From boardroom to big screen: meet filmmaker Melissa Davey

The Dareful Project

We’re talking with filmmaker Melissa Davey whose documentaries focus on the adventures of women over 60 including Beyond Sixty and her newest film, Climbing into Life. But like the women she features in her films, Melissa is unexpected. Find out more in our The Dareful Project conversation. Transcript: Debra Hotaling (00:05): Hello and welcome to The Dareful Project, a podcast series where we explore how cultural disruptors are re-imagining the second arc of our lives. If you like this episode, a gentle reminder to please review and share with your Dareful tribe. Today we're talking with filmmaker Melissa Davey, whose documentaries focus on women over 60 having great adventures and the women she features, Melissa is also having a great adventure and is really unexpected in all sorts of ways. We're going to find out how. Melissa, welcome! Melissa Davey (00:42): Thank you. It's so good to be here. Debra (00:45): So ground us. You did not start out as a filmmaker. How did you get here? Melissa (00:52): Oh boy. It's a long circuitous route. I will tell you, because I'm almost 74. So look at all of those years. I started out in nonprofits and maybe for 12 to 15 years, and then moved into the for-profit world and was a corporate executive for more than two decades, building and running a division of a large national company. And it was not my dream to do all of that, but it was where my route took me and things came before me and I grabbed them and I tried them and I did them and I enjoyed them. But honestly, when I was in the corporate world, I almost felt like an actor. I never would've chosen that for myself. But I just walked into it one day and it was a wonderful experience. But what happened was turned 65 while I was there, and I will tell you I was lucky that I was not in an ageist company. Melissa (01:59): There was no reason for me to leave at all. I could still be there today. There are many people, especially women in the company that are well over 65. But I hit that magic number 65, and I was reviewing my life and looking at the work that I was doing, and a bunch of things came together all at the same time. That kind of hit me in the head and I sat there saying, geez, is this it? Am I just going to die at this desk or what else I done? Good lord, I'm 65. I ought to take a look at that. So at the same time that I was thinking about my age and what else I wanted to do, the company was fought out again by venture capital. And I had been that through that rodeo a few times, and I knew that, oh my gosh, as one of the executives, I'm going to be required to sign up for another five years with this new sale. Melissa (03:01): And the CEO who I reported to said, think about it. What do you want to do? And it didn't take me long. I went to a meeting that week in DC, a congressional meeting for testifying about Social Security disability, which was a part of my job. And I remember sitting there thinking, my God, this is like deja vu, like Groundhog Day. I've been coming here for 20 years. The meeting isn't changing. What am I doing? Am I really making a change here? And so that was happening and work was happening, and I was getting older, and I was like, oh. So I left that day and I left early from DC I did not go back to work. I went and hung out with a friend when I got back here and she said, you need to come with me to pick up my daughter from school and then we'll go have some fun. Melissa (03:52): So driving up to pick up her daughter and take her to her horse barn after school, my friend said, I come here every day and I think they're making a movie over there. And I looked and there were lights and screens, and I was like, yeah. Oh my God, I love film and I've always loved film, and I am just so curious about it, how people made films, what it was like and what would it take and could I do it? I thought about that many times from the time I was a child. So there we are sitting on the side of the road and I said, I bet I know who it is, and she's looking at me, how the hell this could possibly be? And I said, well, it's a spooky looking setup, and it's an old creepy farmhouse, and it's Pennsylvania. It must be M. Night Shyamalan, it's got to be him. Melissa (04:46): And so he lives here and he does as scary movies and it looked like something he might do. So I pulled out my iPhone and I looked up his name and his website came up and on his website was a picture of where we were sitting. It was weird. It was this long driveway leading to a scary looking old farmhouse with all these crackly trees down the drive. And I'm looking at it and looking at his website and it says, M Night Shyamalan is making a micro budget film in Chester County, Pennsylvania. So I said, well, definitely it's him. And so there was a button on his website that said Charity Buzz, and I had never heard of that. So I hit it and it said, win a day on the set with M. Night Shyamalan. No. And so my friend is, yeah. Melissa (05:41): So my friend is like, well, obviously you have do this. So all of the proceeds from the bidding would go to the Milan Education Foundation, which I was reading about while I was sitting on the side of the road by the crackly trees. And the foundation was phenomenal. It's worldwide and they do great work. So I said, okay, so I can justify betting money to try to win a day on the set with him. Short story, I won the bet, and after putting in a lot of money against a dentist in New Jersey, they picked me and I was sitting at work at my desk and I knew they were going to call it. So I had my iPhone up and I was doing my work and meetings and my iPhones up and Bing, it came through Melissa, Davey, you have won a day on the set with M. Night Shyamalan . Melissa (06:32): And from there, within the month, I was with him for an eight to 10 hour day when he was filming his film, The Visit. And it was an amazing experience. I went there with absolutely no idea of what would happen. I figured he'd sit me in a seat and I'd get to watch. Well, he had me behind the camera asking me questions, telling me what he was doing. I was communicating with the crew. It was the most exhilarating experience I'd had in decades. I mean, it was amazing, so at lunch, yeah, Night and I were sitting together at lunch night. And he said, what do you do for work? And here I am trying to explain risk management insurance, social security, disability, blah, blah, blah, to this young guy, probably young enough to be my son if I'd had him very early. Melissa (07:38): And he had only been in film his whole life. So he kind of glazed over when I told him what I did. And he said, immediately, what do you really want to do? And I said, oh, I want your job. And he said, well, you better hurry up. And it was a silly conversation that today he would never remember, but it was when he said that, do you ever get that feeling in the pit of your stomach? Somebody just threw a brick at you. And I sat there and I thought, this is very odd that all of these circumstances have happened in this month with me thinking about work with me, going to DC with me, taking that afternoon off and going up the dirt road, and then sitting with him and him saying, well, what do you really want to do? And I just knew at that moment, I want to try to make a film. Melissa (08:34): And I went home late that night and my husband knew I was excited, and he was like, well, how did it go? And I said, John, I'm going to quit my job and I'm going to be a filmmaker. And he is known me for a long time. So he kind of just looked at me curiously and said, oh, okay. And then the next day I went to the CEO and I said, look, I'm going to give you a very long notice, but I am going to leave the company and I'm going to make a film. So I did. I gave a year's notice because I needed to mentor somebody to take over something that I had created for the company. And during that time, I had the ability and the time to figure out how am I going to start this process of filmmaking that I've never had any connection to other than a love of film and a curiosity about how they're made. Debra (09:32): As you're describing this, I'm thinking that this is a romcom with your own life as the love interest. Melissa (09:40): Could be. I mean, it could be, I mean, is a pretty curious story. And it's funny how it all happened, but I also, I tell you all this because things like this happen to people every day. It does. People are thinking about what they want to do and something might stop them, or people meet somebody and they challenge them to think about something a little bit differently and they might ignore it. So to me, the signs are already there all the time, but are we really connecting to them and are we curious about them and do we see them and do we follow through? Yeah. Debra (10:21): Can we talk a little bit more about that? Because it makes sense when you tell the story. It's cinema, it's cinematic, and it's obvious that you had to do this thing. But I think in real life, many of us have those aha moments, but they're so tiny or there's so much noise, noise to info ratio going on in our lives that it's super easy to miss that or to be afraid of it or to go, I can't already, that weird roommate that's in our head all the time starts talking it down. Can you talk a little bit more? Did you feel any of that? How did you kind of work through it? Melissa (11:00): Yeah, I really didn't. It was almost like a gut reaction. And I think that because I was older, maybe if I had, honestly, if I was 50, I probably would've said, oh my God, I can't do that. I have all these responsibilities and I have this, and I have that and my job and making money and saving money for the future. I think that if I had been younger, I would've let those voices stop me. But because I was older and because I was already thinking about change, I was more open to it. So seeing the signs, I see signs all the time, and I've seen them my whole life and many I did ignore, and I think back and I wonder, well, what if I had gone down that path? What if I had taken that detour? Would I have been doing something else today? Would my life look different than it does today? Probably, probably. But for the most part, when you are stopped, I think from going forward with any curiosity you have about a subject or something that's placed in front of you for sure, and it's usually around fear like, well, I don't know how to do that. I'm not trained to do that, so I'll just forget about it. I think that happens most of the time, most. Debra (12:25): So you decide to go, and then here's the big leap. So you're like, okay, I'm going to do it. I'm going to be a filmmaker. And then you think, what's next? What do I do? What did you do? Melissa (12:39): Okay. I knew logically from building businesses and creating teams that I needed people to help me. I needed people smarter than me that knew the film industry that would be able to help me make this happen. So I immediately started reaching out to anybody that I knew that had a connection in the Philadelphia area with filmmakers, producers, and I was introduced to a group in Philly and thought, well, this will be my first meeting and I'll throw it out there, see what they think, and maybe they will suggest somebody that I could meet with. Well, they liked the idea of the project. I already had the project in my head the day after I decided I was going to try to become a filmmaker. So I gave it to them and they said, wow, we would really like to do this with you. And that was Expressway Productions. And they were mostly young men, mostly, and I mean younger than my kids. And I thought, well, this is going to be interesting. They're going to be working with me, and I'm going to be the learner. And I was always the top dog boss. They're now going to be the boss showing me how to do this so that I can create something that makes sense. And so for the next almost three years, we worked together on the Beyond 60 film, and it was an incredible, incredible experience. Debra (14:10): So give us the pitch. What was the first project? Melissa (14:15): The first project is Beyond Sixty, and it is a documentary film telling the stories of nine women. And these nine women are from all over the country with completely different stories. They range in the age between 63 and 87, and really were highlighting their resilience, their life stories, and their continued relevance. So my goal was to say, look, if I'm going to become a documentary filmmaker, which I thought was the safest thing to do, I wasn't ready to write a script and try to do it that way. I thought, well, I'll tell real stories because I am a storyteller. I did it in business, I've done it in life, and it's comfortable for me, and people are usually comfortable telling me their stories. So I thought, well, what better to talk about than somebody like me, an older woman who's made changes in their lives, who've had good times, bad times, but they're still relevant and they're still doing new things and here's what they're doing. Melissa (15:19): And to put them out there on the big screen and tell the world that we are still relevant, we should not be ignored, we should not be invisible. And just because our looks change doesn't mean that our curiosity changes or our ability to do work and to do it better than we did when we were younger. So that was my whole goal of putting that out there. And it was an amazing experience doing it, and it made me realize that this process was really fun. It was difficult to learn in spots, but most of it was logical, and I guess I should do it again. So I'm on my second film now. Debra (16:07): And tell us about the second film. Melissa (16:10): The second film is Climbing Into Life, and it's in final stages of post-production right now. It just got the okay clearance review from my lawyer, and we're locking everything down this week, and it should be out for sound and color correction in the next couple of weeks and be ready to submit to film festivals in March. And climbing into Life is a story of one woman, and this time it's a woman who, she's now 72 years old, and she is the oldest woman to have climbed El Capitan in Yosemite National Park. And she just happens to be the mother of Alex Honnold of Free Solo. So if anybody has watched Free Solo, this is his mother, and her story is remarkable. And filming her was a joy and so much fun. And once again, another story of an older woman saying, look, I never did this before, but I became curious about it. So I thought I would try. And by doing baby steps, I led myself to be able to do this. And it's an incredible story, incredible story. Debra (17:26): You and I were talking about this before we started recording. I had the privilege of interviewing her back in 2021 for The Dareful Project, and she is incredibly smart. I loved our interview in fact, because there were a couple of questions where she's like, that's not a very good question. Here's what you should be asking me. And I just loved that there was a real high bar for any discussion that I had with her. Melissa (17:49): That is Deirdre! Debra (17:52): I'm like, okay, I'm bringing my A game for our convo. But folks should also know that she wasn't always climbing with Alex. She didn't start until later on. Melissa (18:05): She was in her sixties when she was 66 when she did the climb. So she didn't run until she was in her very late fifties and running started, and her daughter got her started running, and then she was so curious about what Alex was doing from a fear standpoint. She was like, I don't understand what this kid is doing, but I'm curious, so maybe he'll show me. And he was just showing her the Rock gym, the climbing gym, and that give it a try, mom, see what you can do. And she fell in love with it, and she's a very inwardly challenging individual, and she kind of liked it, and she knew she was weak in spots, but she thought, I can do this. Well, this would be a cool thing to do. So that led to, Hey, Alex, how about taking me up that huge rock? Melissa (19:01): And he's like, sure, mom, we can do that. And so she trained for many, many, many weeks in order to be able to make that climb. And she talks about how difficult it was. It was not easy for her because she was never an athlete. She was only an academic in so many ways, an artist, a musician, speaking several languages, an amazing a writer. She's an amazing woman. But to be able to in your later years become an athlete of sorts is remarkable. And it just goes to show you when you watch her, and I was with her in Yosemite and I was watching her climb, and she doesn't do it the way young people do. It's a difficult process, and she makes it very clear that I'm not trying to compete with the kids. I'm competing with myself, and I want to get to this point. So here, what do I have to do logically to get there? So her way of climbing might be different than somebody who's 35 and fit and climbs all the time, but she is so determined to do what it is and that she wants to do it and to get to the place she wants to get to that she does. And it's a remarkable story. Debra (20:19): I love what you just said because I'm reflecting on, I rock climb also badly, but super fun. But I climb with a lot of folks who are in their twenties and thirties, and so you're there and they're like, oh my God, I got to make this 5.11, whatever it is. And I realized I have a completely different metric of what success looks like. It's getting up there, it's sort of sitting with my fear. It is so much more robust and more interesting than just clicking a box. I love doing things now more than ever because I don't care about what I was supposed to measure myself against. It's a crazy feeling. Melissa (21:04): And that comes with age and experience, and that you realize that each one of us on the planet are completely different. So to put ourselves in a box where we say, in order to be considered a successful climber, you must be able to do this in so many hours or whatever. It's ridiculous. It's everybody's going to do it at their own pace and with their own little whatever it is that they need to help them get to that point. And that's the success. Getting to that point. Doesn't matter how long it takes or what you used to get there, like Deirdre talks about Mars and you know what Mars are and laddering yourself up that mountain. A young climber might say, well, that's not climbing. Well, I would argue she got to the top of El Capitan. I stood at that bottom, looking up at that monolith. It's amazing. And she got to the top and she got there in 13 hours. And I still, to this day, when I look at her and I look at how she climbs in her body, I don't know how she did that. It's an amazing feat to me. But she did it. And it doesn't matter if it was 13 hours or 50 hours or whatever, she got to the top. That's the success point. Debra (22:35): Amen. And you're like Jimmy Chin here of Free Solo because you were there too, except you're behind the camera. So tell us a little bit about that adventure. Melissa (22:45): Yeah, that was now, we were not there when she climbed, so we filmed her later after the climb was completed, but she has continued to climb throughout the world. And I spent five days with her in Yosemite and watching her climb, and I had a videographer with me that was a climber. So the climber, I didn't go up on the rocks with the camera. I had a climber videographer do that, and I was down at the bottom and doing all of the interviews and whatnot with her when she was on the ground or not too far up on the rock. And it was an amazing experience to have to be able to, I had to walk, I think it's a good mile into the bottom of El Capitan where you would begin to climb. And I remember the young climbers and the videographer saying to me, oh, no, no, no, it's just over there. Melissa (23:47): It's not going to be anything. It's no big deal. We'll meet you over there. So we start walking and we're walking, and then it starts, you're climbing, you're going up, and I'm like, are we going to go up there? What's going on? And so I was tripping and climbing over boulders that were as big as my house to try to get up to this point where the climbers start to climb. And I remember being out of breath, and I remember stopping to sit on rocks to catch my breath and thinking, oh my gosh, this is incredible. You have to build a complete sweat before you even get to the point where you start to climb. So I was completely impressed that she was able to make that mild trek and then start climbing so that I could watch her. And it was just an amazing, amazing experience to be in the beauty of Yosemite, which I have before, but I had never seen it in this light. I had never been there with climbers or gotten the history of Al Capitan and really felt connected to the climbing community there. It was just a beautiful experience. Debra (25:04): Oh my God, I can't wait to see this. Your own journey, though. It's hard enough to be a filmmaker, a documentary filmmaker, and to be a woman filmmaker. Tell us a little bit about what has surprised you along this journey? Melissa (25:21): What surprised me along the journey? Well, I don't know if it was a surprise. I kind of anticipated that being an older woman in this field trying to launch a first film or a second film, was not going to be well received. Not with people with balloons and megaphones saying, yay, go, this is awesome. I knew that was going to be a bit of a struggle, and it proved to be true. And when you get to the distribution stage and you're trying to find people who will talk to you, an unknown older woman about a film, about older women, there is not a huge audience that's ready to greet you. So it is a struggle to not feel bad about that, just accept it as the way it is, and try to figure out the back doors into companies and introductions to people that you need to make. And it's harder, I think it's harder to make those connections. And there aren't that many distributors that are run by older women. So you're constantly up against contacting distributors that have very young men who seem to be at the helm. And when you tell them what your film is about, it's kind of like, oh, okay, well, we'll take a look at it and let you know. So it took a long time to get a distributor… Debra (26:57): …but you did… Melissa (26:58): But I did, and not, am I thrilled with how the distribution has gone or what the distribution strategy is? No, but it was a real eyeopener as to what independent filmmakers have to go through in order to market their film. Because most of the distributors today for independent film put you on streaming platforms. And I am very grateful that I have a distributor that did that for me, and I'm on most all of the platforms, and the film gets seen, but they don't market it for you. So they charge a lot, but they don't market it. So you're stuck with continuing to find ways to get your film out in front of audiences that you think might enjoy it or be inspired by it. So it's a continual, the film's been done for three years, but I still continue to market it and speak in front of women's groups and whoever it is that wants to see the film can also have me there as a q and a after the film is seen. So I do a lot of that as well. And I will continue to do that with climbing into life. With the second film, I won't go the same route. The first route of going with an agent and a distributor was a learning experience for me because I had never done it before. This time around, I'm producing on my own, directing on my own, and hopefully figuring out how to find a distribution channel on my own so that I can keep a little bit more of the money that I threw into this wonderful project. Debra (28:46): How has these two projects changed your perspective on women and aging? Melissa (28:54): I've had the fortunate opportunity to work around a lot of older, very successful, active women. So I've known all along that women are capable and even more capable as long as they have their health more capable as they age. Meaning that their experience bucket is so full that no matter what challenge you put in front of them, they're able to call on something from the past that they experienced that helps them resolve whatever it is in front of them today. Very different from the time when I was 35, and my experience bucket was much smaller then. So I would not have the confidence level I think that I have today in my mid-seventies that I would've had, that I had in my 35 to 40 range. And I am able, and all of the women that I speak to are able to do tremendous new things in their lives. Melissa (30:01): They're not just doing what they were trained to do or what they have done for the last 30 years. They're doing new things and they're doing them in a big way. So I think what I have learned is that there is no age limit, and we should be promoting that as much as possible. And that's what I'm hoping that the films do that when maybe an older woman is sitting in front of the films thinking, I'm done. I retired from my job that I had for 40 years, and I guess that's it. I'll volunteer or do something. But maybe by watching these films, some of the women will inspire them to say, well, gee, I never thought about that. I never thought about that dream that I had as being a real possibility. And that's hoping to encourage women to at least have those conversations, not just with themselves, but with other people to help them see that there is a path to making change or making something new and trying something new. Debra (31:13): And I think we have a lot of guys who tune intoTthe Dareful Project as well. So this isn't a woman only conversation. This is for all of us… Melissa (31:22): Right? All of the men that I know that are over the age of 60, the message is the same to you. And I know many who have watched my film and were inspired by it. And I know many older men who are doing really cool things in their sixties, seventies, eighties, they're not stopping. I just wanted to really get women's voices out there, not to exclude the men, but because I think the invisibility of women is honestly much greater than it is for older men. So that was my purpose for really just the spotlighting of older women. Debra (32:01): And what you're talking about really resonates with me because you see, or you don't see women doing amazing things because they're just quietly being badass. They just go and they do their things. And so you may see them in the wild and not think, oh my God, look at you and what you're doing right now. They don't kind of care if you notice them or not because they're out having their adventure. Melissa (32:24): Exactly. I mean, there really is an invisibility factor. I mean, it definitely is there. Women become a bit invisible from the male gaze specifically as they age. And because of that, nobody sees what it is that they're doing. And because we are women and we're brought up for the most part, thinking that we should be quiet, polite, nice, not brag, not say what great things we're doing, it does go unnoticed. And if you stop seriously walking down the street, if you walk past me or another older woman, you're not going to know what their story is. And you're not going to turn your head and turn back and look and say, gee, I wonder what their story is. Now, if they were 30, maybe you would turn your head and say, wow, she looks really interesting. Wonder what her story is. Well, I'll tell you, the richer story is with the older woman, and we have to start listening to some of those stories to help us understand who we are, the choices we make, and what our possibilities are for the future. Debra (33:38): And what if those possibilities includes being an artist? What advice would you give for someone who has that hunger? Melissa (33:48): For me, it was making a list. Whatever your magic age is where you start to go, oh, do I really want to do this anymore? Or gee, I need to make a change. Gee, it's near retirement time. Am I going to just sit down and relax and play golf? Or what am I going to do? I encourage people to make a list of all of the fantasies that they've had in their life. I want to be a horse trainer. Or for me it was, I want to play the saxophone. I want to be a filmmaker. I had all these crazy ideas of things that I could see myself doing, but that I had no training in. Saxophone went down to the bottom when I realized, well, I don't read music, so I would have to learn how to do that first. And I think that's going to take a while. Melissa (34:40): So I think I'll put that down here, and maybe I'll do that in my eighties, I don't know. But if filmmaking just kept coming to the top, write a book, play the sax, make a film, and the filmmaking kept coming up. So whatever comes to the top of your list, don't ignore it, don't write it off. Start talking to people about it. Talk to a coach, talk to a counselor, talk to friends, talk to colleagues and say, I've always wanted to do this. What do you think? And you'll be surprised at how many people say, well, I've known you for 20 years. You can do that. You could easily do that. You have the tools in your kit to figure out how to do that, and I know somebody I can put you in touch with that. You can talk with a little bit more about this thing that you're interested in to just keep you on track. And I really encourage people, make the list. Find the thing that you're really interested in, and what harm is it to sit down and talk to people about it and see if you can take that first baby step to get to understanding whether it's a realistic idea or not. And if you do come to the point where it's unrealistic, go to the next thing on your list. But talking with people is probably the most helpful thing in anything in life when you're trying to make a decision about something. Debra (36:11): And having the courage to ask, because that is kind of the other superpower I notice of men and women our age, which is we know people and we know things, and we don't have to elbow everybody out of the way to get the next promotion. So it's all about making, oh my God, you totally have to know this person or make sure that you do this or Look, it's much more generous I find, at this age. Melissa (36:36): Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And for the most part, people our age don't feel intimidated with the ask. I don't care if somebody says, go away. I'm not going to take your call. Or, okay, I'll just go on to the next person. Where when I was younger, number one, I'd be afraid to make certain calls because I thought that they were going to say, go away. So sometimes I was frozen in time and unable to make that business call, whatever it may have been, or just crushed when they said no. Now when somebody says no, I'm like, okay, that's cool. And you kind of go on to the next person until you find somebody that is interested in your story and listening and maybe giving you some advice or handing you off to that next person that's going to help you. Definitely older people, men and women want to help one another move forward. It's a beautiful thing. Debra (37:36): What is going to be your next project? I know you're still in post-production on the current project, but are you already eyeing the next subject? Melissa (37:45): I'm going through this thing again where I'm making lists of do I want to continue making films or was there something else besides the saxophone on the list that I might want to try? And the reason that I'm kind of in angst about that is because I'm approaching 74 and it's kind of like, okay, if I'm going to do another big thing, another big change, how long will that take? And how long do I have? So I am feeling that pressure of how long will I be healthy and able to make big changes? So should I try to fit a whole bunch of things into that time or just stick with this? And my curiosity is big enough to say that I interested in writing a book, so I may do that, but I'm also interested in doing a short film. I've never done a short film. I've done two features. Maybe I could wedge in a little short film while I start this idea that I have for a book. Debra (38:51): So before we leave each other, what is the one thing that we all could do today, the tiniest little step that would move us in the direction of that top of the list idea that we have? Melissa (39:11): I think the one thing that we can do is sit down in quiet in meditation with ourselves and really ask ourselves, are we happy with where we are today? Is there anything we've left undone or unsaid? And do we want to try to figure out what that is? And I think the only way we come to those conclusions or ideas is by sitting still and by allowing ourselves to understand that no matter what we've done up until today, it isn't the end. And that there's always opportunity to do something new. And if there's some detours out there that we could take to help us find that, we need to start doing that today. And I think that that can lead you at least to the comfortable notion that you do have ideas and desires inside of you, and that fear is probably the biggest thing that's holding you back at this point. Melissa (40:17): As long as you have your health, I always put that in there. You have to be healthy enough to move to that next step. But to get rid of any fears that hold you back from trying something that you've never tried before, you have to address that. And you can't always address that by yourself. So reaching out to a coach or a counselor or a friend or someone that you can talk about as to why you might be stuck is very, very helpful and very important, and the first step in making the decision to try and do something different. Debra (40:55): I love that. Okay, Melissa, where can everybody find your films and you and keep track of you? Melissa (41:05): Okay. You can go to beyond sixty.com and you will figure out who I am on that website and get a feel for the film, and it will direct you as to where you can watch the film. The film is currently streaming on Apple tv, prime Video, Vimeo Voodoo, Google tv. It's on most of them. It's on transatlantic flights, so you can find the film there. You just type in beyond 60 SITY into the search bar on any of those streaming platforms, and you'll find it climbing into life. Like I said, will probably be submitting to film festivals in March. And at the same time, I'll be doing my research on how to get it distributed, and you can come to my website on Beyond 60, and there will be information in there as to when the film will be dropped. Debra (42:00): Wonderful. Melissa, thank you so much. Melissa (42:03): Thank you. I loved being here. It's great to meet you. I look forward to seeing Debra (42:07): You. Thanks for listening to The Dareful Project. Please follow, like and leave a review. It really helps. We're on all your favorite platforms, Spotify, apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, audible. Tune in Amazon Music, Stitcher, SoundCloud, and YouTube. And to connect, you can email me at [e-mail]. That's Debra, D-E-B-R-A at Dareful one. That's with the number one.com. Thanks for listening.