Episode 250 – Unstoppable Young Carer and Inclusion Advocate with Sarah Jones

Unstoppable Mindset

“Carer” what is that? You may well ask especially if you live in America. We call them “caregivers”. Sarah Jones was born in a small town in Northern England. Both of her parents had some disabilities that resulted in Sarah even at an early age becoming one of their primary caregivers. You will hear about Sarah’s experiences and how she felt that she never truly had what we would regard as a child-parent relationship. Sarah also had a younger sister who did not have a physical disability. However, her younger brother was born with disabilities including autism and epilepsy. Sarah began college to study nursing but found that she really didn’t wish to pursue that career and so left college after six months and went to work. While Sarah feels she faced many challenges and didn’t necessarily have what she would describe as the best life possible, she does point out that she knows where she came from by the choices she has made. In fact, she points out that now, as a part of Access Sport UK she works to help bring inclusion into sports to persons with disabilities and her attitude stems from her past experiences and decisions. She especially loves to climb and teaches climbing to many persons with disabilities. She works to get coaches to understand that just because someone may have a so-called disability it doesn’t mean that they should be excluded from sports activities. Our podcast time is probably one of the most intense and heart-felt conversations we have had on Unstoppable Mindset, but Sarah shows that no matter what our circumstances, we can be unstoppable and move forward. I hope you are inspired by what you hear this time. About the Guest: Sarah grew up in a small town in Northern England in the UK. As a young carer, she spent her childhood and teen years caring for her parents and younger sibling, all of whom have disabilities and varying levels of need. Her mental health, wellbeing and educational prospects came second to her caring responsibility and she had to navigate growing up whilst providing support to others from a young age. These early challenges shaped her transition into adulthood and, after leaving college education with few qualifications, she has worked hard to get to where she is today. Sarah has worked in the outdoor industry, adult social care, education and the charity sector and her journey has lead to a clear purpose and goal – to improve the lives of disabled people and their families. Her current role with Access Sport gives her the opportunity to work with sports clubs across the UK to engage more disabled people in sport. Sarah helps break down barriers for disabled people to access sport, and helps change attitudes and perspectives on disability, care-giving and those kids that are often seen as ‘troublesome’ or ‘a lost cause’. She ensures that the voices of disabled people and their families are heard through her a public speaking opportunities, and does not shy away from sharing her experiences in the hope of inspiring change for other young people from similar backgrounds. In her spare time, Sarah is also an avid rock climber and enjoys climbing with her daughter and friends. She is also an experienced inclusive climbing coach and works with a number of disabled climbers who prove that when the environment is accessible, welcoming and supportive, climbing is for everybody. Last year, Sarah experienced the unexpected loss of her younger brother who she once cared for, and navigated grief and guilt in the months following. This experience is something she openly shares in the hope that others can relate to the complexities of grieving for a sibling. Sarah also talks openly about her experience of becoming a mother, overcoming post-natal psychosis and how motherhood been her best lesson. Ways to connect with Sarah: Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarah-jones-3071a315a Instagram: @climbzuk About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! 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Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. I'm really glad that you have taken the time to listen to us and be here today. Unstoppable mindset is really a lot of fun for me. And I think for the people who get to come on and I hope for you, we get a chance to have conversations with people from a variety of different walks of life. And kind of never know from one week to the next or one episode two, the next exactly what's going to happen. That's why we call it unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet because we love the unexpected. It's kind of more fun. Today we get to talk with somebody from England, Sarah Jones, who among other things, is a carer. We call in this country, a caregiver. And I'm sure we're going to hear lots about that. Sarah was referred to us by excessive BS Sheldon Lewis, which I really appreciate. And he's bringing and has brought us a whole lot of interesting people. So we love to have conversations with the people that Sheldon brings. And Sarah, you're part of that. So welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Thank Sarah Jones ** 02:31 you. Thank you for having me. Thanks. Happy to be here. Michael Hingson ** 02:35 Well, why don't we start by you talking a little bit about you, maybe you're the early you're younger Sarah, where you grew up, and all those kinds of things that we ought to know about you and, and maybe even things we shouldn't know about you, but you want to tell us anyway. Sarah Jones ** 02:54 Yeah, so so. See, so I was born in the early 90s and Manchester in the UK, which is a northern town. And I yeah, I kind of grew up in, I guess what we would know, in the UK as a bit of a difficult area, I think in particular, it was quite an area of kind of low income. So it wasn't much really to do in the, in the local area. I guess. At the time, neither of my parents worked. So both my parents have disabilities, kind of varying needs of their own, which have changed over the last kind of almost 30 years. But when I was born, my mum, well still has cerebral palsy. So she's a she's a person with a physical disability. She also has a learning disability. And my dad is partially sighted and has kind of struggled up and down with lots of different mental health needs as well throughout kind of my life. And before I was born, so early life was at the time, early life you don't know any different when you're when you're younger, do you but then I think retrospectively looking back it was it was a hard time for for not just me as a child, but also my my parents as well. I think they struggled to kind of get the support that they need. And off the back of that kind of me. I struggled to get the care that I needed from from kind of who was supposed to be looking after me. So. So yeah, life was varied, I would say very varied childhood. So yeah, created Michael Hingson ** 04:32 some challenges. So did you end up being part of or a significant part of their support system growing up? Sarah Jones ** 04:40 Yes, yeah. So I think I was, I was five when my sister was born. And then we had a younger brother, who was born when I was nine as well. And I think most of my childhood memories focus around support being a support in some way, whether it be to their mother to my siblings, so And again, at the time, you don't know any different, I think being a young carer or I guess you would know, as a young caregiver, you don't really have a frame of reference because you're a child. And that's just, that's, that's how you're living. That's the way you brought up. And you know, you might be going out, doing the shopping it, you know, before the age of 10, or, you know, helping somebody go to the bathroom or helping somebody cook a meal, but it's, you don't think anything of it at that age? Because it's, it's just, it's Michael Hingson ** 05:27 what you did? Yeah, yeah. Sarah Jones ** 05:30 So I think both me and my sister were were really involved with, particularly my younger brother's care when we were younger. So we were involved with kind of supporting him to get to school to get dressed, to get showered to have really early memories of kind of looking after him when he was a baby, doing his nappies, doing these, you know, feeding them and things like that. We did kind of, really, we had a leading role really in, in his upbringing, and I guess I had maybe not as much of a leading role as in her upbringing as much, but but we do have a Yeah, it's not it's not a typical sibling relationship that we have. I think because of our Did Michael Hingson ** 06:13 you Did your brother have? Or does he have a disability? Sarah Jones ** 06:18 So he did have? Yes. So he, he was a young man with quite complex disabilities, he was autistic, he had epilepsy. He also had a learning disability. So he was a wonderful your man essay was with because he's no longer with us. Unfortunately, he passed away last year. But yeah, it he really, he really struggled to kind of engage in things traditionally struggled with school. And I think because of his, I guess, because of his needs, he, he then when he became anxious, he displayed some quite challenging behaviors that were difficult to deal with sometimes, but that was simpler, because it was, at the time, he wasn't getting the support that he needed. So, so for all of this kind of as young people, you know, we were children, ourselves, we were around him, you know, within in that environment, and it became just kind of that, like, that's what we got used to, we got used to kind of supporting him and looking after him. And just that was our family life. I think it was very different to family life that, that I know of what family life could be now, really, to what it was when we were younger. Michael Hingson ** 07:35 Now, did your sister have any kind of physical or disability? No, Sarah Jones ** 07:41 no, she didn't know she is a guest say it term typical, but a typical person that is she's not disabled? She's not you know, she doesn't. I think we've both probably struggled a different, like mental health things in our in our past, and we've probably had struggles with that. But But no, both me and my sister were I guess, you could say perfectly healthy individuals when we were born. Michael Hingson ** 08:14 In that sense, so But you, you did provide a lot of the support services for Wow, a younger brother, and your parents. And you went to school, somehow? Sarah Jones ** 08:28 Yeah, yeah, I did. I did. You know, still managed to go to school still did all of that. And again, it all this is all in hindsight at the time. It's, you don't think anything different? It's all just that's just what what it is, you know, you go to school and you come back and then you have a different family home life, I guess we're masters so we're very much kind of being the support network for each other. But yeah, I went built it. In the UK, we have primary and secondary school, and then I went to college and kind of was was okay. In in second in primary and secondary school really, like I remember some, some kind of, we had quite a lot of involvement from the social care services in during school life. So there's lots of little bits that I remember that when I look back now, I think, oh, that's, you know, that was a bit strange and lots of meetings and people involved and stuff, but again, at the time, you don't think anything of it. And then yeah, kind of passed. Secondary School. Fine. I got really good grades at the end of it, despite kind of not really being very present in my final year of secondary school. I think you're 11 which is the last year I really had quite a lot of time out. I was supporting my younger brother to get to school and stuff because he was struggling with getting on Trump whose public transport and things because of his anxiety And so I was taking him to school. So there was, I think, the second half of year 11. And I was barely there, but still managed to kind of scrape by my exams and then went to college. But yeah, I remember being in college and my dad kind of plan to go into nursing. That was my kind of always what I thought I could do. I think I'd always looked after people when I was younger, I was like, oh, that's what I'm good at. I might as well continue to do that. In adult life, why not? So I started kind of with that idea, I picked all of my subjects with that in mind, and just very quickly decided that it wasn't for me, and I dropped out of college 17 and went straight into work. And I've been working since Michael Hingson ** 10:48 really, what kind of work did you go into? Sarah Jones ** 10:51 So at that point, I went into the outdoor industry, so I just decided I saw this job, I was really struggling at home at that point, you know, 70, I was I was really trying to I was what I was going through a lot, I think with home life and really processing a lot of a lot of trauma that had happened really in my other life that had never really been supported through. So I'd kind of just wanted to throw caution to the wind and just wanted to leave. And I just came across this this job. I was volunteering at the time, I was the volunteer youth worker and kind of came across this job that was residential. So it was it was living where you worked, which was fantastic. And it was a being a climate instructor in an outdoor center. So just I mean, it sounds really impressive, but it's a lot of standing around to be honest. Michael Hingson ** 11:43 So what is it you did? What was the job? So Sarah Jones ** 11:47 I went off to be an instructor at an outdoor center. And just spent kind of the first three and a half years stood in the sunshine outside teaching kids how to climb and chucking them off high buildings on the wires and stuff. And I absolutely loved it. It was it was amazing. It was the best kind of I always said if it paid it off, I do every day because it was great. And yeah, I think I really found my love of the outdoors and my kind of love for a climate as a sport and kind of that really, I guess, helped me. In hindsight, I decided what I wanted to do with with the rest of my career really, so. Yeah, that was that that was kind of the start. Michael Hingson ** 12:35 So when you were in high school, and I guess grammar school, but mostly in high school and so on, did your, your peers other students understand it all? Kind of what your home life was like did? Did they appreciate it? Did it? Was it a problem in a lot of ways in terms of interacting with people? Sarah Jones ** 12:59 I think I had very, I had a very small group of friends at school. I think looking back I had a lot of people that I thought were friends and didn't really build that connection with people. So not many people actually care ever came to my house. So a lot of people didn't really know what life was like But what in this at the same time I didn't know the gravity of how different it could be really did have a few really, really close friends that were not going through similar stuff in terms of you know, having to provide care but but they were going through difficult times with family and I you know, I did I did have some really close relationships. Unfortunately, I don't I don't speak to anybody from school anymore, which is quite sad, really. But at the time, it I didn't really Yeah, I didn't really I guess I didn't really talk about it that much. Because I didn't think it was worth talking about really. I think in in the area that we lived we did. Because we it was a it was a an area that was you know, there was a lot of crime, there was a lot of kind of antisocial behavior. It wasn't a it never felt particularly safe and because we were vulnerable young people without parents to protect you. We did go through a lot in terms of our kind of areas and where we lived and we did kind of get quite a lot of bullying and physical kind of abuse from people and things and it wasn't it wasn't a nice time childhood really wasn't a nice time for either of us. But school was in all honesty school was okay. I can't really complain. I didn't really ever have any major issues in school, you know, kept myself to myself and kind of got through it. It was just coming home. Home wasn't a safe place for us. It wasn't a it wasn't somewhere where you you feel warm and kind of welcomed. Really Michael Hingson ** 14:59 if If you could go back and talk to the younger Sarah, what would you tell her today? What would you teach her hope that she would learn? Sarah Jones ** 15:10 Oh, have done have worked through this question in therapy before, and it's always really hard. I think. I think I would always, whatever. Whenever I'm asked this question that comes to mind, I always think that I'd probably want to know that all of the bad stuff that has happened, shouldn't have happened. Because I think that's something that both me and I think my sister have worked through in that we've been through a lot of stuff on top of the, you know, having extra responsibilities and some of the things that we went through as children, you would you would, you would then go to your parents for that emotional support. Unfortunately, we couldn't get that not through any fault of their own. We just weren't able to give us that. And you then go through that phase of, or why is it happening to me? Why is that? Have I done something? Do I deserve this kind of like, and I think it would be just knowing that when bad things happen, that's not this is wrong? Can it shouldn't happen? And it's not. It's not something that you ever deserve? I think, because that's a big thing that I think both me and my sister have have had to convince ourselves of over over the last few years. Michael Hingson ** 16:25 Yeah, there. We all we all face different challenges in the world at different times. And it can be an interesting experience to go through them. But it ultimately it comes down to what can we learn? And what did we learn from it? And how do we go on from here? Sarah Jones ** 16:42 Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think whenever I kind of talk about any of this stuff hadn't I'd never have I never say I have any regrets. You know, I don't know what happened happened. Yes. Do I wish I'd maybe had a little bit more support sometimes? Or, you know, do I wish some really awful things hadn't happened to me? Okay, fine. But they did. And I think what we really try and do with everything that we've gone through is turn it into something purposeful. And whether that be consciously or unconsciously, everything that's happened to us has led us to where we are now. And it's given us a reason and a purpose of, particularly in the work that we do, kind of in my career. So although it's rubbish at the time, and kind of working through that we, it still has, it serves a purpose. Now, anyway, Michael Hingson ** 17:36 well, it's a lot better to be able to go back and put it in perspective. And the very fact that you think about it, and you do that, I think is important, because you can decide what you want to do with things. There are things you don't have control over, you didn't have control over the situation with your parents and so on. But as you're pointing out in your own way, right now, what you do have control over is how you deal with it, how you dealt with it, but more important how you deal with it today, right? Sarah Jones ** 18:10 Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think that's all we can. That's all we can do is control the now really Michael Hingson ** 18:18 well. So you said you did the work and outside and teaching, climbing and so on for three and a half years? And then what did you do? Sarah Jones ** 18:28 Yeah, so then I went into I went into adult social care. So I I started to I had a few sessions with some young people that had disabilities and were needed that bit of extra support. And it just really, it kind of opened my eyes to it was the first time I'd really seen I guess, an extreme sport be so inclusive. And I'd kind of got bored of standing in the rain for quite a long time. It just rained a lot in the UK. So a lot of the climbing was done studying wet mud, and I decided that I want to do something different. I wanted to kind of move back home and start saving a bit of money. So I went into adult social care and worked in a house for adults with complex needs. So I did that I was a support worker for about six months and then I moved into management and manage the house for just over a year which opened my eyes a lot to the I guess the issues with Adult Social Care, particularly in this country and the kind of lack of lack of care about about care about that kind of that group of people and knowing that at some point, particularly my mom will probably need that support. It really kind of It didn't feel good to be a part of that machine. I really didn't enjoy once I once I've moved up to that kind of manageable level. I then felt like I was the bad person I said, Oh, you can't do that, because I don't have the hours this week, I don't have the funding. And I just, I just really didn't enjoy it. So I did that for the kind of year just under two years, and then went into work in when I went to work in the charity sector and works for a charity called scout. So I'm sure you have the head of the Boy Scouts. And so yeah, so I work for the scouts in the UK. And that was kind of my first taste, I guess, of project work on a wider scale. And that was that was working from home before working from home was cool. It was working from home before COVID. And it was, again, tough, really, really tough. I'd never been in a role like that before I'd only ever been with people. So I'd been working with kids face to face to Climate Center or working with adults who you know, required support. This was behind the scenes, this was like background work, where I was making phone calls and sending emails, and I really struggled with that kind of just feeling really lonely, like just sat in an office by myself at home. And although the work was great, and I worked with a fantastic team, I didn't really connect with the corps that much because it was it was solely supporting young people to get into scouting. I've never really gone to skeleton before I'd never really been involved in it apart from as a as an adult volunteer. So as much as I loved it, I had a short term contract, it was only 18 months. And at the just towards the end of my contract, I fell pregnant with my little girl. So kind of once I went on maternity leave, I decided that I'm not going to go back to that. And, and then yeah, had a baby. And I've had a kind of year out of working on Yeah, nine months out of working and stepped into being a mum instead. Michael Hingson ** 21:59 So do you do you work today? That was five years ago, right? Your daughter's five? Sarah Jones ** 22:05 Yeah, so she just turned five, which the time has flown by and where that time has gone? Yeah, so So after kind of I'd, I'd had I've learned and and had kind of struggled through that time I was I was desperate to get back into work, I really realized that as much as I love being a month. You know, now I absolutely love it. My work is so important. And it's its purpose. It's what drives me, it's what kind of, you know, I feel like I have work to do. So I decided to go into teaching, which was a bit of a yeah, just this random kind of thing I saw I saw this advert I didn't even think it was a teaching role at the time. And I applied to kind of go and support that what I thought the role was was supporting young people to be more active in a school and it was it was kind of like, almost managing their gym and fitness programs. And I thought it would be like the to come in and just kind of use the gym and stuff because I've done my personal training qualification before. And then I got to the industry and they told me it was a teaching role. And I was like, oh, okay, well, let's go do it. Let's have a girl. So I Yeah, then was a teacher kind of throughout, throughout the years before COVID. And then during COVID, I taught in a in a special needs school. While especially as college for Key Stage five students, so they were kind of between the ages of 16 and 19. And I taught them sport and physical activity and then help support them into employment in the sport industry. So kind of help them get jobs in gyms and things and, and I loved it, I loved it, I really, really felt like I'd found kind of what I was really good at. I enjoyed the teaching side of it. You know, the students were fantastic. They did. The school was fantastic. And then kind of COVID hit and and it was it was a bad time. I guess for teachers. It was hard. It was a hard real hard time for for kind of teaching staff and education staff to work through that with the schools particularly in the UK and how it you know how quickly things changed and the guidelines change all the time. And and yeah, I really really struggled with it. And yeah, to COVID ruined teaching for me, I think because I I'm no longer a teacher now. So, so yeah, I think the the process around because the schools closed in the UK quite a few times. They kind of closed, reopen, closed, reopened. And throughout the different phases of us working from home and teaching at home online and then teaching. We'd like a phased return where the young people would come back in like smaller numbers, the whole kind of format of our teach and changed, I guess there's in terms of our staff team. So originally, the vocational teachers, sort of sport teachers here, and these teachers were full time their own subjects, so I only did sport, which is exactly what I wanted to do. And then kind of throughout COVID, when when we changed to, we were, rather than teaching all of the students, we were keeping them contained in in one group, so that if we did have kind of an outbreak or anything, we will, we would just contain that group and send them home. So we then taught everything. So not only was our teaching sport, I was also covering English maths PSH see, you know, different kinds of subjects, the school found that that actually really worked for those students. And it was really positive for them to have one teacher for multiple subjects, rather than multiple subjects with multiple teachers. So they decided to kind of change the roles, I guess, of all of the vocational teachers. And I essentially became a 50% sports teacher, and then 50% maths in English. And it just wasn't something I wanted to do. It wasn't my area of expertise, and it's not something that I enjoyed. So it was at that time that I'd come across just another one of these moments where I just saw something and was like, this must be for me. And it was a rule with Manchester United, who were wysteria, a football team in the UK. And they have a really fantastic foundation attached to them. So it's a charitable arm of the club. And they were looking for somebody essentially to work in some of their specialist schools and support the young people to access sport and access physical activity. And the school that I applied for. They this school was school in South Manchester, absolutely fantastic facility for young people with really complex health needs. So it was working with with individuals that needed to rely on a whole lot of support, and some, you know, two to one support in terms of either for their health or for their, to help manage their behavior or manage their anxieties or help them engage with different different things. It was, it was really eye opening. And I just loved it. Absolutely loved it. I was just I was having so much fallen, I worked with a fantastic team. You know, I used to have days of just doing trampoline and and climbing and like, you know, doing all of this kind of thing is incredible activities with, with young people who, who needed it the most really. And yeah, the kind of working for, you know, Football Club was great. I'm not a football fan. I tried when I worked for them, and I got easier when they pay your wages. But you know, not really that bothered. But, you know, it was a surreal experience. I got some really good opportunities through that. But kind of throughout that, that journey, I guess from from being a teacher, I started to kind of really understand education understand how I guess how rubbish the education system can sometimes be, particularly for disabled young people and how it's not really fit for purpose. Particularly in this country, I think it was, it was difficult times and you kind of not only as a teacher yourself to failure, sometimes setting up the young people to fail as well by not not really understanding their needs and their outcomes. So throughout being a teacher and being kind of with Manchester United, I'd started to kind of explore the idea of climate and how that can be more kind of inclusive. It already is inclusive in lots of places in the UK, there's lots of pockets of incredible work going on. That's like just showing that anything, everything can be kind of accessible and inclusive for anybody. But it wasn't widespread. And this kind of stemmed from I guess, my little brother really he he came to visit me when I was an outdoor instructor back when you know, when life was simple. And he as I said before, it was quite a complex human struggle to engage with with stuff really needed a lot of support from people. And he came climbing visited me at this where I lived and absolutely loved it. It was just the best day I've ever had with him and he was on visit wire over and over again. It was on the climbing wall over and over again. It was constantly asking for more just a massive smile on his face. Getting him out was difficult because he didn't want to leave. But yeah, it was it was something that was the first thing that I'd seen him truly enjoy outside of just you know, watching something on the telly or engaging with something like you know this sedentary so, so I then thought, Oh, this is this is good, he needs to do this when he gets home, he needs to do this with school. And unfortunately back then there just wasn't anywhere around that would understand his needs, there wasn't anybody that could really get that he needed extra support extra time, extra resources. So from that experience, being a teacher and then working with kind of this with the, the, with Manchester United, we had a climbing wall at the school. And I'd started to kind of, I guess, change the way that that looks. And we we started to embed regular climbing sessions that were a little bit different. And then we expanded to kind of access in an external center and, and just it very organically grew. And, and I guess, that project, or that idea outgrew my role with Manchester United, and I just I kind of had to keep moving with it really so. So now I work for access sport. So there, we're a UK based charity. We're, we're a mere 20 years old next year. So we are very young. But we do have a real presence kind of in the UK and that we we work right across both different places and both different sports in helping to make them more inclusive across the board. My area is disability inclusion. So I work with a number of sports now. Kind of we have different partnerships, and we work both from the top down. So we have those discussions with with national governing bodies around disability inclusion, but then we also go into those places on the ground at grassroots and talk directly to coaches about why it's so important and help them help them to kind of open up their doors to to more disabled people playing sport in whatever way is meaningful for them. And I think that this role now is I get it, I guess a combination of all of those roles that I've done before, into one. And I think it's Sarah Jones ** 31:59 that's exactly why I don't look back and think, Oh God, I wish I had gone on to wish I'd stayed in college, or I wish I had not got that job, right. It's just everything that I've done has brought me to this point. And now it's a really exciting time for the kind of where this work is going. really Michael Hingson ** 32:17 isn't that the way of it, you know, you can trace life through the choices that you make. And when you decide that whether they were all good choices or not they were the choices that you made. But it brought you to a point that you value and you rate very highly. It doesn't really get better than that. Sarah Jones ** 32:42 No, I think that's the only way you can do it, there's I think there's it would be very, very easy to fall into that. Or fall back into that phase of feeling. angry and like, like, it's unfair. And like you know that it's just the there's just as much as both annual me and my sister do fall into that. And we have done at times, particularly going through grief and times of trauma and things. We always just managed to pull ourselves back out of it, despite how low we might feel. Because we've got a job to do. And we've got we've got to take all of those experiences that we've had both as caregivers, both as young people who grew up in a difficult area, I guess we have kind of that intersection of of all we had that intersection of barriers, will we have to take that and put that into something that's going to make some form of a difference really? Are you gonna go ahead? No, no, no. Michael Hingson ** 33:48 Are your parents still with us? Sarah Jones ** 33:50 They are Yes. Yeah, they are. They? It's a difficult time, I think at the moment since my brother passed away last year, which I'm sure we'll talk about in a second. It was our relationships are very complex. And I think when the absence of a parent child relationship, when I was younger is definitely more apparent now in that there isn't a parent child relationship. Now, it was always the other way around for us really. And you know, we we have that biological love for them and I care I still care for them. I don't live with them anymore, but I still provide care. You know, if something happens, I'm there and, and throughout, you know, the process of grief. We as siblings snapped back into our original roles and I became a caregiver again. But we don't have a strong relationship anymore because it's it's difficult. It's challenging to have to kind of go back to all of those feelings when as an individual and going, I've done the work I've gone through Without therapy, I have processed a lot of stuff. The moment I go back into that place, it takes you back to feeling not great. So yeah. Michael Hingson ** 35:11 So things happen. And it's difficult unless the relationship can work both ways. And that sounds like it's been a real tough thing for you to have to deal with. Because it doesn't really work both ways. Sarah Jones ** 35:30 Yeah, I think that's the thing. And it's just, I think a lot of the journey for me particularly, has just been acceptance really, and kind of forgiveness. And understanding that whatever choices were made when I was younger, are now the best choices that they could have made at the time. Most informed choices that they could have made at the time, and that's unlikely to be any different moving forward. And that's fine. And I have my days, where something happens, or particularly Christmas, Christmas is always a time I absolutely love it. But I will have a cry on Christmas Day. I'll have a good 10 minutes, and I'll feel sorry for myself, and then I'll be fine. But I do we do. I do have those moments where I feel, you know, a bit a bit low, but then you just go it's fine. There's nothing I can do about it, I can't control it. All I can do is, is be there when when I'm needed. And that's just that's the relationship. That's that's what it is. And that's fine. It's better than some other relationships that I know people have with their parents. So Michael Hingson ** 36:36 yeah. Well, and you, you certainly seem like you're you're working through it. And I'm sure you spend a lot of time reflecting and thinking about what what you did, what you're doing, and probably some where you can go. But again, you're well aware of the choices that you made. And you appreciate that conceptually, which is something that a lot of us don't necessarily do. And it's all about really learning that you can trace where you are from where you were through the choices that you made. Sarah Jones ** 37:14 Yeah, definitely. I think that there's a lot of times that things that stick in my mind of like pivotal points, I guess that really determined what what paths I chose, I think one that that always I talk about a lot when I when I talk with when I work with young people, I remember being in college and going through a really tough time with with my brother and dad kind of was struggling to do an assignment or something. It was something along the lines of I couldn't quite reach a deadline or something. And I was it was really hard at that point. And I remember my tutor at the time, pulling me into the office, and I got really, really upset. I was really struggling at home, I was just all over the place. And she said, Well, all of us have got stuff going on, which is you just got to get on with it. And that was the week I dropped out. That was the week I just left. I was like I cannot I'm not doing this anymore. Like I can't, I just can't do it. And I think it was at the time, it was a really, really harsh thing to do. And I think probably wouldn't, probably wasn't the best thing for her to say. But I'm grateful because it was, yeah, people do have stuff going on and people get on with it. And it's not, it's not it's not right to certainly not right to say that to a student who's in tears in front of you. But there is, I guess there is some harsh truth in that in that, you know, as a as an adult now, the work that I want to do in the job that I've got to do you have to put all those things into perspective, I guess, put all of those choices into okay, that happened? What's the positive from it? And that's the only way that my brain works, I think is spinning them into positive silver linings. Michael Hingson ** 39:07 Is there a better support system from the government in the country today than there was when you were a child and having to provide so much support? Or is it really still about the same? Sarah Jones ** 39:22 Um, I think I don't think it's any better. I think a language that they use is better now. In terms of how they write reports and stuff, generally, it's a bit of a postcode lottery in the UK. So it's all dependent on where you are and what services are available because the social care comes from a local authority which obviously is governed by a budget and different local authorities will get different budgets based on where they are so it does totally depend on on where you are in the country. trainers, just the luck of the draw, which is sad. I think when there is a crisis, there is a massive problem in that there's a massive amount of young people that need that support and vulnerable adults that need that support. And it's a priority list. And it's a list that's too long for the amount of resource that they have. And that's exactly what kind of happened with us when we were younger. That was what happened. More recently with with kind of my brother's death, that's, that is the problem. There's just too much and not enough help. Michael Hingson ** 40:36 Why do you think that is? Is it just not a priority? Is it that people don't know? Or what? Sarah Jones ** 40:42 Um, well, I won't make it political? No, Michael Hingson ** 40:46 I was Yeah, I was trying to stay away from from politics. That's unfortunately, always there. Yeah, Sarah Jones ** 40:53 there's a massive lack of investment in social social services, that social care services. So. And I think I think that's apparent right across the board, not even just in terms of social workers and the amount of resource there but also the quality of care, in social care services, such as adult residential facilities, mental health support all of that there's just a massive lack of investment in it. And without investment, there isn't good quality service. And without that, people aren't getting what they need. And it's, it's scary, because you don't see it getting any better. It's not it's not get any better, even, you know, since COVID. Like it's only got worse. And it's, it's a scary thing to think there's so many different groups and pockets of people that require that support. It's not just families that have, you know, families of disabled people, it's people, elderly people who who require social care support. It's, you know, families who, sibling, carers, family carers. There's, there's just a long list of people. And not enough help. Yeah. Michael Hingson ** 42:11 Well, you've talked a lot about your brother and the fact that he passed away last year. So I know you said you wanted to talk a little bit about that. Sarah Jones ** 42:21 Yeah, I think it's just it's just such a pivotal moment, I guess, for me and for my life for my career. I think it's a real defining kind of moment. He so yeah, so he, he still lived at home. He was 20 just No, sorry, online he was at when he passed away, just turned 18 It'd be 20. Now. So he, yeah, he still lived at home. And he, I'd lost kind of seen him at Christmas time. And I think when me and my sister had kind of moved away from home, because we both grew up and had our own lives and families and stuff. He, his kind of, I guess, understanding of was started to diminish because we weren't there. He had a really close bond with my sister, they were much closer because they were closer in age. And others had moved away and works residential for a while, and she'd stayed at home. So they were really, really close. I wasn't as close with him, but but he was, you know, part of part of us, he was a little broke. And I just got I just got a phone call just in the, in the middle of the well, in the evening from from my dad, and he just told me just said oh, he's he's passed away. He's scared when I was just what was going on. And I just flipped it into caring role. And I was just managing everything. And I think at the time, there was suspicions over the the kind of cause of his death. It was a very unexpected death, the police were involved and because because my parents could have had those additional needs and needed that additional support. Everything came through me so all of the inquest came through me the funeral planning, you know, go into speaking with the coroner, all of that stuff was my responsibility. And that's not a complaint. I'm glad it was because that's me controlling something. Control Freak. And I needed that. I needed something to feel like I was doing something to help Mr. There was nothing I could do to bring him back. But that was my role. My sister on the other hand, flitted into her role of being really affected by it and really emotional. And just struggled with that whole process. I struggled in my own way afterwards, after the funeral once everything after the inquest sorry, she's troubled right at the start. But the inquest was about nine months long. We're just waiting and waiting for investigations waiting for answers just constantly kind of wondering. And then I kind of finally got the final report, I guess the inquest inquest was closed. And they found that he had, it was suggested that he died after an epileptic fit. So he'd had a seizure, and had passed away during that seizure. The kind of the difficulty around that is that he, he was just turned 18. So his through the report have kind of gone through all of these different phases of his life really looked at all of his history. And it dragged dragged up a lot of stuff. So it really had to get all of our family files right up until from the moment he was born. And it was reading through that I still, I still haven't read through it all. I've read through the bits that I need to but the bits that I have, just see a timeline. And I think, in this country, when when a young person turns 18, if they're under the care, or if they're under the or they rely on social care support, at the age of 18. Some places it's a little bit different. It could be 19, they transition into a different service, there's a children's social care services and adult social care services. And then when he was a child, the family had two social workers. So it was two people who were giving that care and support throughout COVID, obviously, that that support drops because of precautions and stuff. And then once he turned 18, he became an adult. And he lost that that original social worker, so the family had one. Now, throughout that process, the inquest found that lots of communication didn't happen between those two teams. And there's a timeline essentially of phone calls and reports and kind of, I guess, complaints made against about him. He was consistently missing appointments. My dad had phoned and said he was struggling to cope with him, it was struggling to take him to appointments, started to miss school. Because the aid was struggling to get transport, and it was just like you could, it was like one of those moments when, and lots of people will probably understand if they've been on safeguarding training or anything like that. And you do this training, you read all these reports, and you go, how did you not see it comment? How did they not see where this was going? And reading that was exactly it was it was like this is not going to end? Well. And I think it was, it was considered that maybe because they were struggling with supporting him to get to his appointments. He may have been on the wrong medication, which wasn't because he'd grown so quickly, because he was it was growing, he was 18. He wasn't having enough medication to manage his epilepsy, and therefore his seizures had increased. So there was a massive question, and whose fault is that? Because both my parents are vulnerable adults as well. They are deemed to, or they struggle to provide support for him because he's a complex young man. And he he was I don't want to say it was difficult, because it wasn't difficult. He was he just had a lot of needs that weren't met. So does that mean that social services have failed him and failed the family? I personally think it does. But there was a bit of a debate in terms of is it? Is it my parents that have have made, you know, the wrong choices here? Or is it the lack of support that the family got? So there's other questions around kind of him, the time between him passing away and kind of ambulance being cold and things like that, and there's so many gray areas with it. But the fact of the matter is, is that he is no longer here. And a big reason for that is because he wasn't getting the care that he needed. And the reason why he wasn't getting the care that you needed is because the services that were supposed to support my family weren't able to do that, for whatever reason. And I think working through that, and really kind of accepting that that's what happened is, was probably the hardest thing I've ever had to accept because there's nothing I can do about that. I can't I can't change that. I can't. I can't do anything about the fact that that's the way that this the services are in this country. I can't do anything about how stretched they are. What was really difficult is about 10 days before he passed away 10 days before I'd had that phone call. I had phoned the social services at the local authority to come to basically say that I was worried the The house that kind of he lifted, they were really struggling to keep on top of kind of cleanliness and tidiness. I know, they'd had historical issues with kind of mice and things like that. And it just wasn't a, it wasn't a safe environment for people to live. And I'd, my grandma had gone and kind of taken some, she's gotten fooled for whatever reason. And she'd phoned me say, and I'm really, really worried I've not seen. It's just, it's just really bad. I don't know what to do. So I'd phoned them and said, Look, can can you go round? Can we can we can have this shouldn't be happening, like it would need to do something about it. And the social worker on the phone has said, Yes, I'll go around this week. And she never did. She had not made that visit. And it's difficult to, to not think that if she had gone would that not have happened, because obviously, the inquest says it's completely unrelated. But that their support had massively dropped off before that point, that there would have been a kind of Stark reduction in the amount of visits that they were having from the people that were supposed to be supporting them. And that meant that the environment got worse and worse and worse. And it still have to tell myself sometimes, that that's not a factor in what happened, because it creeps up every now and again. But that's probably the biggest thing is that that was an attempt of me trying to help and trying to just give them a kick up the bottom to be honest, and be like, come on, like you need to this is your job. And it didn't work. And the worst outcome of that is that somebody lost their life. And I think, yeah, it's been a difficult process to work through. And difficult to accept, but all the, I guess talking about that, turn it into a purposes. I always said that they had to talk about it, I'd be open about it. Within that inquest report, it was I think it was about 60 to 70 pages long. And there was, from what I've read, there was one sentence that described him in a positive way. Everything about everything were in the opening section where they described who he was, it was he was, Sarah Jones ** 52:19 you know, he was aggressive, or he was challenging, and he got really anxious. So he couldn't do this. He couldn't do that. There was one sentence that said he could also be happy, loving and kind. And that was just even after he had passed away, people still described him in kind of a report in a really negative light. And it's the only thing I can do now let's change that and actually talk about him. He was wonderful. He was cheeky, was funny, he was so an absolute joy to be around. And I think it's female, we'd asked his teachers to come and speak and, and kind of, I guess, just say a little excerpt, because they knew him best. They spent the most time with him when he was in school. Gone, sorry. Go ahead. And they wrote this absolutely beautiful poem about who he was. And it was so so funny. And that I think that's what we wanted. That's what we want to capture now is that we want to talk about him for who he he was and the joy that he brought to our lives, not how people felt that he made it difficult. Michael Hingson ** 53:28 Have you thought about writing a book about him? Sarah Jones ** 53:32 I've thought about it, I've thought about it. I've been told I should write one. But it would I use him a lot. In my job. Now I do a lot of training with coaches. And we treat we we train people around disability inclusion and disability awareness. And I use them as in so many examples. And that's kind of Yeah, he, we bring him into, into the work that we do and, and he's, he's the inspiration behind all of the work that I do in climbing now and how that's going and his kind of, it's not really a legacy, but it it's, it's all kind of for young people that are just like him because he's, he's one of he's a young person that has lost their life and prior to that had a pretty poor quality of life. Because he's not what he needs. And it's it sounds really kind of unlinked sometimes. But through sport and physical activity, we actually do have the power to give those people what they need. And it's not just about couldn't play a sport, couldn't get better at climbing a wall couldn't get better at kicking a ball actually come and be in a place that is safe and welcoming and warm and can give you a place to belong. And that's what that's what is we're trying to do really, and what I'm trying to do with my work is to help provide more places where disabled people can feel safe and welcome, particularly when they reach that point of 1819 25, whatever the age is, when school and college are no longer there, because that will happen to everybody who, who, who requires that support, will lose that support when when they reach that age. And what's after that, at the moment is pretty poor. And if you are somebody that relies on a high level of care, it's, it's not it, there's lots of places that are wonderful. And if you have the means to do that, and to provide for that great, but if you don't, your weld is, can be very, very small. And what we, what we want to try and do is change that, I guess, well, Michael Hingson ** 55:49 tell me a little bit more about what you actually are doing today. Sarah Jones ** 55:55 So my current role now, so I guess my title is senior development manager. So I essentially work with lots of people in lots of different sports to help them become more open and equipped to being disability inclusive. My that's kind of my role, I guess. But my I guess my biggest piece of work, which is external is linked to my role, but also external to my role is kind of developing inclusive outdoor opportunities. Building on some of the work that already exists in the industry, particularly in this country, we've got some fantastic places that just make everything inclusive and always say yes, and I'm really trying to spread that through through kind of not just the the climate world but also the commercial climate world as well. I think, particularly in this here sport is very, it's certainly going more performance based. And we've got we've got a fantastic parasport presence, like we have so many parasport opportunities, but because that is competition based, it is exclusive. It excludes people from that because people are allowed to develop a certain skill. So they have to work on something that is going to pitch them against somebody else have the same ability or a similar ability. Actually, we have this massive group of massive number of people that will never fit into those categories are don't want to they don't want to be the next Paralympian does that mean they shouldn't be able to play sport and shouldn't be able to kind of reap those benefits. No, we need a different offer. So I guess my biggest piece of work at the moment is working with all of the statutory organisations that are involved in climate in the UK. And essentially, looking to develop more inclusive opportunities through training, through award schemes through working on the ground with kind of instructors and clubs individually. And then helping kind of young, young people to access those, those opportunities and just be in that for life really would be the ideal. And through kind of through that there's there's other things that I do. I'm due to speak at the conference next year for the International young carers Conference, which is I've done lots of in the last kind of couple of years, I've had lots of opportunities to talk about disability inclusion, which has been amazing and definitely getting better at it, I think. But this is a this is a bit different. So this is me going and talking about my experience as a young carer and delivering a workshop to professionals and academics that work in that field. And it's that, yeah, that's an opportunity to kind of, again, take all of that experience that that we know my sister had us as young people that in hindsight could could be seen and is seen as as pretty poor, I guess. And try and use that to really hammer home. Why it's so important that the people kind of look at young carers and really prioritize them some way. Oh, God, sorry. Go ahead. Cool. Michael Hingson ** 59:21 All right. What what is your sister too? So Sarah Jones ** 59:24 my sister is oh, she's amazing. Oh, God love I like her. She's just she's just a fantastic human being so she she always knew from being primary school that she wanted to be an actress. So she was leading lady in all of our little primary school plays and I used to go and watch her and I used to get so proud of her and especially because we do have this kind of it's not really a sister Sister bond. It's more of a parent child relationship. Sometimes in the I still see her as this little, you know, my little sister, she's 23 she's a grown woman. But, you know, I still see her as a little girl. So she always knew she wanted to be an actress. She's just was on that road. She was like, This is what I'm doing. I'm going into this. And she went to college, she did drama, she excelled. She then spent, I think two years auditioning, because she chose the school, the drama school that she wanted to go to in London, she was like, I don't care how long it takes me, I'm going here. After two rounds, two or three rounds of auditioning, she got in, she graduated from there. She was the first person kind of in our, in our family to go to university. And she's now kind of a, she she does, she hasn't actually done some tele stuff, which is going to hate me saying, but yeah, she she's doesn't like that. But she is really passionate about kind of, again, using her own experience in the field that she's interested in. But she also works for a company, a theatre company that only work with disabled actors. So I think I like to joke and that we're basically doing the same job but in two completely different sectors. But we it's no surprise really, when you when when you think of kind of where we've, where we've come from. But yeah, she she is in the arts, and she is absolutely fantastic. And she just has kind of a wonderful, colorful career ahead of her. And I think she really, she always stuck to her guns, I think when we were I remember when she was auditioning. She said that because she's going down to London, often you're told to kind of lose your accent and lose your grip. And she's she was like, Absolutely not. I have a working class girl from a northern town and I am keeping that. And it's yeah, it's definitely kind of put her in good stead she's definitely kept to her roots. And yeah, that's, that's what that's where she is. Michael Hingson ** 1:01:50 Well, you have clearly had a lot of experiences, and you've, you've been through a lot and, and you've, you've come through it, and you're able to move forward. What do you want people who are listening to this, too, to know or to remember? Or understand? Sarah Jones ** 1:02:11 Um, I think I guess it's that, I don't know, I think for me, in my kind of day to day job, when I meet people and I kind of do I do my work or, you know, I'm walking down the street, and I'm going doing what I want to do. I think people assume I'm irate. And I've got it all together. And I'm like, I'm cool, you know. But underneath that underneath that kind of facade, there is a lot of this really kind of deep rooted stuff that is that I'm still working through every day. And it's hard, it is hard. And I think that usually the people who are most passionate about something particularly like social issues, and things like that, have a real personal connection to that. And I think that's why we need people like that in those roles. It's I feel like I'm kind of going off on a tangent, but I think it's so important that we kind of I guess just stay almost stay grounded. I think particularly in the world of like sport development and, you know, fast moving careers and stuff, you can kind of get a bit lost in what in the work that you're doing. But actually, the most passionate person around the table who has the biggest virus, it's probably got the darkest kind of history, or skeletons in their closet or stuff that they have to get up and work work through every single day. And it's worth remembering that when, I guess, I don't know, every day really, when you meet people that does something, sometimes people have done a lot of work to get to where they are. And it's it's been a tough ride, I guess. But yeah, I think I think that's probably I don't think I've answered the question there. But Michael Hingson ** 1:04:11 I think you have I think one thing that strikes me and well, we'll kind of leave it with this. But one thing that strikes me is again, you you've made choices, but you thought about them. And you know where you came from. And you know where you are. And you may go somewhere different in the future. But you are grounded in and although there are lots of things to deal with. You're comfortable in knowing that the choices that you made or the choices that you made, and it has brought you to where you are and you seem pretty comfortable with that which is cool. Sarah Jones ** 1:04:55 Yeah, I guess. I guess I'm comfortable with that. I think it's that The acceptance is a big part of that, I think is just accepting what has happened and feeling all the feelings associated with it, but then not letting them kind of overwhelm hospital. And that's, that's easier on some days than it is others. Definitely reaching out and start talking about it as well, I think that's a big thing for me. I have really struggled in the past to kind of be open about some things and felt like it's not my place. And now I just say it, I just say it and use it and kind of use it as a tool to help my work kind of continue, I guess. But But yeah, I guess being comfortable in accepting whatever road you've been put on? Well, sounds a bit easy. But But yeah. Michael Hingson ** 1:05:46 Well, I want to thank you for being here and taking the time to talk with us if people want to reach out to you maybe learn more about access ports and so on. How do they do that? Sarah Jones ** 1:05:56 So, yes, we do have a website, I think I can send you that. It's ww accesssport.org.uk. And you can hear all about kind of the work that we do. And Michael Hingson ** 1:06:07 is it access sport with it? S P O R T or SPORTS? Sarah Jones ** 1:06:12 S P O RT? Accesssport? Michael Hingson ** 1:06:17 Accesssport.org.uk? Sarah Jones ** 1:06:20 Yeah, you can hear kind of some of the stories of the young people that we've worked with and the families that we've worked with and, and kind of hear more about the sports that we we work with. But yeah, I guess that that's kind of where you hear about our work. I've sent over my kind of LinkedIn as well, if anybody wants to connect to all things, climate and inclusive climate, I think, yeah. Michael Hingson ** 1:06:41 So what's your what's the LinkedIn handle to use for that? And Sarah Jones ** 1:06:45 I think it's just at Sarah Jones. I think it's Sarah Michael Hingson ** 1:06:49 Jones dot. Well, at Sarah Jones, yeah. Okay. Well, Sarah, I want to thank you for being here. I appreciate it. And thank you for being willing to talk in such depth about all the things that you had to say. It's kind of a heavy discussion, but I think an important discussion. And I really appreciate that you are willing to help take on the whole issue of the fact that people with disabilities are part of the world and we need to really work more to make sure that people understand that. So keep doing what you're doing. And we want to hear more about it in the future and want to keep up with with what's happening. But I want to again, thank you and I want to thank you for listening out there, wherever you may be, please when you can give us a five star rating we value your ratings in your comments, love to hear what you think you can reach out to me also, email addresses MichaelHi, m i c h a e l hi accessibe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hinkson.com/podcast and Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n so Michael hingson.com/podcast. Love to hear your comments. And Sarah for you and everyone listening. If you know of anyone else who we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset. Please reach out and let us know we would love to hear from you. Always looking for more people to have on. So Sarah one more time. I want to thank you. We really appreciate you being here and wish you well and everything that you're doing. Sarah Jones ** 1:08:33 Thank you Michael Hingson ** 1:08:40 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.