Friendship as Extreme Sport: An Interview with Kim Coutts

The Dareful Project

Friendship as extreme sport? If you're Kim Coutts, yes. After life threw her some curveballs, Coutts decided she needed to get brave about new relationships. And she's leaned into the challenge the way some of us would train for a triathalon or climb Mt. Whitney. In other words, all in and pushing to the limit. Hear her practical advice and what happens when you click yes to every Meetup out there.

Transcript:

Debra Hotaling (00:04):

Hello and welcome to the Dareful Project. I'm Debra Hotaling. Some people climb big mountains and some surf big waves. But my friend Kim Coutts, she makes new friends. She makes friends like a ninja warrior. She makes friends like you would prepare for a triathlon or you would climb Mount Whitney. In other words, she is all in. And she did this as a challenge to herself and her stories are amazing. So she's here with us today to talk about why she took on the challenge, how she started to make new friends, and what we can learn from this sort of extreme sport of friendship making. Kim, welcome.

Kim Coutts (00:48):

Thank you for having me. So fun.

Debra (00:50):

So all of us as we get older, I mean we used to have our kid friends. We would just hang out and play together. And then as young people and parents, we would be friends of college friends or we would be friends of our kids', friends, their parents. And now it's harder. It just feels harder. How do you find new friends? How did you get this way? How did you get started?

Kim (01:18):

I think I got divorced, and I think it's really easy to be complacent when you're living with another person. You never really hit that loneliness spot where you're like, oh my gosh, I have to do something huge to change this. But when I got divorced, I decided I would move out. I ended up all the way up in Portland sort of accidentally, and I was going through something and completely by myself, so I decided I needed to do something about it. And I dove. In my typical fashion, I have a tendency to overshoot things. I either don't do anything at all or I do too much. So I probably did more than I needed to, but I learned a lot and have kind of kept doing it. And I will say I listen to a lot of podcasts like yours, which are amazing. But I was listening to one the other day on goal setting and how we achieve goals and they really recommend that you can only achieve one goal at a time and you really need to focus on one thing and write down all the verbs of the things that are required to do it.

Kim (02:16):

So I definitely go through phases where I focus on other things, but I am back in a friend making mode right now. So it's definitely one of my top goals I'm focused on again at this time.

Debra (02:27):

And listeners are go, yeah. Yeah, we're all about friendships. I like making friends too. But I got to tell you guys, we are not even in the league of Kim. We were talking on the phone last week and this is how I got so excited about sharing this with y'all because she just started going down the meetup list. And keep me honest on this, Kim, but it sounded like you were just bringing up Meetup and just checking all the boxes. I mean all those weird things, all of those, I don't know if that's super sketchy things you were in, right?

Kim (03:00):

I am in Meetup is odd. It's a really amazing tool, but I also view it kind of online dating and it's a numbers game or a sales funnel as a lot of people might look at it. So I figure I have to join probably 20 meetup groups. I'll go to 10 or 11, I'll like five or six, and then I'll maybe make two or three friends from one of those because a lot of it you want it to result in five great new friendships when you show up. But it's not that easy. And when I was thinking about it before coming today, I realized that I actually haven't made a lot of long-term friends from my meetup groups that I've been in. But I do think that it spurs an energy and a focus and an intention that sort of puts that energy out in the world and then makes other things happen. Friendship is kind of that magic that you get to meet somebody and you connect and you like the same things. And I love that energy. And it doesn't always happen because of my meetup groups, but I do think that it puts that energy out there and then that magic happens where I just happen to sit down next to the right person in a bar or meet someone at work or public transit, whatever it is. I think it sort of sets that intention and helps you find them, even if it is in other ways.

Debra (04:18):

I like this because some of my guy friends would say that it was a numbers game with dating, you just kind of ask a lot of women out and then somebody says yes. And a lot of people say no, and it's okay. This kind of feels a little bit like the same thing.

Kim (04:33):

I actually feel like it is the same thing. I mean that magic, that connection with another person really is the same thing. But I think as humans we think that dating is, yeah, for sure you should be out there looking for your person, but how often do you run into somebody that tells you their main goal in life is making new friends? People just don't really prioritize it or they want it, but they don't really plan and go out to do it. And I do think there's still a little bit of a stigma to it that if you say you don't have enough friends, there's something wrong with you and you're a loser or that you're supposed to just collect them in life and they stick around forever. And then my case, that hasn't really happened. I have some great friends that moved away and we're certainly still friends, but I don't get to go and hang out with them. And then particularly when you have big life changes, I think you need to replace some of those friends. And I found out there was a lot of couple friends that were uncomfortable for some reason or another, and I still haven't quite figured that out. But being friends with someone that wasn't in a couple and I just didn't get invited to things for six, seven and my friends just immediately quit inviting me to stuff. So I had to figure out a way to replace that.

Debra (05:43):

It does feel weird though. I mean, I've met folks that I'm like, you're really cool. I would like to go have lunch with you. And I feel incredibly awkward saying, hi, will you be my friend and go out to lunch with me. Did you feel that way or are you just so brave?

Kim (06:00):

I do feel that way, but I a hundred percent make myself do it. I met one of my closest friends right now. She was interviewing for a job at my company. I had her resume. I saw that she lived in my neighborhood, which is kind of odd. I live about 40 minutes away from our office, so it's not that normal to have someone in my neighborhood. The job wasn't right. She didn't want it, it just wasn't a good fit. But she mentioned on our interview call that she was new to the area and didn't know a lot of people. I emailed her after the interview and just said, Hey, I know that this isn't going to work out as a job, but I thought we really connected and do you want to go grab happy hour? And that was hard. You are, it's just asking someone for a date. I think you put yourself out there, but then if someone did that to you and wanted to be your friend, would you ever be bummed about it? It's so flattering.

Debra (06:50):

No, and it's so rare as you're saying that, I can see in my mind the handful of men and women who were brave enough to say, let's go have lunch together. I think you'd be cool as a friend. That is so rare. But wait, but I have to ask, do people turn you down?

Kim (07:08):

No one has ever turned me down, but what people do is just disappear. And that's the other thing I've had to learn is that friendship. People say it comes in seasons, and I've always been that person then if I really like you, I want to hold onto you and spend time with you. And I've definitely had friendships that were around for five or six months and then they just sort of disappear. And I've realized that that has to be okay. But I always think that, oh gosh, what did I say? Or what did I do? And you kind of put it on your own self more than thinking that, oh, they're busy or there's so many reasons, but people do disappear sometimes, and that's tough. But I figured for a reason.

Debra (07:49):

And then there's also the second date question, I guess, because it's one thing to go, oh, would you like to go grab a glass of wine and we'll go and hang out together? But then you have to decide, do I like you well enough to ask you out again as a friend, right?

Kim (08:04):

Yep, a hundred percent. And I feel like once you get past that, once you've done something together three times, then you're friends and then it becomes normal and you don't have to feel weird about it. But I feel like those first three times are a little bit, you just never know. And I've actually really relied on Groupon. That's another thing that people sort of forget about and make fun of, but there's so many fun things to do on Groupon that I've had a couple, three or four friendships that started that way with Let's just both go pick something interesting on Groupon and go do that. And it gives you sort of a shared adventure. One of the same person who I met through the interview, we went on a sidecar tour, so we both gotten this motorcycle sidecar and went on a tour and some kind of a wine tasting tour. So it was an adventure that kind of bonds you in a way that maybe just going out to dinner or happy hour doesn't do.

Debra (08:56):

Have there ever been moments that didn't go right or you turned weird?

Kim (09:05):

No, I mean there's definitely mishaps. I think the last time we were talking, I told you that I was out on a date or showed up for a date and ended up getting stood up. And I looked horribly sad because not only was I all dressed up on a Tuesday, but it was around Christmas time and I just went to a cookie exchange with a friend. So I had this beautiful box of cookies with a big bow on top, and I had sat it next to me on the bar so you could just completely tell that I was getting stood up and it wasn't my best night. But this woman ended up sitting down next to me and we hit it off and she actually asked for my phone number. She asked first, which was lovely, which I gave to her on a receipt. And then I didn't hear from her for probably six months. And I just thought, well, no big deal. I had a nice conversation with someone. It helped me get over the fact that I was getting stood up for the first time in my life. But then she actually remembered my last name, my first and last name from that conversation, found me online and sent me a Facebook messenger request, and we got together and have been friends ever since. So you never know.

Debra (10:12):

Aw, and good for her. That's brave to give someone your phone number.

Kim (10:17):

Yeah. Or to ask for it, right? Yep. And I also, I thought about one of the other things, I've met some friends, but I have an Airbnb that I room I rent in my house, and that is a very immediate intimacy to immediately be living with a stranger. So there's definitely some times where people wanted to be friends with me in that case, and I did not necessarily, and that's a tough thing to navigate when they're living in your house.

Debra (10:48):

Whoa…

Kim (10:49):

She asked if she could borrow my bathing suit once for my jacuzzi.

Debra (10:54):

Wait, what?

Kim (10:55):

So there’s definitely some boundary stuff there. I had to really, and I'm such a people pleaser, my first reaction is, well, of course. And then I was thinking, I'll just let her have it. I'll throw it away. But I had to get my courage together and tell her that that's two things. I don't share bathing suits and toothbrushes.

Debra (11:12):

But wait, we just have to double click on this for a sec. I just want all of our viewers and listeners just to check in on the fact that Kim rents a room in her house because she can meet new people again to that extreme ninja warrior spirit for friendship because if things don't go well…

Kim (11:33):

I'll be honest though. I mean I do it for money. I'm not entirely crazy. I'm not that all in. That was also part of my divorce and making sure that I could cover my expenses. And when I moved out, when I got divorced, I lived in 17 Airbnbs in a year. So I saw the other side of it and then I thought, well, this isn't too bad. So I did start doing it when I got home. So I do it primarily for the money, but also it is a great place to make friends. I've had one woman that stayed for a year and a half and was only going to stay for a month, and she definitely became a friend and then another person that ended up staying for five or six months.

Debra (12:13):

I need to know so much more about this. Do you interview people in a different way than if you know that you're going to be opening up your home in this way to them?

Kim (12:21):

For the most part, people will book short term and then end up wanting to stay. So by then I already know them and I know that it's good because I would mean if you were thinking about the old ways that people used to choose roommates and that type of stuff, you would get together and talk to each other. So for the most part, people, the woman that stayed for a year and a half had booked a month and then just asked if she could stay. And the other one was a friend who's a soccer player that had made the team here, moved into team housing and then just hated it. He was living in the living room, they were shoving as many soccer players as they could get in this house, and he couldn't really focus or he'd be the best athlete he thought he could be so moved back into here so he could have some quiet and space.

Debra (13:09):

That actually sounds lovely, like a grownup. All the best of living in a dorm without the crazy.

Kim (13:14):

Right. That was amazing. He would bring the full team over here at lunch and they would use the pool and rest during tryouts. And I did not hate having a soccer team in my backyard.

Debra (13:27):

Well done. Well done.

Kim (13:29):

Yeah, not bad.

Debra (13:32):

So do you get mad skills doing it this way? Are you able to suss out a situation and go, this is maybe this is a maybe or this is a no. How does it work for you inside your head?

Kim (13:46):

I think most people just, well, I mean when I meet someone, there's that definite connection and I think, and in the meantime, it's really just about forcing yourself out there to keep trying. I went to a new meetup group brunch last weekend and I woke up an hour and a half before and all I wanted to do was go back to sleep and not go. So it's a lot of energy to put yourself out there, but I got up and I did it. So I think just a matter of the thing that really works is just keep trying, getting yourself out there.

Debra (14:20):

When researchers do work on friendships, they have something that they call, what is it called? Fast friends. And it's a protocol that they use to connect strangers so that they can watch interactions. And it's this method of asking each other, sharing little things that become more personal and more personal over time, but not oversharing or undersharing or making someone else share a lot and not sharing. It's kind of that even sharing of back and forth. Have you found that that's kind of the way that you approach a series of new friends or how

Kim (14:58):

I don't think about it that much. For instance, at that brunch last weekend, there were 12 people there and me and one other person, we just had things in common. She was going through something that I had been through and we just naturally, I tried to talk to everybody, but we naturally just started talking to each other and we exchanged numbers, but then we haven't crossed that second date platform yet where we've crossed over. But I'm watching the meetup group now to see, okay, I'm going to see if the next time she does something, I'm probably going to want to show up. That type of thing, I guess I don't really think about it quite as much, but I mean it definitely works. And it reminds me of those, they have those 36 questions to ask, make anybody fall in love with you.

Debra (15:44):

I went through those. I have to say, this says more about me than it does about the questions that some of those were so intimate that I don't know that anyone has ever asked me those questions. And I would have a hard time sharing them.

Kim (15:56):

Really.

Debra (15:57):

You're a sharer though.

Kim (15:58):

I am. I'm probably an oversharer. Yeah, I will just put it out there.

Debra (16:04):

Kim and I have been friends for a while. I remember you always being very open, but have you learned to be even more open as a result of this adventure?

Kim (16:14):

Shockingly, I used to be very shy. So when I was up through even my first year of college, I was painfully shy, but I wanted to be a reporter. I had gotten a job at a newspaper. I was dating my husband at the time, and he used to call me the shy Reporter, and I made up quotes for people for the first four or five months I worked for that newspaper. It was a small paper and no one really cared as long as you've made them sound good, he had a really big family. And I remember the exact moment we were in Vegas at a wedding and he had left me for about an hour and a half and I was bored. I was sitting there alone and they told people, go find the person you love most in the room for this next dance. And he was coming towards me and I finally wasn't going to be alone. And the last minute he grabbed his aunt and pulled her on the dance floor and we got in a giant fight and he said, if you would talk to anybody, you wouldn't be so bored. And I thought, you know what? You're right. And the next day I just made myself start and now you can't shut me up.

Debra (17:18):

Oh my God, I am laughing so hard inside my heart about your first job. My first job was in corporate communications and I remember being terrified to call people on the phone. And so I would write down everything I was going to say, hello Kim. Good morning. I would write it down because otherwise I would just be too terrified to call.

Kim (17:45):

And our jobs were similar back in the day where sometimes you'd be given a list for earned media outreach where you'd have to call three or 400 people and it was just horrible. I hated doing it, but you get used to it over time. And yeah, now it's just kind of part of who I am. And I realized that people really respond to those personalities more. My first husband was a little bit of a clown. He worked at a hula hands Irish restaurant for even a couple years after graduation. And he told me a story. The people who worked there, the waiters would be there for a long time, but the managers would turn over a lot and every night when they would get there, they would order nachos for their first meal and he would carry it out, wait till the last minute and then pretend to trip and put his face in the guacamole in the sour cream. And my shy self was just like, that's dumb. I can't believe you do that. I was almost embarrassed that he did that. And then in watching him and how he interact with people, people just love that. They love you to be goofy. And I noticed that people liked him better than they like me. So even though we're divorced, he taught me some really important skills and I definitely changed. I realized that people just react to people that are a little bit more open.

Debra (19:06):

A little bit of face on the guacamole never hurts.

Kim (19:09):

Exactly. Nobody ever minded people thought it was funny.

Debra (19:14):

Can you list for me some of your top 10 meetups?

Kim (19:22):

When I was in Portland, they were more interesting, a little bit stranger in great Portland fashion, and I loved Portland, but I joined the Strange and Unusual Women of Portland and we went on tour or to a devil museum. I went to sex yoga--talking about oversharing--and that was held at a midwifery and we did 10 minutes of interpretive dancing at the beginning. I joined a cold plunge group that does breath work and goes into the ocean dragon boat racing, whatever it is. I like the stranger the better. I am one of those people that has my hobby is trying to find a hobby. So I try things and I do it for six weeks and then I realize I don't love it and I move on to something else. So I'll try anything for a little while. So I did dragon boat racing actually in Portland, and I'm trying to start that up again here. I joined the meetup group was all excited, and then a week later they said it was shutting down, the organizer had disappeared.

Debra (20:28):

Oh my god,

Kim (20:30):

God love anybody that organizes a meetup group because so far that's sort of been beyond what I've been willing to do, but I am thinking about starting my own group now.

Debra (20:40):

Wait, so what would your group be?

Kim (20:42):

So I just read an article about loneliness and fact that it is as dangerous to your health as smoking 15 cigarettes a day or drinking six drinks. And that blew my mind. And evidently in the UK they have a minister of loneliness. They've actually appointed a government position to try and fix that. You would imagine it's going to cost a lot in healthcare costs. And they do these things called glamour parties. So once a month they invite the entire community and you dress up in your best outfit and just show up to a pub.

Debra (21:17):

So you get to wear fancy clothes and have food.

Kim (21:20):

No one gets to wear fancy clothes anymore now that we don't go out and have been bring food and just talk to new people. And they are trying to start one in every village in the UK. And I thought maybe we need a glamour club in San Diego.

Debra (21:34):

I love that. Alright, if you do that, we're going to make sure that we post it up on the site here so that people can join if they want to.

Kim (21:45):

That would be amazing.

Debra (21:46):

So we're not all as brave as you, Kim. We're not all as brave. So how does one get started? If you're shy, what would be the one thing to begin?

Kim (21:58):

I mean, I think the first thing to begin is admitting that it's a goal and making it a goal for yourself instead of just saying, I wish I had actually saying that this is my goal, I think is a huge thing. And sort of just getting past that stigma that there's not something wrong with you. This happens, we get older and we all need people. And maybe one of the easiest things to do would be what led you and I to this podcast is just reach out to people you care about that you haven't talked to in a while.

Kim (22:27):

You know that you already know them, it's going to be a great conversation and it feeds you in a way that then I think can get you a little bit more brave to maybe do other things. Then I would look at do three things, whatever it is, host a party and ask everybody that you invite that you already know and love to invite one person that you don't already know. I do that every year. I host a Gallant Times's party and invite all my girlfriends and ask everybody to bring somebody. I don't know. So that's one way you can do it with a core group of people that you already know or get one of your friends that has the same goal to show up to the meetups with you. That makes it a lot easier. So there's club sports, there's a lot of things that you can do short of opening up an Airbnb in your house, which is probably the furthest you can go or start something from work. Those people, you kind of have a sense for who you, like. Our job had had a movie club. Some people go out and see horror movies together, focusing on those core interests. So you know, have something in common generally makes it a little bit easier. And seeing a movie, you don't really have to carry on a conversation that whole time. That's

Debra (23:43):

True. I have some very, very outgoing friends and they have so many friends. And so sometimes what I'll do is just ask to be part of her friend group and then I automatically have all of her friends too.

Kim (23:57):

Yes, I do hate it when you invite your friends into your friend group and open up your friend group and then they don't do the same thing. I definitely have friends that still do that and they're like, no, sorry, I'm going out with my other friends. And

Debra (24:11):

Just, you bring up a good point though. Let's talk about sort of the rules of the road. What's reciprocity what? What's good manners when you're finding new friends?

Kim (24:23):

I have tried not to think about that because for a long time I was kind of like the scorekeeper that would think that people didn't like me as much if they weren't asking me to do things. I have some very busy friends with really big jobs that I will be lucky if I see them once every five or six months. And for a while that bothered me a little bit. And then I had to realize that everybody has different schedules and different needs for human interaction and I love to plan. And so I've decided that I'm not going to keep score anymore and I'm just going to go for it. But I do think just as being a nice person, showing up, that's the other thing that happens a lot in meetup groups, I would say you usually get about 30% of the people at RSVP actually showing up. And that's a huge thing for the organizers especially. So if you're going to commit to it, commit to it and go for it and then try to, if someone really goes out on a limb and tries to be friends with you, maybe it's your job to ask for the second date.

Debra (25:27):

That's really smart. And as you're saying that during Covid, I was part of a Zoom salon group, a group of women coming together and just talking about current events. And I was ashamed to learn that many of these women, most of these women, in fact, it was a hard rule that if their friend didn't reach out to them every few days that they were not true friends. And I'm like, wow, I can really let a long time go before I reach out to folks. So that was a really helpful thing to learn that people have different expectations of staying in touch, what that means. And so I've learned to listen harder to what other people's needs are on that

Kim (26:10):

Or even just asking. I had one friend that I literally will, she lives in Nashville, I will talk to her once every six months and at one point I'm like, Hey, it just doesn't feel like we're friends anymore. And she said, why? And I said, we just never speak to each other. And she said, well, you never told me that was a requirement psychiatrist. I got to hand it to her. But I'm like, alright, that's fair. I did never tell you that was a requirement. So now I would like to speak to you once a quarter in order to maintain our friendship. And she really tries and she doesn't make it happen, but she's got little kids at home and she's in a very different place in her life than I am.

Debra (26:49):

I love that though, that you were brave enough to have that conversation.

Kim (26:53):

I did not want to. But yeah, she definitely forced. It was, I was just a little Ben out of shape and just trying to exit and she's like, hold on a second, you never told me that's important.

Debra (27:05):

Oh my gosh. What do you know now that you wish you would've known a few years ago about the nature of friendships?

Kim (27:13):

I think all of that sort of give and take and it's really hard and intimate relationships not to make it about you. And I finally figured out it's not about me and people don't wake up thinking about how they don't want to be friends with me. They just are busy. Or the fact that some things come and go in your life and I've had friends for a couple years and then they just disappear. And that used to really hurt me. And now I realize that there's a reason for those things and just much more mellow than I used to be.

Debra (27:47):

Well, in fact folks that the reason that we're talking today is that Kim out of the blue pinged me on LinkedIn and said, what are you doing? And it was so nice to see your name come up in my LinkedIn messaging. So thank you for doing that.

Kim (28:04):

Of course, I actually went to a networking class and she challenged us to reach out to five people that we cared about every day for, well one day, one person a day for a week. And that was probably the best thing I ever learned in a network. I'm not a big networker. I don't like a group of a room full of people that I don't know is my worst nightmare. I'm not that brave or outgoing, but it's a good reminder that there's a lot of people you cross over in your life that maybe you lose touch with. But I always sort of like to talk to.

Debra (28:39):

And if folks want to talk to Kim, I'm going to Kim, if it's okay with you, put your LinkedIn profile on the site so that folks can know about you and reach out to you if they're interested.

Kim (28:51):

Absolutely. I'm always looking for new friends or a job as the loneliness minister. If the US wants to get on it and start saving ourselves some healthcare dollars,

Debra (29:03):

Can I nominate you? I'm going to vote for you.

Kim (29:06):

Thank you. I think that would be amazing. Or maybe we can start in California. I actually work in mental health and nobody is talking about that and I don't understand why it's really interesting that this is an issue that we know how to cure it, but we can't figure out how to make ourselves do it.

Debra (29:23):

And I think we're so used to it. I was struck visiting Greece that people would ask me, we hear that Americans are lonely, how does that work? They really wanted to know how you could be lonely.

Kim (29:35):

Yeah, they're so connected and spend so much more time together. And our wealth as a country just really breeds isolation. And covid certainly did not help. We all retreated into our houses and I think it's still sort of hard to come back out.

Debra (29:50):

Talk about one more thing, You made a really provocative statement to me when we chatted last week about you get to a certain point in your life where you have a home and it's lovely and you have enough money that you can just sort of wall yourself off in that home and that's your life. That same day, I was listening to Warren Buffett being interviewed and he said the exact same thing. So what's in the air here, Kim?

Kim (30:24):

I hope, I mean, it's happened with a lot of my friends and I do think that you have a choice later on in life when you can make these decisions to have your life continue to get bigger or to just sort of get smaller. And I think we all need to spend time around people who aren't us. And that is the thing that the Airbnb does for me and most of my family and my friends think I'm nuts. You're letting a stranger in your house. I'm a single woman and I'm here alone. And I have never been a big rah rah. I love all people person, but I will say that after doing this for four or five years, it has been an amazing experience and that 97% of people are amazing. But I think it is good for you to, people talk about getting out of your comfort zone and that's where the growth happens. And it's absolutely true when you have to get along with someone that grew up in a completely different way and a different place and a different culture and live that close with them, it does teach you a lot. And I definitely think that we need to be mindful about making sure our lives keep getting bigger instead of smaller.

Debra (31:34):

Well, you, Kim Coutts are amazing. Thank you for joining us today.

Kim (31:38):

Thank you so much. It was so great to

Debra (31:40):

Thanks for listening to The Dareful Project. Please follow like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible, tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [e-mail]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's what the number one.com. Thanks for listening.