Unveiling the Hidden Dangers of Opioid Dependence: Why Collaborative Healthcare is Essential

Healthy Mind, Healthy Life

Hello and welcome to Healthy Mind Healthy Life with your host Eric. This podcast is all about exploring the latest research, sharing personal stories, and providing personal tips for improving our mental health and well-being. Each episode will be joined by experts in the field of mental health, as well as individuals who have experienced the transformative power of a healthy mind firsthand. Together, we will dive into a range of topics from managing stress and anxiety to building resilience and cultivating happiness. So join us on this journey to discover new ways to take care of our minds, bodies, and souls, and let's work together to create a healthier, happier world one episode at a time. So let's get started. Hello dear listeners, welcome to Healthy Waves, the live group podcast where we dive deep into the sea of topics with the experts who bring their wealth of knowledge and insights to our discussions. I'm your host and together we will explore the nuances of the mental and the physical wellbeing and also at the same time, uncover the new perspectives and provide the practical advice to help you lead a healthier and more fulfilling life. So. But before we delve deep into the topic, because today's topic is very great, where we'll be talking about from shadows to the serenity, like harnessing the power of your mind to overcome the addiction, trauma, chronic illness, and others. So, uh, but before we do that, uh, I really love to introduce you to all of our guests. So we'll start with Dave. Dave. Maury. So, uh, the listeners, Dave, uh, lives with the bipolar disorder and is the beacon of hope and the humor for many. So as the bestselling author of the OMG That's me mental health books and stand up comic, he teaches others with the mental illness how to find humor in the darkest days. So his journey from hospitalization and homelessness, uh, to becoming a transformative figure in the mental health is nothing short of inspiring. So through his work, uh, Dave shatters the stigma, shares laughter, and offers a message of resilience and recovery. So welcome to the show, Dave. Thank you. Okay. So we'll quickly also introduce you to our, uh, next guest, Micheal Martin. So, uh, like, following a series of life changing events, Michael turned of nature and turned to nature to find that inner peace and heal himself. So after a difficult, uh, divorce, he embarked on a solo backpacking trip that led him to reconnect with the, uh, tranquility and the resilience of the natural world. So his journey of self-discovery and the emotional healing in the wilderness has given him a renewed sense of peace and the purpose which he now shares to inspire others. Also, we have, on the other hand, we have Len Len May. So he is a pioneer in the, uh, uh, medical cannabis industry and the CEO and the co-founder of Endo DNA with over 25 years of experience, Lin has shaped the legislation and culture around the cannabis, and his expertise in genomics and, um, uh, into the system has revolutionized the personalized health and the, uh, wellness. So, uh, his mission is to educate and empower the individuals through the healing powers of cannabis and the personalized medicine. So welcome to the show, Len. And, uh. Uh, Michael. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Lovely, lovely. So to start with, uh, I'll quickly, uh, start with Martin. Uh, so, so, uh, so, Michael, like, uh, to start with, I mean, how do you I mean, how did your solo backpacking trip to the wilderness contribute to your emotional and mental healing after, uh, uh, the phase you've been through? Uh, and what lessons did you learn during that journey? So I think overall through that journey, I rediscovered something that somebody took away from me, which was my sense of self-worth, my sense of self value. And it expanded and really took shape once I learned to embrace the idea of meditation. And once I started working that into my practice of sitting in the wilderness and learning how to befriend myself and befriend the different emotions that I was struggling with, I started to gain a sense of balance and peace and that journey. It's taught me to not only rely on the skill set that I've learned throughout life, but it's also taught me to be open to the different examples that I encounter within the living world around me. Okay. Okay. So, um. Okay. Thanks. Thanks for sharing. Uh, this. Michael. So, uh, I'll come to the, like the, like, uh, uh, so exploring the humor in the healing, uh, if you can share with us, like, how the humor became, uh, pivotal tool in your recovery journey and also, at the same time, how it can transform the lives of those with the mental illness. Um, I had a breakdown in in 1996 and from 1996 to 2010, where my last years, my dark days, uh, suffering in silence. Um, just hiding from from everyone. And then in 2010, I took a stand up comedy class for folks with mental illness, and it changed my life. Instead of, uh, me having the thought and, uh, about a past trauma and reliving that experience, I started to look for the humor in in those triggers, those things that would trigger those, those, uh, memories and, and take me to those darkest places. And once I started doing that, it again, it changed. It changed everything. I, I when the trigger happened, uh, I no longer went to those dark places. I looked for the humor in it, and, like, Lynn was talking. You know, Lynn's talking about cannabis. And I have a cannabis joke. When, uh, when cannabis was legalized in in Oregon, uh, we got a new airline. It's called Air Cannabis, and they don't charge it by how far you go, but by how high you get. So you know, it does a couple things. One, it it it, uh, made a huge difference in my life. And then I teach standup comedy to others, and I see the same transformation in them. And, you know, I'll be able to talk a little bit about that. Um, but it it also helps shatter the stigma. People, when people find out I'm bipolar, uh, you know, they tend to back away and, and actually run away as fast as they can. But by including some humor, it humanizes me. It makes it so much less scary and helps shatter the stigma. Lovely. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing. Yeah. So I'll come to Len. Um, so after that joke. Definitely. So, uh, we'll, uh, so regarding that personalized health through the, uh, genomics, uh, if you can, if you can share, I mean, how, uh, know DNAs technology harness the power of DNA to provide that personalized, uh, health recommendations and how this can be beneficial for the individuals who are dealing with the chronic illness. Yeah. I just want to say that Dave and I got the orange memo, and I think Mike didn't get the memo, so we're, uh, we're we're very coordinated today. Uh, so, uh, I didn't check my email before this. My apologies. Yeah. I'm sorry. Uh, so I wanted to, uh, kind of take a step back and really explain to people. And I really appreciate everybody's sharing their personal journeys, because that's what it is. Uh, we are all individuals, and we all should be treated personally, individually, and not like one size fits all. Uh, medicine and wellness. That's what. That's how we treat it today. And, you know, focusing on the root cause of something instead of addressing with a pill or a shot. So I just want to say, you know, I always focused on we started with the endocannabinoid system. That was that was my goal because I was noticing I was a dispensary owner at the time, had five different dispensaries under the same brand, uh, in Southern California. And, uh, I was noticing that people would consume the same chemical variety and have a completely different experience. And the first thing I did, I focused on a plant genomics. So doing genetic sequencing in the plant, we named this plan different names, but it really doesn't mean anything. It's what the components of the plant are that you're putting in your body. So once I started realizing that, I started looking at the human genetic side and merging those two together, not defined. You know, what is the ultimate plan? It's to help people avoid or mitigate possible adverse events. So now your DNA is your personalized roadmap. So this is your human, uh, G.P.S. system. It shows you where your own personal potholes are in your road. Where is there your own personal traffic jam. So if you're aware of this, it's empowering because you can then, uh, create lifestyle, uh, modifications to be able to avoid those possible personal potholes along the way. So the way that it works is, you know, we have a it's a saliva based test you swab into your cheek or your register because we're a hippo, we're GDPR compliant. It's medical data. You send it over to our lab, we'll sequence that and genotype that and provide you a report. So like I said, uh, it's it's focusing on your endocannabinoid system first. But now we expanded the whole genome and we're providing precision, uh, wellness and precision therapeutic, uh, suggestions across the board. So we have like, uh, for women. Uh, female hormone health. So looking at predisposition and menopause. Perimenopause post menopause. Extremely helpful to women who have a predisposition to something that they can actually turn off the genetic expression by taking certain things in advance. Also, it helps their significant others because we had a lot of calls from husbands and boyfriends saying, thanks, you saved my marriage because I don't have to deal with my wife going through certain, you know, genetic challenges based on her menopause. So we have a male hormone health, we have neutral genomics or personalized supplements and, and, uh, and vitamins, etc., skin, etc., even even canine, uh, for dogs. But the concept is you book an the experience starting with DNA, giving you a suggestion, then being able to have a feedback loop on how is that working for the individual and using AI to be able to start creating predictive inferences. So the next person that comes into a healthcare professionals office, you can say, you know what, there was 100 people that were similar to your genetics that took this protocol and showed that it was efficacious, that it worked for them. And that's the way, you know, you really building personalized precision health and wellness and medicine. And, Mr. Minister, thank you for sharing this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Yeah, exactly, exactly. We talk about it. I don't want to step on anybody's toes because you're moderating this. But you talk about, you know, addiction. You talk about mental health and all of these things. Well, I just want to make a couple of statements. Number one, there's a very large percentage of human beings that have a treatment resistant gene. So we have these, uh, you know, antidepressant, anti-anxiety medications. We go to a psycho pharmacologist. They look at us, they diagnosis, and they say, all right, here's your medication, here's your SSRI, etc. well, guess what? Maybe close to 30% of the population has a predisposition to treatment resistance. So they're going to get their pill. It's not going to work for them but they'll get all the side effects from that. So why are we not making that standard practice to be able to do that? Additionally, you know, we work with a lot of pain management specialists, and, uh, there's one quarter of the population has a predisposition to opioid, uh, dependence. So we're giving people opioids without understanding that by giving them the opioid, you can actually turn on the expression of the genetic predisposition and get them to be dependent. Not everybody. But if there's four of us on this, if we all take an oxy. One of us may actually get triggered that, uh, that dependence gene. So these are the things that we have to be extremely aware of as, as us, as patients or as humans and working with our health care professionals. It has to be a more of a collaborative kind of approach to health and wellness, I understand. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for shooting. Yeah. So, uh, I'll come to, uh, Michael again. So, uh, for the power of solitude, if you can describe the impact of it. And, uh, also like disconnecting from the stress of the everyday life, uh, on your mental health. So, uh, if you can share and also, like, how can others incorporate this into their own lives? So when you bring up the word disconnection, I have a very, very strong relationship with that word because it's a trait that I have, and I really rely on the idea of disconnecting and it brought me into the wilderness is something we all do. Now, a part of that that we all face is like the fear of sitting alone with ourselves. We bring the mindful aspect of that out here with you. It almost makes it a little bit more comfortable because you're relying on the power of observation, which is something that we all utilize in our everyday life. And you're able to observe the animals, plants, trees and the way that they move and what it does for me and what I like to point out, the people that I work with is it gives you an opportunity to step away from that story of self suffering that we all tell ourselves that we all caught up in, because it's easy and just watch the environment, watch how things move and how they interact with each other. You can build a new story around which team to correct the story that's holding you back. So it helps you to bring this ability to sit with yourself and connect emotionally and inside while engaging the living world around you and removing that disconnect to build a new narrative and a new story that helps you to get and achieve the goals in it. You know, I think it really builds on the clinical aspect of things, because we essentially work hand in hand and whether we're in the clinical. From the outdoor side. We're still working with that collaborative property, you know, vibrating with the person that's guiding us one or the other or the environment around us. But it all comes back to the fact that we got to believe. We got to believe that the steps and the effort that we're putting into whatever avenue we're pursuing is going to achieve that goal. You know, we talk about the medications and this and that. Well, if we rely fully on somebody to give us an answer, it's not going to be a long term fix. So by bringing these mindful practices in to a nature background, you know, peaceful tranquility setting like this. You're able to speak and listen to that voice of hope inside of you. Okay. Got it. Understood. So, um. Okay, I'll come to Dave. Uh, like, what was the turning point that shifted your control over the bipolar disorder? And, uh, how do you guide others to find their own moments of the transformation through the stand up comedy? For me. You know, manic depression, bipolar disorder is cyclical. So I would go into depressive episodes. And as I got older, the depression, the episodes got deeper and deeper, darker and darker and lasted longer. And the same thing with the mania. It it it, uh, I the fly among the clouds, I'd get higher. I had to think I was the smartest person in the room. And, uh, you know, uh, oftentimes I was I was an asshole. Uh, without planning it, without knowing it. It's just how it came out. And so, uh, through I think what I hear, too, from from Lana and Mike is, you know, for me, taking quiet time, I don't necessarily call a meditation. uh, because meditation for me means I've got to get somewhere to, uh, that quiet place where I really don't have any thoughts or they're minimal. And with bipolar disorder, the anxiety is constant and it's always there. And our minds are racing and loops of negative thoughts that are constant. And so the quiet time gave some reprieve for that. And what would happen would be the things that were important would just bubble up in my head. And I knew, you know, maybe it's two things or three things. Um, but oftentimes, um. One thing. If I could accomplish one thing, um, that was success. And I found I was making lists of, uh, lists of things to do, the things that I wanted to do, things that needed to be done. And I could, uh, it was overwhelming and, uh, created anxiety and worse than the depression or the mania. And when I started making lists of one thing or two things or three things, then I could have success by doing just that one thing, and I could mark it off my list and feel good about it. And then that encouraged me to do the other. As far as a turning point, um, part of it was writing my blogging. I blog for BP, hope.com, and my blog posts have been read by over a million people, and the most comment common comment from them was OMG that's me, you're telling my story and I was writing it. When I was writing it, I was actually telling my story and I was helping other people, but I was also helping myself and and I could see it. So the combination of that and then being able to start looking for the humor in my experiences and, uh. You know those? Those were the things that that started me in a different direction. Also, I've got to say medication helped the medication. You know, you don't you don't, uh, you get cured from having bipolar disorder or depression or anxiety, but the medications I'm making can make it so the the lows aren't quite so low and they don't last quite so long. And the, the high is don't go quite so high and they don't last too long. Uh, but again the anxiety was the worst. And you know, just getting out of my own head, whatever, you know, I was stuck. We were stuck. When we're doing that in our own heads, and we have senses of dread and senses of guilt, and it's just constant. So being able to get out of my head, uh, was just and it was, it was just a little bit at a time, but it was a blessing and helped turn, start to turn things around for me. Um. Sort of minister. So can I jump in there real quick to something that was very important to me. It was the assumption of meditation that you had. You know, it was always had to go somewhere. When I got into meditation, I had the same kind of view as caught in the stigmas of it. Like, you know, you got to shave your head. You got one of those 1998, uh, chant CDs or whatever the case may be. I had to talk therapy session where it was introduced to me. I thought it just like that. Just like you were talking about. And then I went out back and I picked up my crossbow and I started shooting, and I realized that all the different things in meditation that are important the breathing, the slowing your thoughts down to being able to center yourself were a part of my my enjoyment, my shooting. So then I started to be able to transition that into coming out in the wilderness. But what I'm looking at is the fact that we all, in one form or another, have, within our daily processes and our daily routines, some form of meditation, which it doesn't necessarily have to go to a certain spot or a certain destination. It's about the journey, the thought process, just like you were talking about writing things down, how you work through them. That's the that's essentially what meditation is about. It's not about chasing a thought or a direction or even technically sitting still. Nine times out of ten, when I'm out in the wilderness with a group, we're walking. We're focusing on walking meditation. It's simply about channeling your thoughts and being able to look at them, to slow down and bring yourself back into the present moment so that everything else is beating down on you. All that stress disorder and, you know, just disruptions are not what you're focused on. You're focusing on you and how you can overcome each of those. And. It's a staircase essentially in front of you to climb and reach each one of those objectives that you write down on the paper. Yeah. And if I may, I like what you said. And if I sit down and I'm going to meditate and I have a purpose for that, I'm going to work on this aspect of what's going on in my life. It doesn't work when I sit down and just be Then again, uh, I calm and the thoughts bubble up, and then that's that's where I end up at it. Not. Not trying to get somewhere, just allowing my mind to to, uh, help me discover, uh, a pathway. Uh, you know, it's right for me. Absolutely. There's always a unique pathway and a unique, you know, individualized journey. If I was to make any suggestion as to, you know, help you kind of tame that or change that in a different direction at some point, if you were comfortable with it would be the idea of walking meditation. Just simply go out for a walk and kind of focusing on inside of your breathing and setting up the actual movements that you're making, the way that it feels when your foot is the ground, the way. You feel the push against you, or it's within your arms and things like that. And ultimately it aimed at kind of softening all that tension that you're bringing to the table when you try to sit down. Because to me, I get a feeling that there's a lot of the hamster wheel momentum going on within the thought process, and your hand is your outlet in writing it down. If you added another tool into it by being in this walking meditation, I feel like it may kind of summarize things for you a little bit and kind of help you to ease into some of these ideas that we're trying to work through. Thanks for that. Well, it's definitely. A great. So, uh, it is a great discussion, I would say. And also I'll quickly come to Len. Uh, so, uh, so, Len, like what? According to you, I mean, uh, I do the, uh, uh, cannabinoids and, uh, interact with the, uh, uh, endocannabinoid system. Like, what role do they play in managing the mental health and the wellness? Um. I'm going to try to see if I can integrate the answer with some of the things that both, uh, Dave, Mike said, uh, when I was a kid, I was, uh, I would sit in class and the teacher would call my brain. I would have different thoughts. Uh, so it was the daydreaming kind of kid. And at some point I was diagnosed with the attention deficit disorder, which I never thought it was a disorder. I always thought it was my superpower, but they labeled it a disorder. So, as Dave said, you know, for some people, medication works. For other people, it doesn't work as well. You got to find the right one. So I was put on prescription medication. I can't say it didn't work. The goal of it was to help me focus, which it did, but it removed my connection to self. So I had no connection to my emotional sense. And uh, by meeting some older kids, they asked me if I wanted to smoke a cigarette. They actually try to, uh, you know, fool me and put cannabis in the cigarette. So I had an experience with cannabis. I went back to class and the windows are open in my head, narrowed, and I could focus. I never said anything to anybody because cannabis wasn't really supposed to be medicine. It's a drug, you know, uh, at that time. But for me, it became my medicine. So I got off the prescription medications. And I'm not advocating this for anybody. This is my experience. And, uh, you know, and I can relate to what Dave was saying about, you know, your mind is trying to escape in many different things. There's all these thoughts because I have this ad and, uh, you know, meditation for me. I want to take so many different classes. I took transcendental Meditation, all those things. But as Mike was saying, the best time that I quote unquote meditate is when I hike in nature. Stop thinking and I just be. And all those kind of things, uh, start flowing in and your your mind gets clarity. You become a vessel for things to start downloading to you. And now your ideas are much more clear. So there's different ways to meditate. I agree with Mike and nature's huge help with that. But so to go back to answer your question about mental health and anxiety and all that stuff, I think it's important for us to establish what the endocannabinoid system really is and how it works, and then how cannabis sort of interacts with that. We discovered this system in 1992. It's it wasn't that long ago, uh, and it evolved with us. There's a lot of things in our bodies that, you know, through evolution, we no longer use and need. But this system evolved with us. So the main goal of the endocannabinoid system is to maintain balance or homeostasis. The way that it does this, it gets signals from the other systems. So like your immune system, your endocrine system, etc., it sends up the central nervous system, sort of like salmon swimming upstream to your brain. And your brain makes a decision which neurochemicals to be able to secrete to get that system back in balance. So the two that are endogenous means we create those ourselves. Uh, part of the endocannabinoid system are called anandamide. And the word and the second one is two AG. So the word uh, Ananda means bliss and Sanskrit is your bliss. Uh, molecule. This is what secreted. This is when we when we run, uh, we get the runner's high. This is one of the chemicals that we produce that gets, uh, made. So when we consume cannabis, the main the two main cannabinoids. Phyto cannabis means the plant is delivering that. Uh, it's called THC delta nine, THC, uh, or and CBD, cannabidiol CBD. So when the plant grows, uh, and you remove that, uh, that bud from plant, it has an acid molecule to it when you heat it. Uh, it's called decrease oscillation. It drops the acid molecule and it binds to our receptors there in our body. So we have CB1 receptors. They're mostly located in our brain and central nervous system. When we consume THC, it binds to your CB1 receptor and releases anandamide. So that's the way the drug works. When we, uh, consume CBD, it has an affinity for the CB2 receptors, which are mostly located in our immune or digestive system or body, and it releases to AG. So those are the two chemicals, neurochemicals that are released that a lion which is cannabis, uh, helps to secrete. Now going back and answering your question about mental health, etc., so let's say. I'll use Mike as an example, but he seems to be a guy that doesn't get rattled really fast, but I'll use him as an example anyway. So Mike is walking down the street and a car flies out of almost nowhere and almost hits him and he's going to have a fight or flight experience. So some of the things are going to happen is you're going to have a secretion of, uh, neurochemicals dopamine, adrenaline, norepinephrine, cortisol. Now, when he realizes his mind realizes it's safe, there's no line chasing you in the jungle. There's two things that happen. There's the reuptake of those neurochemicals, and then your brain releases new neurochemicals to get you back to balance and homeostasis. And those are anandamide and to AG. So your genetics how they would play a role in that. Let's say that Mike has a predisposition to, uh, stress reactivity. And I know that Dave does this. Why? I want to use him as an example, because he already is diagnosed. Let's say he has a predisposition of stress reactivity. It's a gene called, uh, FH five fatty acid amide hydrolase. Very, very important gene. But we may not know because it breaks down anandamide which is that endogenous endocannabinoids. So if he's breaking down anandamide at a very rapid pace compared to the average person, that cortisol that's in his bloodstream can stay longer. And if the cortisol is staying longer in his bloodstream, there's several things that can happen. Number one, it can lower his pH level, make him more acidic. Your immune system can then over respond to that and create inflammation. So what you may feel is inflammation in your knees anywhere in your joints, knees, hips, elbows, neck, back, etc. if he has predisposition to gut health issues, it can actually turn on the expression of IBD or other gut health challenges. The good news is, by understanding this, you can subsidize what you're naturally deficient in. So maybe take some THC, it'll bind to that receptor and I'll actually squirt more anandamide. On the flip side, if you take a little bit too much THC, it does the opposite. It can actually trigger the stress reactivity, make people feel more anxious. And then if he has a gene for PTSD now can replay that over and over and over. And instead of having a therapeutic benefit, you're actually creating an adverse event. So being able to know this about yourself and take the right amount. So a suggestion would be maybe take higher CBD, less THC. And then to answer your other question. Terpenes are essential oils that the plants produce. Every plant produces essential oils in nature. In cannabis, there's two things. The terpenes give it its smell and also have an effect. So if you're prone to stress reactivity, you may want to turn in profile first. That is calming. So something like Lidl, which is also found in lavender, is a common terpene. The second 1st May be beta carotene, which is found in clove and black pepper, and also in some cannabis varieties, and that is an anti-inflammatory. Works very well with CBD to reduce inflammation. So as you're using THC as an example to reduce the pain, you have your your sort of formulation that is geared directly to you. And then you can find the products that are more identified to you. And two other things really, really quick. This one is metabolic function of dosing. How you dose anything is really important because how you metabolize things are different. The doctor tells you to take two of these. Well why am I taking two? Why am I not taking four? Why is Mike not taking one? He may be a slow metabolism, so understanding how to dose correctly is really important. And the last thing is interactions. So we're taking phyto cannabinoids and we're also taking an SSRI like Davis taking medication. There could be an interaction because at that medication uses the same enzymatic pathway one that can be an inducer, one can be an inhibitor. So you got to look at all these different things to be able to guide people to more personalized experience with anything in especially, you know, uh, fighter cannabinoids like, uh, you know, THC and CBD. Wow. Great way of, uh, explaining. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. And it's really, uh, really helpful. Yeah, sure. So, uh, uh, before, I mean, before we wrap. So I'll quickly introduce, I mean, not introduce, I mean, quickly, uh, I want to ask, uh, one advice for the listeners. Uh, what would it be? So anyone, anyone want to start? Um. I'll start. I think, uh, a couple things is when we are in that anxiety state or that depressive state, we, we, you know, we we're we're oftentimes unable to move or do things and, and go out and interact with people. And uh, I know for me, when that was happening, I, um, I ended up going to the mailbox at night, so I didn't see anybody. Um, but I, I think seeing. You know, and knowing that that these things are going on and having a plan for if we're going to be out and interacting with people, have a plan for, um, what are some topics to talk about? And also to, to make sure that we don't just vomit everything about our personal self that, uh, is, you know, it's important to us and that's what's happening with us. But it's it's it's outputting to somebody else. So, uh, there's two things. Uh, uh, smile, ask and listen. And when we smile and say in our mind that about the person we're talking to, if we say, I love you or I like you, our eyes brighten and a smile comes to our face. And then we ask a question and listen carefully. And, uh uh, that makes a huge difference. And then the other one is an acronym that that I talk to, the folks I work with, with mental illness. And the acronym is wait, wait. And it stands for why am I talking? And knowing why you're talking is good. Because usually oftentimes when we're talking, we're we're talking about ourselves. And once we're talking about ourselves, we're still in our head. We're seeking we're seeking acceptance. We're we're trying, you know, we're trying to be okay and show people or take care. We're pretending. And, um, um, you know, we don't have to pretend if we smile, ask and listen. And if we have an idea when we're going into an event, some of the questions we're going to be asking and we're prepared, then that helps us, uh, you know, again, get a get out of our head and, uh, be aware of the surroundings. And, uh, people like to talk about themselves. So the more we ask and the more we listen, the more people like us, uh, we can go home And we. Instead of saying, I wish I hadn't said that, I'm embarrassed about saying this. Uh, we can go home feeling good that we talk to somebody, we learn from somebody. And, um, you know, that gives us peace of mind. And peace of mind is everything when you're living with, uh, depression, anxiety and mania. Uh, peace of mind is is everything, whether it be whether you get it from walking, meditation or, um, one of my favorite things to do is go to Oregon wine country and sit on the deck and overlook the vineyards and have a small glass of wine. And my mind just, you know, just goes and it's it's it's amazing. Lovely. Great. Thank you. Uh, so, Mike, you want to share? So I think actually I would probably start by raising a very, very valid question that comes to mind. Why are we repressing or fighting who we are and starting to embrace, befriend and grow the experience of who we are? Because, you know, I've come from much different backgrounds, but all three of us are on the exact same mission. What makes that mission look and feel and sound different? The labels and the terminology. If any one of us connected on the street somewhere and we started up conversation, that conversation would flow great. But because we're in this arena right now, we're having these little bit of hiccups back and forth because the stigmas, they are what we stick that fear behind. So if we take time to not only learn about ourselves and embrace their selves, find their voice. And then open our ears and allow for next to us to do this. And we would answer so many more questions, so much quicker, and we would provide so much great help for the people that we're trying to serve. Because I've seen ideas, I've heard points and thoughts in this conversation that I've never thought of from that perspective. But now when I take back and apply them to the story I have sends up a new door. You know, I'm sitting here at a campfire right now sharing stories and ideas that may sound completely different to somebody else, but when they apply them to their to the context of the world they live, it still provides it the same motivation. And I think whether it's in the arena of trying to help someone or just to own personal lives, removing those layers, realizing that we all have a place within the circle, that even is the step that needs to be taken. Okay. Okay. So, Len. Well, I have to agree with my colleagues on here. And Mike said something really profound. Knowing yourself is key. And 99.9% of our genetics is the same. We are all the same. It's that 0.1% that really makes us different. And once we understand those nuances, we can connect with love and kindness with our fellow human on a path that is similar. Instead of focusing on that 0.1%, that makes us different when we're looking to treat ourselves health and wellness wise. We have to understand that that 0.1% nuance is also what can make us different in terms of treatment. So we're not going to be treated exactly the same way all the time with our health and wellness, whether it's mental or physical health. So the thing that I want to express to people is really learn yourself as much as possible, do as much diagnostic work on yourself as possible. Look at your genetics. Look at your epigenetic expression. Look at your gut microbiome. Understand all these things and then actually treat yourself first with love and kindness. Understand that you may have these predispositions, but you are empowered to actually make lifestyle changes according to that. And it's not a sentence. Just because you have something genetically predisposed to it doesn't mean that you're not empowered to make changes. But the more you learn about yourself, the better you can collaborate with people, your health care professionals and yourself. Love and kindness. Exactly, exactly. Lovely. Great, great. Thank you. Thank you so much, everyone, for joining us on this episode of Healthy Waves. And I hope that the listeners, like our discussions today, have provided you with the valuable insights and the inspiration to harness the power, um, of your mind in overcoming the addiction, trauma, chronic illness. So, uh, and definitely a huge, uh, thank you to our amazing guests. Uh, they've Mike Len, uh, for sharing, um, uh, their stories and the expertise with us and for the listeners, I would love to mention, like always remember that, uh, no matter how the turf journey is, there is always a hope. And, uh, there is a way to find light in the darkness. So stay tuned, uh, for more expert discussions on our next episode. And until then, take care and stay healthy. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Great.