you did the best you could. Nobody submits to abuse willingly, nobody. And so those people just don’t get that. And it’s not helpful. Anne: In your healing, I love that getting more education was part of your healing process. Can you talk about how your college education helped you heal? Penny: It helped in many ways. One, I was a waitress, right? I was financially at the bottom of the food chain. I couldn’t work enough hours in one place to make enough money to live in San Francisco at the time. It was expensive. So I worked two or three jobs at a time to make enough money to pay rent and have groceries and stuff. I was much older than the people around me. I was living in a roommate situation with somebody five years younger than me. And all these people had college degrees, and the people I lived with were pursuing a graduate degree. They had what I looked at as cool and interesting jobs. So I said to myself, I need what they have. I need a college degree. And I started going. Going To College Builds Self Esteem Penny: And so it did two things for me. Number one is I vowed never again to depend on a man to support myself. I didn’t like living in a roommate situation, I wanted my own home that nobody could take away from me. Because now this was two homes, one I left home at 16. I ran away from home, so that’s one home lost. And second, I left my marriage and left my home and everything in it to my husband, my ex husband. So that was two homes I lost, and I vowed I would never lose another home. So the college degree, first of all, as I started accruing classes, I could only take two or three classes at a time. Because I worked during the day and went to school at night. I started getting A’s and B’s. Going to college built my self esteem. And I went to school with other adults who were also working during the day and going to school at night. Everybody had a different story. Some people were immigrants. Some people just didn’t have the money to go to school during the day. They were married, and now they’re going back to college. So it boosted my self esteem and my value, my thinking about how smart I was. And number two, I was able to work in finance with a college degree, which is a rewarding career that allowed me to make enough money to own a house. And eventually, I remarried and have a partner who shares expenses with me. But had that not happened, I could maintain this lifestyle on my own. And so that was my goal. Balancing Education & Responsibilities Penny: And it created the college degree, created financial independence and huge self-esteem for me. And since then, got a master’s degree. And so again, graduating for a second time is huge. It’s a huge honor, thrill, and achievement. And I’m proud of that. It took a lot of work. It took a lot of time, sweat, loss of sleep, and loss of money, right? Because college costs money. It wasn’t free. I also paid for it out of my own income, as opposed to taking out loans, which was pretty important nowadays because student loans can really create financial problems in the future. Anne: That’s wonderful. For women who doubt themselves, they’re listening to this podcast and thinking, great, good for you, Penny. You did this. But I’m never going to do that. I have kids, they’re little, or I have this going on. And what type of encouragement might you give them? Penny: I would say yes, I was lucky in that or unlucky. I was unable to bear children. I didn’t have children when I went through this. So that was the good luck, bad luck, right? Bad luck. I couldn’t have children. And also good luck, I didn’t have children. I was able to go to school at night. I didn’t have any responsibilities besides getting up for work the next morning. But I would tell them that to find a way or wait until the kids are older and all in school. And see if they can find an online program that they could take maybe one class at a time. Steps To Improve Your Life After Hidden Abuse Penny: And even if it takes you 10 years to graduate college, if you can do one class at a time. And start accruing credits and grades, A’s, B’s and C’s, and improve the C to an A and B to an A. You’ll start feeling such a boost of self-esteem and pride. And say to yourself, I’m a quarter way through college. I’m a halfway through college. I’m three quarters of the way, or even a certificate. Like maybe some colleges offer like certificates. That’s maybe an 18 month program for, I don’t know, dental hygienist or nurses aid or something like that. Some certificates then allow you to move up the food chain financially and get a respectable position. Maybe in a large organization that provides benefits. So you might have to shelve it now if you have little children dependent on you and can’t afford daycare. But when they get to school, you could do that. And I think you could also go to your community and say, Hey, can we do a trade? Can you watch my kids this night so I could go to class? And I’ll watch your kids that night, so you can go to bingo, right? So there’s always a way to do it. It gets easier when the kids get older, I think. But make it your goal, set your mind on it, and don’t stop until you have that goal. Your certificate, your associate’s degree, or your bachelor’s degree. Anne: And even if it’s not school, like you said, like a radiologist tech or something like that, or just a job, even if it’s not school. Believing In A Better Future Anne: I think the thing that breaks my heart the most is when victims feel like, and for good reason. They can’t do anything about their situation. And it’s a fine line between victim blaming, which we do not do here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, and letting victims know that having experienced hidden abuse is not your fault. Nothing about the situation is your fault, and it has nothing to do with you. There are things that you can do that will improve your life. They’re not going to change him. They have nothing to do with him. But you can take tiny steps. I talk about those in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop . There are tiny little baby steps that you can take that are free, that are just minute. But I think that’s why some people accidentally victim blame. Because they realize, yeah right, there’s nothing she can do to stop him from harming her or her kids. She can even get divorced, and he can continue to do that. And so how can we help her make her way to safety? And most people don’t have an answer for that. They can’t figure it out, except you need to do this differently. Rather than realizing that some safety strategies are simply because someone’s never heard it before. And they didn’t know it was possible or they didn’t feel it was possible for them. And so the thing I want to let everyone know is that there is a better life possible for you. I don’t know what that looks like. I don’t know how that’s going to come to be. But I want women to believe it’s possible. Processing What I Learned Anne: Because when women believe safety is possible, they believe they can improve their lives somehow. And believe they can heal trauma from hidden abuse and readily apparent abuse. That is when the magic happens, when they start taking steps to improve their lives. And also start taking steps to get themselves out of a situation that they absolutely did not cause and had nothing to do with them in the first place. Penny: Yep, I agree. Anne: Is there anything else you wanted to cover? Penny: I would love to mention to your listeners that I wrote a memoir of surviving both an abusive marriage and abusive childhood. And how I made a recovery, became successful, happy, and rebuilt my life. It’s called Redeemed, a Memoir of a Stolen Childhood , by Penny Lane, and available wherever you buy books. It’s inexpensive, and available at most libraries. So I’d love them to look at that, and I hope to inspire people to make some choices. And to know that I’m nobody special. I’m just a kid from Queens, a runaway from Queens, and that if I could do it, they can do it too. Anne: Yeah, thank you. And to hear her story on the podcast was amazing too. She only told a small portion of it, and hearing her whole story and how far she’s come in, her memoir would be awesome. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom accrued over the years in thinking about this. And it’s so inspiring to talk to victims who have taken something so difficult and made it into something beautiful. Encouragement To Move Forward Penny: Yeah, I think it is possible, and I want to tell your listeners that once you start making the baby steps, to stand up for yourself and change your own life. And to stand up to people who abuse you, oppress you, verbally attack you or denigrate you. You will start feeling a power and strength in your soul that you’ve never felt before. And so I encourage you to start taking those steps. Because it’s the beginning of change. Anne: That’s awesome. Thank you so much for talking with me today, Penny. Penny: You’re very welcome. I wish all your viewers well and happiness and safety…

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How To Start To Heal From Emotional Abuse – Penny’s Story 34:58

28 days ago34:58

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Is it possible to heal from emotional abuse and betrayal trauma? Everyday, brave women resist in a variety of ways. Penny shares her story of how she resisted abuse and finally was able to heal from emotional abuse. Attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session today to share your story with other women who have endured the same type of emotional and psychological abuse and begin healing from emotional abuse TODAY. This episode follows Penny’s Story How to Start to Heal From Emotional Abuse – Penny’s Story (THIS EPISODE) Healing Trauma From Hidden Abuse – What Gets In Our Way? – Penny’s Take Transcript: How To Heal From Emotional Abuse Anne: I have Penny Lane on today’s episode. She’s a writer, wife, and mother with an insatiable passion for life and books. Originally from Queens, she loves being outdoors. Cycling, hiking, traveling, and connecting to and inspiring people. She has a master’s degree in industrial and organizational psychology from Golden State University. And in her spare time, she helps underserved youth learn to read, apply to college and find jobs. Penny’s Journey Healing From Emotional Abuse And Helping Others Anne: Her book, Redeemed, A Memoir of a Stolen Childhood , she recounts how she was pressured into marriage and endured years of forced confessions, Salem style accusations, secretive disciplinary actions, and excommunication. Penny finally reached her breaking point, and we’re going to talk about her story today. Welcome, Penny. Penny: Thank you for having me. Anne: Why do you feel it’s important for you to speak out about your abuse and write this memoir? Penny: For one, I feel compelled to write it. Because I met a lot of people who have childhood trauma of different sorts and they tend to be ashamed of it. And the opposite is actually true. When we talk about it is when we begin to heal from emotional abuse, find relief, solace and community. I think it is important to write my story to remove some of the stigma involved with abuse or trauma. It will help others heal from emotional abuse as well. Anne: You were coerced into marrying your husband. Can you talk about the abuse that led to that and then also the abuse that you experienced from him? No Opportunity To Heal From Emotional Abuse From Childhood Penny: I was a 16 year old runaway when I met my husband. He was my boss. I worked at an IHOP as a waitress and he quickly saw that I was a very hard worker. He promoted me and then took me out on dates . Because I was a runaway, you know, it was basically living with a family and paying rent. I had no time to heal from the emotional abuse from my upbringing. Pretty soon he said, why don’t you move in with me? Then I was working for him and living with him. I didn’t have any friends. I didn’t have any family because I was a runaway. He started asking me to work more hours. At first I said yes, because he paid me a little bit extra and I made a lot of money waitressing. It was great. But then he wouldn’t take no for an answer. Let’s say I worked three double shifts in a row. Even though I was 16, it’s exhausting to be on your feet in a very fast moving restaurant for 12 hours, 14 hours a day. I tried to say, no. I’m too tired. Get someone else. And he’d say, this wasn’t a question. You need to get to work. Be there in five minutes or I’m coming to pick you up in five minutes. Manipulation and Control Anne: How old was he? Penny: He was six years older than me. He was 23, he left college, and was a restaurant manager for four or five years before I met him. So he was managing a staff of 30 or 40 people in a very busy, high revenue restaurant in a busy location. And he was domineering. A little while after we started dating, he started disappearing and I didn’t know where he was. The girls I worked with said, Oh, he’s got another girlfriend, blah, blah, blah. You know, I didn’t think that was true. Half of you doesn’t believe and half of you does. Religious Pressure Penny: So one time I went along with him to where he was going, because he said he was going to church. I thought, this guy gambles, drinks, curses and I didn’t think he was a very honest guy. And I didn’t think he would possibly be going to church. So I went along with him. And he had indeed gone to church. He went to a very fundamentalist, Bible believing, evangelical type church. This was in the 70’s, and it was quite emotionally wrought. The services were long and drawn out. At the end of the service, there was a call to walk the aisle, to accept Jesus as your personal savior. I wanted nothing to do with that. I thought it was totally weird. Besides, I had just run away from home. I didn’t want to belong to something else. I wanted to be free. Anne: Were you raised religious at all? Penny: No, I was born Catholic and communion at 12, under duress. I didn’t know anything. We didn’t really do anything. else. Forced Conversion Penny: So, long story short, once I went to the church, he would ask me each time he went. He went Wednesdays, Thursdays and twice on Sundays. He would just wait for me at the restaurant and say, okay, we’re going to church. I’d get in the car with him and we’d go. I wasn’t really given a choice . I went two, three weeks of this, going three or four times a week. People started pressuring me to accept Jesus and the story is very compelling. I’m sure you and your readers know this. It’s don’t you want to be loved forever? Yes, of course. Who doesn’t? Don’t you want to have a forever family? Don’t you want to have God’s love? Well, the answer to all of that is yes. I didn’t feel loved. Don’t you want to belong? Of course. I didn’t belong anywhere. Didn’t belong in my family. I didn’t have a family at the moment. So eventually I gave in to the emotional pressure of accepting Jesus and I walked the aisle Questioning Free Will Anne: At the time, did you feel like you were doing it of your own free will or at the time were you like, I don’t really want to do this, but in order to stay in his good graces, I have to do this. It’s hard to identify the effects of spiritual abuse. Can you talk about a bit of your thought process at the time? Penny: At the time I thought I was doing it for my own free will. But look, I was 17. And I was a runaway, working for this man, living with this man. I thought that he loved me. I loved him and this is what he’s doing with his life. In hindsight, I don’t know if it was really free will or if it was emotional manipulation and pressure. Because I knew that if I didn’t do this, I would have to walk away from the whole package. Leave him, my job, my living arrangement. And remember I was 17 and I didn’t know how to negotiate in the world. I didn’t know how to find an apartment or find a new job. Anne: This is also your first experience with religion. Penny: Yes, and he is my second boyfriend. I had a boyfriend while I was going through high school and I broke up with him because he wasn’t ambitious enough. Then I started working at the IHOP and I met this man. Though here’s the interesting thing that happened. It was a bait and switch. Abusive Restrictions Penny: At first it was all lovey dovey and Jesus loves you and you’re part of this forever family. But pretty soon the pastor’s wife and the other women in the church pulled me aside. And said, you can’t dress like that here. And again, I was 17. It was the seventies. We wore blue jeans, platform sandals, high heels, lots of makeup, long shaggy hair, and tight clothes. That’s what we wore, and that’s all I had. And all of a sudden, I couldn’t dress that way anymore. I had to wear skirts and I couldn’t wear makeup or wear less makeup. Anne: Only at church or all the time? Penny: Well, they talked to me about it at church. I really kind of didn’t have any other life. I worked in the restaurant, and I had a uniform. Then I went to church. We didn’t really do anything else. Because previously his life was drinking and going out to eat and drinking. We didn’t do that anymore because he stopped drinking and he stopped smoking. He didn’t pressure me outside of church, but at church I was required. And I kept arguing with the pastor and saying, you guys didn’t tell me this. Like, I don’t want to change. I like this and I liked that. It was a lot. And let’s fast forward three or four months. The pastor said, I want to meet with you guys on Friday night at my house. And so of course I was told I was off work and went to the pastor’s house and the pastor made me wait in the living room. He took my boyfriend into his study and they were gone about 10 minutes, maybe more. When he came out, my boyfriend looked very troubled. Engagement Under Duress Penny: He looked preoccupied. And he said, Penny, will you marry me? We’re living in sin and I can’t live in sin anymore. So will you marry me? He had talked to me about that before. My boyfriend had said to me like three or four visits after I got saved. He said, you know, we’re living in sin, right? I really didn’t know what he meant because I didn’t really have a concept of sin or hell or heaven, even though they talked about it at the church. I wasn’t absorbing it. Like my little 17 year old brain was looking at people and looking at clothes and looking at the guitar player and looking at the piano. I wasn’t able to comprehend that. So it meant nothing to me. And I didn’t feel guilty. Like, I hadn’t been a, what I would call a terrible sinner, right? I know now, because I’ve read the Bible, that like any sin, even jealousy is sin. At the time, I didn’t even think sleeping with your boyfriend was sin. I kind of knew it was wrong, but I didn’t equate it to sin. I didn’t feel any guilt in my heart whatsoever. However, unbeknownst to me, because he didn’t tell me yet, that my boyfriend did. He had been stealing from his boss, he had gambled, he had drank and slept around. He felt very guilty. And so he really absorbed this Christian thing and became all in from the minute he got saved. He immediately quit drinking and quit smoking cold turkey. And that wasn’t the case for me. So then we have this meeting with the pastor. Healing From Emotional Abuse While In Bible College Penny: He comes out and he says, will you marry me? Nobody twisted my arm physically, but again, I knew in that moment that if I didn’t say yes, I was out. I was out of a place to live, a job and out of the church. I thought I loved him at the time and I didn’t see a lot of dangerous signals yet. Again, I’m 17. The big thing was he didn’t beat me. So I assumed I was safe. We got engaged and we started planning a wedding. The church was very, very heavily involved. Very heavily, from the get go. I did end up finding another apartment and moving out. https://youtu.be/JOgZyAWjul8 So I didn’t live with him anymore after that. The church would talk to us about things like birth control. And again, I’m 17, and I’m thinking, Are you kidding me? If we can’t use birth control, I could have a baby a year for the next 20 years. I said, this is ridiculous. I was pushing back and I was pushing back so much that the pastor said to me, you have a rebellious spirit. We need to send you to Bible school. Increasing Pressure & Control Anne: I’ve heard this before. You have a rebellious spirit thing, Penny: So they sent me away to Bible school, literally. And you know what? I didn’t mind going because the pastor was overbearing and my then fiance, became overbearing. Because the way he looked at the world was different than the way I look at the world now. He looked at the world like the pastor said, therefore you need to do it. No free will. No your own relationship with God, even though that’s what they preach. He became like my spiritual director and enforcer. So I had to do whatever the pastor said. Whether I wanted to or not, whether I was ready to or not. And the pastor made me do some really strange things that I did not want to do. But again, under pressure from my boyfriend, here’s an example. The Bible says, children obey your parents. Well, that’s great when you’re living with your parents, maybe, but what happens if your parents beat you? So the pastor made me go back to my stepmother and ask her forgiveness for running away. Now I still had no opportunity to heal from emotional abuse from childhood, and this kind of advice compounded the problem. Anne: Even though you ran away because your stepmother was beating you. Submitting To Husband’s Abuse Penny: Beating me, mean to me, calling me names, withholding food. I was humiliated. And again I knew, if I don’t do this I have to walk away. So I did it. He even said, if she wants, you need to move back home. And I thought, you’ve got to be kidding me. I have been gone a year and a half. I have my own apartment, job and bank account. I’m engaged. Are you kidding? Nope. They weren’t kidding. So luckily, my stepmother said, no, I don’t have to move back that I would disrupt the family. I had a little sister and I’ve hurt my sister by running away. I wasn’t able heal from emotional abuse from childhood while still being abused. So luckily I didn’t have to do it, but that’s the kind of thing I mean about domineering and overbearing and making me do things. Now, as a middle aged woman, I look back and say. Why didn’t that tell me right then and there? Who’s going to be in charge of the relationship? That whatever my husband will say will be right. Not whatever I feel in my heart is right, but I didn’t see that. So I go away to Bible college for a year and it’s a wonderful, wonderful experience. Marriage & Moving Away Penny: During this time, things change at the IHOP. My husband quits and opens up a restaurant. The restaurant ends up failing. Now he’s out of a job and he’s out of money. He gets another job at IHOP, but it’s in Maryland. I’m thrilled to move away from this overbearing pastor. I finished Bible college. We get married after Bible college by that same pastor and immediately move away. Anne: And of course you would have had no idea how fundamentalism and patriarchy fuel abuse . Really quickly, how did you like Bible college? Penny: I loved it, and the reason I loved it is because it was in a beautiful, beautiful setting in upstate New York. I lived in an all girls dorm. I’ve never had friendships with girls my age before because I wasn’t allowed to. Anne: You have this good experience where you’re safe, you’re housed, have food. You’re getting an education, even though it’s something you didn’t expect. Penny: The college is a lot less focused on rules. I mean, there are rules. For instance at Bible colleges, Christian colleges in that time, I don’t know how it is today. You couldn’t wear pants. Even though it was winter, we wore long wool skirts over boots. It gets really cold in upstate. We had long coats. And there’s rules like that, but you can live with that, right? Because of the rest of it. You’re having a great time, studying and you’re going on little field trips. In the summer, you’re a camp counselor at a Christian camp. So it’s fun. It’s fun to be around other girls my age, something I’ve never had before. I graduate, we get married, we move away, I’m a New Yorker so I dress up. I’m back to wearing jeans and high heels and makeup and pretty dresses. I’m myself. Struggles With Abuse In Maryland Penny: We live in Maryland for about three years, and it’s rocky. It’s not an easy marriage because he’s domineering. Everything is his way. I feel lost but I don’t know what to do because the church teaches that divorce is sin. And further they teach that if you deliberately do something that you know is sin, like divorce. You may not even be a Christian at all, which is scary, right? Because if you’re a Christian, which I thought I was at the time, then you’re afraid of hell. You’re afraid of displeasing God. It’s a mind game. They differentiate between accidental sin, like, Oh, I fell into temptation. I committed adultery. That would be accidental sin. Anne: Which is not accidental at all. That is 100 percent on purpose. Your penis just doesn’t fly out of your pants. In this context when there is this dynamic biblical submission often becomes abuse. Penny: Right. But that’s what they teach. And I’m sure you’ve heard that before. Anne: Oh, 100%. And then what? You just trip and then you accidentally have it with, no! It’s misogynistic because it always benefits the man. The man, it’s always accidental. But women, it’s always on purpose. Penny: Right. Religious Manipulation Continues Penny: At some point, We meet up with this guy who runs a Bible study in his home. He’s in Bible college in Maryland. My then husband is an acolyte of this pastor, right? Anne: What does acolyte mean in that context? Penny: He loves this pastor and is a follower of this pastor. He thinks he’s the greatest. This pastor finally graduates from Bible college and he tries to get ordained. And he’s having a very hard time getting ordained. Which should have been a red flag, but it wasn’t. Finally, this pastor finds a sect that will ordain him. He gets assigned to some rural church in the middle of very rural Michigan in a town of 200. A church that’s been around like a hundred years. It’s a handful of old ladies that are just keeping this church alive. The pastor moves away and my husband misses him so much. He arranges a trip to visit this pastor. I think, great, it’s just a one week trip. We drive to Michigan from Maryland. We go to visit and I’m out of my element. I’ve never been in a place so rural. before. The church is weird and it’s small and I’m uncomfortable. I grew up in a city and these people are people that have never left their hometown. They’ve maybe never left the state. They’re just different. Nothing wrong with them, just different from me. So we go back to Maryland. Unexpected News Penny: I go back to work and I’m happy. I’m focused on being a good wife. I don’t think about church. We’re visiting different churches every weekend. All of a sudden the pastor who lives in Michigan, his wife calls and says, Hey Penny, I found you guys an apartment. I said, what? She said, Oh yeah, your husband told me to look for an apartment for you guys, that you guys are moving. He hadn’t asked me and he hadn’t told me. So I’m very upset because I did not want to move. I knew that place would kill me. I knew it was too weird for me I didn’t want to move, but he’s making plans. He said, listen, I’m moving. So you need to get your head around this. I’ve given my notice to my boss. We’re moving in two months and I don’t know what to do. Seeking Advice & Rationalizing Abuse Penny: And I remember talking to his, brother’s wife. So my sister-in-law, and she’s also born again, Christian, but she lives in New Jersey and she’s an independent woman. Back then I would have called myself a weak person, because I had no freedom as a child. I hadn’t healed from my childhood trauma. So healing from emotional abuse seemed daunting. I was scared and timid, and had never lived on my own. My sister-in-law, on the other hand, was a strong woman. She went into her marriage as a strong woman. She was already a Christian when she met my brother-in-law, and she kind of called the shots for her life. When she got married, for example, she said, I don’t want children. In the evangelical church, that’s huge. That’s a big no no. Because that’s your job as a woman, to be a good mother and keep house. So, I trusted her. I called her up and said, what do I do? I don’t remember exactly what she said. But she somehow, in a way that I can’t even remember, talked me into it. By saying, look, he’s your husband. This is part of God’s plan. You think you won’t like it, but God’s plan is always wonderful. And you’re probably going to like it once you get there. So I think you should go. That sort of thing. She didn’t pressure me. She didn’t threaten or ultimatum. There was no hell, nothing like that, but somehow she made it okay. I don’t remember how, probably cause I was traumatized. Struggling In A New Life Penny: So we moved and uprooted everything we knew. And it was very weird. I was very young. We got married when I was 18, three years later, I’m 21. And we moved to this place where everybody is at least 10 years older than me. And they had never been to college. The women never worked outside the home. They got married to their childhood sweethearts at 17, 18 or 19. And now they had a bunch of kids. And the area was very depressed. People didn’t have a lot of money, they literally stretched a giant jar of peanut butter week to week. It was very dependent on the auto industry, so people were needy. People were very committed to the church, because really that’s all they had. I think I’m judging here. I’m making a judgment. Whereas I always looked at things wide open. Like why aren’t we going anywhere on weekends? We lived an hour and a half from Ann Arbor and two hours from Detroit. But nobody ever went to see museums, art or theater. Nothing. I didn’t fit in. Questioning The Church Penny: And I started questioning things again. I didn’t like what was being taught. They were teaching some really weird stuff. The church becomes your authority and you have to ask the church’s permission before you do anything. Like buy a house, go on vacation or to have another baby. I was trying to have a baby at the time. And instead of encouraging me to have a baby. They were having me babysit people’s children while they went away for a few days. Kind of to teach me how hard it was to have a baby. Anne: But like, didn’t they ultimately want you to be a parent? Penny: It’s hard to say now, yes and no. But I had been trying for three years and I was not getting pregnant. Anne: Oh, maybe they’re trying to “make you feel better”. Penny: Or here’s the thing, like in the church, everybody has a gift. And wouldn’t it be convenient if I had the gift of serving and I don’t have my own children to take care of? Because then I could serve the church a lot. I could serve other people in the church. Anne: Be people’s free babysitter. Penny: Right. Struggles With Conformity Penny: Some people I get along with in the church and some people I don’t. And we typically had somebody over for Sunday dinner, or they had us over. We were supposed to fellowship and meet with people and have coffee with them. We weren’t supposed to have relationships with anybody outside the church. So none of us had friends outside the church, unless of course you had family there, which we didn’t. It ended up that you only spent time with people in the church. I was not happy, but I was doing my thing. I was doing all the reading the Bible, going to prayer, fellowshipping with the women, helping out in the church and that kind of stuff. A Wedding Trip Penny: And at some point, a cousin of mine was getting married on the East Coast and I had asked to go. Anne: You asked the church to go? Penny: I asked my husband to go and my husband went and asked the church, went and asked the pastor. Anne: Wow, that’s intense, ok. Penny: Yeah. The pastors came over and met with the pastor and the elder came over and met with me and they said, Penny, why do you want to go to this church on the East Coast? You know, I didn’t tell them the real reason. It’s boring as heck here. But I just said, My cousins, it’s fun, I haven’t been away, haven’t been back. I haven’t seen them and I want to go. Anne: Wait, why do you want to go to this church? You’re just going for like one day, right? For the wedding. You’re not like becoming a member of this other church, right? Penny: Oh, it wasn’t even at a church. It was just a wedding, a cousin’s wedding somewhere on the East coast. Right. Anne: Wow. Why do you want to go to this wedding? Okay. Penny: What they said was you pray about it. If the Lord tells you to go, that’s fine with us. Well, of course I didn’t hear voices and I didn’t hear a yay or nay. And so I decided, well, I didn’t hear no. So let’s go. So we. Packed up the car, we drove, it’s, you know, eight hour drive or something back to the east coast from Michigan. Set Backs In My Ability To Heal From Emotional Abuse Penny: We get there, we’re there for the whole weekend. We stay with cousins or grandmother, I can’t remember. And we had a great time. But as soon as we start driving, getting close to Michigan again, I start feeling this uneasy feeling in my stomach. Like, Oh, I wonder if I’m going to get in trouble for this. Sure enough, there’s a knock on the door. The day after we get back, the pastor and the elder come and they say, Penny, tell us about your trip. I look over at my husband and he’s looking at the floor. I’m like, well, we went, we had a great time. We danced, we socialized and they say, we don’t believe you. Like, what do you mean? You don’t believe me. He said, we don’t believe you had a good time. I said, I had a really good time. And he said, are you sure you didn’t just try to have a good time? I said, no. And they said, we think you’re lying. We think God told you not to go. So we think you’re lying about going and having fun. Excommunication & Husband’s Abuse Penny: So we’re going to excommunicate you. We’re going to discipline you is the word they use. Anne: Did they think you went somewhere else? Penny: No. Anne: So this is just like a huge manipulation thing. They know you actually went. Penny: My husband went with me and my husband’s in the room. Yeah. Anne: And he doesn’t stand up for you? Penny: Nope Anne: Or defend you? Penny: Nope. He defends everyone but me. As a matter of fact, he must’ve called the elders behind my back. To say, We’re back. Anne: He was abusive. We know he was abusive, even though you didn’t know it at the time, right? He’s emotionally abusive, psychologically abusive. What do you think was his abusive reason for calling the elders on you and getting you excommunicated? Penny: I think he thought that it was his job to keep me holy and keep me righteous. Therefore, anything that the pastor thought was wrong? Anne: But you hadn’t done anything wrong. Penny: That’s correct. Anne: He was just trying to put you down. I’m just trying to think of his abusive reason. He goes to this wedding with you and he sees you happy and dancing. He sees, Oh my word, she could notice that I’m abusing her and that she’s so exploited and sad. I don’t want her to recognize when she’s happy. I’m going to try and shut this down. Maybe something like that. We don’t know. I so wish I could have given you The Living Free Workshop at this point in your life, I made it so women could recognize when someone is manipulating them and help them get to safety. Isolation & Depression Further Harm My Ability To Heal From Emotional Abuse Penny: Possible. So the elder says, you’re on discipline, we’re disciplining you. Discipline means you don’t talk to anybody in the church. You don’t call them, say hi to them on the street, meet with them or come to services. You’re excommunicated. You stay home or you stay away from anybody in the church and we’ll get back to you when we think you’re repentant. So here I am, we have a tiny, tiny apartment, it’s a studio apartment and I’m an outgoing person. I’m an extrovert, and I’m left on my own. My husband leaves for work in the morning, and you can clean the whole apartment in half an hour. I wash the dishes, do the laundry, and do the shopping. I mow the lawn, and do all the stuff. Luckily I love to read. So I go to the library, but I’m heartbroken. I’m crestfallen and depressed. I stay in bed most of the day. Because this has happened to me and I don’t know how it happened. I didn’t lie, I didn’t know how to change it. So I’m powerless and stuck. Again, I don’t even think of leaving at this point, right? Because now I’m three years into a marriage, into the church. I’m a good Christian and believe what I’m taught. I believe the Bible but yet, God’s not helping me Anne: And you’re exactly where they want you. Penny: I’m depressed and I’m not eating and I’m not sleeping. Again I call my sister-in-law or my sister-in-law calls me. She must have heard about it and she calls me. And she says, Oh Penny, you know, we’re all in sin one way or the other we’re all in sin. Confession & Return Penny: So just confess to the elders that you lied and get it over with and they’ll take you back. It’ll be fine And so I say to myself, Oh my God, I don’t know why I didn’t think of that. That’s what I’m going to do. So I do it. I tell my husband, I’m ready to confess. He goes and tells the elders. A couple of days later, the elders come back to me and they come to the house and they’re all smiling with these fake smiles. Cause there’s a verse in the Bible that says that there’s more joy in heaven over the one son who comes back to the faith and the hundred non believers that convert. I don’t remember the exact verse, but it’s something like that. So they say, we forgive you. And we’re so happy. This is midweek so stay away from the church . And We’ll invite you back to the church at the Sunday service. Continued Abuse From Public Humiliation Harms My Ability To Heal Penny: And what I didn’t know, which they didn’t tell me at the time, was that when they invited me back to the Sunday service, I basically sat outside until the elders brought me in. And then they said, congregation, we have something to tell you. We have something to rejoice in. Our sister Penny has repented of her sins and she’s been in sin for a month. Thank God, praise God. She’s repented. She’s come back to us and the Bible tells us to welcome her with open arms. Well, a couple of people in the church stood up, a husband and wife team that were kind of newish to the church. They’d been there maybe a couple months. They got up and they said, this is wrong. And they got up and they walked out. Anne: Were they like, we don’t want her back? So that’s why they left? Penny: No, I think that they were upset that this happened to me. Anne: Oh, okay. So they were on your side. Good for them. Penny: Everybody else in the church was dead silent. Nobody said a word and everybody’s staring at me. I had no idea this was going to happen. In those days we sat in a circle, so a great big circle. Imagine we were in like a a ballroom. We were renting an old, old, old hotel in this town, a big giant ballroom. We’re all sitting in a circle all facing each other and everybody’s staring at me aghast. He doesn’t tell them what the sin is. Psychological Abuse Penny: So you can imagine people are thinking, was it adultery? Was it child abuse? Does she need to heal from emotional abuse? Was it theft? Is she a gambler? Is she a drinker? Does she take drugs? Nobody knew, right? Anne: I just want to pause here for a second to point out why this is happening, not necessarily to you in particular, but just in general. It’s psychological abuse to try and force someone to think that something happened when it didn’t. And then they also want to ruin someone’s reputation. It’s so hard to heal from emotional abuse when you can’t get the right help and are still being abused. So they could be like, okay, the sin was you jaywalked, but we’re not going to tell people that . And we’re just going to leave it up to everybody’s imagination in order to ruin your reputation and harm you. Wow. Penny: it was really horrific. When You Are Living In Fear You Can’t Heal From Emotional Abuse Penny: And then here’s the other thing that happens to me as a person. On the inside because I didn’t do anything wrong to begin with, and they told me I did. From that moment on I walked on eggshells every minute of every day. I could never relax because I never knew if I was doing something wrong. And I didn’t know if I was lying because if somebody said to me, how are you doing today, Penny? But really I was nervous in my stomach, but I didn’t want to say that. Then I would run back to that person and say, I’m okay, but I’m nervous in my stomach and I didn’t want to lie to you. I was constantly going back to everybody and correcting myself. I looked like a fool. Now people don’t know if they trust me. Anne: I want to point out, this is what an abuser would do to undermine your confidence to exploit you more or control you more. It is a purposeful tactic that someone would do to stop them from healing from emotional abuse. Penny: I did not know that at the time. Anne: Right. I’m just pointing that out to my listeners. So that if they’re like, Oh, emotional abuse is happening to me right now it’s impossible to heal. It is a purposeful thing to undermine someone’s confidence. Penny: this went on for another couple of years, living in fear and turmoil and insecurity. Something else happened and I was accused and disciplined again, for a very long time, for a year. I was really broken as a person, suicidal, very broken. And when it came time, the elders decided enough. Heal From Emotional Abuse By Realizing Independence Penny: They said, you either leave or you confess. I decided to leave and that meant leaving the church. I left my husband and I left the state. Clearly I was a completely broken person. I was 31 by that point. And I basically had to start life all over again. Meaning I didn’t have a job, money, degree or career. I was scared of everybody, I thought my life was over at 31. Nobody would love me and I would just be a street beggar and maybe a waitress. But that’s not what happened. Because once I was free I became a full human being . It’s been a powerful, powerful thing. Once I began to heal from emotional abuse, I became a highly successful and highly paid salesperson. I have a master’s degree and undergrad degree, am highly respected and retired early. I adopted a son, have a wonderful husband and home. It took a lot of work and it’s still work. Anne: If you could go back to that 17 year old that you were and talk to yourself when you’re working at that IHOP. What would you say to yourself? When you weren’t yet asking the question, “ am I being spiritually abused ?” Penny: I would say don’t do it. There are many people in the world. He’s not the only one. This isn’t your only job in the world. There’s many jobs in the world. You don’t need them. You’re stronger, you’re wiser, you’re smarter. You can do it on your own. Healing From Emotional Abuse And Getting Your Life Back Anne: That’s what I want to share with our listeners is I don’t know where your journey to psychological and emotional safety will take you. It’s so different for every single person. But the important thing is that you are brave and you are strong and you can do it. The abusers want you to think that you can’t heal from emotional abuse. They want you to think you’re dependent on them. They want you to think that you’re not smart or incapable. And that is not true. You are brave and strong. You are capable. When you heal from emotional abuse, you can do anything. So Penny, thank you for your story, and wish you well as you heal after emotional abuse. I appreciate you coming on today’s episode. Penny: It’s my pleasure. Thank you for having me.…

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Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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Making The Decision To Divorce – Caroline’s Story 22:40

5 weeks ago22:40

22:40

Making the decision to divorce is a challenging time for any woman who is facing her husband’s addiction or emotional abuse. Anne Blythe, M.Ed. and Caroline talk about complexities surrounding her decision to divorce, shedding light on the profound impact of her husband’s pornography addiction. If you’re struggling with the impact of your husband’s addiction, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Secret Pornography Use in Marriage Caroline’s journey began with awareness of her husband’s secret explicit online materials use, a revelation that unfolded over the course of their relationship. Initially, she had difficulty articulating the reasons behind her divorce. One critical element in Caroline’s journey is the revelation that addiction is not isolated; it often fuels other destructive and abusive behaviors. She enrolled in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to determine her husband’s true character, and began using emotional and psychological safety strategies. Seeing Red Flags “Too Late” Many victims of betrayal and abuse can identify red flags after they’re already married or pursuing separation or divorce. Often, those who don’t understand abuse will covertly blame victims for identifying red flags “too late” or choosing to “ignore” red flags. It’s important to understand that most abusers are master-manipulators and mimic healthy behaviors to lure victims in. If you are now identifying red flags, please understand that it isn’t your fault for “not seeing them sooner.” To know if you’re seeing red flags in your marriage, take our free emotional abuse quiz . Transcript: Making The Decision To Divorce Anne: I have Caroline on the podcast today. She is a Betrayal Trauma Recovery client who recently made the decision to divorce. So we’ll talk to her about her experience. Welcome Caroline. What is your response when people ask you why you divorced? Caroline: Although I knew about my husband’s addiction from the beginning, I didn’t know what that entailed. Anne : Is it a triggery experience to talk about it with people wondering why you got divorced? Caroline: It’s definitely like a panic zone, because you don’t know how people react. Some people are educated on addiction, and others believe it’s normal. So the reactions vary. It’s only been in the past few months that I feel like I can actually say the word pornography when talking about my divorce. Anne: You mentioned you knew about his use while you were dating. Or before you married. Did you see any other red flags? Caroline: As I thought about it post divorce. I was surprised at how many silent red flags in my relationship there actually were. Some of those narcissistic traits were that our dates were always extremely lavish and expensive. And it seemed he just had untapped funds from the get go, date one. He would hardly give me any time alone. And always stayed by me, knowing what I was up to, surprise visits. He would fake sick at work just to come see me. It seemed like he almost forced himself into my life. And he flattered me at the time, I thought, wow, this guy likes me. He’s so cute, he’s got all this money. He’s got a good job. But now I see it as him controlling and insecure, and kind of practicing those narcissistic traits. The Illusion Of A Perfect Partner: Love Bombing Caroline: Yeah, he was a strong member of his church until a few months before we met. And he said a lot about his inactivity in the church. He made a lot of excuses. Like how they treated him unfairly. He undermined his parents while still having them in the palm of his hand. He constantly seeks praise and validation, down to like the littlest things. If he wiped off the counter, he would say, hey look, look what I did, I wiped off the counter. Just fed off of what other people thought of him constantly. Anne: I was just thinking about my ex. He contacted some people in my life. Because he was trying to find information about filing taxes before we divorced while we separated. He said things like I love Anne so much. I need to make sure I do this for her. And how amazing he was for filing the taxes. Like he felt like he needed tons of praise for just like everyday normal things. That literally he had to do, like if he hadn’t done it, he would have been breaking the law. And it’s like, you’re not going to get a ton of praise for filing your taxes. Every person has to do that. Like, I don’t know why you’re the hero for filing taxes. Women need education about narcissistic behaviors that is super important, especially if they are making the decision to divorce. So that they can know, that was not a man being completely and totally in love with me. That is love bombing. That’s about them, not about me. This is an unsafe situation. I need to take a step back. Which is, what woman wouldn’t want to be love bombed. The Mourning Process & Boundaries Anne: We see that in romantic comedies. Our culture tells us that when you meet the right person, amazing things will happen. That amazing situation, meant for a romantic comedy, is like narcissistic love bombing. Caroline: Yeah, exactly, I really saw him and me creating a family. And becoming a mother and him becoming a father. He talked about all sorts of different things when it came to family and being a major influence and support. To his own mom, who was a widow. Many times where I saw an authentic reaction to what he was doing, sadness for what he had done. And then the next day it would be like that realization never happened. So I definitely believe he knew what was happening and what was going on. A lot of the mourning is because you do see their potential. Somebody told me during my decision to divorce, as I had many confusing and conflicting thoughts. Because you feel like such a relief, but then you miss them and you mourn the loss of that potential in that person. You can see it so clearly after spending time with that person, and it’s so hard because you want to take them by the shoulders and shake them. And tell them, hey. I believe in you, see you, hear you and love you. You’ve got all this untapped potential right there. One thing that helped incredibly with boundaries. Where before I thought of marriage as a free for all when it comes to each other’s feelings. Because well, you married him. But boundaries are good even inside a marriage to keep yourself safe. Anne: Especially when you married someone who makes sad choices and you’re making the decision to divorce. Caroline: Yes. Regrets & Lessons Learned About The Decision To Divorce Caroline: I wish I had known that addiction fuels other behaviors. I wish I had known more of the emotional and physical consequences of that addiction. I wish I had known to prioritize my needs and desires. And to have this lesser sense of urgency when it comes to getting married. That it would be okay to just take our time. I think another big thing for me was that I didn’t need to settle just because he was showing interest in me. Instead, I wish I had realized that I can have everything I want in a man and deserve the full package. Anne: At Betrayal Trauma Recovery , when we say the full package, what we mean is someone who is not abusive. Caroline: Yeah, isn’t that ironic? Anne: We’re not looking for a professional soccer player or an ex Navy SEAL, and a million dollar business. No, no, no, that’s not what we’re talking about. We are talking about a man with whom we can partner, who is not abusive. Caroline: Yeah, for sure. Just somebody that’s on the same track that I am, you know, I want a lot out of my life. Anne: So let’s talk about your age for a minute. We’ve had women on the podcast and BTR.ORG clients from all ages and situations. Caroline, how old are you? Caroline: I just turned 22. Anne: And how long were you married? Caroline: Three years almost to the day. I was 18 when I married. Anne: And no children now? Caroline: No kids. Healing Through Affirmations & Association With Others Caroline: One of the biggest things that has helped me heal through my decision to divorce is affirmations. They are posted all over my apartment, just small things that remind me of who I am and where I want to be. Divorce does not define me, or that it wasn’t a failure either. I’ve also found it super helpful in the last little bit to share my story. There are so many people my age who have been married for one to three years that are finding themselves in the same place in the neighborhood I grew up in. They’re between two years younger than me and two years older than me. There were 11 of us who are married, and six of us are now divorced. It’s been super helpful for me to reach out to them and ask how long it takes to heal from my husband’s emotional abuse and share our thoughts, feelings, and progress. And that’s been super helpful. Caroline: So six of them are now divorced. Anne: One thing I find concerning right now is that young people think that if they talk about it, they can somehow avoid it. That has not been my experience. In fact, many of the thousands and thousands of wives I’ve talked to, had many conversations with their boyfriends and fiancés about it. They users lie, conversation about it or asking the right questions will not lead us to the truth, usually. The only thing that will lead us to the truth is observing their behaviors and getting in touch with what do I need? When do I feel safe? Who am I? Being in our own recovery space, so that we can observe those unhealthy behaviors in someone else. Caroline: Yes Finding Out The Truth Though Observing Behaviors & Boundaries Anne: For example, many people think, well, if I am open and kind, and I don’t shame the person, then it will give them a better opportunity to tell the truth. I think that is the wrong way to go, because we’re still trying to “help” that person or manage that person. They literally need to be honest. Whether their wife or girlfriend is angry, happy, or sad, their honesty cannot, should not depend on the way their wife reacts. Caroline: Absolutely. Anne: And right now, when people talk about addiction, it is floating around that women have the responsibility to not be too angry. Or too shaming, or too this or that, and if they do that, great! Then he will open up, and that puts the blame of his lying on her where it does not belong. It is fully his responsibility to tell the truth, regardless of how she reacts. Caroline: Yes, for sure. Anne: Betrayal Trauma Recovery does not advocate for divorce. I did not want to make a decision to divorce. I felt strongly that I needed to set boundaries to be safe. So I set a very firm no contact boundary, and also didn’t file for divorce. I’m sure you’ve heard other people say, if you set these boundaries, you’re going to end up divorced. Like it’s your fault, rather than setting boundaries for safety. And if they still abuse you, it’s still their fault that the divorce is happening. What do you say to people who might ask you. You’re divorced now, and you went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I guess, Betrayal Trauma Recovery believes in divorce. What would you say to them? Support From Betrayal Trauma Recovery While Making The Decision To Divorce Caroline: Well, my first reaction is laughing, because before I went to Betrayal Trauma Recovery, which is the best betrayal trauma support group. I definitely wanted to make things work. But I was exhausted and had put off scheduling for a long time, because I was nervous and wasn’t sure what was going to happen. The best thing that happened was that my Betrayal Trauma Recovery Coach helped me identify my core values. So that all my decisions should be made based on those core values that I established. It was very explicit that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is not an advocate for divorce, but that we should also ensure that we’re in a safe situation. And so the decision to divorce came from me. In fact, when I told my Betrayal Trauma Recovery coach, she was surprised I made the decision to divorce. Anne: And did you feel supported by your coach? Caroline: Yes, I definitely felt support from her. The support was to help identify myself, work through and make progress. It was, you’re a strong woman. You can do anything that you put your mind to. And you know, that said it all. After talking with my coach for the first and second time, we talked about boundaries, and I came up with some boundaries that I was going to set with my ex husband. And once the boundaries were set in place, things took a different turn. It made him upset, much more abusive, a different side to my ex-husband that I never had seen. And so to me, setting a simple boundary. We saw his true colors. Anne: Was it shocking to you? Caroline: Oh yeah, I had never seen him react that way, just completely livid. He’d never really yelled at me like that, but was throwing things. I Didn’t Make Appointments Anymore & He Blew Up Caroline: Just completely different than I had ever seen him before. And this wasn’t a boundary of no physical contact. We had been seeing a therapist who specializes in addiction. And the therapist told me that my ex-husband would have to make the appointments from here on out. Because at that time, for months and months, I was the one making appointments and taking him. To the appointments, the therapist said nothing will change until he wants to do this. So, the boundary was set: You need to make your own appointments to see this therapist. That’s when he blew up. Anne: When I realized my husband was as abusive as he was, and I hadn’t seen it as abuse, I was shocked. When I found out how abusive he was. And when I was managing him and when I was not setting boundaries, I don’t think I ever would have seen abusiveness. It sounds like that was a moment for you where you’re like, whoa, he’s abusive. Caroline: This is a very simple thing. That’s all I’m asking you. And it was just chaos. Trying to ask him to do very simple things Anne: Without being totally berated, yeah. Caroline: That reminds me when I was barely discovering Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I was surfing around on your website to get some more information. And there was a list of behaviors and examples of gaslighting on your website. And consequently, I’m sitting at work in front of my computer and reading these. Epiphanies About My Abusive Husband Caroline: I just had the biggest epiphanies, every sentence listed, every bullet point was like yes, this is how I felt. I’ve never been able to put words to it. That’s the moment I decided, okay, something has to change. And I’ve got to get help to figure out what needs to happen and change. But I just remember reading those, it was huge for me. And when people ask me about BTR.ORG or my divorce, and then they go into their own struggles with their spouse, who is a user, I always refer them to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. It’s the same reaction I can see on their face. Every time it’s just, oh my goodness, this is putting into words what I’ve never been able to say. Anne: I think it goes from knowing that your husband uses explicit material, being frustrated about it, and trying to figure that out. To realize that you’re in an abusive relationship. And maybe you will be making a decision to divorce. Making The Decision To Divorce Even When You Don’t Know If He’s Abusive Caroline: Yeah, I never would have classified it as an abusive relationship until then. Anne: Yeah, so the shift from I’m worried about my husband. He uses explicit material, and it hurts me. To say he is abusive is one of the most traumatizing shifts in paradigm. But once that shift in paradigm happens, women are like, okay, so I need to set boundaries. Because all the love service and forgiveness will not help the situation. Caroline: Right, absolutely. Anne: You found Betrayal Trauma Recovery at 22. There are some women who find BTR.ORG at 40 after 20 years of marriage. There are some who find it at 50 after 30 years of marriage. Or women who find it after 2 or 3 divorces. What are you watching for in your future relationships? Self-Care & Healing After Deciding To Divorce Caroline: The biggest thing I watch for is how they treat me and themselves. How they take care of themselves and their sense of personal wellness. I definitely don’t have it like honed down yet. Because I still have belief issues or trust issues. How they interact with other people if they’re constantly seeking validation or having to be the center of the conversation, or reverting stories back to them, and interrupting people. The characteristics of narcissism are definitely what I look for. Something I do regularly is write about my thoughts. I don’t hide from that place of asking the hard questions of myself, or facing the trauma. So if I am triggered, I like to come home at the end of the day and write about it. And sometimes I keep it, and sometimes I throw it away as a symbolic gesture. I’m done with you, done with this feeling. I notice that I’m much more self aware of my thoughts now that I decided to divorce. You know, exercise and being outside have helped astronomically throughout the process of feeling whole again, able and strong, just staying connected to my feelings. Anne: It sounds like also just staying connected to reality. Caroline: Yeah. Anne: Because to be with an active user who’s abusing you. You’re either always fighting with them, so there’s like this constant chaos. Or you sort of have to live in their reality, which is not reality. I remember one day I walked out of the house and was walking outside, and I looked up and felt the sun on my face. It felt so new. I looked at the birds, and I remember the birds flying by, and I remember looking at a tree. It was swaying. Decision To Divorce: Healing Through Walking & Growing Anne: And it was almost surreal. Like, is this real? This is reality. I just thought, wow, I’ve been living in this fog inside my house with this abusive situation. And my reality has been so skewed. And I started trying to do that too. Just walking outside, letting the sun be on my face. I garden, self care is on my list of what I’m doing now to heal and grow. I like the journey of it, and I’m okay. It’s a crazy journey. That I’m not doing fantastic at it, but at least I’m making small steps forward. Caroline: Yeah. Anne: Caroline, I know your mom has listened to the podcast and is familiar with Betrayal Trauma Recovery. So many of the things that you learned, she also knew because she listened to the podcast. How has that helped you as you’ve progressed in your healing, after deciding to divorce? Caroline: Well, obviously the introduction to BTR.ORG by my mom was super helpful. I am forever grateful for the education my mom has about addiction. Because that’s what it boils down to. Gaining an education about what this addiction does, and having my mom there as a support, was super helpful. You know, being able to take the emotion out of the sadness that her daughter is going through, and looking at the facts, was helpful. https://youtu.be/n4A7Kj52V2M Mom’s Who Listen To The Podcast Understand More About Their Daughter’s Situation Caroline: Nobody wants that to be their friend, their daughter, or their sister. For a brief moment, there was that reaction from my mom of, you need to keep trying. And then the next day she called me and said, honey, I was wrong. I’m sorry and I’m here for you, which she did only because of the education she has. Anne: I wish everyone who was going through this had a mom who is also listening to the podcast. Caroline: For sure… Anne: Caroline, thank you for being here today. I’m so grateful that you found BTR.ORG. Caroline: Thank you, Anne.…

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Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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How To Protect Children From Online Abuse with Kristen Jenson 15:19

6 weeks ago15:19

15:19

Did you know that it’s considered child abuse to expose a child to inappropriate media? Here’s how to protect children from online threats. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz . When A Child Is Exposed To Online Dangers A child’s accidental exposure to online inappropriate material. It traumatizes children who view it. They need immediate trauma-focused care to process and heal. Trauma from exposure can affect children in many ways. Often, traumatized children experience: Sleep disturbances including nightmares and insomnia Mood swings and behavioral issues Somberness, sadness Preoccupation with sexuality Fear and anxiety about safety You Can Set Boundaries To Protect Young Kids From Online Threats Courageous women who face the devastation of betrayal trauma, emotional abuse, and betrayal can find help, healing, and support as they set and maintain boundaries that keep their children safe from exploitative media. An example of a boundary that would protect women and children from the chaotic harm and abuse of exploitative media use. Is asking the user to relocate to a different living space. So that his material cannot harm anyone in the family. You Can Be Proactive In Teaching Children About Online Harms Often, children have a trauma response. All children exposed to it are abuse victims. They should be treated with compassion, respect, and the intentional care that any trauma victim would receive for abuse. In addition to trauma-focused care, women may find resources helpful in helping their children understand the truths about it. The book Good Pictures, Bad Pictures may help teach children about it. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions offer support, validation, and community to women all over the world who seek safety and healing if their husband’s exploitative content use betrayed them. Attend a session today . Transcript: How To Protect Children From Online Abuse Anne: I have a good friend on today’s episode. Her name is Kristen Jenson, and she’s the founder of Defend Young Minds , an organization that helps protect young kids from online threats by teaching them strategies and skills to use as they go about their lives. Welcome, Kristen. Kristen: Thanks, Anne. It’s great to be here with you. Anne: My kids love your books. We have them all around our house. My youngest, loves non-fiction. and so she reads them frequently. So thank you so much. Can you just start off talking about your books? Kristen: Good Pictures, Bad Pictures and Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, Junior, A Simple Plan to Defend Young Minds . They’re both number one bestsellers on Amazon and have been so for years. And you know, speaking of number one bestsellers, I know your book has been a number one bestseller, Trauma Mama Husband Drama . I love it. I mean, the illustrations are awesome. I’ve read many books that try to rhyme, and some work better than others, and yours works great. I love how you approach that. It helps it not to be so heavy, and yet you’re talking about serious topics. Women get trapped in this place where her husband looks great on the outside, but there’s a lot of trauma going on. And then I love how in the back, you’ve got lots of charts that help explain a lot of the issues. Anne: It’s frequently a bestseller in the category of teen and young adult nonfiction on abuse, which is interesting to me because I did not expect my book to be for kids. Many people have said, my children love this book. That surprised me. The Importance Of Talking About Exploitative Media Anne: I think the thing that probably surprises both of us is how ready and capable children are to learn about these difficult topics. Kristen: Kids love these books because they respond to the truth. When a book clearly shines light, I think kids just gobble it up. It’s a relief to them when you’re willing to open up and talk about it or about the effects of expolitative media in a relationship, marriage, and family. Kids are more resilient than we give them credit for, and it’s great that they have these books to help them. Anne: Can you talk about why some parents might think that not talking about it may be better for their kids? Kristen: Yeah, I totally get that it may be intuitive, because we want to protect our children from online danger and keep them innocent. Some parents think, what if I tell my kid about it, and then they get curious and look for it. Well, we owe it to our children to teach them how to thrive in this day and age. The goal is not innocence, the goal is teaching a child to make wise decisions. We teach them about all the other dangers and have drills, but somehow we think that this is different. It’s not, it’s a danger, just like every other danger. You need a proactive, intentional approach where you are working to create digital defense skills. When kids know what it is, why it’s harmful, and what to do when they see it, then and only then do they have a real choice to reject it. And they have the beginning of a defense, which of course in the end, it’s up to them. Real-Life Stories Of Preparedness Kristen: And I have so many stories of kids. One boy, like seven years old, was just going to ride bikes in the cul de sac. But they went inside and his teenage brothers said, hey, come over. We want to show you something and showed these little boys exploitative media. His mother had talked to him about it. He knew what to do and went home. He told her about it. She was able to debrief him and help him process and neutralize those memories. And she told me, our plan actually worked beautifully. She could have never predicted that that situation would happen. But she was so glad her son was prepared, and he knew what to do. He knew to tell her, she was a safe person to talk to about this. https://youtu.be/fvbr2Fx4fl4 Anne: She helped protect children from online abuse. Yeah, because they have so many questions, they’ll hear things at school. One of my sons, when he was in fifth grade, we did the maturation clinic, and I went with him. But I had already talked to him about everything. We’d already gone over everything at home. And he told me that at lunch, some kids talked about the maturation clinic, and they were giving the wrong information. And speaking of innocence. I just had two researchers on the podcast. They’re PhD level researchers, and they interviewed a bunch of women who have been through betrayal trauma. And one of the things they found was that women felt like their “innocence” had harmed them. They wish they had abuse education. They wish they had had abuse education. Protect Children From Online Abuse: Objectification & It’s Harm Anne: They wish they had more education about healthy intimacy. In general they were religious. It was like, don’t have it until you’re married. Then once you’re married, your husband will show you what to do. You don’t need education about it. Many of them had experienced abuse from their husbands, their husbands were always on their phone looking at it, and they didn’t even know it was abuse. All of them had experienced coercion, they didn’t know that was coercion. So the knowledge of abuse is that these are the elements of healthy relationships. What I love about your materials is that they teach these healthy concepts without saying the word, to prepare children for when that conversation will happen in the future. They help protect children from online abuse, and its effects. Kristen: In the book for kids ages seven and older, talks about objectification, how it objectifies people’s bodies. And instead of seeing them as a whole person, who deserves love and respect, they’re just seen as a body or some sort of compilation of body parts. When you objectify a person, it’s easier to hurt them. And that’s another harm of online exploitation, because it shows people being mean and acting like that’s fun. And so is hurting people a good way to treat somebody? No, so that just starts to teach that basics of healthy relationships are respectful and kind, and involves the whole person and trust. Whereas it teaches the exact opposite, it involves violence, disrespect, degradation, and objectification. Online Exploitation Harms Mental Health Kristen: And you can’t tell me that watching it for years and years. And then going into a marriage will not affect your template, your expectations and your behavior. There are quite a few studies that show that is true. People who look at it have a harder time having a healthy relationship. They also give their partner betrayal trauma from infidelity . So turns out there are quite a few studies that show the mental health harms of it. And how it is associated with a wide range of harming mental health, not only in children and adolescents, but also in adults. I would say there are more studies with adults, obviously, it is associated with greater loneliness. This content predicts depression and anxiety. There was a study that showed that both general and aggressive use alone were associated with less relationship satisfaction and relationship stability. Even when accounting for a range of potentially confounding variables. One in Germany was with over 1500 German speaking users, ages 18 to 76. It showed that users with problematic content use scored significantly higher in many problems, obsessive compulsive behavior, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation. Also, they scored significantly worse in every measure of psychological functioning considered, including again, OCD, interpersonal sensitivity, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation, and psychoticism. They also found that these results were elevated to a clinically relevant degree compared with the general population. The intensity of these problems was categorized as severe psychological distress. I could go on and on, but basically using it creates poor mental health outcomes. Kids should know that it does harm their mental health. There are so many studies that show this is true. There is a need protect children from online abuse to prevent long term damage. Dopamine & Gender Differences In Online Explotative Exposure Kristen: The other problem with kids using it: there’s so many problems, but one of them is the dopamine. It sets your dopamine level so high that normal things that kids used to really enjoy, like exploring the backyard and looking for bugs you know, are just boring. So it’s messing with the dopamine in the brain. What would those kids learn and develop? So there’s lost opportunity for normal development. It appears to delay normal social development and cognitive development. These are all things that parents need to be concerned about when it comes to handing a device to a child. Parents need to know how protect children from online abuse. Anne: As you’ve been working with parents over the years and how can we protect children online, have you seen any gender differences between the information boys need and girls need? Kristen: Yes, I have. Girls often get into it differently than boys, but they often end up in the same place. You know, girls are interested in relationships. So they like stories, and they will be pulled in through erotic literature, through fan fiction, even through anime and cartoons. They’ll be pulled in that way, but often end up with the videos. So I’ve been writing a book for girls to teach them the harms of it, not only themselves as they watch it. But it harms them if they get into a relationship with somebody who is also watching it. There’s quite a bit of research now that shows that if both partners watch it together, they have like threefold risk for infidelity, which is harmful to a relationship. We Need To Protect Kids From Online Threats Anne: Well, and we view it as infidelity at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, so they’re already… Kristen: Yes, Anne: …being unfaithful. If they are, they’re both unfaithful. Kristen: Absolutely. We want to help girls understand that there are other ways to get into it It’s not just the bad pictures you see. It’s also the bad pictures that can be created in your mind through books and stories. And even explicit cartoons are dangerous and addicting. This a way to protect children from online danger. Anne: Well, Kristen, your work is incredible. My kids love it. I’m so grateful it organizes things in a way that is easy to approach the topic. So I’m like, win, win, win. Go to defendyoungminds.com to learn more about her resources. Thank you so much, Kristen, for spending time talking with me today. Kristen: Thank you, Anne it’s been a pleasure.…

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How To Deal With An Addict Husband – Evangeline’s Story 53:38

7 weeks ago53:38

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If you’re struggling to deal with an addict husband, we get it. We’re here for you. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are for women who have done everything they can to fix their marriage, but their addict husband is still causing trouble. To see if your husband’s addiction causes him to be emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz . And listen (above) to Evangeline’s story to see if you relate, or read the transcript below. You’re not alone. Transcript: How To Deal With An Addict Husband Anne: A member of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community is on today’s episode. We’re calling her Evangeline. Welcome, Evangeline. Evangeline: Thank you for talking with me, Anne. I’m so grateful for the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community. Anne: Let’s start at the beginning. Can you talk about how you felt about your husband at first? Evangeline: Ours was like a real romance. I thought I married the man of my dreams, that I earned and deserved this as a good Christian girl and woman. I was in love, head over heels in love. He checked all the boxes. He had faith, honored and respected me, and did many thoughtful gestures. Anne: Back then, did you notice anything a bit off, and how did you define that? Evangeline: There were moments. I suspected he may be an addict early on and thought he acted out in his “addiction” in isolated moments. Like, just a few times a year. He’d apologize and say it wouldn’t happen again. I never told anyone because it was infrequent. I just thought he’s growing up, he’s figuring it out. As long as it doesn’t get any worse, I’m going to be okay. We’re going to be okay. How To Deal With An Addict Husband When He Lies Evangeline: He introduced pornography into our marriage. I said, no, I didn’t like that. I became uncomfortable. He’s telling me he’s watching pornography to learn how to be a better husband. How to maybe be a better lover or to be more educated. Anne: A flat out lie. He’s constantly on his phone , watching it. Evangeline: Totally. It didn’t help him be a “better” anything. I found infidelity 15 to 20 years into my marriage. The reality was, I can’t tell you how many incidences. I lived in fear. There is no way to deal with this when your husband says he’s an addict. The Reality of My Husband’s Addiction Evangeline: And really why would I know how to deal with an addicted husband ? My parents raised me sheltered and uninformed. And he seemed to love and adore me. I felt so blessed at the time. This was a godsend, an answer to prayer. Anne: It makes total sense. That is exactly what you would think, especially under the circumstances. You think he’s a man of God, because that’s what he has told you. Evangeline: The first 10 years of our marriage were a blur. Our two youngest out of three kids had severe medical issues. Those years were just survival. I took women’s Bible study and women’s leadership. The Sacrifices You Make When Your Husband is An Addict I did bookkeeping for multiple churches and nonprofits. He also played a part in my business. He did taxes for some of the customers I had. My business was thriving. About 13 or so years into our marriage, we decided to move across the country. He wanted us to go down to one income, one job. So I sold my business to another accountant in our city. And I became a full time stay at home mom for the next 16 years. I didn’t know what would happen when I gave up my financial security and ability to take care of myself. I needed safety, because my husband was an addict, and that was an unsafe situation. The Christian evangelical community promoted and encouraged us to be stay-at-home moms. I didn’t realize that as a woman, I was putting myself at risk for the situation I’m now currently in. He Wanted Power & Control Evangeline: I can see it now that he wanted more power and control. If he’s an addict, you can start seeing the patterns. Like, when I started going back to school, he was not supportive. He would call me in the middle of my day, interrupt me when he’d never done that before. This behavior felt like more that just being an “addict husband.” I would keep my study time to only the hours my kids were at school. I could only study when I had no other duties. He Didn’t Want Me To Improve Myself Evangeline: It was obvious he didn’t want me to improve myself, or show interest in any of my hobbies. And that was shocking. His addiction meant he only wanted me the version of myself he married at 22. He didn’t allow me to grow and change. I wasn’t allowed to be an educated and degreed adult. I had to be the high school graduate. He simply wanted my attention only on him. Anne: One part of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches that we all have special talents and interests. But sometimes, when a husband struggles with addiction, he makes us think our life should only be about him. This workshop helps us realize that we were created to live our own life. My Addict Husband Got In the Way Of My Career Evangeline: Yes, only certain activities met his approval, such as my kid’s medical issues. I could do ministry and women’s ministry through my churches. And I’m learning that my husband is an “addict”. But the more my information and knowledge about abuse increased, the more his behavior became destructive and worse. Realizing What My Husband Being An Addict Meant To Me Evangeline: I think back now, and I’m like, my life was out of control. My personal life was in mayhem. In fact, the only place stable was work. My spouse was an addict to an extreme level. As an “addict”, he was also acting out with other women. Sometimes I think we just go through a series of betrayals that are so deep and so intense. It’s almost like when he does it again, you’re in such a state of shock. The reverberations from each of these betrayals almost paralyze you. It’s like you couldn’t even react anymore. My hypervigilance became extreme. I was waiting for the next one to happen. And at some point, I’m became numb. I developed severe agoraphobia. When An Addict Gets Caught At Work Evangeline: We moved four times in 10 years. I lived in four States in 10 years. These were all moves related to him changing jobs. There were multiple incidents with his employers or with a fellow employee. I would never get the whole story or the whole truth. But I knew enough to know that he was misbehaving and acting inappropriately, unprofessionally with subordinates. When he started the last job he had when I was with him, he had already started a relationship with a woman at work before the rest of the family moved. But I didn’t know that. All those years, I was fighting for my marriage. Even though it was a complete disaster, full betrayal, full addiction. It was so exhausting constantly having to manage an addicted husband. I didn’t realize what his addiction was doing to me. I just thought, “He needs help to overcome his addiction. And I’d still be there for him once he figured it out.” That’s truly what I thought. I said to him, “I’ll give you the freedom to figure out your problems, get help, and do what you got to do.” Anne: You’re still in this, like, willing to help your husband with his “addiction”? Manipulation & Prolonged Abuse Because many times a husband will say, “I’m an addict” to manipulate us to “help” him. But it’s just to continue to exploit us. Evangeline: Yes! He used it to continue to exploit me for sure! I said, “You go get help”. Your addiction is ruining your career. I do not feel safe, my husband is addicted he needs to get into a 12 Step Program. Also, you need therapy. So in addiction therapy, the therapist had us create one shared password for all our emails and accounts. We set up accountability and transparency. So I don’t know how he did it, but he still watched explicit material, and had conversations with other women. He would just “slip up” here and there until life became just one constant slip up. I didn’t realize what was actually happening. The Myth Of Keeping Your Addict Husband Satisfied Evangeline: I’d never spoken to anyone about my marriage. I remember telling one woman at church that I had become fairly good friends about with what I’d found on his phone. He had inappropriate texts with a woman at work. I truly believed the teaching that if you keep your husband busy and satisfied, filling his mind with thoughts of you, it would help him deal with his addiction. She told me that if I satisfy him, he wouldn’t need to seek out explicit material or other women. When I decide to do something, I’ll go all in. And so I followed that advice, and it didn’t work. It failed. He cheated, betrayed, and continued in his addiction. Isolation, Fear & Discovering What His “Addiction” Really Meant Evangeline: I took a leave of absence. I began to search for any resource I could find, betrayal trauma, addiction and narcissistic personality disorder. It wasn’t until I started listening to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast . And I heard other women share their stories of what it was like to be married to an addict. I suddenly heard something I identified with. And of course, at the beginning, I didn’t understand that you can’t take this information to an addict husband. But I made that mistake of taking him the information I was learning. Misunderstanding Addiction Evangeline: And I truly thought if I just approached him the right way. If I had the magic way to say it, he will understand and see the light. I know he’s intelligent, smart and capable. I must be failing. I’m not saying it right. Let me help my addict husband by trying it all in different ways. He’s bound to get it eventually. Then he began turning what I knew against me. He started saying that I was the abuser and that I was the one causing problems. The scariest part of my story with him happened when we moved to this state for his job. This was the first time he worked at a hospital for behavioral health. He was the CFO at the hospital. Even though he has no mental health education of any kind. Maybe Psychology 101 that everyone has to take in college. He’s an executive for the facility. But he’s coming home and telling me, you wouldn’t believe the wonders that we see in patients receiving shock treatment. It’s actually still a valid treatment practiced today, and you wouldn’t believe how these people are emotionally stable due to shock treatment. And he’s like, you should look into it. Anne: For you? Evangeline: Yes, he scared me so bad. At that point, I struggled with severe agoraphobia. I was terrified, knew no one in a strange city. I had no friends, no family, and no one to call and talk to. Feeling Complete Isolation While Dealing With My Addict Husband Evangeline: I was completely isolated and terrified. If I can’t trust people I live with, who are supposed to be for me. And the people who are supposed to love me and have my back? How could I possibly trust a stranger? I knew I could trust my coworkers in my child advocacy work, but beyond that, I had no one personally. And I was terrified. I was terrified he would commit me against my will and that I would have a shock treatment done to me against my will. And you lose memory, and looking back now that I know that’s one of the effects of that treatment. I understand why he wanted it so bad. We had reached a point in our marriage where I had learned so many truths. There was no return from that knowledge. Anne: Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Evangeline: You can’t unsee it. And I didn’t realize then how desperate he was for me to not know the truth of him. I know it now. Anne: So you become a child advocate, recognize what abuse is, but still don’t recognize that he’s abusive. Then you recognize that he’s abusive, and you think, oh, if I can just explain it well enough. By the way, this is totally normal. You’re completely normal. I went through the same thing, trying to help my “addicted husband.” I think every abuse victim does. Because they’ve manipulated us to think they’ve like given us that impression. They’ve gaslit us to think that. So then, you go through that phase, which we’ve all been through, of okay. If I can explain it to him, or if I can get him to the right therapist or something, then he’ll get help. Therapist Disappointment Evangeline: He went to a therapist, and I went to one appointment not to do a couples therapy. But to say, hey, I want to hear from the therapist that you are telling the therapist everything. Anne: Is this a CSAT, or is this a, what type of therapist? Is it an addiction specialist? Evangeline: They do therapy for addiction. Just a traditional therapist with addiction training. I told both therapists, “I’m not safe, I’m not safe, and I’m not sure what he’s doing next. That’s going to destroy me and the kids, our lives. I’m terrified.” Did you know that neither of those therapists had one thing to offer me? Not one thing. They didn’t follow up, and they didn’t have anything to give me. Anne: That is unfortunately most women’s experience when they work with an addiction specialist for their spouse. It’s so disappointing, invalidating, and frankly dangerous. And that’s why I started our group sessions and our individual sessions. And also why I wrote the Living Free Workshop. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women determine their adddict husband’s true character, and then teaches safety strategies. So basically, it helps women know exactly what’s going on, and then also what’s going to happen next. Because I found most therapists, therapy in general, especially couple therapy or therapy for troubled marriages. They just look at you and blink. They might say the word boundaries, but they don’t know how to actually teach boundaries, because “communication” is always the solution when it comes to therapy. And “communication” doesn’t help with an addicted husband. So I am so sorry. That’s so discouraging. So they just like stared at you and just like blinked at you. False Hope In Addiction Therapy Evangeline: That’s what they did. They had nothing to offer, no suggestions for a safety plan, and didn’t look to him and say, we need to stop now. At this point, we weren’t addressing the misconduct. We were addressing his behavior with addiction. It was out of control and dangerous. Anne: Though it felt terrible to you at the time, and they did not do the right thing, there is a silver lining there, and it’s that they didn’t say, oh, I can help both of you. And this is how we’re going to do this. And the reason why that’s a silver lining is that false hope. Sometimes we call it hopium around here that, like, oh, I will treat your husband and make him safe for you, is super dangerous. We don’t recommend any men’s programs, because we’ve seen them use that to continue to manipulate and control, and they weaponize all the therapy language. It almost makes them like super abusers, because they know how to speak. And it gets scary quickly. When they’ve become these like almost mutants of themselves through learning the therapy language. Did you experience that part, where they’re good at using the therapy language as weapons against us? Evangeline: When we were separated for a year, I felt it a little. I asked for a space where we could talk and actually work things out. Whenever we talked alone, the conversations just went in circles. We kept jumping from one thing to another without solving anything. I still cared about my marriage and wanted it to work, even though we had been apart for a year. I requested, can we find a therapist where we will have space to have conversations? My Addict Husband Was 99 Percent Done Evangeline: So we’re both held accountable for how we participate in that conversation, not couples counseling. this point, even though I still desire to keep my marriage and future, he said I’m 99 percent done. You know what that did to me? It took me a couple of appointments before I finally understood that statement. I’m 99 percent done. There was that 1 percent chance, and that dangle. I was the one dangling. He was exercising that power of dangling me, even though he was done. He was already living with a woman for a couple of years. I just didn’t know it. My kids knew it, he knew it. And no one told me. I was the only one. But he kept saying, I’m just 99 percent done. So I’m thinking, okay, he’s not going to the top. The therapist knew he’d thrown in the towel before I did. https://youtu.be/p-PCyiQQrp0 Anne: It’s so hard. And I’m guessing the therapist didn’t mention this is abuse either. Evangeline: No. Anne: Yeah. Evangeline: And that therapist actually with the credentials is trained and should have known it, should have seen. Anne: Generally, therapists don’t have abuse training. It’s a weird, strange situation. Because people think therapists should have abuse training, but in general, they don’t have a lot of it. They don’t assess abuse. When they think he is abusive. And I am the best therapist, and I can help him with his abuse. That scares me actually even more than the person who doesn’t recognize it. Because if the guy didn’t want to be abusive, he knows what he’s doing, and he would have stopped his abuse already. He Knows He’s Lying & Therapy Won’t Help Anne: Therapy isn’t going to help him. It makes me nervous. Evangeline: I’ve since learned therapy doesn’t fix the abuser. Anne: For those of us, me included, who thought, he just needs to know what’s going on, where I went wrong there. And I described this well and why this happens in the BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop . He knew what he was doing. So he knew he was lying and what happened. And so if I was like, ah, this is what’s happening. He already knew it wouldn’t change him. Because if knowing would have changed him, he already knew, it would have changed him already. It was the opposite. He knew exactly what he was doing, and he was doing it on purpose. Evangeline: It is hard. It’s really hard to come to terms with the fact that the person you committed to your life, that you love, honor, and cherish. And you bring such a beautiful, valuable side to the relationship to the table. It’s so hard to imagine they’re doing these destructive things on purpose. And they actually don’t care how much you’re harmed, how deep you’re hurt, how devastated you are. And then you get blamed for your response for being emotional or angry. For being any of the valid emotions you’re supposed to experience. When you face betrayal, shock, hurt, devastation, and your life imploding, you’re going to have those emotions. Those are valid, and they’re appropriate. For those to get judged, I mean, you’re emotionally unstable, you’ve got the problem. But their decades of behavior suddenly is not even the issue or not even the focus. Corporate Retreat Revelation Evangeline: You know, Anne, there’s one more part of my story. Before I became an advocate, we were actually on a corporate retreat for his work. So all the wives did a spa day together, and we were having healthy girl talk, nothing inappropriate. It was spending this time with these other women who were not from the evangelical community in which I was raised. They were just average, ordinary, great women. We were talking about marriage and intimacy. And I had made a comment that we have intimacy, and it’s healthy in my marriage. It’s great, in fact, if he feels the need to be intimate, even if I’m passed out and asleep, I was okay if he needed to be intimate. And the reaction from these women. Anne: You were sharing what you thought was an example of your healthy intimacy, thinking they would be like, oh, that is so healthy that we can be intimate. Evangeline: Yes. Anne: …with you when you’re passed out. Evangeline: I was so ingrained with my only role and goal in life, which is to please him to whatever self sacrifice I need to do. My purpose is to please him. Even if that means using my body when I am asleep and on sleeping medication, I cannot verbally consent or even have any memory or knowledge it happened afterward. I thought that was my duty as his wife to provide that for him, in order to help my husband with his addiction. No husband should ever do that ever. You have to consent. I’m like, I consented. I and they told me, no, that’s not consent. You have to be conscious in the moment, consent in the moment. And so I started having conversations with my spouse about it. How To Deal With An Addict: Realizing the Extent of The Abuse Evangeline: And it turned out he’d been doing this way longer than I knew, and it was something he continued to do. Even after that conversation, he did it for years. Anne: I’m so sorry. Evangeline: You know, it was shocking when I found out. The times I didn’t know, it’s like if he did it and then told me, and I knew it was somehow a little better and okay. But finding out it had been going on for years. And then once this conversation started happening with him, this person inside out. You know, when they start lying, you can tell when they are not truthful with you. And then it was having all the subsequent conversations. And in each of those, his lies grew more. The retellings, the details would change in his retellings. And then having these conversations with him is when I would begin to get flooded with flashbacks. Where I would have some conscious recall, and I didn’t know what to do with that. I had nowhere to turn. I was alone in that. And I still stayed married and had a very active, intimate life with him for many more years to come, like eight more years. It was hard to reconcile. Anne: Absolutely. Evangeline: When you have the good times, and then you have the falling apart times, and then you have the shock and awe times of like, is he really? Is he that bad? Is he that vile? No, I have to be misunderstanding. That had to have been an exception. That can’t have been the norm. Again, it’s just a series of traumas that never seemed to end. The Final Separation & Divorce After Years Of Supporting His Addiction Recovery Evangeline: So when I finally separate from him, I finally realize my marriage is over. That I can’t deal with his addiction anymore. I need a divorce. I had at that point already done betrayal trauma work. It was a 17 month divorce with a full trial. I then turned around, and the week I turned 50, he filed the appeal. So I had another 17 month long court. I just won the appeal, but he’s still challenging my win. I actually got a text two weeks ago on the 4th of this month, communicating that exact thought. He said, just be reasonable the way you saw me once upon a time. He wants me to be that 22 year old bride who thinks he is the most amazing person ever. Who can do no wrong. And unless I view him like that, I’m not reasonable. Because I’m asking for something that the law legally entitles me to ask for. From Focus on the Family , “Help your husband be the hero to your children.” I chose to do it with my kids, and even though he was working late or I didn’t know where he was. I told them, “Oh, your dad wishes he was here. He’ll be here as soon as he can. You have a great dad who loves you.” I said those things, and I didn’t just do it once. I kept saying it for years. Realizing All The Abuse Anne: And you did it because you thought it would help. It was actually an act of resistance on your part. So I want you to, like, hold your head up high. Because you genuinely thought that it would improve things. It wasn’t because you’re stupid. It wasn’t because… Evangeline: No. Anne: …your brain doesn’t work. It’s not because you’re emotionally unstable. It’s an act of resistance. It was the only thing you could think of at the time to keep yourself safe. And the sad thing is they’re preying on women’s vulnerabilities. They should educate women about abuse to “focus on the family”, and strengthen a family. Evangeline: Yes, Anne, I’m 51. It took me decades to understand all the abuse I experienced in my marriage. No one teaches this in most evangelical groups. Schools don’t really teach it either, especially private Christian schools. I went to a private Christian school for 13 years, and no one ever talked about abuse—not in class, not in church, not even in women’s ministries. For ten years, I led in my role, but no one ever brought me a lesson saying we should stop supporting addicted husbands unconditionally. Advocacy & Awareness We don’t teach women how to be a good support, how to be a safe place to live, how to be a good friend. Can I walk alongside a woman in the middle of trauma, abuse, and betrayal? What should I say? What should I not say? So big churches we have, is that in their bookstores? These materials are not on their bookstore shelves. They’re not promoting them. It is a missed opportunity. Anne: That is why I started podcasting. To educate everyone that abuse causes betrayal trauma. A husband’s addiction will always be abusive to you, their wife. The lies, the gaslighting, all that is abuse. You can’t call it anything else. Evangeline: We didn’t know about erectile dysfunction either. And that my husband needed to begin the pill for that in his early 30’s. I never even learned that fact until my late forties. I didn’t even know that piece of information. Evangeline: For over 15 years, I didn’t know things that should be simple to understand. Women need to understand what they’re going through. We need to learn the words and meanings to describe it. For example, if your husband is an addict, you are experiencing abuse and betrayal. Infidelity Is Abuse: Dealing With An Addict Husband Anne: I think one of the reasons why it’s not common knowledge. They want you to think that their shame causes it, childhood trauma, or something. When many of us feel shame or have childhood trauma. We have problems, and we don’t lie to people and deceive them on purpose. So many people pretend or act like this isn’t a choice, a conscious choice to harm people and exploit them. But that is what it is, and it’s really hard for the courts to wrap their heads around it. For therapists to wrap their heads around it. For friends and family, to realize that abuse is a conscious choice. He knows what he’s doing, and it’s harmful. And of course, she’s upset. Of course, she’s hypervigilant. Anyone going through that is hypervigilant, because someone was hurting her on purpose. She was trying to avoid the chaos her “addict” husband was causing. Like, it’s hard for people to wrap their heads around it. So I’m so grateful that you were willing to come on today to share your story. Because all of us sharing our story helps other women realize what’s going on. So your bravery today to share has been amazing. Evangeline: Thank you for having me Anne. We’re here for you. If you related to any part of Evangeline’s story, we’d love to see you in a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.…

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Betrayal Trauma In Relationships: What You Need To Know 21:18

8 weeks ago21:18

21:18

Have you experienced betrayal trauma in relationships? Have you been betrayed, emotionally abused, and abandoned? Disbelieved, dismissed, and even shunned? If so, listen as these betrayal victims share their advice for other women. If you need actual support from women who understand, attend a live Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. The Right Support To Help You Identify if Betrayal Trauma is in Your Relationship If you discover your husband betrayed you, knowing what to is difficult. Sometimes clergy, therapists, even the legal system dismiss women’s trauma after betrayal. Betrayal Trauma Recovery empowers women when they become educated about what to do. One of the key things to do if you’ve been betrayed is determining if there has also been emotional abuse. To discover if his betrayal includes emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz . Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Relationships Anne: We have a very special episode today. Victims of Betrayal, trauma in Relationships share their stories about what helped them heal, I asked them to record what their thoughts were and send those recordings to me so here are those recordings. She Learned How to Create Boundaries Due To The Betrayal Trauma In Her Relationship Betrayal Trauma Victim #1: We tried many counselors, including CSATS, and have been doing that quite some time. Being on BTR for just a few weeks has made all the difference, and I can see the behaviors now much more clearly, the dysfunction. Being on every day and getting the validation from the coaches and other women has been tremendously helpful to me. Life changing. She Received Life-Changing Support Betrayal Trauma Victim #2: I’m grateful for Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I was able to get clear thinking about what I witnessed and what was going on. Listening to the podcast and then having the coaches talk with us individually helped me classify and figure out strategies for handling, grooming, gaslighting, and things that I didn’t have words for until I got into BTR. It’s the best support for betrayal trauma. But I think the most significant thing was to get that outside myself and apply it in different situations. And one was with my husband’s counselor. Very traditionally, he would like to do marriage counseling, and I learned with BTR that there has to be a certain level of health before that would be successful. I was able to state that with my husband’s counselor to say to him, his sex before marriage, the pornography, all those things are not marriage problems. They cause marriage problems, but they are his personal problems until he addresses them. Marriage counseling will not be successful, and I will not participate. But it was BTR that empowered me to understand, one, I have a voice, and two, that was a very logical way to handle the situation. And the counselor was taken aback, but he saw what I was saying, and he took another course with my husband, which actually helped my husband more. So I’m very grateful for BTR and the coaches, and thankful for the daily presence of having somewhere to go. Where the craziness around us can be processed and we can come to a place of peace. She Learned That She’s Not Crazy Betrayal Trauma Victim #3: BTR Group Sessions have amazing coaches who have also walked this path. They can give appropriate advice, encouragement, and help answer questions and guide you along the path of recovery. BTR gave me the words and the terminology to put to how I was feeling. And knowing the right words to describe my feelings helped calm my soul and helped me to not feel so crazy. There have been several moments when I was full of panic, anxiety, and fear because of the situations at home with my husband, and I was able to get on Betrayal Trauma Support Group within a couple of hours and talk through it, get the comfort and validation that I needed and advice if it was needed. BTR Group has been a lifesaver for me on many occasions. It’s a safe place where I can cry and let it all out and share my fears, no matter how silly they may seem to others. The coaches and other women in the group understand and get it. It’s a judgment free zone where I can be me and fully accepted for who I am, for all my faults and failures and my accomplishments. Gave Her Strength When She Needed It BTR helped me to set and hold appropriate boundaries for my safety, which helped me to feel confident and empowered. The coaches and other women in the group give me validation to know I am not crazy, and that others have been through the same thing. I love being in the group and hearing other women’s stories and questions. And often they have the same questions I have, and sometimes questions I had, but I didn’t know that I had, or how to ask. And so many times the advice given to other women was just what I needed to hear. I’ve been doing BTR groups since the beginning, and it’s great to build that relationship with the coaches, and to have them tell me how much improvement and growth they have seen in me. BTR group is the friend I never had and needed so desperately. I have felt so alone for so many years. BTR came into my life when I needed them most, and to have the coaches with me through this journey of healing. I honestly can say I don’t know where I’d be without the BTR Group Sessions. I credit so much of my healing and strength to the coaches and other women in the group. BTR Group has helped me become a better person, healthier person, stronger, more confident, and empowered. The Horrific Experience of Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Betrayal Trauma Victim #4: I was going through a really ugly part of the divorce. I was dealing with a lot of very covert abuse, very mean and horrible to me and my younger daughter, but nice to everyone else. A family in our church took my 16 year old daughter and I into their home. She was going through some issues also. And she said, “You’ve got to attend BTR Group Sessions.” And, I started attending BTR Group Sessions and listening to BTR Podcasts, and was surprised at the connection with the pornography. It has the best betrayal trauma resources. I actually went to counseling. I’d been going to counseling for years, with my marital problems. And nobody had ever made that connection before. https://www.btr.org/best-betrayal-trauma-resources And when I brought it up to my therapist at Kaiser, she said, “Oh, that’s interesting. I’d never made that connection before.” And I just kept listening to BTR Podcasts and it was so intriguing. I hadn’t even thought about the connection of with coercive control. That hit me really hard. I think it gave me more validation because even though I really can’t confront him about that, we were on zero communication. It gave me a lot of validation to know that I’m not crazy, that no matter how this looks to everyone else, I’m suffering horribly and I’m not crazy. I appreciate the BTR podcast and the Group Sessions. It’s been invaluable to me, and I just thank you for it. I Learned Self Worth and Self Care Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #5: BTR was recommended to me by my counselor. She recommended that I get into group. She said it was important that I get into group while still seeing her. The great thing about BTR group sessions is how they’ve helped me. So you have all different coaches who bring with them all different areas expertise. I have found that when I get on these groups, I get all this coaching and support, and hearing other from other women’s experiences. It has helped me know that I’m not alone, because it is so easy to feel so alone in all this. One of the things that’s important is having safe people. If you have people around you that don’t necessarily understand your experience, you don’t feel safe. And BTR creates that safe environment. So the women in these groups are safe. You never feel judged. You’re not going to have people tell you how you should think or do. It’s completely safe. And while each woman’s experience is unique, we all share commonalities. And having that support helped me through the most traumatic relational experience in my life. She Experienced Betrayal Trauma In Her Relationship Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #6: I truly believe Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session s saved my life. I’ve made lifetime friends, the only ones who understand my feelings, who have gone through the same things. Each coach has their own special traits, and seeing the different views of the same subject or seeing things in different ways or suggestions helps make you feel safe. She Found Clarity After Years of Marriage Trauma Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #7: My husband was in recovery and having. All of these meetings each week and having all the help he needs and counseling. And I felt like I was being left out in the dark. I was at the end of my rope. So I started searching for something to help me. I found BTR. I decided that’s what would be best for me. So I started attending the group. I have found that having this group has been the best thing that ever happened to me. It has taught me what self care means. It’s taught me a lot of things about gaslighting and DARVO and things I’d never heard of before. They’ve helped me through a lot of really hard situations. The group has been so supportive . The women are amazing. Everyone has their own story to tell, but each person gets validation and support that they need and feedback from the coaches as well as each other. It’s been great to know that I’m not alone in this, that there’s other women who have struggled the same as I have, and that I can be there to support them, and they can be there to support me. She Finally Had A Name For Her Experience This group, I lean on it a lot. When I’m going through hard times, and I don’t understand everything happening with my addict, they help clarify situations for me, and give me options. They also give me a place to share, and I feel safe, and I’m not being judged. I just want to let others know how wonderful the BTR group has been for me, and I would recommend it for anyone who’s going through betrayal trauma , so they can learn and grow. I feel like I’ve learned and grown from the first time I attended to this day. I’ve learned self worth. I’ve learned what self care is, things that I didn’t even understand when I started attending Group Sessions. So I just want to thank all the coaches, everyone. Received Validation & Encouragement Betrayal Trauma Victim #8: I really appreciate how you validated everybody, first by listening, and then by encouraging them in their own insights and giving them, you know, advice. permission to do and be whatever they needed to at that moment. I have not experienced that with counseling, though I’ve been through a lot. Yeah, it’s been a trial. And so I recognize the uniqueness of it and it’s just amazing. To learn more, please check out our Group Schedule as well as The Living Free Workshop . https://youtu.be/oN42vaE6ZjA…

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What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again? – Shelly’s Story 36:33

9 weeks ago36:33

36:33

Women who have discovered their husband’s lies often wonder, “What if I can never trust my husband again?” The first step to knowing if you can trust your husband again is to determine the truth about what’s going on. It may be that he’s using invisible emotional abuse tactics. To uncover if his lying is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz . Getting Support While I Determine If I Can Trust My Husband Again Most women need support as they work to figure out what’s going on. To get support from women who understand, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Transcript: What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Shelly. She’s here to share her story of wondering what if she can ever trust her husband again? Welcome Shelly. Shelly: Hi, thank you. Anne: So Shelly has experienced betrayal trauma in multiple relationships. Let’s start at the beginning. Shelly: Okay, so I was actually born into betrayal trauma. I didn’t know that until recently. But my biological father cheated on my pregnant mother. So literally all that stuff in her body, all those hormones, feelings, and emotions when she was pregnant with me were going into me too, with so many me too examples . She sank into deep postnatal depression after my birth. And then, and obviously, betrayal trauma. And she couldn’t fully take care of me. My mother neglected me as a baby, not through any fault of her own. Because she wasn’t able to cope emotionally with what she was going through. When I turned seven, she met my stepdad. Who I didn’t trust. I had this sense that there was something wrong, even as a child. And later, when I was in my teens, he was also leading a double life. He watched pornography, and made advances towards some of my male friends. When I was a teenager. This led me to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Because a much older man groomed me in his forties when I was around sixteen. I believed I was in a relationship with him, but now I understand it was not, I was his victim. Teenage Trauma & Abuse Shelly: He abused me on every level you can imagine. He was an addict. And chose to use explicit material every day, like degrees beyond comprehension. He made no effort to hide this and was completely open about it. He humiliated me. I had betrayal trauma from infidelity . I was a young teenage woman, and he took photos of me and showed them around. Even now, I know they’re still in the world. Years later, after leaving him, I found out from friends that he’d shown them. He tried to make money off those, I don’t doubt that. I got pregnant at 19, and left him to protect my son. He beat me while I held him, this wasn’t unusual at all. He worsened the violence when I was pregnant. So when I had my son, I think I’d just turned 20, I was in the hospital for a week and he was having sex with someone else. I was with him for a very short time after that. And then I fled, and I left all my family and friends behind. And I left the county to try and find safety for my son. While learning to be a mother, I was also going through what I didn’t understand was PTSD, which I now understand. It was only years later that I understood this. Anne: Have you ever considered yourself a victim of trafficking with that man who took pictures of you and disseminated it as online? Shelly: I do now,. I was not comfortable. Because I saw the photos that he was like parading around, and you can see how uncomfortable I was. I have a son who’s not much younger than I was now. Grooming & Exploitation Shelly : I was a child, and he was friends with people in that world. I remember him saying to me, I could have you in prostitution if I wanted to. He said it like, I look after you so well, I’m not putting you into that world. Look how well I treat you. There was definitely the whole relationship, grooming, it was an abusive relationship. It was someone preying on someone who was young and naive. There are so many types of exploitation . Anne: Your story sounds similar to trafficking victims. They’re not aware of grooming. They think it’s a relationship, but they don’t realize he’s targeted them for this purpose. Shelly: A hundred percent, yeah. I’m aware of that now. But it took me a few years to, in fact it was fairly recently. I actually looked back and was like, that wasn’t a relationship. I was just, it was like trafficking. He used me and my body in any way he desired. He cheated me, lied, and now I’ve heard he’s in the industry. Shelly: Yeah, so I don’t have any contact with him. I disappeared, feared for my life, and ran away. Anne: He now is, but it sounds like he was at the time too. Shelly: Yeah, and he was around a lot of people in that sort of lifestyle. Anne: The exploitation business. Shelly: Exactly, he completely exploited me. I stayed there for four years with him through mental, emotional, physical, he’d used humiliation. He used to enjoy humiliating me in that way. It took a long time to get over. But then you can’t heal them. Finding Safety & New Relationships Shelly: You fall into another relationship and you’re abused again. Anne: I’m so sorry. That sounds awful. Shelly: Yeah, it was years later. So since I had my son, I was looking for a safe family. I just wanted to bring my children up in a happy home. So I fell into another relationship with a man I believed I loved. Later, I found out he’s a complete pathological liar. He wasn’t violent with me. So I thought I was safe, because of my experience before. I didn’t recognize what he was doing to me as abuse, but he was verbally vile to me a lot. He broke my identity apart. He told me who I was and who I wasn’t, and chipped away at me. He’d go out all night, not come home, be full of lies. I knew, my heart knew he wasn’t loyal to me. So because of my past, I thought I had trust issues. And the men I’ve been with have propagated this idea. They’re like, oh yeah, you’ve got trust issues. This is the damage that you’ve got because of your past. Anne: Did he tell you you had trust issues as a way to manipulate you? Shelly: Yeah, completely. At the end of the relationship, I turned into a detective. And found out I was still breastfeeding my daughter when he had an affair with someone else. And the way I found out was so horrific. I got an itemized phone bill, and there were thousands of the same number. My instincts told me something wasn’t right. So I got this itemized phone bill. I rang and a woman answered, and I just knew. He Tells So Many Lies Shelly: When I confronted him, the gaslighting went, like, through the roof. He pulled out all the stops. And so I called her with a completely open heart. And believed my husband lied to her too. Because I knew he was a liar, he was good at it. I’d seen him lie to people around us, and just think, like, why? I don’t understand why you’re lying about this stuff, when there’s no need to. He was just pathological with it, and I approached her. I messaged her. And said look, I believe he’s married and lying to you too. And she didn’t reply for a while, but then when she did, she sent me 17 screenshots of their messages together. I had a baby that was one years old, that I was breastfeeding. We’d not long been on our first family holiday. And he messaged this woman with my daughter sitting on his knee whilst we were on holiday. She verbally attacked me and called me every name under the sun. I approached her with no venom. He is lying to you as well. Because this is what’s actually happening. He is married. And she, the abuse I got off her was horrendous. She threatened my 16 year old son, messaged him and threatened him, she was awful. And, yeah, I lost a stone in two weeks after that. I stopped eating. I was in what I now know to be, strong betrayal trauma . My whole world was falling apart. My Friend Becomes My Partner Shelly: That’s when my now partner came along. I regarded him as a close friend. We’d been close for 20 years, even though we hadn’t seen each other all the time because we lived in different counties. He came along and he was like, he’s lying to you because he was pulling me back in. This guy twisted my head to the point where he called this other woman crazy, saying she was a stalker. He tried to pull me back in, and my sons, my oldest sons, said, mum, he’s lying to you. It was really hard to get out. It seemed like an orbit that I was in. I’d get so far away from him mentally and emotionally, and then he’d pull me back in. I’d be questioning what was real and what wasn’t. Again, my now partner helped so much with that. Maybe a year later, my now partner opened his mouth and confessed that he’d always had deep feelings for me, which I’d always felt deeply for him. We’d known each other for 20 years, so it was like, suddenly everything in me lit up. It was like everything switched. All my ex’s power over me went, and suddenly I was full of love and light. So, we had the most beautiful love story. I had a fairytale level love story, like star crossed love that had been going on for 20 years. Neither of us ever spoke about it. And we’d been in different relationships. We went to each other’s weddings as friends. There was never anything lustful. It was always deep heart, caring. We share children now from past relationships. Can I Ever Trust My Husband Again?Discovering Another Betrayal Shelly: So I actually felt for the first time in my entire life that true love healed me. And that everything I’d been through before was leading to this, and it was like trials of fire to get to the other side. Or the island in the ocean of where stormy weather doesn’t go, but I’d found my safe space, I’d found my person. Anne: I’ll quote a country song from Rascal Flatts, “God bless the broken road that led me safe to you”. Like all these things, they were worth it. Shelly: Yes, exactly, Anne: I found you. Shelly: Fast forward seven years, I find out that he’s hiding an addiction. I don’t actually believe it’s an addiction. He made a choice and hid it from me. The betrayal trauma I feel now is actually so much worse than anything I experienced before. Because he was the light at the end of the tunnel for me. And this relationship made me believe in true love again. And then, all that came crashing down on my first D-Day. https://youtu.be/CVU-eI3SgeQ I had many D-Days after the first admission. I thought I had damage and trust issues. That was my narrative that I’d believed. And I actually said to him, I’m so sorry I have trouble trusting you, of course I didn’t know if I could trust my husband after that. Because I’m damaged from my previous traumatic experiences with my other relationships, and even how I entered the world. And he took that, and he allowed me to believe it was me. So I felt uncomfortable leaving him. in the house on his own. Realizing The Extent Of The Lies Shelly: I felt uncomfortable with him at work, but I put it all down to trust issues. I’m damaged, I haven’t dealt with the trauma in my past, so I’m ruining my perfect relationship with my trust issues. Which actually everything I asked him, even at the points where I asked him, turned out to be true, and it was completely vindicated. So what has actually happened? So I was carrying this, I’ve got trust issues, I’m damaged for so long. I believed those people around me who were just lying. I released myself from that, and I woke up within myself and realized I don’t have trust issues. I’ve just been around loads of people lying to me, and I can feel it. Anne: Yeah, you have a superpower. Shelly: Yeah, suddenly that thing I’d been carrying for so many years has suddenly lifted. I’m not damaged, I’ve just been around people that have treated me really badly. Anne: Was that a relief to you in some ways? Shelly: I felt relief, because like I said, I thought I damaged my perfect relationship. So it was like a double edged sword. Anne: At the time, you were being manipulated to think that you had problems, that this was your fault, but now that you know the truth and look back. And you’re like, oh no, he was gaslighting me. He really was lying to me. Can you tell me more about why you didn’t want him at home by himself? Or why you were worried about him at work? Shelly: It was just a feeling. It was literally just a feeling. There was no concrete evidence at all. I didn’t have anything. He was very good at keeping that separate, completely separate. The Pain Of Gaslighting Shelly: I just had this nagging feeling, an uneasiness of him being at home alone, an uneasiness of him when he is at work. Anne: What an amazing gift… Shelly: Yeah, Anne: …to you. I’m so grateful that you were strong and brave, and nothing was wrong with you. Even if you had “trust issues”. Because, like, why trust people when they’re not trustworthy? Shelly: Exactly. Anne: But in this particular case, your warning system is going off, and now you’re more confident in it because you found out the truth. But to know that he was weaponizing that against you, that’s why it hurts so badly. Shelly: Yeah, and like being in a relationship where he would lecture me on trusting him and how important trust was within the relationship, knowing that he was lying to me. Anne: That is so devastating. That is absolutely, it’s so bad. Sorry, I don’t know why anyone can think this form of abuse is not severe. Shelly: No, I know. It’s abuse on every level. I described it as a spiritual crime to him. It feels like a spiritual crime against another soul. It goes so deep for me and everybody experiencing this. I don’t understand how anyone can literally look themselves in the mirror knowing everything they know about themselves. And just carry on like it’s fine. Anne: And I can see why that was the most traumatic, because you trusted him the most, and he lied to you on such an intimate level. Can I Trust My Husband Again: He Withheld Information Shelly: Yeah, I asked him, just plainly, often, whether he was using explicit material. And always he’d be like, No, I only have eyes for you. I only have eyes for you. It wasn’t like it just never came up. I asked him a lot because of these feelings, my instincts. So it was, there’s no, oh, I thought you’d be fine with it. It wasn’t that at all. He knew where I was with that. And he still chose to hide that from me. It seems pretty clear at this point that I couldn’t trust my husband again. Anne: Which is abusive on so many levels, especially on a intimate level, coercion. When women say, I feel like I was emotionally raped. Basically, and people are like, what, and we’re not kidding. That’s exactly what happened. Because we would not have maybe made those choices or done the things that we did. Had we had the information that they were purposefully withholding from us. Shelly: Exactly. And the coercion has only really crystallized for me quite recently. Because this has been going on for a year now. Anne: So it’s been a year since he told you. Shelly: The D-Days, yeah, I always say D-Days because there was so much that we took a long time for full disclosure. And it just got worse and worse, the things being disclosed. Seeking The Truth Anne: Tell me more about that. Was he disclosing them to you because of therapy or how did the other disclosures happen? Shelly: No, after the first disclosure, we tried to make it light. And smoked and was like, sometimes. I pulled away and was like, you said you never did that. Instantly my heart was broken. Then he started to lie and minimize, he said. It was only three times in our relationship that I’ve done that. The thing is, once I switched on to the fact that he was lying to me and had lied to me, I could see it, and I could literally see him snaking around in front of me, lying to me. It was my warning system, and not letting it go and saying things like you said this, and that doesn’t add up. And okay, tell me this then, so what is it? There’s more I could feel it, I could feel it in my body every time he was lying to me. And I could see it. So there were a lot of lies after the first admission. Who went through for about four months, maybe a bit more serious, like minimizing half truths. Outright lies with him shifting around and tripping himself up and saying something he hadn’t said before. Or saying opposite things, saying two different things, two different sides of one story. And I said to him, you’re not even allowing me to heal, because you’re not telling me the whole truth. So after four or five months of this. And I was on it, I was on fire. I was just calling it the BS knife, because I was so sharply cutting through all these lies, my husband couldn’t be trusted again. He Gives A Full Disclosure Shelly: It culminated in going away and staying in a hotel room. And he was like, okay, I’m gonna tell you everything. He literally listed everything from childhood, told me stuff like when I wasn’t around. About him looking at other women just gave me what I felt was a full story. And it was incredibly traumatic. Anne: Were you interested in that, or was this like a way of grooming you, or can you talk a little bit about that? Shelly: I wouldn’t leave it until I got the full story. I needed to know everything. I needed to know who I was with. And it felt like pulling the truth out of him. It was my instincts that were telling me, you’re still not telling me the truth. There’s more and more. We had many horrific bombs dropped in my lap, with more and more truth, it got worse and worse. Anne: So how are you feeling now? Shelly: Like I said, it’s been a year. I did have moments where I was like, I don’t even know if I can love you anymore after this level of lies. I don’t think I can trust my husband again. But because of the work he’s done, a lot of meditation. He had a lightbulb moment when we listened to something, and it said the body doesn’t know the difference between what the mind is thinking. So, if you’re reliving your trauma all the time, he compartmentalized and kept this in a separate dark box. And then he was the good dad and he was a good partner. In all the other boxes, he was full of light and this wonderful man, but then he had this dark box where he kept all that stuff. What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Partner’s Realization & Efforts Shelly: So he literally gave that energy to another person. When he’s supposed to be committed and loyal to me. My husband was proving I couldn’t trust him anymore. Anne: On that note, he’s “such a good dad.” It was a feeling that you had, that something wasn’t quite right. But I want to talk about the other types of abuse that you experienced for a minute, the gaslighting and the emotional and psychological abuse . Do you think that even though it wasn’t overt, because I guess he wasn’t screaming in your face, he wasn’t, overtly calling you names that would have been obvious to you. But do you think that might have been what you were picking up on? Even though you didn’t know that you were picking up on it because you couldn’t see it and couldn’t tell. But do you think that was what you were picking up on? Shelly: Yeah, I do. I reckon my instincts were warning me, and self protection was kicking in. Anne: So you and your partner were together in a committed relationship for how long when he disclosed his use? Shelly: Seven years. So it’d been going on for seven years. Anne: Why did he disclose it? That’s a question I always ask, because they could be repentant at this point where they’re like, oh my word, I can’t live like this anymore. I’ve got to come clean. I’ve got to change. That’s a possibility. There’s also a possibility where they want to hurt you. I’m not saying that’s your situation, and I’m not trying to convince you of that. Why Disclose Now? Anne: In my case, when my ex-husband was in addiction recovery, and was doing so well. Then near the end, there was a sudden turn where he started telling me he was using. Before that, he was lying to me about it. When I look back, I’m like, I think he might have been having an emotional affair. There was something going on, and he wanted me to be the cause of the demise of our marriage. And so he was like, starting to be overtly aggressive and abusive. And then also just tell me he was using, because he knew that was a deal breaker for me. And so that’s one of the questions I want women to think about is why now, because that might help as we’re trying to heal or determine, what do I want to do? Is this safe for me? Is it not safe for me to ponder that question? If my husband lied to me the whole time, why is he telling me the truth now? Shelly: So I questioned him on that, and he said he felt it was getting to a point where it was out of control . He didn’t ever feel good about himself, because of what he was doing and living this double life. But he was scared to tell me the whole lot in one go. He didn’t have the strength to tell me everything in one go. I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me. It seemed like he was lightly slipping the truth in. And then he was like, now I’ve got all hell to deal with. So then he was trying to backtrack and minimize, and giving me non-truth and half truth. How could I ever trust him again after this? Can Ever Trust My Husband Again? I Think He Wanted To Change Shelly: So I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me with that. And I think that he, maybe subconsciously, wanted to change. I hope that’s the case. I definitely don’t believe he was using that to try and hurt me, because he’s not vindictive in that way, and he always wanted to look after me. He knew me in these past relationships, he was my friend, and he came along like this knight in shining armor. And just wanted to protect me. Then had this realization that he’d been exactly the same, and which he’s actually struggled with. We’ve spoken in great depth about the conditioning and objectification of humans. But obviously from this perspective, he was part of that, and he’s horrified with himself, and I believe that’s genuine. He was in groups of friends that were, it was just normal, it was just, this is what guys do, it’s just normal. That might be fine. If you’re in a relationship and you’re fine with that, then that’s fine. But this isn’t, and it wasn’t, and he chose that because he knew my stance on that. He knew he was lying to me, so this wasn’t normal and okay. And to consenting people and the coercion thing, realizing that I hadn’t been giving full consent. We’ve also spoken about that a lot, so he’s horrified with himself. Which I think is good. But, does that change whether or not I can trust him again? Anne: Yeah, that is good. Challenges In Counseling Anne: I wondered about therapy. In my opinion, the likelihood of it worsening is too risky. Shelly: I had the exact same feeling, actually. I wasn’t sure that any form of counseling would be helpful. Because of the tendency in society to normalize this stuff, and as long as you’re not physically cheating with someone else, then what’s the problem? Anne: You’re like, oh, the lying. But yeah. Shelly: Yeah, I was very apprehensive about any form of counseling. We went to the doctors, he wanted me to come with him. We sat with him. A female doctor, and he started talking and breaking down. He said he didn’t understand how he could do this to me. And struggled with his mental health and self perception. He was advised to take counseling. And they offered him a woman counselor on a screen, video calling, and I was like, I’m not comfortable with that. I’m not comfortable with that at all. We’re like, we’re talking about, you’re looking at women on the screen. I’m not comfortable with you having counseling with a woman on a screen. That’s like in this space, I don’t feel safe with that. So he requested a man, and luckily he did end up with a really. good counselor who he was able to express where he was with in a safe place without it being normalized. I felt I was on my way to trusting him again. And the lady doctor, when we went together, she said, do you want me to point you in the direction of addiction services? And he was like, I don’t actually think I have an addiction. It’s more of a choice that I decided to stop, where he didn’t go down that route. Validation & Healing Shelly: We both had counseling separately and thought about couples therapy. But again, my instincts were not fully on that either. So we haven’t, we’ve done a lot of work together just between us, in meditations, and in just hearing each other. A lot of it’s been me, speaking my heart and my pain. Sometimes, he’s struggled to deal with the anger, because he’s got a tendency to defend himself. So he’s working through that now. But his determination to make it right has given me hope and stuck me here. Actually, the full disclosure of everything he did, he could have easily not told me, is that it’s been the truth that’s kept us together. Anne: Can you talk about your journey to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery and want to share your story? Shelly: I was talking to him and I said to him, there’s so much help for you, that it literally feels like there’s no help for me. It was only recently that I’d found out that this sort of trauma has a name. And then I was starting to look into betrayal trauma , and then connecting all the dots from the rest of my life previously. It was actually him that was looking for ways to help me, and he discovered your podcast. And the first one he found was women saying, “This is the best way to heal from betrayal trauma.” And he was like, I want you to listen to this. And that was how I found you. I wanted to share my story, because I think that is another step forward in healing in our journey. Putting this out because I’ve kept it very close to my heart and it’s been hard. What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Finding Support & Community Anne: As part of your journey to healing, to find a community with women who have been through this? Who all worry about if they can trust their husband again. Shelly: And feeling so validated in a world that normalizes this stuff and it’s everywhere. Feeling so validated for feeling so strongly about this and feeling so heartbroken about this. That validation has given me so much. There are other women wondering if they can trust their husbands . Anne: Let’s talk about that validation for a minute. Can you talk about the difference in knowing that women are horrified and traumatized? And they’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse on these intense levels. And that almost all society doesn’t recognize this type of trauma. What’s your feeling now that you realize you’ve been completely normal and that there are so many other women who feel the way you do? Shelly: I feel like there’s an army of women out there that I’m part of. Before, I felt isolated and we would talk to friends. It would be like, I didn’t speak about this, about my personal experience with friends, but just in conversation. Oh yeah, as long as they’re not cheating and come back to you at the end of the night. It’s the validation that this actually affects people much more than is spoken about. Because people don’t talk about it. It’s giving it a voice. Anne: And that’s why I do this podcast to give women like you the opportunity to share your story, share how you feel, share how this affected you. Belief It’s Possible To Trust My Husband Again Shelly: Yeah, that is a powerful thing. That’s a powerful thing, because before I knew of my emotions, I felt like I was on my own in that. I wasn’t, there are many others who also wonder what if they can trust him again. Anne: I am so grateful that you’re a member of our community and supporting me in my healing process. I am honored and have been honored through the years to hear all these stories. Women who share these stories are in a vulnerable place, and it’s such an honor to like, sit with you. I know I was in the same spot. Maybe a different spot, because my husband’s character, was deceptive. I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, about how I believe people can change. And, that makes this job hard, right? Because how do we know if someone is or isn’t when they’ve lied to you all these years, right? How can you tell if you can trust him? So that place where you are right now in your healing process is a vulnerable spot, but it is okay to be there. And there’s no way to get out of it other than to go through it, because you want to make the right decision for you and your family. And we get that. Shelly: Yeah, and you have to feel every layer of grief to release yourself from it. And it’s a hard thing to face, because it’s not anything that anyone would choose to feel. But that, the only way out is to go in, and that’s the process I’m in. And it feels like I’ve been doing it forever now. Reflections On Change & Trust Anne: Hopefully not forever, right? It’s been so interesting. My process, I feel so good now. But there were, I don’t know, 14 years where I felt like this is going to be forever. So I totally understand. I wondered if I could trust him again, and found out I couldn’t. Shelley, if you’re willing to come back and share how you’re doing in six months to a year. I would love to have you come back on and share what’s going on, what you’ve learned through the process. So if you’re willing to do that, I would love to talk to you again. Shelly: Yeah, definitely up for that, yeah. Anne: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and keep in touch. Shelly: Yeah, I will do, thank you.…

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Betrayal Trauma In Marriage, When It’s Not Getting Better – Nikki’s Story 25:47

10 weeks ago25:47

25:47

Many women have a difficult time finding the right support for betrayal trauma and emotional & psychological abuse.

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Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help? with Nicole Bedera 44:37

11 weeks ago44:37

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When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You – How To Deal With His Chaos 29:51

12 weeks ago29:51

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There is no fear or pain equivalent to the trauma when your ex uses the kids to hurt you.

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I Think My Husband Is Lying To Me – Stacey’s Story 44:10

13 weeks ago44:10

44:10

Things aren't adding up. Here's what that blank stare might mean.

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Is My Husband Toxic? – When You Discover His Double Life 57:47

14 weeks ago57:47

57:47

Is your husband toxic if he lies to you and uses material that's toxic to women?

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Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict – Natalie’s Story 45:58

15 weeks ago45:58

45:58

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The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms – When You Can’t Get The Right Help 40:18

16 weeks ago40:18

40:18

Do you have betrayal trauma symptoms? Check to see if you're experiencing any of these common symptoms.

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Here’s How To Tell If Your Emotionally Abusive Husband Will Change – Cece’s Story 49:13

17 weeks ago49:13

49:13

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When Your Husband Apologizes – How To Know If It’s Genuine 23:14

18 weeks ago23:14

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Does your husband apologize? If it's happened before, here's how to know if it's a genuine apology.

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Warning Signs Of An Abusive Therapist: Amy’s Story 48:49

19 weeks ago48:49

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The Best Way To Heal After Emotional Abuse 11:35

20 weeks ago11:35

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What Does Spiritual Bypass Mean? Tracy’s Story 53:18

21 weeks ago53:18

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Why is My Husband Constantly On His Phone? – The Research 1:04:37

22 weeks ago1:04:37

1:04:37

If your husband is constantly on the phone, here's what you need to know.

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Why Won’t My Husband Fight For Our Marriage? – Kirsten’s Story 41:04

23 weeks ago41:04

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Does your husband make big promises but refuse or "forget" to follow through?

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When Your In-Laws Are Emotionally Abusive Too – Tanya’s Story 37:24

24 weeks ago37:24

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Tania share's her difficult story of living through serious harm from her husband. All while her in-laws are emotionally abusive too.

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5 Ways To Spot Narcissistic Abuse – Rachel’s Story 44:49

25 weeks ago44:49

44:49

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What Is A Secret Sexual Basement? Why His Secrets Are Dangerous 15:41

26 weeks ago15:41

15:41

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This is Why You’re Not Codependent – Felicia’s Story 48:25

27 weeks ago48:25

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Emotional & Psychological abuse victims "mimic" codependent traits: this is why you're not codependent. Read on to learn more.

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Do I Have Betrayal Trauma? 26 Symptoms 14:17

28 weeks ago14:17

14:17

When your intimate partner violates your trust, you may experiencing betrayal trauma. Learn the 26 symptoms.

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How Do I Know If My Husband Is Abusive? – Coach Jo’s Story 36:38

29 weeks ago36:38

36:38

Have you wondered, "how do I know if my husband is abusive" See if you relate to Coach Jo's story.

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14 Emotional Abuse Survivor Stories 14:10

30 weeks ago14:10

14:10

Women who've experienced their husband's emotional abuse share their stories. Find out what helped them.

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Voicing The Agony of Betrayal Trauma Through Music – Ralynne’s Story 25:48

31 weeks ago25:48

25:48

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My Husband Lied To Me: Call For D-Day Stories 7:59

32 weeks ago7:59

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Can A Husband Sexually Abuse His Wife? – Sandy’s Story 37:29

33 weeks ago37:29

37:29

Sandy's husband abused her by secretly recording and posting intimate videos of her online. Learn how she came to recognize it as abuse.

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When Your Narcissist Ex Won’t Leave You Alone – Lee’s Story 39:41

34 weeks ago39:41

39:41

You CAN make your way to safety, even if it feels impossible. Learn more here.

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Why THIS Is Adultery – Anne’s Mom Weighs In 9:22

35 weeks ago9:22

9:22

It's also emotional and psychological abuse.

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Women Say THIS Is The Best Support For Betrayal Trauma 16:42

36 weeks ago16:42

16:42

After years of being blamed by professionals, women are talking about the best support for betrayal trauma. Listen to their stories.

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Here’s Why My Husband’s Infidelity Qualifies As Abuse – Kathleen’s Story 33:56

37 weeks ago33:56

33:56

If your husband participates in a secret life, whether it's online or in person, it's traumatizing. Here's why.

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If People Say Marriage is a Hard Work, Here’s What They Don’t Know 35:49

38 weeks ago35:49

35:49

A lot of people say marriage hard. What if marriage is easy and you're facing something else?

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Has Your Husband Betrayed You? You Are Not Alone – Miss C’s Story 1:11:50

39 weeks ago1:11:50

1:11:50

If your husband betrayed you, you're not alone. Other women have been through this and can support you.

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How To Recognize Victim Blaming – Jenna’s Story 33:03

40 weeks ago33:03

33:03

Victim blaming is rampant in the abuse and betrayal community. When others blame you for HIS choices, you are harmed. BTR can help.

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7 Truths About Emotional Abuse You Need To Know 21:10

41 weeks ago21:10

21:10

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Divorcing A Narcissist – June Checks In One Year Later 1:06:34

42 weeks ago1:06:34

1:06:34

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He Blamed ME For The Emotional Abuse – June’s Story 1:25:22

43 weeks ago1:25:22

1:25:22

When June's husband said it was her fault she was emotionally abused, here's what she did to protect herself.

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How to Live with a Husband You Don’t Trust – Cristy’s Story 19:27

44 weeks ago19:27

19:27

If you've just found something on his phone, and now don't trust him, you'll relate to this.

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How to Deal With a Narcissistic Husband: 5 Tips 34:23

45 weeks ago34:23

34:23

A narcissistic husband can make marriage a nightmare. Dr. Ramani Durvasula is offering expert advice for women married to narcissistic husbands.

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My Husband Says I’m The Problem. Is He Right? – J.R.’s Story 55:08

46 weeks ago55:08

55:08

My husband said I was the problem, so I went to therapy and made the changes he wanted. Here's what I learned.

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How To Stop Emotional Abuse From Husband (Or Ex) – 5 Stages 32:33

47 weeks ago32:33

32:33

If you're trying to stop your husband (or ex's) emotional abuse, here are 5 stages you need to know.

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Surviving Narcissistic Abuse – Diane’s Story 20:06

48 weeks ago20:06

20:06

Learning how to survive narcissistic abuse can help victims find safety and begin healing.

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How Long Does It Take To Heal From Emotional Abuse? 23:15

49 weeks ago23:15

23:15

Recovering from your husband's emotional abuse is a journey. There are strategies to speed healing. Here are 3 things to consider.

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3 Ways Narcissists Groom Victims – Chelsea’s Story 31:57

50 weeks ago31:57

31:57

Narcissistic abusers will do whatever they can develop and maintain a power-over dynamic. Learn 3 ways that narcissistic abusers groom victims.

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How to Find the Best Betrayal Trauma Support Group: 5 Things to Know 26:00

51 weeks ago26:00

26:00

Wondering where to find the best betrayal trauma support group? Women share their insights and experiences.

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What is Marital Coercion? – Karen’s Story 25:32

52 weeks ago25:32

25:32

If your husband lies to you, this will help give you clarity.

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Types of Exploitation – A Conversation with Anne Basham 40:57

1 year ago40:57

40:57

One of the types of exploitation is so common most people don't know how harmful it is.

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When Your Husband Uses Spiritual Abuse – Coach Sharon’s Story 55:26

1 year ago55:26

55:26

This subtle yet destructive behavior undermines a victim’s faith, self-worth, and autonomy.

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Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG podcast artwork

1
The Best Way To Explain Betrayal Trauma 26:00

1 year ago26:00

26:00

Here's the best way to explain betrayal trauma.

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Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG podcast artwork

1
5 Ways To Help The Child Of A Narcissist – Rose’s Story 23:49

1 year ago23:49

23:49

Narcissistic fathers harm children, but victims can rise up and guide their children to safety and healing.

B

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG podcast artwork

1
Can My Husband Change? 9 Things To Observe 27:46

1 year ago27:46

27:46

What are the 9 signs your husband is changing?

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Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG podcast artwork

1
Is My Husband Emotionally Abusive? – Brandi’s Story 37:04

1 year ago37:04

37:04

Here's how to know if your experiencing emotional abuse.

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Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG podcast artwork

1
Yes, Lying Is Emotional Abuse: Here’s Why – Kelly’s Story 42:25

1 year ago42:25

42:25

Yes, lying IS considered emotional abuse. Anne interviews Kelly, a victim of emotional abuse. Her story illustrates why lying IS emotional abuse.

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