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Gospel Reverb | Grace Communion International Resources

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Gospel Reverb is crafted for preachers, teachers and pastors. This monthly podcast gives insightful commentary on Bible texts from the Revised Common Lectionary. Host, Anthony Mullins, interviews outstanding preachers, theologians and church practitioners from around the globe who provide Christ-centered observations on the lectionary texts.

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Gospel Reverb | Grace Communion International Resources

updated 15 days ago

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Gospel Reverb | Grace Communion International Resources

1
Andrew Torrance—Year C Proper 9-12 50:47

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50:47

Andrew Torrance—Year C Proper 9-12 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode . Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb . Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary , and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Andrew Torrance. Andrew is a professor of theology at the University of St. Andrew’s School of Divinity. He’s also the co-director of the Logos Institute of Analytical and Exegetical Theology, along with Oliver Crisp. Dr. Torrance is a member of a group of scholars organized by BioLogos, exploring the nature of human identity and personhood. Recently he finished co-writing with Alan Torrance, the book Beyond Eminence, the Theological Vision of Kierkegaard and Barth . Andrew, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on the pod, we’d like to know a little bit about you, your story, and how you are participating with Jesus these days. Andrew: Okay. Thank you, Anthony. It’s really great to be here. And it’s always hard to know where to start, when I say something about who I am. But as you mentioned, I teach theology at the University of St. Andrews. I see that as my primary calling. And serving the church in this world through working with students and helping them to really know and understand who the triune God of love is, and how we in creation relate to that God. And so that’s my primary calling in this world. But I’m also actively involved in the church very well in the Church of Scotland as an elder. And actually, recently though, I’ve been more involved in a denomination called United Free Church, where I’ve been attending a slightly different congregation for a while. I was very involved with in a fresh expression of ministry in St. Andrews, where we ran a breakfast church in St. Andrews. But for a variety of reasons, COVID wasn’t great for a breakfast church, and so we ended up having a hiatus, which sort of ended up finishing that ministry. Since then, I’ve been taking a bit of a season of time out from being more actively involved in church ministry. But I’m going to be starting doing a bit more preaching things again and being involved in different ways as well. Yeah, that’s me. [00:03:03] Anthony: I mentioned in the introduction Andrew, that you wrote a book called Beyond Eminence , and I’m just curious. I haven’t had a chance to read it, but I plan to. So, what insights are you hoping somebody like me will take away from the reading experience? [00:03:18] Andrew: Great. So, there’s a variety of different topics that we’re covering in that book. It’s primarily a book thinking about the relationship between Kierkegaard and Karl Barth. But I think what makes them so interesting as thinkers is that there are two thinkers that really center their theology and their Christian vision on the reality of Jesus Christ, what it means to participate in that reality and to follow Jesus Christ in a world that is always resisting that reality. And particularly it’s interesting to think about them in the respective context as they sought to understand the gospel in ways that were resistant to forms of Christian nationalism, a Christendom context that’s kind of enculturated Christianity in ways that merged it with a lot of what was going on in society to the detriment of the gospel. And so, what they tried to present was something that was entirely new and fresh, to really speak God’s words in a new way to their context, in ways that was both challenging, but also affirming people, and encouraging them with a hope for there being so much more to the nature of this world as a world that’s created by God, and while that’s created by God to find its fulfillment in Jesus Christ. [00:04:33] Anthony: And it sounds timely. And I’m just curious, you co-wrote it with Alan Torrance. Did your dad try to boss you around with the text, tell you what to write? [00:04:44] Andrew: It was definitely an ongoing conversation. So, I actually did my PhD on Karl Barth, and so I actually wrote my half before he really started working on his half. But then, yes, I wrote my part here at his house. And then I made a lot of changes based on what he wrote, and then there was a bit of, quite a bit of a back and forth over a few years. And yeah, yeah, there was no bossing around, but it was, yeah, there was definitely a constructive conversation going on. [00:05:16] Anthony: Sure. Sure. I look forward to getting the book and let’s do this, let’s dive into the lectionary text that we have this month. That’s why we’re here. Our first pericope of the month is Galatians 6:7–16. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 9 in Ordinary Time, July 6. Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow. 8 If you sow to your own flesh, you will reap corruption from the flesh, but if you sow to the Spirit, you will reap eternal life from the Spirit. 9 So let us not grow weary in doing what is right, for we will reap at harvest time, if we do not give up. 10 So then, whenever we have an opportunity, let us work for the good of all and especially for those of the family of faith. 11 See what large letters I make when I am writing in my own hand! 12 It is those who want to make a good showing in the flesh who try to compel you to be circumcised—only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. 13 Even the circumcised do not themselves obey the law, but they want you to be circumcised so that they may boast about your flesh. 14 May I never boast of anything except the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me and I to the world. 15 For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation is everything! 16 As for those who will follow this rule—peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Andrew, how would you explain sowing to the flesh versus sowing to the Spirit, which we find in verse 8. And how can this text be read without being overly prescriptive or sounding like karma dressed up in Christianity? [00:07:16] Andrew: Great, thank you, Anthony. So, the sow to the Spirit is to recognize first that the reality of something going on in this world that is so much greater than the ways in which we define the world for ourselves. And that’s something theological. It’s witnessing to the triune God and the particular ways in which God is working in the world. And following Pentecost, God works in the world through the Spirit, who is at work in the church animating and empowering our lives to express something that goes beyond what is on the kind of the surface of this world. Those things that appear to us immediately. And so often, the habits of the way we interpret the world, is to reduce the reality to what is immediately in front of us, to allow our basic instincts to determine the direction of our lives, to let this world as it’s kind of closed in its own kind of bubble to be what defines all that there is in this world. And what it means to sow to the Spirit is to seek the more to reality, and that more to reality is the way in which God is defining it from beyond the ways in which the world might try to define itself. Okay? And so that means that we are called to participate in something that is beyond our every expectation. Okay? So, this kind of way we might think about balance and forms of karma, is to operate in very human categories. Where there it’s dealing with the work of the Spirit, there’s something incredibly inspiring and just very new, which means that we’re constantly required to seek God in ways that allow him to speak to us in new ways, to guide our lives in new directions. And that means transformation — to receive and to sow our life to the Spirit is to be people that are transformed in ways that align us with God’s kingdom coming on earth as it is in heaven. [00:09:22] Anthony: I didn’t plan to ask you this question, so I hope you don’t mind, but as I’m looking at verse 9, it talks about not growing weary and doing good. And there’s that preposition “if”, and it can sound very conditional: “if you don’t give up.” Is there a word of good news for somebody who maybe in their walk with Christ right now who is just feeling like they want to give up? Is there something we can take away from that as good news? [00:09:51] Andrew: What this verse is doing with its “if” isn’t simply prescriptive, it’s descriptive. And what this verse is doing is telling you about the reality of things that gives people a sense of security and a groundedness that is beyond what they’re able to achieve for themselves. And it encourages people to rest, to embrace that kind of Sabbath reality. And when they’re weary, to take time out to seek God and to seek a form of empowerment and inspiration and energy that they just don’t have the capacity to achieve. I think when some things are taken out of our hands, when we recognize that there’s something beyond us that is securing our lives in this world, that can give people a sense of peace and rest. But with any answer like this, we’ve got to know the specifics of the situations and the struggles that people are facing, I think, in order to address them better. But I think simply being, simply recognizing that the gospel calls people to a sense of peace and rest in order for them to be empowered to be witnesses to the reality of the gospel, I think that’s something that should ease the minds of people that are experiencing stress and anxiety in their lives. [00:11:09] Anthony: Yeah, that’s a good word, Andrew. You talked about just resting and I have found, just my own personal experience and you mentioned this as well, discerning the particularity of the situation. But when I grow weary, I’m trying to do too much on my own like by my own strength and my own might, which is fragile, anemic at best. And so, leaning on Christ, as you said. And we read here, Paul writes in verse 15, that new creation is everything. Okay, everything. So, what’s he getting at? [00:11:46] Andrew: There’s so many things that can be got at with these words. How I take them is that Paul is challenging the ways in which we are living in the old creation. In some ways, as I said already, we settle into the patterns of this world and make that world everything. We settle into the patterns of the flesh, we make these patterns, everything. And when we recognize the reality of who God is for us in Jesus Christ, and we recognize the ways in which we’re embraced constantly by the power of the Holy Spirit, that requires us to recognize that this newness is everything. It is everywhere. It surrounds us. It’s elevating us into experiencing reality in a way that is transformative. And to say that this newness is everywhere and that it is, everything, resists our desire to guess It. I think when we, it’s so easy for us to compartmentalize in ways that puts our Christian faith into a small quarter in the room, into a small box, maybe a box we open on a Sunday morning, or maybe when we open a few times a day when we pray. And we compartmentalize our lives in ways that means that we’re not always living into that reality. And what this verse tells us is to say, no, you shouldn’t be doing that. This is fundamental to every aspect of your lives, and unless you learn to interpret your bias, you’re calling in this world more than that, you’re going to be deluded. You’re going to be living into the old passions of this world, so into the flesh in ways that means that you’re missing out on what is actually going on. You’re asleep, you’re not awakened to the reality of the worth of the Spirit. [00:13:33] Anthony: Wake up, O sleeper. Let’s go. Alright, let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It is Colossians 1:1–14. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 10 in Ordinary Time on July 13. Andrew, would you read it for us, please? [00:13:54] Andrew: Yes, of course. Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ in Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father. 3 In our prayers for you we always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 for we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints, 5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. You have heard of this hope before in the word of the truth, the gospel 6 that has come to you. Just as it is bearing fruit and growing in the whole world, so it has been bearing fruit among yourselves from the day you heard it and truly comprehended the grace of God. 7 This you learned from Epaphras, our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on our behalf, 8 and he has made known to us your love in the Spirit. 9 For this reason, since the day we heard it, we have not ceased praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of God’s will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, as you bear fruit in every good work and as you grow in the knowledge of God. 11 May you be made strong with all the strength that comes from his glorious power, so that you may have all endurance and patience, joyfully 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has enabled you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has rescued us from the power of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of his beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. [00:15:43] Anthony: Whew. That’s a mouthful. There’s a lot going on here. And I’m curious. Before I get into the questions, I wanted to ask you when we come to scripture, the first question of theology is, who is God being revealed in Jesus Christ? So, what would you want to say to a congregation, your congregation, about God as revealed in this text? [00:16:04] Andrew: Very simply, it’s easy to think about God as this kind of transcendent reality that doesn’t really engage with us in this world in a way that we can really see and be receptive to, that is tangible. So often, when we talk about God, we think about spirituality in ways that are very removed from the world in which we find ourselves. Anthony: Yeah. Andrew: And that’s just not the case. The heart of the Christian message is the fact that God becomes one amongst us in and through the eternal Son, assuming human flesh in the person of Jesus Christ, such that we are given a clarity into who he understands humanity to be, and communicates to us with a much, much greater clarity than anywhere else about who God is for us in this person. So, we can, we should, of course, take seriously the whole of scripture. But I think at the heart, the core of scripture is this revelation of God’s very self in this person of Jesus Christ that kind of gives us a center, a clarity as to who God really is. There is no God behind Jesus Christ. God is with us in and through the very person, Jesus Christ. And so, if we really want to know God, we look to this person. And if we come … we often hear things that might make us nervous about who Jesus Christ is. And in those times, we can set our eyes upon Jesus and get a clarity. Just, I often find myself asking myself, “Can I imagine these words being in the mouth of Jesus Christ.” And if I can’t, I think that should really give me pause, in questioning, in asking whether it really is telling us something about who God is and the way that God relates to the world. [00:18:02] Anthony: I’m really grateful for that, because as we come to my next question about walking worthy of the Lord, it’s a phrase that we see often in Pauline epistles. And if we’re not looking to Jesus Christ, we can be thrown back on ourselves, that, “Oh man, I’ve got to buckle up here and walk worthy.” And there’s a both/and, right? There’s the fact that Jesus walked worthy of the Lord and thanks be to God. So, I wanted to know what does this phrase mean to the original hearers? And how should we interpret this imperative and live accordingly? [00:18:42] Andrew: So, it’s always hard to work out exactly, but it means the original hearers. But I suspect it probably means something similar to how we would hear it today, insofar as I understand it this far. And that’s saying that we need to live in a way that is true to the person Jesus Christ, and also to his ministry, to the ministry to which he calls us — is to recognize the importance of embracing his call on our lives, to seeing his call as a story, descriptive of the ways in which we live our lives in this world. Okay? So very simply, I think it means that we need to live our lives in a way that takes Jesus seriously. And it’s by doing that, that we come to reflect the reality of who he is into this world, that we live our lives in a way that bears witness to this reality of the gospel. And now, I think in some ways this is a … we have quite simple methods. We just need to follow Jesus Christ in ways that really take seriously who he is and what he is calling us to. But this is something that all the time, I think the church is failing to do in this world. So many of the ways in which Christians are represented in the world, I just do not think reflect the reality of who Jesus Christ is. And I often find myself just thinking, when I hear Christians say things that I think are a bit dashed, I just wish they would really take a bit more time to reflect on the ministry of Jesus Christ and ask themselves whether the kinds of things they’re saying about what the church should be in this world is really reflecting on the ministry of Jesus. [00:20:18] Anthony: And what you just said strikes me as thinking about Karl Barth. I think it was Barth that talked about how all of us need to be theologians, ultimately, which is our understanding of God, our God talk, our God speech, that we really do need to think, and God has given us his highest resolution of himself in the person of Jesus, right? So, it goes to what you said — taking Jesus seriously. And so, with that in mind, I ask a question that we find parked in verses 12 and 14. It seems to me as we exegete those verses, God is making all the salvific moves, not us. So, what is your theological take for preachers and teachers who will be proclaiming this text to their congregations? [00:21:05] Andrew: Yeah, I think it was just absolutely right. This verse says that our salvation, our redemption, is fundamentally grounded in what God is doing for us in and through the person of Jesus Christ. It’s not something that God is starting to do and then putting things in our hands to finish a job. Everything about redemption is accomplished in and through the person of Jesus Christ. Okay, so redemption has been established as a reality for this world. It’s a reality for creation. This world has been made new in and through the person of Jesus Christ. But, of course, when you look around in this world, we see so many ways in which this world continues to be broken, to be confused, to be sinful. And that’s because we’re sleeping. We’re sleeping to the reality of redemption, and we are needing to be woken up from our slumber. We need to allow the Spirit to empower our lives so that we can reflect the reality of redemption, the reality of this good news, of the fact that all things have been made new in and through Jesus Christ. And by waking up we become people that are living into God’s kingdom, that are participating in God’s kingdom of redemption, and that enables us to become empowered as witnesses to that reality, to become people who are showing the inauguration of God’s kingdom in this world. And when we do that, when we participate in God’s kingdom, one thing that I think that we need to become clear as we grow into this redeemed reality is that we need to stop pretending to be the kings and queens over our own kingdoms, to recognize that we’re participating in something that is far greater. And again, this is in some ways, it’s an obvious theological point to make. But there’s ways in which we, it’s almost a default for us, to keep returning to seeing ourselves as the center of this world, the kind primary or authority over our lives. There are so many ways in which I think autonomy can be understood to be a good thing and a proper thing, but there’s ways in which you can often overemphasize it in ways that allows us to view ourselves as the primary meaning makers of what this world is all about. And that’s just not the case. And so far as we are redeemed, we’re called to discover who we are as new persons, and through Jesus Christ we’re called to see this is what redemption means — that all things have been made new. And this is something that we need to see. We need to open our eyes and our ears. We need to wake up and smell a coffee. And that’s not something that we can do again by ourselves, but something we depend upon the Spirit to do in our lives. We need to know. And we need to go to places to participate in life, in church, to go to practices, to pray, to read our scripture, because it’s through these things that the Spirit is working the world again, encouraging us to wake up and smell the coffee. [00:24:08] Anthony: Yeah, that’s interesting, it’s been years since I’ve studied it, but if I remember correctly, the word redemption there in the Greek is apolytr ō sis . Which means to be set free just for freedom’s sake, not to be used by the master in abusive ways, but to be set free. And once you’ve been set free, you want to go with the one that set you free, who has made that salvific move. And to participate in his reality — like you said, to wake up. And this is something, I don’t know if you face it in the UK, but here in the United States, man, everybody wants agency and they’re just demanding agency. But agency has to be understood in the light of Jesus Christ, right? That, yes, I get to participate, but I’m not the master of my own domain. I’m not the king or queen, as you said. That is such an important word, don’t you think for today’s scenario? [00:25:10] Andrew: Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing that we forget, in some of the ways in which we think about what freedom is, that we often think that freedom is the freedom to do whatever. But when we’re thinking about what the freedom is as it’s defined by the gospel, freedom involves us being awakened to see the prisons in which we are enslaving ourselves by sin, that it’s to open our eyes to the problem of sin, to make ourselves conscious of sin as something that is not freeing us, but constraining us in a state of bondage, and that we are tying ourselves down from embracing the reality of who we truly are as we are known by God. And when we do that, we don’t flourish in the way that we are truly called to flourish in this world. We can’t know who we truly are unless we know the one who truly knows us. [00:26:02] Anthony: Bam. There it is. Let’s pivot to our next pericope for the month. It is Colossians 1:15–28. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 11 and Ordinary Time, July 20. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, 16 for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers—all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He himself is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 He is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might come to have first place in everything. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. 21 And you who were once estranged and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through death, so as to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, 23 provided that you continue securely established and steadfast in the faith, without shifting from the hope promised by the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven. I, Paul, became a minister of this gospel. 24 I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am completing what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church. 25 I became its minister according to God’s commission that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery that has been hidden throughout the ages and generations but has now been revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. 28 It is he whom we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone in all wisdom, so that we may present everyone mature in Christ. Glory hallelujah. This pericope is a breathtaking Christological tour-de-force. Take it away. Andrew. I just want to give you an opportunity to riff on the text. [00:28:45] Andrew: Great, thank you. I know we’re not allowed to have favorite passages and scripture. Anthony: Yes, you are. Let’s go for it. Andrew: But this is definitely up there for me, and there’s just so much going on in this passage. And I could write books, if I had the time. But I just really want to focus in on something that I think is just really central in this passage that I think is so neglected by the church today. I think so often when Christians try to understand what creation is all about, how we understand the doctrine of creation, we often just turn to the early chapters of Genesis. And that sometimes means that we end up, in fact it does mean very often, that we end up with a vision of what creation is that neglects Jesus Christ. It is … what often ends up happening is, Jesus Christ ends up becoming this person that turns up later as kind of God’s plan B to make the world become good like it was in the beginning. And what Colossians 1 tells us is that, no, from the very beginning, Jesus Christ was a part of the plan for creation. Now, God creates the world in, through, and for the person of Jesus Christ. We can’t understand what creation is apart from the conclusion for which God prepared it. The reason, the very reason that God created the world, was so that the Son could be born. And what’s significant about that is that God, or at least the scripture, is revealing the fact that creation is to be identified with the person of Jesus Christ. And through him we are drawn to participate in the triune koinonia , the triune communion that shapes the life of God. We are not just created to exist in and of ourselves. God doesn’t just create the world to live on its own terms, to leave it be, and then remove God’s self into the transcendence in which God lives. Now God is with us, not just through his presence, but in and through the very humanity of his Son, Jesus Christ. And it’s that to which God creates the world. What is fundamental to understanding what creation is, is the person of Jesus Christ. God creates the world not to find its end in itself. And we often think about creation as having value in and of itself, as being an end in itself. But theology, Christian theology resists that. We’re not called to be ends in and of ourselves, but to be a creation that finds its end in God. And the way in which we find our end in God is by God becoming one with creation, so that in him, in the very person of the Son according to his humanity, humanity would be, and not just humanity, but the whole creation would be at one with God. And so, it’s in this very person that creation finds fulfillment. And so, in order for creation to be all that it was created to be, it needs to come to know the way in which God has identified it with the person of the Son. So, it is in and through him that we come to know what creation is all about. Again, when we just think about Genesis 1, it becomes very easy for us to just try to understand creation as something that God created that has its own kind of meaning and character that God has then left to itself. But that’s just not the case. We have to always understand that the starting point for understanding creation, and the ending point, is this person of Jesus Christ. [00:32:29] Anthony: Yeah. Just thinking about the telos , the ending — we’re in the Christian calendar in the season of Eastertide and last week we were in John 20 where Mary of Magdala encounters the risen Lord. And she thought he was a gardener. And I just think there’s so much there. You don’t want to try to extrapolate too much, but this divine gardener shows up who is tending to this creation that he loves, that he’s bound to. And it gives us meaning and purpose in him, like you said. And I’m so grateful for that because we do start in Genesis, and often, we don’t even start in Genesis 1, we start in Genesis 3 with the fall, right? And then, that becomes the overall or at least the starting point for how people present the gospel, instead of original belonging and the purpose of, meaning of, creation. As we look through this text, Andrew — and there is so much here, so it’s hard to pick and choose what to talk about — but I do, I did notice we know that Paul frequently talks about being “in Christ”, but it’s rare that we find the phrasing “Christ in you”, which we see in verse 27. Can you tell us more about this hope of glory? [00:33:43] Andrew: Yeah. Anthony: Great. Andrew: So, I think to understand this verse, we need to understand it with reference to the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives. And Jesus Christ sends the Spirit into the world to be someone who represents the reality of Jesus Christ. And the Spirit dwells within us, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, Christ dwells within us. And so, yeah, when the Spirit is working our lives, there’s ways in which Christ really is within us. Christ is present in the life of believers, and as we grow in faith, he becomes more and more someone who’s at the very heart of the Christians’ lives, animating and empowering us to reflect Christ in the world. So, by being transformed by the Spirit within, so that Christ is really present within us, our lives can then come to reflect the reality of Jesus Christ and the world. Our lives become mobilized. They become witnesses to this mysterious glory of Jesus Christ, who’s revealed to the world. And so, what’s really significant here is that Christ is revealed through us. Not just us by ourselves, but us through the empowering work of the Holy Spirit. And that means that we have a key responsibility in this world to be people that are constantly bearing witness to that reality. And without us, without the church doing this work, there’s so many people that don’t get the opportunity to receive this reality in their lives, because God doesn’t do things without us. He might take priority, but God is very much creating a ministry that includes us and is using us to, to yeah, to spread the good news. [00:35:28] Anthony: Yeah. And then, part of that is this reconciliation that we have in Christ. He was reconciling all things to the Father, and I remind us of what Karl Barth wrote, “Christ accomplishes the reality of our reconciliation with God, not its possibility.” And I think that’s an important word, and in the way that the gospel, quote unquote, is often presented to the masses. All right. We have one pericope left in the month, so let’s transition to it. It is Colossians 2:6–15. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 12 in Ordinary Time, July 27. Andrew, we’d be grateful if you’d read it. [00:36:15] Andrew: Yes, of course. As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, continue to walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. 8 Watch out that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental principles of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have come to fullness in him, who is the head of every ruler and authority. 11 In him also you were circumcised with a spiritual circumcision, by the removal of the body of the flesh in the circumcision of Christ; 12 when you were buried with him in baptism, you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with him, when he forgave us all our trespasses, 14 erasing the record that stood against us with its legal demands. He set this aside, nailing it to the cross. 15 He disarmed the rulers and authorities and made a public example of them, triumphing over them in it. [00:37:35] Anthony: Hallelujah. Yeah. I’ve heard a few preachers say philosophy is to be avoided because it’s humanistic. And verse 8 is often referenced to make their point. And I wanted to ask this question of you because you’ve written a book that, which in part looks at the theological vision of Soren Kierkegaard, who was a philosopher. So, can theology and philosophy work together for good? And if so, how so? Andrew: Yeah. Great. So, one of the key things that we need to note in this passage is that the problem isn’t simply philosophy, it is philosophy defined according to human tradition, … Anthony: There you go. [00:38:11] Andrew: … according to the elemental principles of this world. Okay? So, philosophy is only a problem when its approach is grounded in a kind of naturalistic or an atheistic vision of the world, okay? … when it tries to become a its own form of theology or a theology, if you like … when it sees itself as a kind of human wisdom apart from God as being fundamental to think how we think about things. But when philosophy is simply functioning as a discipline, that in which we think hard about the meaning of concepts, about how these concepts relate to another and how we can use these concepts to make sense of the world, to become part of our arguments to wrestle with moral questions, metaphysical questions, a whole host of other things that are part of the theological task, then it does not need to be a problem whatsoever. Indeed, my experience has been that I’ve been able to, yeah, really grow in my theology by engaging not only, I think, with Christian philosophers, but secular philosophers as well. But what is really important is that we always recognize the fundamental role that theology plays in helping us to think about the philosophical task. So, philosophy always needs to be understood truly according to a theological framework. Okay, that means that when I’m doing, when I’m engaged in philosophy, I think that my approach to philosophy always needs to be a Christian approach. It always needs to, and therefore always needs to be theological in many respects. And so, I think this has been the case. If there’s ways in which Christian philosophy actually can be seen as a form of theology. I think there’s maybe more going on in theology when we’re engaging with questions in church history, when we’re engaging in biblical studies, and when we’re doing … there’s a lot going on when we’re engaged in the theological task. But I certainly think the one part of it can be the kind of work that we do with philosophy to develop our arguments, to understand the meaning of what we’re saying, yeah, in ways that can be more profound, really help us to be clear and more convincing about what we’re saying when we’re engaged in Christian theology. [00:40:34] Anthony: As you look across the landscape of philosophy, is there a stream of philosophy that concerns you the most, that is according to human tradition, that’s elemental, secular, atheological, as you said? Is there one that gives you more pause and concern than any other? [00:40:53] Andrew: It’s hard to just talk about a form of philosophy that is a particularly problematic. I think there’s ways in which different forms can have their own kinds of problems. I think in some ways, one of the approaches that concerns me, but I also think can be a very good thing, is certain approaches to say something like apologetics that suggests in various ways that in order for Christianity to be recognized to be true, we need to understand it in philosophical terms. Anthony: I love it. Andrew: There’s a real, there’s a real danger there that I think Christianity can become subject in certain approaches, and again, I definitely don’t want to generalize here, but there’s ways in which it can end up bending the knee, subjecting to authority that is primarily defined by human tradition, the elemental principles of this world. And theology is testifying to something much greater. So, it can’t be kind of constricted with the mechanism of the boxes of human tradition. And it’s a danger when we’re doing apologetics that we try to defend the nature of Christianity in ways that means Christianity ends up being conformed to a particular narrow view of human understanding, which can cause it to become much smaller than it actually is. [00:42:17] Anthony: It seems to me, Andrew, that in all things we have to have the highest possible Christology. Whether it’s philosophy, thinking about the way we live our lives, the way that we engage our neighbor ecclesiology, the way we think about the churches, it all comes back to Jesus Christ, doesn’t it? [00:42:33] Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:34] Anthony: If we want to end up in the right place. As simple as that. [00:42:38] Andrew: Yeah. And it’s very simple. I think sometimes when we talk a lot about God, I definitely think we always have to talk about God, but God is, can be such a … God is transcendent. God is hidden. God is beyond what we’re able to grasp with our own understanding. God is invisible and so when we’re given an image of that invisible God, it gives us something to which we can tone our eyes, which gives us a clarity in the midst of the uncertainty, which I think can just give us a confidence about who God is in relationship to creation that we wouldn’t otherwise be able to find. [00:43:17] Anthony: So, if you’re proclaiming this text to your congregation now in this moment, 2025, especially considering the geopolitical moment of uncertainty, what are you going to herald? [00:43:31] Andrew: Yeah, I’m going to herald Jesus Christ. The reality to be … Anthony: There you go. Andrew: … but not just Jesus Christ. As I’ve said a few times, we need to recognize that there’s no knowing Jesus Christ without works having to be stirred up in the world, and that the way in which you relate to the risen and ascended Jesus Christ is through the power of the Holy Spirit. We also don’t want to neglect the Father, God the Father who is overall, that we need to not just have a Christology, but also have a trinitarian ontology such that we understand who Jesus Christ is as a revelation, not just of the Son, but of the triune God … Anthony: Yes. Andrew: … in and through whom God is working in the world to draw creation into the love that God is in himself, in God’s sovereignty, in these three persons, in this communion of three persons. And when we experience that reality, our lives can begin to correspond to the coherence that undergirds all things, that holds all things together. And when we encounter that transformative power in our lives, I really think that the ways in which the world is divided can be overcome, that we can be drawn together in a way that means that we won’t escape the tensions and the disagreements, but those will never overcome the ways in which we learn to love one another. And I think that’s something to which the church really needs to give priority at this moment of time and needs to be seen as something that’s bringing unity, like coherence to the world, that is trying to bring people together rather than tear them apart. And there will of course be times when the church has to offer a challenge. I think there’s a need now for it to be bearing witness to one who is going to unite us, bring us together, despite the ways in which society might divide us. I’d love to see the church being a bit clearer on this point. [00:45:37] Anthony: Do you have a moment where I can ask you one final theological question before we wrap up? Andrew: Yeah. Yes, of course. Anthony: … because you said something that really is interesting to me. It’s fascinating. I’ve often said that Christology is the tip of the spear of theology, because God has revealed himself in Jesus Christ. But you said something that’s really, I think, important to discuss. Is there a way for the church to focus so much on Jesus Christ in isolation, that it does any sort of detriment in terms of the way that we teach or think about Christian living where Jesus stands alone apart from the Father and the Spirit? Is there anything that concerns you in that way? [00:46:22] Andrew: Yeah, we definitely don’t want to be doing Christology without a trinitarian theology. And there are so many dangers when we separate the two and neglect trinitarian theology. We can end up with a kind of view of Jesus Christ, as someone who is just an impressive philosopher, a teacher of wisdom who lived and died, and some people thought rose again 2,000 years ago. And then we miss out on the bigger picture. And so, we don’t want the church to just be a community that is following the philosophy of Jesus Christ. We’re following someone who is alive for us today and has continued to reveal God to the world as the one who’s the ground of our very existence, the very end for which, in which we find our fulfillment. And so, the danger with bracketing out the trinitarian theology is that we just end up with a much smaller Jesus, a nearly human Jesus. And when we go there, we miss out on the bigger picture. [00:47:29] Anthony: Yeah. And it’s a beautiful picture of the triune God — Father, Son, and Spirit. And I want to thank you for your time, Andrew. It’s been beautiful having this conversation with you. And friends, I want to leave you with this thought from Origen, one of the early church fathers. He said, “… for truly before Jesus, the scripture was water. But after Jesus, it has become wine for us.” So, as you drink in of holy scripture, may the Spirit mediate and may you be filled with the type of Spirit that leads you to intimacy with God. I want to thank our team that makes this podcast possible. Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, Michelle Hartman. It’s such a joy to work with these people who make all of this come together. And Andrew, again, thank you for your wisdom and insights of scripture as revealed in Jesus Christ. And as our tradition, we’d love for you to say a word of prayer for us as we close. [00:48:26] Andrew: Yes. Oh, let’s pray. Heavenly Father, we thank you for creating us to be so much more than we could ever be in and of ourselves, to become far more than we could ever imagine ourselves to be on our own, but to be people that are called to be united with you, to be people transformed by your grace and called of your glorious purpose as it is disclosed and in the person of Jesus Christ. And Lord, we thank you for rescuing us from the darkness. And for drawing us into the kingdom of your beloved Son, not just as a reality to anticipate when you die, but to a reality that we can live into today to experience the reality of redemption, to experience the forgiveness of sins every day in this world, so that we might be a light that could communicate this joy, this glory to the world. And so, Lord, to do this, we just ask that you would send your Spirit to fill us with the knowledge of your will, to awaken us to wisdom and understanding, and by the power of your Holy Spirit, Lord, be strengthened for us to walk in a manner that is worthy of you, to bear fruit with every good work, to grow deeper in our knowledge of who you are, and through that to understand more faithfully who we are all as witnesses to you and, Lord, just be asked that you’d root us in the hope of your glory, that Christ would be within us, so that we could reveal Christ to the world. Draw us close to you, Lord, that we might faithfully proclaim your wisdom, your grace, and your love to the world that so desperately needs it. We ask all these things in Jesus’ name. Amen. Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you! The post Andrew Torrance—Year C Proper 9-12 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources .…

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John Rogers—Year C Easter 7 through Proper 8 1:03:44

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John Rogers—Year C Easter 7 through Proper 8 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary . The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode . Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb . Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary , and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, John Rogers. John is the founder and director of Peterson House in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. Peterson House is a place for people to slow down, sit with Scripture, listen to it and each other, and have it shape their lives. You can find out more information at https://www.petersonhousenc.org , and we’ll place that in the show notes. Prior to starting Peterson House, John spent 22 years in various campus ministry roles, and he earned a Master of Divinity degree from Duke Divinity School, right here in Durham, North Carolina. John, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time, we’d like to know a little bit about you, your story, and how you’re participating with the Lord these days. [00:01:35] John: Thanks, Anthony. It’s good to be here. I think the best summary of who I am is someone that is a pilgrim on the way, trying to be close to the one who gives me more life than I can ever imagine. And I feel like my story speaks to that, a story that started back in 1972 when I was born in Raleigh, North Carolina. My dad a banker, my mother an insurance agent, and coming from a family; not any clergy. I think you had to go back a good bit on my mother’s side to find someone that was in the Lutheran church out in the Midwest. But I thought, when I was a kid … we soon moved to Florida where I had a lawn mowing business as a kid. I went to the beach, and I played a lot of golf. And I thought that’s just what I was going to do. I was really good — at the golf part. I think I was really good at the lawn mowing part too. It was, they looked really good. But I was recruited by a college back in North Carolina to come back and play collegiate golf for four years, where I was an all-American, and really was given a lot of opportunities with that. And my body started to take the toll from that twisting and turning. And it was a time in my life where I was in college, and I had a campus ministry program at a small Methodist college that took an investment in me. And when I figured out pretty quickly after interning at my father’s bank one summer that I probably was not meant for an office job and personal finance. And an intro class in my freshman year also suggested that I probably wanted to find some other things to do. [00:03:22] Anthony: Do you want to share your grades? Is that what you’re inviting us to do? [00:03:23] John: Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. Well, it was a C, and I realized that there were other things I probably loved doing more that I might be able to make a career out of. And so, it’s interesting. I know a lot of people find their way to studying religion and philosophy from a heart for it early on. But I found my way to the religion and philosophy program, because I had both a campus pastor and members of that faculty that took an interest in me. And I think that’s all often spoken to me loud and clear in my whole life, that when you take an interest and an investment in other people, of how you can speak truth over people’s life and invitation. And I graduated. I didn’t go off to the PGA tour, and I went to Duke Divinity School. And my first semester at Duke Div. when I was the RA at the Alpha Phi Alpha fraternity on West campus as a UNC fan my entire life. Thankfully, Duke was not good that year. It was the year that Mike Krzyzewski had some back problems, and he was out. So, they didn’t burn any benches outside of my dorm that I was responsible for. I started getting night sweats and blurred vision. Some people thought, “Hey, that’s probably just a stress of grad school.” Within a matter of weeks, I was in the hospital and being treated for Hodgkin’s disease and diagnosed with a form of lymphoma in my lymph system. And had that cancer diagnosis and spent it — I don’t know how other people spent their first year in Div. school — I spent it getting chemotherapy and radiation. And so, the good thing about that is, I could claim problems with my short-term memory because of that. So, when I didn’t do well on a polity exam or something, that was why. But soon I got back on the saddle and finished up there, headed off to my first call at a boys’ prep school in Tennessee. And then was there for 10 years in an academic role and really loved it. I was a coach as well. And then made my way back to North Carolina where I was a campus pastor at the University of North Carolina, with a campus ministry there, and got to do that for 12 years. I’ve got three kids. Got a daughter that’s down in Auburn, Alabama studying to be a nurse. And she just called me this morning saying that she passed her latest clinical with flying colors. I’m super proud. I was talking to her while I was at my cardiology appointment. So, we got to trade notes. That was helpful. And I have two little kids as well, a third and fifth grader — a boy and a girl that I’ll, that I get to spend a ton of time with. And then, I would say, your question around like, how am I participating in what the Lord is doing? I feel like that I am good for maybe the day or the week and having a sense of perspective of where the Lord is inviting me to be. And that sometimes is at a checkout aisle. Sometimes that’s in a setting where I’m facilitating some time in Scripture. But I think when we are disoriented — and my dad just died recently about two weeks ago — and I feel like when we come with a level of honesty and brevity to life that we’re honest about that we are finite creatures depending on God’s generous care and eternal promises, I think this whole concept of lingering and being purposeful and attentive — I just think that’s the way I’m going to live. That’s not an apology for the way I was aerobic in my life before I started this ministry. But I just, I don’t want to live any other way. And I feel like that is the exact posture that we get both of our God in the Hebrew Scripture, but especially in what we see in the incarnation of our God in Jesus that is a Savior that wants to slow down and be with us in that kind of space. So that’s a little bit about who I am and I’m just glad to be here. [00:07:21] Anthony: We’re glad to have you here, especially given the circumstances. You and I had talked offline, and I had heard about your father’s passing and we’re deeply sorry for your loss. And you also made the comment that struck me that Scripture is part of the healing process — just coming around the word of God. And that’s a big part of your life and what the Peterson House is about. Why don’t you tell us a little bit more about why you felt compelled to start it and lead this and maybe talk about some of that healing that comes through Scripture. [00:07:51] John: Yeah, thanks for asking it that way, Anthony. I just think it’s — I think it’s true and through my practice, I’m reaping benefits of the fruit that is being born from purposeful time in Scripture that I just don’t think I’ve ever gotten it in any other way. Peterson House was started; and it’s funny, the name Peterson, named in memory of Eugene Peterson, really Eugene and Jan and their hospitality of welcoming people to their home and the way that they were in Scripture with other people. At first it was called Uncovered Word Ministries. That’s our legal name. Our DBA is Peterson House. And it was originally drawn from this image that the Lord gave me. Back in this 2 Kings passage, I think I’m getting it right, where Josiah, one of the couple of good kings that we have, had some folks digging around in the temple. And I often thought that text was, it made more sense that it was after the destruction, and they were coming back, and it was like Ezra, Nehemiah, kind of cleaning things up. But when I got my history right, I understood that it was in disarray and disrepair at a time when it was not destroyed. And so, this vision that I had, was around how do we uncover Scripture in ways that it feels like it’s been lost? And eventually a friend of mine asked me as we were putting together a pilot, “Is there a person that inspired you, that is inspiring to you, and what they have done in their own ministry in something kind of like what you’re doing?” And I know not everybody knows who Eugene Peterson is, but he was super important to me. I met him once. He had a real heart for Scripture. And he was a poet. He loved being outdoors. He saw geography really as God’s way of playing out Scripture in a visible way. But the more I worked at this, I realized that my dilemma, and the reason why we created Peterson House, was pretty similar to Eugene Peterson back in the eighties when he was beginning to really enter into Scripture in a creative way, which we called the American vernacular. Eugene was up in the Baltimore, Maryland suburbs and Bel Air, and he was really struggling that his people there at the church — it was a new church development — that, one, they weren’t that interested in Scripture, and something that was so important to Eugene and really a heart for Scripture that his mother gave him, out in Montana when he was growing up as a kid — and his mom is a Pentecostal preacher — he said, “It seems like it’s not important to them.” That’s a big issue, because Scripture is the single most important indicator for your spiritual health. How do we figure out a way to get it in, to make it more accessible to you? And Eugene figured out a way to do that because he’s a scholar. And he had a gift of language and interpretation. I’ve not interpreted the entire Bible into whatever language that is familiar to Chapel Hill, North Carolina, but he did. And so, my dilemma here was, I was realizing with the college students that I was working with, and really not just them —you might think stereotypically college students — not really interested in Scripture and wanting to do a lot of other things —and maybe it was just that demographic, but when I was preaching at some local churches, I was realizing more and more that people just had absolutely no clue about Scripture. And I was, I felt like what they were saying to me in those settings where they were shaking my hand and I was leaving church — when they were leaving church — they were commending me for my excitement and enthusiasm for how I was in Scripture and the way that I preached on a Sunday morning. But I realized that it wasn’t just that they didn’t know Habakuk or some other obscure book in the Bible. They just didn’t know any of it. And I started doing some research and realized that this was a major issue. And my father used to say to me, you can recognize and diagnose a problem and then you’re left with a couple of options. And one is, are you going to do anything, are you capable of doing something about it? And so, I quit my job as a pastor at a big steeple church here in Chapel Hill. And it was a ministry that was going well, because I felt like the Lord was inviting me to do something about it in the same way that really Eugene felt like, hey! And I think it’s appropriate that today we’re reading some Galatians text. Because that’s where it started for Eugene. Like, how do we translate this into a language and really spend time in it? That it really is a story that is not this “antiquitous” story that is so inaccessible and foreign. It’s something that has a lot of life. And it’s kind of funny — I say to a lot of people — my enthusiasm goes a long way for Scripture to make other people excited about it. But what we do is not that hard. But all we’re doing is really the concierge service of saying we’re going to honor some time, and we’re going to read it a couple of times and we’re going to be in silence together. And then, when we have a conversation, and hear how the Spirit is opening up people’s hearts to this text, we are actually going experience it empowered by the Holy Spirit. And it’s just been so absolutely beautiful and life changing for me. And it’s really a confirmation to me that the Lord is really blessing this response and what we’re doing, not because of what we have in our bank account or what little money we’re able to raise to do this — because we don’t charge anybody anything to do it with us, with our small group ministry. But the people whose lives are being changed — and that really is really encouraging to me as we lead this ministry. And we’re basically a small group ministry online and in person just trying to honor that unhurried delight. Eugene used to say, we ought to approach Scripture the way that a dog lingers over a bone — that we savor it, that we let it metabolize into who we are. Because, you know what? If we eat it indifferently, we’re sticking our finger down our dog’s throat, trying to dig it out because they’re choking on it. And so, we want to linger. We want to let it seep into us. And I feel like that’s what we’re doing. [00:14:14] Anthony: God bless you. God bless the ministry of Peterson House. Eugene Peterson, like so many people, he’s a hero of the faith to me. My wife and I were on a boat on Flathead Lake there in Montana, just imagining what it would be like to hang out with him and Jan there. But yeah, what a gift he is. He tells it “slant” as is the title of one of his books. Thinking about the parables, and may we tell it slant as we come to Scripture here today and look at the lectionary text. So, thank you for being with me. Our first passage of the month is Revelation 22: 12–14, 16–17, and also 20–21. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version , the updated edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the seventh Sunday in Easter, which is June 1. “See, I am coming soon; my reward is with me, to repay according to everyone’s work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” 14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. “It is I, Jesus, who sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.” 17 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let everyone who hears say, “Come.” And let everyone who is thirsty come. Let anyone who wishes take the water of life as a gift. The one who testifies to these things says, “Surely I am coming soon.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus! 21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen. And when we come to Scripture, John, we’re always searching to find out what the text is revealing to us about God. So, from your perspective, your exegetical perspective, what does this text tell us about God? [00:16:07] John: I love, I always love thinking about the parameters of a text and what it says of kind of where we are in the book. And regardless of sort of our understanding historically of the chronology of the New Testament gospels and epistles, that this, here it is at the end, and this is the last word, and what it says to me about God’s character. God is, we are both saying, kind of this maranatha quote from Corinthians, like, “Come Lord Jesus” — that, we are asking that. But as I was thinking about this text in preparation for this recording, I was also imagining because I really, there’s so much in this world right now and in my life that I’m like, Lord Jesus, I just need you to come. And that’s not a temporary by the power of the Holy Spirit come. But I need you to come back and restore that which is broken in my life and in this world. But I’m also hearing a God of the covenant who is the Alpha and the Omega, who is saying, come to me. And there is this uniform openness to that which speaks to God’s character of invitation. And I think sometimes when we think about Revelation, we feel like that it’s just this wild apocalyptic eschatological book. And if we, and when we do that, it feels like that we paint a different picture, a wild picture of it. But I think at the heart of what we’re getting here at the end of our Scripture is a God that’s saying the same thing that he said. And I love that right before this text, Eden is restored. God is saying, “Come to me. I want to be in fellowship. I want to be in relationship. I want to be with you. And so, I’ve just proven that — I came to you.” Here we have Jesus saying, “I’m sending an angel to speak these things to you.” And we get a word of invitation. And the last word, Anthony, I think it’s so beautiful. The last word we get is grace. “The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen.” And so, I think that’s what I’m hearing here. [00:18:20] Anthony: If you’re preaching this text to the congregation, and of course it’s unique to every congregation, but what else would you convey beyond the fact that Jesus says, “Come,” and gives us the final word of grace. [00:18:32] John: I think this is king of funny because Eugene Peterson never liked either. He didn’t want to give verses, here and here, so he breaks it down occasionally, like three verses here, like in sections. And he certainly didn’t want to give the sections headers. But when I look at my Bible, I have a parallel Bible where on one side it’s the NIV, on the other side, it’s the Message. And I love, like, when I look at this, it says on one side, in the NIV, in the sections, the two sections in chapter 22, there are three sections. Eden Restored , John and the Angel . And then lastly, Epilogue, Invitation and Warning . And those feel pretty good and like structurally true. But I love what Eugene, when he is forced — I don’t know if it was him or somebody else in the editing process — to put a title where it says, right before verse 6, Don’t Put it away on the Shelf . I think as my invitation to anyone preaching this text will be reminded that though it is important to exposit God’s word in the pulpit, your words carry very little power if you are not dusting off that Scripture and letting it penetrate your life in your own private chamber. And I think we often think in transaction. Like I do it as well in teaching and facilitating, but I love that header. Don’t put it away on the shelf, don’t appropriate the text into a programmatic function or a function of the job that you might even be really gifted at. That here is a word that is alive, that is true, that is filled with goodness and grace and promise. That, if this is the Bright and Morning Star, let him be the bright and morning star as you put your sermons together, as you draw from this Scripture to let it encourage those people who have your attention. [00:20:26] Anthony: I’ve often wondered at John. What would it sound like if we actually took Scripture as the more important word than our own words as preachers and teachers? Huh? If we read Scripture in that way, that this is truly the most important word we’re going to receive today. And I’ve heard pastors say sometimes after stating a pericope, like we just read in Revelation that, “Oh, that taught itself. I should sit down now.” And sometimes I think, yeah, let’s just do that and leave it there. Especially with a book that says, don’t add any words or beware. John: That’s right. True. That’s true. Anthony: Let’s transition to our second pericope of the month. It is John 14:8–17. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Pentecost on June 8. John, would you read it for us please? [00:21:15] John: Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, but if you do not, then believe because of the works themselves. 12 Very truly, I tell you, the one who believes in me will also do the works that I do and, in fact, will do greater works than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If in my name you ask me for anything, I will do it. 15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate, to be with you forever. 17 This is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him because he abides with you, and he will be in you. [00:22:44] Anthony: So much good there. Jesus said, “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” John, this strikes me as significant in how it shapes our theological understanding of God. Tell us more. [00:22:57] John: Yeah, I love this text, as complicated as it is, and I think John just gets wordy sometimes. But I think it’s culturally appropriate when he was writing. I think all these words say, and what Jesus is saying so succinctly is, if you’re looking at me, you are seeing face to face — pr ó sopon me pr ó sopon — you’re seeing God. And when I think of that, like, I imagine Philip and the others, the ones that were afraid to even ask the question, oh my gosh, Anthony! They’re still saying I need to see more. What this says about God’s character in Jesus is, “You’re seeing my very character, my life giving, reconciling character in me.” Right? Here we are in John 14 leading up to Jerusalem and to the cross, and still God continues to pour God’s self out even when we want more proof. And so, the theological understanding of this and what it says of God is, I love, that God’s character and what God is wanting to convey is not contingent on my need for more data or proof. [00:24:21] Anthony: Yeah. Amen. And amen to that. It stands on its own two feet. Truth is truth. It is not enhanced by how many believe it. It is not diminished by who doesn’t see it. And I still, I just — you can hear Jesus’ heart like, “Philip, we just came from the upper room. Did you, were you not paying attention? Do you not see the Father at work when you see me?” And I wonder how often, if we were walking with Jesus, he would say the same to me, like, “John, Anthony, guys, have you not seen it?” And so, we … [00:24:58] John: Anthony, I think as you’re saying that, what’s so interesting —I didn’t even think about this until right now — is that, like, when I think of Philip, I rarely think of Philip in the gospel of John. I think of Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, right? Anthony: Sure. John: And so, when I hear this promise and this, really this, blessing over Philip and the company of the other disciples that were being told they’re going to do far greater things than their master. And not just their master, not just their rabbi, but the Son of God. They’re going to do far greater things — that here, Philip is in an instrumental way of basically taking the church to North Africa. And so, it just blows my mind that I read this in light of a fuller story that Philip does not have that perspective yet, … [00:25:43] Anthony: And he will get it. And that leads me to my next question or thought: it’s about the Spirit of Truth. Yes, I heard you say earlier that, “Jesus, come,” and that is our prayer and our cry, “Lord Jesus, come!” But it’s not as if he’s absent, because he promised these very same disciples, he would be with them to the end of the age, that he was sending another, the Advocate, the Spirit of Truth, who would reveal the truth to them. So, tell us about the work of this Spirit of Truth and what he is doing to reveal to us the truth of who he is. [00:26:17] John: Yeah. I think there’s two ways that I think of this. I think there’s this perspective of me understanding as I’m reading Scripture as much as I can of how the Spirit unveils things to me. In my world, it’s often with other people, of trying to broaden how I’m hearing and experiencing something by how the Spirit is really burning in the heart of other people, and paying attention. But, like, the Spirit is a Spirit of Truth. It’s not a Spirit of hesitation. It’s not a Spirit of, like, “Hey, it’s a little bit of a riddle, like a parable — let’s try to figure it out together. We won’t really figure it out.” But the Spirit, I feel like to me as I hear this, it is a Spirit of Truth. And I wrestle with this because, how much am I able to understand? I’m coming from a reform background and I never want to be so bold as to feel like I’ve narrowed in on all of it. I feel like I’ve had a really good perspective here and everybody else’s heterodox. But the other part … so, one part is how I read Scripture and how I understand this as much as I can. But Anthony, I think the other part of this too is and I wrote this down, is what I am doing blessed by the Spirit? Like I always feel like I’m about a halfway off. Like I need the Spirit to orient me to the ways I’m really messing things up or I don’t have the confidence, right? I don’t have the confidence to trust what the Spirit has made true, and like, I’m wrestling with whatever is making me anxious or my scale in trying to figure out what’s confirmation that I’m doing the right thing is, I really do wrestle with, like, where do I get the confirmation that the Spirit of Truth is, that what I say I’m being led to do by the Spirit, my Friend, my Advocate is actually blessed by that Spirit. And I don’t know. I think that’s an integrity question. Anthony: Yes. John: And I think you know, your question of what is the role the Spirit has in the works we do, which reveal our belief in Jesus as it states here? I think just trusting that the Spirit is true. Anthony: Yeah. Trust, my brother. John: I’ll say this really quick. My uncle said to me this weekend, after really just trying to process a lot about my dad’s death, he says, “Don’t complicate it. Be gentle with yourself.” And I think sometimes I try to complicate what actually is the Spirit doing in me and in my life and in the Scripture — how to keep it simple and to trust that the Spirit … [00:29:11] Anthony: Trust that the Spirit is true — that he, there is this ongoing revelation that he’s leading us into truth. And this is where I think, John, for me, I’m just speaking from my perspective where I have to hold loosely to things — I am where I am today, but it’s not going to be probably where I’ll be in five to 10 years theologically. And so, this is why, for me, repentance in the way that we see it in the Greek metanoia , the changing of our mind, is so important because one of my prayers before I proclaim the gospel is, “Lord, may I speak truth.” And if I do, rub it in deep into our hearts and souls. But if I say something that’s less than true, may it just dissolve, like vapor be gone and forgotten, because I just know that I’m seeking truth. The Spirit is leading me to truth. I want to trust him, but that doesn’t mean that everything that I say is true. And so, this is why it’s so important to point to Jesus, because he is the embodiment of truth. John: Yeah. Anthony: And Lord, forgive us when we’ve been less than true, but thank you for leading us. John: Yeah. Anthony: And wooing us by your Spirit. Hallelujah. Our next pericope of the month is John 16:12–15. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Trinity Sunday on June 15. And it reads, I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own but will speak whatever he hears, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine. For this reason I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. Trinity Sunday is another opportunity for proclaimers of the gospel to talk about the Trinity, but not as some dusty old doctrine or a mathematical conundrum, but the reality and relational substance of life. John, let me ask you this. What do you make of the Trinitarian dynamics found in this particular text? [00:31:29] John: I think especially as I read verse 13, “when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth for he will not speak on his own, but will speak whatever he hears.” I hear in this that there is a reliance on the parts of the Trinity with one another. And I’m in this Sunday school class right now at our church in Durham, North Carolina that is going through pretty much all the movements of Trinitarian theology in the fourth century with the Council of Nicaea and people getting kicked out, coming back in, kicked out, coming back in, one statement here, another statement there, conversations around substance and ousia and hypostasis . And I found myself in that class on Sunday, and I really respect the people that are leading it. But a lot … what has come up a lot in this class is, what is it about the Trinity that is saying to us about who God is? And when I think about that, and I think about your question, and here we are on Trinity Sunday. It’s … we’re probably best left with leaving it, as it seems quite biblical, but yet it feels like it falls in a maybe category of mystery that we want to be careful not to over-define it. Anthony: Oh, for sure. John: And I feel like this — I had somebody in in seminary once described it to me as — this dance. And again, I think we struggle with the oneness and the separateness of the Spirit. But I just love that it seems like here what we’re getting from Jesus and the Gospel of John is like, there’s an interchange in reliance on each part of the Trinity with one another, and however they’re tied together, whatever substance they are of, with one another. And I don’t want to be nailed as a heretic today on this podcast. But I think that’s the beauty of what Jesus is speaking to them and leaving with them, is that “I have a lot more to say to you. The Spirit would unveil that to you. And just be in a place of receiving that.” [00:33:39] Anthony: Yeah. I appreciate what you said about the beauty of the relationship. And sometimes you hear the Trinity discuss in such a way that it’s like a riddle to be solved instead of a relationship to be enjoyed … John: Yeah. Anthony: … to enter into. The fact that in Christ we get to enjoy unfettered relationship with the Father in the communion of the Spirit. It’s a beautiful thing that is, as you said, a mystery. And thank God that he’s a mystery. Like we should still be in awe of the, just the awesomeness, and the bigness of our God. That’s one of the takeaways that I see here. John, if you’ll allow me, I’d like to make this a bit personal. Would you be willing to share maybe an event, a season in your life, where you experienced the Spirit guiding you into truth, maybe in surprising and unexpected ways? And how did that experience shape your understanding of God? [00:34:38] John: Yeah. I’ve been, and I mentioned it in my introduction to myself earlier on, I’ve gone through a couple of pretty big medical events in my life. And one recently, gosh, back in September of 2023. I went into a heart cath. lab thinking that they were just going to say, “Nothing needs to be done, head on home” to, “Oh my goodness, this is not good. You need to stay and we’re going to do surgery on Friday.” Having triple bypass heart surgery as a 50-year-old man because of some impact of a radiation field back in my twenties with my Hodgkin’s diagnosis. And for three days I had to wait for my surgery; from that point of finding that out on a Tuesday, I was having surgery on a Friday. And everything down to having your, all your whole body shaved down so that you’re ready for surgery, all the tests run, all the pulmonary functionality tests run —everything. Come Friday morning they wheel me down the hall. And I think everybody I knew in my life, and it’s weird … and it’s weird when people look at … I don’t know if you’ve had this happen to you in your life, Anthony, but when people look at you in a way that they think it might be the last time they see you. Anthony: Oh wow. John: And I just had to deal with that. My father-in-law, I still remember him walking in to see me the night before. And he came back in my room several times because he couldn’t leave. And I knew what he was doing. And so, what happened on Friday morning when they took me to surgery around five o’clock in the morning, is my pastor … and it’s weird being a pastor and having a pastor is such a gift, but one of our pastors at our church showed up around 5:30 in the pre-op area. And if you’re familiar with pre-op, I mean it’s a lot going on at 5:30 in the morning on a Friday when a lot of surgeries happen. And he walked in and he said, “John, can I pray with you?” And what I was saying to him is, I said, “David, I keep hearing the word.” And it helped that I was reading a book about God’s loyalty and God’s faithfulness, hesed , that I just found myself repeating that word all morning. And it wasn’t like some, I don’t know some hypnotic effect of just say this word a lot and then you’ll believe it and live into what the word actually means. I had every reason in that moment to be in full on panic. I was the husband of a wife I deeply adore and love getting to be in life with and in ministry with. I have three kids. I have a ministry that is growing and people that I feel like I’m engaging. And there was a conceivable chance that I was not going to come out of that surgery. No matter how great a candidate I was, no matter how young they thought I was to be having this surgery, how early they caught it. But I felt like that the Holy Spirit in that moment was saying, “John, I’m loyal to you. And my faithfulness is not any less faithful if you do not survive this surgery.” [00:37:47] Anthony: Amen. [00:37:48] John: And you know what I think, Anthony. I feel like that, often, whether we call it prosperity gospel or something else, we often have this transactional understanding in the back of our head that, Lord, I’m just serving you. I’m like, I love you. I wake up every day, and why in the world do you want to give me, like, a coronary bypass procedure? I should be protected from things like that. But what I felt in that moment was not the transaction of my God, failing me. And I know it’s not everybody’s story, but it’s my story. And my pastor said that you’re the only one I’ve ever heard reciting a Hebrew word hesed when they’re going into surgery. And I can imagine it like it was yesterday and it was nothing short of the power of the Holy Spirit, that I think in one place I’m asking the Spirit to give me clarity in the way I read Scripture. And that’s happened time and time again. But the way that this fruitfulness of wanting to receive the Holy Spirit to get the benefit of it, that’s not what I want, but what God desires for me. And I just can’t explain it. And my mother is in one of our small groups and she said to the group a couple of months later, when I’d come back for the first time, when we’re asking a question around of what do we see and admire in other people and like where we see the Spirit at work in the world. And to hear my mother say it, and my mother has stage four cancer, and she had to be admitted in the hospital later that day when I was going into surgery because of her own pain that she was managing. And we’re both coming back to this small group and hearing my mother say, “I noticed something about my son that was unexplainable and was only under … could only be understood as one thing, that … the Spirit of God that is often unleashed in a way with a Pentecostal fervor, right? … that the Spirit was unleashed in a way that was more Quaker-like, right — that ‘I’m going to give a hush of peace that will allow you to enter into that surgery regardless of what was going to happen.’” [00:39:53] Anthony: That’s … thank God for that. First of all, I’m thankful that he brought you through, but I so appreciated what you said before; even if he hadn’t … John: Yeah. Anthony: … God is faithful. He’s good — hesed — that faithful love is true regardless. And so often we do get into this mindset — it’s just based on the situation, the circumstances of my life. No, Lord, we are above all people blessed. John: Yeah. Anthony: We are so blessed, but I am thankful that he has brought you through to be able to share that for others, including your father-in-law, to see … John: Yeah. Anthony: … to see the trust that you had in him —that bears witness to the goodness of God. So, I really appreciate you sharing that with us. [00:40:42] John: And one last thing I would say, Anthony, is that often, like when I used to think about, especially like on Trinity Sunday, and like we think about the roles of each, and still on the heels of Pentecost, we think of the Spirit as this kind of violent wind. This fire feels, oh, it’s going to loosen my tongue and I’m going to speak in an unknown language. It feels wild that there, what I’ve noticed about, like the Spirit is, the Spirit can be very gentle and tender, and like our first text when we were thinking about like this invitation of, “Come to Me.” Anthony: Yes. John: That there is a place of invitation that the Spirit is, that what the Spirit is doing is gentle and kind. [00:41:28] Anthony: Yeah. Almost a wooing, right? John: Yeah. Anthony: Come and see, taste and see, that the Lord is good. Come with me. Let’s go. Let’s go on to our next text. It’s Galatians 3:23–29. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 7 in ordinary time, which is June 22. John, read it for us please. [00:41:48] John: Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be reckoned as righteous by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith. 27 As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is no longer Jew or Greek; there is no longer slave or free; there is no longer male and female, for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to the promise. [00:42:40] Anthony: “… one in Christ Jesus.” What would you want the audience to know about Paul’s emphasis of Christ and faith in him being the new reality over the law? [00:42:51] John: Yeah. Every time I come to Galatians there’s really only one thing that I feel like is just sounding an alarm throughout the entire correspondence: Christ is enough. When we try to do “Christ, and” to feed … like we kind of get the theology of justification by faith correct. But, yet, we still live within the pattern of wanting to do something on the back end to really justify ourselves. Anthony: Yeah. John: And we even kind of write it to say, it’s like the process of sanctification. But I, what I love here is, all these things — the and …, the more … — that is really the background of this correspondence, where it was being sold a bill of goods, that yes, Jesus died for your sins, but there are some other things that you need to do to confirm that, to do more. And I love the emotion that we get from the Apostle Paul here. And I feel like it is an important … I think it’s an important, strong word of saying, be wary when you ever sense that someone is saying, “You need to do more.” And I … but right before I came on this call today, I kid you not, it was … I don’t know where I was hearing it. It must have been on the radio somewhere, or a podcast. But it, no, it was on NPR, I think, where they were interviewing someone, I think in Japan, about the Unification Church. And like, a key concept with within this, he was saying, … and it’s been a long time since I’ve taught this, so forgive me if I’m getting any of this wrong … But really, basically it was: yeah, there needs to be more. And I think when I read this text from Paul in Galatians, and when I think about any movement that has ever happened historically in the Church is, what is it about us that we always want to do more? And he’s enough, right? If you belong to Christ then you are a … you don’t need to do something within some ceremony, or some either circumcision, or some kosher ritual, or maybe some pattern of celebration — that you are heirs. Like to this gentile community, “If you’re gentiles that are hearing this, that you’re like” … “oh my gosh, I’m really not in the inside group here.” No. And hearing, oh my goodness, Anthony, hearing this come from a guy like Paul, like someone who is studying under Gamaliel, that if anybody is going to communicate, yeah, you’re not in, you got to do some more stuff. No. I feel, like, how often in my own ministry, in my life, I run into people that feel like I’m not enough. I need to do something to earn it. I’ve been so bad, or I feel like that I don’t understand it well enough. It’s an intellectual exercise. I’m not ready. To hear someone say, “You right now, you are an heir,” it has a lot of power. [00:45:55] Anthony: It does. And I wonder, John, and I’ve thought about this a lot … if it’s really our pride, we’re offended to hear that Christ is enough for me. No, I’m going to pull my boots up by the straps and I’m going to work. And J.B. Torrance, the Scottish theologian, often talked about the greatest sin of humanity is turning God’s covenant into a contract. And anytime we try to add something to what God has done, we’re turning it back into a contract. No, it then it becomes quid pro quo. God, I’ve done this for you; now you’ve got to do this for me. This is how this works. because that’s how contracts work. No, this is covenant and Christ is all. Oh, and that’s good news. When we let it just seep into the marrow of our bones. That’s such good news. John: Yeah. Anthony: What would you have to say about verse 28? What’s your interpretation? [00:46:46] John: Yeah. I have spent a lot of time with this verse over the last couple of years, and I think there’s so much thought around. If someone wants to know who I am, right? What’s my identity? And I elevate things and into a place of essential parts of my identity. Like what’s essential, like I think in these conversations, regardless of position on how we understand people’s understanding of their identity, I think there’s just a problem. There’s a uniform problem. And it’s indicting to me, Anthony, because, do I lead, do I honestly lead, with my primary and essential part of my identity is, I belong to him? And it’s like, I’m not Jew or Greek. I’m not a Carolina fan or a Duke fan, right? I’m not a Northerner or Southerner. I’m not a guy with a certain color skin. I’m male or female. I feel like that we often lead with so many things that are qualities of us, characteristics of us, even like things that we like and are good for our lives, even like the way we lead with things that we like to eat that associate us with a place of culture. Do I lead … verse 28 is really saying, “You are in me.” Anthony: Yeah. John: That’s your primary identity. And I think a big part of what we attempt to do as a ministry at Peterson House is like, can we not just be in the text together and immerse ourselves in it to really get what this is saying? So that it’s not like a posturing of, “I need you to know this about me, because that’s going to tell you more about who I am.” And I think it’s one thing if you’re not even a person of faith and you lead with any number of things of who you are. But it is such an indictment of me in the way I think about it, do I lead …? If someone says, “Hey, can you tell me a little bit about yourself, John?” Anthony: Oh yeah. John: I am tied inextricably to this person of Jesus. And my primary identity is defined, everything connected to that, and everything is subordinate to it. And I feel like for me when I hear this text read even again today is I’m hearing freedom, that you’re no longer those things that are definable about you, that you think are definable, but you like, you have been set free to be “in me.” [00:49:31] Anthony: Yeah. And I wonder once again, if it’s pride that gets the best of us, that we want to put our identity in other things, when Christ is all sufficient. He is enough. And what does it look like today to be clothed by him? And I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s just to identify with that, I am a beloved child of God. Not because of who I am, but because of who he is. Not because I’ve loved well, but because he’s loved well. And that is enough for me today and tomorrow … [00:50:03] John: and all those other things separate us from one another. Anthony: That’s right. John: If God is going to say in God’s character, I’m not separating myself from you in the love of Christ Jesus, why in the world do we keep doing this with the way that we separate ourself from one another? [00:50:17] Anthony: Amen. Amen. John: And yeah, I think we just … and unfortunately when we do that … we just don’t get the best of one another. Anthony: That’s right. And that’s why I’ve held back from telling you I’m a Kentucky Wildcat fan. Because I didn’t want to cause division between brothers, John. Sorry. [00:50:37] John: Touche. Yeah. [00:50:40] Anthony: Our final pericope of the month is Galatians 5:1, 13–25. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Proper 8, in ordinary time, which is June 29. For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become enslaved to one another. 14 For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If, however, you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another. 16 Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. 24 And those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. John, for me, freedom is one of those kinds of tricky words, because the definition …. Many attached to that word don’t look like freedom that we see in the Bible. Freedom does not mean we can do whatever we want, as the Scriptures testify, and yet Christ has truly set us free. So, what should Christians make of this Christological freedom? [00:52:52] John: Yeah, I think when we often think of the word freedom, we feel like we’ve been loosed. We’ve been set free from something that bound us in some way. And the irony here is this Christological understanding of freedom, as I understand it, is still bound, right, but appropriately bound to finding our greatest freedom in tying ourself to our Savior Jesus. And I think we confuse and we kind of have these conversations around agency and around wanting to make sure that my opinions are being heard, that I feel like that that I matter in this world, that I’m not being crushed by someone else’s definition of me or having a stereotype of me, and I want to feel free. I feel like that is like a wonderful place to be. We even think of it within the context of our American history about what freedom means. But when we say we’re followers of Jesus, and we’re talking about freedom, what I hear here from Paul is, and it’s one of the biggest topics for Paul, bar none, right? Anthony: Yes. Right. John: And you, and I feel like you got to get it right. Be very careful to not lose yourself so much, to not tie yourself being obedient to the person of Jesus, not the one who will restrict you from who you are meant and created to be. But it is only in him where you will be free. Right? Anthony: Yes. John: And I feel like I’m, as I’m saying this, and I’m sitting here in the middle of it as we’re recording it, and I’m imagining when this is going to be. People are trying to figure out what to preach on this summer, like in the heat of summer, where a lot of people aren’t even showing up to church. They’re on vacation; they’re all over the place. It’s what are, how are, we fooling ourselves to think the bill of goods that we’ve bought is something that makes me think that the freedom, total freedom is a good thing, when … Anthony, I think as a parent of some young kids, I think total freedom can be crushing. And so, I think having a good understanding here of … we need to clarify what are we being freed from … the law, right? Freed from the impact of the first century culture, which would define me within a Greco-Roman context. Free me from the Judaizer controversy that is telling me I needed these other things. I need to be freed from that. Like freedom does not pull me away from taking Jesus as I need him, but saying I want to be freed from these other things that are like barnacles, right? Anthony: Yeah. John: That are like these things under the boat. And I’ve cleaned them from my father-in-law’s boat before. And it stinks. It absolutely stinks, and you don’t want to have to do it, but you’re sitting there with a spackle knife chipping it all away to get to free the boat for it to be able to be used the way it’s intended to be used. It’s like I think about that image of what needs to be cut away for me to be the one who is designed by my God to be freed, to be in that kind of relationship with God in the first place. [00:56:15] Anthony: Yeah. And under the inspiration of the Spirit. Paul understood the things that you think are free, these desires you have, they actually bring about bondage. And so, this freedom is real freedom. It’s freedom from death and sin, but it’s freedom for God and his good purposes for your life that will ultimately set you free and free indeed. It’s such a big topic. Anything else you’d want to say about it before we move on? [00:56:42] John: Yeah. I think — and you may be going to another question here, but I may beat you to it — is when I hear this text of this freedom in Christ, this sort of relationship that I get that actually gives birth to a better way of living, like we think about the praxis of our faith. And I love … that’s one of the things that Eugene Peterson said a lot. He actually said, “I think this is livable. I actually think following Jesus is livable. You can do this stuff.” Anthony: Yeah. John: And we fool ourselves. And this … I don’t want to say the “we” is other people — I’m included in that. What is it about the works of the flesh, whether we call it impurity, debauchery, or any of the others — like even the good things that I turn into ultimate things, like when we think about Tim Keller and his counterfeit gods is like, why do I keep feeding myself these other things when they don’t satisfy me? When, if I live in communion with my Savior in a way that’s available to me, it produces something that is so dang gratifying. Anthony: Yeah. John: And it produces the fruits of the Spirit. Who doesn’t like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Maybe one there you could do without. I don’t know. But, it’s like, I think these fruits of the Spirit — this is a better way to live, that it’s not driven. And Anthony, I think, as a parent, what is it about the marketing of the things of the world that is fooling my children and others to believe that it will satisfy them? And I see it all the time. I see it in people in my neighborhood when they’re trying to do any number of things to fix themselves, to heal themselves. And I’m just thinking to myself, there is only one thing that’s going to set you free from, and not just set you free to feel confident about your sort of salvific future, but really set you free to bear fruit in the world in these qualities of the Spirit that is so attractive. That I just I think that comment of Eugene’s of, “Live this out a while, and you’ll find that it is far more satisfying than the temporary pleasure that any of those other things will give you. What will it take, for you to come over here to live by the Spirit?” [00:59:05] Anthony: Yeah. And this is why just being converted is so important to have biblical literacy, because when I look at the fruit of the Spirit contained in verse 22, John, that stands in opposition to the world. John: Yeah. Anthony: Stands in opposition to a lot of voices clamoring for our attention, for your children’s attention. And this is why we have to keep coming back to Scripture time and time again to be fed by truth. Because the world doesn’t tell us to love your neighbor as yourself. Get yours. Yeah. And if that oppresses your neighbor, so be it. And we dress it up as accomplishment and winning sometimes. So, it’s, man, this is so important that we keep coming back to what Paul is communicating here, that this is what true freedom looks like. [00:59:49] John: Yeah. With without a doubt. And Anthony, at the very end, it’s not just live by the Spirit. I love that it says, be guided by the Spirit. [00:59:59] Anthony: The Spirit is with us. Lead us. Lead us, Lord. And it makes me think, and I wanted to get this in as we come to conclusion here, we’ve talked a lot about Eugene Peterson and he wrote a book called The Jesus Way . And I want to share a quote with you. It says, “The way of Jesus cannot be imposed or mapped. It requires an active participation in following Jesus as he leads us,” going back to what you just said, “as he leads us through sometimes strange and unfamiliar territory in circumstances that become clear only in the hesitations and questionings, in the pauses and reflections, when we engage in prayerful conversation with one another and with him, this is what the life is. This is the Christ life.” John, I want to thank you for being with us. John: My pleasure. Anthony: Thank God for you. Thank God for your active participation in his ministry. I also want to thank our team just an outstanding podcast team, Michelle Hartman, Elizabeth Mullins, Reuel Enerio for the work that they do to make this possible. And to all of you as our listening audience. John, thank you so much, and as is our tradition here on Gospel Reverb, we end with prayer. So, we’d love for you to pray for us. [01:01:09] John: Lord, we’re grateful for who you are. So much of this message that inspires us in the gospel, Lord, it seems wild. It seems foolish. It seems crazy. It seems upside down. And for those that are listening to this podcast who are invited either to find creative ways to teach it in the classroom, or to speak and be inspired by the Scripture from the pulpit, Lord, I pray that your Spirit would bless each of the listeners here. Those that are seeking a good word, Lord, that they would hear where you are guiding them by the power of your Holy Spirit to speak words confidently to those who are listening to them that are giving them their attention. But Lord, I pray that has been true in my own life and I have been thankful for your character in the way that you have done this time and time again. But I pray that the listeners, those that you have entrusted to be those who are proclaiming your good news and doing their best to set the captives free to, to give them a new story to hold onto that really will set them free, that you will begin that freedom, Lord. And the one who is wrestling with Scripture in the first place, in the first step, to even get it to the next step of communicating it to someone else, Lord, would you stir in their hearts, would you remind them of the seeds that you have planted in them, the investment, the covenant, the invitation, Lord, the maranatha that we say, “Come, Lord Jesus,” be with them. Lord, we are confident that you will do far more than we ask or imagine. We pray this in the name of our Savior Jesus. Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you! The post John Rogers—Year C Easter 7 through Proper 8 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources .…

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Gospel Reverb Bonus Episode—Jared Neusch 53:12

8 weeks ago53:12

53:12

Jared Neusch—Christian Pacifism Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode. Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. This is a bonus episode covering a topic and material, which is a deviation from our normal episodes. As always, Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights and commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Jared Neusch. Jared is a research assistant and project manager for the McDonald Agape Nicaea Project at St. Mellitus College. He earned a PhD in New Testament at King’s College in London, England. The topic of this bonus episode is Christian passivism. Maybe said another way, we’re asking ourselves, does God reveal himself in the person and work of Jesus Christ to be a nonviolent God? And if so, what are the implications for followers of Christ? Let me say from the start, I know this is a controversial topic, which Christians have disagreed about and will continue to be in disagreement about — sometimes vehemently. You may find yourself pushing back on the content of this discussion, and that’s okay. But let’s grapple with it together. I believe it’s important for mature Christians to listen and reason with theological impulse of those who embrace nonviolence as a way of God. Grace Communion International is the denominational sponsor of the Gospel Reverb podcast. And by hosting this conversation, GCI is not endorsing Christian passivism. Full stop. And yet, as your host, I’m grateful to be a part of a denominational home willing to have challenging conversations like this one. Now that we have that introduction behind us, let’s welcome our guest. Jared is joining Gospel Reverb podcast for the second time. So, welcome back, and I so thoroughly enjoyed our first conversation. So, Jared, how are you doing these days? [00:02:33] Jared: Oh, thanks so much for having me back. I really enjoyed our first conversation, so I was excited to get an invitation to come and talk a bit more. Yeah, thank you. It’s been a cold, cloudy England as you might expect. But the days are beginning to get a bit longer. So, joy and hope are on the up and up here. [00:02:53] Anthony: Joy and hope it is. And I hope you had a wonderful holiday season. This episode is going to come out in the first quarter of the year. And this is an important conversation for us to have. And you and I, offline, talked a little bit about labels, and Christian pacifism can be a label. So, I think it’s important when we define something as to say, okay, what is it? But also, what is it not? And Jared, what are some of the common misconceptions about Christian pacifism? [00:03:23] Jared: Yeah. So, I guess just to start, it’s important to clarify that this is Christian pacifism. There is just pacifism, and it could just be a general abstinence from violence. And this is not that. This is a view that is an attempt to follow Jesus, to follow his ways and his teaching. And then as a result, you wind up being nonviolent. So, it’s a devotion to Christ that then as a byproduct ends up being a pacifist. That’s a bit of an early clarification in terms of what we mean by Christian pacifist. There are definitely many varieties and expressions of this, as there are with most views and stances. The term pacifist comes from the Latin pax , which is “peace” and the second word, “doing.” So, it originally meant “peace doing,” which is an active concept. And that speaks to probably one of the biggest misconceptions about pacifism. It unfortunately sounds a bit like “passive,” although it’s spelled differently. So, this is a common misconception that passivism means being passive. It means “doing.” And sure, there may be some pacifists who are passive, but I would argue that’s not a fair representation of Christian pacifism in as much as we think Christ was passive. To address that thought that if you’re not violent, you’re passive, it’s quite a revealing notion. It shows that our imaginations can be a bit limited when we think, well, if we’re not violent, we’re doing nothing. And that’s certainly not the case. So, just to say what it is, I would say it’s a brave and active lifestyle. It is active in the sense that it resists evil. It resists the sword. It pursues justice. It loves the friend and the enemy. And in doing all of the above, it actively lays down its life. So, I like to think of the image of the good Samaritan, sometimes to help make sense of pacifism. Some imagine Christian pacifist as the Levite and the priest who passed the injured person on the road and in their moral purity, they’re unable to get their hands dirty with blood. So, if that person that’s injured represents a violent conflict, it’s like we can’t do that. So, we avoid conflict because we have this ethical standard that keeps us from doing that. So, we skirt to the side of the road when other people have to get the real stuff done. But rather I would say that the Christian pacifist is the one who stops gets down with the injured party. Puts their own life at risk and their resources by doing so. In short, I’d say it’s an attempt to engage with and to overcome evil without attempting to achieve it via the sword. [00:07:01] Anthony: Well said. So, I’m curious how and where from the New Testament, does one draw a nonviolent ethic? [00:07:12] Jared: Wow. Well for me, I guess once you’re open to the possibility that this is a natural result of following Christ, it’s been my experience that you then can’t unsee it dominating the New Testament. I’ve found that the question can be a bit more easily flipped on its head. Rather than: what New Testament evidence is there for not killing your enemies? You could almost more easily ask, what New Testament evidence is there for killing your enemies? But it’s still a very good question. So, let’s do look at what evidence there is for nonviolence. As I said, there’s a lot so I won’t go on and on, in case Anthony is afraid he’s going to read Matthew 1 through the end of Revelation. But just to flag a few. Predictably, it’s probably a great place to start in one of the most famous pieces of text, Matthew 5 to 7 the Sermon on the Mount. So, he begins his sermon on the kingdom with a list of types of people who are blessed. So, in a conflict, going through this list of “blessed are this person, this person,” when you think in terms of a conflict, it’s really no mystery on which side of the sword Jesus envisions his community. So, he sees them as the peacemakers, those who are mourning, those who are merciful, those who are meek, those who are persecuted. So, you see, okay, he’s anticipating the people in the kingdom are going to be intense situations where there’s conflict. And he lists those who are blessed and it’s all those who are persecuted and those who are mourning and those who are meek and those who were merciful. So, it starts off with a real bang there. And then when you get deeper into chapter 5 — very famous — verses 38 and 39, “You’ve heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say, do not resist an evildoer.” That’s a big line. And then he goes on. “But if anyone strikes you in the right cheek, turn the other also.” And he gives some subversive examples that we can sink our teeth into. He then says a bit later, “You have heard it said, you shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy, but I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven.” And he says some powerful stuff there, which I won’t get into now, but basically, he says, this is what God does, and you can look at the weather, the rain, and the sunshine and how it doesn’t really favor anyone. This is how he loves his enemies. So, if you want to look like God, you do this too. You love everyone. So, that’s really powerful at the end of chapter 5. Matthew 26, in a heroic effort to save Jesus from arrest, Peter jumps in and swings his sword and cuts off the ear of the high priest’s slave. And after telling him to put away his sword, Jesus issues a really powerful proverb on violence. And he says, first of all, “Put that away.” And then he says, “All who take the sword will die by the sword or who live by it, will die by it,” depending on your translation. So, that’s a real key moment in the gospel in terms of one of the main moments of conflict and power meeting power. And Jesus utters that statement about the sword. John 18:36, as Jesus stood before Pilate, he’s questioned on being handed over and called King of the Jews. And he says something really enlightening about his followers. He says, “hey, my kingdom doesn’t belong to this world. If it did, if my kingdom did belong to this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over. But as it is, my kingdom isn’t from here. So, we don’t organize and grab swords and fight in this way to protect our king. Because my kingdom isn’t from this place, we do things differently.” [paraphrased] Lastly, I’ll just turn to Paul — as I’m a Pauline guy, I’ve got touch on Paul here. So, for Paul, he spends time reflecting on his past, and in a couple of places in his letters, he specifically reflects on being a violent man in his past. And then, of course, in this apocalyptic event, he meets Jesus. And what I’ve always found interesting is rather than keeping the sword but now fighting for Jesus and saying, “Oh, I was pointed in the wrong direction, but I’m turning this way and now let’s rally the troops and fight for the slain Lamb,” instead of doing that, he immediately becomes a nonviolent martyr, begins to boast in his sufferings, and he boasts in his weakness. So, he takes on the cruciformity of his leader. So, we really see that tangible shift in the testimony and in the life of Paul. So, there’s so much New Testament textual data, I think, to support the idea of peaceful, enemy love. One of the ways I’ve started asking this, when I’ve discussed it with people, is if we’re to wipe the slate clean and pretend Jesus didn’t really say or teach or do anything, what would Jesus have to do or say to communicate that we aren’t supposed to kill our enemies, if we needed to just think, “what would he need to do and say?” And I think you end up realizing he did command it, and then he demonstrated it. And then we see his followers, directly after him, doing the same thing. So, I’d say there’s a lot of reasons to find it in the New Testament. [00:13:38] Anthony: And thinking that through, Jesus often said, ‘Well, you’ve heard it’s been said, or it’s been told, and, but I tell you, the truth …” This is going to help frame what I’m going to ask you next, because for somebody that maybe takes a different posture on this topic, they’re going, okay, Jared, you got some New Testament reference. Good job. But what about all the violence in the Old Testament? Or you’ve got to teach the whole Bible, right? So, I know that is a common pushback. So, what say you about that violence? What we might label as “divine violence” of the Old Testament. [00:14:18] Jared: Yes, yes. I mean, this is a question we should be asking. It’s a very important one, and I think if we don’t notice a tension here between the message on divine violence in the Old Testament and then what we see in the New, if we don’t notice a tension here, in my view, I don’t think we’re being completely honest with ourselves. Not to say that if you don’t see a tension, you’re being dishonest. But I think when you read the New Testament, and you read the Sermon on the Mount, and you follow the life of Jesus, and then you read some of these Old Testament stories, I think you just do sense some real tension there. So, this is a question, I think, a lot of us came to. Whether it was in a course in our undergrad or in sermons in church or just reading the Bible on our own, I think many of us do come across this. So, I’ll give obviously a very short answer because this is not a 10-hour podcast. I know. I think we would lose everyone. But I mean, just to say, there’s so much here that I’m going to acknowledge from the go that my — I won’t even say “answer” — my next statements will be unsatisfactory because I taught a course in Germany on this, and it was like 15 lectures. And even then, it was just broad overviews of different views and things, so there’s really so much that could be explored here. But I’ll just say a few general things. Now, I won’t repeat all the content I went through when you had me on the podcast to talk about Hebrews but to link those two at the beginning of Hebrews and John, both of those biblical authors tell us some pretty massive things about Jesus and how to understand him. So, these authors basically say that God has spoken to us through various mediums over time, but now he speaks to us most clearly and most definitively through his son, Jesus Christ who was close to his heart and has made him known. The New Testament is pretty explicit about Jesus being the definitive self-revelation of the Father. Yes, there have been revelations. There have been words and prophecies, and these are all valuable. And they aren’t rendered null at all. However, there’s a bit of a mic drop in the Incarnation when the Father reveals himself through the Son by the Spirit. This is meant to be the ultimate revelation of himself, and so most people would say, yes and amen. But the obvious byproduct of this is that other revelations then must be deemed less definitive. If you have one that is the definitive one, then others have to be less definitive. And one way I like to say it is that Jesus is the highest resolution image of God that we have. Therefore, other images in comparison to Jesus are going to, by nature, have varying levels of blurriness to them. So, I think it’s our hermeneutical responsibility, as followers of Jesus, to then make sure that we base our notions of God in his self-revelation in Christ. So, once we have the character and heart of God now solidified in Christ, the cement has dried on “here’s what God is like,” then and only then, are we free (and I’d say safe) to begin to read other revelations of God and read the Old Testament stories once we know for sure with certainty that Jesus shows us what he’s like. Because it’s a critical piece. We can’t then read Jesus, read the Sermon on the Mount, read the cross, read these letters, and then doubt that because of what we read in Genesis or Exodus or Leviticus and say, “Sure, Jesus commands this, but Exodus says this and this.” There is a necessary order in terms of interpretation, and Jesus shows us that. It doesn’t cancel out the other revelations at all, but it does set the record straight of what to do when there appear to be opposing ideas. There is a hermeneutical order and a method to it. [00:19:18] Anthony: Well said. [00:19:19] Jared: Yeah, so. I won’t get very specific, but when it comes to Old Testament divine violence, there are some really great interpretive theories out there. I haven’t developed any original ones of my own. I’m just eating off of everyone else’s table. But we can go back to Origen, if we want the church father and in light of the revelation of Christ, he reads some of the extreme violence in the Old Testament, and he reads those as allegory. He says, “Now that I’ve seen Jesus, I read Joshua.” And he spiritualizes the stories to draw principles for the Christian life now. And he wasn’t really concerned with, Oh, no, but does that mean this happened exactly this way? The historicity questions are more of a modern thing. And he was just more focused on, all right, well, Jesus has shown us this; so, how can I still read this scripture and get value from stories where there’s intense violence? There are other contemporary views and readings I can think of one like Greg Boyd. He sees these stories as cruciform images where he points to the cross and says, hey, on the cross, God was willing to take on our ugliness. And he was willing to appear as a criminal for our sakes. And this wasn’t just a onetime moment. This was what God has always been willing to do, and he has always done. So, he’s been willing to take on our ugliness through stories throughout history, to look criminal, to look violent, to look these ways to accommodate and to love and to be with us in this journey. [paraphrased] So, there’s Boyd, which many people don’t like that. Many people do like it, but it’s just an example that there are lots of views on how to best understand the Old Testament. But the key is the guiding principle, which is you need to keep your feet firmly planted on what on God’s self-revelation in Christ And from that point, if you have question marks, you don’t place them on stories of Jesus. If you have question marks, you place them in the other stories, because we have certainty about what God is like through his self-revelation in Christ. [00:21:49] Anthony: I’m just curious, and I know this is off the hand, but if people were looking for resources, books to read that further their study on how to rightly interpret hermeneutically the Old Testament in light of Jesus, do you have any? One or two recommendations, Jared, that people could dive into. [00:22:12] Jared: Yeah. Let me think. So, one of the things I’ve done in a course was I pit two different contemporary views on Old Testament violence against each other. And these guys have talked on a podcast before, and they’ve had some great discussions. And it’s all friendly. And I have [the students] read these two opposing views, and that’s a great mental exercise, I think. So, the Boyd one I referenced. There’s either the big two-volume version, if you’re really committed. It’s called Crucifixion of the Warrior God . And again, that’s two volumes. It’s quite a big read. He has then come out with a popular level book, I think called Cross Vision, again by Greg Boyd, that I think is a nutshell of the two-volume book. But on the other side of things, someone who is skeptical of Boyd’s view but is also a serious biblical scholar, is a book by Matthew Lynch called Flood and Fury. And he tries to reread the most violent pieces, which is the flood and then, some of the pieces from the Canaanite genocide, and then says, how do we read these in light of what we know to be true about a loving God? So, those are two books that I think could be useful if you wanted to have a bit of a spectrum there. [00:23:50] Anthony: Yeah, that’s excellent. Thank you for that. We’ll put those two works or three works, if you will, including the double set in the show notes. And I want to go back. You mentioned you’re a Pauline guy. So, let’s go back to Paul for a moment. What would you say about a pericope like Romans 13:1-7? And if you’ll accommodate me for just a moment. I want to read it, so our listeners have the context of what it says. It says, Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. 2 So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished. 3 For the authorities do not strike fear in people who are doing right, but in those who are doing wrong. Would you like to live without fear of the authorities? Do what is right, and they will honor you. 4 The authorities are God’s servants, sent for your good. But if you are doing wrong, of course you should be afraid, for they have the power to punish you. They are God’s servants, sent for the very purpose of punishing those who do what is wrong. 5 So you must submit to them, not only to avoid punishment, but also to keep a clear conscience. 6 Pay your taxes, too, for these same reasons. For government workers need to be paid. They are serving God in what they do. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: Pay your taxes and government fees to those who collect them, and give respect and honor to those who are in authority. In light of that, what would you say about this passage? [00:25:21] Jared: Well, I wish Paul hadn’t written that last bit about taxes. [00:25:28] Anthony: That’s one we get all agreement on. Well done. Universal agreement from the audience. [00:25:33] Jared: Yeah. No, I’m really glad you’ve raised this text because if there is a text that is most commonly used for just war theory in the New Testament, it’s this one. And “just war theory” is, in short, people setting up a set of criteria for what makes war just. And the idea is that war obviously isn’t good inherently, and it shouldn’t happen; there are certain things that ultimately would make it the just choice. So, this is a text that’s used quite commonly for that one. This text has been used by nations across the world for years and years. It’s an interesting fact that both the Nazis and the Allies used Romans 13 to get their nation’s support for the war. Now some of the issues with people citing Romans 13:1–7, as an argument for why national war violence is justified is that they don’t read in Romans the eight preceding verses. So, Romans 12:14–21, Paul says starting in verse 14: 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 On the contrary: “If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” And the final verse before you get to chapter 13 is 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. And it’s not funny, but there is some irony that when this pericope is cited there. No one’s ever going to cite the seven verses prior because it doesn’t tend to strengthen your argument for national violence, but even though it is a … [00:28:23] Anthony: It is a letter with continuous thought, right? Paul doesn’t just stop at a chapter heading to rethink it. No, it’s a continuous thought [00:28:33] Jared: Exactly and so, the thought would be that in chapter 12 in 14–21, he tells the church, he tells kingdom people how they’re supposed to respond to enemies. So, bless your persecutors, live in harmony with people, do not repay anyone evil for evil. Live peaceably with all, never avenge yourself, feed your enemies if they’re hungry. Give your enemies something to drink if they’re thirsty; do not respond to evil with evil but overcome it with good. This is how the community of Jesus overcomes evil. It’s with good. And then when you get into chapter 13, it’s all right, the state will overcome evil with the sword. Now there are a couple of words to draw out here. Paul uses the Greek word tasso which is often translated as established, ordained, or instituted. Right. So, it says there’s no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been “tassoed” by God. They’ve been put in place. And you can almost imagine with that word, world leaders standing before God and God lays his sword on their shoulder and appoints them. But this raises issues. I won’t even start listing infamous world leaders of the past who we don’t like to imagine God appointing or putting in place. But some have helpfully pointed out that this term can have the connotation of filing something, like books. So, the view here would be that God isn’t creating governments to be violent; it’s more so that he finds them to be violent. Governments are going to do what governments are going to do. But Paul is saying, God is at work in these governments as best he can to bring about order and to help curb sin, et cetera. So, God isn’t using the sword, but as this is something that governments will use. It may be that God will steer it in the direction of justice at times. So, in the same way, God delivered his Son (and he was in the Son) the Son was delivered over to the powers of darkness and baited death in the grave into swallowing Jesus and being destroyed from the inside out, God is still working to bring about good from evil in the world. So, evil will continue to do its thing. Nations will continue to use the sword. I mean, they must in a world like this. So, God’s going to organize things for the best good to come out of evil. So, that’s, I think, a key word there, tasso . And if I could maybe just unpack one more word. “Let every person be — and it’s hupotasso , which is to be subject to the governing authorities — for there was no authority except from God.” And the idea when people read this word, “let everyone be subject” is like, hey, if my government says you’ve got to go do this, well, Paul tells me in Romans 13, I must be subject to them. So, there’s this idea of absolute obedience there. The trick is there are many Greek words out there that Paul has for obedience. And he doesn’t use them here. Something that a good friend of mine — he’s a political theologian, Stephen Backhouse, he says about Romans 13. He wrote an article on it in conversation with J.H. Yoder and others, he says, “Paul’s command is not for Christians to obey but to humbly submit to the authorities. The one who refuses to fight for Caesar but who still allows Caesar to punish him has been disobedient but has remained subordinate.” So, rather than obeying every whim of an evil empire, submission means that Christians will be at odds with their nation, but they can peaceably accept persecution there. This is a way of them not revolting and fighting back. But we mirror the path of Christ and his response to Rome. [00:33:16] Anthony: As I’m listening to you, Jared — and by the way, just the generosity of which you speak is appealing to me. And I’m wishing it was a 10-hour podcast so we could go further because it feels like we’re just barely scratching the itch and there’s so much more to get to. But that’s well said. And as we’ve already alluded to, the label Christian pacifism, a nonviolent ethic, those can be fighting words (pun intended) for Christians. So, I’m curious, what would you say to Christ followers who are currently in the military or police, where violent acts can not only be a way of life, or the potential of violence be right around the corner? To those who love God but are actively serving in these capacities? What would you say to them? [00:34:15] Jared: Yeah, great question, Anthony. To begin, I wouldn’t ever want to issue a statement in broad generalities. Here’s what I’ll say to every soldier and every police officer because everyone’s story and everyone’s journey and everyone’s intentions and everyone’s process is very unique. There just simply are corrupt people who do great evils in the military and the police force. And then there are kind-hearted, lovely, merciful peacemakers who are followers of Jesus in the military and the police force. And that’s just a fact. I do know of people in the force who are on the journey. And I’ve had some lovely interactions online with a few of them. Just honestly, some people who’ve really impacted me with anecdotes they’ve sent me of being on the force but dabbling in this idea of Christian pacifism and loving their enemies. They’ve been so kind to let me into their process. They’ve been exploring what it looks like to follow the way of Christ and serve in these capacities. And they’ve fed me a couple of cruciform anecdotes of how they can, creatively de-escalate situations, stopping violence from occurring and things like that. And again, my view would just be that wherever someone is, whether they’re considering military or police, or whether they’re already in it or whether on the outside of it, I just think we need to be looking at Jesus and trying to be more like him. So, always moving in that direction and just going, whatever line of work I’m in — I mean, goodness, if you’re someone who rejects violence, but you’re working for a corporation that’s destroying the planet? Few people can point fingers at others because of the issues in the world and systemic sin and we’re all interconnected in the various fields, in the ways we consume things and harm others around the world that we don’t even know. So just to say, I think all of us just have the responsibility to try and take steps to move closer and closer to the way of Christ. And if that means constantly, creatively looking for ways to reduce violence, then I tip my hat and say, well done; that’s great. So, I think that’s the general approach I would take to people. [00:37:05] Anthony: Yeah. That’s well said. And it made me think of a statement I read from Martin Luther King, and this was a while back, so I’m just going to loosely paraphrase it, but he talked about how there is the external physical violence. And we want to as much as possible avoid that, but there’s also the internal violence of the spirit So, we can refuse to shoot a man, but are we refusing to hate that man? And just like you alluded to, whether it’s corporations doing harm and violence to the planets or other ways in which violence is perpetrated, this is where we all have to check ourselves internally. What are we about and how far does this ethic take us to look at what’s going on within us? So, I’m curious, and I’m sure you get asked this a lot with the fact that you’re public about promoting Christian pacifism or a nonviolent God. Are there any circumstances that could arise where physical violence, in your mind, is justified and necessary? [00:38:13] Jared: Again, a good question. And yeah, it is a pretty common one because it’s valid and it’s fair. I think there’s a distinction I would want to make here. There’s an important difference between the question, when would I, Jared Neusch, be violent? And then, where do I get biblical justification from Jesus to kill my enemies? To the latter, I haven’t found any yet. So, I don’t have a situation that I could outline and say, from following Jesus and looking at his life, I feel confident killing my enemy in situation X. But when we talk about me, what I would do. I think I don’t know that I would always have the courage to choose enemy love. I hope that I would, but I don’t know that I would. And I think that the situation people like to bring in — not out of any sort of bad place but understandably — they say, “You’ve got kids, and you’ve got a wife,” and things like that. And how and when would you be violent? And I think it’s a great question. And no one knows unless you’re in a tough part of the world where you do know what you’ll do in tough situations. But I think it’s important to remember that violence is not — how do I word this? It’s not a predictable, sure thing. Let’s just say, oh, to protect person X, that’s when I would choose to be violent. Violence inherently spirals, and it builds, and it often leads to more violence. So, choosing violence is not the backstop safe choice to protect the people you love or something like that. Often violence begets violence. It’s not a sure thing. So, I don’t have that as a, okay, this is the cheat code that I would use in situation X. To me, it’s as much, if not more, of a risk than loving your enemy. So, that would be a bit of an answer to that good question. [00:40:53] Anthony: I think where we can settle is war is not the answer. [00:40:58] Jared: Yeah. [00:40:59] Anthony: It’s just not. I was recently watching a Ken Burns documentary on the Civil War here in the United States, and one on the Holocaust and — not exactly uplifting things to watch. But it just struck me again. It’s not like it was the first time, but it was just a powerful reminder. It’s not the answer. And I know that people are in very violent places. And I think what you just said is a humble way of communicating it. We just don’t know what we would do in a circumstance. And if we’re facing it as a reality, we’re just thankful that the kingdom of God does not look like that. And it is the right side up kingdom, and the empires of this world stand in stark contrast to that. And I pray for people that are living in, with violence being a way of life. I just can’t imagine. So, let’s get practical here, Jared, how does someone live out a nonviolent ethic as a follower of Jesus in the day to day? Like what does that look like to really, truly embrace this? [00:42:16] Jared: Yeah. I do think about this, and I take this quite seriously that I am, just as you’ve alluded to, I’m public with this. And I am teaching this very radical message of Jesus, at least as I see it as his message. And yet in that, I’m not someone who faces the risk of violence on a daily basis; it’s not lost on me that I’m in a comfortable position taking this view. So, that’s why I don’t communicate these principles to or at people in these tough violent situations. So, while I wouldn’t get online and post from the comfort of my home in cozy West Sussex that Ukraine shouldn’t defend themselves, and they should follow the way of Jesus. You’ll never see something like that from me, and I don’t think you should from anyone. What I would do, and I do, is I criticize and hold to account the global superpower that I was born in. And should we be arming World leader X with more weapons? No. Should we be exercising capital punishment? No. Should we be arming our citizens with more and more guns to be safe against more and more guns? No, I don’t think so. So, that tends to be where I point most of my energy is systems and people who are the oppressor and who are perpetuating violence rather than telling people on the receiving end, “You need to take up your cross and be more peaceful.” You never want to be in that spot. So, I think living this out for me, one of the ways is speaking truth to major perpetuators of systems of violence in the world who also, and this is critical, who also claim to follow the way of Christ, saying, “We are Christians.” And then pushing forward war and supplying weapons and things like that. That’s a big problem. So, I really feel like that’s something I need to speak out against. And then second, you mentioned practically. I think we just move more and more towards the ways of peacemaking and enemy love any time we can love people that are difficult to love. So, that is the smallest things. It can be buying a coffee for someone who’s having really bad temper in a store, or it can be just absolutely anything. It doesn’t have to be that violence is involved, but what we’re trying to form in our heart is a love for all people and a love — it’s very easy to love your friends. Jesus tells us this. He says, I’m not impressed by that; even the tax collector and scribes, they do that. No big deal. What matters is, can you love your enemies? That’s what sets us apart. Everyone can love their clique, their in group, their crowd. That’s no big deal. But what we want to be constantly trying to form in our heart is a love for all people, a love for our enemy. So, to me, it’s just looking for moments, whether it’s just internal or external, and you can practically do something trying to move towards love of these people. Because it’s, it’s all the same currency when you’re loving someone. Some moments are pocket change of that currency, and you’re just doing something small. But in some moments, for some people, it may be paying in large bills, enemy love, and it’s costing your life or your job or something like that. But I think just looking for moments, whether it’s with our words, our money, our actions to love those that are difficult to love, those who we don’t want to. So, that’s probably the most practical thing to try and foster on a day-to-day basis. [00:46:46] Anthony: Jared, I live in Durham, North Carolina and Duke Divinity School is in my backyard. And we recently lost Richard Hays, a great New Testament scholar. And I think I saw that you posted recently after his death that he was quite influential in your thought process about this subject. Is there a resource you could refer our audience to from Richard that might be beneficial to the reading? [00:47:14] Jared: Oh, I’m so glad you asked. Yes. I don’t know if you can hear it in the audio, but I’m smiling as soon as you brought him up because wow, he is such an important figure. And it really made me sad to hear of his passing. But there is a book that, if anyone doesn’t just like the Facebook comment thread debates on violence, but actually is in it for serious critical thinking discussions on Scripture, the way of Jesus and ethics, and wants to investigate: is this a message of the New Testament? Is this a part of following Christ? There’s no book I can recommend more than Richard’s Hays book, The Moral Vision of the New Testament . I will warn listeners that on the spectrum of ultra popular level to really unapproachable academic work, it leans slightly more towards the academic side. So, you really want to have your thinking cap on, and you want to be ready for some scholarly rigor. But he really goes through and shows you the moral vision of the New Testament and spoiler alert: it’s not violent. That’s not the only thing he uncovers, but it’s one of the main ones, and I found it to be a really helpful book. [00:48:56] Anthony: Yeah, I have friends that studied under Richard Hays, and they just have such admiration, devotion, and his rigorous process of biblical scholarship is something they hold in high regard, so I think that’s going to be an excellent reference. And one of the things I appreciate about you, Jared, as a New Testament scholar, you also tend to have a way of speaking that’s accessible to people and I think that’s really important. So, if someone’s listening to this podcast and thinks, man I really would like to dialogue a little bit more and maybe talk with Jared about this, would you be okay providing a way to get in contact with you, Jared? [00:49:38] Jared: Yeah, of course. Probably one of the easiest ways is the way of social media right now. So, you can find me on Instagram just at Jared Neusch. And I try not to be on there too often because I want to have decent mental health. But it is a platform where people are talking and listening, so I do try and communicate on there at times. So, that is one place you can find me, but also if you just Google me, you’ll see where I work, and I think it provides my work email as well. If you want to reach out like that, that’s totally fine. But I’m always up for good hearted conversation on this topic, I think it’s really important. [00:50:34] Anthony: And for those of you that may not see his name in front of you, Jared’s first name is spelled J A R E D (D as in David), and his last name is spelled N (as in Nancy) E U S C H. And as he mentioned, you can find him on Insta or just Google his name. And listeners, I wanted to leave you with food for thought from Charles Spurgeon, the great English preacher who said: The Church of Christ is continually represented under the figure of an army; yet its Captain is the Prince of Peace; its object is the establishment of peace, and its soldiers are men of a peaceful disposition. The spirit of war is at the extremely opposite point to the spirit of the gospel. Jared, I’m so grateful for you. Thank you for coming back. And I also want to thank our team of people who make this podcast possible, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. It’s so great to have a wonderful team of people to do this with. Jared, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, sir. And it’s our custom to end with prayer. So, if you’re willing Jared, would you please pray for us? [00:51:47] Jared: Sure. Well, first of all, thank you. It’s such a treat to be here and to have this conversation with you. But yeah, let me pray. Jesus, thank you for this time to discuss the ways of how we overcome evil; how do we treat our enemies; what does it look like to follow the way of Jesus. I thank you for this crew that is doing this podcast for Anthony and the team and for all the good they’re doing. And I just pray for the team, myself, but also all the listeners just that your Spirit would continue to speak to us, to lead us, and ultimately form us into more mature disciples of you. That’s the ultimate goal is to be formed by you, to look like you, and to follow you. So, I just ask this, and I thank you for this time. In your name, Amen. [00:52:41] Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you! The post Gospel Reverb Bonus Episode—Jared Neusch first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources .…

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Chris Blumhofer—Year C Easter 3-6 58:00

11 weeks ago58:00

58:00

Chris Blumhofer—Year C Easter 3-6 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the One who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode . Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb . Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Christopher Blumhofer. Chris is an associate professor of New Testament at Fuller Theological Seminary and prior to entering academia, Chris worked for three years with Christianity Today’s leadership media group. He has written extensively for general audiences and wrote the publication, the Gospel of John and the Future of Israel . He’s an ordained ruling elder in the Presbyterian Church, USA, and a member of the Society of Biblical Literature. Chris earned a PhD from Duke University from right here in beautiful Durham, North Carolina. Chris, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on the pod, we’d like to get to know you a little bit, your story, your backstory, and how you’re participating with the Lord these days. [00:01:40] Chris: Thank you, Anthony. It’s great to be with you and really, an honor for me to be invited on this podcast and to speak with you and to open scripture with you. So, thanks for capturing a lot of my story there. I think what you left out of that story is the parts of my home life with my wife and our two young daughters here. So, when I’m not in teaching mode or in church mode, I am at soccer practices and cello practices and living the life of trying to be faithful to a life of fatherhood and the home life that God has given me here in Durham also. So, that’s a little bit about me there. You captured my role. I teach at Fuller Seminary. I teach New Testament. And Fuller’s, on the map of seminaries, Fuller’s kind of a big seminary, which means we teach a lot of Intro to New Testament. Everyone in every program across the school of theology and in our school of psychology has to take Intro to New Testament class. So, I do a lot of that. I’m doing that right now this quarter. And I love it. I love introducing people to the Bible and a lot of people who are Christians who are coming to know the New Testament again. 15, 20, 30 years into their life of faith, they’re reading the New Testament again, in some ways reading it for the first time with new eyes. So, that’s a joy that I get in my vocation. Locally, I serve pretty actively in our church. I have this role as what’s called a parish associate, which is a role that Presbyterians made up to get ordained folk who don’t serve regularly in a local church to be authorized to do so. So, I get to lead a monthly prayer service and preach there. And I’m really delighted to balance this world of the academy and the church. I think where possible, it’s important for folks who do biblical scholarship to be deeply plugged into the life of the church too and keep those worlds as close as possible. [00:03:43] Anthony: As you teach the Intro to New Testament [course], I’m not sure the book of Revelation is right at the forefront at the start, but that’s where we’re going to be parked this month. And we know with the book of Revelation, Jesus Christ is the Revelator. and the apostle John is our guide through that revelation. And as I understand it, you’ve done extensive research on the person, the apostle John. So, my question is this, what can you share about John to help preachers and teachers contextualize these Revelation texts we’re going to look at this month? [00:04:15] Chris: Yeah, that’s a great question. So, most people in my intro classes are nervous about the book of Revelation, either because they’ve read it a long time ago, and find it intimidating, or because they’ve heard it referred to in a lot of ways that make it seem like just a thing they don’t want to touch. But I think it is helpful to draw it close to the rest of the New Testament like your question does. So, in church tradition, the authorship of the Gospel of John and the book of Revelation are often seen together, where John the apostle is the direct author of both of those texts. And I think that does capture a lot that we need to see about Revelation and the gospel of John. Because, actually, it’s in the way of reading these books that the church gives us, we especially see emphasized that they give us a new perspective on Jesus, a new perspective on ourselves. In Christian iconography, the image associated with John the apostle is the eagle, because the eagle flies so high over the earth and looks down and gives you this new perspective and sees things that you can’t see from the ground. And I think that really captures both this uniqueness of the Gospel of John and also the unique vision of Jesus and the church and the world that we meet in the book of Revelation. In terms of the kind of history behind that interpretation and those ways of understanding Revelation, the church tradition puts the Gospel of John and the writer of John probably starting around Israel Palestine, but eventually moving to the city of Ephesus, which is in modern day Turkey, kind of on the west coast of Turkey today. And which was a major city in the ancient world, huge population, very important, very wealthy center of trade. And a strong, a very important political city in the ancient world. Later church tradition puts two important early Christians in that city also. The first is Justin Martyr. We call him Justin Martyr because he died at Rome. But in his early life he was in Ephesus. And also in the second century, a bishop called Irenaeus. We usually title him Irenaeus of Lyon because in his adult life, he served the church in what is now France. But he also started his life in that same part of Asia Minor, a city called Smyrna. Both of those writers in the second century attribute the book of Revelation to the apostle John. And so that gives a little extra weight to the theological insight that these books are similar by connecting them at the level of that historical authorship too. So, like everything in biblical study, there’s great debate about this. And the authors never claim to be the same people, but I think they’re associated in church tradition because of this commonality of location, and most importantly, because of this perspective just refreshes everything you thought you know about yourself. [00:07:39] Anthony: Yes. [00:07:40] Chris: And about God and about Jesus. And that’s really what these two texts have in common. [00:07:43] Anthony: Yeah, that’s really helpful because I have born witness to an interpretation and hermeneutic of Revelation that seems to get askew from the apostle that we read in the book of John. [00:07:48] Chris: Yeah. [00:07:49] Anthony: And if they are truly the same person, that does highlight the continuity to make the center the center, who is Jesus the Christ, on the throne, being worshiped. And we’re going to see that in the text we’re looking at this month. So, thank you for that background. Let’s do this. Let’s dive into the lectionary text we’ll be discussing. Our first one of the month is Revelation 5:11–14. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the updated edition. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the third Sunday in Easter, May 4. Then I looked and I heard the voice of many angels surrounding the throne and the living creatures and the elders; they numbered myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, singing with full voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea and all that is in them, singing, “To the one seated on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the elders fell down and worshiped. Chris, I’m curious. What would you suggest is the significance of the slaughtered Lamb being on the throne — the imagery of that? We know he’s the roaring Lion. We know he’s the glorious King, slaughtered. But in Revelation he’s shown to us as a slaughtered Lamb. What should we take away from that? [00:09:35] Chris: This is really everything for John. He uses this title a lot in the book of Revelation. The description of Jesus as the Lamb occurs twenty-eight times. That’s not a coincidence. John loves numbers, and twenty-eight, as most of us will remember from school, is seven times four. These are both numbers of completion, perfection. So, we’re seeing in this passage for the first time in the book of Revelation, this designation of Jesus that fits him perfectly for John. And we’re not ready for this. It’s really a bait and switch. To understand the full whiplash of the scene, we have to go up to the beginning of the chapter where John is seeing this scroll and there’s no one able to open it, and to read the story and let it move forward. And this angel is there holding it. He’s weeping because he can’t see it opened. And an elder encourages John and says, “Do not weep. See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.” And then he, John looks, and he sees a Lamb. Revelation is out to surprise us here. The One who overcomes all the evil and all the destruction in the world, the One who breaks all the cycles of sin, has done it, through being faithful to the point of death. And he wants us to imagine the conquering strength of a lion, but to picture, to see, that conquering through faithfulness, purity, holiness in Jesus, the Lamb that was slain. So here are the strength and the glory of God are revealed in the crucified Jesus. And if you want to know real strength in Revelation, you don’t see real strength until you see love that is strong enough to die for its enemies, to be faithful to the point of death. That’s what strength conquering looks like in Revelation. So, this Lamb title is one of the key ones for John. It’s not just a title he pulls out of a grab bag of titles for Jesus. Unless Jesus is the Lamb of God, then the whole message of this book unravels because this book is written especially to suffering Christians, people who could, may struggle to do so, but their lives resembled people who were led, as the psalm says, like sheep to the slaughter. They knew that feeling and so to associate them with Jesus, the One who was slain, but has been raised by the Father, that is a crucial way of understanding who God is and also understanding themselves. [00:12:23] Anthony: And it stands in such stark contrast to the empires of this world and triumphalism. We want the Lion, right, to conquer our foes. And yet God comes to us as a Lamb cruciform, laying down his life, which is opposed. That’s why the Kingdom of God is such an alternative form of living, right? And I’m reminded of what Richard Hayes once wrote, that the church community is called to embody that alternative order that stands as a sign of God’s redemptive purposes in the world. And it looks like a Lamb, slaughtered. I’m curious, Chris. For me, when I come to a text like this — it’s just so glorious, so filled with song and worship. How do you capture that in a homily, in a sermon to a congregation? But I’m going to ask you to do that. How would you herald this good news to the congregation? [00:13:17] Chris: Especially because Revelation is so rich in imagery, it’s so full of songs and poems, I think it’s important to think about engaging this passage in the context of a whole worship service. So, I will answer your question about preaching, but I would just encourage, there are so many hymns and praise songs that draw on the text of this, the text of this book. Yes, there are so many prayers that are written in this book that we can pray again and learn to pray. So, I would really try to immerse the entire service in Revelation. Because at the end of the day, what John’s after is, he wants to shift our perspective on the world, give us a new orientation to it, and we can do some of that work discursively, in a sermon. God’s given us art and poetry and song, and Revelation is even using that, and it’s not a coincidence. But the way that God will grab and renew our imagination, will include all of those different media, [00:14:21] Anthony: and I would say, as you mentioned previously, iconography as well, as a way to visualize what’s being pictured here. [00:14:28] Chris: Yes. Yes. Some, I have heard some say, that this is the most visual book in the Bible. It’s full of images, and I think that’s right. And so, to let some art engage our interpretation is entirely fitting, for Revelation especially. But let me dive into the sermon portion of a worship service here. So, if I was preaching this text, I’d do a couple things as I was approaching it. I would really want to set it in the context of the problem that it’s responding to. So, this praise of the Lamb, “worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered” — actually responding to the question that John asked up in verses two and three, “who is worthy to open the scroll and break its seals”, or rather that’s what the angel asked. And John is weeping because no one steps forward to do this. And what that’s responding to in the text, this moment in the text, is this challenge. What if we are stuck in the endless cycle of violence, destruction, futility that we are in? What if we’re stuck there? And that’s what verses two and three of this chapter put before us. When the Lamb steps forward, when the Lamb is found worthy, that is good news for all sorts of reasons. But in the plot of this chapter, it’s because the Lamb is the One who will move the story forward. God is not going to give up on this world. As broken and as full of suffering as it is, it is not outside of the reach of God. And it is the Lamb, the One who gave his life for the world, who is worthy to move the story forward into a new chapter. So, it’s not as if Revelation happens, the whole drama of Revelation happens, because God finally runs out of patience and now his anger is let loose on the world or something like that here. The One who moves the story forward is the One who is totally defined by his love for what he made — his perfect love, his jealous love. But it is the life of the Lamb of God that moves history forward in Revelation. That’s what this scene puts before us. If I was going to preach about that, I would want to linger on what we are waiting for and what it is that will move the story of this world, the story of our lives forward. Because I think John is giving us a deeply encouraging word, but we have to be in touch with how stuck we are in order to do that. We’re taking for granted here that people may have in their ear the situation of the churches that we’ve already read about in Revelation two and three. These are churches that, they’re in all sorts of situations, but what they have in common is a need to hold fast to Jesus at this time. Some are suffering, some are being persecuted and died. Some are wealthy and complacent. They’re all being called back to Jesus, to this fresh understanding of who he is and recommitment to him for the unique struggle of following him in their situation. I think the third thing I’d want to hit on if I was opening up this passage for a congregation is, I would want to talk about the “all-ness” of this passage, the comprehensive scope of what Jesus offers every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them. Sing praise. This is good news to everyone and there is no other story of the world, for the world, than this one here. If I might say one more thing, Anthony. [00:18:43] Anthony: Sure. [00:18:44] Chris: I wouldn’t want to let go of what we talked about in that first question about the importance of the Lamb being the image we’ve seen there. I once heard a music album, a jazz album, reviewed. And the reviewer, he had this perfect line. He said that the musician — he plays the wrong note, but he puts it in the right place. And I feel like it’s important to let John play the wrong note, shock us with the image of the Lamb in the exact perfect place, in the midst of our longing, in the midst, when we’re wondering who will move the story of our lives forward. Are we one scientific discovery from getting over cancer or are we one administration away from being able to solve our political problems? It’s not going to be cleverness or our strengths that save us. It is going to be the Lamb. And John puts what might feel emotionally to us like the wrong note here by putting the slain Lamb at the center of this image. But he puts it in exactly the right place. And I think that’s what Revelation calls us to understand and to trust. [00:19:47] Anthony: Well said, Chris. And, as I’m looking over this text, and you mentioned this, all creatures are singing with full voice. So, would you like to sing one of those hymns you mentioned before? Could this be a world presentation of Chris Blumhofer singing a song on this podcast? [00:20:07] Chris: No. I don’t think so. We’re going to pass on it. I don’t have one that comes immediately to mind, so I’m going to pass on that. Thank you. [00:20:09] Anthony: Okay. Fair enough. Let me ask you this, just one last follow up question. It, Revelation, has been often misunderstood. If you could encapsulate what John is really trying to accomplish in a sentence or two through this Revelation, what would it be? [00:20:25] Chris: It is that Jesus is much closer than we think. And that he is completely engaged in the history and story of this world in our lives. I see the book of Revelation structured in a series of sort of waves. The first wave is chapters one through three where Jesus comes to the church. He’s right there walking amid the church, speaking to the churches. And this passage we’re in now in chapter 4–11 is this second wave of Jesus coming to the world. Moving history forward with this scroll, with the scroll that is being opened. In the final wave, Jesus comes against the great enemy Satan, who’s manifest in the world, but is actually a spiritual power behind it. But in each of these movements of the text, Jesus is much closer and much more engaged than it might feel like he is if you are on the ground suffering. And so, John is opening up our eyes. Or as I sometimes say, when I teach this class, he’s giving us this pair of glasses that we can put on and all of a sudden, we can see the world in full color, and it is much more colorful than we imagined beforehand. Yes. [00:21:37] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. And that leads me to believe, Chris, that in its final summation, Revelation is good news, because at the center of it is the Lamb. And so, if you hear anyone with a hermeneutic that leads you to believe that Revelation is bad news, look again. Put on those glasses Chris mentioned and see the color that is before us and the person of Jesus Christ. Alright, let’s transition to our next text. It is Revelation 7:9–17. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday in Easter, which is May 11. Chris, would you read it for us please? [00:22:20] Chris: Yes. Happy to do it. After this, I looked, and there was a great multitude that no one could count from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, robed in white, with palm branches in their hands. They cried out in a loud voice saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne and to the Lamb.” And all the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, singing, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.” Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, robed in white, and where have they come from? I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.” Then he said to me, “These are they who have come out of the great ordeal; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason, they are before the throne of God and worship him day and night within his temple, and the one who is seated on the throne will shelter them. They will hunger no more and thirst no more. The sun will not strike them, nor any scorching heat, for the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd. And he will guide them to springs of the water of life, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. [00:23:22] Anthony: There’s a lot going on in this text, and so we would really appreciate your exegetical overview of what you’re seeing in this text. [00:23:30] Chris: Sure. Whenever a passage starts with the words after this, my reflex is to scroll up the page a little bit. [00:23:37] Anthony: Sure. [00:23:38] Chris: So, we have to see its context as always. And again, this can be intimidating in Revelation because you get this kind of nice, clear, encouraging scenes, and you get worried that if you go one paragraph up or down, you’re just going to be in the deep end all of a sudden. But it is worth it. So, where we are is in chapter 7. We’re in this interlude. We’re still in the opening of the seals, but we’re in this interlude with the seals. And history is unfolding as the seals are broken, and as each seal is broken, the suffering on the earth has increased across chapter 6. And here at chapter 7, we are on the cusp of the seventh seal being opened now. In fact, chapter 6 ends with the most powerful people on earth crying out to the rocks and saying, “Fall on us, and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” So, this is the expectation coming into chapter 7, and we might justly expect that we’re about to hear about the worst suffering of all. But what we get at the beginning of chapter 7 is this pause in the action while the angel puts a seal on the forehead of the servants of God, and in the paragraph right before this, 144,000 people are sealed from Israel. That’s symbolic of the fullness of the people of God. And then our vision begins. And the question, who can stand in the face of God’s judgment, is answered here. That was a question at the end of chapter 6. Who can stand? There’s a great multitude that no one could count, from all these tribes, peoples, languages, and nations standing before the throne. That’s the answer to the question. Who can stand? This multitude is able to stand before the throne in worship. The God who judges is also the God who heals. And in this scene, we’re seeing that the nations are indeed coming to him and can stand in his presence. It’s interesting that this is something that the most powerful people on earth — it’s unintelligible to them. They’re unaware of it. But John can see it because he can recognize something else with those glasses on. They cry out with this verse that has become a great praise song, “Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne and unto the Lamb.” And everyone sings back in response to them. And then John asks about the identity of these people. So, I want to ask a couple of questions about the details here. I always think that texts get more interesting when we ask about their details, so they’ve all come out of this great ordeal. That’s an interesting phrase. We actually hear about the great ordeal or a great tribulation in the book of Daniel. We hear about it also at the little apocalypse in the Gospel of Matthew 24. And the idea is that there will be a period of great upheaval, of war, of scarcity, a great increase in immorality and injustice right at the time where the age is about to be redeemed by God. That’s what John hears, that the people who stand before him are those who have come through the great tribulation. Actually, that’s a very similar phrase to how Jesus speaks about it in Matthew 24. You’re looking at the people who have come through this tribulation and they’ve come through the ordeal by washing their clothes white in the blood of the Lamb. There’s so much here. First, this is an image of faithful witness and identification with Jesus. These are the ones who have washed their life in the blood of Jesus. And that could mean that they’re the ones who have come through the tribulation, because they’ve been killed for their faithful witness — kind of dying in faithfulness and in continuity with Jesus’ own faithful life. Or that they have identified with him, not necessarily dying, but they have managed to persevere because of their faith and the example of Jesus. Either way, these are Jesus’ people. They belong to him completely. In Genesis 49, we get this great picture of the lion of the tribe of Judah, or Judah as a lion, and it says that he will wash his robe in the blood of grapes. And John takes that image from Genesis here. He twists it a little bit, and here the people of the Lamb wash in his blood, but instead of being stained, they’re purified by that blood. Blood is a purifying agent in the book of Revelation here, which is really a fascinating rethinking of that imagery here. And as John continues to tell us about these people, we see, he sums up for us their life before God. Because they’ve identified themselves with Jesus, they live fearlessly in the presence of God and before the throne of God. It’s not a throne of judgment for them. It’s a comforting place. They have that seal on their forehead. Now, later in Revelation, the beast will put a seal on the foreheads of the people who serve him. It’ll be a kind of condition for membership to have the seal of the beast. But here God gives his own seal, and it is not one that is exclusive or punishing but is one that is protective. They live in this existence defined by God’s mercy — endless light, no hunger or thirst, no deprivation here. And where God is wiping away the tears from their eyes. Beautifully, strangely, the Lamb is their shepherd here. John is pulling on all these images to renew our imaginations about the fullness and the peacefulness of their life before him. So, I’d want to open up a lot of these things. Maybe I’d also add the whole thing is suffused with a sense of victory. It’s celebration. [00:30:56] Anthony: Yes. [00:30:57] Chris: They’re dressed in white. They’re holding palm branches, which were pretty common symbol of victory in the ancient world, in both in Judaism and also in the broader Greco-Roman world. And they’re not hailing Caesar as their victor here. They’re hailing the Lamb, but there’s this sense of celebration. It’s like Palm Sunday, part two, where everyone has gone through the tribulation and has been brought to this celebration. [00:31:14] Anthony: You mentioned it earlier that John brings us to a few twists in Revelation. He helps us to reimagine what is. And I find verse 17 interesting because of the inversion that we see that the Lamb is actually the shepherd, and it’s usually the other way around. Can you tell us a little bit more about this? [00:31:35] Chris: It’s an amazing picture, that the One who has gone before us and come out the other side, the One who has conquered death and overcome judgment, he’s now our leader. And it’s so fitting. It actually fits with a great deal of New Testament imagery for Jesus as the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. He’s the leader of this new family. He’s the Son of God, but we are brothers and sisters of him. Our elder brother goes before us. John takes that and in a way that highlights the martyrdom of Jesus and the martyrdom of his people in this book. The Lamb, the slain Lamb, shepherds the people of God, the people of God who are under duress, who are persecuted. And know that, firsthand, these people whose lives are so awful right now, John sees them in peace, having come through the tribulation with the One who has gone through it before them on their behalf. [00:32:35] Anthony: As I’m thinking about Jesus and the inauguration of eschatology, the end, we need to know that there is something to look forward to in the midst of suffering. And I think John has given us such a vivid picture of what will be the eschaton that God is caring well for his people. [00:32:59] Chris: Yeah. [00:33:00] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise him that we have this vision of what will be as we try to live into that in the here and now, right? So, thank you for that. Let’s transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s Revelation chapter 21:1–6. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fifth Sunday in Easter, which is May the 18. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them; they will be his peoples, and God himself will be with them and be their God; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away. And the one who was seated on the throne said, “See, I am making all things new.” Also, he said, “Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true.” Then he said to me, “It is done! I’m the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life. It may go without saying, Chris, that this particular text is a favorite for obvious reasons, as believers look forward to the new heaven and new earth. Again, I invite you, if you’re preaching this text to tell us, how would you communicate the weightiness of what is being spoken here? [00:34:52] Chris: It’s a great question. It’s the sort of text that preaches itself. I was reading one preacher from a long time ago, recently, but he opened his sermon saying, “This passage is so vivid and powerful that I should just read it in front of you three more times and call that my sermon.” [00:35:12] Anthony: Yes. [00:35:13] Chris: And I’m sort of tempted to do that with things like this, rather than explaining it to death. People have some kind of long exposure to it that captures what it’s really trying to communicate. So, the imagery is really rich here, but the first thing I’d want to do, and this comes from the text, I t comes from verse three: “See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them. They will be his people. God himself will be with them and be their God.” I would take that declaration, try to open that up. We — all God’s people, and all of this earth, is meant to have its home in God. God is the One in whom we dwell, the One in whom we flourish, and that was the beginning of our creation and God has committed to it being our end as well. We want to linger on the importance of seeking a home in God. There are many great Christian writers who have thought about this. The most famous example of it is Saint Augustine. And it is a well-known line that, “our hearts are restless until they rest in you.” To linger on the longing for a home, I think, is one way of putting ourselves in the spiritual, emotional, existential condition that this text addresses. It’s not really fair sometimes at eight-thirty in the morning, when my church starts to ask people to get to a place of longing for this, because we’re still waking up. But help our hearts be awake to the hope that God is speaking here. I think that’s the first task of a sermon that takes on a text that is just marvelous in its imagery and vision for who we are here. After that I would want to unpack some of the imagery, and there’s lots of the imagery to dive into. Almost every phrase between the commas in this passage is worthy of its own exposition. It’s just soaked in the Old Testament — this image of a new heaven and the new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth have passed away. These promises come to us from Isaiah 65. The exile is over. That’s another kind of home imagery. Also, the exile is over, and the hardship of that life has been redeemed. The sea being no more — in the Bible, the sea often represents this kind of chaos that’s in revolt against God. And so, the elimination of the sea is this kind of revolt replaced by the peace of God’s presence. Also, just a few chapters before this in Revelation, the sea — that was the path by which Rome, Babylon, got wealthy and exploited the whole earth. And so, for the sea to no longer exist, it also suggests that the exploitation that once took place on the sea is a thing of the past as well. The imagery of the city coming down as a bride adorned for her husband — these are pictures of union, reunion, blessing, joy. And I, even in hearing myself say that, the specific thing it’s describing is almost always connected with an emotion, a celebration, a peace, something like that. And holding onto that connection is important, I think. So, this comes from Isaiah 25, a passage of comfort, of a passage of encouragement in which God through the prophet, encourages his people to remain faithful even through great hardship, and then speaks to their hope. And this is what Isaiah 25:6–9 says. On this mountain the Lord of Hosts will make for all peoples a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wines, of rich food filled with marrow, of well-aged wines strained clear. And he will destroy on this mountain the shroud that is cast over all peoples, the covering that is spread over all nations; he will swallow up death forever. Then the Lord God will wipe away the tears from all faces. And the disgrace of his people he will take away from all the earth, for the Lord has spoken. It’ll be said on that day, “See, this is our God; we have waited for him, so that he might save us. This is the Lord for whom we have waited; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation. John is standing in the tradition of this text and saying, we are here now. The home of God is among mortals. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more. This speaks most loudly to people who have fresh awareness of the sting of death, the pain of deprivation, scarcity, injustice. But John is out to just baptize our imaginations in the fact that this is the end for us. We’re moving in this direction. We can let this orient ourselves today and certainly look forward to it being our life in the world to come. [00:40:39] Anthony: That was a delicious word, and I am going to hold onto the way you phrased it, baptizing our imaginations. After speaking with a pastor last night, whose wife recently died, and knowing the pain and the loneliness that this friend of mine is feeling, we long for this. There is a sense of what we have truly longed for comes to pass. And it does come to pass, and the One who is seated on the throne says this, “I’m making all things new.” And sometimes, Chris, I wonder if we pass over that. We don’t think of the implications, because the One sitting seated on the throne doesn’t say, “I’m making all new things,” as if, you know what, Father, we’ve got to go to plan B. This is a mess. We’ve just got to start over. But instead, he’s making what is new, renewing, recreating, baptizing what was into what will be. Hallelujah. Praise God. So, can you talk to that, this recreation that the One on the throne is speaking of? [00:41:44] Chris: That’s a great word. Great attention to detail. All things being new. Reminds me of that other text that also speaks of all things worked together for good in Romans eight. And that is God’s reclaiming of everything so that nothing is lost, and nothing is left behind in the work of redemption. This promise and expectation speaks to me of new creation. So, the word, the verb there is the word for, “to make.” It’s a creation word, and it’s a new creation word. So, in the same way that God raised Jesus from the dead, new creation happens in the body of Jesus. I think I see this promise in Revelation lining up with that, “making all things new,” the new life of God suffusing everything, reclaiming everything. So, we may think about the resurrection scenes and the gospels. This is read in the season of Easter and we’re kind of living in that moment of being reminded of Jesus, being among his people in a way that is continuous with who they knew him to be in his earthly life. But it’s also animated by something new. As Paul says in first Corinthians 15, it was sown corruptible, it was raised incorruptible. I think you know, Anthony, we’re working within the limits of our capacities and imaginations here. But what we see with clarity is that God is committed to creation, committed to this world he has made and the people he is made in it. And to recreation — he doesn’t just wipe the slate clean, but he redeems. And John is comforted by that, calling us to see that and let ourselves view our world in that way as well. [00:43:37] Anthony: Yeah. It’s interesting how it works itself out. And this may seem like a trite example, but I remember the first time my wife and I went house shopping. And I wanted something fairly new, so there wouldn’t be much maintenance, because I’m not exactly a handyman. But she loves to take older homes and restore them, to renew them, to find the beauty where there was ashes, where there was brokenness. And in thinking about that, pondering the way that she sees a home, it teaches me something. It tutors me in the way of God, that he takes what was broken, battered, in the depths of despair and renews it, recreates it into the “Imago Dei,” the way things are, and the way things were meant to be. And it’s so beautiful, and it speaks to — it’s a pertinent word for here and now, because I can see brokenness all around me. I love what you said. God is committed to his creation, and he’s really good at what he does. Certainly, in terms of recreation. Let’s transition to our final text of the month. It is Revelation 21:10, and 22:1–five. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the sixth Sunday in Easter, which is May 25. Chris, we’d be grateful if you’d read it for us, please. [00:45:01] Chris: I’d love to. And in the spirit he carried me away to a great, high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. … Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city. On either side of the river is the tree of life with its 12 kinds of fruit, producing its fruit each month, and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. Nothing accursed will be found there any more. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him; they will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And there will be no more night; they need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. [00:45:57] Anthony: Hallelujah. I think sometimes we make the mistake in biblical interpretation, asking the texts, what does this tell me about me or what I’m supposed to do? And I think the first course of action is to find, what does the text reveal about who God is? So, can you help us with that? What do these scriptures reveal about who God is and what we can anticipate? [00:46:19] Chris: Well, it’s a great instinct and a great question, Anthony. In a narcissistic age, we might actually think it is all about us. But it’s actually not. This passage — like so much of Revelation, but again, the details are important — this passage teaches, insists on the fact, that God intends this restoration for us, for his creation. It is the will of God, and it is joined to the character of God for this to be the future of the world. And this is meant to be for us, as the hymn says, “a strength for today and bright hope for tomorrow.” This is God’s commitment. It’s not based on us. Or, if one of those seven churches, beginning of Revelation, decides to throw in the towel and quit, this is still going to happen. God is more faithful than we are. As we look at the details of the passage and what or how God’s commitment to restoration plays out, we see a lot of the Old Testament caught up in this passage. But especially Genesis. I would encourage anyone who’s studying this passage, go back and read, especially Genesis two and three. Let your imagination kind of work in the resonance between these two passages. In Revelation, we get almost a kind of urban garden. There’s a river running right through it, just like the Garden of Eden. There’s a tree of life, which we haven’t seen in a few pages, but it’s back again. Let your mind try to picture this so you have a main street in the city with a river flowing right through it. And the tree actually seems to be straddling the river, so its roots go onto both sides of the city. There’s not like a good side of the tracks, bad side of the tracks here. Nothing accursed will be found in that city anymore. And think about the curse from Genesis three, when sin entered the world. And this curse resonated through all of creation and all of our relationships. And in place of that curse is the throne of God and the Lamb in the midst of it — opportunity, the ability, to be face to face with God, which is something that has been unavailable to people since the garden. We have brief glimpses of face-to-face encounters or almost face-to-face encounters, in the life of Moses especially, but for the most part, that doesn’t happen in the Bible. But here, all of God’s people see his face. They see him and his name is written on their foreheads. Such a fascinating image of God looking at us and seeing us but also seeing himself in us. And there’s no more night, no need for light of lamp or sun. Again, these are all, these are additional Old Testament images. They speak to the assurance, the comfort, and the peace of this communion that God is committing to establishing. And it’s really a recreation of the communion of Eden, the communion that the tabernacle and the temple sustain, the communion that Jesus brought. And here it finalizes. [00:49:41] Anthony: I can’t help but think of, since we just recently transitioned through a transfiguration Sunday. You’re mentioning seeing God face to face. And of course, his three friends on the Mount of Transfiguration saw a brief glimpse, the thin veil space between heaven and earth, with Jesus transfigured. And Peter, out of his mind, just, “Hey, let’s build three tabernacles here, one for you, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.” But we see here that Jesus, the Father, the Spirit — they are our home. This is our home. And we find our home in him and are able to be transfigured in such a way that we can look upon him and not die, as was often the case that we see in the Old Testament. How we praise him. There are a lot of details in this pericope. Is there anything else that you’d like to bring to the forefront for people that are studying scripture or teaching this text to others? [00:50:39] Chris: I would say I just love all the details of this passage, Anthony. And one thing I would add on that transfiguration note you made is, in the transfiguration scenes, we see Jesus dressed in white — not a surprise. But in Revelation, we see him and all his people dressed in white. [00:51:50] Anthony: Yes. [00:51:51] Chris: Some have seen that as not coincidental, but this kind of unity that God establishes there. So, that’s what, as we’re living in the presence of God here at the end of Revelation, I think that’s another link to Transfiguration Sunday and where we are now. One detail in this text, just — it’s puzzling to me, it’s very full of promise for me — is this line in verse two, talking about the tree of life producing its fruit. And it says, “and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.” That’s a beautiful image. Also, a puzzling image. It reminds me of Adam and Eve covering themselves with leaves and their shame being replaced by these leaves that are meant for healing here. I’m kind of wondering, and I think something I would hope to continue learning about this passage is, why is there a tree for healing in the new Jerusalem? Why is there any mention of healing? Why would you need any healing at all at this point in the story except for the fact that there is this sort of never-ending deepening of our reconciliation and union with God as we live in his presence, this kind of deepening of our life with him forever. That seems to be the only way to explain why you would need anything for healing, except that as creatures we are constantly being turned more and more toward the love and understanding and worship of God and the Lamb in heaven. So, I’ll leave you that with that wondering, with that guess about what may be happening here in the middle of this scene. [00:52:43] Anthony: And one of the things I’ve appreciated that you’ve done throughout the course of this episode, Chris, is to take advantage of the hyperlinks back to the Old Testament so that we see the grand narrative of scripture, that there is a story being told and there’s a movement in that story towards something. And in Revelation, we get to see the culmination in many ways of the telling of that story. And that’s something I would encourage preachers and teachers to do, is to take advantage of those hyperlinks to bring the story forward in the person of Jesus Christ. I think there’s real beauty in that, don’t you, to bring that together? [00:53:22] Chris: Certainly. Yes. [00:53:23] Anthony: Yeah. Chris, thank you so much for being with us. It was a joy to have you and to hear the testimony of the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world who is bringing all creation together in him. Thank you so much for being with us. And listeners, we so appreciate you. We couldn’t do this without you, and I wanted to leave you with this thought from Michael Reeves from his book, Enjoying Christ Constantly and he wrote, “being a Christian means Christ wears your crown, the crown of thorns. You wear, his crown, the crown of glory. He puts on the filthy rags of your sin and shame. And you put on his royal robes of life, blessing and honor. The benefit of being in union with Christ is Christ. He gives us all that he is. He gives us himself.” Amen and amen. I want to thank the team that is behind the podcast. I couldn’t do it without them. I want to thank Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. It’s so great to have a collegial and collaborative team effort to bring this to you. And as is our tradition, we’d like to end with a word of prayer. So, Chris, would you pray for us, please? [00:54:37] Chris: I would love to. Let’s pray. We give you thanks, Lord God, that you are more committed to us than we are to you. Yes, we give you thanks that behind and beyond our line of sight, you are working to redeem this world, that you are closer than we can imagine, and you are more active than we can imagine. We pray that you would renew us by the transforming of our minds through the book of Revelation. Renew us in hope and in confidence, and in doing so, make us faithful to you. We look forward to life in your presence. In Jesus’ name we pray. Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb. If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you! The post Chris Blumhofer—Year C Easter 3-6 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources .…

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Jenny Richards—A Faithful Response to Domestic Violence Against Christian Women 1:27:17

14 weeks ago1:27:17

1:27:17

Jenny Richards—A Faithful Response to Domestic Violence Against Christian Women Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode . Anthony: Hello friends, and welcome to a bonus episode of Gospel Reverb. We like bonus stuff, right? Extra fries at the bottom of a fast food cheeseburger bag. Overtime of a great college sporting event. A bonus episode of your favorite TV show. Or how about a BOGO special at your local grocery store? Bonus! It is good. So here we are with a completely free bonus episode. As you know, Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights and commentary from a Christ centered and Trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Dr. Jenny Richards. Jenny, it’s wonderful to have you back. I think this is your third time on Gospel Reverb , which is some kind of record. So, congratulations on the prize. Our audience has gotten to know you a bit, but why not catch us up on any new developments in your life and vocation? [00:01:33] Jenny: Well, thanks, Anthony. It is lovely to be back, and I appreciate the invitation to join you again. I didn’t know that it was a record, but I’m happy to hold it if that’s the case. A lot has happened, I think. I think the last time I was with you, it was perhaps in 2022. I can’t recall exactly, but a lot has been happening. On the personal front in March, I became a great aunt for the second time to a beautiful little girl who has got the most adorable brown eyes I’ve ever seen in my life. And of course, I’m not at all biased. So that’s, that’s been an absolute highlight of this year. And then work wise. I did try to get a short version for you, I promise, but it’s all happening because when we last spoke, I’d just received my PhD, I think, or possibly just submitted it. I’m not sure, but this year has been the first year of my postdoc working life. And so that always involves hitting the ground running. So, I’ve been involved in some research projects. One’s on domestic and family violence law reform here in Australia. And one on how to ensure that services for older prisoners enable them to age with dignity. I’ve been appointed as a Senior Lecturer now in my college and as a Senior Associate at the St Barnabas Research Centre, which is a research center here that’s affiliated with the University of Divinity, which is a national, collegial university. And I’ve joined the Domestic and Family Violence Working Group of the Adelaide Anglican Diocese, which I think is roughly equivalent to the Episcopalian Church in North America, but I’m not quite sure because I’m not Anglican, but it’s something like that. And I’ve also done a couple of conference presentations, which has been wonderful. And I’ve wrapped up a couple of articles based on my thesis, which are being published in upcoming issues of “Participatio,” which is the journal of the Thomas F. Torrance Theological Fellowship. So, keep an eye out for those. Oh, and in March next year, I’m heading off to Laidlaw College in Auckland for a conference on hope, which I am really looking forward to. And I’ll be catching up with Myk Habets, who is a guest of yours too here, I think. [00:04:07] Anthony: He was. And so, what you’re telling us, Jenny, there’s not really been a lot going on in your life. [00:04:14] Jenny: No, it’s been a pretty slow year, actually. Yeah, pretty slow, pretty slow. I think it’s fair to say that the year has flown. And but it’s been a really rich and a really beautiful time. [00:04:29] Anthony: Well, it sounds like it, and congratulations on your PhD work. And that’s why you’re back on Gospel Reverb . I’ve been, for some time, wanting to have this discussion with you about the central focus of your doctoral thesis. And it revolves around domestic and family violence against Christian women. And this is a subject, you know, from my perspective, that hasn’t been discussed enough in the big “C” Church, the global Church. And so, I wanted to have you on to discuss it. So I want to start at this place: what prompted you to do the enormous research, and write your thesis on this subject? [00:05:15] Jenny: Quite a few things, to be honest, and I had to go right back really to my interest in justice, which has always been there. Although, I’m not an idealist about it, by any means, and I don’t interpret justice legalistically. But I’ve always been very, very interested in it as a concept. I think the idea for this thesis, in different contexts, came probably about 20 years or so ago now when I first came across the work of the Torrances, through J.B. Torrance’s article on the difference between a theological covenant and a legal contract, which I know I’ve spoken about before, and also the work of T. F. Torrance on holistic legal method and rejecting forms of dualism, which I’ll say a bit more about in a little while probably. But among other things, many other things, their work really provides a conceptual framework for integrating things that we’re accustomed to viewing in separate categories, like covenant–contract. And shortly after I started to explore their work, I found myself co-writing a book on how to bring social work and legal practice together. And for me, I had those concepts of covenant and integration and having that conceptual perspective of integration as very relevant to bringing social work and legal practice together. And because J. B.’s piece had looked specifically at theology and law, I found myself wondering whether there was space to view those in an integrated way as well. And so that idea then started percolating away in the background. And so, if you fast forward then to closer to now, most people that I know are aware that I’m a legal academic, and I’ve worked as a criminal lawyer. And at one point, I was a church elder, and I’ve got this expertise in social work law, particularly in the Australian context. And so, I wind up in a lot of conversations about domestic and family violence. And I started noticing that, anecdotally anyway, Christian people would certainly be mindful of the law, but not necessarily know where it would fit in when they were considering what kind of faith response they might make to their situations of domestic and family violence. One of the things that I teach is legal theory. And one of the things we consider there is sources of law and informal law: the idea of legal pluralism and the fact that religion is a key source of imperatives that govern decision making for people. And I noticed a lot of people pondering as a Christian, how should I respond to this situation? And wanting to choose a Christian response and knowing what that might look like. And so, I was noticing these faith norms, these faith imperatives looming quite large for them and quite often sort of sitting parallel to what the law might be saying. And people were wondering, well, which one should I go with? And how can I deal with all of these things? And what should I choose? And that kind of thing. And all of that, watching that sort of decision making process for people made me circle back to the issues raised in J.B.’s covenant and contract paper about the importance of integrated approaches. And I wondered whether the fact that we were viewing faith and law as two separate responses was something that was only occurring in conversation or whether maybe there was something deeper there. So, I decided to explore that for my thesis. And I probably should say, just as a short little caveat here, my thesis looked at violence by married Christian men against their wives. And in our conversation that will be how I’m speaking of it, but that’s absolutely not to say that it doesn’t occur between unmarried people or in same sex relationships. And it also does occur from Christian women against their Christian husbands too. But it’s just that the bulk of the research to date has related to ways in which Christian teachings on heterosexual marriage have been weaponized to justify and condone abusive behaviours. And so that was my focus. But having said that, there’s a lot which can hopefully be applied to domestic and family violence in other contexts as well. And some of that will need to feature in future research. But what I’ve tried to do is chip in some suggestions that will hopefully enable that to be picked up by others. And violence against women and domestic and family violence, in particular, does tend to be a gendered experience. So, that’s the position that I’m coming from in relation to my thesis. [00:10:17] Anthony: I’m fascinated because you’re talking about an integrated faith–law response to domestic and family violence against Christian women. I imagine without having a lot of depth of knowledge of the subject that that’s a different approach to research than other responses to domestic and family violence. And so, I’m sure there’s some sort of story there, Jenny. So why does your research necessitate and where does it sit in relation to the church’s responses to domestic and family violence? [00:10:53] Jenny: You’re right, there is a story there. I mean, some of it, I guess I’ve mentioned a little bit in the background, but there has been a lot of really helpful research into causes and drivers of religious domestic and family violence over many, many years. And particularly connected to the theological teachings that can condone or reinforce it and can at times also constitute barriers to people being able to escape it and especially theological teachings that constitute barriers to it. So repressive interpretations of headship, patriarchal structures and assumptions, gender inequality, all kinds of things can operate when Scripture gets weaponized to keep women in a subjugated role in a marriage. And there’s been a great deal of work done on that worldwide on those kinds of teachings, and the importance of countering them. So, there’s people such as Nason-Clark, and McMullin and their team in the U.S. There’s a team in the U.K. looking at a project called the Restored Project in the U.K. Nason-Clark, and McMullin’s team have the Rave Project in the U.S. There’s been a stack of work, and that’s just some of it. And at the same time, there’s also been a large body of research done into best practice responses by domestic and family violence services. So, on the one hand, you’ve got the work being done on pastoral responses and theological issues. And then on the other hand, you’ve got research being done into best practice in the social work sector, so to speak, for the domestic and family violence services. And one of the key features that’s come out of that research is that in situations of religious domestic and family violence, it’s really important that pastors refer victim-survivors to these DV (Domestic Violence) support services and that the religious drivers and sustainers of violent behavior by religious people are addressed by their religious leaders. And so, there’s a clear awareness that religious leaders need to be part of a collaborative solution and not just try to manage everything. Because the domestic and family violence services are specialized, and they’ve got the training on the relevant safety issues and all of that. But what I noticed, anecdotally, is there’s less understanding of where the criminal justice system responses fit, so to speak, in that grand scheme of things. So, there’s a sense of a need, or an awareness of a need for collaboration in relation to the pastoral issues. But there’s less conversation around what does this mean for criminal justice system responses. And I was coming across people, as I said before, who were reluctant to involve police for reasons connected to their faith. So, unless it was in really extreme circumstances, they seemed to be unsure about whether involving the criminal justice system was an acceptable thing for a Christian to do. And of course, beliefs on that vary. Some pastors would absolutely be saying, yes, definitely do it. Others would say, no, no, you can’t, and anywhere in between. So, beliefs, you know, varied. Teachings varied. But there was this question mark and this uncertainty. And at the same time, I was coming across church leaders who were deeply committed to supporting their congregants who experienced domestic and family violence and weren’t entirely sure how to best engage with support services or how to address some of those issues. So, where I think I was wanting to go in relation to this thesis, was to work out how I could locate some research, conceptually, that would sit between what was already happening and try to look at some of the big picture issues that might help to inform what was already starting to occur on the ground in terms of integration and collaboration. [00:15:09] Anthony: Jenny, in considering the collaboration of criminal justice being part of the engagement for Christian women as part of a response to domestic and family violence, in your research, what did you find? [00:15:24] Jenny: I found quite a number of things that I wasn’t actually expecting. I mean, I had a hunch based on various conversations that I’d had, and so on, that there would be some kind of conceptual element and that there would be some barriers to criminal justice system engagement, just like there were barriers to pastoral support. But the first thing that I found was that the faith teachings and barriers to seeking pastoral assistance overlap with the barriers to seeking assistance from the criminal justice system. That was the first thing, and I didn’t expect that. And the second was that all of the barriers are actually conceptual. To start with, the first barrier was a conceptualization of domestic and family violence as a spiritual matter. When it’s characterized that way, that means that there’s an emphasis on faith sanctioned responses to the violence within the marriage, such as forgiveness, prayer for a husband to change, things like that. And because of the centrality of faith norms to people who are of faith, women are more likely to choose a response that they consider is appropriate within their faith and to therefore only go to the police as a last resort and potentially view that as a concession rather than an appropriate and important option. One thing I would say pretty early on in this conversation is that there are a lot of reasons that people might choose not to go to the police and not to involve the criminal justice system, and that’s absolutely fine. And I didn’t actually deal with that in my thesis. My focus was to try to ensure that a belief that Christians aren’t really allowed to go to the police should not be one of those reasons that they choose not to. So that characterization of domestic and family violence as a spiritual matter and the corresponding emphasis on responses that themselves are spiritual responses was the first [barrier]. The second was a characterization of both the family and religion as private rather than public matters. And that underscores that the first barrier, which was that sacred–secular divide. Because if domestic and family violence is seen as a spiritual matter rather than a secular one, and the criminal justice system is located in the secular, then that constitutes a particular divide that is then complicated by also characterizing family and religion itself as being private rather than public, because the criminal justice system sits in the public realm and not the private realm. And that public–private divide has been around for a long time in Western nations, particularly historically, where the criminal law was seen to not extend into someone’s home. But it governed public life — and often still today, but certainly historically. So, men would be the ones who were in the public sphere. They’re out there working, and they’re involved in politics, and they were voting, and making the decisions, and running things, and all of that. And women were the keepers of the home. And men were at charge in it. Men were in charge at home. That’s where we got the phrase, “a man’s home is his castle.” Because the law didn’t regulate someone’s home, the law regulated the public sphere. Women, because they’re the keepers of the home, they’re responsible for maintaining the family unit. And that kind of conceptualization — and I mean it is shifting today, but certainly historically, that kind of conceptualization does two things. Firstly, it brings shame to the woman if her marriage is not a good one, and she can’t keep her husband happy. And secondly, it means that the overarching responsibility for fixing the problem of domestic and family violence, just like anything else in the marriage, falls to the woman by default. And the law used to operate this way. There was very little regulation of family life by the criminal law because of that public and private divide. Rape in marriage, for example, was not recognized as a crime for a long time, and neither was domestic and family violence. And that was partly because at law, the bodies of wives were seen to belong to their husbands. And a lot of that was due to Christian influences. So, while some of this has moved quite a long way forward — and thankfully so — a lot of these influences are still quite pervasive in terms of what we understand about the role of a husband and a wife in a marriage, and that sense of responsibility for keeping the husband happy and making sure that problems can get fixed. And that overarching sense of responsibility, potentially shame, all of those kinds of things, are still very much pervasive, in some ways, even though the law no longer operates in this way. And so, the influence of those kinds of belief systems are still felt. And in these systems, it’s the maintenance of the marriage that gets emphasized. And with the wife — whose twin duty it is to submit, and to maintain the household and family life — the wife is inevitably bearing responsibility for keeping the family together. And when we factor in theological beliefs that can be twisted to imply that there’s some kind of hierarchy rather than two equal partners in a marriage, it can get very difficult. Because asserting agency against an abusive husband sits uneasily alongside a theological imperative to submit to him. And within these kinds of teachings, divorce, even from a violent spouse, is endorsed rarely, if at all, depending on where one sits on the spectrum of beliefs. So, problems that occur within the marriage are maybe meant to be resolved “in-house” literally. Because again of that public–private divide, the secular services involvement are seen as maybe inappropriate, maybe unnecessary. So, you’ve got both of those characterizations: the sacred–secular and the public–private operating to constitute quite a significant barrier. So, even if a husband did concede that he was in any way mistreating his wife (and quite often it’s quite rare that husbands will own up to that), the pastor would be the one who would admonish the husband, or maybe get the couple to attend Christian marriage counselling, or something like that. And all of those features complicate the visibility of domestic and family violence. They complicate the help-seeking process for women, and they complicate the efficacy of faith-based responses in preventing and addressing domestic and family violence in a way that does justice to the personhood of the women. Honestly, I think that’s actually an overarching theme that came up again and again in my research. The ways in which the subjugation and dehumanization of religious domestic and family violence affect women’s bodies, not just by injuring them, but by systematically devaluing them over and against the needs of the husband for power and control in the first place, and at the same time, denying personhood and affecting sense of self. So, a combination of that sacred–secular divide and that public–private dichotomy are operating in tandem to disincentivize women from seeking help from the criminal justice system. Because, after all, spiritual problems are seen to require spiritual solutions. And religious domestic and family violence fits into the “private” category twice over, because religion is private as well as families being private. So, because these barriers are conceptual, we wind up having the criminal justice system being viewed, or at least risking being viewed, as separate and distinct from faith responses. And as a lesser alternative, [viewed] like a last resort, you know, maybe not necessarily completely off the table, [but] as something that runs parallel, and that we will look to if we have to or if things are serious enough or whatever. There was certainly research supporting women to engage with the justice system, but often it was positioned as being reserved for the “most serious” cases, whatever that means. And of course, if the secrecy around it and teachings which minimise the violence are involved, then there’s a risk that women will think that whatever it is they’re experiencing is not actually serious enough to be worth calling the police for. Particularly if there’s an underlying belief system operating in which women’s bodies and agency are always valued as less than men’s, either implicitly or overtly. And in those kinds of characterizations, the maintenance of the marriage can easily be prioritized over the wellbeing and safety of the people in it. Particularly if there’s messaging — and this came out in some studies — [that] if children are involved, then it’s okay to call the police, but not if it’s “just” the wife being hurt. And so, there’s really, a lot of damaging implicit undercurrents about what we’re saying about personhood and dignity and worth and bodily integrity that just come up again and again and again in a lot of the research. [00:26:02] Anthony: And did you find, Jenny, that religious systems or beliefs, theological teachings (and I think you touched on that) that are opposed to involving the criminal justice system because, you called it, a last resort, so there seems to be a real reluctance to get a comprehensive and collaborative approach. [00:26:24] Jenny: There can be. It does depend on the individual teachings, and there is absolutely a spectrum on it. And even in the conversations that I mentioned at the start, I’ve had conversations with pastors, not as part of this thesis, but in years previous, where there’ll be a pastor who’ll say, “absolutely, you can call the police, absolutely.” And others would say, “no, no, definitely not.” So, there is certainly a spectrum. Very often there’s at least an uncertainty of how they fit together. And that’s particularly because of differences in relation to theological teachings. Because there are various theological teachings that can be interpreted (or explicitly preached, I might add) to mitigate against the justice system engagement. And the biggest there is teachings about forgiveness. Because in a nutshell, again depending on individual beliefs around it, but in a nutshell, involving police can be seen to be as inconsistent with the Christian imperative to forgive. And so, justice takes a back seat to that. And this is partly because if the justice system is positioned as secular rather than sacred, then it becomes even harder to bring it into the toolbox of options as anything other than a last resort. So, you know, go to the justice system if everything else fails, that kind of thing. And that links in with the third barrier. [00:28:02] Anthony: And before you get to that, Jenny, I had this thought because one of the things I had to learn early on in pastoral ministry is to understand my limitations as a pastor. And I think that has been difficult for some. In other words, refer people to the experts and understand that whatever the situation is, I may not be the expert. Yes, I can provide guidance from a spiritual perspective. I can listen. I can pray. I can give some hopefully wisdom to the process, but there are people who have specifically dedicated their lives to training and expertise in a way that I can’t provide it as a pastor. And so, if we see these agencies, these social agencies as being secular and not part of the overall comprehensive response, then yeah, I can see why pastors are reluctant to point their congregants to social services, because that’s an in-house thing. And that’s what you’re speaking against, that these services actually can be a holistic response, which I think might in some way lead to, you know, the other barriers that you want to talk about. But anyway, I just wanted to say that I think it’s really important for pastors to understand: know your limitations and have people on speed dial in your community that can be really helpful to the process. [00:29:27] Jenny: Well, I mean, it’s so needed, and that is absolutely a crucial point because much as we don’t want to believe it, much as we can’t necessarily understand it, because, you know, surely the Christian, the overarching Christian message is love, right? And that would be, I imagine, regardless of denomination. And so, in that sense, violence seems to be the opposite of that. And so, it can be difficult to understand why it might be that this occurs among Christians, why this might actually be happening. But the fact of the matter is that it is. Certainly, the research and stats (I don’t have the American stats to hand), but certainly it would be absolutely fair to say that in any society, that domestic and family violence happens at roughly equivalent, the same rate among Christian couples as it does couples who are not Christian. And so, it is going to be a situation — and sometimes more so — and particularly in, if it’s denominations that have some of these restrictive kinds of teachings that can form barriers and that and that do, for example, preach an inequality in relation to and a hierarchy in relation to the genders and so on. So, it can sometimes be more but it’s certainly roughly equivalent. And so, pastors will come across it. And the fact of the matter is, at least in Australia (and I suspect elsewhere), that the most dangerous time is when couples separate. And so, involving support services is really important from a safety point of view, if the couple is separating (and they might not be), and there are all kinds of things to work through and to do which will address that need for safety. So, it’s definitely not [something that can be done without the required training and most pastors of course know they don’t have that skill set, and this must be borne in mind] when pastors try to navigate through that space [of dealing with a woman who is experiencing emotional, physical or sexual violence from her husband]. So, referral to social services, that’s why it’s seen as best practice. Going through social services, [pastors] referring to social services is actually the safest thing to do, quite apart from anything else. So, what I wanted to do was to look at trying to make sure, that when pastors do refer to domestic and family violence support services, they don’t then outsource all of the conversations about justice system involvement to [those] social services. That they [the pastors] should have conversations about justice system involvement with the woman, rather than viewing justice system questions as being something that should only be dealt with by support services. Because for support services, it’ll depend on the training of the individuals, as to whether or not they’re in a place to provide that kind of content. Social workers have to be very, very careful as to their professional mandate. And so, they wouldn’t be likely to be speaking about theological issues with the women, even if they did actually share the same faith. And so, then you can have a gap, because you’ve got women trying to make decisions about the criminal justice system, potentially feeling as though it’s against their faith to do so, and not having input on those faith-based questions, because it’s all been outsourced to the social services, potentially. [00:33:19] Anthony: Yeah, I think that’s important, Jenny, that we realize social services can be part of the comprehensive response, at the disposal of pastoral leadership. However, not to allow the process to be co-opted because the pastor and the leaders of the church still have something really important to say into the situation to support the woman, the wife, and the marriage. And so yeah. And also hearing the statistics that, across the board, domestic and family violence is pretty much at the same level, that it happens in or outside the church, it’s not surprising. But it’s really disappointing, that’s the case. [00:34:14] Jenny: It really is horrible. It’s a very, very confronting, a very confronting fact. But it’s one of those things that we dare not look away from. Both within and outside of the church and — I’m talking about dichotomies again — but within and outside of the church, it’s absolutely something that we need to just be able to look square in the face. And there certainly are some workers in social services, who are able to look at the justice issues and the theological justice issues, as well as the practicalities and so on, in that social work space. But it really does depend on the individual training of the workers and the individual structure of that particular service. And so what I was hoping to do was to say, okay, well, how can we try to find a way to view all of this conceptually so that we can start to undergird things and make that much more normalized, rather than just hinging on the individual workers who may or may not be able to do it? Because if it’s normalized it changes the whole conversation, right? But positioning the criminal justice system as being something that is not sitting in the secular basket and the faith response as not being something that is sitting in this sacred basket, but doing away with that whole divide, I think, is incredibly important. And particularly and even things like I mentioned before, one of the things that can happen if everything just stays in the sort of — is conceptualized as a spiritual thing, then movements towards counseling and all of that can be viewed as needing to occur just in a spiritual context. And counseling is absolutely important, but it needs to be a very particular type of counseling. You know, marriage counseling is not appropriate in a situation of domestic and family violence, where you have power imbalance, and you have all of these other dynamics. It’s not a marriage dispute. It’s something completely different. And so, the kinds of intervention need to be targeted towards that kind of behavior and taking those dynamics into account. And the ordinary kind of pastoral counselling, (and I’m no expert in it, I don’t do it) but it’s targeted in a very different way. And so particular need and particular expertise is really, really important to consider in that frame. And it’s difficult to do that if we’re stuck in these binaries of what’s a faith thing and what’s a law thing, or what’s a social work thing. And if we could just break those down and just look at everything in that integrated way, it would be much easier, I think, to approach things comprehensively, to approach them consistently, and to approach them in a nuanced way, to take all of the variables into account. Because every situation will be quite different, and what might be possible in terms of personal recovery, and all of those kinds of things, will be different for every situation. And it would give us, I think, a much more rigorous way and careful way to approach the issues that are involved. [00:37:57] Anthony: And I would imagine, you know, in thinking about an integrated response, a comprehensive response (and you’ve touched on this in our previous conversations and already here today), that the theological work of the brothers T.F. and J. B. Torrance, I imagine were pretty extensive in terms of informing your research. Would you be willing to talk about how their work has informed your work? [00:38:25] Jenny: I would love to. And I guess I would say that there are several key ways in which their work informed the research. And the short version — I’m struggling to give you a short version — but the short version is that I drew on their work for the theological content of what a faith response might look like, but also for the approach that’s needed to bring that conceptual integration. And because the conceptual barriers all involved forms of dualism: so we’ve got the sacred–secular divide; the public–private dichotomy; and the third conceptual barrier was a tendency to separate out various teachings from one another and elevate them and give primacy to some. And I think I mentioned before, forgiveness is the perfect example of that. If forgiveness is sort of seen as encapsulating the key way in which spiritually somebody should be responding to violence then that can actually be weaponized in itself and complicate it and can cause a barrier to be built. The classic would be, you know, a wife saying, “Well, how am I supposed to be calling the police on my husband? I should be forgiving him. I can’t get him thrown in jail,” and seeing those things as inconsistent and not knowing how to navigate through that space. So, I used the work of T.F. and J.B. for all three of those barriers. That’s because the theological method of the Torrances, that is, their teachings on the mediation of Christ and the Incarnation and their teachings on other specific issues such as theological covenants, personhood, forgiveness, repentance, and justice, all of those are highly relevant. So, employing their theological method to inform what a Christian worldview looks like, [doing] that actually enables us to view legal issues and faith issues as being held together rather than separated. So that assists in not just overcoming, but rejecting the sacred–spiritual divide or the, sorry, the sacred–secular divide, and that public–private dichotomy, and any tendency to separate out teachings and apply them transactionally. So, because if you overemphasize forgiveness and start demanding it from somebody, it can be applied in a very transactional and quite contractual kind of way. So, their work and their theological method involve a rejection of dualist frames of thinking about God, about reality, about humanity and human relating. Dividing reality into categories such as public–private, sacred–secular, and also separating out doctrines from one another, all of those can be challenged using their theological method. And T. F. Torrance has written on that quite explicitly. And that’s based on their understanding of the Trinity, especially, as I said before, the Incarnation and the mediation of Christ, and what the humanity and divinity of Christ means for human dignity and worth. And so, the Torrances’ work on holistic theological method demonstrates that this kind of dualistic worldview is not actually Christian. So, it provides a mechanism not just for bridging the divides but actually rethinking how we conceptualize these issues and therefore the solutions. So, they provide quite a rich source of work in relation to what Christian hope itself might look like in these contexts. Because all of the dichotomies — the sacred–secular, the public–private, and that perceived disconnection of teachings — all of those are false. It’s not actually unchristian, or any kind of failing of faith, or second-class option to involve the law, including the justice system. And we have at my university, they have this thing called the “three-minute thesis competition” where you have to try to sum up your thesis in three minutes, and people somehow managed to do it. I have no idea, because you might have worked out by now that I’m a little verbose. But I said to them, “I can’t do it in three minutes. I have no idea.” If I was going to encapsulate my thesis in anything, it wouldn’t be three minutes. It would just be one sentence, which would be: “it is not unchristian to involve the law and to involve the justice system; a Christian worldview is an integrated worldview.” This is what we learned from the Torrances: a Christian worldview is an integrated worldview. So, a Christian response to violence is a faith-law response to violence. Or a faith-law-social work response to violence. That is actually a Christian worldview; that’s thoroughly Christian. It’s Western philosophy that separates out into categories. That’s not actually the Christian worldview, according to the Torrances. So, they use a lens in relation to all theological issues which is Christological, and which rejects all forms of dualism as being inconsistent with fundamental Christian teachings about the nature of the Trinity. And one of the consequences of all of those barriers, and particularly the weaponized teachings that flow from them, is to compound and magnify the physical and sexual devaluation of women’s agency and bodies; that is inherent in being subjugated within their violent relationships. That’s what happens in that kind of violent relationship. And that’s one of the consequences, particularly of these weaponized teachings, is to worsen all of those consequences of the violence. It’s imperative that a view of justice that recognizes and accounts for the value of the woman’s person can be brought to bear in response. And so, the incorporation of theological teachings that speak to those issues into the process is really critical. So, that’s the snapshot of how I use the Torrances. But apart from for the framework, one of the other things that I used them for was to provide a way for us to account for and respond to those additional layers of damage that occur in religious, domestic, and family violence, and particularly against Christian women. Because violence impacts someone’s sense of self and, and their being. And it depersonalizes, and it impacts what a person knows and believes about themselves and others. And an integrated or holistic conceptualization would hold those impacts together and view them as interrelated. That’s part of T.F.’s theological method as well. So, because they are holistic and non-dualist in their Christology and their Trinitarian focus, they bring a model of integration in which those various doctrines can be held together, rather than separated out. And they provide a built-in safeguard and a litmus test, a theological litmus test, if you like, against particular teachings being weaponized by an abusive spouse, particularly teachings about forgiveness, or suffering being normalized as part of the Christian experience, or patriarchal interpretations of headship and mutual submission in marriage and things like that. And T.F. Torrance uses the concept of “onto-relations” in which the relationships between things are constitutive of what they truly are, and holds ontology and epistemology together. And there’s a lot in all of that which I didn’t go into in the thesis, and I won’t go into now. But it’s a different way of understanding being and reality and what people understand about themselves and how they’re known, than what is commonly seen in Western philosophical dualisms. And it assists in holding together the conceptual and practical issues involved in domestic and family violence. And to me, that’s because violence affects people’s bodies. It’s one of the reasons that part of my title was “Embodied Justice.” Because violence affects people’s bodies, their being, and how they are able to be in the world. And it also affects their sense of self, what they believe and know about themselves. Because there’s that physical and sexual devaluing of a person in domestic and family violence, and that speaks a word of implicit lesser worth. There is that depersonalization that’s inherent in the violence has an ontological and epistemological effect, and those can best be addressed if they’re held together. The Torrances’ holistic theological method and that concept of onto-relations is helpful here as well. And as I said, there’s a lot more to onto-relations than that. And it bears exploring further, but as a starting point for us at least, the profound union and integration that undergirds it speaks volumes on a range of levels that are useful as we unpack the effects of interpersonal violence, and particularly domestic and family violence. Because in a Trinitarian and a Christological understanding, the Incarnation and the priesthood of Christ radically affect what Christians understand about human being and human dignity and reality itself. And there are far-reaching implications that have profound restorative potential, especially in an area where for so long the problem just seems to be intractable and very difficult to address conceptually. So, I will say TF’s concept of onto-relations does a lot more work theologically than simply to suggest that we theorize reality in a holistic way. There are certainly legal and other theories which do that. And that’s another reason why a rejection of dualism is helpful here. But the Torrance’s commitment to a holistic theological method and the concept of onto-relations itself is not at large. It’s a Trinitarian and Christological concept, and so it keeps bringing the theological discussion back to what is understood in a Trinitarian perspective in the person of Jesus and the work of Jesus, because those things are not separated, for the Torrances. That has relevance for the theological concept of covenant and for a Trinitarian understanding of the various doctrines too. You know, they’re not to be separated or disconnected from the person of Christ. They’re not to be applied in a transactional way, which would empty them of their restorative and personalizing content and would let them be weaponized. They’re not to be used that way. So, for example J.B. ‘s understanding of theological covenant is that it involves unconditional love, right? Well, some people could easily interpret that to mean that a wife must never divorce her husband no matter how he treats her, because she’s supposed to just keep loving him unconditionally. Or, to interpret forgiveness as meaning permissiveness, and so that would actually have her trapped, if this unconditional covenantal love means now she’s stuck in this violent relationship. People could try to weaponize it that way, but that would be a contractual understanding of the relationship and not a covenantal one at all. So, it’s really important in this conversation. And one of the strengths of the work of the Torrances is that it’s not actually, it’s never just about doctrines or just about teachings. They are always grounded as Trinitarian and Christological concepts. [00:51:20] Anthony: Yeah, I’m thinking about what you’re saying on the level of theology and its ability, especially the theological method of the Torrance brothers, to speak into this situation. There’s several things at play here, Jenny, at least what I’m hearing. It’s the Church and the couple involved in the violent relationship being able to have the discussion in the first place, not to hide it, not to ignore it and act as if it’s not there. So, it’s actually having a conversation that brings to light what’s been otherwise in the darkness. Then there is, okay, what do we do as a church? How do we respond to this? How do we involve others in the process to stop the violence? Because good news to somebody who is being beaten is the stop of that violence, right? So there’s got to be that part of it, but it doesn’t just stop there, just stopping the violence. Because then the response is okay, how do we care well, for not only the person who is being abused, but the abuser? There’s a spiritual element to how do we help both of these parties involved. Because both have been hurt, as we often say here in the States, hurt people, hurt people. So, it is helping the person who is abused, but it’s also helping the abuser. And then I think there’s also the part of, okay, how we respond, what is that communicating to the other congregants in the church? So, there’s a lot of dynamics in play. And so, what I hear you saying is — I’m trying to summarize it in my own head and think about practical responses here. There’s all of these dynamics that are held together, that are held together by the theological work of the Torrances because it’s just a reflection of who we see God as a triune God, fully integrated in their personhood, Father, Son, and Spirit. And so, I think there’s a really practical element to this. And so, I’m not going to ask you to do the three minute summary of your thesis because we’ve already found that’s unfair. However, I think it is important that you summarize your findings, what all of this has led to and how it can be brought to bear in the church. So, could you do that for us? Could you summarize what you have found in your research? [00:53:51] Jenny: Sure. J.B. talks about the responsibility. You know how you were saying, we need to have a conversation with the two and how do we care for both and that kind of thing? I mean, some of that needs to be done very carefully because it would be massively unsafe to — you don’t confront the husband. You just, you don’t. Because then they will just take that out on the wife, in most circumstances. And I mean, a husband who’s repentant, you can work with, but many aren’t. So, there’s a whole process there. One of the things that I did do was look at J.B.’s model of socio-political reconciliation and on how a husband is required to exercise unconditional repentance. For my findings, the first thing I tried to do was come up with a framework for approach, a different conceptual framework for approaching domestic and family violence against Christians. And the first was to take that integrated faith law understanding of domestic and family violence and its effects and then using holistic, covenantal understandings of the relevant faith teachings. The third point was to recognize the congruence that exists between the relevant faith concepts and the legal concepts. Because the criminal justice system, for example, is not just about punishment, even though that’s one of the things that a lot of people associate it with. So, these elements in the criminal justice system are not actually inconsistent with Christian teachings. So, they don’t have to be polarized at all. And then to normalize integrated responses. So, and in terms of the congruence of the law and faith teachings: the law denounces domestic and family violence and provides a vindication and a very clear word that that kind of behavior is completely unacceptable. And it also holds space for restoration and relational considerations, expressions of remorse, all of those kinds of things. It’s not just centred on punishment. And so, partly for all of those reasons, but especially in an integrated faith law approach, it’s not unchristian to involve the criminal justice system, as I said before: the justice system is a potential part of a faith response. They’re not alternatives. And so, it doesn’t have to be reserved as a last resort. And taking that holistic understanding of domestic and family violence can then be used as a way to set a foundation for integrated responses that include church, domestic violence, and criminal justice services. And all of that gives us a capacity to deal with these incredibly damaging faith beliefs that effectively sacrifice women’s wellbeing in order to try to just maintain marriages or to preference keeping the peace or keeping the family together or whatever it might be. And so, one of the things I think that is most key in all of that, in terms of, as you said, “what are your findings? What does this mean for us on the ground?” One of the key things there that I tried to do was look at a model of socio-political reconciliation that J. B. Torrance developed dealing with post-apartheid South Africa for reconciliation, for ways that the church could engage in the broader community to try to assist in rebuilding. In that model — and that model didn’t deal with domestic and family violence, I tried to modify it. But one of the things that he does in that model is look at what theological justice looks like and how forgiveness and repentance operate and those kinds of things. And in that model, he looks at that interrelationship of repentance, love, justice, freedom, and reconciliation. And rather than teachings that would locate the active response on the person who’s been harmed — so here it would be on the women — rather than have teachings that locate the active response to violence on women, in which because she’s responsible for the home life, she’d have to be the one praying, trying to change her husband’s behavior, trying to be a “better wife,” quote unquote, or even just bearing all the emotional load of it. The flip side of unconditional love of covenant is unconditional repentance. And so, a person who has wronged another, and here it would be in a domestic and family violence context, that person would be required to unconditionally repent and see that justice is done for the person that they’ve harmed. That’s their responsibility in a covenantal relationship. And so, there’d be no room for a perfunctory apology in order to put pressure on a wife to forgive and just resume the marriage. It would be the husband’s responsibility to make that situation right, including making whatever reparation might be needed. And for myself, I think there’s room there to say that if a wife had called police and was involving the criminal justice system, then a repentant husband who is responsible to act justly towards his wife should be agreeing to an intervention order, should be making sure that she’s the one who remains in the home and has that stability. And if criminal charges do wind up being brought against him down the track, he should be pleading guilty — after getting legal advice, of course. And in any event, sparing his wife from going through the ordeal of a trial: those kinds of things might actually form part of his repentance. So one of the really, I think, striking things about J.B.’s model there, is that it shifts the locus of responsibility for bearing all of this and solving all of this and being the one who tries to sort it all out and deal with the load of it, in addition to the harm of it. It moves all of that off the person who’s been harmed. And instead, the responsibility to see justice done is actually located on the person who has done the harm. In this model, it would be on the husband. It’s his responsibility to make sure that justice is done for his wife. Now, all of that, of course, requires someone who is prepared to be repentant, and that, unfortunately, can be quite rare. And that would be a caveat, I think, you know, in terms of how the church can care for the wife and also pastorally care for the husband. That’s going to be very dependent on whether or not the husband is prepared to take responsibility and be accountable and own that behavior, and many won’t. And so, it would be very, very dangerous potentially, to — any intervention there would need to be done very, very carefully depending on the willingness of the husband to own their violence. Otherwise, it could actually create an unsafe situation. Which is why, just as you said before, involvement of social services and doing that in conjunction with them would be really important. But the best way [for church leaders] to love a husband who is attempting to face up to their own abusive behavior, is to ensure that they can be held accountable and not in a way that will deny their worth or their value as a human being or any of those things, but tough love, and accountability and requiring them to own that. You know, in some research you’ll see churches will show up with character references for husbands in court and things like that, rather than just holding them to accountability programs and anger management and all of those sorts of things and walking with them on that journey. Because that is actually their journey to restoration as a human being who’s not devaluing their spouse. And it’s easy not to see those layers to it, if all we’re looking at is, “okay, has this person been forgiven?” But the forgiveness of the husband is not more important than the safety of the wife. And we need to hold all of these things together. And a husband can be forgiven, and that does not mean the marriage needs to continue. A lot of those things will be contingent on many other factors. And so, we need a way of dealing with all of these issues that lets us hold them together and doesn’t wind up by default leaving wives at ongoing risk. So, for me, that model of sociopolitical reconciliation, which — and as I said, I’ve adapted it, right? But the thing that really stuck out to me in that model, apart from a quote of J.B.’s where he said, “Love without justice is sentimentality.” The other thing that struck me in that model was that he located the responsibility for bringing justice and making reparation very squarely in the corner of the person who had done the harm. That’s actually part of their pathway back. That’s actually part of what they can bring. And part of enacting their own restoration is to ensure that they make that situation right. And that’s partly because concepts like righteousness, for example, in the Old Testament — this is the other thing that J.B. Torrance talks about a lot, is the language slippage that occurs around words like “law” and “justice.” And the way in which those things have been translated in a transactional way, in a very dry and legalistic way, rather than a relational way. For example, righteousness in the Hebrew. The framework of law and therefore of justice theologically is a restorative one that requires and incorporates forgiveness, repentance, reparation, and it paves the way for relational reconciliation if it’s safe to do so, and if it’s desired. But in contrast, the Latin understanding of justice is only referring to justice by itself, disconnected from these other contexts and externally imposed as this wholly legalistic and punitive concept. So, understanding that broader view of theological justice that’s much more aligned with other features of the justice system is a real key to, I think, dealing with the layers that are actually going on, not just in terms of the harm and safety considerations, but what’s needed for restoration. So, a conceptualization of theological justice that aligns with legal concepts of justice enables a much more nuanced experience of justice to be brought forward for women, because it enables an experience of vindication, a restoration of dignity, and a sense of their personhood and the value of their personhood to be brought forward to comprehensively and carefully redress the injustice of depersonalization and that weaponization of theology that has so often enabled it to be perpetuated. Because there are layered pastoral and personal issues that need to be worked through. And I’m very thankful that it’s people like yourself, Anthony, that have to deal with those and not me. And every situation is unique, but this kind of approach will hopefully open space for that. So, you know, in terms of, I suppose, more specific findings, I think I’ve jumped into a segue. But the Christian gospel condemns domestic and family violence comprehensively, that’s clear. You know, a man’s wife is not the one person he can get away with brutality towards just because he’s married to her. She’s a beloved child of God whose humanity has been profoundly affirmed and dignified in the humanity of Christ. And that’s why someone’s dignity is never actually lost, just because it is assailed or denied or despised by another. And that kind of affirmation — this was the other finding that I came to. This kind of affirmation is reflected in the law. And one of the most powerful aspects of the criminal law’s structure is the way in which it’s designed to denounce violence and that inherent vindication that lies within it. And so, realising that, particularly when so often theological beliefs can be used to minimize and dismiss and condone violence, it is powerful to see that written into the law is a prohibition on all forms of domestic and family violence, and measures to ensure protection. Now it’s a really flawed system. I know it’s a flawed system. But its design, its standpoint, or its orientation is for the women. And all of that then leaves more space for restoration, and we see other elements that are built into sentencing aims and processes and the structure of the law itself. All kinds of aspects of the justice system are actually to do with all of these other things and not actually just punishment. And so, viewing faith as being about forgiveness, and justice as being about punishment is a very, very unhelpful and reductionist kind of way of looking at it, I think. So, as I said before, the criminal justice system is very flawed and many people may well not want to engage, particularly because of safety considerations and just the relational dynamics that are present. I’m aware of that. I think probably everyone is. But what we dare not perpetuate is any kind of explicit or even implicit messaging that a faith response is distinct from the broader justice system, and it’s one that Christians are required to choose between. They’re not inconsistent, and they’re not even separate. It is possible to take a faith-law approach, and that is actually a Christian understanding and worldview . So, that’s really what a conceptual shift towards integrated approaches that include the justice system can open up space for. [01:10:13] Anthony: Yeah, and that’s a huge shift, is it not? I mean, it’s often we — like, even in Scripture, you can read sections where Christians are taking other Christians to court, and frivolous things become problematic within the faith community. So, I think there has been this default, Jenny, where it is a last resort. But what you’re saying is there is an integrated approach where the justice system and its support system can be brought to bear. And actually, that can bring about restoration for both parties. [01:10:54] Jenny: Yeah, I think there is potentially a way of approaching this issue, and as I said, there’s of course, a lot more to it than this, and I mean, there’s so much that still needs to be worked through. This is one little slice, right? It’s just a different way of viewing this. My hope is that a conceptual shift towards integrated approaches, which include the justice system, can open up some space. And this kind of reconceptualization can illuminate — particularly for Christians — can illuminate the power of the Christian gospel to kind of provide freedom and restoration and so on more clearly and then assist in undergirding and furthering the existing collaborative work that’s taking place to enable those nuanced conversations about justice considerations. So that we can start having conversations that have deep restorative potential to bring an experience of justice for women. [01:12:03] Anthony: Yeah, it’s something I hope for as well. And so, let’s think about it this way, Jenny. Why don’t you give us your takeaway, our takeaway? What it should be as Christians, particularly as church leaders and future leaders? And help us understand how churches can take an integrated faith-law response. What would that practically look like? [01:12:26] Jenny: You posed that question for me quite a while ago, I think we were talking about this months ago and I have been mulling it over. And there’s a lot in that that I can’t answer, and that you would be, and other pastors would be, far better to answer. But for me, I do think that that kind of faith-law lens shows that the Christian gospel is profoundly with and for women in the face of brutality and denial and personhood and injustice that is inherent in DV [domestic violence]. So, I think, you know, the first standpoint is for the women. But what that means particularly would be that that call from the law and from faith to respond rightly to their violence is on the violent husbands. They’re the ones who need to bear the load of that, and respond to that. So Christian women don’t have to bear up under violence and just pray more. And they’re not the ones who are responsible to bring the change and end the violence. That’s the responsibility of the husband, and hopefully pastoral care can help with that if it’s safe for that work to happen. But on a practical level on the ground beyond that — because a lot of that work needs to be done in conjunction with social services — but beyond that, in churches, for me, I think there’s space for us to challenge a whole congregation, for example, to question the stereotypes that we have about everything to do with gender roles, what we value in people, how we view their humanity, how we understand all of that. One of the key things that the Torrances speak about, is participation and discipleship, and engaging in that. Participating in the life of Christ, and all of those sorts of things are really key, important concepts for Christians on the ground. So, how could a church congregation, for example, challenge itself to question those sorts of stereotypes, to call out violence, to create a culture where it’s very clear that it’s not actually accepted? How are we enacting justice as a core expectation of our congregations, for example? What would be required as repentance, [for] someone who had been violent, what would that look like? How are we building a trauma informed place of safety in our congregations? How are we indicating explicitly and implicitly that we won’t tolerate any forms of domestic and family violence? Out of this rigorous commitment to recognizing the image of God that’s expressed in each human being, regardless of gender, those kinds of almost cultural questions, I think, are also really important particularly in prevention; and just what kind of Christian community does any particular church want to be? So conceptualizing domestic and family violence and its effects, and its responses holistically, and viewing justice responses and DV service responses as part of a Christian response to DV will hopefully be a positioning that can actually be quite, quite freeing and open up more opportunity, not just for women in their decision-making, but for the whole church community. Because there’s enough to wrestle with, when faced with an issue that is this pervasive and this serious and that affects someone’s life and personhood in such a profound way. So, I think it’s taking those kinds of approaches. And that is a way, too, that lets us focus on the positive, and build the community up in relation to how the members interact and create church communities, for example, as a place of safety, where it is normalized that everyone is treated well and that these things are not actually tolerated; rather than assuming that they don’t happen here, they happen out there. But instead changing that conversation and the way in which we view what is and isn’t acceptable for how we — I say we, but how people in churches treat each other as children of God. So, some of it, I think, goes a lot further than just: “what can we practically do when we encounter violence in a couple between a couple in the church? And “between” is the wrong word there, by the way. But it’s not just about how do we respond in a situation where we know that there is violence that’s being perpetrated against someone in a relationship. I think, there’s a lot that we need to change culturally, in terms of what we see around how people are valued and whether or not we really are taking seriously and living out what we know about the dignity and value and personhood and worth of every single person made in the image of God, that we see in the Incarnation, and the life of God that is mediated in and through Jesus. Those kinds of things, all of that, informs the way that churches can be looking at this issue. [01:18:52] Anthony: Yeah, it’s an embodied justice, which I think is part of the title of your thesis, is it not? And it’s one thing to say we’re opposed to domestic and family violence. It’s an entirely different, entirely different thing to embody a response to that. It’s messy. It’s difficult. It’s weighty. It must be done with great care and dignity. And this is one of the things I appreciate about this approach that you’ve brought to us here today is that it’s for the human personhood. It’s for the agency of the woman and the man who is the abuser, even though that brings its own set of challenges. But it’s not just against violence, which of course we are against, but it’s an approach that is for the people that are involved in such a difficult, painful situation. And yeah. Boy, this has to be entered into with great care and wisdom. And so, I just want to thank you, Jenny, for the investment of blood, sweat, and tears into your thesis that brings this concept to bear. This is a conversation we need to be having, and this is why I invited you onto this podcast. We need to have it. I really appreciate it. And I appreciate you and the investment that you’ve placed into this. And I’m just curious, and I’m going to ask this — off the top of your head, if people want to do a deeper dive into everything that you’ve brought to bear here, what resources, if any, can you point people to? And maybe if there’s nothing off the top of your head that you want to point people to, maybe we can think about that included in the show notes as well. But would you have something you’d want to point people to? [01:20:44] Jenny: One thing I would suggest, and I think, let’s definitely get some links. And we can link some resources. The RAVE project that I mentioned that Nancy Nason-Clark, and McMullin and their team have done. They’ve got some great resources, and they’re in North America. So, they’ve got some great resources. There’s materials, church resources, put out in the UK by a group called Restored UK. They’ve got a guide for church leaders for how to navigate through situations of DV, including how to support perpetrators in a way that doesn’t make it look as though this is an “equal” situation, and it’s very clear that the church is standing with the woman, but is still assisting the husband in his own journey for taking responsibility. So how to hold those two things together? The Restored U.K. There is an Australian version of that, which is called Renew. So, I’ll link that as well, in case there’s any Aussies who want to have a look at that. Those would probably be really useful resources off the top of my head. In terms of looking at a bit more information in relation to the Torrance’s theology on this, I do have a book chapter we can link, if you’d like, that I think it came out after I last spoke to you. So, there’d be that. [01:22:22] Anthony: Please. That’s extremely helpful. This has been an insightful conversation, Jenny. And as I prayed before we actually went live, my hope in this is that it will start needed conversations around dinner tables and church fellowships because this has been held in the quiet, dark corners of churches for too long. And I just sense that, by the Spirit, there’s a reckoning going on. We need to care well in situations of domestic and family violence. So again, thank you, thank you, thank you for your labor of love. Congratulations, Dr. Jenny Richards on the good work that you have done. And I know you’re speaking about this at conferences, and I pray that the Lord will open doors for these conversations to continue in needed places. So, thank you. And I want to thank our team, our podcast team, Elizabeth Mullins, Reuel Enerio, Michelle Hartman for their excellent work that make this podcast possible. And I want to thank our listeners. Thank you for this journey. This is a bonus episode on a specific topic, and I pray that it’s been helpful to you. And as is our tradition, we close with prayer. So let me do that as we. Closed down. Yes, Jenny. [01:23:40] Jenny: The only other thing I would say is if people want to continue the conversation, they’re very welcome to email me. I’d be very interested in talking to anyone who’s working in this space or interested in this space or whatever. [01:23:53] Anthony: That would be excellent. Why don’t we put your email in the show notes, and we’ll allow people to connect with you. Jenny’s awesome! She’s not only is somebody who’s highly gifted and skilled to talk about the subject matter, but she’s just a wonderful human being. So, I think if you reach out to her and interact, you’re going to find what I have found that she’s an exceptional person, made in the image and likeness of God. So, let’s close with a word of prayer. Father, Son, and Spirit, it is a joy to know you and be known by you. Lord, there is nothing that we have said or nothing going on the face of this planet that you are unaware of, that you don’t care about. You are intimately involved in the affairs of women and men, and we give thanks for that. And Lord, as you mediate our relationships, we invite you to enter in, to bring about the restoration that you seek. A return to the goodness and the belonging that was there even from the beginning in the garden, Lord. We ask and seek that, we seek restoration. We seek reconciliation. And Lord, we know that to bring that about often can be painful. We’re a broken world. We’re broken in our relationships, broken in our sexuality, or just we’re broken people that are seeking you to restore us, to forgive us. And to bring about the wholeness that we all long for, even if we don’t know how to give voice to it. So, I pray a blessing upon Jenny Richards and her work to help the church bring about restoration in the lives of husbands and wives, Lord, to bring about justice, embodied justice. We pray for your forgiveness where we have not lived into the ideal of what you have for us, the ideal that we esteem others higher than ourselves. Forgive us, Lord. And I just pray for the pastors who are listening, church leaders, that you would give them wisdom that comes by the discernment of the Spirit, to know when to involve themselves, to speak up, to ask the appropriate questions, because it is such a delicate matter. Give us wisdom, Lord, that can only come by the Spirit. There is so much we don’t know. Inform us by the indwelling of the Spirit. And Lord, we pray for those who are being abused in this moment, Lord. We want the abuse to stop. We want the violence to stop. We see that we are a people that are that lust for violence. We see it here where I’m stationed in the United States. We see it in another school shooting this week. We lust for violence and death and destruction. It is not the way. So, Lord, we ask by your Spirit, you would bring us to the Way. Show us the better way in yourself, which you have done and may we act upon it. Lord, thank you for this conversation. May it be a blessing to the hearers, and we give thanks in Jesus. Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb . If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you! The post Jenny Richards—A Faithful Response to Domestic Violence Against Christian Women first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources .…

Gospel Reverb | Grace Communion International Resources

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Catherine McNiel—Year C Easter Prep 5, Passion, Easter 1-2 58:17

15 weeks ago58:17

58:17

Catherine McNiel—Year C Easter Prep 5, Passion, Easter 1-2 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now, onto the episode . Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb . Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ-centered and Trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Catherine McNiel. Catherine is an author, hospital chaplain, and speaker at conferences and retreats. Her books include Fearing Bravely , Long Days of Small Things , and All Shall Be Well . She is currently a Master of Divinity student at North Park University in Chicago. And you can learn more about Catherine by visiting her website at CatherineMcNiel.com. And we’ll put that in our show notes so you can visit her and her work later on. Catherine, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on the pod, we’d like to know you a little bit, your story, your backstory, and how you’re joining Jesus in his ministry these days. [00:01:44] Catherine: Well, thank you, Anthony. I’m thrilled to be here with you with our listeners. My story and my backstory — I’m a little bit of a jack of all trades when it comes to life and ministry. I have three teenagers, so that is definitely a major component of my life. As you mentioned, I’m also a writer. I’d spend lots of my days with words and specifically, as a ministry, studying the Bible, figuring out how to teach either through book form or Bible studies, devotions, through leading retreats. I love to have one hand in God’s word and another hand in the real lives of the people around me and the people who interact with my words. My work as a chaplain in the hospital uses a different but similar muscle as I come alongside people in some of their darkest moments and hopefully bring the light and the peace of Christ with me as I go. And I’m also working at the moment as a pastoral intern at a local church as part of my work for my MDiv. So, a little bit of everything at the moment. But it’s a joyful collaboration of events. [00:03:06] Anthony: You sound quite busy. And I am curious, Catherine, which of the three teenagers is your favorite? [00:03:14] Catherine: I’m not allowed to answer that question publicly. No, my attorneys — I’m just kidding. I do love them all. I was warned about the teenage years, and it is harrowing. And it is exhausting, but it is also delightful. It’s amazing to see these people that I have known since before they were even in my arms so themselves. And to find out who they are as growing, nearly adult people. And the relationship that we have built as a family all this time. It is truly a stunning thing to behold. So, I feel grateful. [00:03:56] Anthony: What a testimony of God’s love. [00:03:59] Catherine: Yes. [00:03:59] Anthony: I’m sure if I had them on this podcast, they would rate you a 10 out of 10 as a mother. And so, thank you for all you’re doing, and your labor of love and service to Christ and the people around you. We have no doubt that you are a gift. And thinking about what you do — you talked about your love for words. You interact with them. Frequently. [00:04:21] Catherine: Yes. [00:04:21] Anthony: And one of your books is called Fearing Bravely , which is — I love it. It’s intriguing. It seems like a bit of a dichotomy. How do you do something bravely while fearing? But I’m sure that is all held together. So, tell us about it, and maybe what you want your readers to take away from that particular book. [00:04:43] Catherine: Well, I’m so glad you asked, Anthony. My editor and publisher and I went around and around trying to find just the right words for this book. The subtitle is Risking Love for Our Neighbors, Strangers, and Enemies . And the kind of overall message that I am trying to give in this book or to explore, to wrestle with, is that Jesus gave pretty clear marching orders, you might say, or invitation, you might say, to his followers to love extravagantly because we were first loved and because we have found a love that is greater than even death. And therefore, we are free to love sacrificially our neighbors as we love ourselves. And then Jesus expands that to loving even strangers, especially those who are traveling migrants, immigrants who are extra vulnerable in our communities. And then he expands that even to loving our enemies. And that is a hard teaching. And what I have seen, you know, with one hand in the Bible, with Jesus’ teaching here, and the way he lived that out, and how the early church wrestled with living that out. But then I have my other hand in our real world and in our conversations. And I find that we are not, by and large, being discipled by that love, to love. We are so thoroughly being discipled by fear, and it is that fear that we are being discipled by that keeps us from loving, keeps us from loving our neighbors because we’re afraid of them, keeps us from loving strangers because we’re terribly afraid of them, and certainly our enemies. And I wanted to take a look at what’s happening there, at, you know, the fear that we have as humans. It is not on its own a bad thing. We are going to be afraid. It is a normal and even necessary part of human existence. You know, if I put my hand on a hot stove and I didn’t feel pain, I would be destroyed very quickly. I would make life choices that were destructive. And I would, I could not survive if I did not have that experience of pain, that memory of pain to make me afraid of doing that kind of behavior in the future. This is part of the way God made us, part of the good way that God made us — to be aware of threats and to stay away from them or to plan around them. But I do strongly believe that our fears are being exploited right now for some to gain power at the expense of the most vulnerable. And so, I wanted to look at Jesus’ teaching. This has become a very long answer to your simple question, but I wanted to look at how we cannot claim to be unafraid, but receive Jesus’ teaching, knowing that we are afraid. But we are going to be brave, courageous, and choose to be discipled by love instead of discipled by fear. [00:07:55] Anthony: That’s a simple yet profound word because, you know, we look at Jesus’ teachings, the imperative or maybe the invitation that he gave us most frequently was to not be afraid. [00:08:08] Catherine: Yeah. [00:08:09] Anthony: Fear not. [00:08:09] Catherine: Yeah. [00:08:10] Anthony: You know, even in saying an imperative, it could feel like Jesus is pointing his finger at us, wagging it, going, “don’t you fear.” That’s never the way I’ve read it. It’s like he understands the human condition because, guess what? He’s human. He’s fully God, but fully human. He understands. We have a high priest who gets it. And I think underneath what breaks relationship and ultimately for me, Catherine, that’s what sin is, is fear. Like underneath it all really at the root is fear. And, you know, the good — I was just, as you were talking, I’m thinking about that moment where Jesus is with Simon Peter and they’d been, you know, Peter cast his net and caught all this fish, and he realized he was in the presence of the divine, and he realized who he was, and “get away from me, Lord.” And Jesus says, “… don’t. Don’t be afraid. Let’s go do something together.” And that’s what gives us courage, right? It’s that we’re doing it with Jesus, not in our own strength and might, but because he goes with us, because he has love for the stranger, for the one who considers himself an enemy of God, for one who is the immigrant, you know. This is who God is. And so, we can be strong. And I don’t mean to be responding back to your book. It’s your book, but I’m just thinking, yes, to everything you said, that’s who we should be. Right? [00:09:29] Catherine: Yes, absolutely. This is, and I do like the word invitation because while I, I see it as a command for myself as a follower of Jesus, we do so quickly, again, become afraid even of God. Not the reverent fear of God, but terror and anxiety that we are going to be abandoned, rejected, and then I think we become paralyzed. But in this invitation, in this command is life and life abundant. [00:10:02] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. We’re here to talk about the lectionary text. So, we’re going to move to that. And our first passage of the month is Philippians 3:4b-14. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition (NRSVUE). It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fifth Sunday of Easter Prep / Lent on April 6. … even though I, too, have reason for confidence in the flesh. If anyone else has reason to be confident in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, a member of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law, blameless. 7 Yet whatever gains I had, these I have come to regard as loss because of Christ. 8 More than that, I regard everything as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and I regard them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law but one that comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God based on faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the sharing of his sufferings by becoming like him in his death, 11 if somehow I may attain the resurrection from the dead. 12 Not that I have already obtained this or have already reached the goal, but I press on to lay hold of that for which Christ has laid hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider that I have laid hold of it, but one thing I have laid hold of: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal, toward the prize of the heavenly call of God in Christ Jesus. Whew. There’s a lot in this text. And you know, as I’m rereading it, I often hear people say, Catherine, that they want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection as we see in verse 10. Amen. [00:12:17] Catherine: Yes. [00:12:18] Anthony: Yet I seem to rarely hear people continue the statement by saying, I also want to know the share of his sufferings. You know, is that just me? As we look ahead to Holy Week, how might we become like him in his death, as Paul wrote, awakening us to the power of his resurrection and knowing Christ? [00:12:39] Catherine: Yeah, that is the question I think for us to wrestle with every day. We never, I think, answer that. We’re always, like Paul said, pressing on towards the goal because we haven’t attained it. But to answer your first question, it is not just you. One thing that strikes me so much as I dig into the Bible is that even the disciples who had Jesus in their midst, day after day, night after night, they gravitated to the glory parts of following the Messiah and they somehow just could not wrap their minds around the suffering part. Just recently we were studying the Transfiguration account for Transfiguration Sunday and here they are in this incredible moment on top of the mountain. Jesus’ face and clothing has transformed. Moses and Elijah are there. Somehow, they have been caught up in this, you know, this place where heaven and earth come together in Jesus, which — who has access to that? And they want to stay there. You know, they say, let’s build some tents here. But if we come out a bit from that one passage, at least in the way Luke tells it, right before the mountain and right after the mountain, Jesus is saying to his disciples, you are right that I am the Messiah. But the Messiah is going to suffer, is going to be rejected by all the people in power, is going to be killed, going to be crucified. And if you want to follow me, you have to take up your cross. You have to expect rejection. You have to expect suffering and death. And I think it’s interesting that this story of the transfiguration with all the glory is sandwiched between these two stories of remember, this is a narrative of suffering. This is a life choice of suffering. And even the disciples could not wrap their minds around it. And we are still having that problem. Like you point out, we are still raising our hands to sing of the glory that is ours in Christ and are so taken aback by the suffering that is ours in Christ. And looking at Paul here, I love keeping the storyline of his life, because it is really something. He began as he describes: circumcised on the eighth day, he has been a devout rule follower and a seeker of God. From the beginning, he has all the credentials. He was the persecutor of the church. He was blameless when it comes to righteousness. But how much did his story change when he met Jesus? When he saw the glory of Christ everything changed. And by the end of his life, we see an axe. He’s being driven, dragged from city to city, from court to court. He’s constantly being arrested and brought somewhere on accusation. In just about every conceivable religious and civil jurisdiction. It almost becomes laughable watching as more characters come in and have a different conspiracy theory about what Paul is doing and what it all means. And they have to bring him to a different hearing and a different court. And in every opportunity, he lays out the good news of Jesus. He doesn’t spend any time defending himself or trying to build safety or a future for himself, but to build a future for the kingdom of God. And he is thrilled. He is sitting in prison at the end, writing joyful letters to the people that he loves around the world, because he has forgotten what lies behind and is straining forward to what is ahead. He is obtaining his goal that Christ has laid out for him. And I think taking a look at this passage in Philippians in light of the story arc of Paul’s life, I think we can begin to see that, for ourselves, as we head into Holy week, as you said, there’s not going to probably be a moment where we can hold on to the transcendent power and glory of God that is ours in Christ and hold on to the suffering that is inherent in this life and even more so if we are truly keeping our eyes on Jesus and the work he has given us to do. But we can keep going step by step. And I think reminding each other that, just like the disciples, just like Paul, we do see with our eyes, and we touch with our hands the glory of the risen Christ. And we are on a path of suffering that cannot be escaped, and there are no shortcuts, but we keep our eyes on Jesus. [00:17:47] Anthony: And thanks be to God. As the text goes on to say that we’re trying to take hold of something, but we’re only doing so because Christ has laid hold of us. [00:17:56] Catherine: Yes. Yes. [00:17:58] Anthony: So, he has us in his, his grip of grace, even as we participate in his sufferings. And I don’t know about you, Catherine, but for me I’ve learned so much more about God’s love, his tenderness, his presence through suffering than I ever have through the fluff of life. And that doesn’t mean I’m asking for more suffering, right, at all, but there is good there. And we so quickly label something as bad in our lives, but he intends it for good. Something good and beautiful is emerging from that. And so that kind of leads to the question I wanted to ask you next. And I’m going to invite you to be personal if you’re willing. And, you know, Paul wrote about, regarding everything is lost because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ. Have you experienced loss of something that at the time it just felt, and maybe you labeled it as bad and just something, ah, gut wrenching, but out of that came this knowing of Christ more intimately and in such a way that you look back on it somehow, some way, mysteriously, with joy? [00:19:14] Catherine: Yes. I want to begin by saying what you said, you know — we don’t ask for suffering. I don’t think we are asked to ask for it. But it comes to us, and I think the posture with which we receive it is what makes the difference. Suffering can break us, make us bitter and brittle, or it can be the soil in which God plants his seeds, I think, in the soil of the death of our lives. The personal question? I actually have been thinking about this quite a lot recently because I have a book coming out this coming June called Mid Faith Crisis . And in this book, I tell more personal stories than I’ve maybe told in the past about my own life, my own faith, my own journey with God. And I do tell quite a few stories of suffering and loss there because I want to be honest about the difficulties that we face in life and we face in faith, but while never believing that God has abandoned me. One of the primary stories that I tell is of when I was very young. I was 12 years old. And, out of a set of circumstances that is definitely difficult to summarize briefly here, my family was literally asked to leave town. So it was, my dad was a pastor and the church that he pastored preferred for us to kind of disappear. So, we were given a very short period of time in order to disappear and were not able to really have any support as we went to restabilize us and into our future or to retain any relationships going forward. And so, in a very real way, I lost everything at that time. I lost everyone I had known, everyone that I would have considered a community. Not just as loss, but as rejection. And I lost everything that I had on a material level as well. But even on an identity level. When the community that formed you chooses not to know you or give access to themselves to you, then it’s — I don’t think I could explain the depth of that loss on an identity level. So, I was 12, obviously not at fault in any way. And that has been, I think, the driving story of my life for a long time in a way that was painful and death. But as the decades have turned and time has gone by, I have seen God bring new life from that death. And I have seen that all the most beautiful and strong parts of my life are directly connected to that, to the deep gash of pain and death that that situation was. And not in a way that could be turned into a formula, not in a way that would cause me to look at someone else in pain and say, “Oh, yes, you know, this is all for God’s glory and goodness.” Because pain is painful, and suffering is suffering. But as I wrote about in another book, some of the most beautiful flowers that we can find on this planet come in the desert after a long, long, long wait. All that I grow in my garden comes from the compost that is the death of last season’s life. And I have found without a doubt that the greatest deaths in my life, the deepest valleys of suffering have been where in time, and not with ease and not with silver linings, but with deep journeying and wrestling, God has brought new life most vividly, most beautifully, most strongly in the areas of my greatest loss. And so, I do say with Paul, that I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection. And while I don’t ask for more suffering, I do acknowledge that becoming like him in his death, we do somehow attain the resurrection from the dead. [00:24:00] Anthony: So beautifully stated, and I’m humbled that you would share that with us, Katherine. And I’m just trying to imagine being 12 years old, which is already a difficult time of transition … [00:24:12] Catherine: Yeah. [00:24:13] Anthony: … between the teen and finding who you are and exploring identity and to have all that taken away. And yet you know, this is one of those things when you talk with people about loss and suffering, it’s not like you’re ever happy it’s happened to them. But yet, you’re you, and that was very formative, it sounds like to me. And so, you can call it joy because the Christian life is death and resurrection and those deaths, it’s like every day there are tiny deaths and then there are deaths that we put in books because they were so significant to our life. But how you praise God that he, his resurrection is real. Yeah. And your life speaks as a testimony to that reality. [00:25:06] Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. God’s goodness I think becomes evident when we find that somehow, we have persevered, and we have found love, and we have found goodness even in the valley of the shadow of death. [00:25:25] Anthony: Our next passage of the month is Philippians 2:5–11. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for Liturgy of the Passion, April 13. Catherine, we’d be grateful if you’d read it for us, please. [00:25:38] Catherine: I would love to. Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, assuming human likeness. And being found in appearance as a human, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God exalted him even more highly and gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that at the name given to Jesus every knee should bend, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. [00:26:29] Anthony: What a Christological hymn. And I’m so thankful that this particular pericope shows up once if not twice every year in the lectionary cycle. Because, man, we have to keep coming back to it and singing this song. [00:26:43] Catherine: Yes. [00:26:43] Anthony: And the Christology is breathtaking. And so, speaking of understanding Christ, what does this passage reveal about the God we see in Jesus Christ, Catherine? [00:26:56] Catherine: Well, Anthony, I’m so glad you asked that. This is possibly my favorite question. Come on. This is what the disciples had such a hard time grasping, as we saw earlier, and it is what we have such a hard time grasping today, and it is the core of the good news. One thing we maybe have a hard time seeing from our modern vantage point is that in Paul’s Greco Roman culture, hymns like these were written and sung to express praise and allegiance to a human man who had risen to the status of a god, such as the emperor. The hymn would tell of his mighty deeds, status, and the power he obtained, the names he had won for himself. And this hymn does that, but with a profound and powerful difference. All the values are upside down. Everything here is opposite. It’s like a satire. Rather than a man becoming god, we have god becoming man. Rather than this man accumulating power and status, Jesus is divesting himself of these things, even though they are rightfully his. Rather than an account of his mighty deeds, Jesus becomes a servant, taking the lowest position, even as a slave, performing deeds of obedience, even obedience in death. Even the most publicly humiliating death is set aside for the lowliest slaves. To the Roman world, this would have been the opposite of praiseworthy, the opposite of what the gods or even men would do. And yet Paul declares, this is how Jesus won for himself a name. And not just any name. God is exalting Jesus to the highest place. It gives him the name that is above every other name, so that every knee will bow, that every voice agree together that Jesus is Lord. And Paul says that this is to God’s glory. And if this is God’s glory, we need to take a second look at who God is. For this God is nothing like we expected or have seen before. This hymn about Jesus is a hymn about God and God’s character and it is mind blowing, life changing, world changing. Paul looks to Jesus, who holds eternal equality with God, and describes what he did with his position and power. And here’s where our attention is grabbed. We’re used to people with power and position using it to defend what they have and gaining more. If there’s anyone in the universe who could be excused for doing this, it would be God. But this is the opposite of what Jesus does. God does not forcefully seize or violently defend his status. God does not grasp power. God divests himself of power. It’s worth sitting with this for a moment, because we live in a world where might makes right, where politicians and CEOs and even pastors are often known for forcefully seizing or violently defending their status, their wealth, their position. And God does not do this. I’m not sure that we can wrap our minds around what an enormous statement this is. God, who rightfully has all power and authority, still does not seize what is rightfully his. And he does not use his power against us. Even in leaving behind his heavenly status, Jesus could have become an earthly king, a wealthy aristocrat, or a powerful influencer. But God came low, not just a little bit, he went all the way. Jesus divested himself, became a human, and took the form of a slave, humbled to the lowest position, becoming obedient not only to incarnation, but to death. And not just any death, not a death of satisfying old age. God submitted himself to the most publicly humiliating death known at that time, which was crucifixion. It’s as if God is using the most exaggerated and direct image possible to say what the world values and what the world thinks is godliness is dangerous and wrong. Let me show you vividly just how different I am than you think I am. In the Roman world, similar to now, the emperor values were strong on masculine might and power and status. There was no virtue at all in being humble or submissive or weak. The gods clearly demonstrated their favor through gifts of power and strength and even violence. Death was the linchpin of weakness and humiliation. To be killed as a criminal at the hands of the empire through the public torture crucifixion — there literally could be no greater humiliation. And therefore, there could not be anything further from godliness. For in their eyes, godliness was masculine, powerful, violent, and victorious. But God says no. God says, I disagree. And then God shows us what he does value, what is good and right in God’s eyes. And he shows us vividly. God’s response to Jesus’ utter and public humiliation, from deity to human, from power to slave, from heaven to earth, from life to death, from victory to defeat, from glory to humiliation, was not to turn his back on Jesus, but to exalt Jesus, to honor and endorse Jesus, to give to Jesus the highest name in all the earth and above the earth and below the earth. God speaks definitively in Jesus and says, “This is who I am, and this is what goodness looks like.” [00:32:50] Anthony: Wow, that’s … just what do you say? But wow, it is so utterly not what you expect. And so, we can rightly say with God, expect the unexpected. And, you know, he does — you talked about him divesting a power — he also reframes what real power looks like. It looks like cruciform love. It looks like laying down your life for the sake of the other, which is again, utterly unexpected. Yes. And that brings us to this kind of concept of kenosis , of self-emptying, which was unexpected, that we read in verse seven. And we know that by the Spirit. As disciples, followers of Jesus, we want to become more Christlike in our self-emptying. So, teach us about this nature we see in Christ and, how do we get practical with that or embrace ways of self-emptying in our own lives? [00:33:46] Catherine: Yeah. Well, as I mentioned, these sorts of hymns were written at that time to praise and deify a man who had, according to the emperor and the empire’s values, achieved God status and a name for himself through great and powerful deeds. So, to the Philippians who first read this, these verses would sound like satire, very poignant satire for everything. All the structure is in place for the hymn, but everything is so very upside down. Instead of a man becoming God, Paul is singing of a God becoming man. Instead of earning a name and a place of status through powerful deeds, Jesus is earning the very highest name through service, humiliation, through death. And the contrast between what was expected and what was sung would have been scandalous. And as we bring it down to us here today, 2,000 years later, what strikes me is how very similar a situation we’re in. We are still surrounded by an empire and empire values that insist that we should hold on to what’s ours, that we should grasp for more, that we should be ready to fight for our rights. And we still platform powerful men who are willing and able to climb on the backs of the vulnerable all the way to the top. And we are still harmed by those who use God and goodness to seize for themselves or to defend themselves. So, I opened a discussion recently on social media to ask friends of mine to describe a time, either personally and recently, or historically, something they’d read when someone used the name of God or Christ to grasp power or privilege to the detriment of others. And you won’t be surprised that the responses just poured in. Some people mentioned notorious historical figures who destroyed countless lives and impacted generations out of their greed and evil but used God’s name. And many, many more people named folks closer to home, like relatives, community members, church leaders, community leaders, who genuinely believed that God’s call on their lives was to grasp and to take, to enforce, to hold authority, rather than to empty themselves, to become a servant, to serve, to give, to pour out, to live out of compassion, that fearlessness, that love. But the Christian way of life and the Christian community cannot look like the empire. We are called, and we have accepted the call, to empty ourselves, and we trust that as we follow Jesus, that God will lift us up to that resurrection that Paul was talking about earlier. [00:36:27] Anthony: Yeah. I often hear it referred to as the upside down kingdom because it doesn’t look like empire of the day. But I had a friend recently say, no, that’s not right. It’s the right side up kingdom because it’s what true reality looks like. What we’re doing here is upside down. It is not kingdom principle, kingdom ethic. And so, I think that dude does truly speak to … there are practical ways … I remember Eugene Peterson saying resurrection is not just about the future tense and what is to come. It is the way that I live my life in the here and now — at a particular place with a particular people. Is the kingdom emerging in my midst? And that’s what we want to participate in, because guess what? This is what Christ is doing unexpectedly. This is what he’s doing. [00:37:18] Catherine: I love that Eugene Peterson talks about, like this time in this place, because I do think we get overwhelmed by all that’s going wrong across the globe. But we are called to love our neighbors and to build community and to impact the city that we live in. And I think part of where this becomes practical, where we live, this right size kingdom, is right here on the ground where we are. And I think that can be grounding for us to remember that the principalities and powers of this world are beyond what you and I can impact, although we know that Jesus, the Spirit, lives in us, we have already overcome. We can seek justice and mercy and live humbly and love our neighbors with compassion, with hospitality, in a very practical, very local, very grounded and rooted way. And I think that both, it gives us hope and gives us next steps. And I find that to be helpful. [00:38:22] Anthony: Yes. Very helpful. I’m so glad you said that. You know, there was this term in business years ago about thinking globally but acting locally and they called it glocal. And, ultimately, it’s the gospel. It’s like we think in big picture ways, but how does that get lived out? You know, when we think of neighbor, what about the person that’s just sleeping 40 feet away from me in the next house or the next apartment or whatever. You know, how am I loving them? Yes. It gets very practical then. Let’s pivot to our next pericope of the month. It’s John 20:1–8. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Easter Resurrection of the Lord, April 20. And it reads: Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene came to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the tomb. 2 So she ran and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” 3 Then Peter and the other disciple set out and went toward the tomb. 4 The two were running together, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5 He bent down to look in and saw the linen wrappings lying there, but he did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen wrappings lying there, 7 and the cloth that had been on Jesus’s head, not lying with the linen wrappings but rolled up in a place by itself. 8 Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed, 9 for as yet they did not understand the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 10 Then the disciples returned to their homes. 11 But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb, 12 and she saw two angels in white sitting where the body of Jesus had been lying, one at the head and the other at the feet. 13 They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.” 14 When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?” Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.” 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary!” She turned and said to him in Hebrew, “Rabbouni!” (which means Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, “Do not touch me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’” 18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and she told them that he had said these things to her. The resurrection of Jesus changes everything. And I know that’s just a massive understatement. And sometimes it’s difficult to put the Easter celebration into words. Preachers, writers, sages have attempted to herald the profundity of the resurrection. So, as an author, a herald of the gospel, I’d like to give you the floor to make your attempt of why the bodily resurrection matters. [00:41:43] Catherine: Well, like you said, what words, what human words could ever express this? It’s like the sun. You know, we live by its light, but we can’t look at it. We can’t touch it. I think we can continue to describe all the effects and all of the implications and all of the new life that comes from the resurrection, but I don’t know that we can ever find the words to describe, or even understand that moment, that impact itself. But the resurrection does change everything. Like we’ve looked at several times today already, before the resurrection, while Jesus was in their physical midst, and they could touch him, and they slept back to back with him, and they walked side by side with him, and they ate with him every day, they were afraid and confused, and profoundly so, arguing about who was going to be greater in the kingdom, and running away at the first sign of danger. And in the same ways that we are ourselves confused and afraid, but deeply and profoundly missing the point, even though Jesus was right there. But after the resurrection, something truly changed. They became bold, joyful. They banded together. They changed the world. And they did, as we’ve looked, they joined Jesus in his resurrection, but also in his suffering. Nothing became easy for them after the resurrection. It became much harder. But they were somehow empowered, they were fearless, they became bold and joyful, and they took the world by storm. So, what it is exactly that changed in them when they saw the risen Jesus and were filled by the Holy Spirit? Only God, I think, knows. But we have the gospel today because the impact that it made in them was so profound. I actually opened my book — that book Fearing Bravely that we talked about before — I actually opened it with a retelling of this story of Mary at the tomb and how stunning and shocked she was, how she saw Jesus and he said her name and she ran to tell his friends. But then I also shift the story to describe them later that day. They are huddled in an empty room and at the top of a building with the door locked and they are, they don’t know what’s going on. Their friend, their teacher, their rabbi, the man they were publicly associated with among a huge crowd has been violently and publicly executed by the state, and of course they are afraid. But now also there is this word that he’s alive, and I’m sure that was also even more terrifying. And yet suddenly, Jesus is there. It doesn’t say Jesus knocked on the door or turned the handle. We know the door was locked. It just says, and then Jesus was with them. And after that is when everything changes. And I think partially bodily resurrection matters because when we grasp — if we can grasp — that we are freed from the fear of death, that the God we know in Jesus, this God of compassion and justice and mercy is the one who is the Alpha and the Omega, who holds the keys to life and death, who has opened a path to resurrection, then a whole world of opportunities opens up for us. We’re free to love our neighbors as ourselves, as we talked about. We’re free to care for strangers around us, to love even our enemies, even if it’s costly, even if it’s sacrificial, even if it’s dangerous. Because if God has defeated death, if God has promised to be with us with this love that surpasses knowledge and this peace that passes all understanding, if this God has promised to be with us, not only every day of our lives, but even as we walk to and through and out of death, then what could possibly stop us from living this life of love? I think it’s as the Holy Spirit convicts us and convinces us of this reality that we are empowered like the disciples to go out and love with God’s love and confront the forces of evil with goodness, because what could possibly harm us if God’s thread, if God’s hand will be holding us even in the dark. [00:46:33] Anthony: Yes. We look at this passage, and Mary Magdalene is — of course, Christ is central — but Mary is enormous, and we read in other resurrection texts about the other women being the first evangelists telling the story of the risen Lord. What can we learn about Mary in terms of sharing good news of the risen and ascended Lord? [00:46:56] Catherine: Well, I love the way you’ve worded that because, you say, what can we learn from Mary? We learn literally everything from Mary. We know about the good news of the risen Lord because of Mary. And I assume that if she had become bashful and afraid and run off and hidden, Jesus would have found another way to communicate with his friends and his followers. We do know because of Mary, and I think we see in her story the excitement, the … you know. I described earlier the resurrection as absolutely world changing, life changing, altering in every way. It helps us to live in that right-sided-up kingdom because we no longer have to fear the earthly kingdoms. We can now keep our eyes only on Jesus who has defeated death. And so, there’s excitement there. This is the glass more than half full, you know, like we don’t need to get bogged down by all of the troubles that do come hand in hand with this story, you know, again, like the followers of Jesus were dogged and sought after by everyone who held power for the whole rest of their lives, which included suffering and imprisonment and death. But they didn’t even care. They counted it all loss for the sake of Jesus. And we see that first in Mary, who has heard the voice of the Lord that she intimately knows, and she heard him say her name, and that was enough for her. She couldn’t understand the theology of it, or the implications of it, or the 2, 000 years of discussing it, but she knew that he was alive. And she was filled with excitement and courage, and she ran forth and shared that exciting news with those she loved. And I think that’s what we learned from her. [00:48:54] Anthony: Yeah. She’s such a great model for this. Yeah. Jesus himself said before he ascended in Acts 1:8, that when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, the Spirit will come in power, and you’ll be my witnesses. You’ll tell the story, you’ll lay down your life — which is what that word in the Greek means — that it’s almost like Mary couldn’t help it. Yeah, she was probably fearing bravely, you know, that’s, I mean, you’re just in awe that this Lord has risen and it’s scary and you don’t know what comes next, but courageously you go, and you tell people. [00:49:31] Catherine: Yes. [00:49:32] Anthony: This is really, really good news. [00:49:34] Catherine: Yes. Amazing. [00:49:40] Anthony: We’re in the homestretch here. The final pericope of the month comes to us from Revelation 1:4–8. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday in Easter, which is April 27. Catherine, read it for us, please. [00:49:56] Catherine: John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests serving his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Look! He is coming with the clouds; every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all the tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. So it is to be. Amen. 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty. [00:50:52] Anthony: You mentioned earlier in the podcast that you’re a pastoral intern and working in a local church and proclaiming the word of God there. So, if you were preaching to your congregation, what would be the focus of that proclamation? Preach preacher. Let’s hear it. [00:51:08] Catherine: Okay. Well, wow. This. What a powerful text. It preaches itself. I’m tempted to just come up to the virtual pulpit and read this out and say, this is the word of the Lord and sit back down. These are powerful words from the Spirit to John, to the churches, and to us. And I love how it is a capstone of everything we’ve talked about today, that it is Jesus who is the name above all names. It is in Jesus that we have, we see dominion forever and ever. He is the King over all the kings. He is the Lord over all the lords. And we are his kingdom. We are the priests serving him. To him be glory and dominion forever and ever. And he is coming. He is alive, as we learned from Mary. What I love in these opening words in John’s letter to the churches, is that the focus is razor sharp on Jesus — not Jesus who lived for 30 years and is dead, but the Jesus who was from all times, and is, he is alive today, and he is to come. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, and the Almighty. If all power and dominion is given to Jesus, who has always been and will always be, then again, what do we have to fear? We can go forward joyfully proclaiming the resurrection, joyfully proclaiming that God, and goodness, and God’s view of the use of power is absolutely opposite of everything the world has to say. And we can live lives of love and compassion. We can confront evil and overcome evil with goodness because we have the Spirit from Jesus, who is the almighty and everlasting. So, I would, I would preach to my listeners on this podcast or to those sitting in the congregation in front of me and to my teenagers as I hold their hands on these days that can be frightening and dark, scary. We don’t know what’s happening. We don’t need to wait for an earthly kingdom or a community that is amenable to these ideas, to the way of compassion, to the way of sacrificial love. We don’t need to wait for a society that makes us feel safe before we love, because even though Jesus and his followers were killed by those who held power in their society, they were filled with joy. They have been — Jesus was seated at the right hand of the Father — and we believe that his followers have simply preceded us into the kingdom, and that he is the Alpha and the Omega. We have known, we have seen with our eyes, and we have touched with our hands, that there is no time or place where Jesus is absent. God has given his endorsement solidly in Jesus. From everything that has happened, from what we are going through right now, and all that lies ahead, we keep our eyes on Jesus. Hallelujah. [00:54:35] Anthony: Hallelujah, amen and amen. That word was all eat up with hope, if I can say it that way. Catherine: Yeah, yeah. [00:54:42] Anthony: And that’s, I mean, really isn’t that what we’re proclaiming — hope — and hope that does not disappoint, hope that doesn’t put us to shame, hope that doesn’t leave us at the altar alone and afraid, hope that is grounded in the person of Jesus who is our crown of glory? Hallelujah. Praise him. And this time went by quickly. Catherine, I’m so delighted you would join us. It’s wonderful to meet you and thank you for sharing the obvious gifts that God has given to you to articulate the good news of who Jesus Christ is. So, thank you for being with us. [00:55:19] Catherine: Well, I’m delighted that you invited me. I’m glad to meet you and glad to meet all of you listening. [00:55:25] Anthony: Yeah. And what we’ll do, friends, for those of you who are listening, we’ll put the links to Catherine’s books in the show notes so you can go and grab them for yourself and read them. I’m sure there are going to be many that do so. And thank you for supporting her as she supports her family and ministry in her context. And friends, I want to leave you with an encouraging word from Richard Hayes, the late professor in my backyard at Duke Divinity here in Durham, North Carolina. He said, the church community in its corporate life is called to embody an alternative order that stands as a sign of God’s redemptive purposes in the world. So, I invite you, I think with the authority of Christ, to embody that alternative order, to be a culture of the kingdom that reveals the goodness of God, Jesus Christ. I want to thank the team of people that helped make this podcast possible, Reuel Enerio, Elizabeth Mullins, and Michelle Hartman. We do it as a team and it’s such a joy to have friends and colleagues that you love and like to be able to do work with. So, with that, we say thank you to them. And Catherine, it is our order here at Gospel Reverb, it’s our tradition to end with prayer. So, would you say a word of prayer for us? [00:56:40] Catherine: I would be honored to. Heavenly Father, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we lift up our arms in joyful worship and gratitude that you are the one who was, and is, and is to com, that you have gone to such great lengths to communicate to us so vividly that you are not one who abuses power, but one who uses all that you have towards compassion, towards shalom , that you are making all things new, that your love had the first word, remains with us still today, and will have the final word. We submit ourselves to you and to your kingdom. We look for your will and your presence in our lives today. And I pray for all those listening. I pray that they would feel your light on their face, that they would feel your hand on their back, that they would know your presence, and your love that surpasses knowledge, and your peace that passes all understanding. And I pray all this in Jesus’ name. Amen. [00:57:46] Anthony: Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb . If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you! The post Catherine McNiel—Year C Easter Prep 5, Passion, Easter 1-2 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources .…

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Cathy Deddo—Year C Transfiguration, Easter Prep 1–4 1:12:59

19 weeks ago1:12:59

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Cathy Deddo—Year C Transfiguration, Easter Prep 1–4 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode . Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb . Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ centered and Trinitarian view. I’m your host Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Cathy Deddo. Cathy is a Bible teacher speaker and retreat leader. In the past, she has worked on campus staff at InterVarsity Christian Fellowship teaching students at Virginia University and Claremont Colleges in California. She is the author of The Letter of James , a Bible study commentary and guide, and she earned a master’s degree in theology from Fuller Theological Seminary. Cathy, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on the pod, we’d like to get to know you a little bit, your story, your backstory, and how you’re participating with the Lord these days. [00:01:31] Cathy: Okay. Well, you gave some good information about my life in the past. I guess the best thing to say is that my husband, Gary, and I have made a big change in our lives in the last two years. We moved from Illinois, which was our home for 23 years, and came out here to Pennsylvania to live near two of our daughters and their families. And I was doing a lot of Bible studies. I was doing some online Bible studies for Grace Communion International and others. But actually, I took a job at a school. it’s a collaborative school that meets two times a week, and then they have homeschool assignments for the other three. And I’ve been working there for the last two years and this year I am creating and teaching a survey of the Old Testament for the middle schoolers. So that’s a big shift for me to be now ministering primarily with children instead of adults. The other big part of my life is being a grandmother. I have six grandkids here in the area and then we’re waiting for our seventh here, but our tenth overall to come in a couple of months. My youngest daughter is having her second child and that has just been the greatest joy of my life. So having a chance to pour into our grandkids is a great privilege. [00:03:12] Anthony: Do you have a favorite grandchild? Nope. [00:03:18] Cathy: No. They’re so unique. When you’re with the one you’re with, they’re your favorite. But then when you’re with the next one, they are. Because they’re all just incredibly unique and such a sign of God’s grace in this world that He keeps bringing new life into this broken world. It’s really amazing. [00:03:42] Anthony: It is amazing, and I only have one grandchild. And so, she is my favorite. It’s easy to say that. [00:03:50] Cathy: Yeah, that’s right, just don’t say it to her. [00:03:54] Anthony: That’s right. Well, we have the challenge, Cathy, of trying to get through five this month. So, we’re going to get right into it. And I’m anxious to hear what the Lord has to say. So here we go. Our first pericope of the month is 2 Corinthians 3:12-4:2. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Transfiguration Sunday on March 2. Since, then, we have such a hope, we act with complete frankness, 13 not like Moses, who put a veil over his face to keep the people of Israel from gazing at the end of the glory that was being set aside. 14 But their minds were hardened. Indeed, to this very day, when they hear the reading of the old covenant, the same veil is still there; it is not unveiled since in Christ it is set aside. 15 Indeed, to this very day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their minds, 16 but when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And all of us, with unveiled faces, seeing the glory of the Lord as though reflected in a mirror, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another, for this comes from the Lord, the Spirit. 4 Therefore, since it is by God’s mercy that we are engaged in this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 We have renounced the shameful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to falsify God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we commend ourselves to the conscience of everyone in the sight of God. Cathy, Paul writes about having quote unquote, such a hope, which leads to complete frankness. Help us understand what Paul is saying here. [00:05:55] Cathy: I will try. So basically, what is the hope we have that leads to being bold or frank? That is being open and confident in the gospel. This is really the approach I took here. So, from what I can gather in studying the letters to the Corinthian Christians, some in the church, and maybe many, are struggling with suffering, which is tempting them to kind of shrink back, especially suffering that stems from being followers of Jesus. Corinth, as you probably know, is a very pagan and promiscuous city, very prosperous, at least for some. And a lot of people were offended by the gospel message, and they rejected it. Many wanted to listen to messages involving meaningless speculations. Most wanted to have reaffirmed to them what they already believed and practiced. There may have been a hope that being a follower of Jesus would also involve less trials, less difficulty in life in general. But those who became worshippers of the true Creator and Redeemer God found themselves actually outcasts of much of the Corinthian culture, society, business. And [they] were regularly treated unfairly, were being persecuted. Maybe today we’d say they were marginalized. In addition, part of what Paul is dealing with is that there were false teachers creeping into the church, and they were offering a more attractive message, one that promised to make them more powerful, respectable, or maybe to suffer less. And these false teachers used underhanded or manipulative methods to gain a following, which he’s sort of alluding to at the end of the passage. They offered ideologies or easy practices that sounded like what people might want to hear. So, all these problems tempted the Christians to be less confident or bold in living out of their relationship with Christ. And the fact that they were tempted in this way is telling Paul something. Their problem is they don’t fully understand or remember the wonderful, life transforming work of God’s love that Jesus accomplished for them. They don’t grasp the hope they have in Christ. The easy, agreeable, and pleasing messages of the false teachers are tempting the believers to misplace their hope. Well, maybe you could say, to connect it to the passage some more, that puts a veil over their hearts. Because they’re placing it in formulas for success and security, pathways to respectability in society here and now, rather than the radical and all-encompassing eternal hope that God has for us in Jesus. They were tempted to trade in their true hope for a new heaven and earth where all things will be finally made right and new. And I would say that this then was leading them to be distracted each day in their lives now from receiving and living in a share of the real life — God’s kind of life that he was offering them. So one of the places that Paul is speaking about this greater amazing hope that begins this passage is just a few verses after this passage in 4:17. He speaks of the painful trials he has been going through as slight and momentary compared to the eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison that is being prepared for him and for us as well. He spoke of these trials at the beginning of the letter. You’re familiar with the beginning of it. He said there that these trials were so severe that he and his companions were despairing of life itself. But here he proclaims that the living God will bring good out of his suffering and ours in such a way that we can look at our trials, no matter how big or small they are, as slight and momentary. As Paul has spoken of his ministry and his sufferings so far in this letter up to this point, he does so to remind them of the absolute surpassing worth of the gospel that he had already preached to them, and they had received. And so now he says, Since then, we have such a hope, we act with complete frankness, or as this is translated in the ESV, we are very bold. This word means confidence, not being ashamed. And later in the passage that you just read, in verse 1 of chapter 4, Paul says, because this is our ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. We do not become weary or saint. The life lived in Jesus is one of confidence and freedom in him and not becoming weary. How can that be? Because it seems to me that we often do become weary, and we become tempted to hedge on proclaiming the whole gospel and forget its goodness and hope of glory that is ours in Christ. How do we live in this hope? Paul speaks here of living with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord. We are to continually look away from ourselves to Jesus. We are to take real time to focus again and again on him, to hear from him and his Word, to pray as Paul speaks in other places, continually. And I think that when we shrink back or grow weary, it’s because, honestly, we’ve dropped our focus away from the living, present Jesus. And we begin looking at ourselves, our lives, our ministries, our circumstances, which veils our vision, veils our heart. We cannot see them rightly, these various things we’re dealing with right now, except through him, as we anticipate his involvement, his oversight, his presence and purpose being worked out in them to his glory and to our good. We can become tempted to evaluate Jesus’ presence and work in our lives through the lens of our feelings or circumstances. And I think this is part of what is going on for them. We can become tempted to add to the gospel other keys or principles or formulas that we can depend on out of fear rather than living in the growing and deepening relationship that he wants to give us because we wonder if that’s going to be sufficient for us in this broken world. Yeah, we need Jesus. But we start thinking that we need Jesus plus, plus counting on something else that we start to regard as essential. But he’s basically saying, when we do this, we have trouble seeing Jesus for who he really is. When we are seeing him through our own lens of our issues and our situation, we kind of lose track of who Jesus is. We need to turn it around and behold him. And then through looking at him, we can look at our lives. This is what can help us continue to be bold and confident in the whole gospel, in this hope. Paul is correcting that false and underlining view of the sufficiency of Christ. He’s indicating that what is central and essential in our lives is beholding Jesus. Beholding is a continuing action here. It’s not something we do once. We turn again and again to Jesus, coming again under his good and life giving rule and reign, being arrested again by our vision and understanding of who he is, so that we can freely and joyfully, with frankness, live according to his will and ways, without compromise. Our confidence is never in ourselves, our doctrines, our relationships, even our understanding. We cannot be self-sufficient or self-justifying. It makes us blind. The living God through Jesus Christ and by the Holy Spirit is the source and measure of all life, all goodness, all truth, all beauty. This is true for all of us. So, we live out of our trust of and hope in all of who this Jesus is. The same yesterday today and tomorrow. That’s their hope. That’s the hope that enables us to be bold. And here is the really wonderful point. I love this. God will transform us as we fix our eyes on Jesus, not on ourselves. As we see and know him, as he is made known in scripture, we are led to repent and turn to him again. Every time he helps us to see our trust has drifted to other things rather than himself. I think we know that we can’t transform ourselves. I haven’t succeeded so far. Paul does not transform himself. Paul knows this, and he lives by that reality in Christ. And this is why, at the beginning of the letter, he can praise the God of comfort, even in his deepest sufferings. This is why he can rejoice in that glory that awaits him, and all those who put their trust in him, and even the whole creation. This is why he speaks boldly. And this is why we can. [00:15:46] Anthony: You know, even though 2 Corinthians 3 wasn’t written to us, it certainly, I think we can rightly say, was written for us. If the people of Corinth were distracted, oh my, we are distracted people. We are deluged by information every day, more than we know what to do with. And so, it is so easy to become distracted. And this is one of the reasons why the repeated coming to Scripture is so important. Because when we come to Scripture, we once again get glimpses, revelation about the triune God. And we do this by the Spirit. And so, I’m going to ask you and invite you, Cathy, to share with us, what does this passage tell us about the God revealed in Jesus Christ? [00:16:33] Cathy: Well, I think the most amazing thing that it tells me is that he desires a face to face, deeply personal communion. I don’t think I’ve ever stopped being amazed by that. He wants us, he wants relationship with us, and he has done everything necessary to woo us and to grow us up in him. And he is glorified, not when we try to do stuff for him all the time, but when we trust him to transform us and to enable us to share in his glory. I just can’t get over him being a God like that. He does not shame us, but he seeks to lift us up to share in his own life. That is the heart of who he is. [00:17:21] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. Well, we need to move on to our second passage of the month. It is Romans 10:8b-13. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the first Sunday of Easter Prep (Lent) on March 9. Cathy, would you read it for us, please? [00:17:42] Cathy: Sure. But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim), 9 because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For one believes with the heart, leading to righteousness, and one confesses with the mouth, leading to salvation. 11 The scripture says, “No one who believes in him will be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” [00:18:32] Anthony: Amen. If you were heralding this passage to a congregation, maybe your congregation of middle schoolers or your grandchildren, what would be the focus of the proclamation? [00:18:43] Cathy: In looking at the whole chapter Paul is talking in this section, he’s been talking about this for the chapter, about righteousness. And what is righteousness? Well, righteousness fundamentally means right relationship. What does it mean to live in right relationship with the God who created all things? And so, in right relationship with each other and with all of creation, what does it mean to live according to the grain of reality? To live in a way that fits with the truth about life. That’s what righteousness is all about. That’s what he’s been dealing with here. So, at the beginning of the chapter, Paul talked about the error of believing that righteousness is attained by our own efforts to be righteous. In other words, trusting that if I work hard enough or in certain ways, I can, quote, make the grade, so to speak. I will have done enough to keep God happy or to gain a righteous reputation, whatever it is I’m looking for. In this section that I’m at, the beginning of the chapter, he’s referring primarily to those who were seeking passionately to become righteous by following the law of Moses. But the truth is we can all be tempted at times to rely on our own efforts to show God or others how righteous we are. And this effort can come out in a variety of ways. Paul is telling us here that Jesus is the one and only Lord of all. So, living in right relationship with God simply must be shaped by this reality — by who he really is. And who we really are in light of him. So, in verse 9, he says, “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. And believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” He reasons in the next verse that this is so because one believes with the heart leading to righteousness and one confesses with the mouth leading to salvation. So, I would basically want [our] focus right here to be righteous. To live in right relationship with the God, who created us and redeemed us for himself, is to acknowledge that Jesus is our Lord and God. And to acknowledge it with our whole being. He is the one who rightly has total authority over us. And so, we can gladly trust him. To confess is to say with or to agree with. So, when we confess, we are affirming with conviction the truth that Jesus alone is Lord of all. Paul goes on to say exactly that in verse 12 when he talks about how there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile because the same Lord is Lord of all. And this simple phrase, “Jesus Christ is Lord,” was the first creed of the church. So, we take some time to unpack this point he’s making here. When we affirm that Jesus’ lordship is the actual reality of all things, then we are also turning away from any and all other lords. We are denying lordship to anyone or anything else, even our own efforts to be righteous. We recognize Jesus Christ only, exclusively as Lord and God. Don’t we live in a world full of other things that cry out to be lord? Things that tell us that we need to put our trust in them to tell us who we really are and how to live. They promise to give us identity, security, meaning, purpose, hope, but all these other potential lords are idols. Again, including our own efforts to be righteous because they’re false. All their promises are false and will betray us if we put our trust in them. There really is only one true Lord. Paul fills out, fills out the meaning of confessing with our mouths that “Jesus is Lord,” by saying that we’re also to trust with our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead in order to receive the salvation that God has wrought for us in Christ. So, when Paul speaks of the heart, he’s really talking about, as I’m sure you know, our whole being, our whole selves. So, what he’s saying is, what I confess with my mouth, I want to trust with my whole being. And what we trust in with our whole being, we are outwardly confessing. We outwardly affirm to ourselves and to others who is truly Lord. We say our amen to what is true about Jesus Christ. And in that way, we are whole or wholly surrendered to Jesus. St. Augustine said that our hearts are idol makers. We are often tempted to put something else in that place of lordship in our lives. As I was thinking about this, I guess in some ways I would say that most of our idols, if not all, fall into two basic categories. The first one is the idol of our hopes for various things in this life, or our plans, agendas. These things can become lord, and they will lead us to put our trust in whatever we think will help us to realize those hopes. And secondly, I think really even our fears can become our idols. They can reside in the center of our lives, so they prioritize, shape, and control our decisions, our actions, and our reactions. And as I said, the beginning of the chapter where he’s talking about trying to create your own righteousness, ultimately an idol, as we’ll see as we go on, Paul is saying that believing, receiving, acting on, and confirming the truth that Jesus is Lord means we turn away from all these other false lords. When we seek to grow out of trust in who he is, what he has done, is doing, is continuing to do, will do, not only for us, but in the world as its Lord and Savior. And this involves a daily dying to ourselves and turning to the one who made us and knows us so much better than we know ourselves. It involves a living relationship with the one who’s Lord. I know I’m kind of hammering on this, but I think sometimes we start thinking that really, we are trying to have our efforts in something else than continually trusting in him, turning away from other things. Like one of the things I wanted to say, I’ve been praying for a lot of really heavy duty things recently, a lot of things happening in the world in our nation that I find very distressing. But what helps me to pray is I start each time by acknowledging this wonderful truth again that Jesus, the one who is present with me in my prayers is the Lord of all, including time and space. So, this brings me back to Paul’s words at the beginning of the chapter on righteousness with God and others to attain by our own efforts. He says in verse 3 — this is such an interesting point to me — he says those who are seeking to establish their own righteousness did not submit to God’s righteousness. So, it’s interesting to realize that sometimes we can get so caught up in serving the Lord to make him pleased with us that we’re actually not submitting to the Lord and being led daily by him. To trust wholeheartedly in the God of Jesus Christ is to daily seek to hear from him, to daily ask him to help us see where we’re tempted, to daily learn to love his sanctifying work in our lives. And the wonderful promise that he gives in verse 11 is that anyone who places this kind of trust in the Lord Jesus will not be put to shame. We will not find that we were foolish to place our lives, our hearts, our minds, and all of our relationships, hopes, and fears into his hands. He is faithful, and he is true. He knows us better than we know ourselves. He is more committed to our good than we are. We can count on him, absolutely. I was thinking that this is a great passage for the beginning of Lent, because it’s a time where we really can take a look more deliberately at the different ways we are tending to trust in other things instead of Jesus, handing them over to him gladly again and placing our lives under his care. [00:27:41] Anthony: Amen. And amen. No one who believes in him will be put to shame. Absolutely. Oh, that’s such assurance in that statement that you won’t be left standing at the altar, that he is devoted to us more than we’re devoted to ourselves. He knows us the best and loves us the most. Hallelujah. Praise God. We’ll transition to our next pericope of the month. It’s Philippians 3:17-4:1. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Second Sunday of Easter Prep, Lent on March 16. Brothers and sisters, join in imitating me, and observe those who live according to the example you have in us. 18 For many live as enemies of the cross of Christ; I have often told you of them, and now I tell you even with tears. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is the belly, and their glory is in their shame; their minds are set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and it is from there that we are expecting a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ. 21 He will transform the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, by the power that also enables him to make all things subject to himself. 4 1 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, whom I love and long for, my joy and crown, stand firm in the Lord in this way, my beloved. So the apostle gives his readers a warning about living as enemies of the cross of Christ. What a trepidatious warning. In what ways should we modern readers be on guard about living as if we are enemies to Christ’s cross? [00:29:32] Cathy: Okay. Well, Paul begins this section encouraging the Philippians to imitate him, right? That’s where this passage begins, and to pay attention to, or to focus on those who are walking or living according to the pattern of Paul’s own following after Christ himself. The reason that he gives this is because there are so many who are living or walking as enemies of the Cross of Christ who could influence them. So, Paul is basically, at the beginning of the passage, pointing out two opposite ways of living or, in the Greek, walking in our lives. And as Christians, basically, who are we to pattern our lives after? Well, Paul is saying on the positive side: those who are following after Christ. But he’s also taking the time in this passage to help them recognize the patterns of those who live opposed to the grace of God that has been given to us in Jesus and why doing that will never lead to light. First point I want to make is that he is saying in this world there are competing voices, competing ways to live. It’s kind of obvious, but I don’t know if we always realize this. We do not live in a neutral space in this world. And we need to be wise by who we’re influenced by. We actually live in a world that is hostile to the grace of God. Paul says there are many who walk as enemies of the cross, who are actually opposed to God’s grace, who reject it and promote its rejection. Here he repeats this fact with tears. He’s clearly grieved by their rejection of God. And concerned about the undermining effect these people have already had on the Philippian Christians. So, his warning is basically indicating, he says this at the end, to stand firm in Christ. And this isn’t a passive activity for Christians in the fallen world. We live in a world where, as we’ve already talked about, there’s all kinds of voices and pressures around us that are happy to tempt us to distrust God and his good purposes for us and for all of his creation. I think this, in and of itself, is helpful for us to remember. I think that’s the first point. Paul is using really strong and sobering language here, since he knows the danger they’re in. And it is kind of shocking, isn’t it? How can it be that some, even many, would oppose the wonderful grace of God that is offered to us in Christ? But Paul is indicating here, although it makes no sense, that there’s no good reason to regard Jesus as an enemy, yet there are those who do. And we shouldn’t be naive about this. The result of that situation is there are many ways that we can be tempted to live contrary to the grace of God, and these temptations might come from some people that we deeply care about. In some sense, they always come from those we care about to some degree, and I think we often find ourselves sharing in Paul’s tears and the tears of Jesus over Jerusalem. Now, it’s interesting to me that Paul says these people live as enemies of the Cross of Christ. I thought a lot about this. Isn’t the Cross of Christ where we see the very center and heart of God’s grace? It’s right there where we see what it costs to extend his grace to us, to come down and rescue us, to free us from the grasp of evil and death and our rebellion against them. It really is the measure of our deep need. I think it is humbling and hard to look at how costly our rescue is to God. I think sometimes we really don’t know if we want grace to be so costly to him. Surely we’re not that bad, that deceived, that lost, that God himself would have to come and be rejected, and spat upon, and lied about, and mocked, and stripped, humiliated, killed in the most shameful way possible, to save us, to rescue us, to lead us to life. How humiliating. The grace of God poured out at the Cross offends our pride. The Cross of Christ fully challenges any attempt to justify ourselves, to give ourselves life, identity, meaning, or significance. And this is why some live rejecting it as enemies of the Cross. We can be tempted at times to be ashamed of what Christ has had to do for us. But Jesus himself rejected the shame that was aimed at him to give us eternal life. And he is not ashamed of us. That’s why turning to Christ involves true repentance. Turning away from pride, arrogance, self-sufficiency, self-centeredness to receive life from the Lord himself. And when we are dealing with people who live as enemies of the Cross, that’s what they don’t want to do. We don’t want to have to stop justifying ourselves. They don’t want to find themselves not sufficient. In order to help these Christians who have already died to their pride and receive the extravagant grace of God, Paul expands on what walking as an enemy of the Christ looks like in verse 19, “their end is destruction, their God is the belly, and their glory is their shame; their minds are set on earthly things.” I’m just going to look at two of the phrases here. (That’s too much, obviously.) First, he says their God is the belly. The people whom Paul is warning about worship comfort and pleasure here and now. They want to go their own way; they want to avoid suffering and discipline and live in the moment. They want to give themselves whatever pleasures they create. That is the way of those ashamed. By contrast, Paul and the Philippian Christians were suffering for their faith in Christ, as Paul has already made clear earlier in the letter. And we know there are many Christians today in the world who suffer for living under the good and reign of Christ. Some even dying for their faith. Jesus, we recall, told his disciples that in this world we would have tribulations. And I think it’s when we’re suffering that this temptation to listen to those who are living as enemies of the Cross can be strong. Secondly, Paul says their minds are set on earthly things. And this is already obviously connected to the worship of immediate pleasures. They’re caught up in wanting all they can have from this earthly life: security, control, lack of suffering, power, fame. Well, they are lovers of the world and what they believe it can offer them. So how do Christians stand firm in Christ when encountering these influences? Well, Paul reminds them and us that our ultimate citizenship is in heaven. We actually don’t belong to this fallen world. We are not its possessions, and we are not its slaves. Which, if you don’t mind, I’m going to go ahead and answer your second question, because this is connected, which is to talk a little bit about having our citizenship in heaven. Paul indicates, again, that this is not our home. We are here as ambassadors, as resident aliens, as foreigners, because we belong heart, soul, and body to the living triune God. We’re united to him, and that means that all we’re dealing with here good, evil will not be the last word about who we are, what the meaning of our lives will be, what our purpose and the final end will amount to. Jesus Christ, our risen Lord, will have the last word about us. And hopefully that helps us to be able to take this world lightly. And going back to the looking at your sufferings as slight and momentary because we know where we really belong. We live anticipating the glorious and sure future coming of Christ. And I love this. [Paul] says, [Jesus] will return and transform our body of humiliation to conform it to the body of his glory, which is what he kind of goes through, right? He had a body of humiliation, but it was resurrected glorious. And he shares that with us. He will do this with the same power that enables him as Lord to place all things under his feet. We see his power in his own suffering and death and vindicating resurrection. And once again, we will not be ashamed. We will be completely vindicated in our faith and our hope in Jesus Christ, belonging to him, to walk in the pattern of the gospel, to stand firm in an often hostile world. It means to live in light of this sure and certain future, knowing that what is coming is infinitely better than any life we can try to create for ourselves here. We can work diligently in Christ to know him and to make him known, but at the same time, we can take ourselves and our efforts lightly. Our trust is in his presence, his working, not in ourselves, not in any earthly power. He alone can make everything new, put everything right. Yes, it’s hidden right now, but it will be gloriously manifested one day. We are not alone. We can turn again each day to fill our vision with Jesus, fill up our hope in him. We can weep over those who are rejecting his grace at this point and intercede for them. But we don’t have to be tempted to walk in their ways, which only leads to hopelessness and destruction. [00:40:17] Anthony: And in light of what Cathy just said, we can reread chapter 4, verse 1. “Therefore, my brothers and sisters, whom I love and long for, my joy and crown. Stand firm in the Lord in this way, my beloved. “Amen. Amen. Let’s pivot to our next pericope of the Month. It’s 1 Corinthians 10:1-13. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Third Sunday of Easter Prep and Lent which is March 23. Cathy, read it for us please. [00:40:54] Cathy: I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 and all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, and they were struck down in the wilderness. 6 Now these things occurred as examples for us, so that we might not desire evil as they did. 7 Do not become idolaters as some of them did, as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and they rose up to play.” 8 We must not engage in sexual immorality, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day. 9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did, and were destroyed by serpents. 10 And do not complain, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 These things happened to them to serve as an example, and they were written down to instruct us, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 So if you think you are standing, watch out that you do not fall. 13 No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength, but with the testing he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it. [00:42:21] Anthony: Well, this month, we have two warning passages. Lucky you, Cathy, you get to deal with the warnings. So, what should we make of the warning given in this passage to the church in Corinth about the ancestors of spiritual Israel? [00:42:38] Cathy: Take a breath. All right. So again, I think it kind of helps to consider the letter as a whole to understand this passage. What were the Corinthians dealing with and what were Paul’s concerns with them? So we’ve talked a little bit about already Corinth, because we’ve had other passages. Let me just say again, the city was characterized as a self-sufficient and self-congratulatory culture, obsessed with peer group prestige and success and competition. One of the funny things about them is they prized a good rhetoric, which they actually defined as being able to be persuasive more than being truthful — kind of reminds me of today. The church itself was quite diverse and included Jews and Greeks, wealthy and poor, masters and slaves. The tendency to boast in one’s status, wealth, pervasive powers, plagued the young church coming in from the society as a whole. And this is obvious when you read the whole letter. Overall, they were a gifted congregation, but the temptation to trust in their own wisdom and strength of character was a strong one for some of them. So, from Paul’s words over the whole letter, it would seem that some of them at least were tempted to trust in their knowledge about Christ rather than in Christ himself. This led to a misunderstanding and misuse of their freedom in Christ. They thought that their knowledge about Jesus and his work in their lives led to a freedom to accommodate the culture in ways that didn’t conform to life in Christ. For instance, some boasted in their supposed liberty to eat foods offered to idols as sacrifices at the pagan festivals. So, you could say they had their doctrine down, but they would then turn and live as they saw fit. Because they were proud of having their doctrine down, Paul had taught at length in the preceding passages that to live in the freedom of Christ is to live in the ongoing relationship with the living Lord, trusting only and only in him, receiving always from him. And then only on that basis, helping others do the same. He warns against misusing and abusing their freedom since that route would only lead them back into the slavery of sinful ways of thinking and acting. So, then looking at the passage itself, Paul is holding up as an example or a type for the Corinthians and for us, what happened to the generation of Israelites who did not get to enter the promised land but died in the wilderness. He is warning here that they, as the Church, were not to desire evil as the Israelites did or be idolaters as they were or to grumble as they did. They were not to put Jesus to the test as those Israelites had put God to the test. Okay, well, what does all that mean? That’s what we’re asking. Well, before these four admonitions, Paul talks in the first five verses about the Israelites all sharing in the reality of God’s presence and working in their lives. They had all passed through the same cloud and the same sea. They had all partaken of the same spiritual bread and drink that sustained them through their wilderness experience. And he further explains that the ultimate source of their sustenance was Christ himself. So, however we understand exactly what he’s referring to here, I’m not going to go into that. The point Paul is making is that they were all led by the same reality. They all passed through a kind of baptism to live to the God who faithfully and fully provided for them. But despite God’s faithfulness in various ways, they chose not to live in ways that counted on and corresponded to the living reality of God’s provision and guidance that he was providing for them. In other words, they decided to live as if God really wasn’t who he said he was, and as if he really wasn’t providing for them the way that he was. And this is the temptation that Paul is warning the Corinthians again. They have Christ, but some are tempted not to live fully on the basis of his real living presence and work each day. Some were not submitting to his guidance, continually turning to hear his word to them and act on his faithfulness. Instead, they were tempted to trust in their doctrines of Christ or their wisdom about spiritual things rather than Christ himself. Their competence was in their sophisticated knowledge or their ideas about Christ. And sometimes I think they were really regarding him more as a principle or an abstract power or an impersonal and universal force they could tap into. And thinking about him this way justified their continuing to be more concerned about their reputations, their success, or their status in their culture. When they were tempted to trust in their wisdom about Christ or their principles, they were in danger of actually moving away from Christ of becoming like the Israelites, having idols, grumbling, putting God to the test. What they were really starting to do is trust in themselves. Christ himself, his active will and way, is the reality they were to conform to in a daily living worship relationship of prayer and trusting obedience to his word. Paul is saying this is the only way to true freedom and joy that he offers us. So, it seems that what Paul has been saying is that one is only free when they are fully compelled to live in Christ, under Christ, and in trusting, fellowship, and communion with him. By trusting in something else other than the present living out of Christ every day, they were in danger of being enslaved by their own desires for good reputation They need to make good impressions on others to be influential and successful in the eyes of others. That’s the strange thing — trusting in things about Christ leads us away from Christ We are to have all our strings attached to Jesus. We are under him alone. And in all ways, we are not living in real freedom when we live apart from him, but only when we are living in and under him, when we are free from all these idols, including ourselves. No other authority will lead to real freedom. [00:49:27] Anthony: Well, Cathy, I want to read verse 13 again, because I’m going to ask for your exegetical commentary on it. And it says, “No testing has overtaken you that is not common to everyone. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tested beyond your strength. But with the testing, he will also provide the way out so that you may be able to endure it.” It seems to me there’s assurance there; there’s hope there. There’s a chance to exhale because a lot of people are going through heavy things. What say you? [00:50:02] Cathy: Yeah, this is actually a very interesting verse, and it would take a lot longer than we have to unpack it totally, but I certainly like to give a stab at it. So, we live in a world where we encounter constant temptations, right? We’ve been talking about this all the way through, to stop counting on Christ’s real presence and work in our lives and in our fallen world. We may be having issues from external circumstances, like you were just mentioning, like sickness, accident, persecution, and we usually refer to these things kind of more as trials. But we can also be having issues more internally, as desires to commit sinful thoughts or actions, and we usually call these temptations. Paul is really talking, I would say here, about both avenues. But it’s best to translate this probably temptations, because he is most concerned about the common danger of both, of all of this, which is to distrust God and instead start placing our trust in other forces, powers, or even trusting in ourselves, because life is hurting right now. Well, this was the same for the Corinthian Christians. The temptation to secure their reputations or to be secure and safe, as I said, suffer less, would be coming at them from their surrounding society, from the people they were dealing with every day, maybe even from family members. But such temptations can play on our own strong internal desires and fears both, right? We have what’s going on outside, kind of how we’re responding to it. It was these kinds of temptations that played on the Corinthians confidence in themselves so that some of them were putting themselves in compromising situations, such as participating in pagan festivals, that’s the immediate context. And paradoxically, it would seem that there were some in the church. Who also wanted to justify their succumbing to substance abuse temptations by claiming it was such an unusually strong temptation and no one else had ever faced anything like this before. How do we deal with this? Paul’s addressing basically, I would say kind of three things. One is we will encounter temptations and trials in life, and they will oftentimes tempt us to stop trusting God. One of those temptations is to so trust in ourselves that we pridefully place ourselves in compromising situations. And then three, the temptation to attempt to justify why we couldn’t resist a sin and fall into the temptation. So, what is Paul’s answer to these three facts that the Corinthians and we and all persons face? Well, Paul’s first point here is to disabuse ourselves of the belief that we are alone in any of the temptations we face. We all struggle at times to trust God in the middle of whatever we’re dealing with. I think that is the crux of the Christian life in this fallen world. But he’s saying, God is faithful. And he is available and with us, even as we face trials and temptations. All the temptations out there are common to humanity. They’re not unique to us. We are not having greater temptations than people did years ago. Our particular time is not different, and none of it is a surprise to God. God is never calm, certainly at their root. All the temptations, as I’ve said, is to not trust that God is here. That he loves us, and he is working this out for our good. [00:54:02] Anthony: Hallelujah. Praise God. [00:54:04] Cathy: He will be faithful to redeem it, and to deliver us. I’m sorry. [00:54:09] Anthony: Nothing to apologize for. [00:54:11] Cathy: And isn’t that what he says? God is faithful. There is never a time where God will not act according to his character and purposes. It’s just not going to happen. He reassures them that God will not allow the temptation or trial to be so strong that they cannot escape because he will provide a way out. That doesn’t mean they have to find it — they’re not in an escape room. In other words, when you’re being tempted, where is God? The answer is right here. Right here. He never left. You are not on your own with God watching from a distance to see how you will do. He is acting. He is available by his word and Holy Spirit. So, as we face whatever temptations and trials we’re in, we can take his living presence seriously. We can look away from the temptation to God, trust he has a way out, look to see what he is providing because he’s sufficient. I didn’t think I’d get through this whole thing without crying, but there we go. Yeah. [00:55:14] Anthony: I as you were talking and thinking through this, my mind went to 1 John where we’re assured that God is love. Not that he has love, like this is one of his tools in the toolbox. His very essence, nature, and substances is love. He is love and God can only do who he is. He cannot act out of character else he would be a liar, and he is not a liar. [00:55:44] Cathy: No, he’s not a liar. We’ve been going through our own trials, and I’ve been realizing again and again, no trial is visited on us except by the God who loves us. We are his love. He is making us more able to receive it. We can trust him no matter what it is we’re going through. Doesn’t mean it’s easy. It’s kind of a wrestling, but that’s what it is. [00:56:11] Anthony: And it’s interesting to me because as we transition into the homestretch and our final passage of the month. I was going to ask you to make the text personal, but you’ve already done that for us. I’ll still ask you to do it again. But that’s, I think, a word for all of us. That’s when there’s congruency with what the text is telling us, with what’s going on in our lives. And we keep coming back, as you said repeatedly through this podcast, that if we just continue to trust, to trust in the one who is looking at us, who is with us, it makes all the difference. He is not only making a way, but he is the way, he’s the way out, the rescuer and deliver. Our final passage of the month is 2 Corinthians 5:16-21. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Fourth Sunday of Easter Prep / Lent on March 30. From now on, therefore, we regard no one from a human point of view; even though we once knew Christ from a human point of view, we no longer know him in that way. 17 So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; look, new things have come into being! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and has given us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us; we entreat you on behalf of Christ: be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake God made the one who knew no sin to be sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. This passage … wow! [00:58:26] Cathy: Yeah! [00:58:28] Anthony: It is something! I wish we could have spent the entire hour here, but it’s all been good. It’s all gospel but tell us about the gospel contained within. Well, tell us about this ministry of reconciliation. [00:58:39] Cathy: I will confess that this passage was the one I ended up spending the most time on and rewriting and rethinking about really more than the others. Yes, there’s too much here to have time for. Let’s just start by going over what exactly this reconciliation is in order to talk about ministry of reconciliation. So, Paul says in this passage that God in Christ has reconciled us to himself. Well, what does that mean? Well, reconciliation very simply assumes that there is a damaged or broken relationship that needs to be fixed. And in our relationship with God, the brokenness is on our side, and it goes deep in the fall. Humanity became, as Paul says elsewhere, lost, dead, and without hope in the world. The truth is we cannot know God on our own, who he really is, and we cannot know who we really are and who we were created to be. We are bent towards running away from God, wanting our own way, feeding our desires, resentments, ambitions, et cetera. And we have utterly lost our capacity to know and trust God, to receive from him, and to live in the overflowing love he has for us. For us to have real relationship, real communion with God would require a work in us, not just a work for us. We would need to be rescued from evil and death, made able to see and know the triune God, to receive his love and thereby know the reality of everything. We would have to have our darkened minds not only flooded with light, but our eyes able to see it. God would have to do something from his side that would reach to ours as well. All this twistedness, mess, and suffering would have to be undone all the way down to its root. He had to undo the root cause or issue of the alienation, distrust, and rebellion. It couldn’t be superficial. It’s not fairy dust. It’s not a mental flip in his head or a psychological trick. God would somehow have to do a work in us that would put us on a new foundation, a new footing, that would enable us to live in good and right relationship with him. And it would be a costly suffering and atoning act. And in Christ, God has done this work. That’s what Paul is proclaiming. God has, in Christ, reconciled himself to us in the life, suffering, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus. The Son of God entered into our sinful humanity and has taken on our sin, our fallen nature, our diseases, our sufferings, and our death. In order, ultimately, to separate us from our sin and heal us from the inside out. At his own cost, God has cleared the way for all who have rebelled against him in unbelief and distrust to come back to him. He holds nothing against us but instead offers forgiveness and even the power to receive forgiveness, so that we might live out a reconciled relationship with our Creator and Redeemer God. God in Christ is undoing, redeeming all the evil, sin, damage, and brokenness of all of his creation. In verse 19, Paul says in Christ God was reconciling the world or cosmos to himself. So, for those of us who have received Christ, who have put our lives under his wonderful reign, and are now participating in this wonderful ongoing work, we are now, as he is saying, his ambassadors. We are participating in this wonderful work. We participate in it, first of all, by simply living in this new life of right relationship that he gives us. We bear witness of his goodness and reality as we grow up in the reconciliation that he has done for us, as we receive his sanctifying work in our lives. And we participate in this ongoing work when we proclaim to others this wonderful news. God makes his appeal for all to receive the gift of reconciliation he has accomplished through those who have already received it. So having opened the way, God is doing the ongoing work of drawing others to himself, the outworking of his atoning reconciliation isn’t finished. Thank God. He’s continuing his work to get the world to receive the free gift of his having reconciled the world to himself. And we are a part of this outworking, we participate, as I said, as his ambassador. And I think one of the main ways we participate is simply by living in him, by growing in him, by trusting in a right relationship with him ourselves. God in Christ has made us his own. He’s made me his own. He’s given himself to me. He’s committed to transforming and growing me into this new life with him and in him. So today, again, I get to say amen to him and do his work in me. I get to come to love his sanctifying work in me, as arduous as it sometimes is, to let his Holy Spirit lead me to repentance and trust in him again and not in myself. I have never found it easy or automatic, but I do rejoice in where he has brought me already and I look forward to seeing him complete the work. I have found in my life that the more I know his grace and kindness towards me, the more I want to press on to know him, the more I want to be like him, and so the person he created me to be. I want to live suspended in his grace every day, and this participation in his work in me is a witness to myself and to others of his good, holy, and living reality. God makes his appeal through me, as he once again leads me to act out of complete devotion and trust in his faithfulness in his work in me and in the world. God makes his appeal through me when he enables me to repent of my resentment, unforgiveness, my pride, instead of acting on them. He makes his appeal through me when he reminds me in his word of his good character and purposes and helps me once again to hand my fears over to him so that I can receive and attend to his good grace in the actual moment I’m in. And he has made his appeal through me often, I have found in my life, when he has taken me through wrenching situations and then actually use them in my caring for others. He is making his appeal through me when he leads me to cry out with tears in prayer for our world and for the people I know are suffering. And recently, he’s been making his appeal through me as he puts me into places where I keep having to admit that I’m not in control, that I’m not adequate to the task, and that I need to depend fully on him, which is something he longs for me to do, and something I resist. What I’m trying to say is that I am often surprised at how God works in me and makes his appeal through me. I’m often surprised to find out what this ongoing ministry looks like for me. I’m always discovering anew the ways that God is at work in and through my life to make his appeal. I believe it can be tempting to think that this wrestling, sanctifying work that he’s doing in us is something apart from his making his appeal. That simply isn’t true. You can’t separate the work he is doing in you from the work he is doing through you. And that’s very humbling. My job is to follow God’s work in my life and trust that he will make his appeal through all the various twists and turns. And, of course, as I follow him, he gives me opportunities to proclaim to others the new footing on which God has placed his creation and every creature. We can proclaim to those who don’t yet know him, that contrary to all the lies about God, this God is not against us, but he is for us. And he has blazed a path for us to return to him. The door is open to God. It’s truly amazing. [01:07:45] Anthony: It’s humbling, is it not, Cathy? He doesn’t need me to make his appeal. [01:07:50] Cathy: No, he doesn’t. [01:07:51] Anthony: He wants me. [01:07:53] Cathy: Yeah. [01:07:54] Anthony: Out of his goodness, he created out of love. And it’s this joyful participation in that appeal, but he doesn’t need me to do it, but he wants relationship, real relationship with me for that appeal to be made. And so, my final question to kind of wrap up our podcast together relates to that. I’m just curious, how has this passage of scripture renewed your thinking about God, which you’ve already alluded to, but also your fellow human beings? How has it reshaped your thinking about the people you encounter? [01:08:31] Cathy: Well, I’d say that for me this passage, but also just a lot of what I’ve been going through. We have a lot of people, as you were saying, who are suffering in their lives. Some know Christ, some don’t. I’ve thought a lot about something Paul talks about, of sharing in the sufferings of Christ. That for me, living in this ongoing ministry of reconciliation to others, yes, it’s a joyous, but for me, a lot of times it’s been a suffering because I feel so sad about what people are going through. And I’ve come to realize victoriously, but also just amazing that praying for them, praying with them, coming alongside of them is oftentimes what God is calling me to do as he makes his appeal to them. I hope this makes sense, [01:09:36] Anthony: It does. [01:09:37] Cathy: But I guess I would just say that I have been amazed, and this was part of what I was trying to say is he is making his appeal through this mess that’s me and that he’s working through. I don’t have to get my act together over here so that I can have him making his appeal over there when I look good. That the wonderful, amazing thing is nothing is wasted. Nothing’s wasted. He uses it all for his glory. And sometimes I think what he’s doing is he’s making his appeal to others through me in my weakest points, in the places I don’t want him to be, because I want to look more together than I do. [01:10:29] Anthony: You’re not alone, sister. [01:10:31] Cathy: And that is mind blowing to me. It’s just so good and so amazing. And that’s basically what I would say that this whole thing has been for me. [01:10:41] Anthony: Well friends, as we wrap up, I wanted to share an encouragement with you and a thought for us to really contend with from Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He said, “May God in his mercy lead us through these times, but above all, may he lead us to himself.” [01:10:59] Cathy: Yes. Amen. [01:11:00] Anthony: Amen. And amen. Friends, this podcast is not a one man show. Thankfully … it wouldn’t be very good. It’s a team of people, and I’m so blessed to work with Elizabeth Mullins and Reuel Enerio and Michelle Hartman who put this together for you. I hope it’s a blessing. Cathy, I want to thank you for your time, your energy, just the capacity to teach scripture — a gift God has given you. So thankful for your words of encouragement here today. And for a final word of encouragement, we’re going to ask you to pray and bless us on our way. [01:11:32] Cathy: Sure. Heavenly Father, we are so grateful that you love us more than you love just being yourself, the triune God, but you’ve come down and you have made us your own. And I am so grateful for your relentless love for us. I’m so grateful for all the people who will hear this, not because I got a chance to be a part of it, but because you want to speak to them. You love them. You love them so much. So much more, I’m sure, than they realize a lot of times. And I trust that you will use your words of Scripture and anything, anything that was helpful here to your glory and to their good. We praise you and we thank you, in the good and glorious name of Jesus, Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb . If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you! The post Cathy Deddo—Year C Transfiguration, Easter Prep 1–4 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources .…

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Rick Shallenberger—Year C Epiphany 4-7 50:34

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50:34

Rick Shallenberger—Year C Epiphany 4-7 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode . Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb . Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ centered and Trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Rick Shallenberger. Rick has been in ministry for more than 40 years. He’s been a teacher, a preacher, a ministry leader, a writer, and get this, he’s about to retire in January. And we’re so excited for him. It’ll be so fun seeing God unveil how he’s at work in his life, in the work of his family, in the form of ministry. Rick, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time joining us, we’d love to know a little bit about you, your story, your backstory, and how you’re joining with Jesus in his ministry. [00:01:27] Rick: Anthony, thanks so much for having me on. We’ve had a good friendship for years and I’ve watched, or I should say, listened to your podcast and have enjoyed it. And so, it’s just a thrill to be a part of it. The backstory — I could go for hours, but this is podcast, and we can’t. So, I’m just going to share that I grew up in a legalistic fundamentalist cult that formed much of my life until I encountered Jesus and who, I would say, is still in the process of transforming me. I’ve been blessed to be an integral part of bringing my denomination from legalism to grace. In fact, I was asked one time why I stayed with it and my answer was, I believed God asked me to be part of the solution. So, if I were to summarize my spiritual journey, I would say I went from cult to Christian, and from judgment to Jesus. I use that phraseology because I really think I might write a book on that sometime and that might be the title. But who knows? I have co-authored a book explaining some of the transformation that my denomination is going through and developing a healthier approach to leadership. It’s called A Giant Step Forward: Toward an Emerging Culture of Liberation . But you ask me, I’ve had an amazing journey, Anthony, with Jesus. It’s been tragic, and it’s been filled with blessings. I’m the sole survivor of a family of ten. That’s part of the tragic. But, part of the blessings is that my wife, Cheryl, and I have been married for 39 years. And we have three children and four grandchildren with the promise that more grandchildren will be coming in the future. [00:03:10] Anthony: You’re going to hold them to it, aren’t you? [00:03:12] Rick: I am. I am definitely going to hold them to it. Professionally, I’ve been writing and editing for more than 30 years. I currently serve as a regional director for pastors and ministry leaders in the north central part of the U.S., as well as I’m ending my role as publications editor and assistant to the president of our denomination. As Anthony mentioned, I’m retiring in January. And … [00:03:37] Anthony: … we should have had some music in the background. Celebration music. [00:03:40] Rick: Yeah, I know. Exactly right. I’m really excited to see where Jesus is going to lead me in the future and what any future ministry might look like. I have lots of plans, Anthony, but always with the caveat, not my will, but Yours be done. [00:03:55] Anthony: Yeah. And Rick’s been working a lot of those years for Grace Communion International, which is the sponsor of this podcast. And we love you, brother. It’s been exciting to see what the Lord by the Spirit has been doing in your life and excited to see what’s ahead. It’s just a joy, even to reflect back on what has sometimes been, as you labeled it, tragic. And it made me think of a term I heard from a Christian author. She said, life can be brutaliful. Brutal and yet beautiful at the same time, and it’s all held together in the person of Jesus Christ. Hallelujah. And Rick, as we’re having this podcast now, we’re in the season after Epiphany, some call it Epiphany tide on the liturgical calendar. And I’m just curious for those that may be fairly new to the calendar and its usage, what significance does this season hold for you and what might followers of Jesus consider about this season? [00:04:49] Rick: That’s a good question. I believe that in our enthusiasm for Christmas and in our preparation for the season of Lent or Easter preparation (as our denomination likes to refer to it), Epiphany often gets overlooked. And I believe that’s a mistake. I believe that we can be in danger of missing out on what the season is all about. I like the way Bobby Gross, author of Living the Christian Yea r, described Epiphany. He called Epiphany the season of enlightenment. And he pointed out that the common theme is manifestation. And he said, “What has largely been hidden is made more widely known.” And I like that phrase because in my opinion, Epiphany is a season for seeing more of Christ’s glory, basically focusing on his life and mission. I liken it to the Christmas song, “Go Tell It on the Mountain.” It’s almost hey, you’ve seen the light, now go and tell others about it or about Him. And I think the two important events that frame Epiphany, and one of them we do tend to focus on a lot is Jesus’ baptism. And the other is the Transfiguration. But think of this, Anthony, in His baptism the heavens open, the voice speaks, and the Spirit descends. And in the Transfiguration the light dazzles, the prophets appear, and the voice calls out from the clouds. These are epiphanies. And that’s why I love the season, because it’s helping us see that Jesus is the light. [00:06:19] Anthony: He is the light. And I as you were talking, I was thinking about, as you mentioned, Transfiguration, just that whole encounter with Jesus and his three friends and the true prophets of old on the Mount of Transfiguration. And what a dazzling display of the glory of God being made manifest for just a brief moment on that mountain, to the point where his friends, the disciples didn’t know what to do with it. Let’s build a tent. Let’s just stay up here. But we get those glimpses. But you just know you’re drawn to it. Your gaze is upon it. It’s mesmerizing, and it leaves us going, we want more, please. Lord Jesus, come! [00:07:10] Rick: I love the fact that we use the term epiphany too. It’s like, oh, I didn’t understand that; I’ve had an Epiphany. I like that because it helps us to say, hey, there are things you don’t understand that you now understand. And when you put that in the light of who Jesus is and who we are in Him, man, we want more and more epiphanies. [00:07:22] Anthony: That’s right. And it’s a common phrase we have, Rick, is an “aha moment,” and Epiphany is a season of “aha’s.” But it’s also a season of “uh oh’s,” which is an Epiphany. Like when we see things in our life that haven’t been conformed to Christ, we’re like, uh, oh, Lord come! And as you had already said, you’re still being transformed, as we all are, by the Spirit. And that’s a good thing. It can be painful to see it sometimes. [00:07:50] Rick: I like that. “Uh, oh.” That’s a really good way to look at things. [00:07:54] Anthony: I have a lot of “uh oh’s” in my life, Rick. So, it’s always fresh on my mind. [00:08:07] Rick: Oh no, my brother no, don’t tell me that. [00:08:11] Anthony: Brother, let’s do this. We’re here to talk about the lectionary text, and our first pericope of the month is 1 Corinthians 13:1-13. I’ll be reading from the New Revised Standard Version Updated Edition. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the fourth Sunday after Epiphany, February 2, and it reads, If I speak in the tongues of humans and of angels but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 And if I have prophetic powers and understand all mysteries and all knowledge and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give away all my possessions and if I hand over my body so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable; it keeps no record of wrongs; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never ends. But as for prophecies, they will come to an end; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will come to an end. 9 For we know only in part, and we prophesy only in part, 10 but when the complete comes, the partial will come to an end. 11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became an adult, I put an end to childish ways. 12 For now we see only a reflection, as in a mirror, but then we will see face to face. Now I know only in part; then I will know fully, even as I have been fully known. 13 And now faith, hope, and love remain, these three, and the greatest of these is love. So, Rick, there seems to be a lot of noisy gonging and clanging going on these days, too often from Christians. In what ways do we need to be conformed to Christ so that when we’re speaking, we’re only speaking in love. [00:10:16] Rick: That’s a powerful question. This passage I’ve used in many different ways. Often, obviously I use it in weddings, the middle section of it, but this passage is really about God and who He is, but it’s also — and I love this about the Scriptures. They often have much more meaning than one particular focus, and we can get so much out of it. But you’re right, Anthony. We hear a lot of gonging and clanging from Christians. And unfortunately, we hear a lot of it during the election process, gonging and clanging on both sides. And it’s interesting because we see, unfortunately, we see Christians on both sides of almost every issue. I shouldn’t say unfortunately, because it’s probably fortunate that we do, because it reveals to us that Jesus came to save all. It doesn’t matter what issue we’re facing in society and what side Christians find themselves on — and we find ourselves on different sides because of our different backstories and our environments and so many other different factors. But it does point out to us that Jesus came to save all Republicans, Democrats, and dependents, Jews, Muslims, atheists, Jews, Gentiles, males, females, slaves and free! The gospel is good news for all, but it seems we haven’t changed much from the early church who believed everyone must believe and act just like we do. So, we frequently fall in the area of loving others. And the love that Paul is referring to, Anthony, is, as you’ve referred to, is charity. That’s the word a lot of translators use. But it comes from the Greek word agape . And agape is not referring to charity in the sense of giving a donation somewhere. Sure. But agape is referring to love in its fullest and most extensive meaning — true love to God and true love to man. And as I read this, I can’t help but think that Paul might be referring to what’s known as the Two Great Commandments. “Love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and to love your neighbors yourself.” And I wouldn’t disagree with that, but I also believe that he’s referring to addressing the real problem here, and that’s not obeying the new commandment Jesus gave to us, which we find in John 13. I know that’s off the pericope, but it relates, and that is, “I give you a new commandment that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you should also love one another.” And then of course, in 35, he says, “by this, everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.” But I think this passage describes what that love is like. I think Paul is referring to love as a way of life, putting others first. And he knows human nature, and our nature is to love from a distance. Let me give you some examples. I love people by speaking in tongues and helping them see what it means to be in close connection with God. Or I love people by prophesying to them, giving them a special message I believe is from God to them. And of course, not that I’d put my own thoughts in that prophetic message, of course. Or I might give away all my possessions and people can see how sacrificial I am. And these things are not wrong. But Anthony, they don’t include loving others as Jesus loves me or you. In other words, they don’t include pointing them to the One who loves them first. I guess I’d say if love doesn’t include building relationship, then it’s nothing more than a loud cymbal that might make you jump. But it doesn’t really help in your personal journey with Jesus. Does that make sense? [00:13:45] Anthony: It does. It does. I’ve long believed Rick that one of the best ways we can express our love to God is by loving our neighbor. It’s loving the other people in our lives. And I came across a quote from George McDonald, one of my favorite authors, and he said, “We are made for love, not for self. Our neighbor is our refuge; self is our demon foe.” And that can seem really like an in-your-face quote, but there’s something to that because we often take care of ourselves, don’t we? We put ourselves first, but the way that our love for God gets expressed best is by loving those people around us, including them in relationship. [00:14:29] Rick: As you say that, I’m thinking all the self-help books of the 80s and 90s and the “me movements” and all the pain in relationships you see when you start to focus on the self. It’s all about me, it’s about my happiness, and it’s about what I want and what gives me peace. And if we aren’t loving others as you said, then — and as John says in, I think it’s his second or third letter — then we aren’t loving God because they are together. One leads to the other, and we cannot say we love God if we don’t love others. And if we’re always putting the self or are focused on the self, then it’s easy to see all kinds of ways and reasons not to love other people because I’ve got to take care of myself and I’ve got to get right with God and I’ve got to find out who I am. And if that’s at your expense, too bad. [00:15:29] Anthony: Yeah. I’m thinking of just imagery of a lake that gets dammed up or a body of water, a small body of water that gets dammed up and how water is meant to flow out. And when it’s dammed up, bacteria can set up. It’s not healthy for the fish life in that area. It’s meant to flow out of us to others. And just thinking of George McDonald again, and I’m just going to loosely paraphrase what I remember him saying: our true belief is what we live by. It’s not what we think; it’s what we do that expresses the true theology of our soul. And so, to say that God loves us and then we don’t love others, we don’t get it. To have received God’s grace and then not be gracious to other others is not to understand grace. So, it has to get expressed out to others. And so, let’s think more about that. Let’s get personal about it. I’m going to ask you to testify how you, Rick Shallenberger, have experienced God’s goodness made manifest in the church. How have you experienced the kind of love talked about in this passage in and through the church and what impact did it have on your life? [00:16:45] Rick: You told me we only had an hour. [00:16:50] Anthony: And I’m going to stick to it, buddy. [00:16:52] Rick: I grew up in a cult of legalism, so my behavior was constantly being judged, and that wasn’t just a perception that was a reality. And it made me feel “less than” in many ways. So, the first thing I had to learn was the love that God was displaying toward me and how I can then express that love toward others. So, I’ll never forget the first Promise Keepers event I attended. You know here I was in a legalistic group, and I believe that I had a special relationship with God and not a lot of other groups did. And I went in this hall or stadium, and I saw thousands of men from every denomination, worshiping and praying together, and that really shook me in a very good way. But I also attended with three pastors who took the opportunity during that weekend to really speak life into me. And they pointed out the gifts that God had given to me. They talked about how God was calling me to pastoral ministry. They assured me that they would walk beside me in that ministry and be there for me if I took on the role of a pastor. And I did. I began my pastoral ministry just a few months later. And those three men spoke into my life for years until all three of them have had their spiritual homecoming. But they helped me understand who Jesus is, who Jesus was in me and who Jesus was in others. And that’s what helped me to form what I call this ministry of sharing God’s love and life with others. So, what they did was they entered my world, and they walked with me. Just as I quoted from John 13:34, they walked with me. They were constantly giving me encouragement affirmation guidance and even correction They loved me the way Jesus loved me. I’ll never forget them, and I’ve tried really hard to pattern my life after their example. So, I understand when Paul said to Timothy, “Follow me as I follow Christ.” I think that’s a really good phrase, and these men did that. I followed them as they followed Christ, and it’s helped me form the way I do ministry. [00:19:09] Anthony: Thank God for those three men. You know as we’re recording this, Rick, we’re in the season of Advent (though the passages we’re looking at are post Epiphany). And in the season of Advent, we often proclaim the gospel found in Luke 1. It’s often referred to as Mary’s Magnificat where she encounters her cousin Elizabeth in her home. And Mary had not been telling anyone that she was pregnant, with child, and what the angel had told her. But as soon as she walks in, there is this recognition by Elizabeth and the child within her. And she affirms Mary. “You are with child. And that child is blessed, and I’m just amazed that you came to see me.” (paraphrased) and Mary hadn’t told her that. But it’s like those three men speaking into your life, affirming and confirming what the Lord is doing by the Spirit and having others recognize that, to have the observation of the Spirit, to see it. It’s really powerful. So, I appreciate you sharing that story. [00:20:10] Rick: And Anthony, one of the things that just struck me as you were telling that story, and I think I read this recently. It’s fascinating that the very first being to worship and leap in joy for Jesus was a fetus. Isn’t that amazing? That’s how powerful God is. That the something in that fetus just experienced the joy and made it leap in Elizabeth’s womb. I find that just fascinating [00:20:38] Anthony: It is fascinating! Rocks can cry out and fetuses can proclaim the truth. Hallelujah. Praise god. Let’s transition to our second pericope of the month. It is 1 Corinthians 15:1-11. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Fifth Sunday after Epiphany on February 9. Rick, would you read it for us, please? [00:21:02] Rick: I’d be happy to. Now I want you to understand, brothers and sisters, the good news that I proclaimed to you, which you in turn received, in which also you stand, 2 through which also you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message that I proclaimed to you—unless you have come to believe in vain. 3 For I handed on to you as of first importance what I in turn had received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the scriptures 4 and that he was buried and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the scriptures 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I but the grace of God that is with me. 11 Whether then it was I or they, so we proclaim and so you believed. [00:22:23] Anthony: ” Though it was not I, but the grace of God.” Hallelujah. Rick, I think to the detriment of formation and discipleship as people of God, too often salvation has been reduced down to a single decision of faith. You might call it a “one and done” salvation. But Paul refers to being saved in verse 2; it’s an ongoing reality and act of God. Would you tell us more about this ongoing salvation? [00:22:45] Rick: Yeah, it’s really an interesting, I think, a question a lot of people ask, Anthony, is, am I saved or am I being saved? And the answer is yes. There, we’ll just stop there. [00:22:56] Anthony: Yes. [00:22:57] Rick: Or would you like more? Because see, it’s both in the context here. Paul is talking about the resurrection. And he shares details about the resurrection here that nowhere else you find in Scripture. He talks about how many people saw Jesus after His resurrection. He shares a sequence we hadn’t seen in previous texts. He emphasizes that the truth of the resurrection is the truth upon which you stand, and upon which rests your salvation. Now salvation was a big topic to Paul, and he refers to it in most of his books. And to believers in Ephesus, he said, for it is by grace you have been saved through faith. And of course, there is past tense. This is not from yourselves. It is a gift of God, not by work, so that no one can boast. This is referred to as justification. In other words, God pronounces a person to be righteous. You remember in the letter to the Corinthians, he says, we hate, God gives us the righteousness of Jesus Christ. So, it’s a gift. It’s a gift to all who believe in the one who gives the gift. And I say that because you can’t believe in the gift if you don’t believe in the gift giver. So, God gives us Christ’s righteousness. That’s a free gift. That’s the one and done salvation that some people refer to. But let’s be honest. Though God declares us righteous, we still sin. At least I do. And I think I heard you say earlier that you struggle as well. [00:24:29] Anthony: But I think that’s being edited out. So, I’m not sure that I said it. No, I did. [00:24:36] Rick: Yeah, because I know you. So, in other words, Anthony, we still have thoughts that we shouldn’t have and we don’t want to have. We still do things we should not do and we don’t want to do. Paul talked about the struggle in Romans 7. We still struggle with the power of sin. And here’s the key: in our relationship with Jesus, we are being saved. Get that! We are being saved from the power of sin. This is referred to as sanctification. In other words, sin tries to control us, but it can’t. Because we now don’t belong to sin, we belong to God who has declared us righteous. And sin can’t control us because of the resurrection, because Jesus rose from the grave and destroyed all that was holding us back. Paul emphasizes in this passage that he works harder than most, but that’s not what saves him. We are saved because Jesus rose from the grave, and this is of first importance. [00:25:33] Anthony: And it’s not only a first importance, which it is, but it seems like Paul repeatedly comes back to the death, resurrection, and the risen and ascended Christ. Maybe you’ve already been touching on this, but maybe we can dive in a little further. If he’s already told us this, why does he repeatedly come back to the reality of the death, resurrection, and risen Christ? [00:25:58] Rick: Anthony, if you’re like me and I think you are, you have a lot of important things in your life, right? And it’s quite easy to let those important things become even more important and sometimes even more important than anything else. And when we do that, these important things become our primary focus, and our lives can revolve around these important things. And sometimes we believe that these important things might be important things that we do, and that those are the things that gain us favor with God, salvation even. And Paul is reminding us of that. In other passages, he talks about how he is more qualified than anyone else to be a follower of God, but that doesn’t qualify him. His heritage, his actions don’t qualify him. What qualifies him is God’s grace. And he continually points this out because we often fall into the trap that we believe it’s something we do and something we need to do better. And Paul is continuing to remind us that Christ is a first importance. There’s nothing more important than knowing the power of His death, resurrection, and return. Because let’s think about it. Without His death we would not have forgiveness, right? Without His resurrection, we wouldn’t have hope in our own resurrection or a future. Without His return, we wouldn’t have hope that our resurrection leads to living in kingdom life with Him as king and entering that future time of no more pain, tears, sorrow, and death. So, I am a person that needs constant reminders of what is of first importance to keep me grounded. That keeps me looking to the Father, Son, and the Spirit rather than looking to myself. [00:27:46] Anthony: Yeah. Amen. And amen to that. And you were talking about forgiveness and our own resurrection and the return of Christ. I want to remind our listeners when we talk about return, we’re not talking about the absence of God. God is with us. Jesus made the promise that He is with us, but we are longing for that reappearance, that second coming, the Parousia in Scripture that will bring fulfillment of all things. And Epiphany is one of those times where we really recognize we’re living in between the times, longing for the culmination of the kingdom. And one of the things that we see in God’s resurrection in Jesus Christ and the forgiveness of sins, we still face the consequences of those sins, right? Even though it does not hold us down, and it is not our future, and sin has no future in God’s kingdom, we aren’t saved from feeling the pain. The pain of the consequences when I do something wrong, when I harm a friend, I feel that. I recognize it as sin. And I think that’s good in terms of our being conformed to the image of Christ. But thanks be to God that we can keep going back to His death and resurrection, which would reveal so powerfully God’s love made manifest in Jesus. Thank you. [00:29:11] Rick: I agree, Anthony. I think one of the things that we need to remind ourselves is that every single day that we wake up is a new day with God, and He has cleansed us of the day before. And as you said, that doesn’t mean that we don’t need to go back and repair some relationships, because we do things that hurt other people. But in Christ, we are new, we are renewed every day. And that is the proof that He lives in us, as you were talking about. And there is a misnomer that, God is off somewhere, and we all await His return, and then everything will change. Everything will change, but the truth is, He is changing us now, by living in us through the Spirit. Honestly, that is what enables us to love people like He loves us. We can’t do that on our own. That is what enables us to see that we need to ask forgiveness when we hurt somebody. Those are the things that help us to realize relationships are important and I’ve hurt this relationship. I need to go back and fix this. It’s Christ’s love in us that compels us in that way. And yeah, I really appreciate the fact that you pointed out that it’s not just His return, He is here now living in us, but we look forward to that return with the fullness of the kingdom. [00:30:31] Anthony: Let’s pivot to our next pericope of the month. It’s first Corinthians 15:12-20. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Sixth Sunday after Epiphany on February 16. Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised, 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15 We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified of God that he raised Christ—whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. 17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile, and you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have died in Christ have perished. 19 If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all people most to be pitied. 20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. So, Rick, if you’re proclaiming this text to your congregation what’s going to be the focus of that proclamation? [00:31:51] Rick: The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the foundation of our hope in God’s kingdom. It’s the foundation of our hope in the future, our internal life. It’s the very basis of our faith in the resurrection of all — I’m going to say that over. It is the very basis of our faith in the resurrection of all to live with Father, Son, and Spirit for eternity. Something else, obviously we cannot grasp. So, I would preach this passage with the theme that Jesus and His resurrection is the center of the center. It is the center of life. It is the center of the universe. It is the center of our reason for being created. It is the center of our identity as the beloved of God, the center of our hope, the center of our future. If Jesus was not raised, we would have nothing. Life would simply be about the here and now. And that’s not a lot. Now for some that doesn’t sound so bad, after all; they see health, wealth, comfort and peace as the main goals in life. And Anthony, I have atheist friends who seem content that this life is all there is. But I see a sadness in them as they age, or maybe a longing for something more. And when I talk about having health, wealth, comfort, and peace, it’s relative, isn’t it? [00:33:10] Anthony: Sure. [00:33:11] Rick: So much depends on where you live, what culture, government you live under. There are so many around the world who have poor health, who live in poverty and in adverse conditions, who live in hostile environments. Without Jesus, what is their purpose? What is their hope? Without the hope of the resurrection, many who are born in misery, live in misery, and die in misery and you have to ask is this all there is to life? Maybe in the physical realm for some but God has a blessed plan for all in Christ He is the center of the center for every man woman and child alive, whether they realize it or not. And I think that’s why Paul said preaching Christ and His resurrection is of first importance because it is the center of our faith. [00:33:54] Anthony: I think it’s one of the reasons why the poor, the destitute, the oppressed, the marginalized are often the first to receive the gospel with glad tidings, gladness, because they have experienced all that is wrong in the here and now, all that is broken, all that is dark, and they’re crying out for the light. And so, we have so much to learn from people that receive the gospel — to use your language — of first importance. There’s something powerful going on there. [00:34:26] Rick: So, I was in Nepal, and I was with a group of people. We were going to quote take Jesus to this group of people And these are the poorest of the poor in Nepal. They are brick makers. They make bricks out of mud and then they make their shelters that they live in out of broken bricks. And the shelters are usually about three feet, maybe three and a half feet high. And they basically use them to sleep, and they do all their cooking or whatnot outside. Anyway, we’re walking to them, and we get to the crest of a hill. And I hear this singing, and I come down to the hill, and I see this group of people, the poorest of the poor, making a shelter out of broken bricks and singing in joy because they had already seen that Jesus loves them. And it just changed me, Anthony; it helped me to realize, just like you said, that even the marginalized, everybody who has or is going through all kinds of different trials and lives you and I would feel uncomfortable with, when the presence of the Lord is there, there’s joy. And they see that there’s an importance. There’s something to live for. And I don’t know if that helps. But I just, while you’re talking, I just thought of that story and how that just really changed me and moved me. [00:35:48] Anthony: It does help. And I think one of the things we learn — I’ve had the privilege just as you have to visit other cultures — we are so blessed with comforts in the United States in ways that we don’t even recognize. And I appreciated what you said about quote unquote, we’re taking Jesus to other people, realizing how wrong that is, how it lacks humility. Because Jesus is already there. And I think one of the transformational things for me that the Lord had taught me is to realize that when we think of the least of these, I’ve got to think of myself. I’m the least of these. And when I encounter others from a different culture, a different way of being. That I’m there to learn. I’m there to understand God’s at work. What are you up to here, Lord? Teach me. And just like you did, it taught you something. It revealed something to you that you needed to see. Thanks be to God for that, that He’s always revealing Himself. [00:36:54] Rick: Anthony, anybody without Christ is among the least of these, right? And even as Paul said, I am the least of the apostles, we have to have that spirit of humility that we realize that without Christ, I don’t care how big my house is and how much I have or how little my house is and how little I have, when I have Christ, I literally have everything I need. And He is a first importance; I guess we’ll just keep going back to that. [00:37:24] Anthony: Hallelujah. Let’s transition to our final pericope of the month. It is Luke 6:27-38. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the Seventh Sunday after Epiphany on February the 23. Rick, read it for us, please. [00:37:45] Rick: Absolutely. “But I say to you who are listening: Love your enemies; do good to those who hate you; 28 bless those who curse you; pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you, and if anyone takes away what is yours, do not ask for it back again. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive payment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 Instead, love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, for he himself is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. 37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap, for the measure you give will be the measure you get back.” [00:39:14] Anthony: So, Jesus told us to tolerate our enemies. No. [00:39:22] Rick: Yeah. It’s easier that way. [00:39:25] Anthony: He told us to love our enemies. He told us to love them, and He did so for the sake of those who are listening. So, the question Rick is, are we listening? So, what does this text reveal to us about the God found in Jesus Christ? Because it’s telling us something about him. [00:39:43] Rick: Yes. Yes. Well, Anthony, I believe this is just one more passage that shows God’s character. Because this is exactly what Jesus did. He loved His enemies. He did good to those who hated Him. He blessed those who cursed Him. He prayed for all. He is love and He responds to His enemies with love, and He asks us to love as He loves. And as you said very well, or the question you asked was very appropriate, are we listening? As my wife sometimes tells me, Rick, you can hear well, but I’m not sure you are listening. [00:40:17] Anthony: Oh, go on, Cheryl, keep speaking. [00:40:19] Rick: Yeah, I know. Yeah. That’s when I realized the Holy Spirit is speaking through her. But I think we do the same thing, Anthony, as these believers do when we read these verses. How often have I just read the words because I’m trying to get my Bible study in or get a passage through or I’m thinking I want it. I want to spend so much time in the Scriptures, but I’ve got this other thing to do. And so, I’m just reading the words and the same thing is, am I hearing the message of the words? Are we listening to what Jesus is telling us? He’s telling us to love others as He loves us. It’s the same message He gives time and again. And what the disciples didn’t seem to understand, and what it seems most of us fail to understand, is that Jesus is reminding us that in Him there is no us and them. For the disciples, it was Jew and Gentile. And even that wasn’t as simple because there were some Jews they didn’t like. And certainly, anybody who was not a Jew was a Gentile that didn’t like them. There was a big us and them, and how many times do we do an us and them? In Jesus, there’s only us. We cannot win someone over and show them love if we view them as the enemy or as “less than” in any way. Anthony, I realize looking at my own life it often goes against my nature to love someone who seems to be against me, right? Or who believes something different than me. Or who has different opinions than me and that was really evident in the last several years in our political landscape. It’s just gotten more and more volatile, and it seems we have this proclivity to emphasize differences more than things that we agree on. And we make anyone of a different viewpoint an enemy. And God says, they’re not your enemy because they’re my children. They’re my beloved. And the God we find in Jesus has only one enemy, and that’s the devil who made himself an enemy. But Jesus came to save a world filled with different people, different beliefs, different cultures, different social statuses, different races. And He’s emphasizing that in Him, there is no Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female, only beloved children, who He came to rescue and reconcile to the Father. As you ask, what does this tell us about the God found in Jesus? I believe He wants us to get past all the petty differences and start treating others with love and respect. I believe He wants us to love others and to care about others and to walk with others and to enter their world and share their place. Anthony, you’re the one that has talked a lot about place-sharing, and I think that’s what we’re talking about here is walking alongside someone. In other words, to treat all self-proclaimed enemies as brothers. [00:43:10] Anthony: Yeah, I think, Rick, that love, by its definition, moves toward the other. It’s not passive. It’s intentional. And though I was trying to be humorous a little bit by saying tolerate, I think that’s where a lot of Christians land. I just won’t engage the other people that I disagree with or I’m opposed to. And they think that’s enough, but that’s not. God moved toward us in Jesus Christ. He pitched His tent and set up residency on earth with us. Everybody who was against Him and enemies to Him who had enmity toward God, He moved toward us. And this is the danger that I see in our current societal landscape that we just look for echo chambers. We try to find the affinity groups where people agree. And we just talk to them, and we’ll have nothing to do with others who have a different viewpoint. And I think it’s very, it’s dangerous and it’s not healthy. It’s not healthy. [00:44:11] Rick: No, you’re absolutely right. And the other thing it does, we have this concept of loving, I can love certain people face-to-face and the others I love from a distance. And that is a misnomer. Jesus doesn’t love anybody from a distance. And this talk about this concept of place-sharing, walking with somebody, loving them. How in the world can we be disciples of Jesus, helping them to see His love and His life if we are not interacting in a very personal and intimate way? [00:44:42] Anthony: Yeah. Some people have this idea that God cannot look upon sin. Think about what you’re saying. If Jesus, who is God, could not look upon sin, He would never have eaten or dined with anybody else. Every meal He shared with sinners, looking right upon them. And sometimes Christians get this idea: they’re doing this or that, so I can’t engage. No. Jesus went into it without becoming it. He went right into the heart of it with His love and compassion for others. And that’s what wins the day. Love is the only change agent that will really help people see the goodness of God revealed in Jesus. [00:45:25] Rick: If Jesus couldn’t dwell with sinners, He would have never come. [00:45:28] Anthony: That’s right. That’s right. All right. So, we’re winding down, we’re in the gun lap here, so to speak. And I find myself, Rick, enchanted by the generosity that we see in the triune God. God is the merciful one. God is the one who forgives. God doesn’t condemn, but rather gives grace and measures that are overflowing. So, as we draw to a close, tell us more about this generosity we see in the Trinity and our participation in that divine reality. [00:45:59] Rick: Yeah. Wow. Again, I will do this in less than an hour. Look, the Father sent the Son, and the Son came to rescue us and reconcile us to the Father. And the Son sent the Spirit so that He could live in us through the Spirit who always points to the Son who loves the Father. So, there’s a circle there. Do you see how I did that? Father, Son, and Spirit live in relationship of mutual love. admiration and respect for each other and who They are as God and the most amazing and beautiful part of this truth, They have invited us to share in the relationship that They share. In other words, when you pray to Father, Son, and Spirit, you are in the midst of that circle of trust, love, mutual admiration, respect. When you walk every day, you are walking in that circle of trust, love, mutual admiration, and respect because Christ lives in you. He wants you to experience the relationship the way God created it to be. And further, I would say Father, Son, and Spirit, the beauty and the generosity. They have forgiven us of our sins. They have washed us clean with the blood of Christ. They’ve offered us a way out of our guilt, our shame, our fear, and our doubt. And they have invited us to experience Their love, partly by sharing it with others and the opportunity to live with Them for eternity. Anthony, you can’t get more generous than that. [00:47:24] Anthony: And what does it look like? It looks like “a good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, spilling out into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.” God is generous in His mercy and kindness, His grace, His love toward us. He continues to move toward us. He continues to move toward you, Rick, in and by the Spirit. And we’re just so thankful for you and your experiences and ministry and life that bring you to this moment to share all of that with us. So, God bless you as you embark in this new chapter of your life. We’re excited for you and so appreciate the way that God is working through you to reveal the goodness of God made manifest in Jesus Christ. So, thank you. And I want to say to our listening audience, because many of you are proclaimers of the gospel, thank you for what you’re doing. And be reminded of this: study prepares the sermon, but it’s prayer that prepares the preacher. So, let’s be praying people before we ever enter into the pulpit. And may we continue to be faithful in proclaiming the gospel good news revealed in Jesus Christ. I want to thank our team of people that make this podcast possible: Michelle Hartman, Elizabeth Mullins, Reuel Enerio. What a fantastic team of people to work with, to bring this good news to you here today. And as is our tradition on Gospel Reverberate, we close with prayer. So, would you please just wash us in prayer? [00:48:53] Rick: Absolutely. Father, Son, Spirit, wow! What an incredible blessing it is to just come to Your presence and to realize that we are in Your presence at all times. You are the Daddy, the Abba, that we just are so blessed to know and to know that we are known by You. You are the brother and the friend and the Savior, that and so much more. And You are the Comforter and the teacher, and we are just so thrilled to just get a grasp of who You are. And these passages we went through enable us to understand Your love for us and encourage us how to love others. And I pray that as these passages are preached and they are shared with Your beloved around the world that You open hearts and You open minds for people to see their true identity in You, for people to understand how much that they are loved, and this will compel them to love others and to follow You in whatever way You choose. And so, I pray Your blessing upon all that preach this, all that listened to this. And I thank You for the opportunity to share these passages. And I pray this in the powerful name of Jesus. Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb . If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you! The post Rick Shallenberger—Year C Epiphany 4-7 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources .…

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Cullen Rodgers-Gates—Year C Christmas 2, Epiphany 1-3 1:10:36

28 weeks ago1:10:36

1:10:36

Cullen Rodgers-Gates—Year C Christmas 2, Epiphany 1-3 Welcome to the Gospel Reverb podcast. Gospel Reverb is an audio gathering for preachers, teachers, and Bible thrill seekers. Each month, our host, Anthony Mullins, will interview a new guest to gain insights and preaching nuggets mined from select passages of Scripture in that month’s Revised Common Lectionary. The podcast’s passion is to proclaim and boast in Jesus Christ, the one who reveals the heart of God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And now onto the episode . Anthony: Hello, friends, and welcome to the latest episode of Gospel Reverb . Gospel Reverb is a podcast devoted to bringing you insights from Scripture, found in the Revised Common Lectionary, and sharing commentary from a Christ centered and Trinitarian view. I’m your host, Anthony Mullins, and it’s my delight to welcome our guest, Cullen Rogers Gates. Since July 2020, Cullen has been serving as the director of development and membership at the National Association of Evangelicals. In this role, he established and leads the NAE’s development program while also engaging with a growing community of active members. Prior to his work at the NAE, Cullen spent 20 years in international service-learning and nonprofit leadership, including six years as executive director of Congo Initiative USA. He holds two degrees from Wheaton College: a bachelor’s degree in philosophy and a master’s degree in historical and systematic theology. Cullen, thanks for being with us and welcome to the podcast. And since this is your first time on Gospel Reverb , we’d like to know you, man. We’d love to know about your story, your backstory and how you’re joining with Jesus in his ministry these days. [00:01:51] Cullen: Thank you so much, Anthony. It’s a really great to be with you. I’m excited for our conversation today. And I’m honored. I’m honored to be invited on. And sure. I’ll take a few minutes to just share briefly about my story. So, I was born in Savannah, Georgia. I actually was adopted as an infant at five days old and grew up not knowing anything about my biological family. And that’s another story for another time, which has a really incredible development that happened in the last couple of years. But when I was young, I was about two and a half, my parents made a bold decision, moved with me and my older sister over to the Middle East. And I lived for about nine years in Saudi Arabia. It was my elementary years. My dad had taken a job with Saudi Aramco oil company. My parents were also strong believers and really saw that move as an opportunity to be tentmaker missionaries, if you will, in obviously a closed country, closed to the gospel. So, my dad was working for Aramco, but they had this sense of calling, a very deep sense of calling to be representatives of Christ there. And in my growing up years, in terms of church, I was part of an interdenominational fellowship there. So, there was one service a week for Protestants, one for Catholics and one for Eastern Orthodox. And that was it. So, lots of different denominations were represented. And I grew up in this environment where both kind of ecclesially, it was normal to interact with people from other denominational backgrounds or non-denominational backgrounds, but then culturally more broadly living in. It was a very international community. So, in addition to Saudis that lived with us, there were other Americans, people from Asia, people from Europe, and even other parts of the Middle East. And God really used that time in my life really to establish a foundation for the rest of my life, which was about engagement with people from other various walks of life and other cultures. And one of the things that I’ve realized looking back on that time is that one, what God did during that time was to really instill within me a love for building bridges between people. And that has become a part of my kind of identity as a bridge-builder. We moved back to the U.S. for my middle school and high school years, I lived in Augusta, Georgia, and during that time continued to grow in my faith. I had come to faith quite young, seven years old. But really in middle school was when that really became something that I was passionate about and started to get serious about. I had the opportunity to participate in some mission trips. And so, building on the foundation of having lived overseas and then doing these mission trips as a teenager, God used that to just further develop and further hone my vision for my life as being a bridge-builder. And then more particularly thinking more and more about missions as a vocation. I went to Wheaton College, and Wheaton was a really transformational time in my life. Partly because that’s where I met my future wife, Mandy. She was one year ahead of me. She’s from Northwest Indiana. We met there at Wheaton. But also at Wheaton, I had the opportunity to participate in a unique service-learning study abroad kind of program called the Human Needs and Global Resources program. We called it “hunger” for short — H.N.G.R. And if you were to take the Peace Corps kind of experience and repackage that into the context of a Christian College curriculum, that’s what “hunger” was. So, we took a variety of classes that were exposing us to the realities and challenges of poverty, hunger, injustice in particularly what we would call the developing world or the global south. So Latin America, Africa, and Asia predominantly, but looking at those issues through the lens of a Christian, from a Christian perspective. And then the highlight of the program was you would go and live for six months in a developing world context, totally immersed there. Live with a local family, participate with a local organization, and even do field-based research for which you would earn credit back at Wheaton. This was an academic certificate program. And so that experience, both Mandy and I participated in that, and that experience had a really profound impact on my life. After Wheaton, I had the opportunity to work with refugees with World Relief in the Chicago suburbs and did that for a little over a year. Absolutely loved that. And then God opened a door for me to return to Wheaton as a staff member as the assistant director of this program, the “hunger” program. And so, then for the next seven years, I had the privilege of walking alongside Wheaton students as they prepared for their internships. And we sent them out and then we brought them back and got to do a lot of mentoring with the students. And then also I had the privilege of traveling around the world to develop partnerships on behalf of our program with all these amazing organizations that we would send our students to. In 2008, God called us to North Carolina where we currently live here in Durham, North Carolina. Mandy did theological education at Duke Divinity School. And when we made that transition, then I moved into working with an organization called Congo Initiative. And I was with Congo Initiative for 12 years before then joining the National Association of Evangelicals a little over four years ago. And yeah, we have three kids, Hannah, Ethan, and Caleb. They are young adults at this point. And that’s a little bit about, yeah, it’s a little bit about who I am, who we are. [00:09:02] Anthony: You’ve had extensive experience, and by the way, congratulation on remembering the names of your kids. That’s always important. And this may be the most important question that I ask you since you started your life in Savannah, did you meet Forrest Gump? Did you bridge-build there? [00:09:22] Cullen: No. Unfortunately, I didn’t have that opportunity, Anthony, but that would have been, that would have been amazing. [00:09:29] Anthony: I did know part of your backstory about the adoption, and I was just thinking about the gospel texts we’re going to read in Ephesians 1 that talks about our adoption as the children of God. So, I’m sure that that text has life for you in a way that it maybe it doesn’t for some of us. So, I’m thankful for that experience you had and the experience that you had in international nonprofit leadership. And I wanted to ask you about this. I can only imagine you’ve experienced God’s goodness in the plight of others as throughout your travels. And though Gospel Reverb has a global podcast audience, many of our listeners are based right here in the good ole U.S. of A. So, my question is this: what can the American church learn and should be curious about from our brothers and sisters in Christ abroad? [00:10:23] Cullen: Wow. So, Anthony, you said we have about five hours for this podcast, right? So much to learn, right? Yeah, absolutely. This is really, it’s really a privilege to even be asked this question. This is great timing because I’ve just recently returned about a month ago. I had the privilege of returning to the Democratic Republic of Congo with a small delegation from my church here in Durham. We have a long-standing partnership with the organization I used to serve with, Congo initiative. It’s based in Eastern DRC, and I had the privilege of introducing my church about 12, 13 years ago to the ministry during my early years of working with the organization. And so, I went with my pastor and his wife just a month ago. At the center of the ministry is a Christian bilingual university. And then there’s some other community development, community empowerment programs that sort of flow out of that, but the university is really the hub of the work there. And they were celebrating — they’ve just celebrated their one-thousandth graduate in the history of the school. So, the school started in 2007, so it’s about 17 years old. And they were having their graduation ceremony. And then they also in conjunction with that, because of this amazing milestone of reaching a thousand total graduates, they also held their first ever homecoming celebration. And you have to understand homecoming is a completely foreign concept in Congolese education. To us, we’re used to it here in the U.S., but it’s completely foreign there. And so, it was a really big deal. So, it was a multi-day experience between the homecoming and the graduation. And it was just a profound experience for me, both on a personal level, just to reconnect with that ministry. It had probably been five or six years since I had been in Congo last. And so, it was a really amazing experience on a personal level. But also, to your question, it was powerful to, once again, be with God’s people in that context. And I should also note that we’re talking about the Eastern part of Congo. So, this ministry is based in the city of Beni, which is only about 50 miles west of the Uganda border. So, it’s in the far Eastern side of the country. And if you know anything about Eastern Congo, or if you’ve heard anything about Eastern Congo, you’ll probably immediately think of minerals and conflict. And that is exactly what’s happening even still to this day. There’s ongoing insecurity for the past 20, 25 years in that region. And yet there’s this amazing work of God that’s happening. And so, it was a privilege to be back there. And I think to answer your question, Anthony, there’s three things that I would say that the American church can learn, and there’s surely much more. But one of those is the centrality of community for how we understand what Christian discipleship is, the importance of community, walking together with brothers and sisters, and that relationships matter a lot. That we are not on our Christian journey. This is not an isolated, it’s personal. Our faith is personal, but it’s not isolated and private in the sense that we are just doing this by ourselves. And being back in Congo and being with brothers and sisters there reminded me powerfully of that. Another thing is that we serve a God who is bigger than we imagine, and He can handle all of our experiences and emotions together at the same time. One of the things I was struck by was how the folks we were with in Congo, they’ve all experienced trauma and suffering in one way or another. It’s really hard to find someone in that part of Congo who hasn’t lost at least one loved one or more to the violence that’s been going on and there. So, there’s this deep pain and trauma that’s there. And yet their capacity to enter into our times of worship in such an unfettered and uninhibited way was just such a witness to me. And the thing is that we were blessed both with these large gatherings that there was a lot of worship with just so much singing, so much dancing, so much joy. And also, we had the opportunity to visit with different people in their homes for much more intimate times of extended conversation, hearing more of their backstories. And as they shared those stories, they did not shy away from the painful parts. They talked about the pain. They talked about the loneliness that they experienced and even the doubts that they had about God and about faith. They shared all of that. They were so vulnerable with us, which was such a gift. And so, it’s not that they were masking the hard parts of their lives when they were worshiping and there was so much joy, they were honest about those. And yet they also, somehow by God’s grace through the power of the Spirit, I believe we’re enabled to enter fully into the joy of the Lord. And to me, it was a testimony that we can lament. We can both lament the brokenness of our lives and the brokenness of this world and praise God with vigor and joy, absolute joy! And that one of those realities does not diminish the significance of the other, and ultimately, we can do this because this is the kind of God we serve who can hold all that together. And then I think the last thing I would mention here, Anthony, is that just a reminder of how utterly dependent we are on God’s grace and mercy. You know we often don’t feel that need here in the West, right? It’s harder for us to feel in a visceral way that need because we’re blessed with so many material comforts. And many of us, particularly those of us who come from majority white culture of privilege, socioeconomic stability, we’re insulated by so many of the hardships of life. And yet the church throughout the global South, the developing world in particular, is much more familiar with suffering and hardship. And in the case of Congo, the insecurity and the anxiety from that ongoing conflict in that part of the world. And so, I was just reminded afresh as I watched, listened, rejoiced, and celebrated with these brothers and sisters. They witnessed to me of that utter dependence on God. And it was a reminder that even if I can mask on a day-to-day basis my needs, that doesn’t change the reality that I too, just as they are, I too am utterly dependent on God’s grace and mercy. So those are a few things that I take away. [00:19:02] Anthony: There was so much said there. Thank you. I couldn’t help but think I’d love to have you back for a separate podcast just to talk about these issues because what you said was profound, and several things came to my mind. Number one, and we’ll talk about humility later in one of the pericopes we’re looking at, but how we must embrace and embody Christ’s humility to learn from one another because it’s so easy to think that we’re coming in to help others to be the hope to others. Whereas there’s so much to learn and gain, to receive from our brothers and sisters. And I’m reminded of that passage about “doing this unto the least of these,” while I’m one of the least of these. And if I don’t see myself that way, I’ll lose sight of that. And I certainly appreciated what you said about lament and joy. I’ve heard it said that lament and hope are twin sisters, walking hand in hand down the road. And it is okay because if you read the Psalms, you can’t escape the lament, right? It is there. Ecclesiastes laments. God is big enough to hold that. And also, we see that the joy of the Lord is our strength, even in the face of great adversity. So, I just, I so appreciated what you said, and it’s going to tie in so well with the rich passages, these gospel texts we’re going to look at today. [00:20:33] Anthony: So, let’s go ahead and transition to our first pericope of the month. It’s Ephesians 1:3-14. I’m going to be reading from the New Revised Standard Version, the Updated Edition (NRSVUE). It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday after Christmas on January 5. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. 5 He destined us for adoption as his children through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace that he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and insight 9 he has made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure that he set forth in Christ, 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In Christ we have also obtained an inheritance, having been destined according to the purpose of him who accomplishes all things according to his counsel and will, 12 so that we, who were the first to set our hope on Christ, might live for the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you had heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and had believed in him, were marked with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit; 14 this is the pledge of our inheritance toward redemption as God’s own people, to the praise of his glory. That’s an awesome gospel text. So, Cullen, if you were preaching this gospel text to the congregation where you worship, what would be the focus of your gospel proclamation? [00:22:42] Cullen: I think Anthony, I’m struck by this passage. I know it comes from an epistle, it’s a letter. And so, I guess it’s prose, but it definitely sounds like poetry to me. It certainly sounds like a hymn. [00:23:01] Anthony: Yes. A song. [00:23:09] Cullen: It is just hearing you read it again, is just an overwhelming flood. the first thing that I’m struck with is God’s grace in all of this, and the language Paul uses. He uses different words to emphasize just how over the top is this love of God that knows no bounds. This language of “every” — we’ve been blessed with every spiritual blessing. The idea that we are chosen by Him. Someone once said, I don’t remember who it was, that God is rich in mercy and He’s a big spender. And that’s always stuck with me. I think I would, if I were preaching this, I would really focus on the overwhelming all-sufficiency of God’s grace in our lives. That we have been so utterly blessed and equipped by God in Jesus that we have no need to turn to any other person or thing or aspiration where we might find our ultimate purpose. That God’s grace and blessing is so all-sufficient that everything we need for life and for purpose and meaning is found in Him. It makes me think of, I think it was Peter, in John 6, he says, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You alone have the words of eternal life.” And that’s the sense that I get from this passage. I think another motif here is the inheritance that we have in Christ. And you see the word “destined,” which appears a couple of times. I love that language because it reminds us that our purpose didn’t start with our birth, but our purpose, our destiny, if you will, to use that language, really started long before the foundations of the world. I think another thing that stands out to me here is that God’s revelation itself is a gift of grace. And that’s a prominent feature in this passage. We see this language of “mystery” throughout Paul’s letters, the mystery of the gospel. And it’s mystery because it had to be revealed to us. And we were utterly dependent that God would reveal Himself to us in the way He has through Christ. And this really underscores what we would call special revelation. We have special revelation of God in Christ. That’s distinct from general revelation, to all that God makes available to all humanity. Anthony, I was remembering as I was reflecting on this years ago, I had the opportunity to sit in a class, Old Testament theology class at Wheaton. And I remember being for the first time, my paradigm of the Old Testament, particularly when we think about the law, the giving of the law in the form of the Ten Commandments. And growing up in Reformed tradition I understood this sort of distinction between law and grace. And it can be really easy to take that, interpret that in ways that actually are not faithful to Scripture in such that you, if you take it to an extreme, you can get to a place where you are understanding the God of Scripture to be almost two different gods. And I think it was at Marcion, the heretic Marcion, who actually promoted that belief that the God of the old Testament, the God of law and the Ten Commandments, that God is somehow different from the God of the New Testament that we meet in Jesus, the God of mercy and love and forgiveness. And of course that is not what we believe. We believe all of Scripture points to the triune God. And as Christians we can understand, we can read the Old Testament through a Christo-centric lens recognizing that Christ’s life, death, and resurrection is the interpretive framework for the entire Scripture. And the professor in my Old Testament class was talking about how radical it was that the people of Israel had been given Ten Commandments. We in the West — particularly in traditions where we are trying to separate ourselves from a legalistic or fundamentalist orientation to the faith that is rules-based, and we’re trying to emphasize the mercy and the grace of God over against the legalism — it’s easy for us — I’ll speak for myself. It’s easy for me sometimes to look at the Ten Commandments a bit askance to be a little bit suspicious. It’s not about works. It’s about we’re saved by grace through faith alone. Yes, that’s true. But my professor was helping me to recapture the radical nature of God’s grace in giving the Ten Commandments in the first place. And we looked at these prayers and passages from other Israel’s neighboring nations. And the various gods that they worshiped. And you read these texts, these prayers of these other nations to their gods that are basically unknown gods. And when you read them, there’s this sense of anxiety and foreboding in their prayers because what’s actually happening is they don’t know what those gods require of them. And it’s the not-knowing, it’s the far off and distant God, the inscrutable God that they’re hoping to appease with sacrifices or whatever else they’re doing, that there’s an anxiety there. Because they don’t know how do I satisfy this God’s demands. I don’t even know what’s expected. And so just an incredible anxiety. And so, when God comes to the people of Israel and, through Moses, gives them the Ten Commandments, He’s showing them, this is grace that I’m showing you the way how you are to be my people. And that clarity, that insight, that revelation is really quite radical. And ultimately, it points back to His grace. And then I love in verse, I think it’s verse 10 of this passage says, “as a plan for the fullness of time, to gather up all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.” And Anthony, that makes me think of Colossians 1:20, one of my favorite passages in Scripture, which says, “through Christ, God was pleased to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven by making peace through the blood of His cross.” And so, it’s that comprehensive gospel. So yeah. [00:31:14] Anthony: Yeah. You talked about God’s revelation being grace, and it was grace all along. God is not schizophrenic. He’s not of two minds. He was revealing Himself and His goodness, and it all gets wrapped up and summed up in Christ, right? That’s why the writer of Hebrews would say, “in the past He spoke through the prophets, but now He speak and has spoken through His Son,” not in pieces, but the full comprehensive revelation of the goodness of God. This is who God is, and this is who God has always been, and this is why this hymn, this poetry that you referred to in Ephesians 1 is so beautiful because Paul is just, it’s almost like he can’t contain himself. There’s so much good to talk about this goodness of God revealed in Jesus Christ. And this prompts us, this love of God, it compels us to live a certain way. In verse 12 says, “that we might live for the praise of His glory for those who set their hope on Christ.” Maybe give us some insights, Cullen, on what it might look like to live in such a way. [00:32:27] Cullen: Yeah, I think the first thing that comes to mind is joy. Scripture says that the joy of the Lord is our strength and thinking again about my recent time in Congo, as I was sharing earlier. And I was just witness to a powerful display of joy. And so, living for the praise of His glory. That’s one of the things I think is that we live in such a way that where, when we really begin to understand how much God has lavished on us — and you’re exactly right in this passage. It’s as if Paul, he just can’t contain himself, and he can’t find enough words and enough superlatives to describe the God that we follow, the God we serve. And so, there’s a joy when we really begin to let the truth of who this God is and the way He’s lavished His grace and mercy on us who are so undeserving, right? When we really let that settle into our bones, if you will, how can we not begin to walk forth with joy that is, again, not a surface level, oh, everything’s fine, but a deep sense of purpose and meaning and recognition of how much God has done for us in Christ. I think also living for the praise of His glory means that our works, our actions, the way we live really does matter. And there’s a couple things that I would highlight. One is, you mentioned this earlier, the role of humility. It’s His glory, the praise of His glory that we’re living for, not our own. And so there has to be at the root of this a humility that governs our entire lives. I also think with that humility, there’s a boldness, right? There’s a boldness in knowing, trusting, believing absolutely with every fiber our beings that God is who He says He is and that he has in fact accomplished everything in Christ. There should be an eagerness. We should live in a way where we are eager to point others to Christ as the source of our hope. So, there’s both a humility — and I think we’ll talk about this a little bit more coming up in a few minutes — of a pointing, pointing others away from us, pointing to God. There’s a humility and a boldness there. One of my favorites passages in Scripture, Anthony, is the verses that immediately followed the hymn in Philippians 2. Those first 11 verses that talk about Christ’s humiliation that he was obedient to death and even death on a cross and then went all the way down to hell itself and then was raised back up to be seated at the right hand of God, the Father, so that the hymn of Christ’s humiliation and then exaltation. And then immediately after that it says, “Therefore, work out your salvation with fear and trembling for it is God who is at work in us.” And that’s just such an amazing call to us to work out our salvation. And so, I think that’s another way in which we live for the praise of His glory is that command to us is in the context of Christ’s humiliation and exaltation. And it’s all based on what he’s done that we can then go forth and live out our salvation, knowing that it’s actually God who is at work in us. Think of Ephesians 2:10: we are God’s workmanship created for God’s works, which He prepared beforehand. And I love that verse for lots of reasons. One of them is that again our calling as believers didn’t begin with our physical birth, but God had actually prepared these works for us to do before we came into existence, which is just an incredible vision. And there’s other things I could say there, but I’ll stop there and see how you might want to respond to that. [00:37:26] Anthony: I’m struck by the paradoxical nature of the Christian life because it looks like humility and boldness would be on opposite ends of the spectrum, but they’re held together in Christ that both are true. Christ was the one who washed the feet of his disciples, of his friends. And yet he was within just a few hours, the one who boldly submitted to the love of the Father and died for humanity. It’s just — you’re right, they go hand in hand. And yeah, that’s a good word to wrap up that particular passage of Scripture with. Thank you. [00:38:07] Anthony: Let’s transition to the next pericope of the month. It’s Luke 3:15-17, 21-22. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for Baptism of our Lord on January 12. Cullen, would you read it for us, please? [00:38:23] Cullen: Absolutely. As the people were filled with expectation and all were questioning in their hearts concerning John, whether he might be the Messiah, 16 John answered all of them by saying, “I baptize you with water, but one who is more powerful than I is coming; I am not worthy to untie the strap of his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 17 His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.” Now when all the people were baptized and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased.” [00:39:26] Anthony: Once again, I was struck by John’s humility, as we’ve been discussing, and his accurate self-awareness that, you know what, I’m not the center of the story, but it’s Jesus who would come after him. And if we can imagine headlines in a newspaper, it’d be easy for him to be seduced by that. Is John the Baptist, the real Messiah? But he wasn’t. So, what can pastors, ministry leaders, believers learn from John in this text? [00:39:54] Cullen: John had a clear understanding of his identity and his purpose. He recognized his role. He was faithful to fulfill that role as being distinct from the Messiah. And I think back to the passage just before, when we talked about living to the praise of God’s glory, and John was a model of that in his earthly life and in his vocation. So, there’s two different baptisms here. One is the water baptism representing our death to self-rising to new life in Christ. And then John speaks here in the passage about the baptism that the Messiah will bring is a different kind of baptism one of the Holy Spirit and fire. And of course, we understand what that’s pointing to in terms of Pentecost and the incredible outpouring of the Holy Spirit at that point after Jesus ascended. But that baptism that Jesus is bringing follows from our water baptism, which reflects our death and then being raised again as part of God’s new creation. And so, I would say our ministry, as pastors and leaders consider this passage, it’s about pointing people to Jesus, not to ourselves. And I would say to the extent that people look to pastors and leaders as spiritual guides, as exemplars. Our purpose really is to direct their gaze to the one who makes us holy. Sometimes we see people of faith, pastors, and other leaders, spiritual leaders as being — we’ll say so and so is super spiritual, and we can so easily get caught up in other humans who we might put on a pedestal for one reason or another. But I think when we think about what actually makes us holy, it’s not our own works, right? 1 Peter 2:9 says, “but you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s own people.” At the beginning of this letter, Peter says that we’ve been chosen and destined by God, the Father, sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to the Son. And so, this work of sanctification is something that has been done for us and in us. And it’s a clear recognition that whatever holiness we have is ultimately actually a gift of grace from the One who has made us holy. And so, I think this is just helps to reinforce that our calling is to point people to Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5. I just love that chapter. It’s so rich in terms of a paradigm for what it means to live the Christian life. And it talks about how we are representatives and ambassadors of God, ambassadors of the kingdom. We are ambassadors for Christ since God is making His appeal through us. That’s 2 Corinthians 5:20. And so really the ultimate goal is that we are being formed into the image of Jesus Christ, right? So, any imitation of leaders here on earth should really be with that end in mind, that it’s about being formed, being made into the image of Christ. [00:43:56] Anthony: And I can’t help but think of John 1, this same John, the baptizer, has his followers, and they’re listening to him and Jesus walks by and immediately, without hesitation, Scripture points us to John pointing away from himself and saying, “Look, the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” And the followers get up to follow Jesus. And that’s the way it should be instead of trying to hold these people as my followers. They’re being formed in the image of Christ, not me and not you. And we would do well to follow John’s example, would we not, in pointing away from ourselves to Jesus? And as we do that, we still looked at Jesus. We’re going to celebrate on this day, the baptism of our Lord. And I’m just curious from your perspective why was the perfect One baptized and why is it good news for us? [00:44:58] Cullen: Yeah, that’s a great question and just wanted to say to your point there a minute ago, Anthony, amen to the pointing people to the Lamb of God. So yeah, Jesus baptism. It is a curious thing, right? And the much smarter people than me have written much more than I have about this. But there’s a couple things that as I reflect on this that I think are significant. Yeah. One is that Jesus’ baptism in a way reflects His complete identification with the human condition, with human beings, taking on human flesh with all of its limitations and making Himself subject to the lived experience of humanity, including temptation of various sorts. I think the baptism of Jesus also represents His utter dependence on God the Father and on our behalf. And then what immediately follows in this passage after His baptism, God speaks over Him. “You are my Son, the beloved. With you, I am well pleased.” I think the posture and practice of submission to God prepares us to receive the unconditional love of God in a way that grounds us in our true identity as beloved children. And for me, Jesus baptism exemplifies this, but it’s more than just a metaphorical paradigm for us to emulate: look, Jesus got baptized, and so now we should be baptized. I think it maybe more importantly shows us how completely — and this goes back to the point I made just a moment ago — just how completely Jesus entered into the human identity, expressing absolute, total solidarity with each of us human beings in His reliance on God’s love and mercy and the incarnation. This is what grounds the incarnation and the mystery that Jesus was fully God and fully man. And our redemption is complete because of this reality. The early church fathers emphasized how critical this is. I think it was Gregory of Nazianzus who said, “What has not been assumed has not been healed.” It is what is united to God’s divinity that is saved. And so that is just such a powerful summation of why the Incarnation matters. And it matters because God has come to redeem and to heal the entirety of human life and experience. And I just think what tremendously good news this is for us. [00:48:11] Anthony: Amen and amen. And thank you, Lord Jesus, that You did assume our fallen, sin sick humanity into Yourself to heal it, not only as the great physician, but You became the patient. You became one of us and took it upon Yourself. We praise You. And I always loved hearing Gregory Nazianzus quoted because he was known even among his peers as the theologian, not just a theologian; he was a teacher of teachers in his day. [00:48:50] Anthony: Let’s pivot to our next passage. It’s 1 Corinthians 12:1-11. It is a Revised Common Lectionary passage for the second Sunday after Epiphany on January 19. Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be ignorant. 2 You know that when you were gentiles you were enticed and led astray to idols that could not speak. 3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says, “Let Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit. 4 Now there are varieties of gifts but the same Spirit, 5 and there are varieties of services but the same Lord, 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who activates all of them in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of powerful deeds, to another prophecy, to another the discernment of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are activated by one and the same Spirit, who allots to each one individually just as the Spirit chooses. Cullen, “to each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good,” verse 7, which reminds me of what you said about the Congolese people, just the high view of community, the need for community for the common good. But we live, especially in the West, in a “me” society where consumerism mindset is rampant, but we believers have been called to share what the Spirit has given to us for the sake of others, the common good. Will you tell us more, please? [00:50:49] Cullen: I’m drawn immediately as I think about this passage to Jesus’ words in Matthew 16, where he says, “Whoever loses their life for my sake, will find it.” [00:50:59] Anthony: Yes. [00:51:00] Cullen: The way of Christ, Anthony, is the way of self-sacrifice, and it’s the way of surrender. As you said just a moment ago, we live in a culture that urges us to, quote, fight for our rights, right? Jesus’ call to us, upon us, is diametrically opposed to this. He calls us to be prepared not to fight for our rights, but to lay down our lives and not only for the people that we like and love, our friends, but even for our enemies, because of course He paid the ultimate price and none of us were His friends, right? Scripture reminds us that we were, while we were yet sinners, while we were at enmity with God that He laid down His life and that He redeemed us. And I do want to just make a quick caveat here, Anthony. I think it’s important to clarify that I’m not talking when I critique the fight for our rights, I’m not talking about working for justice particularly on behalf of the poor and the vulnerable in our society. That actually is, I believe, an integral part of our gospel witness. That is the way of Jesus. As He announced His ministry in Luke 4, when He quoted from the prophet Isaiah, and He talked about sight for the blind and release for the captive. Those kinds of things are part of a holistic gospel witness. But rather, we’re talking here about how we as believers are to live in a way that our gifts and talents, our whole selves, can be poured out for the upbuilding of the body of Christ. I think this passage also helps us to pay close attention to how the Spirit is at work since the Spirit is the One that has mediated distinct gifts to every believer, And so if we really take that seriously, what it does is it enhances our dependence on one another as fellow believers. And it helps us recognize that our calling is not to live, and I referenced this earlier, it’s not to live in isolation as individual followers of Jesus only, but to lean into the community, our community of faith as members of a family, even more vital members of a body whose corporate witness of unity is the primary way that the world will come to know God. In John 17, we read that the unity that we have with one another in Christ is itself the way that people will come to know the love of God. In the West, in particular, we’ve read so much of the Bible through an individualist lens, but much of it was actually written to and for a corporate audience as the gathered people of God, hearing the word together, right? This is one of the many reasons why corporate worship is absolutely central to our life with God. Worship’s not just a glorified quiet time. It’s actually participation with the gathered people of God in praise of the triune God. And that’s something that can’t be replicated on an individual scale. So, I love how Paul talks in this passage about the way that the Spirit gives gifts to different believers. I just love that. Talk about the dignity of our calling as believers that we’ve been carefully selected for this or that gift by the Holy Spirit, and that He’s done that in such a way that we will then also rely upon one another because none of us has the whole picture, right? We need each other. We need to share these gifts so that together, perhaps in some feeble, imperfect way, the fabric of these gifts, woven together, will be a powerful witness to the world. [00:55:33] Anthony: By my count Cullen, the Holy Spirit is mentioned 10 times in this passage. And we know the Spirit is leading us into all truth as Scripture reveals to us. So, what truth about God is being revealed by the Spirit through this passage? [00:55:48] Cullen: What stands out to me is the diversity of gifts and the breadth of the Spirit’s activity. The reference to the common good in verse 7 reflects a holistic and comprehensive picture of Spirit-empowered witness to God’s new creation. One of my favorite Christmas hymns is “Joy to the World.” And I love the third verse where it says, “He comes to make His blessings known far as the curse is found.” If you think about that, it’s just such a compelling way to talk about God’s redemptive work, “far as the curse is found.” We know that the curse is found everywhere, right? So, wherever we find sins effects there, we will also meet a Spirit empowered witness to God’s redemptive work in the world. And again, Colossians 1, God is in the business of reconciling all things to himself. I think while there’s a diversity of gifts that are distributed widely, we have to remember there’s one Lord and one Spirit who grants them. And so, in this, what we have is a picture of the unity of the body of Christ in its diversity. God is multifaceted with so many attributes. He displays His glory to the world through the diverse gifts given to His body. We can apply this even to — if we think about, again drawing from my international cross cultural experiences to a multicultural perspective of who God is since the body of Christ is global, the expression of these gifts will take on different flavors and accents when manifested even in different cultural contexts. So that’s one of the reasons why I’m so compelled in the opportunities I’ve had throughout my life to be engaged with the global church is recognizing that there’s so much for us to learn. And that the gifting of the Spirit, while it’s granted to different individuals, it also can have further sort of dimensions, if you will, when you even look at people who are in different cultural contexts. [00:58:06] Anthony: God so loved the world, the whole world, not just your country, not just your people, the world. And we thank God for it. [00:58:22] Anthony: Let’s pivot to our final passage of the month. It’s 1 Corinthians 12:12-31a. It is the Revised Common Lectionary passage for the third Sunday after Epiphany on January 26. Cullen will be our reader. [00:58:38] Cullen: For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. 14 Indeed, the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot would say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear would say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many members yet one body. 21 The eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you,” nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, the members of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, 23 and those members of the body that we think less honorable we clothe with greater honor, and our less respectable members are treated with greater respect, 24 whereas our more respectable members do not need this. But God has so arranged the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior member, 25 that there may be no dissension within the body, but the members may have the same care for one another. 26 If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honored, all rejoice together with it. 27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work powerful deeds? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But strive for the greater gifts. And I will show you a still more excellent way. [01:01:11] Anthony: You said earlier that our Christian faith is personal, but it’s never private. It’s not individualized, and this passage points out again and again, the communal nature of Scripture, of the body, that we belong to one another, and we need one another. And Cullen, for the sake of time, I want to ask you one question, and I’d really like for it to be personal. I’m looking directly at verse 26. And it uncovers the unity and the empathy found in the body of Christ. When one suffers, the body suffers when one rejoices, the congregation rejoices. So, here’s what I’d like to ask you. Have you personally experienced this shared reality in the body? And if so, what impact did it have on your life? [01:01:59] Cullen: Yeah, thanks Anthony. I think one of the more recent things that’s happened I mentioned this at the top about my adoption. But for 44 years, I knew nothing about my biological family. And we don’t have time for the whole story, but a little over two years ago with almost without any warning, I was reunited with my biological mother. And it has been an overwhelmingly beautiful experience. And we’ve just shared so much, my adoptive family has, I’ve been able to share with them, of course, my wife and my kids and other extended family. We’ve celebrated in this, but one of the thing that I wanted to mention here in responding to your question is I had no idea how much this experience that for me is obviously extremely personal in nature would bless other people and particularly people more broadly, but particularly people in my own church here in Durham who, when I’ve had the opportunity to share the story with them, they’ve been — number one, I have felt in a very deep way their joy with me. And it’s been a different kind of experience than when you accomplish something and people praise you or people say, “Oh, that’s great to hear,” that kind of thing. Like with this reality when people are excited for me, it’s something very different. I am experiencing people entering into my joy in a way where what was before very personal just to me has now become, somehow by God’s grace, personal to them. And people have shared with me how the story that I’ve experienced with finding my birth mother has strengthened their faith. It’s increased their joy. It has reminded them of God’s faithfulness in a new and fresh way. These are things that I just — it’s so far beyond what I would have expected. And I’ve been so humbled by how God can use story, our own stories and our own experiences, again, that are personal, but how He can extend the blessing of those and the impact of those to others in a way that really impacts their lives, and you just can’t fabricate, that is purely God’s grace and the Holy Spirit at work. And that seeing the way that my story has impacted others by God’s grace has then basically what it’s done for me is it’s reinforced and deepened my faith in a miracle-working God and my faith in a God and not only my faith, but now I’m more, I think, I’m in a position where I’m expecting to see God work like that more because I’ve seen how He’s done this with this particular part of my story. [01:06:00] Anthony: It’s so beautiful. Your faith feeds my faith. Your joy feeds my joy. We need each other. We belong to one another. And I so appreciate you sharing your story. I was remembering, I think it was Maya Angelou that talked about the saddest — and I’m loosely paraphrasing — one of the saddest things in humanity is having an untold story within, a story that the world needs to know, but it’s not been shared. And I’m so grateful for your willingness to share it. And so, we come to passages like we’ve read together and talked about together here today, God has chosen us, not only does it tell us about our place in God, but it tells us about God, that He’s a choosing God. And as someone who’s been adopted, I can only imagine that on some level, you know something about the chosenness of God, of an adoptive family. They wanted you; they chose you. That tells us something about the universal nature of who God is, that He is a choosing God. And He’s chosen us for His joy and holiness and to belong to His body. He is so good. And I’m so grateful for you, Cullen, in the way that you have articulated this glorious good news. It’s good news, not good news, if or plus. It’s just good news! And may we be bold to declare it and demonstrate it to the people that we encounter. You’re a beloved child of God, thank you for joining with us here today. It’s been such a great time having this conversation, and I pray that it blesses many. And I want to thank our team of people because it does take a team. We belong to one another. Thank you to Michelle Hartman and Ruel Enerio and Elizabeth Mullins for the parts that they play by bringing to bear the gifts that the Spirit has given to them as an act of grace to make this podcast possible. And as is tradition on Gospel Reverb , we’d like to end with prayer. And so, Cullen, I’d be grateful if you’d send us out in that word of prayer. [01:08:06] Cullen: Yes, thank you. Heavenly Father, You are a choosing God. And what an amazing truth that is, that You destined us for adoption as children through Christ, according to Your good pleasure, to the praise of Your glorious grace that You freely bestowed on us in the beloved. And as we reflected today, that is exactly the name that You spoke over Your Son, Jesus, when as fully human and fully God, He went down into the water and came back up in baptism and received the word from You that He was and is Your beloved. And we are also Your beloved because we are in Him. Lord, what a glorious truth. Thank you for the ways in which Your Spirit is at work, the ways that You are equipping the body and the members of the body in distinct and personal ways. Thank You for the opportunity that we have to lean into our identity as a body and to learn from and to benefit from one another’s gifts. Help us, Lord, make us more faithful to recognize those gifts in one another and to seek one another out as brothers and sisters in Christ. Lord, we praise You for this time and for Your word for the richness of it. Lord, would You help us to go forth more deeply rooted in Your joy more confident in what You have done in Christ and more expectant Lord of what You will continue to do through the power of the Spirit. And we pray all of this with joy and thanksgiving in the name of Jesus. Amen. Thank you for being a guest of Gospel Reverb . If you like what you heard, give us a high rating, and review us on iTunes, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast content. Share this episode with a friend. It really does help us get the word out as we are just getting started. Join us next month for a new show and insights from the RCL. Until then, peace be with you! The post Cullen Rodgers-Gates—Year C Christmas 2, Epiphany 1-3 first appeared on Grace Communion International Resources .…

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Elizabeth Mullins—Year C Christmas 1 29:36

28 weeks ago29:36