Episode 22 - Dream big or small, just follow your path, Jamie White

Let‘s Talk HR - Humanizing the Conversation

Have you ever dreamed of becoming a cashier, this guest started out with this dream. However, she quickly realized that her path did not end there. She was destined for so much more, her path was not straight but it was amazing, unique, and not finished.

Leighann Lovely 00:15

Let's Talk HR is a place for HR professionals, business owners and employees to come together and share experiences and talk about what's working and what's not. How we can improve best practices so that companies can better attract, train and retain all generations of workers. We all know that there has been a huge shift in what people want. Generations are coming together more than ever, on what's important. Mental health has been brought to the forefront of everyone's mind. Let's humanize these conversations. Let's talk about how the economy has been impacted, and what needs to happen to find a balance. I'm your host, Leighann Lovely so let's get this conversation started. And remember, if you enjoyed this episode, follow us like us, and share us.

Leighann Lovely 01:05

Jamie, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited to have this conversation. It's just it's exciting to talk with you today. Because we've met through, you know, somebody else that, we both know. So thank you so much for being here.

Jamie White 01:21

Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm really excited to be a part of this. And I love what you have to offer. And I'm so excited to be on board.

Leighann Lovely 01:30

So why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself?

Jamie White 01:36

Yeah, so my name is Jamie white. And commonly in work, I go by my middle name, which is actually Cinderella. And so anybody that I work with, currently has known me as Cinderella. So if you hear me refer to myself that way. That's why Currently, I am the general manager for antique op, which is a brand that has storage, as well as antique stores throughout Wisconsin. But I actually got that set up through meeting Jaime and Kevin, that is also Jaime white. So we differentiate with my middle name being Cinderella and her being Jaime, they really kind of set me on this amazing career path between coaching and management.

Leighann Lovely 02:26

Kevin has actually come on my podcast. And he made an introduction, for you and I. And it was really funny when he made that introduction, because he said, I would like to introduce you to Jamie White. Not not that Jamie. And yeah, and I was like, wait, what do you mean up? And he introduced the two of us. So tell me a little bit about how you met Jamie and Kevin White of the white group. And Kevin now of, you know, he has a podcast, business addicts. But how How did you meet them? And how did that relationship evolve?

Jamie White 02:59

Yeah, so it was during 2020, I had kind of left my somewhat career at the time. And I got this email asking for a nanny, I used to nanny all the time. And I had left that career path on long time prior, I got to speaking with Jamie and originally wasn't anticipating leading into that realm at all. But we found that we had so much in common that it just felt like a complete perfect fit. So I ended up nanning for them for a little bit in the process. I I found coaching. So they are actual coaches, life coaches. And at the time, I didn't realize what I was getting into. I didn't know anything about coaching and never heard about it before. And I hadn't yet worked through quite a bit of my traumatic background. And so in the process of being the nanny, Jamie was coaching me and I didn't know it was coaching at the time. And all I knew was we were working like I was working through things. And she was asking me all these great questions that led me to think in a deeper way. And in Kevin, I got to know him a couple months down the line because he wasn't as home as often as she was, and ended up just really having so much respect for the both of them. And the differences that they bring to coaching and leadership and teaching others how to grow in themselves and to develop who that it is that they've been made into being. Rather than trying to force you into a mold or a box. It's very, very much Who are you and what are your skills? What do you bring to the table and let's develop you and what you're interested in. And so that was game changing and lifestyle Changing and now I've been blessed to kind of partner with them with their coaching crew, which is believed grew. As well as Jaime kind of giving me my start in management and HR

Leighann Lovely 05:15

That is completely amazing. And to start out as a nanny, and for her to take an interest in you, and not just take an interest in you, but to see that there was something so much deeper happening within you that she was able to start pulling that out of you and be able to help you level up.

Jamie White 05:38

Yeah, absolutely. She actually fired me from being the nanny. She told me after a while she she could sense that I was getting antsy, or you had taken like a side job for H&R block. And I was working working as a receptionist in the evenings. And they quickly offered me management as I was just the part time receptionist. And I realized like I wanted that, but I wasn't sure that I wanted it there per se. But I had this yearning for something more. And so she ended up firing me. When they offered me management, she said, that's what you're meant for more than this, this isn't your role. So you have a choice, you can either be my housekeeper, and she knows that I absolutely hate cleaning. You could manage for me at antique up because at the time she was running these companies or you could find a position elsewhere. But you cannot be my nanny anymore. That and that was great.

Leighann Lovely 06:39

Right? So throught now you had mentioned you had gone through some trauma. And she helped you, you work through that. So

Jamie White 06:52

yeah, she absolutely did.

Leighann Lovely 06:54

Are you open to talking about?

Jamie White 06:56

About that? Yes, absolutely.

Leighann Lovely 06:59

So tell me a little bit about that, and how that has helped, you know what that looked like and how that has helped shape who you are?

Jamie White 07:09

Yeah, absolutely it's a long story. So I'll try to condense it rather than it being being the whole thing. If you want to check out more of the details. Kevin's podcast actually has like the full testimony. But basically, I was born into severe abuse. My biological father was a diagnosed sociopath. And he was extremely abusive to my mother, and manipulative and gaslighting and trying to kill her and kill us. And so we ended up going to hiding and changing our names, changing all of our identities. When I was about 11, we went into hiding, and that it was like two completely separate lives happened. So we had to before and we didn't access those memories, those were done. And then we had the current, which was just survival. And we didn't talk about the past, we didn't talk about kind of what we were feeling. There wasn't therapy, it wasn't safe to talk to anybody. So it was all of this bottling up. And so it wasn't even safe to, you know, tell people, we were domestic violence victims, because then that could create a link to being found. So as a teenager, as I'm going through all these things, I repressed so many things that I didn't know how to feel, I didn't know how to have hope or have a future. The only thing I could think of was the day to day just get through today. There was no, there was no career that I could have. There was no thought process because it was survival based. And that began to change. After I had my daughter. I knew that I didn't want to be in that path anymore. But I didn't know how to get out either. When you've had your whole family is wrapped up in this. And it's a very real threat. But it's also it also can keep you stuck depends on having wisdom in that situation. And when when is it the right time to move on? And when is it safer to stay. And so that was an interesting transition period, because I was 19 when I had her and had moved away completely from everyone that I ever knew, to start over, have a kind of get a new identity, change everything. Learn who I was as an adult, who I was as a person who I was as a mom, all of those things kind of came into play. My self esteem was so low. And I felt like I had nothing to offer that the only thing I could ever imagine being good enough to do was to work at Kwik Trip that wasn't My dream job at the time was to be a cashier at Kwik Trip. It's very interesting because I ended up becoming a cashier at Kwik Trip. And I really enjoyed the culture and the atmosphere and some of the things that they provided. But they ended up kind of catapulted me into wanting more, which was very nice. After all, the trauma after the repression, the lies, the not being able to figure out who I was, it left's a lot of identity issues. It left a lot of esteem issues, the left issues and relationships that left issues in careers, I couldn't have friends, because people weren't safe. I couldn't be honest. And if you can't be honest and vulnerable, you can't trust anybody. You can't have anybody in your life. And so that was that was probably the hardest thing to unlearn. When you've had your entire life be one way to unlearn that is actually quite painful, because you feel this fear on letting go. Because it's not safe to do otherwise. So it's a lot of mental shifting there.

Leighann Lovely 11:11

Right? Well, and something you just said, is unlearned. Wow, that's such a such a huge statement, right now isn't the entire world, all of management, trying to unlearn the bad habits that we have?

Jamie White 11:27

Absolutely. Management has been driven by this abusive culture, this fear based culture. You know, management has been taught that if they don't get their employees in line, then they have to worry about their job. And so they ruled by fear, because their, their whole position is based in fear and control. And it's not supposed to be I don't think that's how, in any way, it's not good. But if you look at, you know, statistically or psychologically, what that actually does is it ends up creating a toxic culture that people want to leave. Versus if you have a loving culture where you trust that your employees are going to do well, you trust people, you trust your customers? And what does that look like? You have to actually learn to like the people that you work with and develop them. And that's a different challenge than fear.

Leighann Lovely 12:17

Wow! I didn't mean to diminish what you the story that you just told, but what you just said was, that was very profound, to have to unlearn. And I don't know that there are words to say. I mean, the story that you just told is, is unbelievable, to grow up in that environment, to be one, the age that you were in fully aware of what was happening, to have had 11 years in an environment that was obviously very horrific. And now to be a woman who has clearly come out the other side, and very healthy and happy and doing well is it's it's amazing. It's it's should show so many people out there that you and others are very capable of moving past, the traumas that we that we all not that we all have experienced. But that we that we experience in life that some of us have had to endure in in life. So your dream job you mentioned was Kwik Trip. So yeah, and you did you went and worked at Kwik Trip? And you then said you realize that you wanted more because of that? What was the trigger of? Wow, I can do this. I want more. And where did you go from there?

Jamie White 13:44

Yeah, so I ended up transferring stores. So I was originally in Stevens Point and a quick trip there. And then I moved to rapids. And I got a new store and I wasn't sure how to handle that environment. It was very different atmosphere culturally workwise. And was really challenging. It didn't feel healthy. And even the the way that Kwik Trip works is the amount of labor hours that you are allotted is by how much fast or like hot food you sell. So you could have tons of customers every day, but it's determined by how much fast food you sell through Kwik Trip. And if you have a community that's more health conscious or maybe older, you don't sell as much hot food so then you don't have as much labor. We had a really bad shortage, because that was that was just the criteria that they looked at staffing. And we and I knew that we needed to up our hot food sales basically. We were also having a lot of issues with Drive offs. We have a culture here that is there's a lot of crime unfortunately, in this small town. So you know there's a lot of drove off. There's a lot of people who were kind of cheating the system, I guess. And so marketing wise some things have just come naturally to me, which is you make someone feel seen you make them feel wanted and welcome, a they're more likely to buy from you. But if there is theft, they're more likely it's more likely to deter them and create that connection of they've seen me they've seen me as a person. So it was during there was a huge lottery surge. And I think it was like over a billion dollars or something like that, where we just had lines all day long. For maybe it was powerful. And we didn't really have enough staff for it. We weren't prepared for this nonsense and lines all wrapped around the store. And I just needed something, some positivity to infuse the day because all of my coworkers were kind of done, the customers were done. So we have to announce, when they're, you know, when someone comes to the pump, you have to say we see you come inside. And normally it's a quick, you know, Hi, Pam five, we'll see inside. And I was I just came up with this idea of almost being like a showmanship, we're like, over the top ridiculous. So I was like, welcome pump five, we are so happy to see you today. Come on inside, we've got our pizza on sale for only 4.99. And it was over the top, it was ridiculous. And it made everybody happy. And we sold more pizzas or whatever it was that was on sale that day than we had on other, you know, sale days. And I loved it. I loved getting to see the people over in the pumps, just laughing and smiling. Like it was the greatest thing ever. And just that extra oomph of customer service really drove me, we ended up getting a new store leader after that, who she was more by the book. And she decided that she didn't like that turn of events, and she wanted it to go back to how it was, and for the kind of the direction to be somewhere else. And we just didn't see eye to eye on it. And I realized that for me, customer service, and marketing, and management, all rights totally together. When you make your customers feel loved. You give your employees opportunities to take on a project that they're passionate about, and it grows the company. That's what you should be encouraging. If it's growing the employees, if it's growing the customers, if they're developing themselves and developing the company, it should be encouraged. And it gives the employees ownership of something and makes them feel valued. And like they bring something to this company, I realized that that is the culture that I wanted to be a part of. And that's what I wanted to create. And I couldn't do it from a place of being a cashier. Somebody would always be making the rules above me the path to management, incorrect trim, you can do it. But it takes time, they want to see you do the cashier and then move your way out. And I'm not I wasn't interested in waiting that long. So I decided to start my own company after that point. I started that for a little while. And then I realized that, you know, while that direction that I was in wasn't the direction I wanted to be in long term. I was designed for management to lead others to develop a business and accompany by developing the people. And there's, you know, the quote that I love is that employees should be the company's biggest fans. And if they're not, you're doing something wrong, and you really need to take a hard look at management at your company. Are you acting with integrity, if you have a company that a brings value to something, you're fulfilling a need, you're making something better, you're improving it, because that's why we're in business, right? We're nobody gets into business to do something mediocre, you're supposed to be passionate about. It's something that you want to do. And so that's the first tool is having a company that you know is worth value to people. And then having if your employees don't love your company, it's a sure sign that you've got something going on in management, because you're not valuing them as people if you value them as people, and they believe in the philosophy of the company. They'll go forever with you. They will love their experience. If you leave them with. You're just a body. You're just here to be a robot and do what I want. Your company may grow to a degree but it will never flourish. Because the culture is toxic. You're going to have turnover you're going to have employees who don't speak highly of you, your your employees, if treated well, are your best marketing asset. You shouldn't treat them well just because of that, but you should also look at it logically, if you treat them well, if you honor them, they're going to care about you and want to create this amazing company that flourishes because then they also flourish.

Leighann Lovely 20:23

And Kwik Trip is, is known for creating amazing environments. So you, you had a peek under the curtain? Unfortunately, not every single location runs the same. And yeah, there's always going to be changing conflict, you know, at different locations here and there. But you had you had a true, you know, and I say this because I also have a mother who is in management at Kwik Trip. So you had a peek under the curtain at a very young age of what awesome culture looks like, Oh, absolutely. Many of us, especially those of us who are on the older scale, we went to work and it was your, you know, come do your job, go home. And it wasn't so much designed around, making your employees happy. So much as I mean, it wasn't make your employees unhappy. It was more, you're here to do a job. Do the job. Go home?

Jamie White 21:22

Yep, it was very one sided. Correct. And

Leighann Lovely 21:25

nowadays, people are demanding more, and I say demanding on purpose. People finally are saying, I'm not my grandfather. I'm not the person who is going to be a number show up, do my job. Go home, I want to enjoy what I do. I want to have a purpose. Absolutely. And there's nothing wrong with that.

Jamie White 21:53

No, there really isn't. In fact, I think that every single person should always view it that way. They should say, What do I want? What am I passionate about? Where do I put value in? Find out what their career is you shouldn't have to go to work and just think I'm doing this just for a paycheck. Right? You should have passionate about it.

Leighann Lovely 22:11

Right. And, I love the fact that you said my goal. You know, at a younger age, my goal was just to be a cashier at Kwik Trip, because that's there is somebody out there to do every job. Because people say, Well, if everybody's purpose is to be this or that, and I say But not everybody's purpose is to be the owner of a company, some people's purpose is to go in, run a machine and do the best they can possibly do. And go home.

Jamie White 22:43

Yeah, they love it. And I love how different people are we have, you know, on each of my stores, we have five to 10 workers, and it depends on what role you are in what you end up doing. And I have some I have this one young lady who's worked for me for almost a year. She's amazing. She does her job. Well. She enjoys her job. She enjoys the culture. She's very personable. And she's, you know, one of our customer service people at the front desk. So she's cashier, she does all that. And she's taken it and she's owned it. Because I love management and leadership. I of course was like, Oh, you must want this. And she was like, No, I don't at all. I love what I'm doing right here. It made me pause and I'm like, wow, like this is not for everybody. And each person has their own things that they're like I love this. We have like our cleaning lady is so excited to come and clean. She feels that she's got ownership. She takes her job. She does it amazingly. She's one of the hardest workers I've ever seen. I could not do that job. I am not geared for it. I would go crazy. I would. When Jamie offered the cleaning position for her. I said absolutely not. You couldn't pay me enough to do it. Right. But then you have someone else who it doesn't matter that right. You know, it's cleaning. She loves it. She's good at it. She's passionate about it. So that's what you need.

Leighann Lovely 24:17

Right? I have a friend who I remember we were talking and I said well, you know, and this was early on in our friendship. She I didn't know what she did for a living and she says, Well, you know, I clean houses. And I'm like, Okay, there's nothing wrong with that. She goes, I love it. She was I wouldn't do anything else. I love going into other people's homes, and making it look beautiful and making it look perfect. Now here's the thing about me. I have an issue with hair. If I have to clean out like the drain in somebody else's bathtub, but I'm sorry, right, exactly. Oh, God, like run away. I can't do it again. touch it. I can't look at it. I can't. That would that right there. Okay, if I empty the bag of some, you know of somebody's vacuum cleaner. I'm sorry. Like, I have really bad gag reflex. And I just, I remember when I was when I was working at a small staffing company, and they're like, yep, everybody, you know rotates on on helping up cleaning. Again, they didn't have a cleaning lady everybody pitched in fine. But when I had to clean out the vacuum cleaner, I was like, Oh, God, I have to close my eyes. I can't even I can't even look at this. I even bothers me with my own home. Okay. Like, there's there's just certain I can clean a toilet all day. Fine. put my gloves on clean. I just can't. But there are people out there who like I love going into somebody's home, making it look perfect. They come home and they're like, Wow, it looks beautiful in here. They call me and they're like, Hey, you did such a great job today. That's their passion. They love it. And so my friends, like, yeah, I run I have my own business I have. I have the same clients, you know, that call me. And I go it every two weeks, or I go every week. And I you know, it's great. And I'm like, awesome. That's, that's amazing. Like, why would I think any less of you because you clean homes, like, I hate to do much more. Right? I would love to hire somebody to come and clean my home right now I can't fit it in my budget.

Jamie White 26:29

I actually so I don't have much for hobbies. I love work. And that's about it. Like that's what I just enjoy doing. And so I decided, I absolutely hate cleaning. I am not a homemaker in any shape, or form. But I have a six year old. So in my budget, I don't care how poor I am. Once a month, I set aside, like $100 for somebody to come and clean for a few hours. And it has been the most freeing thing ever. Because I'm like it's not. I'm not a bad mom or a bad woman because I don't like doing it. It's just not who God has made me to be but someone else. It's a blessing for them. The money is a blessing to and it's worth it for both of us, right? Hey,

Leighann Lovely 27:13

I know that I could fit it into my budget if it was a priority. But it's your priority. Right? It's right now. I've got other priorities and everybody's working thing. And my husband is perfectly fine with you know, emptying the vacuum bag for me. So there's the trade off, I take care of. I take care of the dishes, I do all of the you know, and he's like, Oh, I'll do that job. Okay, great. We've We've compromised here. But Right, right. Again, so sorry, getting back to where we were. Yeah, you're good. Something that you said that. Um, you and I talked about this before. And I wrote it down the last time we talked because you said that employees should be the company's biggest fan. And that is hands down the greatest, most important thing to any business. If you if you have a workforce that hates coming to their job, that hates doing their job, the number one most horrifying thing that any business can have employees who leave and then go and tell their friends. Oh, I hate working here. I hate that is it? So it only takes one negative review to destroy the company's reputation. Yeah, it's coming from somebody who actually works at your company. Think about how powerful that is?

Jamie White 28:47

Yep, absolutely.

Leighann Lovely 28:48

I mean, I don't understand why more employers and why more owners don't get that?

Jamie White 28:58

Well, I think for a lot of the time before social media had the prevalence it did. You know, it was a lot harder for Word to get out if you were a bad employer, and you didn't have as many options and it was kind of like, Okay, this one's terrible, but what else is there? And so that culture could be pervasive. It could be, you know, it was normal. Whereas now, you know, we've got canceled culture where if someone steps out of line to a degree, that's how you dehumanize someone or you did something that was wrong, like, now, all it takes is is one horrible thing happening in your company and it can be destroyed. And we shouldn't ever have a company where we're in fear of being destroyed. But we should always look at our actions and say, Are we treating somebody to the best of our ability? And, you know, circling back to Kwik Trip, their motto is basically, do you want to others as you would do to yourself and, you know, treat people as you want to be treated and make a difference and they will lives by your actions and your attitudes. That's kind of I really took that and said, Okay, this is my personal mission, right? How am I going to treat every single person I come into contact with. And even if I fail, because we're human, it's if that's your motto, you are going to care about them, you're going to treat them well. It's not going to be about the bottom line, which is for so long companies, that's all it was about was just the bottom line, not the real priority of a business, which is to improve the lives of your customers. And in the process, your employees. I know Smuckers used to have this this viewpoint of, and I don't know if they do now, because I haven't looked into it recently. But their viewpoint was that we would take first take care of our employees, because if we take care of our employees, they can take care of our customers. And rather than it being okay, the customers, you know, always come first, we are your company is made up of people. And those people have their own needs and their own life problems. And if you say, if you don't do what we want, you're fired, or you can't get sick, or you can't take time off and you can't have a life, what you're gonna find is your company is going to end up worthless to people. Right? And that's what matters.

Leighann Lovely 31:20

Companies need to start treating their employees, like customers here. Yes, they do. I mean, yes. Because and here's coming from a staffing perspective. I can I can tell you, that it when somebody comes to me, and they say, We just can't hire anybody, we just can't get anybody in the door. We. So the first thing I do is I go out and I start talking to people who are in their industry. It is really, really quick. It doesn't take me long, it doesn't take a long time at all, for me to figure out the reason they can't hire anybody, especially because I will talk to people who are in the industry. And some of these industries are very small. And I will hear from other employees that oh, yeah, I don't want to work there. Well, why don't you want to work here? Oh, I hear it's a horrible place to work. They they they turn people out all the time. I would never go work there. Oh, yep. And it's like, and once that, once that reputation starts, it is extremely difficult to get rid of it. Because it really is. It's that that just keeps going through and through and through and through and through. Even if they spend a whole time at money time trying to change that culture, it is going to stay with them for a very long time. Yeah, and right, as somebody who's in the industry, there are a handful of companies that I can list right now. And I'm obviously I'm not going to, but that I could list and say yep, the reason that this company spits people out, and people and they have such a hard time hiring is because they have a reputation for being a horrible place to work.

Jamie White 33:13

I know I've had companies that I've worked for that, that I saw things done with lack of integrity. So even when I was offered a promotion, or this amazing dream job, the reality was the culture didn't have the air of integrity that I require. And you're finding that employees or potential employees are a lot more picky today. I've had. So I've had quite an extensive hiring experience since I took over in management. And the one thing that always sticks out to me is even if I don't go with someone like this, I do a lot of interviews. I've gotten multiple people, every single time that I have a hiring session, say this has been the best interview of my life. Because you saw me as a person, like you're treating me as a person. And they're like, it makes me want to work for you more and even if I don't get this position, thank you for how you just treated me and then that's your interview process. From the from the time you start interviewing somebody to the time that you that somebody ends with your company. All of that shows who you are as a person and shows what your company represents. If you treat them badly in the interview your say you're a number what what do you bring to the table? Why would I want you rather than saying who are you as a person? How do you fit like, is this something you want to do? Is this something you're passionate about? And seeing do you guys mesh? Well, it's made most interviews are made with this air of you're here to fit me and rather than Who are you Let me get to know you. Okay, if you're a good fit, let's continue this. Because you also want to think about what your employees want what your potential employees want. If you have somebody who, let's say they say they want to be a cashier, and they apply for a position with me, but they hate people. I don't care what their extensive experiences if they tell me Yeah, I really hate people. And I actually really like tech. And this is where I'm drawn to. And I'm like, alright, that's awesome. And amazing, you would probably dislike this position, and you would be upset with it long term, because it's not who you are. Let's see if we can find you something in tech, or, you know, I have the time I make suggestions to them. Like, you know, I don't think that this is going to be the right fit, because what we're looking for as a people person, but over here, they're hiring. And your skill set who you are, would probably really fit them really well.

Leighann Lovely 35:57

Do you want to work for me? Want to come be a recruiter or, you know, a consultant, you

Jamie White 36:04

know, I've done consulting for people.

Leighann Lovely 36:08

I mean, because that's, the conversation I have with with candidates all the time when they're like, Yeah, I would really like to do this. And I'm like, Yeah, but you are saying that you don't like any of the job duties? Yeah, but I really need a job. Okay,

Jamie White 36:22

Right. And the employees have learned that they have to sell themselves and pretend to be whatever you want in order to get something. But that's this, this abusive mindset, honestly, that you even see in abusive relationships, right? That it's you need to conform to who I am, rather than be yourself in, even in my interviews, so when we talk about wages, employees, or potential employees come to me, and, you know, we advertise how much we are hiring for. And I've got people who are like, well, you know, that's, that's a little low, but I could do it. And I'm like, because I always ask them, How do you feel about the wage? Or what are you looking for? And almost every time they will tell me that they're okay with the wage that set, even if they're clearly not okay with it, right, even if they need more, and I tell each one of them, I'm like you like, Okay, I'll take you at your word. But I'm going to tell you for future reference, if you are actually wanting something, you need to come into an interview and saying, this is actually how much I want. And if it's if they can't do it, or it's not the right fit for you, then then that's not somewhere you want to work. But if you go in saying I'm going to accept whatever you give me, it's setting yourself up for an abusive employer employee relationship. It's not healthy. I'm like, even if you said, You know what, I actually really want 11 That's exactly what I'm looking for. Or I want, you know, 11 is too low. I really need 12. And here's my experience, and I'm worth it. Right, you know, whatever the case is, yep.

Leighann Lovely 37:56

People are always afraid that. And I have the obviously in the field that I'm in I'm, I always ask, what do you what do you want? What do you need? And what would be awesome if you got paid? And then? Oh, absolutely. That's an interesting question. Because I need to know, I need a if this position is paying $20 an hour, can you survive on that? Well, yeah. Would you be comfortable in that? No. Okay, so let's talk about the real number. Let's talk about the number where you're not, you know, pinching pennies and wondering if you're going to be able to make ends meet, right? Exactly, exactly. Where you're going to be able to occasionally go out to dinner, or go out and hang out with friends and not be going live on your salary. Correct? Exactly. I, you know, I again, because if you hire somebody at that, they're going to constantly be looking at the next possible opportunity. And they are, right. So I always ask, what are you? What are you? What is your, you know, what can you survive on? What do you want to make? What would be so awesome if you got? And, I mean, that's the conversation. I no longer ask people, What do you want to make? Because, well,

Jamie White 39:11

They don't know, we didn't have the confidence for they think that they're going to be rejected if they have standards, correct. And so even when I when I know without a doubt, somebody will not be able to work for me. I say, you know, this was an amazing interview, and I'm gonna tell you straight up you need to value yourself more. Yep, your next interview, nobody's going to be offended if you say this is what I want to make. This is what I need to make. If you're willing to settle for less don't tell them

Leighann Lovely 39:37

no, don't tell you know, never tell anybody. Well, I really want this I mean, but you know, if you offer me this, I'll take it.

Jamie White 39:47

Why? Like you just under sold your entire cell. But what employees are starting to realize that there are so many jobs out there jobs that perhaps they weren't they didn't used to have access to or that have better benefits or whatever, they have the ability now to be picky. But a lot of times, the people that come to me are younger, in their work history, they don't know they don't yet have a lot of confidence are developing as people. I've told every single one of them, you need to ask for more, right? You need to stay because what I want,

Leighann Lovely 40:19

so I don't work with a lot of very young people, but I just I'm working on hiring a nanny a very part time like a baby, right? So I asked, you know, the nanny, how much do you How much do you need an hour? And the conversation was very weird, because I'm not used to dealing with somebody who is 2019 years old. And it was what I don't really like this conversation was the way it started with what she said to me. And I'm like, Okay, well, what do you want to make?

Jamie White 40:52

Right? Well, a lot of times, they think that you're going to tell them what you can make.

Leighann Lovely 40:56

And so, you know, she went on to say, well, you know, I previously made this, you know, I would like to make it and I finally said Don't sell yourself short, just tell me the dollar amount that you want, and I will pay you. And eventually, eventually it came to okay, you used to make this I'll give you $1 More an hour, okay, like,

Jamie White 41:17

right? No, I totally get it. Actually, Kevin. And I just had this conversation because I'm doing consulting for for the escape rooms that are that they have, and like hiring and training and managing certain aspects of it. And he's like, Well, how much do you want to make for this? And I'm like, and I do exactly what I tell everybody not to do. And I'm like, I don't know, like, I guess this must be fine. And he's like, No, that's ridiculous. That's, it's ridiculous like this? And I'm like, Well, no, no, that's what I make now. And he's like, No, and here you go. And he gave me this number that I'm like, You know what, actually, I feel like, that's fair. But because I had low confidence in it. I was like, willing to undersell myself, and I would have been upset, actually long term if I was willing to settle for that. So I always tell my employees to ask, right, the worst thing I can say is, you know, we can't do that. But we could do this. Right.

Leighann Lovely 42:14

And that's what I tell every, you know, you know, I just had a conversation yesterday with one of my candidates who, and this is a rarity. Normally I negotiate on their behalf when I'm placing, you know, a candidate for them, but one of my clients prefers to negotiate directly with a direct their direct hires, which is fine, because they are doing a direct hire there. They just pay us basically for the search, setting up the interview. And then once they go into we want to offer, they prefer to do all of the negotiation from there on out, okay, that's fine. makes my job easier. But the candidate calls me and says, Well, I would like to negotiate. And I said, okay, and he goes, Can we walk through how I do this? Absolutely. Let's talk it over. You know, so I, you know, I go over everything. And I'm like, and the last thing I said was, if they say no, are you still going to take the job? Yes. He says, Okay, great. So, with that in mind, by asking for all of these things that you you want, just remember that the worst thing that can possibly happen is they say no, and you still have a job. And he was like, oh, yeah, right. I mean, there's there's no. And it's, of course, there are situations where if somebody comes back and is asking for, you know, a ridiculous amount more and is not being appropriate in the way they're doing it, they can always rescind the offer. But this is not a case in which, you know, he wasn't asking for anything. Outrageous. He wasn't being you know, right. Yeah, it was pretty, a pretty straightforward standard, like, Hey, can I have, you know, a little bit of additional vacation? Can we, you know, meet in the middle here and all pretty basic things. Yep. And it comes down to the worst thing that can possibly happen is they say no, and either you choose not to accept a job, or you choose to still accept the job, and you have a job, or you walk away from a job that you can't take because they weren't willing to give you enough money to survive. And exactly, I think people forget that people. People think, Oh, I'm going to be rejected.

Jamie White 44:28

That's absolutely what it is.

Leighann Lovely 44:29

Right, the fear of rejection is, I think the greatest fear that that people have of oh my gosh, they're going to reject me.

Jamie White 44:39

Yeah, it I totally agree. I mean, I see this. So when I'm coaching women, in relationships, we see the same thing. Your relationship with your employer, your relationship with a partner, very similar in this is they're driven by fear of rejection, so they're willing to accept whatever you want when they realize that They actually have more value than they were under selling them, they get upset at the employer that took them at their word, and said, Okay, this was the terms that you agreed to. And so I encourage each one of our employees or potential employees, in our interview, to say, what do you value? Who are you? Like, I don't focus a lot of times on work, like I might ask your work history and whatever. But most the time, it's okay, who are you? What are you passionate about? What? What do you bring to the table? What's your favorite thing about yourself? The most amazing thing is that is a hardest question for people to answer. And what they will always answer what they want to improve on, they will always give you that answer, because they're so used to selling themselves short. Right? And so I try to encourage each one of our employees, each one of the people that come in, as you are amazing, this is who you are, this might not be a right fit, but it doesn't mean you're redacted. It means that you are valued somewhere else, that you bring something to the table that no one else does. We just don't have the position for it. But here you go, here's what you should do,

Leighann Lovely 46:04

right? Like, we could talk for hours about all of this, this is the stuff that like gets me going and I'm like, Yes, I'm so tired of people selling them sell shorts and women in particular. Oh, absolutely. There's still that fear around Well, women not being treated equally or not being accepted, there's still that fear. And I want to, I'm sure like you because I have a daughter, you have a daughter, I want to make sure that by the time my daughter enters the workforce that there is never, ever that fear of Well, I'm not going to be looked at as good as my male peers, or my male counterpart is. Yeah, and I preach that constantly is Don't sell yourself short. You if you write the skills, if you have the, the experience to back it up, there is nothing wrong for asking what you're worth.

Jamie White 46:57

I totally agree. I think that what I see a lot when I hired a man or I have an interview with a man, a lot of times they're not afraid to ask for more. I've actually never had a woman tell me that she needed to make more, unless she'd been in the workforce for a long time. Like someone who was like 30 years, my senior, she was like, I need this much to make a living. I was like, unfortunately, that's out of our budget, I think that you're worth it. But the position that we have just wouldn't work for that, right. But men are typically they just come in and say, I'd like to make this much. If you like eight out of 10 times, if you just say, this is how much I'd like to make. And you're just calm with it, you're probably gonna get it. I mean, not if it's not outrageous. If it's $1 or two more, you're there's a good chance you'll get it. If it's $5. More, not for this position. But other positions. Yes, I find that men don't have as much of a fear around saying this is what I'd like to make, right? versus women who are like, they want to be liked. And they want to be seen as valuable, but they don't yet see themselves as valuable a lot of times, right, not when it comes to romance, but

Leighann Lovely 48:07

it's that imposter syndrome that that we see. Yeah, I mean, I struggle with that. Sometimes I still there are still times that I struggle with that, you know, where I'm like, if if I get up in front of these people, if I give this presentation, are they going to find value in what I'm saying? Are they going to? Am I really the expert in this? As time has gone by and more people are like, Wow, you're really knowledgeable in this? And I'm like I am? Oh, yeah, yeah, yes, I

Jamie White 48:37

Yeah. Why do we need validation? Before that? Why do we need somebody to say yes, you're good at things when we when we actually know it. That's why you're doing what you're doing when you're bringing such a valuable light to this topic. And you know what you're talking about? Well, why do we need somebody else to say it, it's because we've been so conditioned for so long to say our value is in other people. And I tried to shift that viewpoint. I'm like, You guys are amazing. And I'm gonna affirm you all day long. But you have to understand that it doesn't matter what I think about you, it doesn't matter. What do you think about you? Where do you want to be thinking about yourself? Yep. And how to get there?

Leighann Lovely 49:16

Yep. Well, you are clearly not only a great manager, but the way that you talk and we didn't even get to talk about your coaching side, but we are coming to time. And clearly you're great at that. Because and everything that you're talking about, I mean, I can tell that you're just the way that you're coaching the individuals that you're interviewing. I mean, these are just, these are things that you can't, you can't teach these are things that are inherent, inherent and in life experiences, through whatever traumas through whatever triumphs through whatever, you know, things that we have gone through, start to really shine and you know, come out And it's it's clear that you have that. And it's it's amazing. I like I said, I could talk to you for another two hours. But right, before we end, I do have the question of the season. Yes. If you could pinpoint a time period in your career that made a huge difference in your life or career path, when would that be and why? I would

Jamie White 50:22

say, it was actually being fired by Jamie. I love that way. It was I mean, she, she literally told me, she was firing me. She's also my life coach. So she's like, I wouldn't be a good life coach, or a good boss, if I kept you on. But it was, and she was serious. She was like, You got one week to decide. And that's it, you're done. And I knew that I needed to do it. But I wasn't yet taking ownership of the fact that it was okay for me to move on. And okay for me to not want to settle. I'd also been offered this other position. And I was interviewing with them as well. And I was like, I've never turned down a job before. That is not ideal for me. There just wasn't exactly what I wanted. And so it was this really freeing moment of I am fired as a nanny, so I can't stay there, no matter what I have to make a change, do I want to go and stay in that realm? Or do I want to actually take what I think that I'm passionate about. And it was this forced choice of, I have the choice to leave behind the mindset that I've had, and leave behind this poverty mentality. And actually step into something that where I make a lot more, which is scary, because when you're in that poverty line, you know, if you make a certain amount, all the programs are cut out from underneath of you. And that was what it was, I was faced with this decision of am I going to leave behind poverty, which I don't know how to do, nobody in my family is left behind poverty. And I get to have a career, nobody in my family has a career. And it was at that moment that I had a choice to make. And she coached me in a beautiful way. And Kevin did to Jamie was basically like, No, you would not like this other job that you've been offered, and you know it, and you shouldn't take it. And Kevin was like, No, you can take whatever you feel like the Lord is leading you to, if it's this other job, and you feel that that's where you need to go to further yourself and your own business of coaching, then do it. And I was like having that freedom. And those two different mindsets of it being like it's okay for whichever choice gave me the peace to be able to make the best decision for myself, and to learn my own value. And to the point where, from six months, I was a nanny, to the General Manager. That was nanny manager. And then they offered me they created a general manager position, because of how great I was at this one store, that they wanted me to take the entire brand and do it. And so it was at that that moment of being fired that my entire career path, my entire outlook on employer employee relations totally shifted.

Leighann Lovely 53:10

That is, Wow, that's amazing to have, what it kind of sounds like the devil and the angel on your shoulder and basically, right, but and I know that either one or both of them. Were were talking to you and helping you go make a decision for the best outcome. Yep. So it's not really the devil. It's more

Jamie White 53:32

like, no, they were both supporting me dry different way.

Leighann Lovely 53:35

Right? The the I don't know the angel in the, I'm not sure.

Jamie White 53:38

But it's just the two facets,

Leighann Lovely 53:41

right? You had your gift being given advice from two completely different perspectives in order to make the best decision possible for you. And clearly you have followed the path that was best for you. You were you know, you're doing awesome. And you're right. When you talk about you know, leaving that poverty line, it is a scary leap. And I am not talking necessarily from personal experience. But I have I do have some friends, some people in my circle who have yet to be able to make that leap, because you leave the comfort of knowing that you have all of this assistance, being able to back you up, just in case all of the sudden the health insurance, the whatever government age, you know, AIDS, there's the food stamps that are out there that and I don't know and I don't need to know what

Jamie White 54:45

child care, there's food stamps, there's insurance, there's heat assistance, there's rent assistance, there's welfare, there's so many programs and then you're basically hard it's hard to leave

Leighann Lovely 54:56

right and the government does not put you on a sliding scale. It's I remember, somebody actually ran the numbers for me one day and thought that total package is like 3500. Or even more, that you're basically leaving $3,500 on the on the table and saying, Okay, I can stop taking that money. And I can make up for it somewhere else that is not

Jamie White 55:19

like an arranger career shift. Yeah, to the point that, you know, had this position not come available, had I not been given this manager position, right out of seemingly nowhere, I wouldn't have been able to necessarily easily make that leap. Right. Because it, it's a major change. And it's, it's not a sliding scale. It's okay, you've got this cap, and then you're done. And it's not necessarily enough to make up for it, you have to pass that cap. Right. And it takes a okay, what do I need to do to get there? Right.

Leighann Lovely 55:53

It's an and I've had conversations with other people about, you know, the government needs to change that, because how does somebody leap from how does somebody make that leap? Unless they have the opportunity that was presented? Like yours? And it is not often that somebody gets up that opportunity? But you did?

Jamie White 56:15

No, it isn't. And it is. And I agree, I mean, honestly, when looking at the numbers, basically, because I went from making 16 grand a year, and living off of that for two people to almost double it. And that is what I had to do in order to comfortably live and will survive. And then when I became General Manager kind of changed a little bit. But in order for that, jumps have happened, like you have to make double, right, what you have been making, and it's not, it's really easy to lose those programs. But it's not necessarily easy to gain a job that you could make more at, right? It's possible, and I don't want to in any way discourage people, but it takes looking outside the normal avenues. It takes saying, Okay, what do I need to do, and that's not always College, like a lot of people think it's college, but that's not true. A lot of times, if you find what you're passionate about, you are naturally drawn to something, and you can learn to become an expert in it, and leverage your skills and create value for yourself.

Leighann Lovely 57:22

Right. Yeah. And, you know, I've heard I've heard employers say, to me, they're like, Well, I can't understand why this person won't take this promotion. You know, I'm offering, you know, $2 an hour more, or I'm offering and I'm like, they're not taking it because if they know, $2 an hour more is nothing

Jamie White 57:40

compared to nothing. Enough to kick you off. Right? Right,

Leighann Lovely 57:45

exactly. It's nothing compared to the benefits that they're getting right now. And if they lose those benefits, they will not survive. And employers, they don't they don't quite get it. They don't quite understand that when you are a single mother or when you you know, and you have children to provide for that losing. That is it's it's devastating.

Jamie White 58:08

So it is yeah.

Leighann Lovely 58:11

Yes. All right. So um, thank you so much for coming on. If somebody wanted to reach out to you or connect with you, how would they go about doing that?

Jamie White 58:20

Yeah, so they can always reach out to me at saving [e-mail], or they can find me on LinkedIn. They can also reach out to me via Facebook, which is our saving Destiny coaching Facebook page that can reach me there. So those are going to be the best options to to get in touch. Well, thank

Leighann Lovely 58:43

you again, Jamie, you are truly a brilliant woman. You've had such a an amazing path to where you are today. And I really appreciate your time.

Jamie White 58:52

Thank you. I really appreciate being here. I love these conversations. And I'm so excited for what the future holds for this.

Leighann Lovely 58:58

Excellent. Thank you again for listening to Let's Talk HR. I appreciate your time and support without you the audience this would not be possible. So don't forget that if you enjoyed this episode to follow us like us or share us. Have a wonderful day.

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