Divorcing A Narcissist – June’s Story Part 2 (One Year Later)

Betrayal Trauma Recovery - BTR.ORG

Divorcing a narcissist is a nightmare. Anne Blythe, M.Ed. continues her heartfelt conversation with June from the BTR Community one year after she shared the first part of her story. Here the next chapter of her journey divorcing a narcissist.

If you need support while experiencing narcissistic abuse, learn about BTR Group Sessions here.

This episode is Part Two of Anne’s interview with June:

He Blamed Me for the Emotional Abuse – June’s Story Part 1

Divorcing A Narcissist – June’s Story Part 2 (THIS EPISODE)

TRANSCRIPT:

June’s One-Year Follow-Up: Divorcing A Narcissist

Anne: I checked in with June one year later to see how she was doing. This interview happened one year after the episode you heard last week, but still a long time ago. You’ll hear my today voice popping in from time to time talking about The Living Free Workshop and Message Workshops that I developed years after this time. I actually use these strategies and tools to completely deliver me and my kids from abuse without going to court.

If you didn’t hear the beginning of June’s story last week, listen to that first. It’s called He Blamed Me for the Emotional Abuse June story part one. Then come back and listen to this interview, which we did one year later. Welcome June. It’s been a year since we spoke. How are things going for you one year later?

June: We left off last time going through the court process of the custody issues and the divorce proceedings. We have since concluded at least custody for now because my husband appealed the custody from the family court and he appealed it to the circuit court, which in my state is the next higher court. It took us six to nine months to get into the circuit court to have that case heard.

That was an eye opening experience for me. I feel like we’ve had all of these issues, divorcing a narcissist is horrible. All of this bad behavior, all of this conflict between us and it really hasn’t been between us. It’s been him finding the gray areas in the order and exploiting those in ways that might be small and minor, but when you add them all up, it takes its toll.

Experiences With Her Ex’s Divorce Demands

There shouldn’t be any changes or at least any big changes and get this part over with and we can move on. In the circuit court it was just a different experience. The judge had a lot less patience. The judge labeled the conflict as marital fighting and just conflict between my husband and I rather than abuse. That is very, very problematic. I brought two witnesses.

The judge really didn’t want to hear from them, so he didn’t hear from them at all, which was a problem. I can say that I’m happy with the outcome. For the most part, the custody didn’t change too much. A lot more freedom, discretion and leeway is in the order. In The BTR Community that translates to a lack of boundaries in our new order. I know that is going to be a problem.

It already has been a problem. That’s what I’m dealing with right now. Currently it is just an order for custody. I’m still the primary parent. I have the kids 75% of the time, which is great. I feel that my influence on the kids and having a safe and stable home environment for them and a connected parenting relationship with them is super important.

When they’re going through this, their dad does get a certain amount of days each month and it’s when he wants to see them. He can get a certain amount of days. That creates a bit of a problem.

Husband’s Narcissistic Behavior

Anne: We’re personal friends, so we talk a lot about this. One of the things that surprises me, and I’d like to know how you feel about it, is that so many of the things that your soon to be ex does are just not smart. He doesn’t seem smart at all. He just seems narcissistic, clueless and way more confident in his own abilities than he actually is.

At the same time, he’s able to exploit all these little areas of the law and he actually is really smart at the same time. He is a doctor, he’s not a dummy. How do you reconcile this crazy, nonsensical, irrational behavior and all of the bad choices that he makes with this ability to exploit the law in a way that works for him? This is a huge part of divorcing a narcissist. He’s sort of like this evil genius kind of thing. How do you feel about that?

June: I definitely feel that is such an accurate representation of reality of what is going on. There are times that I feel his chaos and disorganization is really, really to his detriment. Obviously it is to the detriment of the kids. It affects them. It’s chaotic. He can’t show up for appointments on time, he can’t get the kids to where they need to be on time. He won’t return things that they need, important things.

For instance, when has the kids on vacation, the court order says that the kids call me on the middle day at a certain time. Up to this date, I have never received that phone call at a certain time.

https://youtube.com/shorts/tVUVAwZzedU

Concerns Children’s Safety

He does not let me talk to them. Honestly, as a mother, as a person who he assaulted, as a person that is very well aware of the effects of trauma, abuse, narcissism and how those things all go together and create really the perfect storm. That could be disastrous.

I worry about my kids during those times, I worry that he’s snapped, they are not okay and they’re not safe. I almost feel like it’s happened so much at this point it’s purposeful. He must know that I worry and that’s why he does it, the control. He’s definitely spiraling.

I’ve had several people in the community come and tell me that they have seen problematic behavior from him. People tell me that they have heard things that have happened at his previous workplace. I’ve had two people tell me that they’ve heard that he assaulted a female in his previous workplace. He has since lost his job because he missed several days of work, missed shifts and didn’t show up on time.

There were several other people that complained of his treatment of patients, how he was medically treating them. Some of that is also really an indication of his unhealthiness

Anne: Because with a lot of abusive men, they pick and choose. They’re very together at their job at church, they look really good. At home is when they lose their temper, they don’t lose it anywhere else. It’s a display of control at home. You’re saying his dysfunction is starting to leak out into his public persona?

Narcissistic Dysfunction

June: Yes, the dysfunction definitely is. Now that is something different than the anger and abuse. I even feel like sometimes he uses the dysfunction as a ploy to get people to feel sorry for him. He’s this broken down dad that just wants his kids so much and he’s just floundering without them

Anne: He’s a single dad and it’s so hard for him because he is a victim.

June: Yes, and I feel like that’s very much what’s going on now. On dating sites, for example, He’s on all the dating sites. He clearly says, I’m a single dad. Here’s a bunch of pictures of my kids, and by the way, I have my kids 50/50. Somehow that’s supposed to mean that he is a better dad or people can trust him more,

Anne: But that’s a lie. He doesn’t have them 50/50.

June: That is a lie. He does not have them 50/50.

Anne: Mine says the same thing. He’s got these pictures of him as a dad and he’s also got this Christian for life, I love Jesus stuff going on on his dating profiles. Okay, but he doesn’t obey the commandments, whatever. I think that’s really interesting because if he did start dating someone, they would soon see that he didn’t have them 50/50. He’s really not setting himself up for a good relationship.

June: Exactly right. I think that a lot of these guys see mechanisms that can give them instant trust. Yes, being a Christian is one thing that can give them instant trust. Being a single dad is one thing that can give them instant trust with whoever their next person will be.

Financial Revelations In Divorcing A Narcissist

Another thing that I found very interesting in court this past time is that we were going over support of course, because that’s all wrapped up in custody. He testified that his church, my church, has been paying for his mortgage and car payment and that is almost $2,000 a month. This person is a doctor. He makes $24,000 a month, well over $300,000 a year.

He said the church paid for his expenses because he is so broke. That he cannot even pay for these things. In preparation my lawyer subpoenaed all of his bank records, all of his pay stubs, everything like that, all of the financials. The intern went through it and categorized things by item. It turns out that he has spent thousands of dollars on liquor, hundreds of dollars on pornography.

Anne: When we say liquor, I just want the audience to know that June’s soon to be ex and June are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Alcohol is something they do not do. His clergy is paying his house payment while this man is going out and buying alcohol, which is really, really a big deal.

June: And he had contributed tens of thousands of dollars into his own retirement during this time that the church was paying for his expenses

Anne: Acting like, oh, I’m going through so much help me. Right?

Financial Status Of Narcissistic Husband

June: And my ex-wife took all of my money. Really anyone that has gone through the courts would know. It’s a straight calculation. After this, I became very, very disturbed. I know the process, a little bit of receiving church welfare. My dad was a bishop. He had to help people meet their urgent and emergent needs on occasion. I began to really think, I need to know the story of this.

I need to know how far this went. The bishop was the same bishop that was spiritually abusive to me. This bishop had very, very clearly taken aside. Financially he had even taken a side in this divorce where he chose to support my husband and not me. He is paying these expenses, thousands of dollars a month for these things.

He has really enabled him to continue legal abuse and also continue really unhealthy behaviors and to pay for those.

Anne: If he had been paying you the $2,000 a month, you could have purchased groceries. I mean it’s crazy. Sorry, just for our listeners, steam and fire is coming out of my ears right now.

June: Really if he had just paid his own mortgage and his own car payment, then maybe he would not have as much money to pay his lawyer. Then we could move on and get everything wrapped up and not be in constant legal battle

Anne: And not have to go to the next higher court up and all that business.

Seeking Support For Divorcing A Narcissist

June: Exactly. I became very alarmed, like I said, and as soon as court was over, I began my research. In my research, I reached out to the congregation that he currently attends. The leader of it, a bishop, by this point the previous bishop had been released from that position. A new bishop was put in

Anne: For listeners who are not familiar, all of the clergy in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are volunteers. Someone is asked or called to be the leader of the congregation for a period of usually around three to five years. Then a new volunteer is called and it just rotates around. You’re saying that the old bishop was released and a new volunteer bishop was called?

June: Exactly. I felt safe reaching out to this new bishop because he was not the same one that I spoke about on the earlier podcasts who was very spiritually abusive. To this new bishop and to the leader above him, which is a stake president, and to the area authority, the person above him just to get some answers.

I had emailed a couple times with no response and explained the situation in emails. I just wasn’t getting any response. And so I just kept kind of adding more people to these emails, trying to get some sort of answers on how long has this been going on? The thing that really concerned me is that I didn’t verity anything. Because we are married, I am still the property owner on things that the church paid.

Deciding To Meet With New Clergy

I’m still on the loan for the house. I’m still on the loan for the car that is still legally my property and nothing was verified with me. In that process I learned mine and my children’s records had been transferred back to that congregation.

Anne: When June says records, I am so sorry for people who are like, we don’t want to know the workings of your church. The it will help understand the context of why this is such a big deal. That’s why we’re explaining it. The congregations are set up in geographical areas, you do not choose what congregation you go to. It’s called a ward, each congregation has a boundary to it.

You can have your records transferred in or out depending on your situation. What she is saying is that she had her records transferred out with the impending divorce and that the records were back with that congregation where her soon to be ex is going. Where your records are is where you attend church, so you find out that your records are in his congregation.

June: Upon finding that out, I just set up a meeting with the bishop because I figure,

Anne: Oh, he’s my bishop, right? This is my congregation. Yeah, he’s my bishop now.

June: Yes. I set up a meeting, I went and talked to him. I brought up the misuse and misappropriation of fast offerings, which are tithes in a way. It’s like a collection plate in another church or another religion. I brought this up to the bishop.

Meeting With Clergy About Divorcing A Narcissist

I told him I have documentation of the discretionary spending that the church would not approve of. Why is a man that is making $300,000 a year receiving this assistance when I know for a fact that we have people living in dire poverty in the congregation. We met for about an hour. The bishop listened to me.

He stated that he doesn’t know when this started, but that he did make a couple of payments for my husband. He did not verify any of this because he felt like there was a need and he just took him at face value. I also talked to him about the history and the abuse, the betrayal, the trauma, the assault, all of those things. And he was very gracious to listen and we had a very, very good discussion.

I felt very, very hopeful after meeting with him. We talked about how to deal with some of these behaviors of my husband and if this bishop had any interest in doing that because it was never dealt with.

Anne: You mean like a church court or holding boundaries or some things like that?

June: Yes, but now that I’m in the ward and my children’s records are in the ward, how to navigate that situation,

Anne: Especially if you have a protective order.

June: I did., yes. He said he really didn’t know anything about the situation or anything like that. He said that he was more interested in current things that were happening, current abuse. So I described some situations and post-separation abuse, post-divorce abuse is a lot harder to really identify. It can just look like someone just being a jerk to the other parent. Describing what it’s like while divorcing a narcissist is difficult.

Protective Orders & Church Policies While Divorcing A Narcissist

I did describe situations of my husband swearing at me at drop off in exchange, purposely keeping the kids from talking to me. Situations that I would say are very much in this gray area that one or two things by themselves don’t really do anything. I said, I’ve been living this for over two years and I can tell you it’s just repeated abuse. It’s just in a different form. It was very interesting to hear his take on that.

I asked him what kind of training he received for dealing with abuse and trauma. He said that he has the spirit and that’s the training.

Anne: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Because narcissists seem like they’re telling the truth and so it unquote feels right. Yes.

June: I tried to gently push back on that a little, and I just said, okay, but you realize that when you gave him this money, you would’ve had that same discernment, the spirit and it didn’t work right. You understand that, and I could see the wheels were turning. I could see that he was thinking about that. I also took in the policy on abuse.

The church has come out with a policy, I think it was in March of 2018, and it’s very, very clear. There’s a very clear directive that abuse is not to be tolerated. That people who come reporting abuse in any form should be believed and that false accusations are just not the norm. In fact, they are very, very rare. And so I really came with that policy in hand

Conversations About Repentance & Church’s Role

Anne: Before you go on, the false accusations are usually from the abuser, right? The abuser is usually saying, I was abused.

June: I could refer to it at different points in our conversation. I said, now that I’m reporting this, is it your intention to look into this and to handle it in a way that is conducive with the church’s own policy? Again, I felt like he probably had good intentions, but he said, well, yes, I’ll bring him in here and I’ll talk to him. Every story has two sides.

Anne: The abuser is never going to be like, oh yeah, I was the abuser. And then he is going to say, okay, then let’s go forward with the policy. If the abuser goes in and says, no, that’s not what happened. She’s the abuser. Then they’re just left confused and they’re like, well, I don’t know what to do and I don’t know what this policy means now,

June: And this is where I feel like the behaviors of my husband and the acting really come into play.

Anne: You mean his hypocritical slash, I’m the victim slash, I’m a good guy stuff.

June: Yes. I described this actually for the bishop, I said, I was married to this person for over a decade. This always goes the same way. I said, he will come in here and he will say, I’m so sorry, I just feel so horrible and I’m just damaged. I said, then he will start crying, and my husband is a very big guy. To see a grown man cry is shocking. Because it is so shocking, we think, oh my gosh, this is so shocking.

Telling Clergy About Husband’s Narcissism

He must be in complete and utter turmoil. Then because we’re distracted in our thinking and not centering on the subject matter of what we wanted to talk to him about, it kind of gets swept under the rug, and that’s that. I said, I’ve seen him do this so many times

Anne (00:21:23): He also starts blaming you and telling him how abusive you were and all the bad things you did, but if you haven’t listened, she ended up with a night in jail. So I’m sure then he pulls that out. She went to jail.

June (00:21:35): That I kidnapped the kids. Remember the arrest has now been expunged, and so legally I do not have to say that I have been arrested anymore, but usually to build my credibility, I’m very upfront with that. There’s not a lot of shame there for me at all anymore. So I really did tell the bishop that I was very concerned because not only does he come in here and act like this, but he’s also looking like it.

He looks disheveled and remember people are telling me he doesn’t look so good. I said, everything that you’re seeing and that you’re hearing will be telling you that, oh yeah, maybe he does have a plausible story. Maybe this is the truth. That is what I think is so harmful about this situation in particular, is that he is using his own unhealthiness as a means to be able to prove his story.

Advising Clergy To Ask Victim About Repentance

That he is so despondent and just in despair at what has happened when that is not the truth. I was very clear also, I told the bishop, I will be the first person to know of true repentance by my husband. I will be the first person to see it, I will be able to see and clearly be able to identify change behavior.

Anne: If you want to know if someone’s repented, ask the victim.

June: Yes. I got into a really important discussion with him about that, and I’m so glad that I did because I asked him, how do you assess for repentance? How do you assess change in behavior? Do you ask the victim? Do you ask the person that it was directed to? He said, well, yeah, of course we would.

Anne: But you’re like, but they never have have with me.

June: Exactly.

Anne: From all the women in our community. I can’t remember one of them being asked when they’re still married and they’re both in the same congregation. If they’re in a separate congregation, they don’t call the victim.

June: Exactly. I had a really important discussion with him about that. I also said that at one point in the marriage with a previous bishop, this was a completely different bishop that my husband had admitted to infidelity and that we had gone to the bishop. We were trying to work through it. This was sort of at the codependent phase of my process

Anne: When you were doing the codependent stuff.

June: I was doing the codependent thing with my husband and really trying to connect, thinking the more that we could connect, the less that he would have these behaviors.

Anger & Its Legitimacy In Divorcing A Narcissist

Anne: The more you attach to your abuser, the less he would abuse you during that stage.

June: We did go to the bishop several years ago, and this bishop actually did call him to a church disciplinary council, and it was very small. It was just talking to a few of the leaders about the nature of the harm that was done. At the time this bishop said, I would invite you to come, but I feel that you’re just too upset and too angry, and there is no place for that there.

Anne: What? There’s no place for the victim to tell her experience.

June: Yes, there’s no place for your anger within the council because it’s a council of love and we want to be able to feel the spirit.

Anne: Oh, you don’t have any right to be angry and your anger is unjustified basically. This is so crazy.

June: I didn’t end up going at all. Like I said, this was several years ago. I didn’t end up going. I relied solely on my husband to tell me what the outcome of that particular event was. He said that the brethren had prayed about it and everyone had the spiritual experience that he was changed and that there was to repentance. I still kind of wonder what actually happened.

Anne: Yeah, you don’t know what went down.

June: I don’t know. I told my current bishop that I felt like that was harmful. The more that I’ve proceeded and progressed in my own healing, the more that I have recognized anger is such a healthy thing.

Understanding Divorcing A Narcissist Issues

Anne: Is totally normal. How else would you be?

June: Exactly. It’s completely normal. And I said it even kept me safe. It kept me safe from being with this person intimately, emotionally, physically, spiritually. It kept me safe at that time, and that is the only thing that kept me safe.

Anne: Yeah, because you sure weren’t doing it.

June: Exactly. Like I said, I didn’t realize it at the time because I was in this codependent model of therapy.

Anne: We’ve all been there.

June: I told this current bishop that the anger that I was labeled with and that being harmful was really, really nothing compared to the harm that I had suffered. In my marital vows being betrayed and in putting my unborn child at risk. I was 37 weeks pregnant at the time that my husband was intimate with another person, all of these lies, deceptions, betrayals and, of course, I would be angry.

Of course, I would be so upset and distraught and everything else. We had another discussion about legitimate anger and I said, I don’t see anger as a bad emotion. No emotion is bad. They just have different purposes and different meanings.

Anne: Well, and it also depends on what caused it. If your abusive perceptions of the woman who should make the meal are causing your anger. Then she doesn’t make the meal and that’s why you’re getting mad. The abusive perceptions are what’s causing the anger rather than healthy perceptions.

I think it also depends on if your perceptions are coming from a healthy place or if your perceptions are coming from an entitled, objectification, power, control, and manipulation place too.

Discussion Of Legitimacy Of Anger In Divorce

June: If they come from that place, that means that is abuse. I would say the abuser who’s angry because he’s entitled to a hot meal and the wife didn’t get it together that day and he flies off the handle, that’s abuse. That is past the point of anger into abuse.

Anne: For people who don’t know about abuse, they think, well, they’re both angry. They don’t recognize the difference between the two. Yeah,

June: Exactly. We had another really important discussion of that mechanism of abuse and violence really, and betrayal trauma. I took the time to educate him a little bit on betrayal, trauma on how women feel in this situation and how devastating it is and how expendable if felt.

When the betrayals reached a point for me that my boundary was divorce and separation. Not to mention I was unsafe, I was assaulted and that was just a boundary for me that I had to do what I did. I tried to explain that to him, I felt like it was eye opening. I felt like it was a good conversation.

Anne: It was eye opening for you or him?

June: I felt like it was eye opening for him. I had this conversation about a week ago. It’s difficult to describe what it’s like divorcing a narcissist

Anne: It’s been a week, but my guess is that over time he’ll ponder it and he’ll either move closer to the truth and he’ll get softer toward you and more protective of you, and he’ll set more boundaries around him. Or he’ll get farther away from the truth, start treating you worse and start treating the abuser better. It’s going to go one way or the other.

Church’s Financial Assistance Policies

The more he ponders it, he’s either going to start making excuses for the falsities and dig himself deeper that way, or he’s going to get better. Only time will tell.

June: Exactly. He did say that it’s very clear that he needs to speak with my husband, and he said it’s clear that he does not feel like giving him any more assistance would be appropriate without verifying and looking at his financials closer. It’s hard because in our particular religion, we have these donations set up for the needs of people, and I was always very happy to tithe and to give extra to help meet these needs.

I was under the impression that there was kind of a requirement for this to be temporary, to help people in emergency situations, you get employment somewhere else, take a second job or something like that.

Anne: Or in long-term situations with a widow for example, you would be a good candidate for a long-term situation. You’re a single mom of four. I would be a good candidate. Widows would be good candidates. It’s not that it’s always going to be short-term. There are going to be cases where it’s appropriate to have long-term help, but he’s not one of those guys.

He’s not disabled, he’s not a widow, he’s not mentally or physically disabled except for with his narcissism. He’s a doctor.

Most Painful Time Of Divorcing A Narcissist

June: Exactly. Conversely, when you compare this to the time in our separation that I was so destitute because he had paid nothing in support for almost five months. I had gone to the bishop and asked for a couple of food orders, which the church has a really great welfare program for food where they deliver food to people in local congregations.

I had asked for a couple of orders until wage garnishment could go through, and the Bishop gave me a couple of orders for me and the kids. Then all of a sudden cut me off completely and said, you don’t need this anymore. I’m not giving it to you anymore. I still hadn’t received any child support checks. I still hadn’t received any sort of support. The despair that I felt at that time when that happened is still so painful.

It is still one of the most painful feelings that I could describe. I didn’t survive because the church helped me. I survived in spite of them not helping me. That has hurt me for years.

Anne: When they’re simultaneously helping your abuser.

June: Yes.

Anne: Obviously not cutting him off.

June: No, I tried to blow the whistle in my local congregation. At the same time I was doing this, I had also called church headquarters, got the name of someone that I could speak to in the auditing department, and I shared my story with them. They were horrified about my story.

Anne: That’s great news.

Don’t Know Ultimate Result Of Speaking Up

June: It is great news. They did say that they’ve had problems in this area before that they would see about investigating it. It seems like I really kept running into these brick walls. And on top of that, it was everyone that I spoke to or had the chance to speak with, were men. They had never been in this situation.

Anne: I want to tell a story here because you don’t know what the fruits of this will be. When I was a teacher, there was something that went down that was not right. I wrote the superintendent. I just wrote a really short email and said, Hey, this is going down. It’s not cool. I didn’t hear anything for probably six months.

Then all of a sudden this superintendent showed up and had a meeting at our school with all of the teachers, and I was the facilitator of that meeting. I was the one who had brought it up in the first place. I had all of the teachers testify of what had happened. A couple of people resigned because of the email and because of what I did. I didn’t really see it immediately.

A lot of women call somebody, they write somebody, they go to a meeting, they speak up and the person just looks at ’em weird and they’re like, that didn’t go well.

You don’t know what the long-term effects of that will be. It might not be that someone resigns or that someone gets fired. It might not be that big, who knows? I don’t want this glazed over look that we get from male leadership, clergy, pastors, therapists, whoever it is to stop us from speaking unless we go in and have these meetings.

Returning To Church As A Divorcing Woman

Even though my guess is you were pretty terrified after all of the abuse that you’ve been through with clergy. I’m so proud of you and I want to encourage women. Our safety’s on the line, our emotional safety, our reputation. People call us crazy. People call us man haters. We need to keep speaking up. We will never know the extent of influence that we have.

June: More than ever, I feel so strong about that. It is easy to get discouraged. It is very easy to say, well, they listened to me. They didn’t take action right away. That just means that they’re never going to,

Anne: I don’t think that’s true. If enough of us went in and spoke, they would take action eventually. Maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year. But if every woman who has been through this in every church or in every paradigm or with every single therapist spoke up, we could change the world.

June: Yes. So after this all happened, I also made the decision to just start attending this congregation and it kind of came out of the blue today. I had someone invite me and I trusted this person and sat by her and I went, and I could not have had a more positive experience when I went to church today.

Anne: For our listeners. She has been avoiding church.

June: For years, for over two years..

Anne: In our church, if you don’t go, it’s sort of like you’re the guilty one. See, she’s the problem because she’s not coming to church. Victims are labeled with that all the time.

Positive Experience With Church Members

June: Since this happened, I’ve definitely dealt with my share of flying monkeys in the congregation, and that’s a term where people do the bidding and the dirty work of the narcissists by spreading rumors and lies and gossip. Let me tell you, all those people were there. I have done a lot of work. I’ve gone to the BTR groups, I’ve done guided meditation and I have done all of this work on healing.

I’ve read books today. I can say that I went there and I was really strong and felt for the most part, unaffected emotionally. I felt that my boundaries were my boundaries and that those people and what they say or what they think really didn’t have to affect me. And I do not for one second want to make it seem that we have a choice all the time for these things not to affect us.

I am saying that healing takes time and that healing can happen. You can get to a place where it will be okay. It will be okay for you. Actually, my husband’s affair partner was also in the ward.

Anne: Also your really good friend before he had an affair with her.

June: Yes. My really good friend who was also in the ward, it was her mother who was teaching one of the lessons today. I was like, oh my goodness, what are the chances? But it was a wonderful lesson. It was on mental health challenges and the stigmatization that doesn’t need to happen. She taught the lesson. It was fantastic. I added some things because I work in the area of mental health.

Verified Lies & Affair While Divorcing A Narcissist

We got to talking and she didn’t know who I was and she wanted to know who I was. In the parking lot afterwards, I told her who I was.

Anne: She’s probably heard horrific stories about you. She just didn’t know you were the one that she had heard these horrific stories about.

June: Yes. I just said to her, I believe that your daughter and my husband had an affair. I said, I don’t want you to feel any way about it. I’m just telling you that I’m the wife. She said that she was very aware that they had a relationship and she didn’t know that he was still married. We kind of became friends and talked about our similar career interests.

There is no way I could have had a conversation like that two years ago when this was fresh. There is no possible way. Today I had a conversation. It was a very difficult conversation with someone that I would’ve never dreamed I could have a conversation with before. It’s a lot like the conversation that I had with the bishop.

I would’ve never dreamed I could have such an impactful and pleasant and peaceful conversation while saying exactly what I needed to say.

Anne: This is also a testament to being away from your abuser for years, that you’re talking about it. You didn’t have as many boundaries. The manipulation and fog that they can create is really dark. The longer you set the boundaries for safety, emotional, physical, psychological, sexual safety. The longer you set those, not only do you get more and more out of the fog, so do other people.

Setting Boundaries For Narcissistic Behaviors & Results

June: Yes. And I feel that that has really been also a roadmap to trying to co-parent with a narcissist. We are still having major issues, major issues and issues where the kids’ safety has even been a concern. Issues of abusive things going on.

The more that I am in these situations and the more that I just do not react and just set those boundaries, set the boundaries for safety, the more that I find it not affecting me as much. Now it’s hard because I do see some of this affecting the children, and that is a big challenge. It breaks my heart.

They will use the children to hurt you when they can’t hurt you directly anymore. I feel that that is what is happening, that is horrifying. It’s horrifying.

Anne: It is. Yeah. Well, and the boundaries you have to set are really rough too. For example, I set a boundary that my children go out in the clothes that they came in with. The reason I set that boundary is because he was stealing my clothes. I would send them out in nice clothes and he would send them back in hand me down rags from his family.

I asked repeatedly, please send them back in the clothes I sent them out with. And he said, it’s impossible. He was like, well, you wash their clothes. He just did all these things. Finally, I just said, okay, I’ll send them back in the clothes you send them in. I saved some of his clothes from when they came back in their rags. One day I sent them out in his rags, and we’ve been doing that ever since.

Discussing Boundaries While Divorcing A Narcissist

It breaks my heart. My children do not want to put those rags on, and I don’t want to send them out of the house like that, but that is the boundary. I said, you guys, I’m so sorry. Your dad’s choices hurt everyone. They hurt me. They hurt you. I am sorry that you don’t have snow boots when you go to his house. That’s his job and I’m divorced from him. The challenges of divorcing a narcissist are immense.

I don’t need to babysit him anymore or make sure that your needs are met when it’s his job to take care of you. It’s so hard to make those choices. I don’t think that women can start making these boundaries unless they have a lot of support.

When I say support, I mean someone who understands this type of abuse to help them set the boundaries, because otherwise, that type of boundary seems really hard. I seem like I’m this awful, terrible person who’s sending my kids out in rags, and I had to make that decision based on assessing my values, assessing the consequences of his behavior to his own children.

Do you think you could have set the boundaries that you set without The BTR Community without Betrayal Trauma Recovery?

June: Definitely not. When I first started learning about boundaries, it was a foreign concept to me. I was never taught this growing up or my faith. I was never taught this in college even. It has really been a learning process. When I started learning about boundaries, I inevitably made mistakes along the way as everyone does.

Support From BTR Group Sessions While Divorcing A Narcissist

Anne: How did The Betrayal Trauma Recovery Community help you progress in your knowledge and your application of those boundaries?

June: I could come with a scenario. I could come with a real life problem and be directed into what my values were, what my boundaries should be around those values. What that ultimately looks like in practice and being supported, being supported in whatever boundary I chose. That was my boundary and I was going to be supported in that, and I knew I had backup, and that was huge.

Anne: The other thing that’s so hard about boundaries is, let me read you this quote I just saw. So this is a line from ancient Sanskrit scripture. It says, you are only entitled to the action, never to its fruits, which I think is really good. That’s how boundaries are. And that’s why people are so afraid to set them, because you set a boundary and you have no idea what the consequences are going to be.

You just have to know that what I’m doing is for my safety, and this is what feels right now. You can always adjust, I set that boundary and maybe that wasn’t the right thing to do. Next time I’ll do it differently. Right? Like you said, you’re going to make some mistakes. Things will need to adjust. My boundary that I set, I didn’t want to get divorced.

Difficulty Communicating With A Liar

I didn’t think divorce was going to be where that led, I needed no contact. I cannot have any semblance of communication with this person without him lying to me, manipulating me, trying to pull one over on me, nothing. There can be no communication without that. I didn’t know what the consequences would be. Some women set a boundary and their husband thinks, wow, I’ve been abusive.

I’m sorry. We don’t know what the consequences are going to be. That is one thing that you need support for. You need support to know, even though this could lead to something awful or good. We have no idea, if we focus on the now and the safety in the moment, then it will always lead us down the right path.

June: Exactly. Boundaries can change. When I first started in this process of going through litigation for custody it is expected that we co-parent and communicate. I took what that judge said very seriously. I would write detailed email updates every month with the kid’s appointments, how they were doing with pictures, all of these things to him and do it very quickly.

This last court date, I found out that he used a lot of that against me. A lot of it was sadly very, very sadly used against me. This judge didn’t really care about that so much. He actually made a comment that these people are divorced. They’re not going to co-parent, who cares. While I am totally and willingly invested in co-parenting with a healthy person, I doubt very much that that can happen when divorcing a narcissist.

Now I’m left renegotiating, alright, where does this leave me as far as communication and how much do I want to have?

The BTR Message Workshop Helped

Anne: Yeah. The BTR Message Workshop teaches these tools and the phrases to use to ensure that the communication is safe and is leading towards safety. We found that these tools work whether or not you’re married or divorced or separated, these tools work no matter what stage you’re in.

June: My emails to him are short, to the point, unemotional, straightforward and full of facts. That’s it, nothing else. Nothing else needs to be there. My communication is polite but brief. It is the communication that I would have with someone like a boss or a coworker or something like that.

Anne: The reason why I love having women from our community on the podcast is because everyone can benefit from hearing other women’s stories. As you listen, if you relate and you would like to come on the podcast and share your story, please email us at [e-mail].

June: It’s very, very important. I can not stress this enough. It is so important for women in this situation to do research on divorcing a narcissist. A lot of these guys that have porn issues and infidelity issues, have narcissistic issues as well. You do not see that until, I often say, I was married. I could manage this behavior. I could manage him a little bit because I kind of knew how to work around these things.

Anne: I’d say the same of me managing it. Yeah.

Abuse Escalation While Divorcing A Narcissist

June: Yes. A friend told me when I was being severely abused every day, verbally abused, emotionally abused, spiritually abused. She was aware of the situation. She even said to me, just make sure what is in your future because it can and it will get worse. At the time, I thought, there’s nothing that could be worse than going through this constant and daily abuse every single day.

I felt like I was losing my mind, I didn’t know which end was up, I didn’t know reality. I had such a fog, fear, obligation, and guilt I was really, really just not a healthy person. Now I begin to see what she was talking about. Yes, the abuse is worse because now it is directed towards my children. Now it is directed within the community. Now it is directed in different ways that are so much harder to prove.

It’s like if you went into court, do you think a judge is really going to care that he sends your kids in rags?

Anne: No.

June: I mean, the judge that I went to, he would say, get out of here,

Anne: Or Why are you so judgy? Or whatever. That’s not the thing that I think is abusive. The abusive thing is stealing my clothes, not respecting anyone’s time and all those things. He has plenty of money. He could buy him boots or whatever, but he doesn’t.

Manipulation Of Proceedings When Divorcing A Narcissist

June: Right. And the thing is that I feel like a lot of the family court professionals, judges, things like that, have really been desensitized. They hear horrific cases of abuse. When a dad can’t get the kids somewhere on time or can’t return their clothes, it just does not register with them as the abuse that it is. It is abuse because we feel it. We know that.

I think these things are purposeful because he knows no one’s going to care. He knows I care because I can’t afford to go out and buy a new coat every time that he forgets to return theirs.

Anne: Exactly. Yeah. Well, you’ve got a doctor for an ex or soon to be ex, I have an attorney.

June: Yes

Anne: They know what they can and cannot do. And so they go right up to that line and they don’t cross it.

June: Yes. And going back to your original point, that is very much within their realm and their playbook of abuse and narcissism. They know what they’re doing and they not only know, but they exploit that in a way that sometimes is unbelievable. It’s unbelievable. Yeah, I do feel like things have gotten worse, this is what happens when divorcing a narcissist.

I have spent probably close to a hundred thousand dollars trying to get divorced. I’m still not divorced. That is the reality of divorcing a narcissist. That is the reality.

Anne: That’s financial abuse.

Escalation Of Abuse In Divorce Proceedings

June: It is financial abuse. It’s legal abuse. It’s everything. Things are worse. The difference is that now I’m not in that constant state of abuse in my own home. I can deal with this other abuse. Now I feel like I can function. I am a functional adult. I’m not only surviving, but I am thriving despite all of this other abuse. It’s horrible, horrible abuse still, but I’m able to handle it.

Anne: So you’re not finished with your divorce yet, but do you have some tips for our listeners? I want you to start way back with even listeners who are not thinking that divorce is in their future. Even listeners who are thinking, No, he seems to be understanding what I’m saying. He seems to be getting better because you and I both went through a phase where we thought, oh, things are getting better. He understands.

I’m not saying that listeners who are in that phase are going to get to the divorce phase. Maybe he will continue to improve, and if so, both June and I are very happy for you. That’s great. We wish that would’ve happened for us and it didn’t. Let’s start there. Even for women in that phase, what tips do you have about what is coming, what to expect and things that you wish that you would’ve known?

June: It would’ve been very helpful for me to know that really the natural progression of these cases when they are taken to court. If a dad goes back and asks for more time, whatever. Any information about divorcing a narcissist would be helpful. The court will oftentimes just give him a little bit more time. Like I said, my situation was that there has been all this bad behavior.

Narcissistic Husband’s Lying in Court

Surely he won’t be rewarded with a big change. He wasn’t rewarded with a huge change, but it was enough of a change that he could exploit the lack of boundaries, like I said, and now that’s what we have. Now that’s what I’m going to deal with. Be prepared for them to paint a picture of you that is literally unrecognizable.

He lied about many, many things. He said all of these things about me not caring for the kids or the kids being dirty and all of this other nonsense.

That’s very hard. It’s very hard when I feel like so many times I have literally been the bigger person. I have invited him to the kids’ events, made sure to save a seat for him and been very aware and doing the emotional labor to include him in those things. To have that used against me is horrible. It feels horrible. It’s a betrayal on its own.

After this last court date, like I said, I was in shock. I was in some trauma because I know what boundaries, the lack of boundaries would do to my husband in this situation. It’s only going to get worse. That was very hard. If I had expected that a little bit more, I think it would’ve been maybe a little bit easier. You talked to me right afterwards and I was pretty distraught. Now I’m feeling okay about it.

Divorcing A Narcissist: Documentation In Preparation For Future

I feel like I’ve gotten some good coping skills and that documentation is going to be huge. So the other thing that I learned is that documentation is key. It is paramount. You have got to document everything. That can be a challenge sometimes. One thing that I’ve learned that has helped me immensely wherever I am is I use the BTR boundary log.

Anne: The boundary log is a log that is available to women who have taken The Living Free Workshop that teaches all of these strategies about how to think about it, how to set boundaries, and how to communicate. The boundary isn’t just an independent book that you would buy, it’s for you specifically for women who have enrolled in The Living Free Workshop.

June: Yes, that has been great. Anytime there is some kind of an issue, the kid’s not getting somewhere on time, an offhanded comment, him swearing at me, him forgetting to return one of the kids’ items and refusing to go get it. I just write that down and that is my log. The way that you document your evidence is very, very important. Keeping a timeline of those things in real time is huge.

Another thing that I’ve learned is that I think that a lot of times the narcissistic ex is really in the mindset of winning. This is about winning for him. I don’t think that he really wants the kids asking for 50/50, and mind you, he hasn’t gotten it. He keeps asking, acting like he wants it. I think that this is about winning for him. It’s not that he actually wants to have the kids but that he wants the appearance of wanting the kids.

Husband’s Public Persona Backfires

On dating sites, it says that he has them 50/50. Sometimes I think that you can use that to your advantage. I am aware of a woman who allowed her ex to say that he had 50/50 when in reality it wasn’t, and he didn’t actually want it. He just wanted to be able to say that.

June: However you can make that and use that to your benefit, I think is important.

Anne: Before you move on, I want to stress that you might get really upset in court about things like, oh, they’re saying this thing and I don’t want that thing to happen. The reality is once that paper is signed and the divorce decree is done, what happens may be very different. You might think, oh, okay, I got everything that I wanted, or I didn’t get anything that I wanted, or whatever it is.

In reality, it might not even function like that. Just note that what they really want is the appearance of things. If they’re saying things, but it’s really not affecting the way you and your kids live, oh, for heaven’s sake, let them say it. That’s a type of battle that’s not worth fighting. This is like win-win because they get to live their lie and you get to get away.

June: Yeah, that’s exactly right. Part of me thinks that once we get the divorce finalized, divide the property and everything. Maybe things will calm down a little bit. I’ve often said I can deal with whatever crazy schedule we have, whatever he is going to do to me for the amount of time that he gets the kids every month, then fine. Most of the time I am peaceful, and that’s everything.

Build Community Support For Divorcing A Narcissist

That’s another tip that I want to share, please build your community and engage in your self-care and get to know the ropes. I can’t stress that enough. If I had the choice not to go through the court system, I would do that because this has been traumatizing. It is awful. It makes you feel victimized again and again and again. I feel like the narcissist. Really press on that.

Anne: The court system tends to work better for them than it does for the victims, and mostly because the victims are telling the truth and they’re willing to lie about anything.

June: Sometimes I find myself almost shocked at the stuff they would lie about. It’s almost so obvious that you don’t think they would lie about it. You will be shocked at what it’s like divorcing a narcissist. You don’t think that you’re going to have to prove it wrong. I mean, why would you ever think that you had to prove reality? Well, with a narcissist, you do.

Anne: If you can get away with not proving it by not getting in the argument about reality in the first place, that’s the best case scenario. There’s no way they’re ever going to say, oh yeah, you presented all these facts. Okay, good point. That’s never going to happen.

June: Now that we’re done with custody, I have asked my husband if it is possible at all for us to just reach a settlement in terms of the divorce and property. I filed on grounds and in my state grounds go to fault. I did file a fault divorce as opposed to a no-fault divorce. A fault divorce, if proven, can influence equitable division of property at this point.

Husband’s Sabotaging Himself

Now that it’s been two years, I am more than willing to forego that whole process and move on with my life. Not having to go through all of that to be able to prove grounds and establish grounds and fault. I asked him recently if he wanted to come to a settlement. We don’t have that many things to divide up.

I can’t imagine why we couldn’t come to some sort of reasonable agreement, which is what the courts would do anyway, really divide everything.

He told me, no, I intend to go through the courts for this. The reason is beyond me, and I’m still trying to figure that out. When we start digging into affairs, adultery, abuse, cruelty, when we start digging, we will deposition people. That’ll be people from church, people from his old workplace, people from the community. I imagine that that will bring up things that he probably does not want to see the light of day.

I cannot, for the life of me understand it, I sat here and I tried for about a week to figure out what he is thinking and why on earth he would be doing this, wanting to do that. Doesn’t he realize what’s at stake? Well, I finally figured that because to him, he feels so entitled and because to him, he has really gotten rewarded for lying.

He came into court and told completely falsified story. He really hasn’t felt the consequences of that. I almost feel that his response was also a peek into how delusional his thinking is and how entitled and untouchable he really feels.

No Longer Afraid Of Narcissistic Husband

He has not felt the consequences of his actions. I feel that his response was really indicative of that, that he doesn’t think there will be any consequences.

Anne: Do you think there will be? Are you more hopeful about him having the consequences of the property settlement? Or are you, after what you’ve been through, thinking oh my gosh it’s going to go bad too. Well, it can’t go bad because the worst thing that can happen is they divide everything up equally. He’s willing to spend a ton of money to try and avoid the inevitable, really.

June: Exactly. Let me just cut my losses and get out of this. I don’t want to have to go through depositions. Do you think I want to sit here and go through all of these women? I have no desire to do that, but because now I can kind of see the writing on the wall and I can say, okay, I guess if this is what you’re going to want to do, that’s what we’re going to be doing.

It’s kind of a bluff game. I think for him it is well, I’m going to make her so scared that I’m going to actually do this. In my case, I don’t have anything to be scared about. I feel like that’s a very interesting point, I feel that never, never underestimate reasoning with them. I thought for sure that we would be able to reason and reach a settlement especially when he has things like this at stake.

While divorcing a narcissist their entitlement gets in the way of their self-preservation, if that makes sense.

Hope For The Future After Divorcing A Narcissist

Anne: Yeah, I agree. And they just make really, really poor choices. Wow. Well, we’ll see how it goes. It’ll be interesting to see over the years, especially with our ex’s because we have very similar ones. They’re both very professional. They’re both supposedly active in church. They both show up in the white shirt and tie kind of thing. It’ll be interesting to see over time the consequences that happen.

The good news is, even if we don’t worry about them at all, which is hard because they’re still dealing with our kids. June and I are getting exponentially stronger and more and more firm in our boundaries. The safety in our homes is increasing and we’re healing more and more. We’re finding more peace and safety in our lives. That’s exciting. Any woman can find that even if your ex is not as horrific.

Even if you’re considering whether or not you need to set boundaries with your current husband.

Even if they’re not showing these types of horrific behaviors, you still get to decide, how am I going to think about this? What boundaries do I need to set? How am I going to communicate? All the information that you need to know in order to make really good decisions is in The BTR Living Free and Message Workshops that can take you through these strategies.

This interview was actually years ago, and I’m talking about it now after getting to safety. When I did this interview, I was not completely safe like I am now, but now I’m a hundred percent safe and I use the strategies in The Living Free Workshop.