Part 2 - From Employee to Employer: Elaine Appleton Grant, Age 60

I Am This Age

Bonus Episode Part 2 with Elaine Appleton Grant! Today Elaine talks about her change journey from working in public radio and at the Wondery network to starting her own podcast production company called Podcast Allies at the age of 57. To my surprise and Elaine’s credit, she barely ever thought about her age when diving into this career pivot. Listen now to find out why she’s proud to be this age!

Elaine Appleton Grant is a longtime journalist, writer, and editor who has worked for public radio in Boston and Colorado. She wrote and produced podcast episodes for Wondery’s “Business Wars Daily” and the “Tulsa Race Massacre” episodes for “American History Tellers.” A few years ago, at the age of 57 she started her podcast production company, Podcast Allies, where they consult produce and train podcasters.

Elaine just launched her own podcast called “Sound Judgment” where she interviews some of the best podcast hosts and producers in the business to better understand how to make compelling content and tell good stories.

Sound Judgment Podcast

Podcast Allies

@podcastallies

@iamthisage_podcast

Transript:

I read on a James Claire Instagram post. James Claire is an author in habit building. If you don't yet know him, that technically speaking, one is only qualified to do what one has already done. And so anything new is always accomplished by unqualified people. And this made me feel. Relieved, empowered, and a little confused.

We all know that most companies looking for new hires have required qualifications, meaning to be considered, you have to have already done the specific job and usually for a substantial amount of time at a similar type of company. So if you are the person trying to do something new, which by Claire's definition makes you technically unqualified, But you've also put the time and the work into learning as much about this new thing as you can without having actually performed the thing at a quote qualifying company.

It's really hard to be seriously considered as qualified. In other words, you're probably not getting that job. So what do we do if we're changing careers? What happens when we've dedicated all of our time to learning something new? We've solidified our passion for it. We've honed the craft, but we haven't had the opportunity to prove our capability at a qualifying company.

Does it cost companies too much time and money to train these, quote unqualified or might their passion, courage, and dedication to learning new things, prove some other measurement of competency? How do we know which one is of greater value? I'm not suggesting hiring a newbie for a leadership role. I'm not actually suggesting anything at all because I don't know the answer.

I'm just wondering how do you really know if someone is fit for a job and what would it cost to reconsider qualification requirements? Hello and welcome back to a very special bonus episode of I Am This Age a podcast proving it's never too late. You are never too old. So go do that thing you're always talking about.

I'm Molly Cider, and this is part two with Elaine Appleton Grants Last week, Elaine Gracious. Lee and Bravely opened up about her past relationship and what it's like to be in her new marriage, and today we get into Elaine's career shift from working at Wondering the podcast Network to starting her own podcast production company, her very first venture in owning a business, and at the age of 57.

If you haven't yet listened to part one, I suggest you go back right now and listen to that first. And now please enjoy part two of Elaine Appleton. Grant, around the same time that your marriage, your previous marriage was, um, ending, you had been working at the public radio station and you lost your job, right?

I did. Um, it wasn't quite at that same time. It was a couple years later. It was, uh, middle of 2015 and I was dealing with a lot of, Kid issues and like some really serious stuff. And there were politics at the station. And ultimately I lost my job, which was devastating because my identity was very wrapped up in being a journalist and working in public radio.

And I loved what I was doing. Uh, and I'd already been through so much in the last couple years that it was one more blow. and it really did that really did a number on my self worth for a long time. And, but what it led me to do, well first I went back to freelancing. I had been a freelance journalist several times over the course of my career.

So it was what I knew to do and I, um, I got a client pretty quickly to do a podcast. So my. Podcast development. And that was starting in 20 15, 20 16. And then in 2019, you know, this sort of melange of different kind of journalistic activities, podcasting, book editing, writing, and, and I did, I had a great podcasting gig that I got in 2018 and did for two and a half years at Wondery, which is, um, now owned by Amazon.

Um, it's, you know, one of the biggest, I didn't realize it's owned by Amazon podcasting platform. It is. They, they were bought by Amazon while I was doing a daily podcast for Wondery writing and producing. Um, a friend of mine asked me if I would start a company with her, and it, it took me a while to convince me, but we did start at podcast Allies in, um, Early 2019.

And you started this at the age of 57? Yeah. Yeah. I was 57 and my partner was 57. You had been working in this industry for, you know, your whole career Yeah. In some way, shape, or form. Um, but you never worked for yourself before? Well, I had, I mean, I've freelanced a lot, right? But I hadn't started a production company.

It does take a while when you have freelanced. It's hard to shift from the mindset of I'm a freelancer to, I'm running a company. You know, it's, it's a different, it's a different mindset, and I would say I'm still on that evolution, even though I'm working. I, I don't employ a lot of people, but I employ a lot of subcontractors.

But I cut you off because you're about to actually ask a question. I'm sorry. Um, I was just going to ask, starting this company, what are the doubts? What are the insecurities about running your own business? Well, first I have to say neither my partner at the time, Lindsay or I ever talked about how old we were, it just simply didn't occur to us.

It still mostly doesn't occur to me. I mean, every now and then, you know, wrinkles, , talking to whatever, talking to me, um, talking to you. Cause we're talking about it and I don't usually say, Oh, and by the way, here's my age, you know, I really don't. Um, so thanks for pushing me because I'm always. Pushing podcasters to be more vulnerable and candid.

This is about the most vulnerable and candid I've ever been on a podcast, by the way. Oh wow. Thank you. Yeah, I hope it's useful to somebody. I'd be curious to know what you think about that, but We'll, we'll get back to that in a minute. Um, What did I worry about? Yeah, And still. And still. Yeah. I mean at the time, you know, we were just trying to figure out like what would this company be and what would it do because there's a million different things you can do in the podcasting industry.

I certainly worried about time balance because when we started it, I was working 20 or more hours a week for wondering producing business worth daily. over time there have been different worries. There were worries that we both had, Lindsay and I, that we had a lot of the same skills, but we were missing some of the same skills.

And I think maybe a partnership works better when you have very different skills that you can bring together. And so we had a lot of fun. We could talk for hours about storytelling and development of content and things like that. But when it came to the business side, it was tougher. We had different energies, different rhythms, different amounts of time, different things that we're pulling at our time.

Uh, so mm-hmm. , you know, partnerships are, I'm, I'm forever grateful because without Lindsay, I would not have started podcast allies. It was her idea, and she's brilliant and sweet. . What happened with that was that she got C and she got it badly and she was out for about three months and, you know, it was very serious in her case.

Scary, serious. And, and when she came back, she said, You know, I, I just don't wanna, Life is short. I don't wanna spend my time this way. and so I bought her out last year. Uh, and we're still friends, but partnerships are hard. I don't remember what the statistics are. I used to work for Ink Magazine, so I covered entrepreneurship and so I've always loved looking at it, watching it, but being one is very different and I think the statistics on partnerships lasting are not ideal.

You know, they can be amazing. Um, and there were many times when I was like, Oh, thank God I've got somebody to ask about this. What, what should I do? Will you take a look at this? And vice versa. Um, and we, you know, we managed different projects sometimes and that was really, really helpful. Our, our company has evolved.

Based on demand. So like we started out thinking we were gonna train people on how to make podcasts, good quality NPR worthy podcasts, which I still do. But very quickly we got our first production client and a big one, and we didn't even know we were gonna be a production company. So I think that happens and, and you know, so my worry now my, some of my worries are the same.

It's how on earth do I manage. It's very exhilarating to have the company grow and there's gotta be a way to manage it. So I'm not working all the time. I'm figured out. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, one second. And this is when I went into a coughing fit and I lost my voice. And so Elaine and I decided to reconvene a few weeks later to finish the interview, which you will hear right now.

How are you? Um, I'm great. My voice is back . Oh, that's really, I'm feeling well. Yeah. What did you have? I don't know, but I ended up having to go on like a very high dose of, um, antibiotics, which I don't love to do, but within a few hours I was already feeling better. But, um, I don't, I don't know what it was.

It was some sort of infection in my throat. Well, I'm glad you're right. Thank you. Me too. So anyway, we left off. Talking about like all the hard stuff that goes into starting your own company. How long did it take you and your former partner to get the company going? Like from the moment she brought you the idea to the day that you got your first client?

It's, it was not that simple because from the moment she brought me the idea, it took me at least a year to decide to say yes. Okay. Because I already. Other work and another business going. And so it was messy. I was like, Oh my God. Two sets of taxes and all that kind of stuff. And, um, but finally, and I can't tell you what it is that made me decide to say yes, but I finally said yes and, uh, Oh, gosh.

It's hard to remember because we really started it very part-time. And so when we decided to actually do something at all, uh, what we decided to do was hold a workshop and, and it was so busy. There was always some reason why we couldn't do it now, and we couldn't do it now, and we couldn't do it now. And so finally we just, we, I remember it was January and we picked a date in February.

We found a venue. We went to see them. We worked at a deal and we got this workshop going in three weeks. We didn't have a website, we had nothing. And, um, we probably got business cards. You know, we, we did everything that, that we needed to do to get this workshop going and, We even created an upsell from the workshop and I think we had maybe eight people there, which was fine.

I mean, we were just trying to do something to get it off the ground, something small, and uh, and it worked really well. You know, we got a coaching client from it. We got some other smaller upsell things from it, and. Just doing a tiny bit of promotion about it. I have to remember, this was in early 2019, so the podcasting world was a little different then.

Um, somebody reached out to us from a big company and said, We're. Gonna do a podcast and can you come in and talk to us? And so we did talk to them. I don't know that we ever got to a proposal stage. I think they didn't really know what they were doing and they had personnel changes, so we didn't actually get that client.

But just that kind of interest was like, Oh, that's interesting. Hmm. We, we thought we were gonna be a training company. We never thought we were gonna be a production company. I think I probably told you that. And at the same time, you know, I was doing a ton of work for Wondery. I think I had mentioned that.

Mm-hmm. , I, um, had a regular, you know, daily show that I was writing and producing business War Daily, and it was before the hundredth anniversary and commemoration, I should say. And, um, it took. It was like six or eight weeks nonstop. I mean, between that and business worth Daily, I was working seven days a week, just constantly.

I had very little time for podcast allies, but I went to Tulsa in April, so this is a couple months after that workshop. And while I was there reporting, I got a message. From, you know, somebody had been following me on LinkedIn who I'd known for 20 years, but I wasn't in touch with saying, My client is looking for a presentation on podcasting.

Can you talk to her? And, uh, so I took like, just a little bit of time out and I talked to this woman and she turned out to be the global head of communications for the Environmental Defense Fund. Wow. And yeah, and, um, and so we wound up doing, Just an hour long presentation for them, but it was for their PR retreat.

So they had all of their comms people, which is like 50 people in different parts of the country and some overseas, I think. And so we did this and we got a call from one of the people. Shortly after that saying, We loved your presentation. Uh, we were doing a podcast based on what you said. We've stopped it.

We wanna redo it entirely, and we wanna hire you guys. And wow. We were like, behind the scenes are like, but, but, but we weren't, this wasn't our business, you know, Like we didn't know what we were doing. And, um, but they were very persuasive. And, uh, so they are, you know, they're our flagship client. So we just launched our fourth season on September 7th.

Oh. And yeah, so that was about three years ago. And um, and that just changed our business. Entirely. Uh, so it was an evolution and it's not, you know, it's absolutely not a straight line from idea to a first client because it took me a long time to wind down my wondery work. It was tough, but it was good to do that.

Yeah, I was just gonna ask, do you think that that was, it was helpful for you to have the wonder? Well, I mean, for one thing, it. Much steadier income. Secondly, we were brand new and we had to generate enough income to pay both of us. So it was very bumpy, you know, cash flow and it still is, but I think it, you know, I mean, it was security.

Wondery is a wonderful company. I loved the work that I was doing. I loved the people I was working with. I had great opportunities like doing the American History Teller series and working on an American scandal, and it gave, you know, it added to our credibility. So there were a lot of, a lot of good reasons to do it.

And then eventually, you know, some good reasons to stop. What have been the hardest parts for you, and what does hard look like for you? Like, . Like for example, do you get angry or apathetic or do you take a day off? Do you hide under your covers? Do you work even harder? Like, what is it? I don't hide under the covers.

That's just not who I am. Um, sometimes I get grouchy if I get tired and I have to watch. I don't get, you know, I. Careful. Um, mostly my grouchiness comes out to me, or certainly my husband is aware of it, even though I try very hard not to let it spill over on him. But I can get tired, I can get frustrated when, you know, when you are, when you're making anything that communicates somebody else's story, whether it's a big organization or a smaller one or whatever.

there are a lot of people involved and there's approval cycles and things like that, and that can, Well, I'll just put it this way. Yesterday I was frustrated and I posted a picture of a camel on my Facebook page and said, just simply, , this is an, this is a horse that was designed by a committee. You know, like that's

That can be hard when you're a creative type and you just wanna create, you know? Yeah. It's, you get so busy with all the, what I call it, the ings, the administering and the budgeting and the planning and the scheduling and the herding of cats and, you know, um, so it's, it's nice. To have something creative of my own to work on.

So I'm launching a podcast called Sound Judgment. Did I tell you about that? Um, you had told me that you were working on your own podcast, and actually I was gonna ask you about it. So I just launched a newsletter called Sound Judgment, the newsletter, all about creative choices in audio storytelling. By the time this releases, I will have launched sound Judgment, the podcast.

And sound judgment addresses the question that probably plague us all, which is what does it take to become a beloved podcast host? And I personally am not answering this question alone, not by a long shot. So what I am doing is I'm bringing. Great podcast hosts onto the show, and together we are dissecting a single episode of their show and looking at the creative choices they made for this particular episode, we'll play some passages.

We really break it down and dissect it because I think that's the most fun way to learn is learning. How somebody else did something that you think is really cool. Yeah. And that's really cool. Thank you. I'm very excited about it. Super excited about it. Yeah. Uh, thank you. It's gonna be so helpful for me.

can't wait to listen. This is what I've been needing and waiting for. Oh, good. But you didn't know it, but I didn't even know it . Um, no. I just like, I just, I'm constantly listening to other interview type shows. Thinking like what are they doing and why did they ask that and how can I ask that? That's how we learn though, right?

As you listen to other shows and you go, Oh, I don't like that. Oh, I love that. What were they doing? You know, What's going on there? Yeah. And it is so fun to talk to hosts. Oh, it does. And I'll probably talk to some producers as well, um, because the show will feature, you know, people who have narrative podcasts, interviews, shows, and people.

Great indie podcasts. I'm not differentiating. It's all about like what's great and so can I ask you a question? Yeah. Do you have a podcast or two that you love, especially where you love the host? So many. Um, tell me your dream guest. Tell me your dream guest for sound judgment. I'm a big armchair expert fan deck.

She. I think that that was a big, he was a big influence on me starting this podcast. I love the way that he interviews. I think he's so smart and there's so much vulnerability on that show. And then I also love how I built this. Oh yeah. Who doesn't love Gera? He's the best. I'm definitely influenced a lot by IRA and how I built this.

Actually. I can hear that. Because you're asking, you know, feeling questions, which Yeah. Often, especially working with organizations, they just. You know, they fill up all the time with process questions. Mm-hmm. , how did you do this? Why did you do that? But not like, but how did it feel when it didn't work? Or you had to push through?

Or how did it feel when it did work? You know, or Yeah. And, and those are the questions that where you really get to the human being. Exactly. Yeah. That's, that's the stuff that's helpful for me because, . Yeah. It's the, the, the doing of the tasks and stuff is like, okay, like you can just read how to do that.

But what about all the internal blocks? , What about the, like for me, when I'm feeling like scared or frustrated or like, what am I doing? This is never gonna work. I need to get up and walk away and like do something else. Or, you know, I have days where I feel apathetic and I have days where I'm like, Nah, I got this.

This is like that. I think a pretty normal progression. But if we don't talk about that, then you know, people might never start anything or try anything new because they don't know that those are normal feelings. And so that's what I'm sort of trying to get to get to the bottom of. Yeah, no, that's totally normal.

And and thank you for, for saying that. I definitely have times where I just have to get up and walk away or I'm, you know, I, I have all of those feelings. I do think it's part. Having a creative life and, um, yeah, who knows? Maybe it's a part of everybody's life and, uh, you know, so I've, I've found some positive ways of dealing with that.

You know, a lot of yoga, a lot of outdoor activity, and, um, like. If I don't get enough exercise, I'm not nice to be around. Uh, and you know, probably somewhat less positive. Like, you know, there's those nights where it's just like, give me a glass of wine. Don't make me decide what to have for dinner, and let's watch Netflix.

And I'm just gonna deal with this in the morning. That sounds right. . Was that reassuring? I didn't wanna sound like, you know, I'm not, I'm not an aunt, I just don't keep working, working, working all the time. Although some days it feels that way. , how did your experience leaving your previous marriage and then finding a new relationship, how did that influence, or how has that influenced how you approached starting this company and how you handle all the hurdles?

all the things. Wow. What a cool question that is. I'm not sure anybody's ever asked me that. That is a really good question. She said buying time. Um, , It's a deep question. Yeah, it's a thinker. You know, something happened just two days ago, which sort of brought me up short and like I said, I was tired and grouchy that day anyway.

And that was, I got a Facebook memory. Of a post that I made 10 years ago that day that simply said, we're finally on the road. And what that meant was my former husband and my son, who was then 10 and I were, had left our home in New Hampshire and we're driving across country to move to Colorado. And I was sort of blown away.

I was like, Wow. How often do you get the opportunity to go? I know the exact day. Here's an anniversary of when my life changed dramatically in every single way. Right. I think, I think there are a couple of answers to your question though. One is that I had, you know, done a lot of freelancing before. So I was used to being on my own.

But that's different than starting a company. It really is. It's very different. And, um, this is a much bigger venture and it's more exciting and the possibilities are greater. I don't think I could have done this had I not gone through this whole experience. With leaving that marriage and then eventually, you know, learning, getting through a lot of challenges and then finding, my husband likes to say our home should be a sanctuary, that anyone's home is a sanctuary.

Well, I can tell you , my last home was not a sanctuary. In fact, uh, what I came to believe was that you have to feel safe in your own personal life in order to take big risks. That's not always true. I mean, look at, you know, Cheryl Stray and Wild, She obviously wasn't feeling safe. She took a big risk for a different reason.

But many of us need to feel safe to take big risks, and I had that. I'd gotten to a place where I largely felt very supported. Like I had a safe space. I didn't feel so safe financially that I was ready to just, you know, jump outta one thing and jump into the next without knowing it. That's why I, you know, a big part of why I kept the other work going.

Um, but, but that was, I'm grateful for that every day. I think the other thing is, I hated losing my job. It was awful. Yeah. But now I look back on it and say Thank heavens, because I'm getting to do all this really cool stuff that I really believe in. That is creative and yeah, it's challenging, but jobs are challenging and, um, I might not have done that, and I know I can get through the hard stuff.

That's partly just being, because you have old . No experience. I've had a few bumps in the road Experienced, Yes. Yeah. Had a few bumps in the road and got through. Yeah, and it is nice. I can, you know, We have this great PR person working with us and she just turned 30 and she was like, What do I do in my thirties?

How do I make sure it's, you know, like, is it gonna be better than twenties? And I've gotta get a lot accomplished before I turn 30 in two days. And I was like, You got time, You got loads of time. And by the way, it gets better. It gets way better. Yeah. It gets way better. There's something about, I don't know, uh, feeling more comfortable in your own skin as you get older.

Mm-hmm. , I feel very comfortable in my own skin most of the time. Not always, most of the time. Yeah. In a way that I didn't before. It's fun. Speaking of that, um, you had mentioned that you had never really considered your age when starting the new company, and I'm just curious. Why do you think that is? I just didn't feel it.

Hmm. I I just didn't, I think I've just never really felt it except for like, you know, those times when you're sick or you know, you go, Oh, you know, there's an acre pain that, where'd that come from? Um, I don't know. I, um, maybe it's, maybe it's subconscious or something, but, My father didn't stop working until he was in his seventies and he had his own business.

I think it just didn't occur to him. You know, it's like, well, why? You know? Um, but I had a stepmother, I, I think I might have mentioned her because she was a huge role model for me. She was dearly, dearly, beloved. Uh, her name was hat. It was short for Harriet, and she died when she was 97. Wow. She probably did yoga up until the time she was 95.

Amazing. She lived alone till she was 94 and she was the most enthusiastic, outgoing, happy person until maybe the last year, year and a half. And, um, she just made you feel like you were the only one in the room when you saw her. You know, like just that you had made her day and. And she was, you know, she was one of the, she was in the very first class of women to graduate with what was essentially an MBA from Harvard.

It was called the Radcliffe Institute of Management. And so it was, Radcliffe was at the time, the Women's College of Harvard, and uh, she was probably 28, 29 or something. and you know, she was just this dynamo. She just didn't think about like, this can't be done. And so I don't know, maybe I just absorbed that or something, but I just, honestly I never thought of it.

Now I think of it . I making you think of it. Well, yeah. Or I'll go to a conference and like everybody, 35 or younger. Yeah. You know, and so I kind of wonder sometimes, like, do they look at me and think like, what are you doing here? Uh, I hope not , but does that do anything? Does that stop you? Does that make you question anything?

Or what happens? Uh, you know, on a bad day? Yeah. On a bad day. . Yeah. Cause you, you know, you always wanna be sort of part of the cool Kids club . It's hard to do that. Absolutely. We all wanna belong. We all wanna belong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, um, there's also plenty of women in this industry who are my age and doing really great stuff and much bigger stuff that I am.

And. . And so of course I spend time with them and um, or just admire them from an, from afar and try to learn from them and yeah. Uh, so it's not, you know, it's not like I'm the only one on a desert island. Right. Of course, , of course, you're not so on a good day, you just focus on. I don't even think about it on a good day, on a good day, I'm just thinking about the work.

Okay. I have one last question for you and then you can go. What has, what do you think all this life experience has taught you about yourself Lately, I've been spending a lot of time thinking about the state of the world, the state of the country, which in my view is, you know, just frightening and wrong in so many ways.

And, um, for years. When I was younger, I, I sort of felt career wise, like I was a square peg in a round hole. I was using skills that I was good at, but I wasn't satisfying my heart. And, you know, I, I was an editor at a computer trade magazine. I was using the skills, but I didn't care about the content and I felt like there was so much.

To fix in the world, but that I hadn't been trained to do that or I didn't know what to do. It was sort of an existential crisis. And, um, over the last six months year, I have really, really embraced that I have a very particular point of view, and it's a progressive point of view politically and. I decided, and it was scary that that's, those are our clients.

And not that you have to be about politics at all, but that I am, our niche is to work with people who wanna make the world a better place. Yeah. . I no longer feel like a square peg in a round hole. I feel like I finally am getting to do exactly what I'm meant to be doing, and I never thought that would happen.

And I think the lesson is I could have done it years ago, but I didn't know. I don't know how I would've. Earlier, because when I look back on the work that I've been doing for years, I've always said this about myself, but I didn't sort of make it clear to myself or to anybody else. And, and I think that's an element of bravery.

You know, it's like, it's a, as a business person, it's hard to say, These clients are for me, and if you're with me, great. I will serve you a thousand. And you, I think you should find somebody else. You know? I can't serve you well, so I get to learn stuff that I care about every single day. It's really cool.

That's so cool. Very, very lucky. Yeah. That's so cool. Congratulations on that. That's awesome. Thank you. Yeah. Um, okay. Where can people find you if they want to make a podcast with you or if they want your coaching? Oh, thank you. It is Podcast Allies, A L L I E s.com. And as I mentioned, we have a new newsletter, so the signups on the website and we have a new podcast.

Called sound judgment. And that will be on, you can find that on all the normal podcast apps and I hope that you'll listen to it and subscribe. Everyone tune in. I will be for sure. . I can't wait. Oh, thank you Molly. You're a very good interviewer. Oh, thank you for asking all these great questions. Um, thank you.

That's a huge compliment coming from you and thank you for answering all of them. I know a lot of them are not easy. I really appreciate it. That's what makes them interesting. . Great. You're very welcome. You're very welcome. Great. Thank you so much and um, I hope we stay in touch.

Thank you to David Ben Perrot for sound engineering. David Harper, the artwork. I'm Molly Cider, your host. I am. This Age is produced by Jellyfish Industries. Thanks for coming and catch you all next time.

A full transcription is available at www.iamthisage.com