Y-Vonne Hutchinson: The Author talks race, inequality, tourism, and securing our future.

Dream Nation Love

Y-Vonne Hutchinson is an Author, former international human rights lawyer, and Silicon Valley serial entrepreneur. She is the CEO and Founder of ReadySet, a diversity and inclusion training firm that helps tech giants, political leaders, media outlets, and Fortune 500 companies speak more productively about racism and turn talk into action. Y-Vonne also hosts a podcast called Time To Act about Diversity and Inclusion.

On the show, we talk about her latest book HOW TO TALK TO YOUR BOSS ABOUT RACE: Speaking Up Without Getting Shut Down. This episode is a conversation on race, inequality, and how race is fluid. A candid discussion from a global perspective that leaves the viewer with concrete advice that they can use in their work life.

Part memoir, part actionable guidebook, this book equips employees with a framework to think about race at work, prepares them to have frank and effective conversations with more powerful leaders, helps them center marginalized perspectives, and explains how to leverage power dynamics to get results while navigating backlash and gaslighting.

Transcript

Yulia Laricheva 00:04

Hey friends, welcome to another episode of Dream Nation Love. I'm your host Julia. And today on the show, I've got Yvonne Hutchinson. She's the CEO and founder of Ready Set. And that is an Equity Diversity and Inclusion firm based out of Berkeley, California, previous to running ReadySet. She was an International Human Rights and Labor Lawyer. She did that for over a decade. And she consulted for foreign national governments, the US Department of State, the UN, she's brilliant, and she has a new book out, and it's called How To Talk To Your Boss About Race: Speaking Up Without Getting Shut Down. It's also available on audiobook and it's a really quick read, it tackles really taboo topics like race. And what I really love about it is that she really brings in her law background into it. And she mentions a lot of cases that go towards dealing with race and race at work. I really enjoyed her writing. It's amazing. So you should check it out. It's a quick read. It's a it's a dense book, but it's a quick read, and it's quite enjoyable. So I hope you enjoyed the discussion as well. We talked about a lot of really, really interesting topics, and share this podcast with a friend if you enjoyed it. Also subscribe for the newsletter, which is on Dream Nation Love website, which is dreamnation.io. And also if you go to the dream nation love Instagram page, which is Dream Nation Love, subscribe to the newsletter, I'm going to be giving away a few copies of the book, enjoy the show and talk to you soon. Hi Y-Vonne, and thank you for being on the podcast. Thank you for writing your book.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 01:33

Oh, thank you so much for having me. And I'm really, really happy that you enjoy that.

Yulia Laricheva 01:38

I have your book right here. It's a really great book. And it's very pertinent. Yeah, because it talks about the pandemic, and it talks about everything that collided in the pandemic. So that's what I really enjoyed about it. Because I'm like, wow, this is like probably the most current book that I've read about race and race relations and, and how to navigate work.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 01:58

Yeah, I mean, I feel like we're in such a period of transition and change. In the book, I say that it's of its time, but it's also timeless, like these issues have been here since the founding of this country, and they're not going to go away overnight. And so, in a lot of ways, a lot of the things we talk about in the book are timeless at the same time, like you said, it's very much of its time, we're seeing just a fundamental shift in the way that we relate to our work, the way we talk about race in our country, and the collision between identity. And the workplace, or I should say they've always been we've always collided, but I guess the sort of recognition that you can't check your identity at the door when you go to work. And the fact that workplaces are really having to figure out how do we grapple with these sort of deeply embedded societal ills that impact our workers after they walk through our doors?

Yulia Laricheva 02:55

You right, or they just log on to zoom too.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 02:58

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Yulia Laricheva 02:59

It's like, you know, nobody really talks about which is really interesting is also like, the backgrounds and the houses to peek into during a zoom on a huge conference call that shows societal structures. I'm not gonna mention which company it was. But you can see where like, my boss logs in from his like, amazing kitchen, you know, they're like tiny apartments and you're like, you're burly probably should think a different room just to like, not flaunt it, just to be considerate.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 03:25

Yeah, I talk a lot about those blurred lines right there. I feel like there's almost this kind of like, artificial sense that we can separate who we are outside of work. And especially with the rise of remote work, the boundaries between personal and professional are even more blurred like you just, it's not like I can strip away my identity when I'm talking to you from my kitchen. Like we're literally in my apartment in my kitchen, with this little zoom background thing that I have set up. So it looks acceptable. But there's no way that I can take my identity out of my home. And I think that's what I think is so interesting when we have these conversations about identity and work because like you're saying the slides are just even more blurred now.

Yulia Laricheva 04:13

Oh, my gosh, I can go on because it's a conversation at itself. So I'm like, Oh, my gosh, there are so many points to talk about. But I want to bring it back to your book. Back to your work. I was gonna ask you my first question is always, what was your dream as a kid growing up?

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 04:28

So when I was a kid, I used to say, and maybe this is still possible, who knows that they wanted to be vice president. I said being the president was too much pressure, but don't want to be the person in front. Too much scrutiny. But I was like, I could be vice president. And then if I decided I wanted to be president, then I could run for president. So that was my dream as a kid. It's still kind of my dream.

Yulia Laricheva 04:53

It's a wonderful dream. Your priorities.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 04:57

Yeah, it's like those kids who all want to be rested. If they're really missing the vote Vice President is where it’s at.

Yulia Laricheva 05:04

You get the same benefits really.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 05:06

I get to be around the White House, I can pick and choose what initiatives I want to be.

Yulia Laricheva 05:12

I think that's what Biden did. And I'm pretty sure Dick Cheney ran the place when Bush was —

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 05:20

I'm gonna talk about any specific politician. I'm just gonna say that playbook has been executed before. And I would also like to execute it.

Yulia Laricheva 05:29

You are a Lawyer, and you're much more diplomatic about it than I am. I love it. I love it. That's such a great dream. I would love to see that dream come true.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 05:38

Me too.

Yulia Laricheva 05:38

It's a wonderful dream.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 05:40

2040. Lecture, you're right, big enough.

Yulia Laricheva 05:45

You know what we'll make it? We'll figure it out. I was gonna ask you this question, which is like a really open ended question that I think you answered, so lovely in your book, which was its own chapter. It's such a hard question to answer. What is race?

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 06:02

It's funny how that that came into the book actually give a little bit of backstory. So writing this whole book about racism in the workplace, there's a section in which you have to like, we're defining what the terms are. They have it all written and like the chapter is actually done, my editor came back to me, she was like, why fine. I think we actually have to define race. And I was like, no, because it's such a big term. So I just like kind of sit with it and wrestle with it. And I think it's big because race is a socially constructed thing, right? What is it to be Black? Is my daughter Black? Shoot her mother's African American? Her father is Latino and White? Is she bBlack? Is she Latino? What is Latino, there's something like, you can be white Latino you can be. And so whenever you try to whenever I try to come up with a definition to describe something that's socially constructed and malleable, right, because when we think historically, Italians haven't always been white, Irish people haven't always been white. They're definitely white today. But that wasn't the case. I reflect back on the controversy with Whoopi Goldberg. And the view that just happened where she said the Holocaust wasn't about race. And part of what makes that conversation so difficult, is that Jewish identity and race are like racist fluid, not just with Jews with everyone, race is fluid. And so a group can be considered racially constructed one day and not racially constructed the next it serves political purposes. That's why we have the racial categories that we do. In a lot of ways I talked about people's reactions to my race, and how race is determined by path, because it doesn't exist objectively in the world. I'm Black in the US. I'm not Black when I go to Ghana, I'm something else if I go to South Africa, America, and if I go to Jamaica, right, because it's socially constructed, because it's malleable, because it's fluid. I talk about its impact on my life, because it definitely also determined so the kind of life I'm able to lead and how people react to me. So that's how I describe race in the book as the thing that is socially constructed, but has very real world implications. You can say racist made up all day, but when I walk out on the streets, I'm going to be treated like a black woman. If I'm in a store, people follow me, you know what I mean? I've had cops pull me in my mom over, when we've been in a neighborhood that's too nice. The world treats me like a Black woman. There go. I am Black, for the purposes of the world, who I am innately. I'm also Black innately, because that has, you know, formulated my conception of myself, and how I see myself visa vie other people. But it's so hard to read, explain, in part, because it's so cool. It's just, like catching, it's like catching water.

Yulia Laricheva 09:02

And I think your book does such a lovely job of it too. Just sharing your experience as well. Because your experience made me think of my experience because I'm Jewish, and my family survived the Holocaust only because we're white passing because we happen have blue eyes, and blonde hair, where the rest of my family has dark hair and dark eyes. And I don't really know how my mom's side got blue eyes. Like we don't know where it goes. But it's somehow helped us escape the Holocaust. But it's like, I think also like when people hear the conversation about race, they're, they're so nervous. Yeah. Because they're like, oh, which races is gonna be is this going to be black lives matter? What is this gonna be like? But it's so broad, and it's just a conversation about humanity. I think your book answers and I think it's such a nervous topic, especially at work. Yeah. Your book reminded me of all the crappy places that I It worked and all the crap that I've put up with and all the crap that I've seen, and all the stuff that I've spoken out as much as I could about, but also like how taboo it is, and how hard it is to change these systems that you enter, and you have to go in and make money. And there's nowhere to go until you quit and then go to a different place. It's just as bad.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 10:21

Yeah, I mean, that's part of why I wrote the book, right? Like, I think you hit the nail on the head with, we have to change these systems. I think it's so hard for us as individuals grappling with concepts that like, frankly, our education system, and society doesn't teach us to grapple with. I talk a lot about trying to ignore my blackness early on in my career. And in my childhood, in part because that was the message that I was taught, Be colorblind, racism, that important. And you know, I grew up in a majority white environment, and I wanted to believe it. I wanted to believe I could achieve my way out of blackness. And so I didn't, I say all of that to say I didn't grow up, really learning about how to talk about these things. I we had conversations about race at home, because my parents grew up during the Civil Rights Movement. And they tried to equip me for navigating race in the real world. And a lot of times, I try to push those aside, like, I was uncomfortable for me, I didn't want to admit, that was going to determine some of my outcomes in life. So I think that's fair to say that it is, it's taboo. And it's hard to talk about on purpose. And I wrote this book, in part to try to take away some of that taboo, because it is just a fact of life at this stage. We can't put our heads in the sand and pretend like this is not happening, like race doesn't impact us. And racial violence isn't real. And we also, I also want to give people the tools to say, Okay, if it's real, how do I navigate it? How do I really try to change a system as one person for the better?

Yulia Laricheva 11:52

That brings me to my next question, which is, how can one person create a systemic change at work, which is what you talked about in the book, and you provide tools, and this is probably the most comprehensive guide I've seen in a very long time. And I was like, Oh, wow, I didn't realize like, I could do that. I didn't realize I could, oh, this is a manual. This is a manual on how to like, use your voice.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 12:16

Yeah, I really tried to make it actionable and practical in that way. Because I feel I felt so many times going to like books and looking for an answer, and not getting really getting something that felt concrete. And that was why I wanted to write this because I wanted to give people concrete tools. When I think about the framework for social change for cultural change within a system. Those tools are definitely part of it. And to answer the first part of the question, but I also think about what is the work that we need to do, my framework is like, start off with a self work. Think about your identity, how that impacts how you show up to places what you may see what you may miss, and how others may hear you, you know, on the basis of that, think about your location and how you can leverage it to think strategically, what is your own power? How do you move from thinking about power as a binary, like if I have it versus if I don't have it towards more of a spectrum in terms of what types of power do I hold, like doing that introspection first. And then the second thing I always recommend is remember, as an individual trying to change the system, like you're not, you shouldn't go at this alone. So it's really trying to, in some ways, it's kind of a switch up, because I really want people to move away from thinking about individualistic approaches to systemic change, which is often what society teaches us to think about, you know, they highlight individuals that change systems, they highlight Martin Luther King, and Rosa Parks, and Susan B, Anthony. And they don't necessarily talk about the machines, the collectives that people who are behind those individuals. So I always say to, after you've done those, that reflection that is all in service of you contributing to a larger hole, and really acting as part of a group to an act, some of the changes that you want to see in the workplace. And then we get more into like the strategic parts of the work as well. And I really wanted to nail that down. Because a lot of this cultural change work, we tend to think of it as a emotional or intuitive, a neat, like we something we innately know how to do we'll know how to innately know how to do this at all anymore, that I'm innately know how to program a computer. Changing an organizational culture is not innate to us either. So really thinking about what are some practical tools that we can use to be more strategic in our culture change efforts?

Yulia Laricheva 14:43

And I think that it's so great in the book, they use examples of like, how Google use the and how it's really interesting to see what's going to happen with Tesla right now. It's, oh, gosh, oh, gosh. Yeah. So it's interesting too. See what change happens and what change won't happen. And I really love that you have a lawyer backgrounds, you're really able to put a lot of cases into context, which I was not aware about. I was like, Oh, my gosh. And then I read the section about Lyft, that you mentioned that Lyft was trying to get all their workers classified as freelance workers. And I remember that happening. But I didn't realize they were doing that just so they don't have to pay them health care. And I was like, Oh, my gosh, that's wild. So you have all these amazing real world examples. You just taught me a bunch of things I do not know about. And I was like, wow, this is fascinating.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 15:37

Yeah, I tried to ground it in the real world. And I, I usually shy away from real world examples, because I don't want to single people out, like with lift on the worker classification cases. They were opposing EB five Legislation in California, which is legislation that would have pushed rideshare workers to be classified as full time employees. And when you have full time employees, that means you have to pay their benefits, such as health care. So all these and Lyft wasn't the only one that was fighting that particular legislation, a lot of rideshare delivery on demand. Companies did not want to have their workers classified in this way. And they were doing that also during the pandemic, while they were saying their workers were essential workers, which is it going to going to be but but but those examples aside, I think it's super important for us to really ground what we see with real world examples, because quite often the way this manifests how racism manifests at work is incredibly nuanced. And it intersects with a lot of other isms, like classism, sexism, homophobia, and so I think it's really important to say, No, that wasn't just a one off, or no, that wasn't just like somebody who misspoke. These are part of broader systemic issues. And you know, to organizations where we've seen it come up recently, like these, this is a pattern of behavior, too, you mentioned Tesla, I'm also mindful of the lawsuit with the NFL, this is a pattern of these kinds of allegations, these kinds of until there is a defense, there's definitive accountability, and there's an incentive to fix them, these patterns are going to continue.

Yulia Laricheva 17:23

And you go into this really well into your book to just like, what brings about change, financial costs and stuff like that. And that was fascinating. And I was gonna ask you the question of, how does one talk to their boss about racism, which is the title of your book, and it's also like the most intimidating title ever, because you're like, I am gonna get fired?

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 17:48

Well, so that's why I do a lot of lead up to the actual conversation. Like I said, I think the conversation has to be part of a broader strategy of like, how you're actually going to change your culture. And I think every boss is different. And so for me to come out and say, This is everything you have, it might not apply to your boss. But what I tell people generally is, first of all, do that background work, the self knowledge work, finding a group of or like finding a group of people who are doing that work in the company, seeing what conversations have already happened. And then really understand your boss. I think, a lot of times, we who are really passionate about the stuff, we come in with our passion first, which is great, but we don't always serve ourselves. If we're not also being mindful of the motivations of the person that we're talking to the constraints that they may have, what they're empowered to do, and where their biases may be. So I think it's really important to hold that as well. So having knowledge of the person that you want to talk to a mirror and symptoms is really important, too. I also talk about practicing your case for Dei. So really think about what is going to resonate with your boss, not just what makes sense. We've been doing the business case for Dei, for like 2030 years, not a lot has changed. The business case has been in place since the 90s. Right. And so even though rationally we know dei produces better outcomes over time, it's something that's a sticking with organizations or with individuals inside of organizations with that particular case, they don't just go with a case that's rational makes sense. People aren't always rational, you need to go with a case that's going to resonate with the person you talk to whether that's a risk based case, like we don't want to be the next Starbucks or the next Tesla or you know, at this point. If it's a liability case, we don't want to get sued. If it's a social change, like we want to be at the forefront of this, whatever your case is for your company. Think about that. Make sure you're creating a good container for conversation so devote enough time to the conversation as much as possible. Understanding this conversation is an emotionally charged thinking How to de charge yourself emotionally, right. Because when we get to too much of an emotional place, our fight or flight response gets activated. And it can be really hard for us to listen, actively listen to someone, and respond to them in a thoughtful and considered way, which is exactly what you need to do in this conversation. So, practice to do that. Take deep breaths, be mindful, meditate, allow yourself enough time, minimize distractions. So like, if you're on a zoom call, put your phone away, if you're in person, shut the laptop, really focus on having that face to face conversation. Actively listen, show your listening by repeating what your boss says, processing that with your boss in real time, and then know how to navigate fragility. I talk about this a lot in my book, he's like, you could have this conversation perfectly. Quite often this happens. We go in, we're vulnerable. We take a growth mindset, we listen. But all the person on the other side of conversation hears is I'm calling you're racist, you're racist, racist, racist, racist, right? And they respond in a way that can be very emotional, can derail a conversation, that can feel like retaliation or actually be retaliation, we also have to be prepared for that. And we have to know when to take breaks from the conversation and when to walk away from the conversation altogether. And if this conversation, hopefully goes, well, then we also have to know how to follow up. So I talked about all of those things in my book, but that's kind of the basic framework that I lay out.

Yulia Laricheva 21:36

And I love how you add that it's all about creating action. It's not about just having a conversation, it's about carrying through with action and holding people accountable that they create these actions, and you outline everything, and you come to an agreement over actions. And that's how change happens. Because it doesn't happen. We're just talking

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 21:54

less, right. That's right. And, you know, when I, when I wrote the book, and I was talking about this idea actually had a little bit of resistance, I feel like a lot in dei work, there is an emphasis on the conversation, like, we just gotta have tough conversations and things will change. And what I came to with the book is that you cannot have change without conversation, it's more than just a conversation. But a conversation is going to be what opens the door, and what sets you up to take these actions. And so often in my work with ReadySet, I'm the CEO of a TTI, firm, Ready Set. And we've worked with hundreds of companies up into this point. And a lot of that work informs the experience that I bring to the book. But where I feel like a lot of times our initiatives don't go well or we need to like change courses when the communication is actually not there. So it is such an intricate process where you need the action with every action has to be accompanied with intentional, compassionate. And I would say like proactive communication,

Yulia Laricheva 22:59

this book is a part of the work that you do, and you have a company. And I was going to ask you, like, what are some conversational techniques that you can share? That maybe you do already set and that you've also included in the book that can help people start these conversations? And of course, you they should definitely reach out to you if there are more stations? Because I think this is such a difficult topic, that it's not something that you really want to do alone?

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 23:25

Absolutely not. Yeah, I think so. I'll reiterate that. I think it's really important readings that we do this too, is make sure you're talking to the person you need to talk to. So it could be that you need to interrupt someone's behavior, it could be that you want to see a broader shift in your department could be you notice some things in your managerial or reporting relationships, whatever the reason that's motivating you to have this conversation, make sure the person you're talking to is the best person to have this conversation with the person most likely to impact and change the thing that you want to see change. And the person that you want to build a relationship with. We do this a lot already set figuring out who do we need to talk to first? And how do we think about sequencing our conversations? So I will say that first. I already gave a few tips. But something else that we do already set that I do personally in my work is I really try to take a growth mindset with these conversations. I talk a lot about calling people and before calling people out if you are talking to someone you want to build relationship with you want to be in partnership with shame is not the best place to start in the calling people out is in large part driven by shame and public accountability. And I think there's such a place for that particularly where other accountability mechanisms are have failed, and people aren't incentivized to be accountable. Okay. And where there's like power differentials and where like the relationship is actually less important. But here I think it's really important to think about calling in versus calling out. I think it's important to, like I said, use that growth mindset. I often tell stories of my own personal growth, things that I've gotten wrong. I try to be vulnerable and say, nobody has gotten this right. I haven't gotten this right. Here's where I have struggled, here's where I have had to invest in my own growth. Here's what I have internalized, and had to undo, to open the door for people to talk about their struggles as well. I don't think we do these conversations. Well, when we try to come in as experts in the room, I think that can be really alienating and oftentimes disingenuous, this conversation moves so fast, even if we're on the cutting edge of it one day, we probably won't be the next. And we've all been raised and brought up in this white supremacist society. And we're lying to ourselves if we don't think that we've struggled with that, how to push past some of that, and how to do our own personal work. So I think it's so important to model that in the conversation, to model humility, to model growth, to offer partnership. And I also say, give people things to do easy, actionable things that can make them feel like they're successful. I use the example of the Civil Rights Movement letter writing campaigns, to show like how you can bring in allies, but also how you can give people something to do that will make them feel like they're part of your effort. And I know that there's a push against giving people ally cookies, or we're awarding people for doing the bare minimum. But at the same time, you got to set people up for success. So like, really think about what is that tangible? Ask that tangible, realistic ask you have of your boss, or the person conversation with? What can you give them that low hanging fruit? And we do the Set Ready, set? What can you give them to do tomorrow, that can help make things better? And then I talked about moving beyond that conversation to like, your own personal actions and what you know, what are some of the low hanging things that you can do. So that's often like, also how we do it at race. I know I started to go on to the book, but really kind of giving those people those things showing that growth mindset, giving people tangible things to do, where they're going to be successful. Balancing the systemic with the individual. And like checking back in and knowing this is a process doesn't just happen with one conversation.

Yulia Laricheva 27:23

I'm just wondering if you can actually share the letter writing story, because I know it's in your book. Because I think when you see books about race, you're gonna be like, Oh, this is going to be so heavy. And this is going to be not personal. And this is just going to be like, over my head. This is going to be complicated. This book. Yeah, it's such a lovely mix of like personal stories, case stories, and your law background that like, it's a really quick read. It's very enjoyable. Can Can, I'm like, I was like, Okay, this is going to be a really difficult book to read. I'm putting time towards this, because it's going to be really heavy. It wasn't heavy, it was just full of knowledge. And it was it was a delight to read.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 28:03

Thank you. Yeah, I tried not to make it too heavy, in part, because I think you're sitting with a lot of pain and trauma right now. This is part of it. And I try to hold space for them in the book and see that throughout, particularly at the end. But at the same time, I think sitting in trauma and pain doesn't serve us we have to process it, we and then we have to figure out how to move through it. We don't deny it. But we have to create space for joy, as well to do this work in a sustainable way. It's so easy for us to burn out that we have to do it in a sustainable way.

Yulia Laricheva 28:38

I think you're so right. It just in the joy of it because there's been so much yeah, dress with a pandemic. Yeah, with a race climate in the last two years. And who knows what future is going to be like? I don't know, I don't know which way anything is going, which is another discussion, which is what the hell is happening in the world. And creating joy. It's just like, it's like, oh, I'm, I have joy for a second. And I'm forgetting about like the hellscape that we are going through now that we're in.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 29:08

Yeah, we can talk about that in a second. Because I think it's so important. But to answer the first question about the story, the Civil Rights Movement story that I use in the book, the story serves to illustrate two points. The first is what I kind of mentioned how you can do something tangible and practical to move the needle. But the second is how we think about engaging our allies. That's a big part of the book is like find your friends. Don't do this work alone, find your friends, and part of it may be converting friends over to your cause. So making new friends making a friend as somebody who might not have been a friend before. And in the book I talked about quite often when we're engaged with a particular cause. We think of the people around us as being for that cause or against that cause and we think of our mission as having to try to convert somebody from being against our costs to totally being for our cause, and then keep the people who are totally for causing gation or cause when reality is as quite as a lot more nuanced. And so I refer to this tool in my book called The spectrum of allies. And the tool basically says, when it comes to people who are potential allies, you have people who are strongly opposed to your cause people who are strongly supportive, and folks in the middle of the half moon, and they that divide up the that that piece into like little pie wedges. And it's like, strongly opposed, mildly oppose neutral, mildly supportive, strongly supportive. And they say your mission and doing this work actually isn't it gets me from strongly opposed to strongly supporting is to get someone one degree over. So always think of how you move that person, one degree or so say all that to say, the Civil Rights story background I talked about is the the voter registration drive in the south during the Civil Rights Movement, and essentially, what the SMCC did, and that was like the civil rights movement, civil rights organization at the time, as I said, Okay, we've got some like white allies. And we've got, we want to register people to vote, and we need to get more people in the middle, particularly more people with power in the middle. How are we going to engage white moderate, so what they did is they had people on campus, white students on campus who are kind of passionate about issues of civil rights, go down and register people to vote. And this summer, I think it was like, I think it may be the summer. I don't remember the time actually to see, I want to say, but I think it was actually earlier this 1965 that had these people go down. But the violence that these kids saw, some of them didn't survive, some of them were killed. They saw the lynching, they saw the police crackdowns, and they saw the fire hoses. They saw justice oppression, and they were also targeted, right. This is the thing that we often forget is that white people who ally themselves with the civil rights movement, or civil rights causes can themselves be harmed, too. So they say it's all the stuff, the ones who were lucky enough to go back to school the next year who survived, went back to their college campuses. And they wrote their parents, and they told them what they saw. They also organize their campuses. So they went from being kind of supportive or like work down with this thing to be really passionate and converting other white people, these parents saw their children being targeted. And they were like, Whoa, these parents in the north, they're like, wait a second, this is affecting my children, I had no idea how bad it was, they start telling their friends. So like, their number one converted, they're putting political pressure on their representatives, they're talking to their congressman, and then they're talking to their friends who may be mildly opposed, or strongly opposed. They're not just neutral, they're on the other side of slack, when they're saying, Do you know what's happening? Do you know what my kid experience, you're telling me that what my kid experiences, okay. And then they're converting those people. And what we saw in that example, is free weekly, you get civil rights legislation pushed through and signed by Lyndon B. Johnson, because you've now got this pressure from these white moderates. And people who were even opposed to civil rights legislation who have now been converted, saying, We've got to do something, all because you engaged a smaller group of people who had more leverage, and were able to bring other people. And so that's the Civil Rights example. And I love that example, because it just illustrates so much.

Yulia Laricheva 33:38

I love that example. And I was gonna say that I've been listening to a lot of audiobooks every time I have a guest, because you know, I have a kid now. So I don't have time to read, like reading is really hard, as you know, like doing anything is really hard with a toddler. So I've been doing audiobooks. And since your book is not available on audio yet, I had to read it. No, it is, is it? I tried to find on Audible couldn't find it.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 34:01

Oh, yeah, it's totally on Audible. So yeah, books. It's available. It's available

Yulia Laricheva 34:05

on Audible, but I was gonna say I was really looking forward to sitting down and reading every night, I was like, Oh my gosh, I haven't done it. But I really enjoyed reading your book. You're both sitting down and like turning off the TV. And like really being in the story again. And I was like write books instead of multitasking when you're listening to something, just taking the time to really absorb something.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 34:26

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I think I love the audio book, but I also think having the print version of your hand then you can like see the diagrams, the maps the tools and encourage people to write in the book and stuff because it's meant to be a handbook.

Yulia Laricheva 34:43

Interesting. Okay. So you're available on Audible, okay, just want to plug that in, because I want to make sure that people download the book. It's available on Audible, so please get it and also get the book too because you know what, it's really good to have both and it's nice. It's a lovely, love the size. I'm going to show it right here. Hear? Yeah. And you know what, as you were speaking, it also reminded me of like, how the organizing right now, for people who are in the middle is being limited on social media. So in a weird way, like I was like, before I started talking about race and politics on my podcast, because before I was like, Hey, let me start out early on, feel it out and see how it is like my hashtags. Were going off the wall. Yeah, like I would post something would get a lot of hits, the more race and social economic stuff and woman empowerment stuff. I was like, Instagram just. And I was like, I know, I'm not doing the same engagement stuff that like normally people do on Instagram, because I don't want to be an influencer. I just want to share ideas. I want to share, amplify voices, I don't care to be like a tick tock star. But it's interesting, because it's like who gets to say on social media now, like, when there was a campaign for missing and murdered indigenous women, Instagram canceled that hashtag for quite a while. So it's like, how do we organize in this day and age? What tools do we use? Is it going back to newsletters? Is it going back to a world where we can organize in? You know, the metaverse? How do we do that? While we're being canceled?

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 36:15

It's so tough to because the platforms that we're using, the platforms that are big enough to reach all of us, engage all of us and get us all to act quickly, are themselves pretty problematic, and are built by teams that aren't necessarily diverse, who don't have interests, everybody's interests in mind. There's a lot of work that's been done on some of the biases inherent in Facebook. And I think Twitter's the case to all these platforms have also been weaponized to harass activists, not just to activists, anyone who is like different, who is trying to do some of the social work, it's just super difficult, the tools we use are flawed, we have to know that we have to work around this faucet don't mean don't think it means they're not useful. But I think it just means we have to be intentional how we use them. And we have to be mindful of when the interests of the platform diverge from our personal interests, we can't just assume, like you said, with your engagement platforms always going to amplify our voices and what we do, because a lot of times platforms have an interest in trying to silence this conversation. I also think it's hard because of COVID. And being in person is so hard. But I think you know, I talk a lot about building communities within work, because I think, like people are looking for that interpersonal, those interpersonal relationships. So I think thinking about your personal relationships, and how you can leverage those are important, I think, finding groups outside of the workplace. And I think sometimes like the group, it's not just about a hashtag or a post, it could be about finding a group on these social media platforms, and really thinking about who's got the Facebook group, or who's got, who's in this meetup, who's where I can find a community. And we can start in this space and then go to a different space. And I'll also just say, organizing, moving people, culture change isn't just about going viral. A lot of times you have these community organizations, the social organizations that are doing deep political work, that often don't get that public traction, that are just as important. And I will say to that end as well, starting local, you know, I think one of the things that conservatives have done really well is yes, there's this misinformation engine that is happening on YouTube, Facebook, all of these on all these platforms. But there's also quite a bit of local action happening. If you look at what's happening to our local offices, our school boards, the local conversations are moving to the right, in part because people are being more active there. And I think we can do that, too. We can think locally as well as thinking globally, too. So I would say those are those are some of the suggestions that I would make.

Yulia Laricheva 39:24

This is such a nice segue, because you mentioned globally because my next question was going to be how can one champion anti racism when working abroad, you're a global citizen, I'm just gonna say that and I think you really get to see racism. When you travel, the more you travel the world, the more you understand people and the more you understand how people perceive you, yeah, you just understand the world better. And maybe people don't travel and maybe due to COVID I think that's getting a lot harder to and that's, that's what's sad that people don't get to see the world and they don't get to experience To think it only to see like this myopic view of it. Yeah,

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 40:03

I say in my book, I spend a little bit of time here because of my own history, that racism is a global problem. But I've lived in countries around the world, I've lived in Nicaragua, I lived in Thailand, on the border with Burma, I lived in Afghanistan, I lived in your, I've just lived White, a few places. And in almost every place, I've had to deal with racism. And sometimes a racism comes from different parts of society. Sometimes I'm in a society that's inherently racist. I, you know, talk a little bit about my experience in Brussels, not all Belgian people are racist. But Belgians have a really tragic history with the Congo of violent history. And so walking around as a unambiguously black person in Brussels and Belgium, you know, I felt that and until I opened my mouth, and people realized I was African American and not African, I was treated differently. And even when I did, I was, you know, still not treated well treated very closely. But sometimes it also comes from white communities, that are expat communities, within places, there are countries I would go to, and I would have no problem with a local sewer there. But white people from Europe and America would bring their racism to another country's context. And I would have difficulty there. I say all this to say, it's not just a US issue, and leaving the US will not absolve you of it. And I'll add one, before I answer your question about how do we think about it when we're working abroad, one layer of complexity. While I am a member of an oppressed minority group in the US, I'm an African American woman sent descendant of slaves in the US, I still have a lot of privilege associated with my identity. When I go abroad, and have very real impact. I think there's a lot we can say about imperialism, and what it looks like when people from rich countries go to other countries, and either impose their beliefs and worldview or try to extract resources from those countries, or do both. And I've really had to critically think about my ways, globally, politically, socially, when I go to countries and I see these extractive systems built in these beautiful places where people don't have a lot, right, like, I've been a tourist in Bali, and seeing how the tourists live versus how the locals live. I've seen it in Central America, you know, and, yes, living in Nicaragua, but also vacationing in Costa Rica, and all these other beautiful places I saw in Thailand. And so my identity doesn't absolve me of my privilege, as well. And so I have struggled with that have wrestled with that, too. I think that's important to lay out. Now, to answer your question, how do we deal with it? When we're there, I think we try to, first of all, make sure that our work isn't part of this extractive paradigm. When I was working as an international human rights lawyer, I think there was some of that embedded in it, right? was like, Okay, I'm, as an American, I'm gonna come in and tell you how to do your human rights. And I'm gonna make a huge salary, sometimes, not all the time. Also, people work. Sometimes I wasn't paid that much, while locals who are know the context live there, doing all the hard work, makes substantially less, and you have to listen to me why? Because I'm American with a Harvard law degree, what is that I was never the type of person to engage in like, problematic behavior abroad, like, I'm not gonna, like, go to like, the strip club, or like, whatever. But we also know that humanitarian aid organizations, international NGOs, are guilty of some of the very things that they purport to help solve. So it's like, what am I endorsing what I'm contributing by my presence? I think we have to critically interrogate the actual work that we're doing, and the relationships of the organizations that we're a part of, to the countries that they're in and how they treat people local to those countries. And then we really have to think about, are we part of something that seeks only to sustain itself? You know, I saw this quite a bit in Afghanistan, this whole aid government ecosystem where everybody was making money, and then nothing was happening for the Afghan people, or are we really thinking about how do we empower people locally to take over those jobs? I absolutely think there's a place where humanitarian aid, support international involvement, we have a responsibility to like go into the countries that we've exploited for so long or who suffer because of, but also, we need to empower those people and not dictate what needs to happen and then we need to be able to step away and have empower people decide their own On Face, right, give the resources or whatever, but like have those people at the center and not us. And I also think finally, we need to more so than any one interrupt where we see racism happening, whether that's between people who are we're working with, or when we're out in the street. And we see like an expat treating somebody like garbage, because they do that all the time. People go to these countries to be kings and queens and be treated with a level of deference, which is disgusting in my mind, by other human beings. And so I think we also have a responsibility when we see expats behaving that way to check them right away, because the person who's on the receiving end of that doesn't have the privilege is quite often economically dependent on tourism. Can't always say no. So like, if we see that happening, we have responsibility, say no as well. So those are some of the things that I think that we can do to leverage our global privilege to interrupt the exploitation and the violence that we quite often see in these countries that we go to.

Yulia Laricheva 46:05

Yeah, and I like to add that they're usually women, children, or LGBTQ people as well. And especially in Thailand, I spent some time in Thailand, and it's some places are horrific.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 46:16

No, I hate to single out one country because because I've seen it everywhere. What's happening in the US is happening. It happens in the US, it happens in Latin America, it happens. And I think there's just a sort of Neo imperialistic idea that we can just go into a place, take everything that's beautiful about it, give nothing back and treat the people who live there, like they're disposable, or like they were meant to serve us in their own homelands. There's a great conversation happening about the term immigrant versus expat. When you look at the way that we, with Western privilege, go into countries and say, Oh, we're not immigrants. We're expats. We're here to benefit your economy, etc. And then the way we treat people who come into our own country, the way we treat immigrants, the way we treat these people, it's so hypocritical it like it actually really, you can tell it really touches a nerve with me, because I think we try to think that we're above this stuff. And we literally have places even in the US, you have places like Hawaii saying like, we don't want tourism like this, but we're not your playcraft. And you have places like Puerto Rico being like, we need to be empowered. It's not happening that far away from home. And I think we really have to be introspective about how we show up these places, whether it's within our own borders in our country or not.

Yulia Laricheva 47:43

It's so beautifully put, because you don't think it's happening in the US. And it is I think the more you travel, and yeah, US is such a complicated space to because it's so it's so diverse. Yeah. And it's so interesting.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 47:57

I didn't want to pick up on one thing you said, which is like this happening in the US. And I think in part is because the US is so diverse. I think it's also like inequality is embedded into the foundation of our country. And the foundation of these global relationships that I'm talking about, we think about three fifths compromise, which is like more constitution, or we think about how people work. Not everybody was afforded the same rights, the beginning with the US, right? You had white landowners who were protecting everybody else that was like, you know, you don't get the right to vote. And it's kind of been undoing a lot of this has been a process of undoing what's embedded to our very fabric. And we think globally, if you look at the history of colonialism, imperialism, trade, self determination, all these things, a lot of these things influence our geopolitical dynamics today and these relationships today. So just wanted to touch that. Like, this is like, you know what, I mean, doesn't happen. We have a lot of times we're trying to undo the damage that's been done historically.

Yulia Laricheva 49:02

Right. I was gonna chime in on the difference between expats and immigrants. I think immigrants are forced to leave their country where expats have a choice and they usually have money and they choose to leave the country sometimes. Sometimes, sometimes sometimes. So I think that's like a whole entire podcast in itself. But I was gonna ask you, you know, what is your dream as an adult to wrap up the podcast?

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 49:25

As adults? I have a couple of dreams. I was telling my husband part of me honestly, and this is like really personal, but I feel like we're in a time of such instability, politically, globally. With climate change my husband, I've been talking about kids and you know, I was kind of like, I just want to be huge and pregnant, have a bunch of kids and limit a big house and like, not have to worry about these existential threats. Like I love my career. I love the opportunities I've been afforded. I love My work. But I think in so many ways we're in such a chaotic environment right now. I don't think there was ever a time as a black woman, where that was an option that was really afforded to us. I will say that, honestly, I think we've always been expected to work, we've always been expected to work in service of other people's comfort. And one thing that like really resonated with me was hearing Michelle Obama talk about staying at home as a mom. And that being a revolutionary act. One thing I share with people is that, you know, when I started my career, I would be on these panels. And they one of the questions they will always ask is like, how did you deal with conversations about work life balance, and my response to I never got to have that conversation. So I was assumed, like a woman like me would work. I always want to work. But, you know, I was just loved to just have some kids and feel safe and rooted and stable, and know that life, the future is secured. And I think right now, we're in a position where we have to secure it. And in some ways, it sucks. It's a privilege to be in the fight, but it sucks. The future I want is a future where it's secure. And I know that I'm gonna be bringing up my children, and having a family and it's super safe, beautiful place. Speaking.

Yulia Laricheva 51:24

Background, she's like, she's like, to me, for me. It really touches me when you're speaking as a mom who just want to be safe, and enjoying the motherhood and enjoying the family. Because, yeah, like people talk about achieving their career. But it's an achievement, to find a mate that loves you back and supports you. And it's an achievement to create a lovely home to raise a child that is loving and safe and all that. And when you create that, you want to be in it. It's like a beautiful little dream.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 51:58

We're in the process right now. We're not children anymore. Like we're in the process of building our legacy. You know, I don't know how old you are. But like, for me, it's like, yeah, I'm 14. And some ways that feels like very young. But in some ways, it's like, no, but like, you're fully a grown ass woman. Right? You are now responsible for another human being, you're responsible for what you leave behind. Part of that is our work. But part of that is also thinking thinking about, more broadly, what are we leaving, whether it's for our children, our biological family, or our chosen family? What legacies do we do we leave behind?

Yulia Laricheva 52:39

And also what money right, which is part of the legacy conversation, right? What are the opportunities that we get to have access to? And what are the opportunities that our children get to have access to? Yeah, and I love that you brought that into this conversation. Because it's such a, it's a nice, it's a nice point to end on, because it gives people a lot of things to think about, I think, yeah. Because that's what we're doing this for, like, We're doing this for kids, because because they have to deal with it. Because we, our parents had to deal with it. And now it just doesn't stop.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 53:12

Even for people who don't necessarily have kids of their own. We're all in some ways responsible for the next generation. Not just like my baby, your your baby, but like what we leave behind. We're responsible for that. And I think it's so easy to move away from that community mindedness. That we as a generation, we as a collective of adults, we as people in the world who have power, are responsible, and it's not just, I am responsible for my baby, you're responsible for your baby, I know all of us are responsible for that next generation coming up.

Yulia Laricheva 53:50

That's so beautiful. And thank you so much for being on the show. And thank you for making the time. I'm excited to share your book out in my newsletter as well and people can sign up on the newsletter to get a few copies of how to talk about race. So just go to dream nation the aisle and find the newsletter sign up and you can win a few copies.

Y-Vonne Hutchinson 54:09

All right, thank you so much for the conversation. You.

Yulia Laricheva 54:13

Pleasure. Thanks for tuning into the show. I hope you enjoyed it. Please share on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and dream nation love. It's not dream nation podcast. It's dream nation love because I think my single mission in life is to teach. People have to love a little bit more. And together we can save the world. So it's dream nation love, share it with your friends, have a great day and go out and make the world a better place.