Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG podcast

#Fitness #Women's Health #Health and Well-Being #Society #Relationship #Mental Health #Anne Blythe, M.Ed #Anne Blythe #Emotional Abuse #Sexuality

26:18

How do you know when it’s time to make your next big career move? With International Women’s Day around the corner, we are excited to feature Avni Patel Thompson, Founder and CEO of Milo. Avni is building technology that directly supports the often overlooked emotional and logistical labor that falls on parents—especially women. Milo is an AI assistant designed to help families manage that invisible load more efficiently. In this episode, Avni shares her journey from studying chemistry to holding leadership roles at global brands like Adidas and Starbucks, to launching her own ventures. She discusses how she approaches career transitions, the importance of unpleasant experiences, and why she’s focused on making everyday life easier for parents. [01:26] Avni's University Days and Early Career [04:36] Non-Linear Career Paths [05:16] Pursuing Steep Learning Curves [11:51] Entrepreneurship and Safety Nets [15:22] Lived Experiences and Milo [19:55] Avni’s In Her Ellement Moment [20:03] Reflections Links: Avni Patel Thompson on LinkedIn Suchi Srinivasan on LinkedIn Kamila Rakhimova on LinkedIn Ipsos report on the future of parenting About In Her Ellement: In Her Ellement highlights the women and allies leading the charge in digital, business, and technology innovation. Through engaging conversations, the podcast explores their journeys—celebrating successes and acknowledging the balance between work and family. Most importantly, it asks: when was the moment you realized you hadn’t just arrived—you were truly in your element? About The Hosts: Suchi Srinivasan is an expert in AI and digital transformation. Originally from India, her career includes roles at trailblazing organizations like Bell Labs and Microsoft. In 2011, she co-founded the Cleanweb Hackathon, a global initiative driving IT-powered climate solutions with over 10,000 members across 25+ countries. She also advises Women in Cloud, aiming to create $1B in economic opportunities for women entrepreneurs by 2030. Kamila Rakhimova is a fintech leader whose journey took her from Tajikistan to the U.S., where she built a career on her own terms. Leveraging her English proficiency and international relations expertise, she discovered the power of microfinance and moved to the U.S., eventually leading Amazon's Alexa Fund to support underrepresented founders. Subscribe to In Her Ellement on your podcast app of choice to hear meaningful conversations with women in digital, business, and technology.…

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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No woman wants to face the horror of her husband’s betrayal. Or have to recover from the emotional, physical & financial trauma and never-ending consequences.
But these courageous women DID. And we’ll walk with you, so YOU can too.
If you’re experiencing pain, chaos, and isolation due to your husband’s lying, anger, gaslighting, manipulation, infidelity, and/or emotional abuse…
If he’s undermined you and condemned you as an angry, codependent, controlling gold-digger…
If you think your husband might be an addict or narcissist. Or even if he’s “just” a jerk…
If your husband (or ex) is miserable to be around, this podcast is for YOU.
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Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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Series home•Feed

293 episodes

#Fitness #Women's Health #Health and Well-Being #Society #Relationship #Mental Health #Anne Blythe, M.Ed #Anne Blythe #Emotional Abuse #Sexuality

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Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

1
How To Protect Children From Online Abuse with Kristen Jenson 15:19

22 hours ago15:19

15:19

Did you know that it’s considered child abuse to expose a child to pornography? Here’s how to protect children from online threats. To discover if you’re emotionally abused, take this free emotional abuse quiz . When A Child Is Exposed To Online Dangers A child’s accidental exposure to online inappropriate material. It traumatizes children who view it. They need immediate trauma-focused care to process and heal. Trauma from exposure can affect children in many ways. Often, traumatized children experience: Sleep disturbances including nightmares and insomnia Mood swings and behavioral issues Somberness, sadness Preoccupation with sexuality Fear and anxiety about safety You Can Set Boundaries To Protect Young Kids From Online Threats Courageous women who face the devastation of betrayal trauma, emotional abuse, and betrayal can find help, healing, and support as they set and maintain boundaries that keep their children safe from exploitative media. An example of a boundary that would protect women and children from the chaotic harm and abuse of exploitative media use. Is asking the user to relocate to a different living space. So that his material cannot harm anyone in the family. You Can Be Proactive In Teaching Children About Online Harms Often, children have a trauma response. All children exposed to it are abuse victims. They should be treated with compassion, respect, and the intentional care that any trauma victim would receive for abuse. In addition to trauma-focused care, women may find resources helpful in helping their children understand the truths about it. The book Good Pictures, Bad Pictures may help teach children about it. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions offer support, validation, and community to women all over the world who seek safety and healing if their husband’s exploitative content use betrayed them. Attend a session today . Transcript: How To Protect Children From Online Abuse Anne: I have a good friend on today’s episode. Her name is Kristen Jenson, and she’s the founder of Defend Young Minds , an organization that helps protect young kids from online threats by teaching them strategies and skills to use as they go about their lives. Welcome, Kristen. Kristen: Thanks, Anne. It’s great to be here with you. Anne: My kids love your books. We have them all around our house. My youngest, loves non-fiction. and so she reads them frequently. So thank you so much. Can you just start off talking about your books? Kristen: Good Pictures, Bad Pictures and Good Pictures, Bad Pictures, Junior, A Simple Plan to Defend Young Minds . They’re both number one bestsellers on Amazon and have been so for years. And you know, speaking of number one bestsellers, I know your book has been a number one bestseller, Trauma Mama Husband Drama . I love it. I mean, the illustrations are awesome. I’ve read many books that try to rhyme, and some work better than others, and yours works great. I love how you approach that. It helps it not to be so heavy, and yet you’re talking about serious topics. Women get trapped in this place where her husband looks great on the outside, but there’s a lot of trauma going on. And then I love how in the back, you’ve got lots of charts that help explain a lot of the issues. Anne: It’s frequently a bestseller in the category of teen and young adult nonfiction on abuse, which is interesting to me because I did not expect my book to be for kids. Many people have said, my children love this book. That surprised me. The Importance Of Talking About Exploitative Media Anne: I think the thing that probably surprises both of us is how ready and capable children are to learn about these difficult topics. Kristen: Kids love these books because they respond to the truth. When a book clearly shines light, I think kids just gobble it up. It’s a relief to them when you’re willing to open up and talk about it or about the effects of expolitative media in a relationship, marriage, and family. Kids are more resilient than we give them credit for, and it’s great that they have these books to help them. Anne: Can you talk about why some parents might think that not talking about it may be better for their kids? Kristen: Yeah, I totally get that it may be intuitive, because we want to protect our children from online danger and keep them innocent. Some parents think, what if I tell my kid about it, and then they get curious and look for it. Well, we owe it to our children to teach them how to thrive in this day and age. The goal is not innocence, the goal is teaching a child to make wise decisions. We teach them about all the other dangers and have drills, but somehow we think that this is different. It’s not, it’s a danger, just like every other danger. You need a proactive, intentional approach where you are working to create digital defense skills. When kids know what it is, why it’s harmful, and what to do when they see it, then and only then do they have a real choice to reject it. And they have the beginning of a defense, which of course in the end, it’s up to them. Real-Life Stories Of Preparedness Kristen: And I have so many stories of kids. One boy, like seven years old, was just going to ride bikes in the cul de sac. But they went inside and his teenage brothers said, hey, come over. We want to show you something and showed these little boys exploitative media. His mother had talked to him about it. He knew what to do and went home. He told her about it. She was able to debrief him and help him process and neutralize those memories. And she told me, our plan actually worked beautifully. She could have never predicted that that situation would happen. But she was so glad her son was prepared, and he knew what to do. He knew to tell her, she was a safe person to talk to about this. https://youtu.be/fvbr2Fx4fl4 Anne: She helped protect children from online abuse. Yeah, because they have so many questions, they’ll hear things at school. One of my sons, when he was in fifth grade, we did the maturation clinic, and I went with him. But I had already talked to him about everything. We’d already gone over everything at home. And he told me that at lunch, some kids talked about the maturation clinic, and they were giving the wrong information. And speaking of innocence. I just had two researchers on the podcast. They’re PhD level researchers, and they interviewed a bunch of women who have been through betrayal trauma. And one of the things they found was that women felt like their “innocence” had harmed them. They wish they had abuse education. They wish they had had abuse education. Protect Children From Online Abuse: Objectification & It’s Harm Anne: They wish they had more education about healthy intimacy. In general they were religious. It was like, don’t have it until you’re married. Then once you’re married, your husband will show you what to do. You don’t need education about it. Many of them had experienced abuse from their husbands, and they didn’t even know it was abuse. All of them had experienced coercion, they didn’t know that was coercion. So the knowledge of abuse is that these are the elements of healthy relationships. What I love about your materials is that they teach these healthy concepts without saying the word, to prepare children for when that conversation will happen in the future. They help protect children from online abuse, and its effects. Kristen: In the book for kids ages seven and older, talks about objectification, how it objectifies people’s bodies. And instead of seeing them as a whole person, who deserves love and respect, they’re just seen as a body or some sort of compilation of body parts. When you objectify a person, it’s easier to hurt them. And that’s another harm of online exploitation, because it shows people being mean and acting like that’s fun. And so is hurting people a good way to treat somebody? No, so that just starts to teach that basics of healthy relationships are respectful and kind, and involves the whole person and trust. Whereas it teaches the exact opposite, it involves violence, disrespect, degradation, and objectification. Online Exploitation Harms Mental Health Kristen: And you can’t tell me that watching it for years and years. And then going into a marriage will not affect your template, your expectations and your behavior. There are quite a few studies that show that is true. People who look at it have a harder time having a healthy relationship. So turns out there are quite a few studies that show the mental health harms of it. And how it is associated with a wide range of harming mental health, not only in children and adolescents, but also in adults. I would say there are more studies with adults, obviously, it is associated with greater loneliness. This content predicts depression and anxiety. There was a study that showed that both general and aggressive use alone were associated with less relationship satisfaction and relationship stability. Even when accounting for a range of potentially confounding variables. One in Germany was with over 1500 German speaking users, ages 18 to 76. It showed that users with problematic content use scored significantly higher in many problems, obsessive compulsive behavior, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation. Also, they scored significantly worse in every measure of psychological functioning considered, including again, OCD, interpersonal sensitivity, depression, anxiety, hostility, phobic anxiety, paranoid ideation, and psychoticism. They also found that these results were elevated to a clinically relevant degree compared with the general population. The intensity of these problems was categorized as severe psychological distress. I could go on and on, but basically using it creates poor mental health outcomes. Kids should know that it does harm their mental health. There are so many studies that show this is true. There is a need protect children from online abuse to prevent long term damage. Dopamine & Gender Differences In Online Explotative Exposure Kristen: The other problem with kids using it: there’s so many problems, but one of them is the dopamine. It sets your dopamine level so high that normal things that kids used to really enjoy, like exploring the backyard and looking for bugs you know, are just boring. So it’s messing with the dopamine in the brain. What would those kids learn and develop? So there’s lost opportunity for normal development. It appears to delay normal social development and cognitive development. These are all things that parents need to be concerned about when it comes to handing a device to a child. Parents need to know how protect children from online abuse. Anne: As you’ve been working with parents over the years to educate their kids about these harms and protect children from online harm. Have you seen any gender differences between the information boys need and girls need? Kristen: Yes, I have. Girls often get into it differently than boys, but they often end up in the same place. You know, girls are interested in relationships. So they like stories, and they will be pulled in through erotic literature, through fan fiction, even through anime and cartoons. They’ll be pulled in that way, but often end up with the videos. So I’ve been writing a book for girls to teach them the harms of it, not only themselves as they watch it. But it harms them if they get into a relationship with somebody who is also watching it. There’s quite a bit of research now that shows that if both partners watch it together, they have like threefold risk for infidelity, which is harmful to a relationship. We Need To Protect Kids From Online Threats Anne: Well, and we view it as infidelity at Betrayal Trauma Recovery, so they’re already… Kristen: Yes, Anne: …being unfaithful. If they are, they’re both unfaithful. Kristen: Absolutely. We want to help girls understand that there are other ways to get into it It’s not just the bad pictures you see. It’s also the bad pictures that can be created in your mind through books and stories. And even explicit cartoons are dangerous and addicting. This a way to protect children from online danger. Anne: Well, Kristen, your work is incredible. My kids love it. I’m so grateful it organizes things in a way that is easy to approach the topic. So I’m like, win, win, win. Go to defendyoungminds.com to learn more about her resources. Thank you so much, Kristen, for spending time talking with me today. Kristen: Thank you, Anne it’s been a pleasure.…

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

1
How To Deal With An Addict Husband – Evangeline’s Story 53:38

8 days ago53:38

53:38

If you’re struggling to deal with an addict husband, we get it. We’re here for you. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are for women who have done everything they can to fix their marriage, but their addict husband is still causing trouble. To see if your husband’s addiction causes him to be emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz . And listen (above) to Evangeline’s story to see if you relate, or read the transcript below. You’re not alone. Transcript: How To Deal With An Addict Husband Anne: A member of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community is on today’s episode. We’re calling her Evangeline. Welcome, Evangeline. Evangeline: Thank you for talking with me, Anne. I’m so grateful for the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community. Anne: Let’s start at the beginning. Can you talk about how you felt about your husband at first? Evangeline: Ours was like a real romance. I thought I married the man of my dreams, that I earned and deserved this as a good Christian girl and woman. I was in love, head over heels in love. He checked all the boxes. He had faith, honored and respected me, and did many thoughtful gestures. Anne: Back then, did you notice anything a bit off, and how did you define that? Evangeline: There were moments. I suspected he may be an addict early on and thought he acted out in his “addiction” in isolated moments. Like, just a few times a year. He’d apologize and say it wouldn’t happen again. I never told anyone because it was infrequent. I just thought he’s growing up, he’s figuring it out. As long as it doesn’t get any worse, I’m going to be okay. We’re going to be okay. How To Deal With An Addict Husband When He Lies Evangeline: He introduced pornography into our marriage. I said, no, I didn’t like that. I became uncomfortable. He’s telling me he’s watching pornography to learn how to be a better husband. How to maybe be a better lover or to be more educated. Anne: A flat out lie. He just watched it so he could masturbate. Evangeline: Totally. It didn’t help him be a “better” anything. I found infidelity 15 to 20 years into my marriage. The reality was, I can’t tell you how many incidences. I lived in fear. There is no way to deal with this when your husband says he’s an addict. The Reality of My Husband’s Addiction Evangeline: And really why would I know how to deal with an addicted husband? My parents raised me sheltered and uninformed. And he seemed to love and adore me. I felt so blessed at the time. This was a godsend, an answer to prayer. Anne: It makes total sense. That is exactly what you would think, especially under the circumstances. You think he’s a man of God, because that’s what he has told you. Evangeline: The first 10 years of our marriage were a blur. Our two youngest out of three kids had severe medical issues. Those years were just survival. I took women’s Bible study and women’s leadership. The Sacrifices You Make When Your Husband is An Addict I did bookkeeping for multiple churches and nonprofits. He also played a part in my business. He did taxes for some of the customers I had. My business was thriving. About 13 or so years into our marriage, we decided to move across the country. He wanted us to go down to one income, one job. So I sold my business to another accountant in our city. And I became a full time stay at home mom for the next 16 years. I didn’t know what would happen when I gave up my financial security and ability to take care of myself. I needed safety, because my husband was an addict, and that was an unsafe situation. The Christian evangelical community promoted and encouraged us to be stay-at-home moms. I didn’t realize that as a woman, I was putting myself at risk for the situation I’m now currently in. He Wanted Power & Control Evangeline: I can see it now that he wanted more power and control. If he’s an addict, you can start seeing the patterns. Like, when I started going back to school, he was not supportive. He would call me in the middle of my day, interrupt me when he’d never done that before. This behavior felt like more that just being an “addict husband.” I would keep my study time to only the hours my kids were at school. I could only study when I had no other duties. He Didn’t Want Me To Improve Myself Evangeline: It was obvious he didn’t want me to improve myself, or show interest in any of my hobbies. And that was shocking. His addiction meant he only wanted me the version of myself he married at 22. He didn’t allow me to grow and change. I wasn’t allowed to be an educated and degreed adult. I had to be the high school graduate. He simply wanted my attention only on him. Anne: One part of The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop teaches that we all have special talents and interests. But sometimes, when a husband struggles with addiction, he makes us think our life should only be about him. This workshop helps us realize that we were created to live our own life. My Addict Husband Got In the Way Of My Career Evangeline: Yes, only certain activities met his approval, such as my kid’s medical issues. I could do ministry and women’s ministry through my churches. And I’m learning that my husband is an “addict”. But the more my information and knowledge about abuse increased, the more his behavior became destructive and worse. Realizing What My Husband Being An Addict Meant To Me Evangeline: I think back now, and I’m like, my life was out of control. My personal life was in mayhem. In fact, the only place stable was work. My spouse was an addict to an extreme level. As an “addict”, he was also acting out with other women. Sometimes I think we just go through a series of betrayals that are so deep and so intense. It’s almost like when he does it again, you’re in such a state of shock. The reverberations from each of these betrayals almost paralyze you. It’s like you couldn’t even react anymore. My hypervigilance became extreme. I was waiting for the next one to happen. And at some point, I’m became numb. I developed severe agoraphobia. When An Addict Gets Caught At Work Evangeline: We moved four times in 10 years. I lived in four States in 10 years. These were all moves related to him changing jobs. There were multiple incidents with his employers or with a fellow employee. I would never get the whole story or the whole truth. But I knew enough to know that he was misbehaving and acting inappropriately, unprofessionally with subordinates. When he started the last job he had when I was with him, he had already started a relationship with a woman at work before the rest of the family moved. But I didn’t know that. All those years, I was fighting for my marriage. Even though it was a complete disaster, full betrayal, full addiction. It was so exhausting constantly having to manage an addicted husband. I didn’t realize what his addiction was doing to me. I just thought, “He needs help to overcome his addiction. And I’d still be there for him once he figured it out.” That’s truly what I thought. I said to him, “I’ll give you the freedom to figure out your problems, get help, and do what you got to do.” Anne: You’re still in this, like, willing to help your husband with his “addiction”? Manipulation & Prolonged Abuse Because many times a husband will say, “I’m an addict” to manipulate us to “help” him. But it’s just to continue to exploit us. Evangeline: Yes! He used it to continue to exploit me for sure! I said, “You go get help”. Your addiction is ruining your career. I do not feel safe, I need you to get into a 12 Step Program. Also, you need therapy . So in addiction therapy, the therapist had us create one shared password for all our emails and accounts. We set up accountability and transparency. So I don’t know how he did it, but he still watched explicit material, and had conversations with other women. He would just “slip up” here and there until life became just one constant slip up. I didn’t realize what was actually happening. The Myth Of Keeping Your Addict Husband Satisfied Evangeline: I’d never spoken to anyone about my marriage. I remember telling one woman at church that I had become fairly good friends about with what I’d found on his phone. He had inappropriate texts with a woman at work. I truly believed the teaching that if you keep your husband busy and satisfied, filling his mind with thoughts of you, it would help him deal with his addiction. She told me that if I satisfy him, he wouldn’t need to seek out explicit material or other women. When I decide to do something, I’ll go all in. And so I followed that advice, and it didn’t work. It failed. He cheated, betrayed, and continued in his addiction. Isolation, Fear & Discovering What His “Addiction” Really Meant Evangeline: I took a leave of absence. I began to search for any resource I could find, betrayal trauma, addiction and narcissistic personality disorder. It wasn’t until I started listening to The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast . And I heard other women share their stories of what it was like to be married to an addict. I suddenly heard something I identified with. And of course, at the beginning, I didn’t understand that you can’t take this information to an addict husband. But I made that mistake of taking him the information I was learning. Misunderstanding Addiction Evangeline: And I truly thought if I just approached him the right way. If I had the magic way to say it, he will understand and see the light. I know he’s intelligent, smart and capable. I must be failing. I’m not saying it right. Let me help my addict husband by trying it all in different ways. He’s bound to get it eventually. Then he began turning what I knew against me. He started saying that I was the abuser and that I was the one causing problems. The scariest part of my story with him happened when we moved to this state for his job. This was the first time he worked at a hospital for behavioral health. He was the CFO at the hospital. Even though he has no mental health education of any kind. Maybe Psychology 101 that everyone has to take in college. He’s an executive for the facility. But he’s coming home and telling me, you wouldn’t believe the wonders that we see in patients receiving shock treatment. It’s actually still a valid treatment practiced today, and you wouldn’t believe how these people are emotionally stable due to shock treatment. And he’s like, you should look into it. Anne: For you? Evangeline: Yes, he scared me so bad. At that point, I struggled with severe agoraphobia. I was terrified, knew no one in a strange city. I had no friends, no family, and no one to call and talk to. Feeling Complete Isolation While Dealing With My Addict Husband Evangeline: I was completely isolated and terrified. If I can’t trust people I live with, who are supposed to be for me. And the people who are supposed to love me and have my back? How could I possibly trust a stranger? I knew I could trust my coworkers in my child advocacy work, but beyond that, I had no one personally. And I was terrified. I was terrified he would commit me against my will and that I would have a shock treatment done to me against my will. And you lose memory, and looking back now that I know that’s one of the effects of that treatment. I understand why he wanted it so bad. We had reached a point in our marriage where I had learned so many truths. There was no return from that knowledge. Anne: Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. Evangeline: You can’t unsee it. And I didn’t realize then how desperate he was for me to not know the truth of him. I know it now. Anne: So you become a child advocate, recognize what abuse is, but still don’t recognize that he’s abusive. Then you recognize that he’s abusive, and you think, oh, if I can just explain it well enough. By the way, this is totally normal. You’re completely normal. I went through the same thing, trying to help my “addicted husband.” I think every abuse victim does. Because they’ve manipulated us to think they’ve like given us that impression. They’ve gaslit us to think that. So then, you go through that phase, which we’ve all been through, of okay. If I can explain it to him, or if I can get him to the right therapist or something, then he’ll get help. Therapist Disappointment Evangeline: He went to a therapist, and I went to one appointment not to do a couples therapy. But to say, hey, I want to hear from the therapist that you are telling the therapist everything. Anne: Is this a CSAT, or is this a, what type of therapist? Is it an addiction specialist? Evangeline: They do therapy for addiction. Just a traditional therapist with addiction training. I told both therapists, “I’m not safe, I’m not safe, and I’m not sure what he’s doing next. That’s going to destroy me and the kids, our lives. I’m terrified.” Did you know that neither of those therapists had one thing to offer me? Not one thing. They didn’t follow up, and they didn’t have anything to give me. Anne: That is unfortunately most women’s experience when they work with an addiction specialist for their spouse. It’s so disappointing, invalidating, and frankly dangerous. And that’s why I started our group sessions and our individual sessions. And also why I wrote the Living Free Workshop. The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop helps women determine their adddict husband’s true character, and then teaches safety strategies. So basically, it helps women know exactly what’s going on, and then also what’s going to happen next. Because I found most therapists, therapy in general, especially couple therapy or therapy for troubled marriages. They just look at you and blink. They might say the word boundaries, but they don’t know how to actually teach boundaries, because “communication” is always the solution when it comes to therapy. And “communication” doesn’t help with an addicted husband. So I am so sorry. That’s so discouraging. So they just like stared at you and just like blinked at you. False Hope In Addiction Therapy Evangeline: That’s what they did. They had nothing to offer, no suggestions for a safety plan, and didn’t look to him and say, we need to stop now. At this point, we weren’t addressing the misconduct. We were addressing his behavior with addiction. It was out of control and dangerous. Anne: Though it felt terrible to you at the time, and they did not do the right thing, there is a silver lining there, and it’s that they didn’t say, oh, I can help both of you. And this is how we’re going to do this. And the reason why that’s a silver lining is that false hope. Sometimes we call it hopium around here that, like, oh, I will treat your husband and make him safe for you, is super dangerous. We don’t recommend any men’s programs, because we’ve seen them use that to continue to manipulate and control, and they weaponize all the therapy language. It almost makes them like super abusers, because they know how to speak. And it gets scary quickly. When they’ve become these like almost mutants of themselves through learning the therapy language. Did you experience that part, where they’re good at using the therapy language as weapons against us? Evangeline: When we were separated for a year, I felt it a little. I asked for a space where we could talk and actually work things out. Whenever we talked alone, the conversations just went in circles. We kept jumping from one thing to another without solving anything. I still cared about my marriage and wanted it to work, even though we had been apart for a year. I requested, can we find a therapist where we will have space to have conversations? My Addict Husband Was 99 Percent Done Evangeline: So we’re both held accountable for how we participate in that conversation, not couples counseling. this point, even though I still desire to keep my marriage and future, he said I’m 99 percent done. You know what that did to me? It took me a couple of appointments before I finally understood that statement. I’m 99 percent done. There was that 1 percent chance, and that dangle. I was the one dangling. He was exercising that power of dangling me, even though he was done. He was already living with a woman for a couple of years. I just didn’t know it. My kids knew it, he knew it. And no one told me. I was the only one. But he kept saying, I’m just 99 percent done. So I’m thinking, okay, he’s not going to the top. The therapist knew he’d thrown in the towel before I did. https://youtu.be/p-PCyiQQrp0 Anne: It’s so hard. And I’m guessing the therapist didn’t mention this is abuse either. Evangeline: No. Anne: Yeah. Evangeline: And that therapist actually with the credentials is trained and should have known it, should have seen. Anne: Generally, therapists don’t have abuse training. It’s a weird, strange situation. Because people think therapists should have abuse training, but in general, they don’t have a lot of it. They don’t assess abuse. When they think he is abusive. And I am the best therapist, and I can help him with his abuse. That scares me actually even more than the person who doesn’t recognize it. Because if the guy didn’t want to be abusive, he knows what he’s doing, and he would have stopped his abuse already. He Knows He’s Lying & Therapy Won’t Help Anne: Therapy isn’t going to help him. It makes me nervous. Evangeline: I’ve since learned therapy doesn’t fix the abuser. Anne: For those of us, me included, who thought, he just needs to know what’s going on, where I went wrong there. And I described this well and why this happens in the BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop . He knew what he was doing. So he knew he was lying and what happened. And so if I was like, ah, this is what’s happening. He already knew it wouldn’t change him. Because if knowing would have changed him, he already knew, it would have changed him already. It was the opposite. He knew exactly what he was doing, and he was doing it on purpose. Evangeline: It is hard. It’s really hard to come to terms with the fact that the person you committed to your life, that you love, honor, and cherish. And you bring such a beautiful, valuable side to the relationship to the table. It’s so hard to imagine they’re doing these destructive things on purpose. And they actually don’t care how much you’re harmed, how deep you’re hurt, how devastated you are. And then you get blamed for your response for being emotional or angry. For being any of the valid emotions you’re supposed to experience. When you face betrayal, shock, hurt, devastation, and your life imploding, you’re going to have those emotions. Those are valid, and they’re appropriate. For those to get judged, I mean, you’re emotionally unstable, you’ve got the problem. But their decades of behavior suddenly is not even the issue or not even the focus. Corporate Retreat Revelation Evangeline: You know, Anne, there’s one more part of my story. Before I became an advocate, we were actually on a corporate retreat for his work. So all the wives did a spa day together, and we were having healthy girl talk, nothing inappropriate. It was spending this time with these other women who were not from the evangelical community in which I was raised. They were just average, ordinary, great women. We were talking about marriage and intimacy. And I had made a comment that we have intimacy, and it’s healthy in my marriage. It’s great, in fact, if he feels the need to be intimate, even if I’m passed out and asleep, I was okay if he needed to be intimate. And the reaction from these women. Anne: You were sharing what you thought was an example of your healthy intimacy, thinking they would be like, oh, that is so healthy that we can be intimate. Evangeline: Yes. Anne: …with you when you’re passed out. Evangeline: I was so ingrained with my only role and goal in life, which is to please him to whatever self sacrifice I need to do. My purpose is to please him. Even if that means using my body when I am asleep and on sleeping medication, I cannot verbally consent or even have any memory or knowledge it happened afterward. I thought that was my duty as his wife to provide that for him, in order to help my husband with his addiction. No husband should ever do that ever. You have to consent. I’m like, I consented. I and they told me, no, that’s not consent. You have to be conscious in the moment, consent in the moment. And so I started having conversations with my spouse about it. How To Deal With An Addict: Realizing the Extent of The Abuse Evangeline: And it turned out he’d been doing this way longer than I knew, and it was something he continued to do. Even after that conversation, he did it for years. Anne: I’m so sorry. Evangeline: You know, it was shocking when I found out. The times I didn’t know, it’s like if he did it and then told me, and I knew it was somehow a little better and okay. But finding out it had been going on for years. And then once this conversation started happening with him, this person inside out. You know, when they start lying, you can tell when they are not truthful with you. And then it was having all the subsequent conversations. And in each of those, his lies grew more. The retellings, the details would change in his retellings. And then having these conversations with him is when I would begin to get flooded with flashbacks. Where I would have some conscious recall, and I didn’t know what to do with that. I had nowhere to turn. I was alone in that. And I still stayed married and had a very active, intimate life with him for many more years to come, like eight more years. It was hard to reconcile. Anne: Absolutely. Evangeline: When you have the good times, and then you have the falling apart times, and then you have the shock and awe times of like, is he really? Is he that bad? Is he that vile? No, I have to be misunderstanding. That had to have been an exception. That can’t have been the norm. Again, it’s just a series of traumas that never seemed to end. The Final Separation & Divorce After Years Of Supporting His Addiction Recovery Evangeline: So when I finally separate from him, I finally realize my marriage is over. That I can’t deal with his addiction anymore. I need a divorce. I had at that point already done betrayal trauma work. It was a 17 month divorce with a full trial. I then turned around, and the week I turned 50, he filed the appeal. So I had another 17 month long court. I just won the appeal, but he’s still challenging my win. I actually got a text two weeks ago on the 4th of this month, communicating that exact thought. He said, just be reasonable the way you saw me once upon a time. He wants me to be that 22 year old bride who thinks he is the most amazing person ever. Who can do no wrong. And unless I view him like that, I’m not reasonable. Because I’m asking for something that the law legally entitles me to ask for. From Focus on the Family , “Help your husband be the hero to your children.” I chose to do it with my kids, and even though he was working late or I didn’t know where he was. I told them, “Oh, your dad wishes he was here. He’ll be here as soon as he can. You have a great dad who loves you.” I said those things, and I didn’t just do it once. I kept saying it for years. Realizing All The Abuse Anne: And you did it because you thought it would help. It was actually an act of resistance on your part. So I want you to, like, hold your head up high. Because you genuinely thought that it would improve things. It wasn’t because you’re stupid. It wasn’t because… Evangeline: No. Anne: …your brain doesn’t work. It’s not because you’re emotionally unstable. It’s an act of resistance. It was the only thing you could think of at the time to keep yourself safe. And the sad thing is they’re preying on women’s vulnerabilities. They should educate women about abuse to “focus on the family”, and strengthen a family. Evangeline: Yes, Anne, I’m 51. It took me decades to understand all the abuse I experienced in my marriage. No one teaches this in most evangelical groups. Schools don’t really teach it either, especially private Christian schools. I went to a private Christian school for 13 years, and no one ever talked about abuse—not in class, not in church, not even in women’s ministries. For ten years, I led in my role, but no one ever brought me a lesson saying we should stop supporting addicted husbands unconditionally. Advocacy & Awareness We don’t teach women how to be a good support, how to be a safe place to live, how to be a good friend. Can I walk alongside a woman in the middle of trauma, abuse, and betrayal? What should I say? What should I not say? So big churches we have, is that in their bookstores? These materials are not on their bookstore shelves. They’re not promoting them. It is a missed opportunity. Anne: That is why I started podcasting. To educate everyone that abuse causes betrayal trauma. A husband’s addiction will always be abusive to you, their wife. The lies, the gaslighting, all that is abuse. You can’t call it anything else. Evangeline: We didn’t know about erectile dysfunction either. And that my husband needed to begin the pill for that in his early 30’s. I never even learned that fact until my late forties. I didn’t even know that piece of information. Evangeline: For over 15 years, I didn’t know things that should be simple to understand. Women need to understand what they’re going through. We need to learn the words and meanings to describe it. For example, if your husband is an addict, you are experiencing abuse and betrayal. Infidelity Is Abuse: Dealing With An Addict Husband Anne: I think one of the reasons why it’s not common knowledge. They want you to think that their shame causes it, childhood trauma, or something. When many of us feel shame or have childhood trauma. We have problems, and we don’t lie to people and deceive them on purpose. So many people pretend or act like this isn’t a choice, a conscious choice to harm people and exploit them. But that is what it is, and it’s really hard for the courts to wrap their heads around it. For therapists to wrap their heads around it. For friends and family, to realize that abuse is a conscious choice. He knows what he’s doing, and it’s harmful. And of course, she’s upset. Of course, she’s hypervigilant. Anyone going through that is hypervigilant, because someone was hurting her on purpose. She was trying to avoid the chaos her “addict” husband was causing. Like, it’s hard for people to wrap their heads around it. So I’m so grateful that you were willing to come on today to share your story. Because all of us sharing our story helps other women realize what’s going on. So your bravery today to share has been amazing. Evangeline: Thank you for having me Anne. We’re here for you. If you related to any part of Evangeline’s story, we’d love to see you in a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY.…

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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Betrayal Trauma In Relationships: What You Need To Know 16:24

15 days ago16:24

16:24

Have you experienced betrayal trauma in relationships? Have you been betrayed, emotionally abused, and abandoned? Disbelieved, dismissed, and even shunned? If so, listen as these betrayal victims share their advice for other women. If you need actual support from women who understand, attend a live Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. The Right Support To Help You Identify if Betrayal Trauma is in Your Relationship If you discover your husband betrayed you, knowing what to is difficult. Sometimes clergy, therapists, even the legal system dismiss women’s trauma after betrayal. Betrayal Trauma Recovery empowers women when they become educated about what to do. One of the key things to do if you’ve been betrayed is determining if there has also been emotional abuse. To discover if his betrayal includes emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz . Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Relationships Anne: We have a very special episode today. Victims of Betrayal, trauma in Relationships share their stories about what helped them heal, I asked them to record what their thoughts were and send those recordings to me so here are those recordings. She Learned How to Create Boundaries Due To The Betrayal Trauma In Her Relationship Betrayal Trauma Victim #1: We tried many counselors, including CSATS, and have been doing that quite some time. Being on BTR for just a few weeks has made all the difference, and I can see the behaviors now much more clearly, the dysfunction. Being on every day and getting the validation from the coaches and other women has been tremendously helpful to me. Life changing. She Received Life-Changing Support Betrayal Trauma Victim #2: Um, I’m grateful for Betrayal Trauma Recovery. I was able to get clear thinking about what I witnessed and what was going on. Listening to the podcast and then having the coaches talk with us individually helped me classify and figure out strategies for handling, grooming, gaslighting, and things that I didn’t have words for until I got into BTR. But I think the most significant thing was to get that outside myself and apply it in different situations. And one was with my husband’s counselor. Very traditionally, he would like to do marriage counseling, and I learned with BTR that there has to be a certain level of health before that would be successful. I was able to state that with my husband’s counselor to say to him, his sex before marriage, the pornography, all those things are not marriage problems. They cause marriage problems, but they are his personal problems until he addresses them. Marriage counseling will not be successful, and I will not participate. But it was BTR that empowered me to understand, one, I have a voice, and two, that was a very logical way to handle the situation. And the counselor was taken aback, but he saw what I was saying, and he took another course with my husband, which actually helped my husband more. So I’m very grateful for BTR and the coaches, and thankful for the daily presence of having somewhere to go. Where the craziness around us can be processed and we can come to a place of peace. She Learned That She’s Not Crazy Betrayal Trauma Victim #3: BTR Group Sessions have amazing coaches who have also walked this path. They can give appropriate advice, encouragement, and help answer questions and guide you along the path of recovery. BTR gave me the words and the terminology to put to how I was feeling. And knowing the right words to describe my feelings helped calm my soul and helped me to not feel so crazy. There have been several moments when I was full of panic, anxiety, and fear because of the situations at home with my husband, and I was able to get on BTR Group within a couple of hours and talk through it, get the comfort and validation that I needed and advice if it was needed. BTR Group has been a lifesaver for me on many occasions. It’s a safe place where I can cry and let it all out and share my fears, no matter how silly they may seem to others. The coaches and other women in the group understand and get it. It’s a judgment free zone where I can be me and fully accepted for who I am, for all my faults and failures and my accomplishments. Gave Her Strength When She Needed It BTR helped me to set and hold appropriate boundaries for my safety, which helped me to feel confident and empowered. The coaches and other women in the group give me validation to know I am not crazy, and that others have been through the same thing. I love being in the group and hearing other women’s stories and questions. And often they have the same questions I have, and sometimes questions I had, but I didn’t know that I had, or how to ask. And so many times the advice given to other women was just what I needed to hear. I’ve been doing BTR groups since the beginning, and it’s great to build that relationship with the coaches, and to have them tell me how much improvement and growth they have seen in me. BTR group is the friend I never had and needed so desperately. I have felt so alone for so many years. BTR came into my life when I needed them most, and to have the coaches with me through this journey of healing. I honestly can say I don’t know where I’d be without the BTR Group Sessions. I credit so much of my healing and strength to the coaches and other women in the group. BTR Group has helped me become a better person, healthier person, stronger, more confident, and empowered. The Horrific Experience of Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Betrayal Trauma Victim #4: I was going through a really ugly part of the divorce. I was dealing with a lot of very covert abuse, very mean and horrible to me and my younger daughter, but nice to everyone else. A family in our church took my 16 year old daughter and I into their home. She was going through some issues also. And she said, “You’ve got to attend BTR Group Sessions.” And, I started attending BTR Group Sessions and listening to BTR Podcasts, and was surprised at the connection with the pornography. I actually went to counseling. I’d been going to counseling for years, with my marital problems. And nobody had ever made that connection before. And when I brought it up to my therapist at Kaiser, she said, “Oh, that’s interesting. I’d never made that connection before.” And I just kept listening to BTR Podcasts and it was so intriguing. I hadn’t even thought about the connection of with coercive control. That hit me really hard. I think it gave me more validation because even though I really can’t confront him about that, we were on zero communication. It gave me a lot of validation to know that I’m not crazy, that no matter how this looks to everyone else, I’m suffering horribly and I’m not crazy. I appreciate the BTR podcast and the Group Sessions. It’s been invaluable to me, and I just thank you for it. I Learned Self Worth and Self Care Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #5: BTR was recommended to me by my counselor. She recommended that I get into group. She said it was important that I get into group while still seeing her. The great thing about BTR group sessions is how they’ve helped me. So you have all different coaches who bring with them all different areas expertise. I have found that when I get on these groups, I get all this coaching and support, and hearing other from other women’s experiences. It has helped me know that I’m not alone, because it is so easy to feel so alone in all this. One of the things that’s important is having safe people. If you have people around you that don’t necessarily understand your experience, you don’t feel safe. And BTR creates that safe environment. So the women in these groups are safe. You never feel judged. You’re not going to have people tell you how you should think or do. It’s completely safe. And while each woman’s experience is unique, we all share commonalities. And having that support helped me through the most traumatic relational experience in my life. She Experienced Betrayal Trauma In Her Relationship Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #6: I truly believe Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session s saved my life. I’ve made lifetime friends, the only ones who understand my feelings, who have gone through the same things. Each coach has their own special traits, and seeing the different views of the same subject or seeing things in different ways or suggestions helps make you feel safe. She Found Clarity After Years of Marriage Trauma Betrayal Trauma Recovery Victim #7: My husband was in recovery and having. All of these meetings each week and having all the help he needs and counseling. And I felt like I was being left out in the dark. I was at the end of my rope. So I started searching for something to help me. I found BTR. I decided that’s what would be best for me. So I started attending the group. I have found that having this group has been the best thing that ever happened to me. It has taught me what self care means. It’s taught me a lot of things about gaslighting and DARVO and things I’d never heard of before. They’ve helped me through a lot of really hard situations. The group has been so supportive . The women are amazing. Everyone has their own story to tell, but each person gets validation and support that they need and feedback from the coaches as well as each other. It’s been great to know that I’m not alone in this, that there’s other women who have struggled the same as I have, and that I can be there to support them, and they can be there to support me. She Finally Had A Name For Her Experience This group, I lean on it a lot. When I’m going through hard times, and I don’t understand everything happening with my addict, they help clarify situations for me, and give me options. They also give me a place to share, and I feel safe, and I’m not being judged. I just want to let others know how wonderful the BTR group has been for me, and I would recommend it for anyone who’s going through betrayal trauma , so they can learn and grow. I feel like I’ve learned and grown from the first time I attended to this day. I’ve learned self worth. I’ve learned what self care is, things that I didn’t even understand when I started attending Group Sessions. So I just want to thank all the coaches, everyone. Received Validation & Encouragement Betrayal Trauma Victim #8: I really appreciate how you validated everybody, first by listening, and then by encouraging them in their own insights and giving them, you know, advice. permission to do and be whatever they needed to at that moment. I have not experienced that with counseling, though I’ve been through a lot. Yeah, it’s been a trial. And so I recognize the uniqueness of it and it’s just amazing. To learn more, please check out our Group Schedule as well as The Living Free Workshop . https://youtu.be/oN42vaE6ZjA…

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again? – Shelly’s Story 36:07

22 days ago36:07

36:07

Women who have discovered their husband’s lies often wonder, “What if I can never trust my husband again?” The first step to knowing if you can trust your husband again is to determine the truth about what’s going on. It may be that he’s using invisible emotional abuse tactics. To uncover if his lying is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz . Getting Support While I Determine If I Can Trust My Husband Again Most women need support as they work to figure out what’s going on. To get support from women who understand, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. Transcript: What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. I’m going to call her Shelly. She’s here to share her story of wondering what if she can ever trust her husband again? Welcome Shelly. Shelly: Hi, thank you. Anne: So Shelly has experienced betrayal trauma in multiple relationships. Let’s start at the beginning. Shelly: Okay, so I was actually born into betrayal trauma . I didn’t know that until recently. But my biological father cheated on my pregnant mother. So literally all that stuff in her body, all those hormones, feelings, and emotions when she was pregnant with me were going into me too. She sank into deep postnatal depression after my birth. And then, and obviously, betrayal trauma. And she couldn’t fully take care of me. My mother neglected me as a baby, not through any fault of her own. Because she wasn’t able to cope emotionally with what she was going through. When I turned seven, she met my stepdad. Who I didn’t trust. I had this sense that there was something wrong, even as a child. And later, when I was in my teens, he was also leading a double life. He watched pornography, and made advances towards some of my male friends. When I was a teenager. This led me to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire. Because a much older man groomed me in his forties when I was around sixteen. I believed I was in a relationship with him, but now I understand it was not, I was his victim. Teenage Trauma & Abuse Shelly: He abused me on every level you can imagine. He was an addict. And chose to use explicit material every day, like degrees beyond comprehension. He made no effort to hide this and was completely open about it. He humiliated me. I was a young teenage woman, and he took photos of me and showed them around. Even now, I know they’re still in the world. Years later, after leaving him, I found out from friends that he’d shown them. He tried to make money off those, I don’t doubt that. I got pregnant at 19, and left him to protect my son. He beat me while I held him, this wasn’t unusual at all. He worsened the violence when I was pregnant. So when I had my son, I think I’d just turned 20, I was in the hospital for a week and he was having sex with someone else. I was with him for a very short time after that. And then I fled, and I left all my family and friends behind. And I left the county to try and find safety for my son. While learning to be a mother, I was also going through what I didn’t understand was PTSD, which I now understand. It was only years later that I understood this. Anne: Have you ever considered yourself a victim of trafficking with that man who took pictures of you and disseminated it as online? Shelly: I do now,. I was not comfortable. Because I saw the photos that he was like parading around, and you can see how uncomfortable I was. I have a son who’s not much younger than I was now. Grooming & Exploitation Shelly : I was a child, and he was friends with people in that world. I remember him saying to me, I could have you in prostitution if I wanted to. He said it like, I look after you so well, I’m not putting you into that world. Look how well I treat you. There was definitely the whole relationship, grooming, it was an abusive relationship. It was someone preying on someone who was young and naive. Anne: Your story sounds similar to trafficking victims. They’re not aware of grooming. They think it’s a relationship, but they don’t realize he’s targeted them for this purpose. Shelly: A hundred percent, yeah. I’m aware of that now. But it took me a few years to, in fact it was fairly recently. I actually looked back and was like, that wasn’t a relationship. I was just, it was like trafficking. He used me and my body in any way he desired. He cheated me, lied, and now I’ve heard he’s in the industry. Shelly: Yeah, so I don’t have any contact with him. I disappeared, feared for my life, and ran away. Anne: He now is, but it sounds like he was at the time too. Shelly: Yeah, and he was around a lot of people in that sort of lifestyle. Anne: The exploitation business. Shelly: Exactly, he completely exploited me. I stayed there for four years with him through mental, emotional, physical, he’d used humiliation. He used to enjoy humiliating me in that way. It took a long time to get over. But then you can’t heal them. Finding Safety & New Relationships Shelly: You fall into another relationship and you’re abused again. Anne: I’m so sorry. That sounds awful. Shelly: Yeah, it was years later. So since I had my son, I was looking for a safe family. I just wanted to bring my children up in a happy home. So I fell into another relationship with a man I believed I loved. Later, I found out he’s a complete pathological liar. He wasn’t violent with me. So I thought I was safe, because of my experience before. I didn’t recognize what he was doing to me as abuse, but he was verbally vile to me a lot. He broke my identity apart. He told me who I was and who I wasn’t, and chipped away at me. He’d go out all night, not come home, be full of lies. I knew, my heart knew he wasn’t loyal to me. So because of my past, I thought I had trust issues. And the men I’ve been with have propagated this idea. They’re like, oh yeah, you’ve got trust issues. This is the damage that you’ve got because of your past. Anne: Did he tell you you had trust issues as a way to manipulate you? Shelly: Yeah, completely. At the end of the relationship, I turned into a detective. And found out I was still breastfeeding my daughter when he had an affair with someone else. And the way I found out was so horrific. I got an itemized phone bill, and there were thousands of the same number. My instincts told me something wasn’t right. So I got this itemized phone bill. I rang and a woman answered, and I just knew. He Tells So Many Lies Shelly: When I confronted him, the gaslighting went, like, through the roof. He pulled out all the stops. And so I called her with a completely open heart. And believed my husband lied to her too. Because I knew he was a liar, he was good at it. I’d seen him lie to people around us, and just think, like, why? I don’t understand why you’re lying about this stuff, when there’s no need to. He was just pathological with it, and I approached her. I messaged her. And said look, I believe he’s married and lying to you too. And she didn’t reply for a while, but then when she did, she sent me 17 screenshots of their messages together. I had a baby that was one years old, that I was breastfeeding. We’d not long been on our first family holiday. And he messaged this woman with my daughter sitting on his knee whilst we were on holiday. She verbally attacked me and called me every name under the sun. I approached her with no venom. He is lying to you as well. Because this is what’s actually happening. He is married. And she, the abuse I got off her was horrendous. She threatened my 16 year old son, messaged him and threatened him, she was awful. And, yeah, I lost a stone in two weeks after that. I stopped eating. I was in what I now know to be, strong betrayal trauma . My whole world was falling apart. My Friend Becomes My Partner Shelly: That’s when my now partner came along. I regarded him as a close friend. We’d been close for 20 years, even though we hadn’t seen each other all the time because we lived in different counties. He came along and he was like, he’s lying to you because he was pulling me back in. This guy twisted my head to the point where he called this other woman crazy, saying she was a stalker. He tried to pull me back in, and my sons, my oldest sons, said, mum, he’s lying to you. It was really hard to get out. It seemed like an orbit that I was in. I’d get so far away from him mentally and emotionally, and then he’d pull me back in. I’d be questioning what was real and what wasn’t. Again, my now partner helped so much with that. Maybe a year later, my now partner opened his mouth and confessed that he’d always had deep feelings for me, which I’d always felt deeply for him. We’d known each other for 20 years, so it was like, suddenly everything in me lit up. It was like everything switched. All my ex’s power over me went, and suddenly I was full of love and light. So, we had the most beautiful love story. I had a fairytale level love story, like star crossed love that had been going on for 20 years. Neither of us ever spoke about it. And we’d been in different relationships. We went to each other’s weddings as friends. There was never anything lustful. It was always deep heart, caring. We share children now from past relationships. Can I Ever Trust My Husband Again?Discovering Another Betrayal Shelly: So I actually felt for the first time in my entire life that true love healed me. And that everything I’d been through before was leading to this, and it was like trials of fire to get to the other side. Or the island in the ocean of where stormy weather doesn’t go, but I’d found my safe space, I’d found my person. Anne: I’ll quote a country song from Rascal Flatts, “God bless the broken road that led me safe to you”. Like all these things, they were worth it. Shelly: Yes, exactly, Anne: I found you. Shelly: Fast forward seven years, I find out that he’s hiding an addiction. I don’t actually believe it’s an addiction. He made a choice and hid it from me. The betrayal trauma I feel now is actually so much worse than anything I experienced before. Because he was the light at the end of the tunnel for me. And this relationship made me believe in true love again. And then, all that came crashing down on my first D-Day. https://youtu.be/CVU-eI3SgeQ I had many D-Days after the first admission. I thought I had damage and trust issues. That was my narrative that I’d believed. And I actually said to him, I’m so sorry I have trouble trusting you, of course I didn’t know if I could trust my husband after that. Because I’m damaged from my previous traumatic experiences with my other relationships, and even how I entered the world. And he took that, and he allowed me to believe it was me. So I felt uncomfortable leaving him. in the house on his own. Realizing The Extent Of The Lies Shelly: I felt uncomfortable with him at work, but I put it all down to trust issues. I’m damaged, I haven’t dealt with the trauma in my past, so I’m ruining my perfect relationship with my trust issues. Which actually everything I asked him, even at the points where I asked him, turned out to be true, and it was completely vindicated. So what has actually happened? So I was carrying this, I’ve got trust issues, I’m damaged for so long. I believed those people around me who were just lying. I released myself from that, and I woke up within myself and realized I don’t have trust issues. I’ve just been around loads of people lying to me, and I can feel it. Anne: Yeah, you have a superpower. Shelly: Yeah, suddenly that thing I’d been carrying for so many years has suddenly lifted. I’m not damaged, I’ve just been around people that have treated me really badly. Anne: Was that a relief to you in some ways? Shelly: I felt relief, because like I said, I thought I damaged my perfect relationship. So it was like a double edged sword. Anne: At the time, you were being manipulated to think that you had problems, that this was your fault, but now that you know the truth and look back. And you’re like, oh no, he was gaslighting me. He really was lying to me. Can you tell me more about why you didn’t want him at home by himself? Or why you were worried about him at work? Shelly: It was just a feeling. It was literally just a feeling. There was no concrete evidence at all. I didn’t have anything. He was very good at keeping that separate, completely separate. The Pain Of Gaslighting Shelly: I just had this nagging feeling, an uneasiness of him being at home alone, an uneasiness of him when he is at work. Anne: What an amazing gift… Shelly: Yeah, Anne: …to you. I’m so grateful that you were strong and brave, and nothing was wrong with you. Even if you had “trust issues”. Because, like, why trust people when they’re not trustworthy? Shelly: Exactly. Anne: But in this particular case, your warning system is going off, and now you’re more confident in it because you found out the truth. But to know that he was weaponizing that against you, that’s why it hurts so badly. Shelly: Yeah, and like being in a relationship where he would lecture me on trusting him and how important trust was within the relationship, knowing that he was lying to me. Anne: That is so devastating. That is absolutely, it’s so bad. Sorry, I don’t know why anyone can think this form of abuse is not severe. Shelly: No, I know. It’s abuse on every level. I described it as a spiritual crime to him. It feels like a spiritual crime against another soul. It goes so deep for me and everybody experiencing this. I don’t understand how anyone can literally look themselves in the mirror knowing everything they know about themselves. And just carry on like it’s fine. Anne: And I can see why that was the most traumatic, because you trusted him the most, and he lied to you on such an intimate level. Can I Trust My Husband Again: He Withheld Information Shelly: Yeah, I asked him, just plainly, often, whether he was using explicit material. And always he’d be like, No, I only have eyes for you. I only have eyes for you. It wasn’t like it just never came up. I asked him a lot because of these feelings, my instincts. So it was, there’s no, oh, I thought you’d be fine with it. It wasn’t that at all. He knew where I was with that. And he still chose to hide that from me. It seems pretty clear at this point that I couldn’t trust my husband again. Anne: Which is abusive on so many levels, especially on a intimate level, coercion. When women say, I feel like I was emotionally raped. Basically, and people are like, what, and we’re not kidding. That’s exactly what happened. Because we would not have maybe made those choices or done the things that we did. Had we had the information that they were purposefully withholding from us. Shelly: Exactly. And the coercion has only really crystallized for me quite recently. Because this has been going on for a year now. Anne: So it’s been a year since he told you. Shelly: The D-Days, yeah, I always say D-Days because there was so much that we took a long time for full disclosure. And it just got worse and worse, the things being disclosed. Seeking The Truth Anne: Tell me more about that. Was he disclosing them to you because of therapy or how did the other disclosures happen? Shelly: No, after the first disclosure, we tried to make it light. And smoked and was like, sometimes. I pulled away and was like, you said you never did that. Instantly my heart was broken. Then he started to lie and minimize, he said. It was only three times in our relationship that I’ve done that. The thing is, once I switched on to the fact that he was lying to me and had lied to me, I could see it, and I could literally see him snaking around in front of me, lying to me. It was my warning system, and not letting it go and saying things like you said this, and that doesn’t add up. And okay, tell me this then, so what is it? There’s more I could feel it, I could feel it in my body every time he was lying to me. And I could see it. So there were a lot of lies after the first admission. Who went through for about four months, maybe a bit more serious, like minimizing half truths. Outright lies with him shifting around and tripping himself up and saying something he hadn’t said before. Or saying opposite things, saying two different things, two different sides of one story. And I said to him, you’re not even allowing me to heal, because you’re not telling me the whole truth. So after four or five months of this. And I was on it, I was on fire. I was just calling it the BS knife, because I was so sharply cutting through all these lies, my husband couldn’t be trusted again. He Gives A Full Disclosure Shelly: It culminated in going away and staying in a hotel room. And he was like, okay, I’m gonna tell you everything. He literally listed everything from childhood, told me stuff like when I wasn’t around. About him looking at other women just gave me what I felt was a full story. And it was incredibly traumatic. Anne: Were you interested in that, or was this like a way of grooming you, or can you talk a little bit about that? Shelly: I wouldn’t leave it until I got the full story. I needed to know everything. I needed to know who I was with. And it felt like pulling the truth out of him. It was my instincts that were telling me, you’re still not telling me the truth. There’s more and more. We had many horrific bombs dropped in my lap, with more and more truth, it got worse and worse. Anne: So how are you feeling now? Shelly: Like I said, it’s been a year. I did have moments where I was like, I don’t even know if I can love you anymore after this level of lies. I don’t think I can trust my husband again. But because of the work he’s done, a lot of meditation. He had a lightbulb moment when we listened to something, and it said the body doesn’t know the difference between what the mind is thinking. So, if you’re reliving your trauma all the time, he compartmentalized and kept this in a separate dark box. And then he was the good dad and he was a good partner. In all the other boxes, he was full of light and this wonderful man, but then he had this dark box where he kept all that stuff. What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Partner’s Realization & Efforts Shelly: So he literally gave that energy to another person. When he’s supposed to be committed and loyal to me. My husband was proving I couldn’t trust him anymore. Anne: On that note, he’s “such a good dad.” It was a feeling that you had, that something wasn’t quite right. But I want to talk about the other types of abuse that you experienced for a minute, the gaslighting and the emotional and psychological abuse . Do you think that even though it wasn’t overt, because I guess he wasn’t screaming in your face, he wasn’t, overtly calling you names that would have been obvious to you. But do you think that might have been what you were picking up on? Even though you didn’t know that you were picking up on it because you couldn’t see it and couldn’t tell. But do you think that was what you were picking up on? Shelly: Yeah, I do. I reckon my instincts were warning me, and self protection was kicking in. Anne: So you and your partner were together in a committed relationship for how long when he disclosed his use? Shelly: Seven years. So it’d been going on for seven years. Anne: Why did he disclose it? That’s a question I always ask, because they could be repentant at this point where they’re like, oh my word, I can’t live like this anymore. I’ve got to come clean. I’ve got to change. That’s a possibility. There’s also a possibility where they want to hurt you. I’m not saying that’s your situation, and I’m not trying to convince you of that. Why Disclose Now? Anne: In my case, when my ex-husband was in addiction recovery, and was doing so well. Then near the end, there was a sudden turn where he started telling me he was using. Before that, he was lying to me about it. When I look back, I’m like, I think he might have been having an emotional affair. There was something going on, and he wanted me to be the cause of the demise of our marriage. And so he was like, starting to be overtly aggressive and abusive. And then also just tell me he was using, because he knew that was a deal breaker for me. And so that’s one of the questions I want women to think about is why now, because that might help as we’re trying to heal or determine, what do I want to do? Is this safe for me? Is it not safe for me to ponder that question? If my husband lied to me the whole time, why is he telling me the truth now? Shelly: So I questioned him on that, and he said he felt it was getting to a point where it was out of control . He didn’t ever feel good about himself, because of what he was doing and living this double life. But he was scared to tell me the whole lot in one go. He didn’t have the strength to tell me everything in one go. I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me. It seemed like he was lightly slipping the truth in. And then he was like, now I’ve got all hell to deal with. So then he was trying to backtrack and minimize, and giving me non-truth and half truth. How could I ever trust him again after this? Can Ever Trust My Husband Again? I Think He Wanted To Change Shelly: So I don’t believe he was trying to hurt me with that. And I think that he, maybe subconsciously, wanted to change. I hope that’s the case. I definitely don’t believe he was using that to try and hurt me, because he’s not vindictive in that way, and he always wanted to look after me. He knew me in these past relationships, he was my friend, and he came along like this knight in shining armor. And just wanted to protect me. Then had this realization that he’d been exactly the same, and which he’s actually struggled with. We’ve spoken in great depth about the conditioning and objectification of humans. But obviously from this perspective, he was part of that, and he’s horrified with himself, and I believe that’s genuine. He was in groups of friends that were, it was just normal, it was just, this is what guys do, it’s just normal. That might be fine. If you’re in a relationship and you’re fine with that, then that’s fine. But this isn’t, and it wasn’t, and he chose that because he knew my stance on that. He knew he was lying to me, so this wasn’t normal and okay. And to consenting people and the coercion thing, realizing that I hadn’t been giving full consent. We’ve also spoken about that a lot, so he’s horrified with himself. Which I think is good. But, does that change whether or not I can trust him again? Anne: Yeah, that is good. Challenges In Counseling Anne: I wondered about therapy. In my opinion, the likelihood of it worsening is too risky. Shelly: I had the exact same feeling, actually. I wasn’t sure that any form of counseling would be helpful. Because of the tendency in society to normalize this stuff, and as long as you’re not physically cheating with someone else, then what’s the problem? Anne: You’re like, oh, the lying. But yeah. Shelly: Yeah, I was very apprehensive about any form of counseling. We went to the doctors, he wanted me to come with him. We sat with him. A female doctor, and he started talking and breaking down. He said he didn’t understand how he could do this to me. And struggled with his mental health and self perception. He was advised to take counseling. And they offered him a woman counselor on a screen, video calling, and I was like, I’m not comfortable with that. I’m not comfortable with that at all. We’re like, we’re talking about, you’re looking at women on the screen. I’m not comfortable with you having counseling with a woman on a screen. That’s like in this space, I don’t feel safe with that. So he requested a man, and luckily he did end up with a really. good counselor who he was able to express where he was with in a safe place without it being normalized. I felt I was on my way to trusting him again. And the lady doctor, when we went together, she said, do you want me to point you in the direction of addiction services? And he was like, I don’t actually think I have an addiction. It’s more of a choice that I decided to stop, where he didn’t go down that route. Validation & Healing Shelly: We both had counseling separately and thought about couples therapy. But again, my instincts were not fully on that either. So we haven’t, we’ve done a lot of work together just between us, in meditations, and in just hearing each other. A lot of it’s been me, speaking my heart and my pain. Sometimes, he’s struggled to deal with the anger, because he’s got a tendency to defend himself. So he’s working through that now. But his determination to make it right has given me hope and stuck me here. Actually, the full disclosure of everything he did, he could have easily not told me, is that it’s been the truth that’s kept us together. Anne: Can you talk about your journey to find Betrayal Trauma Recovery and want to share your story? Shelly: I was talking to him and I said to him, there’s so much help for you, that it literally feels like there’s no help for me. It was only recently that I’d found out that this sort of trauma has a name. And then I was starting to look into betrayal trauma , and then connecting all the dots from the rest of my life previously. It was actually him that was looking for ways to help me, and he discovered your podcast. And the first one he found was women saying, “This is the best way to heal from betrayal trauma.” And he was like, I want you to listen to this. And that was how I found you. I wanted to share my story, because I think that is another step forward in healing in our journey. Putting this out because I’ve kept it very close to my heart and it’s been hard. What If I Can Never Trust My Husband Again: Finding Support & Community Anne: As part of your journey to healing, to find a community with women who have been through this? Who all worry about if they can trust their husband again. Shelly: And feeling so validated in a world that normalizes this stuff and it’s everywhere. Feeling so validated for feeling so strongly about this and feeling so heartbroken about this. That validation has given me so much. There are other women wondering if they can trust their husbands . Anne: Let’s talk about that validation for a minute. Can you talk about the difference in knowing that women are horrified and traumatized? And they’re experiencing emotional and psychological abuse on these intense levels. And that almost all society doesn’t recognize this type of trauma. What’s your feeling now that you realize you’ve been completely normal and that there are so many other women who feel the way you do? Shelly: I feel like there’s an army of women out there that I’m part of. Before, I felt isolated and we would talk to friends. It would be like, I didn’t speak about this, about my personal experience with friends, but just in conversation. Oh yeah, as long as they’re not cheating and come back to you at the end of the night. It’s the validation that this actually affects people much more than is spoken about. Because people don’t talk about it. It’s giving it a voice. Anne: And that’s why I do this podcast to give women like you the opportunity to share your story, share how you feel, share how this affected you. Belief It’s Possible To Trust My Husband Again Shelly: Yeah, that is a powerful thing. That’s a powerful thing, because before I knew of my emotions, I felt like I was on my own in that. I wasn’t, there are many others who also wonder what if they can trust him again. Anne: I am so grateful that you’re a member of our community and supporting me in my healing process. I am honored and have been honored through the years to hear all these stories. Women who share these stories are in a vulnerable place, and it’s such an honor to like, sit with you. I know I was in the same spot. Maybe a different spot, because my husband’s character, was deceptive. I’ve been thinking about that a lot lately, about how I believe people can change. And, that makes this job hard, right? Because how do we know if someone is or isn’t when they’ve lied to you all these years, right? How can you tell if you can trust him? So that place where you are right now in your healing process is a vulnerable spot, but it is okay to be there. And there’s no way to get out of it other than to go through it, because you want to make the right decision for you and your family. And we get that. Shelly: Yeah, and you have to feel every layer of grief to release yourself from it. And it’s a hard thing to face, because it’s not anything that anyone would choose to feel. But that, the only way out is to go in, and that’s the process I’m in. And it feels like I’ve been doing it forever now. Reflections On Change & Trust Anne: Hopefully not forever, right? It’s been so interesting. My process, I feel so good now. But there were, I don’t know, 14 years where I felt like this is going to be forever. So I totally understand. I wondered if I could trust him again, and found out I couldn’t. Shelley, if you’re willing to come back and share how you’re doing in six months to a year. I would love to have you come back on and share what’s going on, what you’ve learned through the process. So if you’re willing to do that, I would love to talk to you again. Shelly: Yeah, definitely up for that, yeah. Anne: Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your story, and keep in touch. Shelly: Yeah, I will do, thank you.…

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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Betrayal Trauma In Marriage, When It’s Not Getting Better – Nikki’s Story 25:21

29 days ago25:21

25:21

Victims of betrayal trauma in marriage need a safe place to share their stories, ask questions, and receive support. Too many women spend months, years, even decades isolated in their trauma. Or get help from therapists who don’t understand this type of emotional and psychological abuse. To discover if the betrayal trauma you’ve experienced includes emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz . When His Years of Betrayal In Marriage Harms You For years, Nikki’s husband betrayed her with his infidelity and consistent emotional abuse. Like many abusers, Nikki’s husband conditioned her to feel ashamed for needing help with betrayal trauma in marriage. An integral part of building a foundation of safety and peace is education about what betrayal trauma in marriage really means. Attending a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session is essential, because victims can ask questions and get truthful and healthy answers. Victims can also process their betrayal without judgment, and learn to protect themselves from harm. Transcript: Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: Today we have a member of our community, we’re going to call her Nikki. She’s from Australia. Welcome Nikki. So, tell me your story. Did you recognize your husband’s abusive behaviors at first? Nikki: Not at all. Goodness me, no. I was 15, just had my 16th birthday when I met my husband. I was in the UK. And we’ve been together ever since. I was six months pregnant with our first child. And he bought this little black bag home. And I hadn’t seen it before. We weren’t living together at the time. And he brought it back into my little flat, and being curious, opened it, and there was all this horrible material in there. And said to him, this is not what I want as part of my life. I knew this wasn’t what I wanted, and he said, “Oh, I’ll get rid of it, I’ll get rid of it.” And there were other bits in this bag, which just baffled me. I was just horrified, and the next day I went into labor because I was just that traumatized, I guess. So from that point, it kind of never stopped. I would continually find magazines under the couch. I mean, we tried getting help before we’d gone to several pastors who were basically just more about the codependent model. But I’d done nothing except to protect myself from betrayal trauma in my marrriage. Anne: And try to protect your marriage, right? Nikki: Yeah, and I didn’t want our children to spend time with me and then time with him, because he’d gone down the rabbit hole. I didn’t want there to be a point where he was left with them alone. Life in Australia, Lack of Support & Self-Education Anne: Where do you live in Australia? Nikki: I live in Melbourne, Victoria, but I’m from Tasmania. Anne: Okay, how do you feel like the support is there? Nikki: None, I have struggled to find anybody in this field that can help. So no, I never recognized the abuse, not until I started educating myself. And then it was when I came across the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Facebook page that I knew that what he was doing was abuse, and I was experiencing betrayal trauma in my marriage. Anne: Before you found BTR, when you were trying to get help, what types of things did you do to try and like, improve? Nikki: Yep, I thought if I looked better, if I tried harder, if I loved him more, you know, I learned the love languages. I was always trying to improve myself, and even going to counseling to try and improve something. Yeah, I took it on board, but I think that’s much more to do with how I was raised to be a better wife. And then he wouldn’t do this thing. Anne: So you knew about the watching stuff online. Did you recognize the other types of abusive behaviors, like lying, manipulation, and gaslighting as betrayal trauma in marriage? Could you identify those back in the day? Or did you not realize all that was going on too? Nikki: I knew there was lying and manipulation. Because that kind of goes hand in hand with sneaky behavior, doesn’t it? Yeah, it wasn’t until the internet came about and you could Google this kind of stuff that I became aware of it. It wasn’t until much later in our marriage. Realizing Common Advice Doesn’t Work With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: So when did you realize that common marriage advice, look good, love, serve, forgive, make sure dinner’s on the table, make sure the house is clean, you know, that sort of thing? And when did you realize that common marriage advice was not working and that the betrayal trauma in your marriage was not improving? Nikki: Probably about 20 years ago. Anne: And how long have you been married? Nikki: We’ve been married about 27 years. Anne: Okay, so seven years in, you realize, wait a minute, this isn’t working. What helped you realize that? Nikki: I think it was shortly after we’d had intercourse, and I walked in and found him looking at stuff. I actually thought he deliberately tried to hurt me. Anne: And when you thought that, he deliberately attempts to hurt me, you also didn’t think abuse way back then. Nikki: No, not at all. It’s only the abuse part has been, I think, the last six years that I’ve seen his actions as being abusive. Anne: Why do you think it takes so long for victims of emotional and psychological abuse and this type of coercion to understand the reality of their situation. Nikki: Trauma, I think our brain sits in trauma because the person you most trust, the person you think will never hurt you, is doing it. And I think it’s protection. I mean, I can’t speak for everyone, I can only speak for me. Because whatever your circumstance is, there’s a part of you that needs to protect your own mind and yourself. Sometimes it’s about time. Your brain or your body is just not ready to realize that this is what it is. Crisis Point & Finding Betrayal Trauma Recovery Anne: There’s also this education factor. You don’t have an abuse class in high school. Along with math and English, right? So many people think they understand abuse because they’ve seen a TV show where a guy beats up his wife, and they’re like, that’s what abuse is. And they don’t recognize all the different covert ways in a marriage that you can be abused and end up with betrayal trauma. Nikki: I think it’s the gaslighting as well. Because it’s been so long in my marriage. It’s like, oh, no, I must have misunderstood what he said. Oh, no, he’s right. I’ve got that wrong. Oh, okay. I thought you meant this, but you actually meant this way. Oh, all right. So you’re second guessing yourself all the time. Anne: What were you looking for online when you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery on Facebook? Nikki: I hit a crisis point. The crisis point brought me to the fact that I was trying to seek some kind of support basically anywhere, because here in Australia it’s like, oh you’ll be right mate. So whoever you spoke to thought you were being prissy. It just wasn’t cutting it. I just felt so deeply ashamed and hurt that I needed some kind of support and wasn’t getting it in the real world. So when I came across the group, it changed the way I view my whole life. Anne: So you started attending the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group sessions , can you tell us about your experience? Knowledge Is Power With Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Nikki: Knowing that I’m not alone. Because I’ve always taught our children that knowledge is power. Once you have power, you can change the way you operate, change the way you do things. So for me, that’s been the greatest thing, being informed. And then being able to research that and having the facts behind it. Which has been a great thing. Anne: Being educated about betrayal trauma in marriage brings so much confidence. Because the gaslighting, you’re like, Is this me? Is this real? What’s going on? And if you don’t have words for it, you can never fully define it to someone else. And so, they’ll give you typical things, like, Well, you just must be stressed. Or maybe, don’t worry, it’ll get better. Things like that. Because you’re not able to say what’s happening with betrayal trauma in marriage. So getting educated, you can actually talk about it. Having words to describe it immediately helps people understand what’s happening. It also helps victims understand what is going on. Because there’s so much confusion. Nikki: Yeah, for me, what I’m experiencing now, because I’ve been in this for a long time. And there’s been a lot of game playing. on his behalf, and I’ve just realized my body is actually physically, it’s started coming out. I’ve developed really bad tinnitus, which is a physical representation of what’s going on in the outside world. Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Has An Impact on Physical & Mental Health Nikki: And also, I find my brain is not working the same. As I’ve got older. And I think that’s because of the trauma that’s gone on throughout our whole marriage and childhood. My brain’s got to the point where it’s like, I don’t want to work anymore. I don’t want to hold this memory, or it just phases out or disassociates, which I know is part of the trauma. But it’s frustrating. Anne: I can imagine. How old are you now? Nikki: I’m 47. We have five children. They’re all adults now. Thank you, God, they survived. They’re pretty good people, but we’ve got four boys, one girl. And my children growing up, they’d ask him a question, and he wouldn’t respond. They’d always be, Oh, we’re going to go to the sensible parent. Meaning that we’re gonna go see mum. Anne: He wouldn’t respond because he was distracted or he just couldn’t focus? Nikki: I don’t know if he didn’t know the answer. So he didn’t want to look silly, so he’d muck about. Because I think his use of online material stunted his intellectual growth. He must have been about 14, I think. And I always developed critical thinking in our children. You know, I told them to think about the wheres, whys, and what fors of any situation. And because he didn’t develop that skill, the children kind of overtook him in their thinking and emotional development. He just really frustrated them. Anne: That makes sense. In terms of Betrayal Trauma Recovery , the education and support you’ve received helped you make different choices about how you interact with him. Taking My Power Back With Betrayal Trauma Recovery Nikki: I no longer buy into his BS. Like, if I ask him a question and I know he’s done something, I know that whatever comes out of his mouth will be a lie. I state my case, I drop it, I walk away, and I allow him time to be truthful, and no longer check up on him, because I found that, oh my goodness me, it was driving me nuts. I felt like I was chasing my whole life, and I was trying to catch him out playing detective, and it just doesn’t work. It just, for me anyway, and I understand there is some control, especially early on when you’re still buying into the gaslighting. But now I’m at a point where it’s like, you know what, you do you. I’ve gone out and I’m back in to work full time. I’m just living my life. to the best of my ability. And the group, like the conversations in the group, and the information in the group, helped me see that. And so yeah, I’m grateful for that, because it’s given me my life back, and enabled me to take my power back as a woman, if that makes sense. https://youtu.be/zvoACFsCOTE Anne: It makes sense. So we talk about boundaries to help yourself heal from betrayal trauma in your marriage a lot at Betrayal Trauma Recovery and in the BTR group . Many people who don’t listen to the podcast, I would say, or misunderstand what we do, accuse me of being pro divorce or a man hater or something like that. Or that Betrayal Trauma Recovery is just a place where if you go there, you’re going to end up bitter and angry. Boundaries & Misconceptions With Betrayal Trauma In Relationships Anne: You are still married. Would you speak to that a little bit and talk about how do you see Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Like, I see us as a safety first organization, right? Your safety is the most important thing, and you can figure out what that looks like in your own life. But could you talk to that point? Nikki: I’ve never seen you say get a divorce or be a man hater. You lay the facts out as they are. Whatever a woman does with that is their choice, their option. Yeah, what you promote though is, are you safe? Are you okay? Anne: We have to walk this fine line, because when we talk about abuse, many people want to say, well, you should only encourage them to leave, like immediately. Then there’s the addiction recovery people. They’re like, no, you should be nice and understanding. Don’t shame them, don’t make any decisions. And know they’re sick. And how can you help them? So we’re not on that side for sure, but I’m right in this section where I want to give people correct information and say, your safety is the most important thing. And I am not living in your shoes. I’m not living in your home. I don’t know all your specific circumstances. So I trust every woman, every victim, to make. The best decisions about her particular situation. So I think that’s one thing that I’m wondering is, do you feel supported in your circumstances and where you are right now in the Betrayal Trauma Recovery group? Do you feel accepted for the decisions you’re making? Complexities Of Abuse Will Cause Confusion Nikki: Yeah, people will always speak from their own inner knowledge or feelings, I think. So whatever you put out on a group. Expect that response from that aspect. You take what you can and leave what you don’t need. Like you said, you’re the only one who knows what’s happening within the relationship. So yeah, I feel supported because I take what I need from it, because I am the only one that knows what’s happening and why I stay within my marriage. We’ve got a lot of financial obligations together. You know, we still have grandchildren that would visit, Grandad, and I’d much prefer to be around. So I know why I stay within my marriage. And I think it’s up to every individual person to make that decision. Anne: People who haven’t been through it, or people who have, I mean, it’s just a lot more complex than I think anybody can even wrap their head around. It’s such a complex situation and it unfolds over time. So not everything can be decided in a split second. Nikki: Everything feels split second when you’re in it though, doesn’t it? Anne: It does. And it feels like you have to, it feels like you have to decide or know everything. There’s this overwhelming desire to resolve things as quickly as possible, whatever resolution means or whatever fixing it means, but it’s impossible to resolve or fix quickly, right? This is a very, very long-term complex problem. Nikki: You know, we’ve found a therapist, we’ve thrown all the money we can at him. Anne: So you’re still with a man who’s continuing to exhibit emotionally abusive behaviors. Future Hopes To Make The Best Of My Life Anne: How do you feel right now? Nikki: Oh boy, okay, so we’ve just had an episode, so everything’s a little bit raw for me just now. Because he’s what I think of as a surface person. He wants everything to look great on the outside, that everything’s going well, and that he’s doing underhanded things, and he gets off knowing that he’s getting away with it. So when he becomes overly nice, I then become on guard, and I wait for the next influx of abuse, emotional abuse. He doesn’t yell, he doesn’t do any of that, he just becomes very quiet. We had, we’ll say, six months of nice. And so I was waiting for it. So we just discovered, and so we’re just going through that now, and he hasn’t gone back to see his therapist. So he’s just waiting to go back to see her, but it’s difficult, because I don’t know what she’s saying to him, or whether he’s telling her partial truths. Have I reached some kind of peace within myself? There is peace around our marriage and our life? No, there isn’t peace. I’m making do with what I’ve got because of circumstance. And that’s awful to say, because it feels like a half life. Anne: Do you feel like you’re progressing toward something? Even though current circumstances are what they are? Do you hope for the future? Nikki: I’ve got a lot of hope for my future, because I’ll make the best of my life no matter what. For our marriage and for us together, we will have to make a step either away, and I don’t think it’s going to be too long down the road. There will be a conversation with my grown children. There Will Always Be Complexity In A Marriage With Betrayal Trauma Nikki: They know about his addiction. I just don’t think they realize how far he’s gone within that addiction. Yep, I’ve got peace in me, but within our marriage, not sure. We’ve got a few big decisions ahead of us, which will affect many outcomes for myself, my daughter, and him. Anne: Well, that is what is so awesome. If I can praise Betrayal Trauma Recovery about BTR, is that we get it. We get it. We get how complex it is, we get that it takes a long time, sometimes. You know what the right thing is or what the thing is you want to do, not necessarily the right thing, but it’s not the right time or other factors, right? There are so many complexities. And having someone who understands and be supportive is helpful. Should we call it that with a long-term trial like this? What should we call it? A long-term problem. What would you tell other women? Let’s say what you went through in your early 30s, so if someone’s listening. And that’s where they’re at. Let’s say they’ve just discovered pornography for the first time. Nikki: Oh my goodness. I’m sorry this is your journey. Get help. Get immediate help. Find a good support network. Find somebody you trust. That you can tell absolutely anything to. And will not judge. And will just be there for you. Find that one person. And walk beside them, and let them walk beside you. Because that’s the best thing you can do for you, to heal you. And know that it’s not your fault. Know that he made choices that have affected both of your lives. It’s just not your fault, though. Knowing About Abusive Marriages Helps With Betrayal Trauma Nikki: And don’t try and fix him. Anne: Oh, we’ve all done that. Nikki: Yep, if we just do this, if I look a bit prettier if I wear this lingerie. If I do that risky behavior that he would like me to do, that’ll make him happy, and he won’t do it anymore. Anne: When women go down that road, they end up doing it more. Or he wants it more, right? There’s no end to it. Nikki: Oh, he wants a bit more freaky. The indulging of their immature behaviors, their man child silliness. And I think that’s something we don’t realize, isn’t it? Is it that they get themselves stuck emotionally at the age they start using? So what you’re actually doing is complying with a teenager, a child. And so, and what happens when a child doesn’t get what it wants? It tantrums. And unfortunately, a man tantrum has a bigger impact, because they’re disposable, to play with like income or whatever it is, you know, that’s protecting the family. Anne: Yeah, well, and also their tantrums are way more sophisticated, right? They might not scream, yell and punch the wall, although some of them do that. But their tantrum might look nice and kind when behind your back they’re spending $10,000 of their retirement. Nikki: Yeah, or they’ve got a hidden phone, so they’re happy to show you the phone they’ve got. And all the while feeling proud of themselves that they’ve got a hidden phone, and that’s what gets them off. Anne: Exactly. When You Need Love, Attend Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Anne: Well, thank you so much for sharing your story and spending time with us today. Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group is that amazing place where you can be yourself and understood. Is there anything else that you would like to share about the group or about BTR that you have found helpful? Nikki: For me, in the early stages and now as sort of, I won’t say a veteran, but I’ve been there for a while. This is the place you go to when you need to feel heard, you need to feel safe, you need to reach out. You know, or you just need somebody to say, Hey, I’m here for you. Or you need to feel loved. Because this group, for me anyway, has provided that. Get in contact. You know, try and join the group, because it’s just, if you want to feel loved, this is where it’s at. Anne: That’s good to hear. Betrayal Trauma Recovery is love. They can make choices due to that love and confidence to get them to safety. That’s the whole goal. Nikki: To know you’re not alone and that the crazy making that happens, sometimes this group, has helped me unravel that craziness. This is going on, and in your head, because they’ve gaslighted you so much, you’re forever double guessing your own mind, to notice that you go in there and somebody says, yep, that’s normal. My husband does that. It’s like, it’s what they do, it’s one of their little tactics, and you just come away thinking, Oh, okay. And you can take a big sigh of relief to think, Oh, I’m not that crazy after all. There is Hope After Betrayal Trauma In Marriage Anne: Yeah, no, you are not. You are beautiful, amazing, competent woman. It’s a cool place to be, right? It’s a cool club to be in. With all these awesome women. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to share your story today, and we’ll see you in Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group. Nikki: Thank you, Anne.…

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help? with Nicole Bedera 44:11

5 weeks ago44:11

44:11

Many victims of emotional, psychological, and sexual abuse say they experienced even more trauma when they tried to get help. Where can someone who is being abused get help? Here’s what you need to know. Author Nicole Bedera talks about what typically happens when abuse victims try to get help. If you need live support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session . If you’re wondering if you’re experiencing one of the 19 types of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz . Transcript: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help? Anne: I have Dr. Nicole Badera on today’s episode. She’s a sociologist and author of the book, On the Wrong Side , how universities protect perpetrators and betray survivors of sexual violence. Her research focuses broadly on how our social structures contribute to survivors trauma and make this kind violence more likely to occur in the future. Nicole puts her work into practice as an affiliated educator at the Center for Institutional Courage. Welcome, Nicole. Nicole: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. Anne: I am so grateful to have you on. You do fascinating work. Especially because you focus on what happens after. And that is something that listeners to this podcast are all dealing with. Where can someone who is being abused get help? They’ve found they have been a victim of coercion. Husbands don’t tell my listeners all the information they need most of the time. Their husband actually purposefully kept it from them. For example, they didn’t know that their husband solicited prostitutes, or was having an affair. Or something outside their boundaries, which is extremely traumatic. And people don’t view this as an actual act of emotional and psychological abuse. They don’t see it as coercion. Nicole: I did my research a little differently than other people in the past. Many people focus on going to the police or workplace. I focus on what happens for students still in school. Victims report most of the time to a Title IX office. You might have heard about it in the news. It’s been everywhere over the past 10 years. New has quieted down quite a bit recently. And a Title IX office is a little different from those other places. We can get into that if you’re curious. Inside The Title IX Office Nicole: In terms of what I did, I spent a year inside one of those Title IX offices interviewing the victims, the perpetrators, and school administrators who had the most control over their cases. I found participants trying to come forward after abuse for help in that setting that way. All knew something was wrong. They might not know how to label it, or how to label it in a way that the system would recognize. That’s something survivors deal with a lot. Women have been especially made to feel a lot of this stuff is just normal. There’s this idea that this is exactly what you should expect when you go to college, or in a marriage. And so there were some who weren’t sure what was going on. But they knew that something had affected usually their education, or they felt unsafe and unsettled. They were looking for help after abuse? And they ended up in my study. They went to their school for help for abuse either through the victim advocacy office, which on a college campus can help survivors with whatever they need. But many things that have nothing to do with the perpetrator. Including things like they need an extension on an assignment, or there’s a specific class they want to take, but their perpetrator wants to take it. They’re trying to figure out when they can take it in the semester that they won’t be in the same classroom, things like that. Or they went through the Title IX office to try to report what happened to them, to seek some kind of safety or justice. So that’s who we’re talking about in the particular book. Challenges In Reporting Nicole: But many themes are not that different from all the other places that maybe you’ve tried to report or consider going to for help. Anne: When a woman has a situation where she needs help from abuse, but she doesn’t quite know where to go. It’s so heartbreaking for me, as I see this with wives trying to figure it out. We usually do couple therapy, or maybe like addiction recovery or something along those lines. Trying to figure out how to start to feel safe again in my marriage? When you’re talking about on a college campus, they’re thinking how to feel safe again on campus. Why do you think this idea of safety and how to feel safe again is so hard for pretty much everybody to understand? For institutions or organizations, they’re having a hard time figuring this out. What do you mean she feels unsafe? What should we do about it? Nicole: There are a few issues that we encounter when victims are trying to decide where to report. One of them is that many systems that we think will help won’t help. Administrators tell students to go to the Title IX office for help. If they experience violence, harassment, or any kind of gender discrimination. But that’s not what the Title IX office is concerned with. Their primary concern is what do we do with this perpetrator? Sometimes doing something about the perpetrator would help, if the school would. Which they often hesitate to do. But a lot of the time, that’s not meeting a survivor’s need in a real way. Classroom Trauma: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help? Nicole: And that’s the same issue that comes up if you go to the police, or to a couples therapist. I think many people who’ve tried for help at any of these institutions have experienced coming in for something tangible for yourself, right? So an example I gave earlier is you are, let’s say you’re a victim in a university setting, and you show up on the first day of class. And you see your perpetrator is in class with you. And that the class will discuss violence as a topic. So this just feels completely impossible for you to be able to be safe in this environment because it’s going to be reminding you of your trauma. You might have to watch your perpetrator interact. It’s going to be just a place where your body and mind are responding to the traumatic experiences you’ve already had. Anne: And the trauma you continue to experience, because the likelihood of him gaslighting you, continuing to emotionally and psychologically abuse you through this whole thing is like off the charts. Nicole: It’s unlikely that if you’re in that class with your perpetrator, you and your perpetrator will share the same public narrative about why you can’t sit next to him in class, right? So you’re right. Often this is a site of continued violence, where the perpetrator might disparage the victim. Might go and tell lies about what happened in their past to avoid accountability. You’re right. This is a place where more violence can take place. And so a victim in that scenario reasonably is just thinking, I just want this guy out of my class, right? Where can someone who is being abused get help? Systemic Issues In Universities Nicole: I just want this person out of my class. I want to take the class I want to take and complete my degree on time. Why is this affecting me in this scenario? I don’t want to be unsafe. Most people say that’s a reasonable set of requests. To say, you’ve already experienced a assault. That’s enough of a burden on its own. You shouldn’t have to sacrifice your education too. In our current university system, there is no way to get that outcome. And so instead, when a victim says, “This is what I need.” The entire system is focused on, but what would this mean for the perpetrator? Is it fair to him? Is this going to be too much for him? And is violence even involved? This is one of the stories I start the book with, because it’s so common. Even if the system works as it claims, it can’t fix it. There is no version of a assault response in our society that can intervene on a perpetrator’s violence in two weeks. We don’t have a version of that right now. Victims experience so much harm by coming forward. Because at minimum, they tell you to wait. And at maximum, you will experience more trauma. They force you back into communication, into being in the same room with your perpetrator. Potentially violence could escalate. There could be retaliation. And our system doesn’t think about how to help abuse victims get help with that, because our systems primarily think about violence as something about the perpetrator. We have to decide what to do with the perpetrator. Protective Orders & Legal Challenges Nicole: They treat the victim as evidence, not as a person through these systems. Anne: I help all sorts of women in all sorts of scenarios, right? But one that I’m thinking of right now is a woman with a protective order. And he continues to violate the protective order, and she keeps calling it in. Then they have to have a hearing about it. And the hearing isn’t for like three months. So he has like 27 protective order violations. But the prosecutor is like, Hmm, okay, should we like put them all together? I don’t want to prosecute him 27 times. What will we do in the meantime? There’s no protection for her, as they’re trying to set the date for the hearing, and for a victim that in and of itself is triggering. I’m sure you’ll hear him talk about the date of the court hearing. Rather than hear somebody say, I care about you. We’re going to do something so that he can’t come around you anymore. That’s what she needs to hear. But for some reason, that’s like beyond their comprehension. Nicole: A metaphor at the end of the book when I’m talking about creating a better system, about how our current system looks at a victim. And if we think of trauma as something physical. If we make a version where it’s not something that can’t be seen, but something we could see. The example I like to use is putting your hand on a hot stove. https://youtube.com/shorts/f42gMRWCYd8 Metaphor Of The Hot Stove: Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help? Nicole: Right now, our systems just tell the victim, pretend it’s not burning you. If it is burning you and you can’t handle it, there must be something wrong with you. Take your hand off the stove. Maybe you should leave the kitchen while we figure out what we want to do about this stove that’s burning people, right? And a better system would say, well, let’s just turn off the stove. Okay, let’s turn off the stove. Let’s do it in a way, you know, we’re not going to break the stove. We need to turn it off, and we will take a minute to figure out what to do next. But we won’t tell the person who’s burned to keep burning while we decide what to do. Anne: You nailed it. But this happens in marriages all the time, because number one, a couple’s therapist in general doesn’t identify the psychological and emotional abuse . She’s going for help, and doesn’t know she’s being abused. No one identifies the abuse. And the professional she’s going to for help, clergy or any number of people because they don’t identify the stove is on. To use your metaphor. They say, something’s wrong with you. You experience the burn for no reason. Nicole: Right, or let’s try to evenly manage this. There’s this real temptation in many of these systems to say, well, why don’t both people come to the table and offer something? So that would be a can in the same metaphor to say, well, why don’t we have the stove turned down the heat? a little bit? And why don’t we have the person with their hand on the stove stop complaining? Power Inequities & Abuse Nicole: And that doesn’t make sense, it doesn’t make sense. One of the things I talk about in the book is how we have gotten comfortable asking for more sacrifices from victims. As long as it’s in the name of giving an advantage to their perpetrator. But we know that abuse occurs when there is a power inequity. And so if that’s the reason we’re saying both people have to do something or the victim can’t get what they need. Because we want to give a benefit to the perpetrator. That will always deepen that inequity. It’s always going to deepen that power disparity, and that can make the abuse worse. Anne: My eye is twitching. The other thing I think is interesting when it comes to either reporting or not reporting. Is that for me and many women who have been through it. Reporting wasn’t the issue. We just wanted to feel safe. So I didn’t necessarily want my ex husband to go to jail. I just wanted him to leave me alone. So in my personal case, I had a protective order. He had a guilty plea for domestic violence, and the criminal court said, do not talk to him, you have a protective order. But the civil court ordered me to talk to him because we share children. My ex abused me for eight years post divorce . I have a protective order against him. I do not want to talk to him. But the civil court is forcing me to talk to him, like where can I get help? Because of my kids. I didn’t report his abuse to have him put in jail. I needed medical treatment, and the doctor reported it. Victims Just Want To Be Safe Anne: I think that’s the thing that people have a hard time with, especially with custody cases. The judge is like, well, I can’t take away custody, because then I’d call him an abuser . And then he’d go to prison. Victims want to be safe. The safe parent, the mother, isn’t trying to have her ex thrown in jail in many of these civil cases especially with kids. She’s just trying to get help to ensure that her kids are safe and they don’t have to go with an abuser. And the same thing with the college thing, right? You’re just asking that he doesn’t go to this class or maybe he transfers schools or something. I don’t know. Maybe you can talk about options. But for some reason, the justice system sees this as like, we’ve got to give him due process before we, and then they equate it to prison. Nicole: That’s exactly right. And I want to say that this is a new problem. And the Title IX debate is actually the center of why this is happening throughout society. So, a little history around campus violence and campus sexual violence organizing. Legislatures passed a law in 1972. That law said discrimination is illegal on college campuses. That receive federal funding. And that’s all schools, to be clear. Even Harvard accepts a lot of funds from the federal government to keep their doors open. They would have a hard time keeping their doors open without those federal funds. The law itself is a single sentence. The law about what’s included is unclear. There were a series of court cases to try to figure that out. Where Can Someone Who Is Being Abused Get Help? Title IX History & Legal Context Nicole: One of them was in 1980, Alexander vs. Yale, if you’re feeling industrious and want to look it up. And that was the first court case that said violence should be illegal on a college campus. That it should be something that schools should do something about. They should have their own internal proceedings to manage it. The focus here wasn’t on sending people to jail. That’s what you should call the police for, if that’s what you wanted. It is specifically for scenarios where perpetrators impacted victims’ education by their assaults. Or intimate partner violence, or stalking, or whatever they were experiencing. The Department of Education argued that schools need to do something. To ensure that violence doesn’t interfere with the quality of education you receive from the school. Including things like if there’s a known perpetrator on campus, let’s say he’s a professor. Let’s say he’s withholding good grades unless students provide favors. Which is what that 1980 court case was about. Title IX requires removal of the perpetrator from campus. Because obviously no woman can get a fair education from that person. And so the focus is on restoring those educational rights. And the issue was that schools just didn’t do it. Every few years, the Department of Education would remind schools that they had to do something about harassment and violence, and they just didn’t do it. And for the most part, it didn’t capture much attention. Until the Obama administration. Anne: Was part of their justification for not doing their job, well, if it was bad enough, she’d call the police? Misconceptions About Campus Violence Nicole: People said this in the past. Or they said this isn’t a problem on our campus. There was a similar thing, a study. It was just a survey by Inside Higher Ed in 2015. They asked university presidents at the time, do you think campus violence is a problem on your campus? And the vast, vast, vast majority said, “No, that’s a problem at other schools. We don’t have to worry about it.” Which isn’t true. By the way, we have yet to find a university that doesn’t have violence as a problem. And so, yes, that’s part of how they justified it. I’d just go somewhere else. We don’t want to handle this. This is a criminal act, not a civil act. But that’s not what the law said. And so, the Obama administration sent out another one of these reminder letters, and for whatever reason, it became hotly politicized. And in that moment, a group of Harvard professors, law professors, wrote an essay. It said the Title IX approach the Obama administration required wasn’t right. Because it didn’t allow the same kind of due process protections that the criminal justice system does. They said exactly what you’re saying. Many of these Harvard Law professors don’t specialize in gender based violence, or even in criminal or civil law. I mean, I guess that’s all the law. They were people who specialized in any type of law. Some of them probably did things like corporate law, who had absolutely no knowledge on this topic whatsoever. Due Process Debate Nicole: And the average lawyer gets very little training during law school about violence or harassment, especially in civil settings. So they were just wrong. They were just flat out wrong. But this argument captured the national attention. It went viral. And since then, we have started to see other judges and lawyers think there are due process protections on college campuses that never existed before. If you faced student disciplinary proceedings on a college campus before. You only had the right to know your accusations. And what the violation would be, and have some chance to respond. But there were no rules about how you would do that. So some schools did it in writing, some did it a hearing, some would, you know, they weren’t doing much of anything. They would just give you a chance, and many people would say, you know what, I actually was plagiarizing, I don’t even need to participate in this, right? And so, this new idea that anything involving violence must be held to a criminal standard of due process is only a few years old. It’s not too late to reverse it. And we should, because the stakes are so different. In the book, I call it Accumulated Fantasies of Disaster. Where when a victim says exactly like you’re describing. I need one thing. And sometimes on college campuses, that is safety for their kids. Married people living in student housing on college campuses with children live in dorms, but family dorms. And that’s often what they’re looking for. I am trying to escape an abusive marriage where can I get help? Where Can Abuse Victims Get Help For Their Kids Nicole: My partner is sick, still on campus, and we’re still living in the same dorm. There another unit I can move into with my kids as I go through divorce proceedings, as I go through a custody battle, saying exactly what you are. Well, if we do that, it could lead to all these other issues for the perpetrator down the line. And some stories I heard during my time in the field were unreasonable. I start the book with one of those stories. A guest speaker harassed a woman on campus. The guest speaker owns a company and is the CEO. He had been stalking and harassing her ever since he met her. He had no other tie to the campus community. So from a legal perspective, the university had no obligation to him. They don’t have to let him come back and speak again. They don’t even have to let him come on campus if they don’t want to, because he’s not a student. He’s not a professor. He has no rights. to this space. But instead, the Title IX investigators wrapped themselves in knots to think of all these horrible things that could happen to him if they took into account the victim’s wishes. Which was just, please don’t invite him back to be guest speaker again. I don’t want this to happen to anybody else. And they said things like he could get a bad reputation, he could lose his job, he could be incarcerated. And it’s not true, because a lot of these proceedings are private. Perpetrators’ Perspective Nicole: And so any of the files that come from them, you can’t just hand them to the police, that’s illegal. That’s not how it works. People have privacy rights. Educational documents, in particular, are really private. But that’s what they’re thinking. They say, if you come forward, every bad thing will happen to this person. We’re talking about a CEO. Who’s going to fire him? Himself? It doesn’t make sense. We should prioritize helping the abuse victim getting help. Anne: Also, heaven forbid, a bad thing happen to a rapist. Nicole: I completely agree. I interviewed the perpetrators. That’s actually one of the strengths of my book. I think we can all see from examples in pop culture. You know, presidential races, whatever it might be. Men accused of assault tend not to have bad things happen to them. If anything, I argue they tend to get benefits. The Johnny Depp trial is a great example. He made an entire comeback after struggling to find work in Hollywood. Because of his own behavior on set. Now all of a sudden, he gets this second chance. He’s a known perpetrator of domestic violence. He never refuted that, by the way, never refuted that he had physically harmed Amber Heard. He never said that. And he simply argued she deserved it. Anne: Which is insane. Nicole: Right, it’s wild. We should see through it, but we don’t, because we come to a place of victim blaming first. Results Of Perpetrator Interviews Nicole: One of the things I found out for my book. There is all this concern about these accumulated fantasies of disaster. What can happen to perpetrators, and how bad it will be if we say out loud what they did. But I interviewed the perpetrators, and those things didn’t happen to them. If anything, many of them enjoyed these accountability proceedings. Because, like we’re talking about, there’s these contradictions in them. That the victim’s behavior is constrained. The victim isn’t allowed to do X, Y, and Z. Or it’ll hurt their credibility. While simultaneously, they’re forced to contact the perpetrator regularly. And that’s something perpetrators enjoy. Anne: Yeah, they like it. Nicole: Yes! Anne: Sorry, we need to focus on this. I created a Strategy workshop. It’s called The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop , and it helps women see why abusers like this enjoy it. And what these types of abusers get out of it. So that women can use strategy to protect themselves. We’re not enjoying it, the victims do not enjoy it, that’s what you discovered. I’m like, yes, the perpetrators enjoy it. And it’s because they never lose. Nicole: Even if they lose, the losses are hollow. One student was expelled for intimate partner violence while I was on campus. I want to say this is very standard. There’s been a lot of research about how schools handle violence in the past few years, and the average university expels one perpetrator every three years. Expulsion & Perpetrator Protection: Helping Abuse Victims Nicole: It is rare. I happened to be on campus that year, which is unusual. What that expulsion meant was because of this rush to protect the perpetrator, this rush to make sure nothing bad happened to him. By the time he was expelled, the Dean of Students helped facilitate his transfer to another university. It was close enough by, he didn’t even have to move apartments. They had slowed down the proceedings for two years. Originally with the hope that he would graduate before they had to hold him accountable, but he didn’t graduate for many reasons I get into in the book. And instead, what that meant for the victim for those two years, she had to take a leave of absence. Because he was so violent and dangerous, she couldn’t safely be on campus. And so they told her, the same thing we were talking about before. Until he’s been through this process, we can’t offer you any kind of assistance. So if you can’t handle being here, you’re the one who should leave. It’s the opposite of helping someone who is an abuse victim. And that’s one of the big things that I hope people take from the book and all these conversations. Is that every time we do something like this to protect a perpetrator. Every time we say, I’m going to be fair to both people. I’m going to invite you to this place, and anybody who can’t handle it, don’t come. What you’re saying is the perpetrator will be here, and the victim won’t. You’re not giving them anything possible. Victims can’t turn off their trauma and peacefully coexist. Even if they do manage to share space with the perpetrator, it always takes a toll, and that’s unfair. Perpetrator’s Continued Abuse Nicole: It’s not right. Everything is totally backwards. That’s actually what my literary agent called the book. Everything is backwards. Anne: Yeah, the other issue people don’t recognize is that he will still be abusing her at that event. You know, I don’t care what it is. It could be a basketball game, whatever. The way he acts, the way he’s lying about her, the way he’s like, oh, she’s so crazy. That is abuse, and he’s still doing it right now. So you haven’t stopped the abuse, who is going to help. It’s not like this happened in the past. It’s happening right then. Nicole: And I would argue that even if nothing happens, that is still a continuation of the abuse. I think of all these scenarios where the perpetrator and victim are forced to share space. Again, kids are a common scenario. And everybody watching wants to see this cartoon villain of a perpetrator that doesn’t exist. So instead, they say, he seemed nice, he was friendly to you, you seem like you’re the one who’s overreacting. And that’s part of the plan too. Grooming As Abuse Nicole: One of the things I say about perpetrators is they don’t abuse everybody. And a big part of that abuse is showing that they can follow social norms and treat people appropriately outside of their victim. Ultimately, it still leads too often, in this case. To other people trying to control the victim, blaming them and questioning their legitimacy. That’s a lot of what perpetrators do in these proceedings, is they just come in and don’t scream and yell. They’re not physically violent in that setting. And so people think, Oh, he must be fine. Anne: That is the abuse. That’s what I’m trying to say. It’s called grooming, and grooming is abusive. So that is the abuse. They don’t realize they’re being abused too, because he’s not being honest. He’s not doing anything overt, but he’s not coming in and saying, I did do this. This is the truth, right? Nicole: That’s the only thing that would be not abusive, right? Would be if there was a shared reality that abuse occurred. That is the only thing that would be fair to a victim. Anne: Yes, and it’s the only way abuse would not occur. You just said that, I just repeated you. Sorry, but yeah. Nicole: That just makes me feel like it was a good point. Anne: It was. It was worthy of repeating. It’s huge when you talk about institutional issues with this. The same thing happens with the courts with civil custody cases in the same way. And it’s so hard, because that’s just that part where you said she helped him transfer his stuff to the new school. Institutional Betrayal: When They Refuse To Help Abuse Victims Anne: No one is helping the victims do these things. No one’s helping her. Nicole: And that was one of the most glaring disparities of all. There’s actually an academic concept that I introduced early in the book in the first few pages that I think would be helpful to your listeners. And it’s this idea of institutional betrayal. And institutional betrayal is defined as actions or inactions that exacerbate trauma. So when they behave in a way that makes the traumatic experience more traumatic. One of the big focus points in the book. Is the victim’s experience of violence and trauma not set from the end of the violent event. It actually depends on everything that happens afterwards. So, you know, if you tell your friends, do they believe you? Do they take your side or your perpetrator’s side? Do you get control over what happens after the violence is over? Or is somebody reporting to the police against your will or putting you into these scenarios that you don’t want to be in against your will? Abuse is ultimately a violation of autonomy. And so every time an institution violates our autonomy again, that’s going to trigger those traumatic experiences. In studies, we find that survivors who experience institutional betrayal show the same traumatic symptoms as a victim assaulted a second time. It is an equal severity to that original act of violence, which is why it’s important that our institutions get this right. And for our friends and families to get this right too. Hope For Better Support Nicole: Because a lot of people find this overwhelming. I think it’s overwhelming to think. Wow, I thought the worst was over. I actually could encounter something just as bad when I seek help. This is overwhelming. But on the other hand, if we do get it right, we actually have the capacity to make this violence less damaging to victims. I come out hopeful, from the place where survivors who seek it get help. They have fewer traumatic symptoms. The traumatic impact of that original event is lessened. That’s got to be our goal here. It’s to step out of these damaging patterns just because it’s the way things are, or it’s what we’re used to. And oh, it would take work and change to do something different. Those aren’t good reasons. We should do the right thing, because the stakes are high. And we could help many people. Anne: Just talking with the victims I talk with daily. My eye twitches when they are not helped by the police, the civil court system, their clergy or couple therapists. This is overwhelming and scary. We do have to speak out and take some action, which is what we don’t want to do, which is what this podcast is about. Like oh, why are we making victims do more, you know? It’s such a catch 22. Nicole: I want to say one of the things about institutional betrayal too. And one of the reasons why I think it’s important that people know how institutions can harm victims. Is institutional betrayal can’t happen to the same severity, if we already have some distrust for the institution. Anticipating Institutional Responses Nicole: One of the key components is abuse victims going to get help and thinking you’re going to get it, and then not getting it. And so setting realistic expectations, not to lower the bar for these institutions, to raise the bar actually, Anne: Yeah, no, I get what you’re saying. Nicole: Yeah, but to know what can happen. Anne: That’s what the Living Free Workshop is for, anticipating. If you talk to clergy about this, this is likely what’s going to happen. So instead of doing that, let’s do this other thing. If you are going to report this, this is likely what’s going to happen. And so instead of doing that, although you can report, but like know these things beforehand. The Living Free Workshop helps victims anticipate, because this has been driving me crazy for years. In my state, at the bottom of every article about domestic violence, everyone, there’s like: Call the national domestic violence hotline. And then call our state domestic violence hotline. And everyone thinks that’s the solution. They think reporting is the solution. They don’t realize that that’s not the solution at all. In fact, one victim I know recently had the department that oversees victim services contact her. And they were like, hey, we heard that you had a bad interaction with a police officer in this certain county. We’re going to interview you. So she told him, yeah, I’ve been working with this domestic violence shelter. I have a victim advocate. She told him the whole story. And she’s been working with a victim advocate at our local domestic violence shelter for over two years. They like reviewed her case. Abuse Victims Get Help From Confidential Community Support Anne: They got back to her, and guess what they said? They said, Oh, your case is really, really bad. You need services. Have you contacted your local domestic violence shelter? Nicole: Oh my. Anne: So it was like a full circle. You know, the thing I think people think is to put this phone number on the bottom of a newspaper article. And the problem is solved. And if she doesn’t call that number, it’s her fault because she didn’t call the number. Nicole: So I think one of the questions I get is, if many of these systems aren’t trustworthy. Where can they go to get help? And the response is to go to a confidential community like this one or a rape crisis hotline. That is different than a domestic violence shelter. You want one that’s confidential, because a confidential service won’t call the police. They cannot be subpoenaed in a court of law. So if you have questions to try to make sense of all the options in your community, they can work through that with you without things snowballing out of your control. And so it’s step one. Obviously, that’s just a place to let you know what the options are and which ones other survivors think are the most trustworthy. Things like that, but what I would say is make sure you’re going somewhere confidential, which will give you many options, not just one option. Anywhere that’s pushing you back to one option is probably not the right place. That’s a big part of why I wrote the book. I talk about campus violence. But I talk about these broader trends in how survivors lose the trajectory of their cases. Victims lose their autonomy, and are re-traumatized. Red Flags In Institutional Responses Nicole: Things you can almost treat like red flags . So things like being told one thing will happen, but you didn’t get the full story. And actually now everything’s moving in a different direction. Things like seeing your case broken into a bunch of pieces, where people only want to focus on one tiny part of it. And then they ignore everything else. Lots of things like that, where you can see these institutional red flags. And one of them is one of the ones we’ve been talking about this whole time. Which is when people conflate punishment and consequences, when people act as if there are natural consequences to violence. And when a victim says, “I’ve experienced this, I’m dealing with these consequences. I need help with consequences.” Victims are recast as punishing, and everything focuses on, but that could be bad for the perpetrator. That is one of the biggest red flags. Because you can’t just make that stuff go away. Like, trauma is trauma. It’s a physiological process. We can see evidence of it on the body. You can’t just say, oh, you’re right. I don’t want anything bad to happen to my perpetrator. So it goes away. And that’s one of the ones to think about is that conflation between addressing the consequences that are unavoidable. That are just going to happen due to the action of violence, coercion, harassment, or whatever it is you’ve experienced. And acting as if recognizing those consequences is inherently unfair to the perpetrator. That I would say is one of the biggest red flags and coming forward. Anne: That’s really, really good. Misogyny In Handling Cases Anne: I was trying to explain this to someone once, and I said, “Can you imagine if a man had a business partner, and that business partner stole a bunch of money from the business. And the guy couldn’t hold him accountable in court?” And then everyone around him told him, “You have to attend church with this guy.” And I’ve had people say to me, that’s crazy. This is completely different. And I’m like, what I’m talking about is like 50 billion times worse. Nicole: Yeah. Anne: I think about it in terms of a man being forced to interact with someone who hurt him. They can’t even talk about that, because they’re like, that would never happen. Nicole: Right. It’s suddenly so clear. It’s suddenly so clear that it would be unfair. And that’s, I mean, gender is such a big part of it, right? It is. Yeah. One of the things I found in my work was that when the roles were on a title IX case, you would call it complainant and respondents. That’s sort of the civil equivalent of like plaintiff. I guess there’s no version in a criminal trial where the victim is treated as a person and not evidence. But you know, it’s the same as plaintiff and defendant, but in a Title IX context is complainant and respondent. So when those roles are reversed, usually in a retaliatory complaint, is where a real act of violence happened. The victim tried to report it, and the perpetrator responds by filing a second complaint saying, actually, I’m the true victim. Retaliatory Complaints: When You Go For Help And It Gets Worse Nicole: So again, a classic example of this is Johnny Depp versus Amber Heard. He doesn’t argue, no, there was never any violence. He says she deserved it. Actually, she’s the abuser, and I think I’m the true victim. And the goal of these retaliatory complaints is to muddle the narrative, confuse investigators, and intimidate the victim into dropping their original complaint. That’s what’s happening here. And then sometimes when we talk about cases like Depp vs. Heard, there is that benefit we already talked about. Which is that even if it is a second case, the perpetrator feels confident, nothing bad will happen to them. They can enjoy the forced contact with the victim. Who previously escaped him. In cases of retaliatory complaints, I found the university didn’t care anymore about due process. That when women were in the role of the accused, they faced many consequences. A lot of, I would argue, punishment because they didn’t do anything. It can’t be consequences for their actions when all they did was report something someone else did to them. And it is a gender issue. It’s that when it’s a woman versus a man. There is a real sense that we should take the side of the man, no matter what he has done, because he is a leader. Because he should have male privilege, or you know, whatever it might be. He’s the more important person, so we should protect the more important person. And sometimes that comes out in overtly misogynistic, obvious ways, and sometimes it’s a little more shielded in something more, called empathy. Empathy For Perpetrators Nicole: So this concept of empathy comes from a philosopher named Kate Mann. Men receive excessive empathy at the expense of women. Anne: Hmm Nicole: Yeah. It’s a great concept. Anne: I’m liking this. Nicole: It’s so good. That’s another book you should get. You should read Entitled by Cate Mann, it’s so good. But what this can look like in practice is somebody saying something like, well, you know, abuse is horrible. The victim’s life is already ruined. The best we can do is try to make sure it doesn’t ruin two lives instead of one. I want to make sure we do right by the perpetrator. People say it all the time. I have an entire chapter of the book about this. It’s truly unbelievable, if I didn’t have the direct quotes from the administrator saying it. It’s treated as this righteous thing. If I can empathize with even the most sort of deplorable people in our society, I must be a good person. There’s nothing worse than a perpetrator of abuse. And so if I can empathize with that person, that means I’m the most empathetic person. And that means I’m the most moral person. That is what many people think, but it is totally backwards and it’s not hard to empathize with men in these cases. Culture trains us to do that. The difficult thing is to empathize with the victim, instead of treating the victim like evidence in the man’s story. Anne: Sorry, I can’t even, I can’t, I can’t. No wonder people don’t love me at church because I don’t sympathize with abusive men I’m like, I don’t care about him. Support For Survivors Anne: And people are like, so offended. Nicole: Yeah, people find it offensive. Anne: And I’m like, why are you offended? He’s a rapist. Why do you care about him? Nicole: I think that’s the place we need to get to, especially in this moment in society where most people are empathizing with the perpetrator. So this framework I was thinking about where everybody’s saying, oh, you know, I’m going to empathize with the perpetrator because it’s a hard thing to do. Something administrators would say is everybody’s going to side with the victim, because we all know rape is wrong. So she’s going to have everybody in her corner. He doesn’t have anybody in his corner. So I’m going to be the person to show up for him. But the problem was everybody was doing that. And so what we need at the bare minimum is a whole group of people who will show up for the survivor in that same way. To recognize the real reality, which is the perpetrator has so many people in his corner. Sometimes, her entire social group pushes the victim out. One of the things that’s so traumatic about violence is that a lot of people lose all their loved ones. They’re friends, many of their family, they might have to switch schools or change jobs, because everybody is focusing on being “fair” to the perpetrator. I put fair in big quotes here because none of this is fair. If what we’re doing for the perpetrator means the victim has to leave, it’s not fair. Anne: There is no fairness. Nicole: This makes me think of the next book I want to write. Why Can’t Abuse Victims Ever Get Help? Nicole: And so, you know, I’m putting the feelers out there if you know any publishers. The next book I want to write is something with a sort of working title of something like The Responsibilities of Rapists . Because I think when we have an entire society where none of these systems are good at holding perpetrators accountable. It’s really hard for people to imagine what that looks like for themselves. It’s hard to reinvent the wheel. Most people are not experts on violence. But I do think at a bare minimum in our personal lives. When we know that we can’t trust many of these systems to help abuse victims. We have to handle this as individuals and communities. I think at the bare minimum, if we know that the main thing victims want is never to share space with their perpetrator again. That’s the number one thing victims say they want. At the bare minimum, I think we can ask that a perpetrator leaves a place where a victim is. For the rest of their lives. That gives them the rest of the planet they can be in. And that one spot where the victim is should always be that space, because the trauma will leave a lifelong impact for the victim . It’s never going away. And so if we look at the perpetrator and say, well it’s been five years, why isn’t she over it yet? That’s saying there’s a time limit for how long the victim can be traumatized. That’s not how it works. Reasonable Consequences For Perpetrators Nicole: And I think it’s reasonable to say, if you perpetrated a assault, the minimum of consequences is: If you see the victim in the grocery store, at your new job, you turn around, walk out, and go to a different grocery store. You get a different job. This is reasonable to ask for. If anything, it’s lenient. For an abuse victim looking, help seems impossible to find. Anne: You are 100 percent well spoken and amazing. I appreciate this conversation. Nicole, I’m so grateful that you’re doing this work. Thank you so much for spending the time to talk to me today. Nicole: Thank you so much for having me on. This has been great. These are the kinds of conversations that people need. I’m so glad I got to be here today. Anne: Thank you.…

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You – How To Deal With His Chaos 29:51

6 weeks ago29:51

29:51

There is no fear or pain equivalent to the trauma when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Whether it’s through the family court system, co-parenting, or simply creating chaos out of everyday situations, abusers know that one of the most effective ways to harm a woman is through her children. If you’re going through this and need support, attend a Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Session TODAY. When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You In The Courtroom Abusive men use the courtroom to not only torment victims, but also to manipulate court professionals and seek validation. They don’t want parenting time or a peaceful resolution, they want to win. They want chaos and enjoy the fight. To know if your ex is emotionally abusive, take our free emotional abuse quiz . When he uses the kids to hurt you in the courtroom, it is essential that you seek support, practice radical self-compassion and self-care, and live by boundaries. Family court systems all over the world are broken. Outcomes are completely unpredictable. However, you can determine now to love and accept yourself no matter what happens. You can determine now to surround yourself with people who love you and build you up. You will need support and community as you face your abuser in the courtroom. When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Use Your Own Anger Your anger is a powerful force that can drive you to take action. Anger is a catalyst for change. The reason why so many people fear an angry woman is because an angry woman is unstoppable—she takes action and challenges the status quo. This is precisely why abusers and oppressors work so hard to suppress women’s anger. They know it can dismantle their control. Anger, when channeled constructively, becomes a tool for empowerment, inspiring bold steps toward justice. When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You: Abuse By Proxy If an abuser harms or manipulates the children to harm you, it’s known as “abuse by proxy.” This tactic involves using the children as tools to control, intimidate, or emotionally damage you, often by turning them against you or causing them emotional distress. It is considered a severe and harmful form of post-separation abuse, with long-lasting effects on both the targeted parent and the children involved. Learn strategies to protect yourself from post separation abuse in The Living Free Workshop. Transcript: When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You Anne: It’s just me today. You’re about to hear something I recorded years ago. When I got divorced, I started with a pretty good custody situation. However, my ex was still emotionally and psychologically abusing me almost daily. He’s an attorney. And he neglected the kids, undermining their medical care. He cancelled medical appointments. He refused to support any of their extracurricular activities. Every day was chaos. I went to court six years post divorce to try to get him even less custody. He got more as a result of that case. I was devastated, you’ll hear that in my voice. At the time, I recorded this. I didn’t know what would happen. But after I recorded it, I began studying deliverance and praying for deliverance. I asked God to show me strategies that I could use to enable Christ to deliver me and my children. That study led me on a journey, and a year later, I actually got absolute, full custody of my children, with my ex having extremely minimal time. And these strategies I employed out of court. So this was not a result of a court case. He basically signed his rights away. He gave me full deciding power, and they only needed to go with him one weekend a month. Two holidays a year and one week in the summer, which is incredible. Because that worked, I mentored other women with these same strategies to ensure it wasn’t just a fluke. Like, was this only gonna work for me? Or could it work when your ex uses the kids to hurt you, or for any woman in any situation? Whether she was still married, separated or divorced. Would these living free strategies work for anyone? And we found they did. Writing The Living Free & Message Workshops Anne: To make sure that every woman had access to these strategies, I wrote the BTR Living Free Workshop . As you listen, you’ll hear how much I wanted to protect my children from this awful custody situation. I want you to know that we were delivered. I believe my Savior, Jesus Christ showed me these strategies through my study. Now that’s in Living Free. So if you want to learn more about The Living Free Workshop . Part of the strategy I used is in the BTR.ORG Message Workshop . You can enroll in The Message Workshop after you finished the Living Free lessons. The Message Workshop builds on the foundation of Living Free. So start with Living Free. All right, are you ready to hear this recording from years ago, before I found the living free strategies? Most of you know that I am religious, that I follow a faith tradition, I’m Christian. Specifically a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am grateful for the foundation that provides me of faith and hope in God and my Savior, Jesus Christ. For you non-religious listeners, atheists or agnostics, you are welcome here. We’re so glad you’re here, and I’m so grateful that you listen and are part of this. Because this issue affects every woman, regardless of her paradigm, her faith, or the way that she sees the world. Parable Of The Wheat & The Tares Anne: I’ve been studying the parable of the wheat and the tares. For women of Christian faith, you’re probably familiar with the wheat and the tares. For everyone else, please indulge me. In Matthew 13, verse 25, where it says, but while men slept. Sometimes I wonder if that means that while the clergy, legal system, and basically any man who could stop the abuse, but won’t. They will not hold the abuser accountable. They won’t believe us or listen to us. That as these men sleep, the children of the devil grew and grew until you could see their fruits, basically, is what this is talking about. Many victims of abuse try to justify not setting boundaries with the abuser, because he’s “a child of God.” Well, he’s a child of God. So I’m going to love him, God loves him. But that doesn’t mean he’s not hurting our kids. But in this parable, starting in Matthew 13, it clearly states that there are children of the “wicked one.” And I’ve been thinking about the way the scriptures, both the Bible and the Book of Mormon, describe men who are not obeying the commandments. They don’t say, and he didn’t obey the commandments because he felt shame. They actually call them a word. And the word they call them is wicked. This is a common term used throughout the scriptures. Part of me wonders why don’t we use this term anymore? And part of it is the Christian aversion to passing judgment. But Christ also asks us to decipher between good and evil. That’s part of the reason why we’re here on earth. There are those of us who have set boundaries. Setting Boundaries When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You Anne: We’ve removed everything the abuser can use to hurt us. Essentially, there’s nothing left for them to use to hurt us, except for one thing, our children. Your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Because they’re the dad, they can assert control that way. Every day, I hear stories of sheroes, victims of abuse, who are not believed or supported by their churches. Every day, I hear about how their children, these children of wicked men and righteous mothers. Are dragged through chaos and pain regarding custody in the courts, because the wicked have no desire for peace. That’s not their goal. Their goal is to win. I wonder if you would do something with me, and if our whole community will do this. And for you atheists, maybe just hold it like a moment of silence or something that works for you. Like offer it up to the universe. Will you pray every morning and night for the next 30 days that the tares can be gathered and burned? Talking about that classic parable from Matthew 13 about the wheat and the tares. I know it’s apocalyptic. It sounds intense. We’ve also talked so much about boundaries on this podcast. The boundaries separate us from harm. No matter what boundaries you use, they can still actually be abusive. So the only thing you can do is separate yourself from the harm. You can’t stop the harm, but boundaries are definitely the most important and basically the only tool in our toolbox to get to safety. Self sufficiency brings us peace. Boundaries bring us as much peace as possible. Even after we have essentially said, get thee hence to our abusers, these children of the wicked one, they still have a way to hurt us through our children. Scriptural Helps & Safety Anne: There’s nothing you can do in many cases, when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. We’re not able to command armies like the men in the scriptures to protect their families when they go to war. We don’t have that ability, but we do have an army of angels to help us. One of my favorite scriptures regarding the wheat and the tares says, behold verily, I say unto you, the angels are crying unto the Lord day and night. Who are ready and waiting to be sent forth to reap down the fields. And then another scripture in Mormon 8 verses 40 through 41 says, Yea, why do you build secret abominations to gain and cause that the widows should mourn before the Lord. And also orphans to mourn before the Lord for vengeance upon your heads? Behold, the sword of vengeance hangeth over you, and the time soon cometh that he avengeth the blood of the saints upon you. For he will not suffer their cries any longer. The parable of the wheat and the tares is related to Matthew 24:40. Where the scriptures say, Then shall two be in the field, and one shall be taken, and the other left. Call For Prayers For Peace & Deliverance Anne: Will you pray with me morning and night for the next 30 days? That the tares in our lives, the children of the wicked one that are fully ripe and have the fruits to prove their wickedness. Will be removed from our lives so that we can have peace? Here’s another scripture. In second Nephi 26, three through four, it talks about the wheat and the tares. It says, and great and terrible shall that day be unto the wicked, for they shall perish. And they perish because they cast out the righteous (women). I’m paraphrasing there, and stone them and slay them. Wherefore, the cry of the victims of abuse shall ascend up to God from the ground against them. Verse four, where for all those who are proud and that do wickedly. The day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, for they shall be as stubble. And in Isaiah 35:4 we read, say to them that are of a fearful heart, be strong, fear not, behold, your God will come in vengeance. Even God with a recompense, he will come and save you. Personally speaking, you may have heard several podcasts where I said I was going through a difficult thing. And I didn’t say much about it, because it had to do with a custody case regarding my children. Which I actually lost. So I wanted to share with you that I did everything right. Personal Custody Struggles When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You Anne: I was honest. I was forthright. I said my concerns and the people involved just did not believe me. And I saw the writing on the wall. I lost and settled the case. As a result, my children have a much more difficult custody schedule. Something else that came out of that was that instead of going through my dad. I know I’ve talked for years about how we’ve communicated through my dad, and I’ve done no contact. It became obvious to me that the court did not like that at all. So I switched from my dad being the mediator to using the Our Family Wizard app. I don’t have it on my phone, but I do have it on my computer, and I check it every day. That’s another way I don’t get emails, phone calls or texts that trigger me. So that it’s at least separated from me, all the contact goes through Our Family Wizard . That’s been working really well. A lot of prayer to figure out how to do this right. It’s been a process. So my custody situation is worse for my children now. Things are very hard, and I’ve just recognized that the court system, the clergy system, the religious system, really doesn’t help victims. We really do have to be our own sheroes. Reporting Abuse Can Be Unsafe Anne: If you have physical abuse happening, reporting is a good idea, but it can be unsafe in so many ways. So if you have something criminal to report. I highly recommend you schedule an individual session with Coach Renee, who can help coach you on how to do that with your local authorities. The outcome obviously cannot be guaranteed, but to give you the best experience possible, because it’s going to be traumatic. Regardless, the court system is a mess. I brought Tina Swithin on and Wendy Hernandez, and I’ve just been doing a ton of study on custody things. And really, the conclusion I came to is that God is our only hope, or the universe, or whatever you believe in, but for me it’s God. Our only hope for justice is through our Heavenly Parents, and our Savior, Jesus Christ. I’ve turned my heart to Him and realize that there isn’t anything worldly that can protect me in this instance. Where I share children with my abuser. The laws require us to maintain contact with the man who harmed us. He continues to lie and abuse, harming us and our children. So after losing this case, me Anne, I don’t know everything you guys know. I don’t know everything. I’m just like you and I’m in the process of learning, but I thought I could figure it out. Like I followed Tina Swithin’s advice. I followed Wendy Hernandez’s advice. I had a good attorney, and I prayed, prayed, and prayed. It still didn’t go the way I wanted. So here are a few things I’ve come to grips with. Hope & Faith In God Anne: One part of me wonders if the reason I didn’t win and why things are harder for my children is because I believe God asked me to start this organization and to podcast here. My ex used the kids to hurt me. Maybe your ex uses the kids to hurt you. He’s asked me to talk to you. In the past when I said, do no contact. And you guys were like, it’s hard to do no contact. The court won’t let me. I was like, no, you can do it. Now I’m thinking, man, I never had that experience when the court was like, no, you can’t do that. Now here I am. So. I wanted to empathize and apologize if I made it seem easy. Because for six years, my custody situation was fantastic, and then my ex got remarried. And with that, he has his new wife to care for the kids. So of course he wanted to take them more, because he doesn’t have to take care of them. Now that I’m here, my heart goes out to all of us who have been through this, and I’m sorry if I made it seem easy before. It’s not, it’s really hard. Also, for all of us who have done everything right, we’ve done every single thing. We have reported crimes, set boundaries, and separated ourselves from the harm. And we’re still not able to actually stop the harm to our children. It is the most excruciating difficult situation. And it’s long term, and it reminds me of the people in the scriptures who are in bondage. The Israelites and in the Book of Mormon, there are Nephites in bondage. This bondage scenario keeps coming to me over and over again. When your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You, Pray For Deliverance Anne: So in addition to praying for the tares to be removed from our lives. Rather than praying your husband will change, might I suggest praying for deliverance? In the scriptures, people in bondage pray for deliverance, knowing that God is their only option. The law can’t help them, and in the Israelites’ experience, the law was the Egyptians. The law ruled them in bondage. So they have no way to get out. I think that’s the case with us. The righteous, currently speaking, are in bondage from the wicked in their homes or out of their homes from their ex husbands. And how do we get delivered? In my opinion, we need to humble ourselves and let God know that He is our only option. That the courts don’t understand this. They think he’s just trying to be a good dad. But that’s not it, and therapists don’t understand he’s just using the children to hurt you. That we only have one option. And that is our Savior, who somehow leads us out of bondage, and delivers us. So my suggestion is to pray for deliverance, rather than to pray that your husband will change. Or pray he’ll get it, or see the light, and pray for deliverance. That deliverance can come in two ways. It can come through him repenting. That would actually deliver you from abuse. The second option for deliverance is that he could be removed from your life somehow. That deliverance would be a miracle. Now, I don’t want to put limits on God. Maybe there are 10 other options that I don’t know about, but there are at least two. And I think praying for deliverance is what we need to do. And I think we’ve missed the boat when we pray for something else. Praying For Custody Case & My Situation Got Worse Anne: I was praying for my custody case, and my custody situation got worse. My child support situation got worse. There was literally nothing in the last case that I went through that got better. Every single thing I wanted, I didn’t get. After we settled, all the things I thought would happen are happening now. It just shows me that his only concern or interest was winning, not the best interest of the children. How do you negotiate or do the best thing for your kids? If every time you suggest what you think is the best thing, that other person cares about winning. They just want to contradict everything you do or say, it just doesn’t work. It’s not going to work for kids, but in the meantime, we’re not being delivered, it’s a difficult place to be. There is a popular Instagrammer who was abused for a long time. She doesn’t recognize it as abuse, and now she’s super positive about her divorce. She is like, I wish him well, and now we’re co-parenting together. And never acknowledged the abuse or what was happening. She is now going on to live her best life. And I’ve been really triggered by it, actually. Because I want to live the life I want to live. But I’m still faced with this oppression from an abuser. I don’t know, I just have so many feelings about it. I have so many feelings about it, like, if I just think about it differently, will it be different? There’s that like new age thinking, you know, if you’re grateful, that will fix it. But it’s hard to be grateful when your ex is using the kids to hurt you. Here’s a comment similar to this, that we got on the podcast the other day. Your Comments Help Others Find Us Anne: By the way, please comment on any of the podcast episodes. Every one of your comments helps isolated women find us. I love hearing your feedback, what you think about the episodes, and your experience. If something I say on an episode or something that one of the guests says is something you’ve been through, like if your ex uses the kids to hurt you. Please go to BTR.ORG , find that episode and comment. I want to know if this has been your experience too. So a woman commented and said, “I just wanted to reach out and let you know that I am with you too. Your words struck a chord, especially the parts about your husband lying, even when you had proof, minimizing the situation and not facing the truth. Not knowing everything is driving me crazy. “The scenarios I am now imagining are far worse than any truth could be. And yes, how do we begin to move forward when looking back at our lives is so excruciatingly painful when faced with the cold fact that it was fake. And we were taken for a fool.” “I hope you’re doing okay in this new painful reality we seem to find ourselves in. I read somewhere that we have three possible choices after betrayal: To become bitter, go mad or grow. And I wish you love and strength on your path.” I’m grateful for this comment. One of the things that struck me was these three possible choices after betrayal. This Instagrammer I previously talked about who’s now facing divorce with resilience. She’s pulling her bootstraps up, and happy, and will live her best life. She’ll say things like that. Either become bitter, go mad, or grow. So I’m going to choose growth. It’s Okay to be Angry When He’s Hurting You And Your Kids Anne: The woman who commented on this, I’m not sure what her status is. But I think, “You have these three choices,” is a misogynistic trope. I hate to call her out, but I need to point this out when I read that. That this misogynistic trope is that women can’t be bitter or angry, that women must grow through this. I just want to relieve every woman on the planet of the concern about being angry (bitter). If you were not angry about what happened to you, you would go crazy. Like, you would be a robot. I don’t know, something would be wrong with you. Like, it’s not normal to not be angry in this situation. Being angry is a normal reaction when your ex is hurting your kids. One of my goals is to help women embrace their anger to get to emotional and psychological safety. So please don’t ever worry about being bitter. The anger will dissolve once you are safe. Men generally tell women not to be bitter when women are justified in their anger. And the abuse hasn’t stopped yet. So generally speaking, when a woman is still angry, they’ll say, well, she’s been angry for a long time. So now she’s bitter. And maybe she’s angry because he hasn’t stopped hurting the kids. Permission Given To Be Angry & Bitter Anne: Even in my case, I’ve figured out how to separate myself from harm well. It’s still happening. I have no legal recourse, no way of stopping it. People saying, “Hey, don’t be a bitter woman, angry woman, or crazy woman.” It’s simply a manipulation tactic to gaslight women into not taking steps to safety. I want to give everyone permission to be angry, be bitter even. There aren’t these three options. It’s not like you become bitter, you go mad or you grow. Those are not the three options you have. You have one choice, one path. The path is to get to real, true emotional and psychological safety. That is your goal. If you’re on that path to safety, you’re angry, great, or you seem crazy to some people because you move out. And they think, your husband’s so great. Why are you moving out? You seem crazy. Fine, the goal, the one possible option for you is to get to safety. I believe the actual distance you put between yourself and the harm, the safer you feel, and the less angry you will feel over time. And that’s because your anger is a gift from God. That will help you take action, and the reason why everybody is afraid of an angry woman is because an angry woman takes action. People do not want women to take action. So, please, anger is the best. I love anger right now. I’m excited about it. Think about what anger can do for you. Can it help you get to safety and feel happy and peaceful? That’s the goal. Anger is not the goal. Think about what spurs you to action? Anger is a great resource God gave us to use when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. The Character Of Abusers Anne: Many times in the scriptures, it talks about prophets or people angry with the wickedness of the world. They took action to bring peace for themselves and their families, and that’s awesome. Another thing that we’ve talked about many times on the podcast is that abuse is a behavior. Like when your ex uses the kids to hurt you. If you say look at their behaviors, there’s also this manipulative kindness that can happen, grooming. When they groom to manipulate you, how do you know what it is? There’s one other factor here, and it could be that yelling at you is a sign of his abuse. Well, what if you yell at him? Is that a sign of your abuse ? Or is that a sign of you trying to stand up for yourself? Are you trying to take action when your ex is still hurting the kids? I think the better way to think about abuse, rather than behavior, is that it’s a character. An abusive character means even kindness is for an alternate purpose. Even kindness has a goal behind it. It’s not to care for that person. It’s to manipulate or use them. That’s what we’re looking for, is their character the character of manipulative kindness or exploitative privilege? Or is it genuine care and protection for you? I’ve had many conversations about the term entitlement. We know that one of the four pillars of abuse. You can find this infographic in the back of my book, Trauma Mama Husband Drama . You can also see that four pillars of abuse floating around on Instagram and Facebook pages of Betrayal Trauma Recovery. And one of the four pillars of abuse is entitlement. This is not a strong enough word. We need a stronger word. Exploitative Privilege, When Your Ex Uses The Kids To Hurt You Anne: I came up with the word exploitative privilege. Which means they use their privilege as a man to exploit women. As a woman, you owe me. You owe me intimacy, dinner, you owe me to take care of the kids, and I don’t need to do any of that. These are the things that I’m entitled to as a man. And I’m going to avail myself of these things. That is exploitative privilege to exploit their spouse, which is an abusive behavior. People who don’t have an abusive character don’t want to exploit other people. It makes them feel uncomfortable. https://youtu.be/t-Kt15CpMdY But people with an exploitative abusive character will sometimes be kind, because it’s goal oriented. So that’s another word that I want you guys to think about. Rather than entitlement, although entitlement can work, and if it works for you, great. This other term exploitative privilege, I think, defines what’s happening more. That it is the exploitative privilege that misogyny affords them. Because of that, all their actions and conversations are through that lens of exploitative privilege. That is always an abusive situation. Rather than a relationship with someone who sees you both as equals, both your needs are equal, both your responsibilities are equal. Where you’re an equal partner. Someone who sees you as an actual equal partner, not someone to be used, is not abusive. Their character will not be abusive. Even if they yell because you got a flat tire or something, it’s not the yelling necessarily that is the abuse, because some of these abusers never yell. They do everything with a smile on their face, and everything they do is well crafted and looks good. But it’s the goal. What is the goal? When your ex hasn’t stopped hurting the kids. My Current Reflections Anne: So, that’s where I am in my life right now. I’m thinking about the wheat and the tares. I’m thinking about deliverance and I’m thinking about how anger can help us with that. So, will you pray with me for the next 30 days that the tares can be removed from our lives? That we can be delivered? And consider how anger can help us take action to separate ourselves from the wicked. Separate ourselves from those who would do us harm, rather than those who want peace. And use our anger to take action when your ex hurts the kids. Because abusers goal isn’t peace. Their goal is control. Our goal is safety and peace. It really is. I don’t know of any woman who necessarily wants to control things. They just want things to be peaceful. I appreciate your prayers. If you have prayed for me, if you knew about the custody thing, now my only hope is through my Savior, Jesus Christ. That my children and I will be delivered, and that through the grace of God, we can live the peaceful life that I want to live. That is promised to the righteous. Then maybe it’s not in this life. I also consider my situation much better than some. So gratitude definitely has a place. I am much more peaceful now than ever. Even though my custody situation is worse. And even though my child support situation is worse. I’m grateful. I’m grateful for what I’ve learned. And I hope our faith will fruit a miracle, and move a mountain. Miracles Come Through Hard Work Anne: My nine year old son lately has been saying the most interesting things. We’ve been out weeding the garden, for example, and he’ll say, Mom, we have a miracle here. I’ll be like, what are you talking about? And he’s like, we have a miracle of this beautiful garden. Do you know what made the miracle happen? And I’m like, no, what? He’s like weeding, our weeding made a miracle. And he said the same thing about grocery shopping. He’s like, we went grocery shopping, and that made the miracle of this dinner. And I said, so what makes a miracle? And he said, Mom, work, hard work. At this point, we’ve done the work sisters. So many of us have done so much work. We have worked and worked. My hope is that through our prayers and faith, we can rest in the Lord and ask him to deliver us. And ask him to remove these tares from our lives, so we can rest. No, I don’t want us to bring on the second coming if you’re a believer in that. That sounds miserable, and I’d rather be safely dead than experience that. But maybe that’s what God’s waiting for. I don’t know. Being able to share my own experience, has been a blessing to me personally. I’m grateful to have met all of you wonderful sisters along this journey. So thank you. It’s both validating to hear how far I’ve come, and also sad. I’m like I look back and think, wow, I was being harmed and I didn’t even recognize it. If you’re in a dark place and you don’t know how to get out of the chaos your husband or ex-husband is creating, learn about The Living Free Workshop.…

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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I Think My Husband Is Lying To Me – Stacey’s Story 44:45

7 weeks ago44:45

44:45

When something just feels off. Do I think, “My husband is lying to me.” How do you know what to do next? When he gives you that strange, blank look before answering a simple question, it’s likely that he was taking time to formulate a story he thought you’d believe. Stacey is on the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast sharing her own story of seeking safety after learning that her husband was living a double life, rife with lies and manipulation. To discover if you’re experiencing this type of emotional abuse (lying), take our free emotional abuse quiz . The Abuser Puts On A Facade Many victims struggle to accept that the abuser is manipulating them because of the incredibly believable facade they put on. The abuser may wear a mask that makes him seem: Devoutly religious Like an honorable leader (many abusers hold public leadership roles) Incredibly smart (doctors, attorneys, professors, etc) Gentle (others may say things like, “He wouldn’t hurt a fly!” Altruistic and woke (some abusers may be very involved in human rights activism, civil rights, or other causes to seem like a good person) Grounded and at peace (they may wear this mask by getting involved in new-age practices like yoga, meditation, secular Buddhism, becoming a life coach, etc). The Abuser Gaslights You To Avoid Getting Caught Abusers will keep victims spiraling in every direction, so that catching your husband lying is a nearly impossible feat. They keep victims especially fixated on their own “flaws” so that victims feel they’re not allowed or worthy to address the abuser’s dishonesty. If Something Feels Off, Trust Yourself Ultimately, you can’t outsmart an abuser – they’ll deny, gaslight, and project until they’re blue in the face. Even if they admit they’re lying, they will never give you the closure and validation that you deserve. Instead, trust yourself that something is off, and instead of seeking definitive proof and a confession, seek safety. Our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions are a safe space for you to process your trauma and work toward safety. Attend a session today. Transcript: I Think My Husband Is Lying To Me Anne: I have a member of our community on today’s episode. We’ll call her Stacey. She’ll share her story. Welcome, Stacy. Stacey: Thank you. It’s great to be here. Anne: Can you start at the beginning? Did you recognize your husband’s behaviors as abuse when you began your relationship with him? Stacey: No, not at all. You were the first one that made me ever consider it abusive, just from listening to your podcasts. Before that, it had never even crossed my mind Anne: Let’s start with that. What types of behaviors were you experiencing that led you to want some help? What made you think,”My husband is lying to me?” Stacey: Well, he had an affair. About five years after the affair, things weren’t moving forward. I couldn’t figure out why. And that is the first time I heard the term gaslighting. And that’s when I started to search more for answers. I realized the extent of what had happened, and how I had been emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually abused. Just the extreme gaslighting that had gone on and was still going on. Anne: Had that gaslighting and manipulation happened throughout your whole marriage? Once you knew what you were looking at and looked back, did you recognize it had been happening the whole time? Stacey: For sure. I discovered he was looking at online explicit material just about a month after we married. And I think that’s when I knew I didn’t marry who I thought I had. But I felt stuck, because the next day after I found out he was looking at it, I found out I was pregnant. And that’s when I just thought, there’s nothing I can do, I’m stuck. Manipulation & Lies Anne: So what persona had he crafted to manipulate you? Stacey: Well, he’s super spiritual, and we did all the religious things. I just thought I married a spiritual, religious, truthful person. I didn’t think he was capable of the lies and betrayal that ensued. Anne: So how long between discovering it and when you discovered the affair? That you figured he was lying. Was that, I’m guessing, like 10 years or something? Stacey: Yeah, 10 years. Anne: Oh, see, I’ve become a psychic now that I’ve been doing this for so long. So 10 years, and how did you discover the affair? Stacey: Our marriage was just falling apart. I could not explain why. And I couldn’t figure out what was wrong. I thought it was me. He called me mean throughout our marriage. And also unattractive. Stuff like that. So I thought, you know, it’s just me. We ended up moving. I thought maybe it was our neighborhood and we moved across the state. And after we moved, nothing changed, and it still kept falling apart. Then I heard him one time on the phone, and he was talking to someone. I heard him saying things that just really sounded wrong. Like he said, you know, we just met the wrong way. We can’t continue our relationship, we just started wrong, and I’m like, oh my gosh, he’s talking to a girl, and he is having an affair and he’s lying to me. Because it had crossed my mind, and I had brought it up to him before, asking him if he had an affair. I said, my brother and his friend actually said it sounds like you’re having an affair. Uncovering The Affair Stacey: He was so defensive about it and was like, I can’t believe your brother would ever accuse me of that. That’s so ridiculous. I can’t believe you’d ever think that. And now looking back, he was having an affair at that exact moment and ying to me. But he was so good at making me think I was crazy to even consider that. So anyway, I overheard him on the phone and I thought, Oh my gosh, he is having an affair. And he turned the corner and saw me listening to him, and his face just said it all. It just said it all, but he talked his way out of it. I said, who are you talking to? And he just stared at me. And then finally, like a half an hour later, he finally answered and said, it was the guy from work. I just feel bad. Because I was talking about me and you, and how we started wrong, and how we were just friends and shouldn’t have gotten married, but that was my first clue. And then later on, I found him texting her about a month later. Anne: It took him a minute to figure out a story to tell you that he thought you would believe. One that made you look bad. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: Let’s talk about that stare for a minute. He just stares at you in space, right, for a little bit. Kind of a lack of blinking, would you say? Sort of a flat affect on his face? Stacey: Yeah, absolutely. Anne: Had you seen that ever in your marriage before? Stacey: I guess from time to time. I can recognize it now for what it was. Is My Husband Lying To Me? The Narcissistic Stare Stacey: To me, it’s so obvious now, looking back on it. Like, of course, he’s trying to come up with a lie. Why wouldn’t he just answer me if he wasn’t going to lie? But I wanted his story to be true. So I would accept it, because it was so much easier to think, okay, ah, he’s not having an affair. It’s okay. It’s just me. I’m the one that needs to change. Anne: I saw this stare recently with a neighbor kid. Which I thought was interesting. So he had been singing a very off-color song, and my son picked up on it and he was singing it. I’m not sure he knew what he was saying, my son. So when this neighbor kid came over, I said, “Hey, that song is not okay.” You cannot sing it around my kids. You shouldn’t be singing it at all. This is a nine year old kid. He stares at me with this blank stare for a minute, for a while, doesn’t say anything, nothing. And then after, I don’t know how long, he says, “Oh, that song, that song’s about social distancing.” And I was like, no, that’s a lie. That’s not true. You just took a minute to come up with what you thought was a plausible story. But that’s not the truth. You need to go home. And I sent him home. Because I was done. This is ridiculous. I think it’s interesting that an adult man, 40 years old, 50 years old, is still doing that. Stacey: Right. Anne: And thinking, okay, if I don’t make any moves, like no sudden movements, right? Seeking Help & Finding BTR.ORG Anne: I need to get my story straight. They’re not thinking about you in that moment. How they hurt you or anything about you. All they’re thinking is what is she going to believe? It takes some energy when your husband lies to you. That’s why they’re sort of frozen there for a second, because there’s a lot happening inside their head. And they’re trying to keep their face pretty still, so they don’t give anything away while they’re working out how they’re gonna lie to you. Or they’re working out how to manipulate you. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: Yeah. I’ve heard that called like a narcissistic stare before. I’m going to call it the stare of a liar. Stacey: Yeah, yeah, cause it’s a definite look. Anne: Many women have seen this over the years, but they don’t know what to make of it. And they don’t know what they’re looking at, right? When they see it. So five years go by after this affair. And things are just not getting better. And then you go looking for help. How did you find Betrayal Trauma Recovery? Stacey: I went to just Apple podcasts and searched for betrayal trauma. And that was the same time too. It took about five years to ever even hear the word betrayal trauma. I had been to plenty of counselors, religious counselors and leaders. I’d been to groups that my church put on. I hadn’t heard of betrayal trauma before either. The Role Of Pornography Anne: After that initial incident, where you found out about it a month after you were married. Did you see any other use, or that was it? And then he hid it well after that. Stacey: He let me in on enough truth that I wouldn’t know he was lying to me. So I always knew he had a online explicit material problem or would view it, but he would say. I look at it once, every three to six months, and that’s all. I don’t have a problem. Or every once in a while he’d talk to our religious leader and he would tell me that, and so I thought, oh okay, he’s honest with me, I didn’t know he was lying to me. And I used to say, “You know, if you look at it, tell me or if you’re struggling, let’s talk about it.” But it was interesting, because in our relationship he rarely initiated intimacy, he just wasn’t affectionate. And I’d always think, what is wrong with me? Everyone else I hear about their husband can’t keep their hands off of them. What’s wrong with me and come to find out he was he was lying. He was masturbating once a week. And he had never brought that up, so it’s like taking care of himself. And not interested in an emotional relationship with someone else. My Husband Is Lying To Me: It’s Either Too Much Or Not Enough With A User Anne: Your experience is actually more common when it comes to a user. So many women think , he just wants it all the time because he’s into this gross stuff. I would say generally speaking, you get one or the other. Someone who wants to have it, like, more than is healthy. And then the other situation where they just don’t seem interested, they don’t initiate, they’re not planning dates. They’re not interested in you as a person. Like, they don’t get you gifts for Christmas. Where it’s like, who am I to you? I remember asking my ex once, while we were married, how do you show me that you care? And he had that blank look on his face for a minute, and then guess what he said? I mow the lawn. Stacey: Oh. Anne: And I was like, you mow the lawn anyway. You, you would mow it for yourself. So that’s not a thing. Did you go down the addiction recovery route for a while? Stacey: Not at first. I thought everyone looks at it, and he just does it sometimes. During that time, after I found out about use before I found out about the affair. My sister-in-law left my brother over it. And I talked to her and said, “This is so ridiculous that you’re leaving him over this.” I got really mad, and it ruined our relationship. And now looking back. Wow, I have a different view now. We went to addiction recovery after I found out about the affair. Programs As A Grooming Tool Anne: Is this with the church, like a church program? Okay, did you find his behaviors got any better, that he used to groom you? Stacey: A little bit, yeah. He did go to addiction recovery group a little bit, like throughout the course of our marriage, but he would just kind of go to a meeting here and there, and then he would say he didn’t need it. And it wasn’t helpful to him. But when we started going after the affair, it made a little difference, not a lot. Anne: And I would say that was grooming. Where you think it helped a little bit would be that he could use the language he learned there to groom and lie to you. He was able to weaponize those things to make you feel like he was getting better when he actually wasn’t. Stacey: Yes, totally. Anne: We find that therapy, addiction recovery, even clergy meetings, if they want to hide their behaviors. They’re going to use that to groom, and they’re going to learn the language. Some guys even use the language of mindfulness. Or yoga, or I’m so emotionally healthy. Like, I think a real red flag on any dating platform is that someone says they’re interested in emotional health. They had a woman partner who was like, hey, we need to be healthy. And they’ve been to therapy, learned the language and weaponized it. Because if you meet a man who’s like, “Oh, my previous spouse was emotionally unhealthy. She wasn’t caring. She wasn’t this, she wasn’t that.” Then that new partner will be like, well, I’m caring. I’m understanding. And that is just grooming right out of the gate. Weaponizing Therapy Language Anne: They like weaponizing this therapy language, the recovery language, like, I’m not the enemy, online explicit material is the enemy. Stacey: Right. Anne: I’m not the enemy, Satan is the enemy. And I agree, Satan is the enemy, and online explicit material is the enemy, but you are on that side. You’re behind enemy lines. You’re dangerous to me because you are lying to me. Stacey: Yeah, it’s interesting what you’d say about him using therapy language, because he would use these terms. And it would drive me crazy. Because I’m like, you sound like a record, like you just learned these terms, and now you’re going to use them on me. I just felt like, not a human. I’m, no, I’m a human with emotions. You can’t just use these pre-recorded terms with me. Anne: So we come from the same faith tradition, where we believe Satan tried to overthrow God in the pre-existence before we came to earth. In our faith tradition, we believe Satan understands God’s plan. Like he understands the commandments. He understands all of it. He just doesn’t apply any of it. And I think that’s what these guys are like. They understand the therapy language, and all the clergy stuff. They read the Bible, and know all the scriptures. But it doesn’t actually lead them to repentance. Similar to Satan. He knows all these things. He just doesn’t ever repent. It never changes, and I think without the application, without actually having a change of heart. And actually being converted. Of course Satan’s gonna stay the same no matter what he knows. My Husband Was Lying to Clergy And Therapists Too Anne: So the scary thing about addiction recovery, therapy, reading your scriptures more or anything like that is that if you’re not going to apply them. You just become more and more dangerous. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: So when did you realize that common marriage advice, Christian marriage advice, like love, serve, forgive, be understanding. When did you realize that that was not working? Stacey: Right after I found out about the affair, we started going to a counselor. He actually said, “Okay, what happened is not good, but we’re gonna move forward now.” And he said to me, “You can never talk about the past. I don’t want you to bring it up. When you do, you’re just damaging your future, if you bring up the past to your husband.” He actually told my husband, if I wouldn’t stop talking about it, that he could just get up and leave and like … https://youtu.be/j8CvkDrWyRc Anne: What? Stacey: … leave me. This is a counselor. Anne: He doesn’t know that stonewalling is apparently emotional and psychological abuse, I guess, this guy. Stacey: It is horrible, horrible. And my husband, of course, loved this counselor. And so when I would talk about the past, he’s like, “No, you’re burning down the cornfield.” This is what he said. He said, “You have a cornfield, and every time you talk about the past, you burn it down, and then you guys have to start over.” So it was really on me. And it wasn’t on my husband at all. It was like, okay, you made a mistake. Let’s move forward. You’re forgiven. Family & Spiritual Pressure Stacey: He was from the same faith background we were from, and also our religious leader at church had referred this counselor. So my husband was stuck on the religious aspect of this religious leader referred him. So he must be who we need to go to. And I kept saying like, this is not helpful. This is damaging. Anne: Let’s talk about the spiritual abuse. So here you are being lied to by your husband and abused psychologically and emotionally. With your counselor, who is a religious counselor, with your bishop, who is your religious leader. So you’re being abused by these men who are trying to tell you what your experience is and trying to coerce you into thinking that you’re not being abused. Did you get it from family? Like, were you facing spiritual abuse on all sides? Stacey: Not necessarily from family, but I have to say that not one family member has ever told me that maybe I should leave my husband. Everyone has brought into the situation, forgive, what would Jesus do. It’s all, repent, read your scriptures, pray, God will get you through this. Anne: What would Jesus do? I’m always thinking. He says, depart from the wicked, is what he says. He says, separate yourselves from wickedness. So, what would Jesus do? He would say, get thee hence. Stacey: Yeah. Anne: So, I need to get myself hence from this. Finding Validation In BTR.ORG Anne: When you found Betrayal Trauma Recovery, is this like a revelation? Stacey: I can’t even tell you, just listening to your podcast and feeling like I’m not crazy. Second of all, I’m not alone. There are other people who have been through this, because it’s such a lonely place to be. There aren’t many people you can talk to. I feel like it’s so hard, even though it is my story. It’s not only my story. So I can’t talk about the truth about him to everyone, because then I tarnish my husband or make him look bad. Like, nobody knows what’s going on. Because you can’t talk about it. So it’s such a lonely place. When my husband is currently lying to me. And then for me, all these therapists will make me feel even worse. So just to have someone I could connect with just to listen to podcasts and feel like I’m not alone. And wow, I’m not crazy. That was so, so big. Anne: I’m so happy you found us. We always want women to find us, because when you’re in that fog of abuse and being abused from all sides. It is so hard to figure out what’s going on. And even if you want to tell people. I’m not saying you should. But let’s just say you got it in your mind. That you were going to get up in your meeting and from the pulpit, say, everyone, I’m being psychologically abused. They wouldn’t believe you. So you can start telling people, but then people just look at you like you’re crazy. So it’s so nice to be part of a community where you’re immediately believed. My Husband Is Lying To Me: The Power Of Community Anne: And not just believed, you don’t even have to explain it. We just get it, it’s so freeing. And then I think the more we validate each other and empower each other, the stronger we get over time. Then it makes it so much easier to see he’s lying all the time. And helps us make decisions about what to do to get to safety. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: The purpose of this podcast is not to proselyte. We’re all here sharing from our own experience. So the point of me talking to her is sharing my own experience and views. And we respect that everyone has different views around here. As you’ve heard on the podcast, women come from all religions, different paradigms, or no religion. Everyone is welcome here. So where are you now in your situation? Do you feel like you’ve established some peace? Or do you feel like you’re still being cycled through the abuse? Stacey: It’s still a cycle. I have established more peace. And definitely recognized my relationship for what it is. I can recognize patterns and behaviors. That before I wouldn’t have recognized what they were. But it’s really hard. It’s so hard. I’ve never been able to make a concrete decision to stay or go. Sometimes I almost wish I could find him in another affair, so that I could have that reason of, okay, I can leave. But right now it’s like this in between, where I feel like exactly what you’re saying earlier. He’s aware of what he needs to do, but he hasn’t fully made that commitment. He still blames me. It’s so hard. I have kids, and now it’s been seven years. Anne: Seven years since the affair? Stacey: Yeah. Anne: Okay. Impact On Children Stacey: And sometimes I think back, wow, what if I would have been strong enough to just leave then? Well, how different would my kids’ lives be? I’ve been so intent on giving them married parents and a family. And then I think back and I’m like, “Wow, maybe I’ve made a big mistake staying together.” He did a good job of lying to me to keep me invested. And modeling this kind of behavior to my kids of what’s okay in a relationship, that’s really hard. So I’m in this limbo where I just never am fully committed to stay or go. Anne: It’s really hard. Many women have prayed to know, do I stay or go? And then many women avoid praying about it because they don’t want an answer. Because either answer is terrible. Number one, if it’s stay, then you have to stay in an abusive place. Number two, is that God telling you to stay? Because I’ve had so many women say, I prayed about it, and God wants me to stay. And I’m thinking, I’m not here to doubt your spiritual impressions. But simultaneously, the abuse messes with women’s minds so much that sometimes they can’t even ferret out what they’re feeling. And what they’re feeling is it feels bad to divorce. So they’re feeling like, I know when I think about divorce, it feels wrong. That must not be right. So I guess God’s telling me to stay married? And with that, I want to say, no, no, no. If the answer you’re getting is this terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. That does not mean God is telling you not to divorce. And the reason why is because divorce will feel bad no matter what. The Impact Of Abuse On Decision Making Anne: I would encourage women to consider that if you get a terrible, awful feeling when you think about divorce. Consider that it is not God telling you not to do it. After you say, okay, no matter what, it’s going to feel awful. Then how do you sort out what God wants you to do? And I have no idea. Stacey: I don’t either. Anne: I just don’t want the abuse to make the decision. Because the abuse is, you’re not good enough, you can’t do it, all these things in your head. That have been in your head forever, that you don’t even realize aren’t even you. They’re just shadows of the abuse from over time. So it’s very, very hard to sort out what to do when it’s hard to tell what is lies and what is the truth. But I do think God will lead, direct and guide us as we make our way toward safety. And if we say, hey, this is what I want. I want a peaceful, happy life. Please guide me and direct me toward that. What do you want me to do? What’s my next step? I think he’ll guide us wherever he wants us to go. But just as a wholesale overview of that bad feeling. You’ll feel that regardless, even if divorce is the best thing for you. So all of you listeners now that are like, well, I was thinking about divorce, now that you said that. As a woman of faith, I believe God has a path and way to safety for you. I just don’t know what that looks like. Using The Living Free Workshop To Tell If He’s Lying Anne: And that’s why I developed the Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop . And this is where we get to take a sigh of relief, that there are safety strategies that work well. And if you know what they are before making these decisions, they can help you get to safety one safe step at a time, and give you tools to see if your husband is lying. The Living Free Workshop helps women realize what type of character their husband has. And thought, boundary, and communication strategies to keep you safe. These strategies work, whether you’re married or divorced, to give you enough space to observe what’s going on. I’ve seen so many miracles in so many women’s lives and in my own life. He’s there for us, but it’s hard and scary. Stacey: Yeah, I like the idea of just kind of praying for the next step, just one step at a time. Anne: Have you reconciled with your sister-in-law, your brother’s ex-wife? Stacey: No, they ended up getting divorced, and I haven’t talked to her in years. I think about it and I’m kind of scared. Just how the relationship was left, but I think I should just go and tell her I’m sorry for the things I assumed and now have such a different view. My brother lied about her so much, and he never took responsibility for his actions. The Blame Game In Relationships The whole reason he used online explicit material was her fault. It was because she didn’t want to have it with him, or she wasn’t interested in it as much as he was. And so he had no other option. It was just what he had to do. And I’ve never heard him say otherwise. Anne: Yeah, I’m so entitled to it that I have to have it. This is my wife’s job. Stacey: Right, and if she won’t do it, it’s entirely her fault. They’ve been divorced ten years now , and nothing’s changed. Anne: Did he get remarried? Stacey: No, neither of them did. Anne: Your brother’s an abuser. Stacey: Yeah, I’ve got them all around me. Now that I can see it for what it is. A lot of the men in my life are, absolutely. Anne: Now that you see that, have you noticed any men that are healthy? Stacey: Sometimes I think, do they even exist? Like, are there mentally stable men out there? I’m trying to think. Anne: That question is also scary. And the reason why that’s scary is that you’re going to need help. And if you don’t have healthy people in your life and can see it for what it is, it’s scary to start doing that on your own. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: Many women, once they figure out what abuse is, they’re think, “I don’t know a man who’s not abusive”. I’m happy to say that I have several men in my life that are not abusive but supportive. And the more I learn about abuse, the more I’ve been able to recognize healthy men. The Reality of Abuse Statistics Anne: Of course, I’m not married to them. So I don’t know for sure. But in terms of my interaction, and then also what their wives say about them. I think there are healthy men out there, is what I’m trying to say. I also think they’re not common. In the state where you and I live, one out of every three women has experienced physical abuse. So then emotional and psychological abuse, even more. The statistics are that eight out of every ten men in our state use it. Stacey: Wow. Anne: So then you’re looking at 8 out of every 10 men as an abuser essentially. Is willing to manipulate, willing to lie, willing to throw somebody under the bus to save their own reputation. Stacey: Scary statistics. Anne: If you could go back and talk to your younger self now that you know what you know from listening to the podcast and being a member of our community, what would you tell her? Stacey: I wish she could see her worth and know that she’s a worthy person, without someone else needing to tell her that she is. I wish I could tell her to recognize red flags, like lies and see them for what they are. There are so many red flags looking back. Even if I saw them, I think deep down it’s like I’ve never felt like I deserved better. That’s sad. When Your Husband Lies: The Value Of Women In Faith Anne: In our faith tradition, we have this theme, we stand up in the young women’s organization and recite. It says, “I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, I strive to become like him. I seek to act upon personal revelation and minister to others in his holy name,I will stand as a witness of God at all times. I will stand as a witness of God at all times, in all things, and in all places.” This is more focused now on service than when we were growing up. Ours was like, I am valuable, yeah. This one actually doesn’t sound like that anymore. So we grew up with this, like I am a valuable daughter of God. Why do you think that didn’t sink in for us? Stacey: Why? I think sometimes if you just recite something over and over, you don’t really spend the time to think about what you’re saying. Anne: I also think it’s how we were treated. Stacey: Oh yeah, absolutely. Anne: So if they say you’re so valuable, but then you’re not actually treated as you’re valuable, like they’re not listening to your opinion. They’re not believing you. They’ll pay for your brother to go to college, but they won’t pay for you to go to college. Your brother can choose a career of any of these 5,000 careers, and you need to pick a teacher. Because then you would have the summers off for your kids, and you need to cook, sew, clean and do laundry. Dealing With Stereotypical Gender Roles & Self Worth Anne: And your duties are relegated to childcare, cleaning, cooking, and he, what does he want to do? He gets to be an engineer, an astronaut, like what are his dreams and hopes? And yours should be laundry, so I don’t know what, you know, like nobody ever says like, what do you want to do with your life? Stacey: No. Anne: Like what are you interested in? Who are you as a person? What talents has God given you apart from he’s given you the ability to be a mother, right? So it’s like were you actually treated like you were valuable, and so in our hearts and minds we’re thinking okay, we’re valued. But we’re only valued if we look like this, or if we do this thing, and if we do it well. And you know what, I’m not super great at cooking brownies. So maybe I’m not as valuable as the congregation brownie baker. I just wonder if that’s part of it. The way that we internalize the culture around us. Oh, this is how you get valued as a woman. If you want it, you’ve got to be cute, you’ve got to be in shape, and you have to play the harp. Stacey: It’s so true, that’s interesting you bring that up, because a week ago at church we had a lesson about things of value, and how we treat things differently on how much we value them. And we came home from church, and I said to my husband, I don’t feel valued. As a wife, as a human. For me, it was such a big epiphany. To just think, I’ve spent these last 20 years with someone who doesn’t value me and constantly lies to me. The Struggle With Misogyny Anne: They don’t cherish us. Stacey: Right, yeah, how differently would my life turn out if I was with someone that valued me, truly? Anne: That’s why we have to learn to value ourselves, because nobody’s doing it for us. Stacey: Right, exactly. Anne: When we do, and we’re like, no, I’m gonna do this thing. Everybody around us is like, “What? No, no, no. You’re not valuing your husband.” I think the heart of this is also just, flat out misogyny. I think that’s the problem with a lot of the addiction recovery situation, is that they’re not acknowledging this super solid bedrock foundation of misogyny. Stacey: Absolutely. Anne: That is so firm, so strong, and so deep that it’s going through the clergy, the therapists, and the community, and it’s making it very difficult for women to value themselves. And then when you start doing it, then you’re the crazy apostate lady. I enjoy that role though. Now in my congregation, I am like the witch lady almost, you know what I mean? Like, don’t let your kids get too close to her. Stacey: How have you been able to keep your faith in your spirituality? That is something I’ve struggled with so much through this. Because I feel like my religion has spiritually manipulated me into feeling like I’m not as much value. I need to forgive, move on. And it’s real. I’ve struggled with my spirituality through this. Is there things that have helped you? Personal Scriptures & Divine Deliverance Anne: In our particular faith, we study from the Bible and also from the Book of Mormon. And I love studying from both of these books about my Savior. And having a tangible book that I can study from and consider what God is telling me has helped me. Sometimes I think like, what am I doing this for? All these men don’t get it. But as I study, I feel God’s love for me. And the other thing that’s interesting is that both of those books are I think misogynistic at their core due to the historical situation, right? Women aren’t writing them. They’re not interpreting them from the perspective of women. And so that’s another thing that I do. Actually, in my own journal, I pray and ask Heavenly Father what He wants to tell me, and then I write down the impressions I receive. And I consider that my own personal scriptures. So even though it’s still on that solid seemingly immovable bedrock of misogyny. I do think the Lord’s words come through. The other thing I love about the scriptures is that God does not like wickedness. Over and over, both the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon stories over and over of deliverance. So the gospel is a gospel of deliverance. The ultimate deliverance would be salvation, returning to live with God. But I also believe He has a deliverance for us here in this life, that he wants us to be delivered from all of the lies and evil. The Call For Women To Seek Deliverance Anne: You know, the Israelites were enslaved by evil, by Pharaoh. And they prayed, and they watched, and they hoped for the time they could be delivered. And then when Moses made that possible, they started moving, they started making their way. At that point, they could have just sat there and been like, oh, it’s too hard to get all of our stuff together. It’s too hard to walk out. Pharaoh’s going to follow us anyway. But they didn’t. They got up, they packed up all their stuff. They started making their way, and Pharaoh followed them. And then the Red Sea parted and they walked through. I mean, can you imagine the faith it took to walk through these two pillars of water? Thinking it could fall on you at any second. I don’t know if I would have been like this, this seems like a bad idea. You know walking through here, but they did it, and I think God is calling women to do that now. I feel like God is calling women to separate themselves from evil. To have faith, pray for deliverance, hope for deliverance, and start making our way out. And when we see that moment, whenever that is, to pack up our stuff metaphorically speaking. Make our way, and then when he parts that Red Sea, we have to walk through that. And for me, that was when my ex got arrested. For some women, they have some kind of epiphany about the extent of the lies. I’m not saying all this leads to divorce. I’m not pro divorce, but I am pro deliverance from evil and I am pro deliverance from abuse. God Delivers Us From Evil Anne: God seems to call us all to consider deliverance. To separate ourselves from evil. We also know in the last days that there’ll be a big separation. A separation of good and evil, the wheat and the tares. I think that’s happening now. And the easiest place to do that is in our own homes to ensure that our home is a place of peace. And that’s confusing, because at church, when they talk about, separate yourself from evil. They never talk about it in terms of your own home. They’re always talking about it as like the evil in the world. So like these evil people out there. And I’m thinking, I’m not worried about the “evil” people out in the world. I’m already separated from them. So I don’t know what you’re talking about. You know, I’m not like hanging out with them. The people in my circle are healthy, happy, honest people. So we’re trying to separate ourselves from evil. We need to look in our own six foot radius. Stacey: Yeah, that’s big. Anne: The Lord has a plan for us. I don’t know what it is exactly. I’m just going to do my part. So I just think, I don’t know the answer to so many of these things. Of course, I don’t. Why would I? But I think that’s what’s helped me. I. keep my faith, because I just can’t imagine God doesn’t have a plan for our deliverance. If He’s had a plan for oppressed people’s delivery since the beginning of time. Stacey: Yeah, that’s something to think about. I like that a lot. It’s good, good stuff. Reconciling Faith & Abuse Anne: I have many friends who have left their faith, and I don’t blame them. There’s no judgment for me, because I think I don’t know why I still believe and you don’t. But like we’re still sisters. Did your sister-in-law leave the church? Stacey: Yes, she did, yeah. Anne: So I think that would be another thing as you attempt to reconcile with her is to have a soft place in your heart for that. And be like, it makes sense that you would do that after all the abuse you suffered from my brother, from my family, from other church members, like, I totally get it. I can see why you would do that. Because that’s going to be a further bridge to reconciliation. Rather than, like, well, I’m staying in the church because I’m more righteous and have more faith than you. After all the misogyny I’ve experienced and all the terrible things, but somehow I’m a better person than you because I can put up with it or something. Like the women who have said, hey, I am done. I’m not going to listen, you shouldn’t get divorced, you’re a bad person, and stuff like that. Like, good for you for standing up for yourself. Good for you for saying, I don’t have to take this anymore. I don’t have to take this abuse. I’m not doing this anymore with a husband who is so full of lies. So in terms of like how I feel about it, I think every woman can make her own way to safety in whatever way that looks like for her. And sometimes, frankly, I’m confused about why I still believe, like I do. Exposure Of Abuse & Lies Anne: I’ve suffered tons of oppression from men for my views, especially now that the podcast is so big and that I seem very threatening to many therapists or other people. And my views seem threatening. Some people see me as some sort of like ultra crazy podcaster that their wife started listening to. And after she started listening to this whack-a-doodle podcaster, our family was ruined. Stacey: Well, what’s interesting about that is yes, of course, the husbands don’t like us finding you. Because we find the truth. We understand the abuse for what it is. And when we confront them and say, ah, I listened to this podcast and she said this. So yeah, my husband is not a fan of the podcast because it totally exposes him for what he is, a lying selfish person, and he doesn’t like that one bit. Anne: I become this crazy like an extremist who’s podcasting from my basement, who, you know, believes in aliens. I’m not, I don’t believe in aliens, but I mean people have that view of it, right? No, actually like this is pretty mainstream, like basic abuse stuff. If you talk to any abuse expert, they’ll be like, yeah, of course. This is not extreme. It’s not out there. There’s nothing about it that is counterculture. I mean, our faith tradition says we do not tolerate abuse. It’s just so, so threatening to an abuser, for a victim to find out the truth about what’s going on. The Power Of Truth & Self-Worth Stacey: Yeah, it blows his cover. They can’t get away with what they used to get away with. It’s confusing to them, because behavior that’s worked in the past doesn’t work anymore. When we can recognize his lies and see what’s being done and how we’re being manipulated, it has changed my relationship. It has since I’ve started listening to the podcast, and being able to recognize it, and feeling more self worth. Because of all the gaslighting I have felt like I’m the crazy one, that there’s no validity to my thoughts and emotions. Being able to recognize that my thoughts, emotions, and feelings are valid. It gives me a lot more strength to stand up and recognize that, yeah, I have worth and my thoughts, they’re not crazy. They’re actually less crazy. They’re the truth. That’s what they are. They’re true. Anne: Well, and from a spiritual perspective, that is God telling you that you are of worth, and listen to that part, listen to how much he loves you and cares about you. And you don’t have to put up with literal chaos and pain coming from someone who enjoys wickedness. We were talking about submission before, like on a previous episode. And essentially, if you listen to your abuser and submit yourself to him. Okay, I’ll be more available or, okay, I’ll lose weight or, okay, I won’t ask you questions. And I’ll, I don’t know, whatever they want, that’s unrighteous. You’re submitting yourself to evil, which God never asked us to do, ever. Strength In Numbers Stacey: Yeah, right. Anne: The cool thing is the more of us there are, the stronger we become, and the less weird it is. And so we just need to keep walking forward. And when one of us gets to safety, it helps all of us. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I appreciate your time. Stacey: It’s been really healing just to be able to talk about it and express myself. I really appreciate it.…

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict – Natalie’s Story 45:58

8 weeks ago45:58

45:58

Even when clergy counsels you to forgive. Even when family sides with an emotionally abusive husband. Rather than focus on emotional abuse vs normal conflict, focus on emotional safety. Emotional safety IS the “treatment”. If you’re wondering if you’re experiencing emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz . Understanding Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict Emotional Abuse: Emotional abuse is manipulating someone’s emotions to exploit them. Because it’s aim is exploitation, it causes significant damage to the victim’s sense of self. Normal Conflict: Normal conflicts are an inevitable part of any relationship. These types of benign conflicts are caused by differences in opinions, values, or expectations, but there’s no exploitation involved. Normal conflicts happen with two healthy people who care about each other and want the best for each other. When a husband uses online explicit material or cheats on his wife, it’s a form of emotional abuse that deeply affects her. Normal conflicts don’t cause infidelty, it’s emotional abuse. How To Seek Safety Many women in the BTR.ORG community share stories of feeling alone—when friends dismiss their accounts of emotional abuse. Sometimes clergy or therapists discount emotional abuse victims, especially when their emotionally abusive husband lies to the clergy or therapist about what’s going on. In many religious communities, marriage is more important than a person’s feelings or emotional safety. Which doesn’t make sense, since the point of marriage is emotional safety. This type of abuse violates the essence of marriage. Choosing safety doesn’t mean ending your marriage. Your husband’s decision to be emotionally abusive has already broken that trust. At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we emphasize that safety encompasses several aspects of life: Physical Safety : Make sure you meet basic needs like shelter, food, and clothing. Removing yourself from immediate emotional threats. Emotional and Psychological Safety : Finding an environment where you can express yourself without fear of judgment or retaliation. Spiritual Safety : Your beliefs are respected and not used against you. Financial Safety : Gaining control over your financial resources and decisions. Sexual Safety : Having autonomy over your own body and choices. Steps To Begin Your Journey: Separate Yourself from Harm : Enroll in The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop to learn what type of abuse you’re dealing with (or even if he’s actually abusive), and then what strategies to use to keep yourself emotionally safe. Surround Yourself with Support : Connect with support groups or communities like Betrayal Trauma Recovery where you can share your story without judgment. Attend a BTR.ORG Group Session TODAY. Practice Self-Care : Focus on basic needs like nutrition, hydration, and sleep to maintain your physical health. Educate Yourself About Abuse : Understanding abuse dynamics can empower you and provide clarity on your situation. Listen to The FREE Betrayal Trauma Recovery Podcast. Transcript: Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict? Anne: Welcome to Betrayal Trauma Recovery. This is Anne. I’m so excited to have Natalie Hoffman on today’s episode. She’s the host of the Flying Free Now podcast. Which is a podcast dedicated to teaching women about emotional and spiritual abuse. She’s also the author of All the Scary Little Gods , and I’m so excited to have her on today. Welcome, Natalie. Natalie: Thank you so much. I’m excited to be here. Anne: You’re amazing. I’ve always appreciated your work. Especially all the interesting and fascinating deconstruction that you do with spiritual abuse. I love it. You’re so smart. And it’s just, it’s fun to have you here. Let’s start by talking about your new book, All the Scary Little Gods . Natalie: I wanted to tell my story. Because I wanted to help women stuck in fundamentalist programming. Who maybe weren’t able to read. Or had the capacity and interest in reading a scholarly type or non-fiction book about deprogramming. In fact, that might even scare them off a little bit. But they might want to read a story about it. So, instead of telling people how to walk this journey, you know, do step one, two, and three. I wanted to show them what a potential journey of deprogramming and deconstructing might look like. Especially for women who weren’t ready to give up their faith. But wanted to figure out how their faith aligned with goodness and love and their core values. I think it was like the English teacher in me saying, show, don’t tell. Anne: I loved that it felt so honest, you are expressing that inner dialogue. Helping women know you’re not crazy. Everybody thinks these things. Discussing All the Scary Little Gods Natalie: Yes, exactly. The first part I wrote from my younger self. So you kind of hear about my childhood from that perspective. And it can be kind of humorous, because as adults read it, we can see what’s going on, but the child is clueless. And then there’s a lot of arguing and disagreement inside of me throughout part two. As to what is the best course of action in any given situation. I was in a very religious environment that was oppressive. But I had bought into it hook, line and sinker because I grew up in an environment like that. Fortunately, I kept journals. And when I read through them, I heard the arguments inside of me. Part of me would argue in my journal and think one way, and then another part of me would think a different way. And so I just started listening to those parts of me and figuring out, like, what were their concerns? I had many different kinds of concerns that were almost contradictory in many ways. I think a lot of us do. Many of us have conflicting thoughts inside of us. And then we think, am I schizophrenic? Am I crazy? What is my problem? Why do I know one thing with my head? But then on the other hand, I keep making these other decisions over here, and I can’t seem to get any traction in my life. Anne: Can you talk about those concepts of deprogramming and also figuring out for yourself if faith is right for you. Deprogramming & Deconstructing Faith Natalie: I feel like it’s a very individual process. If I said, Oh, well, my path led me down this road, and I kept my Christian faith. And so therefore, that’s the right way. Then all I’m doing is repeating what I grew up with. So I think giving yourself freedom to sift through the beliefs you maybe have. And decide which ones have served you in your life and have served the people around you. And actually align with what you choose to believe about a creator God. Or however you want to describe that God and which ones don’t. Because for me, I kind of boiled it down to love. And when I looked at the life of Jesus Christ and what he represented, I decided he represented love and was a deconstructionist. So when we deconstruct, I feel like we’re walking in the footsteps of Jesus, whether we align ourselves with him or not. That’s what we’re doing. I decided that love was the bottom line for me. What about my faith was actually expansive or expanding love in my own life for myself first. Then for my family, and then for those around me into the world, and what things were actually fostering more oppression, more abuse, more control and power over systems. I realized that much of what I believed actually contradicted love. So I removed things from my life and focused on emotional abuse vs normal conflict. I also opened myself up to my children choosing their own paths, with some deciding to completely walk away from their faith. The Concept Of Love In Faith Natalie: I don’t have any fear about that anymore, like I used to. But again, it’s because of what I now believe about God. I was scared of God before. Because the God I worshiped was very little and scary. I bowed down, worshiped, placated and catered to many other little scary gods in my life. That sort of represented that scary God. I needed to get rid of that kind of thinking to truly love myself and other people. And honestly, in order to really love God. I don’t think that when we’re afraid of something, we can enter intimacy and love for that other person. Anne: Or God, right? Absolutely agreed. https://youtu.be/AE3vGT6blBg Natalie: And it’s a way of looking at ourselves that recognizes that we each have different parts inside of us. And those parts have their own beliefs or programming based on our life experiences. Some parts try to prevent pain in our lives by working hard to manage the circumstances. And the people in our lives or to manage us. They might think, for example, that if only we could make people like us or do what we need them to do for us, then we would be happy and avoid pain. Now there are other parts of us that will spring into action if our other parts are unsuccessful in preventing that pain. What they don’t understand is that they want to use some methods to help us get that immediate relief. And learn how tell the difference between emotional abuse and normal conflict. The Bus Analogy To Heal From Emotional Abuse Natalie: When I tried to explain this to my children, I had some teenagers wanting to understand this, and I gave them this analogy of a bus. If you can imagine you are the driver of the bus, and you’re driving your bus through life, wherever you want to go. As the driver of our bus, this is my belief. We are interconnected with our creator, and are whole, complete, and resourced as we are. Our creator didn’t put us in charge of anyone else’s bus, just our own. He didn’t put anyone else in charge of our bus, just us. We are the driver connected and at one with our creator. Though some of us may not know that. The other parts of us are on the bus. I imagined my other parts with all their ideas and thoughts. And about how to manage my life to prevent pain sitting on one side of my bus. Then on the other side of my bus were all my parts ready to fly into action when I felt a negative emotion. Way in the backseat of the bus are younger versions of us hiding and maybe curled up in the fetal position. And these young parts of us carry all our pain, past trauma, and confusion. From all kinds of things that happen in our lives, being bullied at school, to getting lost in the shopping mall as a child. Losing a friend in an accident. Growing up in poverty, or in an overly strict home. Or having a parent with a mental health issue or substance abuse issue. Or anything else that would have caused us harm or emotional pain. Listening To My Own Beliefs & Inner Thoughts Natalie: Sometimes, the parts on our bus disagree about what is the best course of action. They can judge each other. They fight. I used to think there was something wrong with me. Because I had all these opposing thoughts. I couldn’t figure out which ones I should obey. I kind of saw my inner voices, as just more of the little scary gods in my life, shouting orders. And threatening me if I didn’t do everything right. But now that I am aware of this, I’m not afraid of these little parts anymore. I can hear these thoughts in my head, and I think, oh, these are different parts of me. So that’s when I try to slow down and tune in. And listen to what each individual part is trying to communicate to me. I’m not listening to something outside myself. I listen to my own beliefs and inner thoughts. If I don’t ever slow things down and stop to listen, I’m never going to know what’s going on inside of me. And then I won’t have the self awareness that I need to address these issues that I’m struggling with. These parts of us, they also need an empathetic witness to determine if it’s emotional abuse or just regular conflict. And find peace and calm in our bodies. And we are, or can be, that empathetic witness for ourselves. I think it’s miraculous and comforting to know that our creator within us also partners with us inside of our core self to be that empathetic witness. Using Self- Compassion To Determine What’s Going On Natalie: Our opportunity and challenge is to address those parts of us confused and hurting, and move towards those parts in love and compassion. Finding what’s going on, and finding out what they believe. And then loosening up their thinking a little bit. So that those parts of us can experience the warmth, the light, and the love God has for us. Anne: That’s beautiful. It’s such a good way to describe it. I think the way you describe it is way more effective, but I’ve described it like this, it’s competing values. Because you’re like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be obedient, so trying to figure out what the best thing to do is. Natalie: Or even like, I need to be safe, but I also want to be vulnerable and have intimacy with someone. How do you get both things? Well, sometimes that depends on the other person, and figuring that out within yourself is so important. Because you don’t want to make yourself vulnerable to someone who isn’t safe to be around. Anne: Unfortunately, religion didn’t teach us about safety. They taught us about evil in a way that didn’t help us be safe. I think about that a lot, because there are so many people checking the religious boxes who are actually evil. They’re not safe at all. And yet they’re religious leaders, or they’re in that power over dynamic that is so harmful. And so deconstructing all that takes a long time, and it takes listening to yourself. Natalie: And we’re taught that we can’t trust ourselves. It’s interesting using the word safety. Why Do Religious Women Struggle To Identify Abuse? Natalie: We’re taught to glorify suffering. So when you’re not safe, you are suffering. So it’s almost like you’re glorifying being in a state of unsafety and hyper arousal to trauma, because that’s the spiritual thing to do. And of course, if you think that’s a problem, then you must not trust God. I just think many beliefs have been put in place by people who have really twisted the Bible. Or twisted religious thoughts to serve themselves and enable them to abuse people. I started connecting some dots for myself in my own life when I was diagnosed with complex post traumatic stress disorder. The first dot I connected was my understanding of what CPTSD was, and then how I ended up having it. And there are three things that can trigger CPTSD. One is an uneven power dynamic. Which happens with women of faith in abusive marriages. There’s an uneven power dynamic when you are in a marriage with someone who is powering over you and abusing you. And then the second thing that can cause C PTSD is repetitive, prolonged trauma. So it’s not just one incident. It’s years and years of invalidation, criticism, gaslighting, all that kind of stuff happening over a period of time. Death by a million cuts, some people will say, or a million bee stings. And then the third part is, the perception that there is no escape. A lot of Christian women actually could get out, but they don’t think they can. Because they’ve been programmed to believe they’re not allowed to get a divorce. So that was dot number one. The Importance Of An Empathetic Witness Natalie: The second dot, the other missing piece in my life was an empathetic witness to my experiences. Nobody believed me. I felt like I was in a glass bubble for most of my life, suffocating, screaming and banging on the glass for someone to see me. And hear me and let me out. And people would just walk right by and completely ignore me. So there’s a lot of deflection and spiritualizing of abuse and pain in Christian circles. And there’s this theology too, in many Christian circles, that men have rights and privileges that women don’t have. And also that women are often blamed for many things, like being a stumbling block for men with our bodies. Or trying to emasculate men simply because we might have a different opinion or thought. Or maybe we could be more educated than them, or have a better idea than they do. And then we’re accused of emasculating men. Anne: Heaven forbid, I was accused of emasculating my ex, so yes. Natalie: So dehumanizing. I think the only way out of this mess is for the individual woman to find her own voice, power, and autonomy. And to take that back to herself. I believe now that we do that by turning toward ourselves and becoming that empathetic witness that we have needed our entire lives. This is how we heal our inner world. There’s also a theme throughout my life of missing a mother to show me what this looks like. I thought I had a wonderful mother, bizarrely. But as it turned out, she was never able to heal herself. So she ended up unable to see, hear or validate my perspective. Determining Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict: Listen To The Spirit Within Natalie: So part of my healing was learning how to actually be that mother to myself. Anne: It’s confusing. At church on Sunday, someone said 10 things Jesus never said. And she proceeded to say, Listen to yourself is one of the things Jesus never said. He said, listen to the Spirit. As I’m sitting there, I’m thinking, how do I know if it’s emotional abuse if I agree with both things? I want to listen to the Spirit, but the Spirit is my inner voice. The Spirit is leading me to truth. And to tell people, don’t listen to yourself, listen to God. But then who do they want God to be? The leader of the church who’s saying, no, no, no, keep your mouth shut, sit down. Or the actual Spirit inside of you that tells you what’s right for you. Sometimes it gets so complex as a believer to think, well, is this me? Is this God? Is this something else? Can you talk about the conflict women feel that maybe their inner voice is a healthy, safe person to follow? Especially if they’re getting that type of spiritual abuse. Natalie: You know, what is the motivation behind teaching something specific like that? Yes, there’s some truth, but also someone can teach something and have an ulterior motive or reason. Maybe they aren’t even aware of it. So sometimes calling out people’s motives is important. When Jesus left the earth, he said, “Don’t worry, I’m going to give you a gift.” And it wasn’t the Bible. The gift he promised was the Holy Spirit. He said, “I’m going to give you a helper who’s going to guide you in all things.” Each person was given the Holy Spirit inside of them. Partnering With God In Decision Making Natalie: So I tell people, God is partnering with you in your core. You’re never going to get it all right, because you’ve got different parts of you and that are wounded. As they should be in this world. People sometimes ask me, why is it that I have all this trouble in the way I think? Sometimes I make choices I don’t want to make. And I’m like, that’s because you’re just a normal human being. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re normal. And God didn’t say, I’m going to create all these gods and goddesses. He created humans. And so what is that amazing thing that happens when we can partner with God, our Creator, in making decisions? And moving through life, and also be open to making mistakes. I’ve got some new grandchildren. They’re all under one. My son had triplets, and then my daughter had a baby at the same time. So I’ve got these four babies. They’re all almost one. So they’re learning how to crawl and stand. Let’s say I was to take my granddaughter, we were going to go in the backyard and hang out. If she tried to walk and she fell, or she tried to climb over something too hard for her to climb over, I’m not gonna berate her. And say, I can’t believe you tried to do that, that’s so ridiculous. I’m also not gonna hold her and put her down and let her explore. And make her own decisions about, like, I wanna look at this flower, I wanna climb over this rock. Learning & Growing Through Mistakes Natalie: As a good grandma, I’m gonna love her and put her down and let her explore. And I’m going to be with her. I’m going to be here to catch her when she falls. But our kids will fall off their bikes. They’re going to make mistakes. They’re going to date someone who’s the wrong person, and end up getting their heartbroken. That’s part of living this life on earth. And God’s not up there going, okay, you’re my puppet. I’m going to tell you where to go and what to do. And if you do everything exactly, as I say, nothing bad will happen to you. And that’s how everyone will know that you are a good Christian. You will make all the right decisions. You will know exactly what decision to make when you come to a fork in the road. That’s not true. None of that is true. I wouldn’t have ever said that or articulated it like that. But honestly, that’s what I believed. And that is very baffling, and it doesn’t make any sense. And it does bring a lot of shame then, because when you make a mistake. Like for example, I married someone I thought God wanted me to marry. And it turns out it was a very, very bad decision, but God was with me through all of it. And I don’t look back at that and go, “God, why did you make me do that?” God didn’t make me do that. I made that choice myself based on what I had been programmed to believe about marriage, about my job as a godly person, and what I needed to do to fulfill that role. And so I made a choice based on my understanding at that time. How To Heal From Emotional Abuse vs Normal Conflict Natalie: And then 25 years later, I decided to divorce him based on my more updated understanding. Of how life works, you know, 25 years later, I’ve told my kids, you’re going to make mistakes. You’re going to buy the wrong house that loses its value, make a bad investment, take a bad job or possibly marry the wrong person. But that’s okay. That’s part of God allowing you this amazing, beautiful privilege of living a life. And you also get to change your mind and pivot any time you need to. And we can’t always pivot out of everything, but we can pivot out of many things. Sometimes when a hurricane, tornado or fire comes through and destroys the community. You will see that 10 years later, that community has been rebuilt. It looks different. It’s not the same community anymore. We can rebuild our lives and we can start over when we do make mistakes. And I think God is all in on all of that. Anne: Yeah, that’s the reason we came here to learn and grow. Natalie: Exactly. Anne: just like your granddaughter. You can’t do it without doing it. Natalie: That’s exactly right. Anne: Speaking about learning and growing, one of my jobs and your jobs as a podcaster is to educate people about spiritual and emotional abuse. There are two parts. There’s the part where you’re spiritually and emotionally abused, and you don’t know that you are and your body’s reacting to that. And then there’s your reactions after you’re educated about it now that you know what you’re looking at. Understanding Reactions To Abuse Anne: How do our bodies react when faced with spiritual or emotional abuse, maybe in both those scenarios ? Natalie: I began to look back to my experiences growing up, as well as my 25 year marriage to an emotionally and spiritually abusive man. I finally understood why I reacted in so many different ways to those experiences, which is why I decided to write my book. I wanted to allow those different parts to tell a portion of my story. One of the biggest things I hear Christian women saying about their marriages and lives is that they’re so confused. If we’re confused, we can’t problem solve. We have to know what the problem is, or we’re not going to find a solution. So I learned that I was confused. Because there were different parts of me who had different ways of thinking. So one part of me minimized it. I call her Rosie. One part of me exaggerated it and believed I was doomed, and my children were all doomed. Another part of me spiritualized it and viewed it as a badge of honor to be an abuse victim for Jesus. Anne: Wow. I’ve never heard that before, and I have to say it. Okay, this is Natalie’s, but I’m quoting her, “an abuse victim for Jesus.” That is amazing. Natalie: I know, it’s really sad. It’s really sad. Anne: I just, there’s so many people who are an abuse victim for Jesus. Natalie: They have that badge and… Anne: Yeah. The Role of “Rude” In Self-Liberation Natalie: Wear it with pride. Yeah, I had this other part, I call her my rude part, and she’s my truth teller. My mother used to tell me I was rude, and when I became a teenager, I started seeing things for what they were, and started calling them out. And ooh, I would get in bad trouble for that. But my mom would tell me that I was rude. But rude showed up regularly with her analysis of what happened. All my other parts outnumbered rude. And I had been programmed, you know, from childhood to believe that rude was my rebellious, sinful part. Don’t listen to that voice. You know, rude will get me into trouble, but rude was ultimately the part of me inside of myself who set me free in many ways. So how do our bodies react? Well, I think that depending on which part of us were blended or flooded with at any given time, our body’s going to react that way. So after an abuse incident, like if my husband had just gotten done, telling me everything was my fault. That I was a horrible person, basically projecting all the things he did onto me. My melancholy part would just want to die. I had so much self loathing. I could not please my husband. He insisted everything was my fault, and my experiences were all in my head. So I just thought I was going crazy, and the pain in my body was so deep and dark. And hurts like physically hurt. I often wished I could just die because it hurt so bad. Living With Anxiety & Overperformance When It’s Emotional Abuse Natalie: But then I had this other part of me, I call it freaked, and my freaked part had anxiety about everything. So what that part does in my body is it’s constantly on an adrenaline high. It makes me want to over-perform to please everyone, so they won’t criticize or get angry at me. So I get up in the morning and I’m like, I got to make sure the house is clean. I make all these phone calls, and take a meal to these people. And I got to make sure I homeschool my kids just right. All those things, that was my freaked part. That’s how freaked was showing up in my body. After an abuse incident, my Rosie part would always kick in. And tell me all the things I had to be thankful for, and that I should believe the best. I should forgive and forget. And she would encourage another part of me to shut down my memory, and to this day, I have lost huge chunks of my memory. The only reason I could write a book was because I kept journals during that time. Although I would tear out pages that described the abuse in detail, which is unfortunate. Because it would have been better to have more details. I believe love kept no record of wrongs, and I loved my husband. So I would write down details as soon as it would happen. Then I would tear those out, but Rosie would help, so I experienced some relief almost from the pain. And yeah, all those parts, they all played a role, not that I was keeping myself in a cycle. Rooted Beliefs & Programming Natalie: It’s those rooted beliefs that other people had downloaded into me. Anne: I was about to respectfully maybe disagree. Not that I want to disagree with you, because I would like to validate you. But I also was like, well, wait a minute. Was it really you? Or was it what you had been programmed to believe? Natalie: Absolutely, that’s a good way to distinguish it. They were my beliefs, but they had been programmed into me. It would be like a science fiction thing, where you take a new baby, and you plug these little things into their brain. And you download it like a computer. That baby will grow up, and it will do all the behaviors it was programmed to do. The only way that person will be set free is if he can access help that takes that old program out and puts in a new program. Anne: Because both of us, in our jobs, what we do is to help women see. To give them permission to know that it’s okay to think that thing they’re pushing against. Natalie: That’s exactly it, because we have these parts that are like, I can’t believe you think that. Like, why would you think that? That’s so dumb to think that, or I can’t believe you stay. It’s so dumb that you stay. No, there are good reasons why those younger parts of us believe those things. Really good reasons that number one, they were programmed to believe them. But also, especially when you’re a child, you are using strategies as a child to simply survive. You can’t just leave your family, you can’t divorce your parents. You rely and depend on them for your world. Childhood Programming & Survival Natalie: And children tend to view themselves as the problem. And they tend to view their parents as, you know, the gods and the parents know everything. And so if the parents project their own crap on the child or use the child in different ways. The child will think that’s what the child’s role is. And those child parts are still inside of you, fully believing those things. If our adult self looks at those parts and goes, well, that’s dumb. I don’t know why you think that. And we have all this inner self loathing, the parts will double down inside of us and go, yup, see, I knew it. I have to hang on to this. I have to learn how to identify emotional abuse. We stay because we’re scared to death of rocking the boat. We’re scared to death of getting kicked out of all the love circles. We believe that if we get kicked out, we will die. That’s what those parts of us believe. And those are good reasons to stay. We believe something bad could happen to our children. A good reason to stay. We have good reasons for believing what we believe. So loosening up, like you said, we both do this work of loosening up those beliefs. They’re beliefs that younger parts of us have inside of us. But if you can move towards those beliefs and understand them and go, it makes total sense why you’d think that and have compassion and curiosity. Knowing If It’s Emotional Abuse: Loosening Up Beliefs Natalie: And I wonder where that belief came from. And I wonder where you learned that. And I wonder how it’s reinforced throughout your life. That’s the way it should be. And I wonder if there are other ways we could look at this that might be more helpful, or that might actually set you free or be more life giving for you. Anne: It’s so exciting to see women think about things differently in a way that is good. And when I say in a way that is good, we’ve been programmed to think that the way we’re thinking about, like divorce, maybe. Or just separating yourself from harm, or maybe even just not making bread. You don’t have to make bread. Some women, the second you give them permission, hear something and realize, oh, I didn’t know I didn’t have to do that. Natalie: Yeah, when I was in the thick of living in an abusive world all around me, I was gaslit and programmed with the idea that there was something fundamentally wrong with me. So of course, there was this tremendous shame and confusion in my body, and I couldn’t make sense of the contradictory beliefs. I’m trying to figure it out. I realized that these beliefs were not who I was. They weren’t my identity, but rather long held programming that I acquired through no fault of my own , that’s when I could create some distance between me and these parts of me that held these beliefs. Excommunication & Loss Natalie: And I could look at them with compassion and curiosity and move toward them. Like we mentioned before, just asking them questions about when they started believing that thing, and why they hold on to that belief, and how they think that belief is keeping me safe. So for example, if I hung on to this belief that there was something wrong with me. Then when someone disagreed with me or didn’t like me, I could make it about me. Well, that’s because there’s something wrong with me. And then I could continue to reach out to them and give them their way. And if I did that, they would like me and allow me to be in their love circle. I mean, it’s so twisted. But I realized. That’s what I actually do in this dynamic. Not even realizing it might be emotional abuse. But if I let go of that belief that there was something wrong with me. Well, that kind of scared me, because if I did that, I might just stand up for what I believed. I might stop giving them their way, and that would get me into deep, deep trouble with other people. And they might kick me out. And then if that happened, I would die. There was a part of me that truly believed I would not survive it if I was kicked out. That is exactly what ultimately happened when I stopped obeying everyone around me. I was maligned, lied about, talked about and lost my reputation, my credibility. And then I was excommunicated from my church and my family of origin hasn’t talked to me for five years. Isolation From Family Natalie: So to this day, I can’t even go to a funeral for an extended family member. This recently happened, without people turning away from me and shunning me. Because they believe only God knows what about me. I don’t even know that I had to be willing to lose all those scary little gods in my life to find a big loving creator God. And I also had to lose all the scary little people in my life in order to find a woman, myself, named Natalie. The best decision ever, but man, was it painful? Anne: I love that you bring that up. You are searching to figure out what’s going on. Like you lost so much, but would say you feel better? Natalie: Oh yeah. Anne: One of the things I talk about is that I live in the mountains of Utah. And I love to ski, and there’s a pitch on any run where it looks like a cliff. And you have to get kind of close to the edge of that pitch to realize it’s not a cliff. It’s just the rest of the slope, and you can ski down it. That happens in hiking too. You get to it and you think, oh, I can’t get close to that. It’s a cliff. But then if you look over, you realize, Oh no, it’s just a slope. It’s fine. It’s okay. Come look over the pitch. You’re going to be safe. The nightmare scenario that you were just terrified of being excommunicated, having everyone think you’re terrible. That happened, and yet it was what set you free. Would you mind talking about that for a little bit? Finding Freedom Outside The Sandbox Natalie: Yeah. That analogy is so beautiful. I love it. That perfectly describes my experience with this. A lot of our fear is just fear of the unknown, but once you actually walk through it daily, it definitely hurts. It’s not like it doesn’t hurt, but at least I found it wasn’t as bad as I thought, as far as it didn’t kill me. It was painful, but when I was in that environment, it was almost like I thought that was the whole world. I had to get out of it to realize how… How I describe it is. Imagine an ocean with a big beach, where you can look as far to the right as you want and as far to the left as you want. All you can see is the horizon. So it just goes on forever. It seems like on the beach, even. And then imagine the church that kicked me out is a little sandbox on one little part of the beach. That’s maybe four feet by four feet. And there’s some kids playing in that sandbox. And that was my church. I thought when I was in the sandbox with the kids, that was the world. And when I got kicked out and started wandering on this big beach, feeling lost and alone. What I discovered is that there are all kinds of beautiful people on the beach that were never in that sandbox. And I am free and I don’t have a sandbox anymore. Now I’ve got miles and miles and miles of beach to explore and other people in the world to get to know. And they don’t all have the same beliefs as what the people in my sandbox had. The Gift Of Being Disliked Natalie: And there’s so much relief. I was under so much pressure and stress to be someone I wasn’t when I was in that sandbox. And there was so much threatening. If you do this, then this is what’s going to happen to you. You better do it our way. You better do, A, B, and C. And so there’s always that fear. Once I got out on the beach, I could run and play. The Bible in Psalms, it talks about setting our feet in spacious places. That’s what I felt like God did. He plucked me out of that sandbox and set my feet in spacious places that I could run and be free. And experience more of life than ever. The people always told me never to get out of the in the sandbox. There’s danger out there. It was just manipulation, right, and lies. And then when they finally just kicked me out. It was like the best thing ever happened to me. I could figure out if it was emotional abuse or just normal conflict. Anne: I’ve thought about that a lot with people who don’t like me. And I’m like, thank you. I don’t have to worry about how I am around you or anything. If you don’t like me, that’s a gift to me. I mean, I’ve come to this now. I’m not saying I’ve been like this forever, but it’s very, like, freeing. Instead of them saying, well, I’m not going to like you unless you do, you know, this, this, and this. Natalie: Right. Cause then you can just be like, okay, then don’t like me. Anne: Yeah! Natalie: It’s a free world. Anne: Great. Problem solved, right? Aligning Meditation With Christian Faith Anne: I created The BTR.ORG Meditation Workshop , which has 13 meditations that I wrote specifically for abuse victims. I was concerned because I’m Christian. But some Christian faiths don’t think meditation will be good for people and they’re worried about it. The meditations I wrote are faith neutral. And if people want to imagine the white light as Christ, they can do that or not. Or, you know, whatever they want to do. I sampled them with Christian women. Because I was rightfully concerned that it might offend them or conflict maybe, but as they took it, they were like, no, this was awesome. They thought it helped them learn how to figure out what’s happening. It completely fit in with my faith, even though I left the meditations spiritually neutral. How does this align with the Christian faith for Christians out there who are maybe nervous about trying something different? Especially if they’ve been spiritually abused. Natalie: The Christian faith should be about love. I know that’s not what we’re seeing in today’s modern and warped version of it. It’s full of hate and vitriol, and grabbing for power and control. Christianity is after Jesus Christ. He modeled something very different. Because he moved toward the outcasts and the lepers, and the sick and the poor. He offered peace, forgiveness, and grace. He promised to love us and never leave us or forsake us. So Christianity, which is supposed to be this religion that walks in the footsteps of Jesus, should look like that, right? Well, what I discovered and talk about in the last part of my book is that just because people don’t understand the way of Christ doesn’t mean that way isn’t available to us. Healing Emotional Abuse Through Compassionate Identification Natalie: And my job isn’t to make other people follow rules or do what I think they should do. My job is to simply walk with Christ myself. And the starting place for that is within me. So instead of criticizing, hating on, beating up and running away from the parts inside of me who carry darker beliefs. Or proclivities due to their woundedness or the burdens they carry. I have the opportunity to be like Christ. Who I say I follow and move toward those darker beliefs parts of me, with love, compassion and empathy. When I do that, those parts inside of me, unburdened from the beliefs that keep them trapped in fear and shame. Then they enter the light and love of God. The Bible says love casts out fear. So when we’re afraid. That’s our opportunity to figure out why am I afraid and where am I missing love? Like, where do I need to show myself some love? How can I get into safe spaces where I can experience freedom, joy, and peace? How can we hold others accountable who are imprisoning and abusing other human beings? Especially how can we offer dignity to ourselves and other human beings wherever they’re on their journey? That’s what I do, this is what you’re doing. We focus on healing that relationship that we have with our own lost and wounded parts first. And then when they heal, everything changes. Anne: In so many cases, the entire system oppresses a woman abuse victim. She is not receiving validation, love, or freedom from oppression. Christ’s Mission Against Oppression Anne: Which is what Christ came to do. I mean, he’s our Savior. I say all the time, he is the deliverer, the savior. He did not come to oppress anyone, he came to save them and deliver them from oppression. He would want them to know what’s going on. Natalie: If we’re Christians, we’re as representatives in the world. Where we’re not doing that is where we have deviated from the Christian faith. In my opinion. Anne: I totally agree. Many people, mainly women, are oppressed. I worry about that. They submit because they’re asked to, but what they’re really submitting to is not God, it’s not goodness. They’re submitting to evil, and it freaks me out. Natalie: I believe if Christianity supported women getting out of abusive relationships. That would potentially force men to be the people God created them to be. But they won’t. As long as they’re not held accountable, as long as we’re just going to blame the victims, and we’re going to enable the abusers. And enable men to have these entitlement beliefs that women should meet their needs. So women should do everything they need. The men will never heal, and the women will always suffer. And run that risk of being in a bad relationship and having no support to get out. Anne: If their goal is to be an exploiter and not fill the measure of their creation, they’ve nailed it. Natalie: Yes. Anne: But I don’t think that’s what God intended for them. Natalie: No. How To Heal From Emotional Abuse The Growing Movement For Change Anne: And I think there are many amazing spiritual leaders who would agree with us. Natalie: Oh, absolutely. I think it is growing. Natalie: I know this wasn’t a Christian movement, but the me too movement opened up the conversation and it exploded. And now there are all kinds of nuanced conversations happening all over the place. Because Christians like us are standing up and going, this has to stop, and we’re calling it out. We have to know how to identify emotional abuse, and not just pass it off as everyday conflict. It has to start on the ground level with individuals. You know, hopefully we’ll see more and more women standing up and going. I’m not going to do this anymore, but it has to happen from the top down as well. And I don’t know what’s happening up there. That’s not my calling, but I definitely think there’s work to be done. Anne: I was going to say, are you sure Natalie, maybe starting a seminary? I just got revelation for you. I’m kidding. Natalie: I’ll think about that. Anne: Well, thank you so much, Natalie. I appreciate you coming on today.…

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

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The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms – When You Can’t Get The Right Help 40:18

9 weeks ago40:18

40:18

Do you have betrayal trauma symptoms? Did any professional that you went to help you understand that you are a victim of emotional and psychological abuse? If not, you’re not the only one. Attend one of our Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group Sessions to join a community of women who can validate and support you. Most Professionals Miss Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Tragically, family, friends, clergy, and therapists further abuse victims. When they don’t recognize that betrayal trauma symptoms are caused by emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. “That was the hardest part of my betrayal trauma symptoms. I felt like I was screaming, waving my arms for help, going to everyone I could think of, from clergy to therapists, and no one helped me.” Anne Blythe, Founder of BTR.ORG Women With Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Are Victims Of Abuse Many women in our community share that they did not understand where the betrayal trauma symptoms were coming from. They thought it was from the discovery of their husband’s infidelity or pornography use, and it was. But they didn’t know that his infidelity and use signaled that he was emotionally and psychologically abusive. To know if you’re a victim of emotional abuse, take our free emotional abuse quiz . What Are Common Betrayal Trauma Symptoms? Wondering if you are in betrayal trauma? Here are a few of the most common symptoms: Grief Numbness Rage Depression Insomnia and other sleep issues Difficulty eating or overeating Anxiety Terror Paranoia Headaches Body aches and pains At Betrayal Trauma Recovery, we understand how to help you heal from betrayal trauma symptoms . Enroll in The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Living Free Workshop to determine your husband’s true character. Transcript: The Truth About Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Anne: I have Kathy or Justice Jones on today’s episode. She is a justice advocate who promotes outside the box solutions. And best practice responses to families living under the chronic oppression of abusers and counter-parents. I invited her here because the truth is that domestic abuse causes betrayal trauma symptoms. So we need to discuss domestic abuse and how professionals are missing it. Especially betrayal trauma professionals. They’re not identifying the symptoms of betrayal trauma as responses to emotional and psychological abuse, and coercion. So we’re going to talk about that today. Welcome Kathy. Kathy: Thank you for having me. Anne: Listeners to my podcast who have experienced this understand on a deeply personal level. How the entire system does not understand emotional and psychological abuse and coercion. And the continued abuse post separation or post divorce. So let’s look at the system as a whole, including court professionals, therapists, all the people involved. When you say trauma responsive professionals, do you mean people who actually really get it or people who just say they get it? And can you also talk about the difference between those two things? Kathy: Yes, certainly. The System’s Failure To Recognize Abuse Kathy: I’ve been hearing the code word “trauma informed” probably for about 10 years in national conferences and the like. It quickly became apparent to me that just because you’re trauma informed, it doesn’t mean you’re responsive. It doesn’t mean you take the knowledge imparted to you and actually work towards the benefit and healing of the survivor. Meaning that if you’re a trauma informed professional, trauma informed is not enough. Even in your good intentions, you may be acting in ways or putting the survivor in situations that actually aggravate or re-traumatize that victim. Anne: From my perspective, there are so many so-called “betrayal trauma therapists.” Or even addiction recovery therapists, or other therapists who say they’re trauma informed. But they don’t understand anything about abuse and abuse dynamics. And so their counsel to the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms ends up harming the victim more. Kathy: So the first story I have for you is eight years ago. I worked at my local domestic violence crisis center, and was invited to become part of a local mental health program. Part of their invitation was so that I could inform their practices to do domestic violence related issues better than what they knew. It was a real opportunity for me. And the first training I provided for these folks, they were wonderful people, but it became clear they did not know enough about domestic violence, counter-parenting, and just any issue related to family violence. Lack Of Training In Domestic Abuse Kathy: So I was compelled to ask the question of the 15 people in the room. They had well over 300 years total of real time practice working with families, and they could only come up with maybe 15 hours of domestic violence or family violence training. And that included their college career. And I was horrified. Anne: That’s very typical, or even less than that. Kathy: Even less than that. I committed myself that day to making sure this particular practice got a lot more training than they had. In fact, they asked me to do a training session for mental health practitioners across the state of New Hampshire. But still, it was not enough to address the dearth of information that goes into the programming for mental health practitioners. Another eye opening incident. I was conducting a retreat, and we asked the participants, there were about 24 of them in the room. How many of you have been into counseling for addressing the domestic violence issues and betrayal trauma symptoms you were dealing with? 23 of those women raised their hands. And then I said, I’d like to ask, how many of you were actually helped by that counseling? And none of them raised their hands. Then they started sharing stories about how their counselor actually encouraged them to stay in the abuse. To try a little harder, and stay a little longer. Anne: Communicate a little better. Kathy: Yeah, communicate a little better. Anne: Tell them what your boundaries are. Tell them what you expect. The Danger Of Couples Therapy In Treating Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Kathy: What was most interesting was that there were women in that room who were also mental health practitioners. And they were really distressed by the line of questioning. And eventually, after conversations after the retreat, one of them got back to me and said, like, that was eye opening for me. Even though she was one of the people acknowledging, hey, mental health practitioners didn’t help me with betrayal trauma symptoms. They, in fact, contributed to my pain. Anne: I’ve found that therapists in general do not understand this. When someone goes in for help, they do not approach it from the right angle, especially couples therapy. Kathy: Couples therapy should not even be a thing. As soon as domestic violence is identified, an ethical mental health practitioner will say, “I’m sorry, I cannot provide services in a conjoined therapeutic session. We need to do this separately.” Anne: Even if it’s separate, they still don’t understand. Like sometimes that same therapist will relay information from the victim to the perpetrator. Like, Hey, she doesn’t like it when you yada, yada, which puts her in further danger. Kathy: Absolutely, yep. Anne: It’s so, so dangerous. The emotional and psychological abuse and the coercion piece are so misunderstood that. I’m concerned about anyone going to therapy, not that I’m like anti-therapy, that’s not what I’m trying to say. But for victims of abuse, it’s not the right way to go if they don’t understand they’re being abused. Because they don’t understand themselves. And because the therapist only knows what they see, they’re not going to help that victim identify that they are being abused. Kathy: Well, again, I can share another story. When Therapy Makes Things Worse Kathy: This one, my personal account where I was being abused by my ex-husband and decided to go into couples therapy. Because that was what I was encouraged to do. But my ex-husband wouldn’t go. Because, you know, I was the one who had all the problems. And I went anyway, it was with a couple who provided the therapy. And they were, again, lovely people, but their words created a lot of damage. One of the things they said to me, even after I disclosed that my ex-husband dumped hot spaghetti sauce on me. Because I had made spaghetti for dinner instead of pork chops. They said, well, you need to confess your sins to him and ask him for his forgiveness. And I was like, what? And that was the last time I ever went for counseling. Again, like you, I’m not anti-counseling, but mental health practitioners must understand domestic violence. Before they should provide any level of care for domestic violence and assault, coercion, and coercive control victims. Anne: Now, many listeners come to this podcast because their husband uses online explicit material, or has an affair. And they find out that he’s been lying and gaslighting. So when someone, like a guest, or when I use the term domestic violence. They are like, oh, well, this must not be for me, because this isn’t a domestic violence situation. So I tend to use the word domestic abuse to help them understand that it is an abuse issue. But also, it’s a violence issue. Emotional & Psychological Violence The Broader Scope Of Domestic Abuse Anne: It’s emotionally and psychologically violent. Kathy: Yep. Anne: In Betrayal Trauma Recovery Group , we don’t specialize in physical violence per se, but physical violence will never happen in a vacuum. It’s always going to be preceded by emotional and psychological abuse. So it is under the umbrella of domestic violence. Women who are here and hearing this word. If you’re like, he doesn’t punch me in the face. This isn’t a domestic violence issue. It might be an abuse issue, it is a domestic violence issue. It is under that umbrella, and it is violence in emotional and psychological ways. Kathy: Absolutely, 100%. The thing that I would say to those women who say that to themselves. The reason why you may not have seen physical violence yet is because the emotional and non-physical forms of violence he’s using against you are working. They’re doing what he wants them to do. Every single abuser is absolutely 100% capable of utilizing that more physical form of violence to maintain their dominance in a relationship. I would say between 60 and 65 percent of the women I work with have not experienced severe physical violence. And when I say severe, I’m talking about something other than pushing or pulling. Anne: Even just standing over them. Kathy: Punching a wall, throwing things, breaking the victim’s things. Those are all physical forms of violence. None of them are okay, by the way. I’m not trying to minimize the effect of those, but I’m saying, societally, we don’t think it’s a big deal. Until these abusers punch us in the eyes, and there’s a lot more that comes before that that is part of domestic violence. The Role Of Mental Health Professionals In Treating Betrayal Trauma Symptoms Kathy: Even though mental health professionals were the reason to do training. I have to say to my shame and regret that domestic violence crisis centers were another reason why. And police departments, judges, and guardians ad litem, the whole system of people out there were the reasons why. But the other reason was that I needed to succinctly lay out what are trauma informed practices. Even though I’m certain there are way more trauma informed practices. I tried to boil it down to these ten. What trauma survivors need to feel safe. As far as I’m concerned, it’s the most courageous act that any survivor can do is become vulnerable enough to say to somebody else, I need help. I can’t do this alone. Anne: And then that vulnerable moment having the trauma compounded is so difficult. It’s happened to so many of us here at Betrayal Trauma Recovery. Which is exactly why I started Betrayal Trauma Recovery . I spent seven years with my emotionally and psychologically abusive ex in addiction recovery. No one said anything about abuse. Kathy: I’m really sorry. Anne: For seven years, I’m suffering the symptoms of betrayal trauma under the care of so-called therapeutic professionals. Not knowing that I was being abused. Not only by my ex, but also by proxy, yeah, by the system. It was so awful. Kathy: I’m really sorry that happened to you. Anne: Well, and that’s why I thought, I’ve got to get the word out. Don’t go down any other route until you know about abuse. Once you understand abuse well, and you can say, okay, this isn’t abuse. So maybe I can go to therapy, then you’d be in okay shape. The Danger Of Misguided Therapy Anne: But if you go there first without knowing about abuse, they’re not going to help you understand it in general. Maybe someone will help. Luckily, some guests on this podcast shared how they went to a particular therapist and received help. So that’s good. I’m not trying to say everybody’s like that. Kathy: And I’m so happy to hear those successful stories when they happen. I’m like, yeah, Anne: I don’t know. Kathy: But it’s very few and far between. Anne: It is. And I do not want to discount your list. But I think it’s interesting how some people are like, well, I went to this training. And you could succinctly spell out what needs to happen or a list of what needs to happen. And the practitioner or court professional or helper thinks, okay, I got it. No problem. And then they talked to the victim and they think, oh, well, this doesn’t apply to her because… Kathy: She’s not a victim. Anne: Because he’s telling me this isn’t what’s going on. And immediately, nothing they just learned is helpful to her. So you just need people who have been through it. Because training doesn’t help professionals either. If they don’t truly understand it, they can’t get past his manipulation. Kathy: It’s an important point, because here’s the thing. Anytime you see a list like this, it shouldn’t be a check off. Of, yep, I did that, yep, I did that, yep, I did that. These lists should be utilized to take a good, long, hard look at how you conduct yourself. With, for instance, a trauma survivor, and say, will these people say these things about me? Listening Without Blame Or Judgment Kathy: This is about getting professionals to think about this trauma survivor. I just worked with someone who identified herself as a trauma survivor. What is she gonna say about me on this app? Anne: The first item on your list. It’s not funny, but I’m smiling to myself a little bit, and I’ll tell you why. It says, listen to adult or child victims without blame or judgment. The reason why I am thinking of myself in this moment is because when I hear a victim, victim blame themselves, I listen without blame or judgment. But I always want to sort of set them straight, right? Like, no, no, no, this is not your fault. Nope. And it can sound invalidating to victims experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Which I feel bad about, but I want to invalidate the self-abuse. I want to invalidate the ideas they have about themselves that came from the abuser. That they don’t recognize is abuse, and it’s not their fault that they don’t recognize it. It’s sort of a Catch 22 for someone who understands abuse to listen and redirect the truth of what’s going on. Which is a totally different thing, and not why you wrote this. Because you were intending to call out people who say, well, what could you have done better? Kathy: I have to go back and speak to the issue you were just talking about. Because it’s not just the abuser that gives the victim the perspective of, well, you’re to blame too, and this is what you’re doing wrong. That’s what you’re doing wrong, our entire society does it. The Symptoms Of Betrayal Trauma & Power Dynamics In Abuse Kathy: There’s no more popular social activity out there than blaming and hating victims. So for me, this first step is, you’ve got to listen to somebody who identifies themselves as a victim and has betrayal trauma symptoms. You’ve got to listen to them without adding your own misconceptions and misperceptions about what they’re doing. How they added, how they contributed, how they’re complicit in their own abuse, because abuse comes from a power over dynamic. And an abuse victim is never a person in power within that specific relationship. So what do I mean by that? If you are somebody who’s being abused. You’re abused because the person who abuses you has decided they are superior to you. And that you are inferior to them in every way, shape, and form. With somebody like that, you’re not a victim one day and powerful the next day. Where you’re like fighting back. Resistance abuse is a term I can’t stand. It’s not abuse, it’s just resistance. Anne: Exactly, or it’s resistance to abuse. Kathy: You have a power dynamic of one person who’s always dominant over the other. Power and control, coercive control, this is what it’s all about. So I like to use the acronym PRIC: Premeditated, Repetitive, Intentional, Conscious and knowing. Anne: Hmm. Kathy: That’s how abusers work. They do that to establish their dominance as either the partner or as a parent. And they do it with the intention of destroying your ability to have any sense of safety, well-being, or autonomy. Anne: Would you add that they use lying, manipulation, and gaslighting to do it? Kathy: Yeah, yeah they use a bunch of tools in their tool belt to do that. The Intentionality Of Abusers Kathy: People will ask me all the time, is it intentional? Let me tell you how intentional it is. I have another example. My abuser used to sleep at night with his fingers wrapped through my hair. I couldn’t even get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom without him knowing. https://youtu.be/020px4mdTX4 So even in his sleep, he was intentional in knowing exactly where I was and what I was doing at all times. So, it is true that victims will say things that indicate they are taking on the blame for abuse that is happening to them. And I think it is perfectly okay, certainly, I have done it hundreds of times, if not thousands of times. To ask them, can I reframe that for you for a minute? Can we talk about the power dynamic here? What was happening in your mind as you did X, Y, Z? Were you doing that in the moment to be dominant over him? Or were you trying to get some semblance of self autonomy back? Or were you trying to defend yourself or your children? And so deconstructing what that victim calls, I contributed to the abuse. Not to deny them their experience. But to say, like, hey, let’s reframe this to think about what was happening here, because self defense is not abuse. Anne: One of the problems is that abusers will claim their abuse was self defense. No matter how bad she’s suffering from betrayal trauma symptoms. She wouldn’t let me use, I couldn’t take it anymore. I had to take a stand, they might say. But if you ask, what was it that she was pushing for truth, transparency, equality? Reframing Victim Blame Kathy: And, again, it’s about looking at the totality of that relationship. To say, where was your dominance in that moment? You were withholding significant information from her. That caused her to feel like you were not trustworthy, that you were putting her at risk for STI’s. Or that, you were belittling or making small the vows of your wedding that she was taking seriously. Like, there’s always that power dynamic that the perpetrator maintains, even as he is trying to get the victim to take the blame for what her reaction may have been in the moment. Anne: We mentioned it just barely about the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse. So for example, you’re experiencing abuse, so you were abusive to him. Is the idea that BTR.ORG emphatically rejects you’re just resisting or trying to defend yourself from abuse. Which is a totally different thing. Can you talk about why maybe the typical therapist might suggest this? Or maybe an abuse victim might think she’s being abusive in response to his abuse? Kathy: One of the most common ideas around that is it takes two to tango. If you’re in counseling, especially in a co-counseling or couples counseling type of therapeutic relationship. It’s their nature to find where both parties are at fault. Anne: That’s the foundational theoretical underpinning of their training. It’s family systems. That is the schooling they received. I also think that under the certification and licensure, it’s unethical for them to pick a side. Right? Because of the family systems theory with which they’ve been trained. Betrayal Trauma Symptoms, Resources, & The Role of Clergy In Abuse Disclosure Kathy: It’s an aside, but the more I’ve seen the resources available. The only training I’ve seen on trauma informed practices that I think is worthwhile is the training through Dr. Jessica Taylor in the United Kingdom. Anne: I’ve had her on the podcast before. She’s great. Kathy: Because she specifically rejects any concept that would re-brand, re-victimize, or make somebody culpable in their own abuse for men’s violence against women. She would not pathologize women for being victims of men’s violence. Mother Justice Network, by the way, also completely rejects the idea of mutual abuse or reactive abuse. Anne: So many listeners to this podcast, when they find out about their husband’s online explicit material use, for example. Simultaneously, find out that he has been lying to her for years. Most of the time, they’re like a church going type man, right? So it’s assumed he wouldn’t participate in this type of behavior. Many victims, when they find out, the first thing they do is go to clergy. And say, Hey, this is what’s going on. They think maybe clergy can help them. This amounts to a victim disclosing abuse, right? Emotional and psychological abuse are what cause betrayal trauma and all the horrible symptoms that to along with it. But she might not know that’s what he’s doing. And 99% of the time, the clergy does not know that that’s what’s occurring. And so this disclosure of abuse ends up abusing her more in this setting with clergy. But it can happen with therapists or even law enforcement officers, or even the domestic violence shelter. The Risks Of Disclosing Abuse Anne: So let’s talk about some possible ramifications of disclosing abuse. Whether or not you know it’s abuse and are experiencing betrayal trauma symptoms. Women who listen to this podcast have done this because they didn’t know it was abuse. So it wasn’t their fault. They were trying to get help. So they understand the risks and ramifications more than the general population. Kathy: Any time information gets back to someone who is abusive, there will always be a risk of retaliation. Because of making a disclosure of any kind. I think one of the first things anybody listening to this podcast should ask anyone is. “I need to say something to you, I need to tell you something. But I need to know under what circumstances would you share any bit of my disclosure with somebody else, including my partner.” Because if they can’t say to you, we will not disclose anything unless we have your specific written permission to make a disclosure. We will not make a disclosure because it is unsafe. Abusers, when they know they’re being outed, react potentially in a few ways. But the ones that I can think of immediately are they come back at you with anger, and their anger is always dangerous. Or they start spreading lies about you. I call it, she’s the bitter, violent, lying, lazy, crazy, drunken, druggie, money grub and slut defense. Or I call it building social equity. They try to collect as many flying monkeys around them so they can start discrediting you and what your perspective is. Leaving you feeling isolated and alone. It’s never a good response. The Problem With Therapeutic Disclosure Kathy: So disclosure, like even to somebody you think you can trust. You have to ask, what would you potentially do with disclosures that I make? Because it’s important, really important for your own physical and emotional safety. That you know what’s happening to that disclosure after it’s made. Anne: Now, disclosure is a very fraught word here at BTR.ORG . Because any listener who has gone through addiction recovery with the abuser. Usually the therapist wants to do a disclosure with the perpetrator. To write down all his use, affairs and all of his compulsive behavior. So they’ll list it all out and say, okay, we’re going to do this therapeutic disclosure. They don’t identify the victim with betrayal trauma symptoms and the perpetrator, because both of them are victims of the addiction, so to speak. Kathy: That’s really a thing? Anne: This is really a thing, yeah. Kathy: I’m horrified by what you just said. Anne: Yeah. It’s really a thing. So basically, the therapist says to her, “This is going to be hard for him. We need to support him through this disclosure.” They might do like a therapeutic polygraph at the end, which we do not recommend because they do not help. She is the ultimate decision maker about whether she is safe, if she feels safe. Many times after that polygraph, the therapist is like, well, he’s told us everything, and the polygraph has confirmed it. So I don’t know why you’re feeling stressed still and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms. He’s doing great. Now, I guess we have to deal with your trauma. As in, you’re a problem because you feel this trauma, and the trauma is the problem, not his abuse. The Importance Of Safe Reporting Of Abuse Anne: And so now you become like this crazy person, because he’s fine. He’s done everything he’s supposed to do, and you’re still suffering from the effects of betrayal trauma. Kathy: That is the ultimate systemic gaslighting, and I want to vomit right now. Anne: Yeah, it’s really, really bad. I want to acknowledge that as women listen. Because many of them have maybe either considered this addiction recovery, therapeutic disclosure, or someone has suggested it to them. That word disclosure can be very triggering for victims of abuse in this setting, in this context. So she’s talking about reporting the abuse, which is probably the word I would use here, so that we don’t get it confused with therapeutic disclosure. And then, make sure the person you report to is safe. That is key. We have a The BTR.ORG Living Free Workshop that helps women decipher who is safe and who is not. When they start their journey to safety. So that they’re not accidentally reporting the abuse to someone. It could even be a neighbor. Who will get back to him about what’s going on. Kathy: Can I give you an example of what something safe might sound like? Anne: Sure, yeah. Kathy: This is the conversation I have with everybody who calls me from the moment the phone rings, and I pick up the phone. I say, listen, before we get into what you want to tell me about, there are a few things I want you to know about me. How To Identify Safe Helpers Kathy: First and foremost, I believe you. You don’t have to convince me of anything. I know that if you’re reaching out to me, it’s because you are in a storm of unsafety and feeling betrayal trauma symptoms for yourself and your kids. That you are so desperate that you need support. I let them know right from the beginning, I believe you. There’s no having to tell me anything that you don’t want to tell me to get to a place where I believe you. And anybody who would qualify their statement by saying, I have to check in with the other party. No, you don’t. No, you do not. Nobody likes to identify themselves as victims, least of all victims, because there’s no crown at the end of victimization. There isn’t anybody giving us a standing ovation. Nobody likes to identify as a victim. So, when somebody says, I’m being victimized by somebody. We, the society around them, need to say, “Okay, we believe you. How can we help you?” Anne: Absolutely, if you have to twist yourself in all kinds of ways to get someone to believe you, they are not safe. Kathy: Not a safe person, yeah. Anne: That’s a good one. If they have to check in with the other person. Or think, well, this is this side of the story. But you know, every story has two sides. Kathy: It takes two to tango! Yeah. Anne: It takes one to not tango. I mentioned this before when I was talking about how sometimes I talk to victims and they tell me that part of their story. And it includes some victim blaming or it includes some of the abuse that they’ve experienced that they don’t recognize is abuse. So they’re parroting the abuse. The Burden Of Proving Victimization Anne: Again, not their fault. They don’t understand what’s happening. They believe certain things about themselves due to the abuse . And so their experience when they describe it, usually a therapist’s role is to validate that and help them move through that. So how do we validate their betrayal trauma harms and support victims and their live experience, while also educating them about abuse and what has happened to them? Kathy: And I think this goes back to a concept I was talking about earlier. I said, I have them share their experiences in their words to me, then I will ask permission. Would it be okay if I reframe this? You know, you’re telling me that he forces you to have relations when you’re feeling sick. Or when you’re not feeling up to feeling loving. Can I reframe that for you? In most states, that would be considered assault. Even if you’re married, or even if you’re in partnership. So if you’re not feeling up to having relations, if you’re feeling sick or tired. And you haven’t given consent, that is a form of assault. That’s many times how this conversation comes to me. Because the women I talk with tell me all kinds of examples of how their partner refused to take no for an answer. And they’re ticking off almost every checkbox regarding assault. And yet they won’t call it assault. So for me to say like, is it okay if I reframe this for you and give you my perspective on it? If they’re like, no. I had a survivor once who was angry with me because she absolutely 100% percent believed that she was codependent with her perpetrator. Reframing & Educating About Abuse Kathy: It was a Facebook conversation. I said, I’d like to reframe this for you. This is why codependency is problematic, it is a victim blaming concept. That victim blocked me after getting upset with me and explaining her reasonings and why it made sense to her. Sure, I make mistakes. It’s important that I acknowledge them. I needed to hear why that perspective was important to her. I still think it is appropriate to allow that reframing. So that they can start shifting their understanding, their lack of understanding leaves them in abuse. It may be for other people that they contact. It’s about making sure we’re gently educating as long as somebody has the capacity to hear it. If they don’t have that capacity yet, it’s okay to let it be for now. Just encourage them to get other perspectives and other education. Sometimes they hang on to that perspective. out of a survival mechanism or survival skill. And we don’t want to take away what is helping them survive. Anne: I can see better now that I am post abuse, but I remember being there. I remember people saying little things to me and me, like pushing it away or thinking that that wasn’t the case. Only to realize later, oh, that was it. And it was a survival mechanism for me. It is for all survivors. Kathy: Another reframe that I ask people to do a lot is that the concept of that idea of, well, that victim is lying to me. I’m not going to help her because she’s lying to me. I say to the person who’s saying that, the person who wants to be the helper, can we please reframe that and think about it, as she’s not ready to trust you yet? The Right To Edit Your Story Kathy: As opposed to she’s lying to me, and when I think of it that way, when I say this person isn’t ready to trust me yet, I can go back to them. And say, listen, I can understand that you don’t know if I’m trustworthy yet. If you don’t want to tell me something, it’s okay. If I ask you a question, it’s never to deny your experience or to challenge you. It’s only to make sure I fully understand what’s happening, so I can get you to the best help possible. But if you don’t trust me with information, it’s okay to keep it to yourself until you feel I am trustworthy. That just allows women to just like have this big burden roll off their shoulders. Like, she’s not going to accuse me of lying. Because I, as a helper, no matter how good my intentions are. Until they understand who I am and how I work, I don’t get the privilege of automatic access to their victimization story. It’s bold of me to think that I might. And it is important that victims have the right to edit their stories by how safe they are feeling in my presence. Kathy’s Website & Final Thanks Anne: Thank you so much for the work you do. You are incredible. And I appreciate you taking the time to share with us. Kathy will be back on the podcast, talking about a few other topics. We’ll talk about how kids become abusers aligned through the abusers, gaslighting and manipulation of the children. And also talk about the unique challenges, heartaches, and hardships of mothers accused of “parental alienation.” To maintain control and coercively control her and her children. We’ll cover those topics in a few months. So stay tuned, because she is an amazing advocate and has so much to share with you. Kathy: Thank you, Anne. You do amazing work, too.…

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